The Volokh Conspiracy
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Justice Kagan Asks About Racial Preferences For Law Clerk Hiring
I provide an answer.
During oral arguments in SFFA v. Harvard, Justice Kagan tried to broaden the case beyond higher education. She explained that many "institutions" need to rely on racial preferences to achieve their diversity goals. (Notice how the word "institution" presumptively refers to an organization that pursues progressive goals, for an entity that leans conservative is no longer behaving like an "institution.") During a colloquy with Cam Norris, Justice Kagan asked about judges who hire law clerks based, at least in part of race:
JUSTICE KAGAN: Do you think that if you're a law firm or if you're a judge, if you're a judge and you want to have a diverse set of clerks, do you think a judge can't think about that in making clerkship decisions?
Norris responded that judges can be aware of a prospective clerk's race, but cannot use race to distinguish between candidates.
MR. NORRIS: Absolutely can think about it. The Court's decision in Feeney says knowledge of race is not the violation. It is using it as a factor to distinguish -
But that wasn't what Kagan was asking about. Instead, Kagan was asking if a judge could hire a minority law clerk as a way to signal to the broader public that minority attorneys can succeed as federal law clerk.
JUSTICE KAGAN: I'm using --let's say a judge says I want a diverse set of clerks. That's --you know, I want clerks who would -you know, great on any number of criteria, but I also want a diverse set of clerks. So, over the years, people will look at that and they'll say: There are Asian Americans there, there are Hispanics there, there are African Americans there, as well as there are whites there. Can a judge not do that?
The key phrase is "people will look at that." That is, the public will perceive that the judge is hiring minority law clerks.
I'll come back to Norris's answer in a few moments, but I'll take a brief detour to an argument made by one of Justice Kagan's actual law clerks, Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar. During Prelogar's argument as amicus, she lamented the fact that very few women argue before the Supreme Court. She worried that the lack of female advocates could "cause people to wonder whether the path to leadership is open." That is, people will look at the Supreme Court oral argument calendar, and see women are not adequately represented. She offered this "common sense example." In other words, if there aren't women arguing before the Court, fewer women may strive to become Supreme Court advocates:
GENERAL PRELOGAR: And if I could, maybe I could just give a, I think, a common sense example of that that I would hope would resonate with this Court. The Court is going to hear from advocates in this sitting of the oral argument calendar, and two are women, even though women today are 50 percent or more of law school graduates. And I think it would be reasonable for a woman to look at that and wonder, is that a path that's open to me, to be a Supreme Court advocate? Are private clients willing to hire women to argue their Supreme Court cases? When there is that kind of gross disparity in representation, it can matter and it's common sense.
If I may modify Justice Kagan's hypothetical question, could the Supreme Court, when appointing attorneys to argue as amicus curiae, "think about" race and gender? Could the Circuit Justice who makes that appointment select a minority advocate so the "people will look at that decision," and think that minority lawyers can argue before the Supreme Court? This hypothetical is not so fanciful. In Martin v. Blessing (2013), Justice Alito observed that district court judges "ensure that the lawyers staffed on [class action] case[s] fairly reflect the class composition in terms of relevant race and gender metrics." This practice is extremely common.
To extend the analogy, how many of President Biden's judicial nominees were race conscious? I've lost count of how many "firsts" have been trumpeted in the press releases. The first nominee of X race in this District. The first nominee of Y sexual orientation in that District. And so on. Now I think the constraints on executive-branch appointments are quite different, but the rationales are similar: these appointments are made, at least in large part, to signal that paths to leadership are open to under-represented minorities.
Back to Cam Norris's answer to Justice Kagan.
MR. NORRIS: I mean, I think that's a --that's a --that is a admirable goal. I don't think a judge could implement that goal by putting a thumb on the scale against Asian applicants or giving a big preference to black and Hispanic applicants. I think you need to treat people equally based on race just as you're not going to hold my race against me in judging the quality of my arguments. I think race --racial diversity is important because it's a good metric to make sure our --our --our institutions are equally open. You can certainly be concerned about that. But the question is using racial classification, telling people that you didn't get the clerkship because of your race.
Now, would it be ethical for a judge to hire a minority law clerk to signal that the pathways to leadership are open to minorities? Or could a Justice appoint an attorney as amicus curiae to signal that pathways to leadership are open to minorities? Or could a judge require that minority attorneys serve as class counsel to signal that pathways to leadership are open to minorities? Notice I did not say that these decisions were made because of the benefits that derive from having diverse attorneys. Justice Kagan and General Prelogar's hypotheticals were expressly framed in terms of sending a signal to the public--something for "the people to look at." To be sure judges, like everyone else, can have mixed motives. They can act from a multitude of reasons. But I will not fight the hypothetical. What if a Judge announced that he will hire a diverse group of law clerks to show that minority law clerks can thrive at the highest levels of the profession. Just like Justice Kagan asked:
JUSTICE KAGAN: I'm using --let's say a judge says I want a diverse set of clerks. That's --you know, I want clerks who would -you know, great on any number of criteria, but I also want a diverse set of clerks. So, over the years, people will look at that and they'll say: There are Asian Americans there, there are Hispanics there, there are African Americans there, as well as there are whites there. Can a judge not do that?
The perceptive reader by now should see where I'm headed with this post: can a federal judge use his hiring of law clerks to promote some broader societal goal? Hello Judge Ho.
Steve Lubet wrote a column at The Hill suggesting that Judge Ho's boycott was unethical.
Canon 2B provides that a judge must not "lend the prestige of the judicial office to advance the private interests of the judge." Ho has attempted to do just that, dangling the possibility of prestigious clerkships before future students who abjure Yale, and withholding it from those who disregard his admonition. The Code makes no exception for a presumably admirable personal mission, like combating cancel culture. Judicial ethics prohibit using the powers of office to enforce non-judicial ends.
Would Justice Kagan's hypothetical "advance the private interests of the judge"? Does the hypo pursue a non-judicial end? Is it within the judicial function to hire minority law clerks to signal that pathways are open to minority law students? You might reply, of course! Judges can use their official power to promote broad values like diversity, equity, and inclusion. A similar argument could be made about the freedom of speech and expression. Judge Ho's hiring policy seeks to promote free speech, while Justice Kagan's hypothetical promotes DEIdeology, as I call it. Now you might reply that Ho's policy includes, while Kagan's hypo excludes. Nonsense. Hiring, like university admission, is a zero sum game. Every applicant who is hired means another applicant is not hired. The power to include embraces the power to exclude.
If Lubet is correct that "Judicial ethics prohibit using the powers of office to enforce non-judicial ends," then many judges will need to revisit their clerk-hiring practice. And their requirement to appoint minority counsel. And so on. Fortunately for the judiciary, I do not agree with Lubet's reading of Canon 2B. I think the phrase "private interest" should be read as an interest private to the judge. That is, something that would personally advantage him. Actions that are designed to advance the "law, the legal system, and the administration of justice"--as Canon 4.A.1 frames it--should not be read to promote a judge's "private interests."
Lubet also raised another critique of Ho's policy:
Under Canon 3B(3), a judge must "exercise the power of appointment fairly and only on the basis of merit." This provision specifically applies to law clerks, and it is surely unfair to refuse to consider admittedly "great kids" in an effort to intimidate law school administrators. Hiring "on the basis of merit" should mean evaluating the abilities of individual applicants, unrelated to Ho's disapproval of law school deans or his desire to force changes in the school's operations.
This position doesn't work. Implicit in Ho's policy is a judgment: students who knowingly choose to go to Yale, in light of its failure to protect free speech, lack merit. They made a decision, and that decision reflects poorly on who they are, and how they would perform as a clerk. You may disagree with that judgment, but it is unquestionably on the "basis of merit." There is no ethical violation to see here.
I know Judge Ho has received much criticism. Truly, the boycott has not advanced Judge Ho's private interests--if anything, it has harmed him! It is always easier for a judge to keep his mouth shut. But Judge Ho should be commended for saying the quiet part out loud. How many federal judges hire law clerks to signal that pathways to leadership are open? How many federal judges hire law clerks to virtue signal that they have diverse chambers--especially when they've been accused of being insensitive to minorities? Slogging through the five hours of the oral arguments has reinforced how right Chief Justice Roberts was (for once): "it is a sordid thing, this divvying us up by race." Better to be done with it now, and not in 25 years.
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You know, I was going to observe that Prof. Blackman's last post on this case was surprisingly substantive and thoughtful.
I see he wasted no time regressing to the mean.
Well it's certainly better than the Colleges brief to the supreme court saying that ending affirmative action will chill students speech because, get this, nobody will care about their race:
"Knowing that experiences tied to race or ethnicity will be categorically disregarded, it seems inevitable that applicants would avoid writing about meaningful experiences that relate to their racial and ethnic identities. For those who do not self-censor, colleges and universities would have to direct admissions readers to ignore how a student’s racial or ethnic identity contributed to their experiences or framed their achievements, in the admissions decision. This all stands to chill applicant expression and impede the exercise of academic discretion."
BRIEF OF AMERICAN COUNCIL ON EDUCATION AND 38 OTHER HIGHER EDUCATION ASSOCIATIONS AS AMICI CURIAE IN SUPPORT OF RESPONDENTS.
And it only took you 9 minutes to regress back to your mean.
Really crazy how many people consistently talk about how much Blackman sucks, while having no problem with the other Conspirators.
I wonder what it means??
Well, Baude and Somin seem pretty sensible. Volokh himself I love dearly even though he is crazy, but no more so than most smart people who immigrated into USA from USSR early in life. (Growing up under Soviet rules, which were obviously unrealistic for life, since they put the entire Soviet economy off-the-record, they (the USSR-to-USA immigrants) tend to have this peculiar love/hate relationship with laws and ethics and guidelines of acceptable or inappropriate demeanor. They revere the ideal of law, but also despise it as a tool of corruption, and also have a disproportionate (for USA) fear of its wrath. This is best illustrated by the case of Dina G., another very smart USSR-to-USA early-in-childhood immigrant, who, when she took the SAT, encountered one of those questions they used to have (they've gotten better at vetting the questions) where some ambiguity of grammar or vocabulary leaves two of the choices possibly correct, depending on how you interpret the question, with no obvious way to decide which it is. Most of us chuckled quietly, picked one or the other, and moved on, but Dina raised her hand (as the instructions said to do if you needed to use the bathroom or a water fountain, or had a health-emergency) and started badgering the proctor to advise her how to deal with the situation. The proctor was a semi-literate, less-than-semi-numerate professional security-guard - lower than rent-a-cop - who had no idea what she was talking about. In vain, she tried to explain that she wasn't asking him to tell her the right answer to the problem - that would be unethical - just to clarify what protocol she should follow under the circumstance. Should she write a note to the authors, in the margin of the answer-sheet - which was never read by a human, only fed into a reading machine capable of reading the blackened ovals and determining which choices they represented? Or write a note on the question booklet? Or choose both possibly-right answers and blacken both ovals? Eventually the proctor told her to shut up or he'd report her for cheating and throw her out of the exam-room! She ended up going to Yale and majoring in Computer Science and Math.
That insight makes me feel sorry for Prof. Volokh. It doesn't excuse his regular launching of racial slurs, his hypocritical censorship, his flattery of bigots and un-American boors, his faux libertarianism, his low-grade partisanship, and the like . . . but it might illuminate the motivations underlying the bad conduct.
A lot of these arguments are premised on a false precision.
It's a mistake to pretend that we can accurately rank applicants from 1 to 100.
At best we can bin them into excellent, good, adequate, and inadequate. To make a final decision, you're invariably guessing which candidate will add more value as both an individual and a teammate.
One of those contributions can certainly be, "we think his background will contribute ideas that are otherwise lacking on the team."
In the real world, race doesn't help with ideas. I was, hands down, the most popular officer on my ship. I thought differently. I am as white as the color. I cared. That's was what mattered.
But are you as white as Eric the Red?
Racial policies in admissions have nothing to do with 'ideas.' They don't ask applicants to check 'idea' boxes on their applications. You are referring to the lie that universities - and you - tell to get racial discrimination past the Court. We are not amused.
But that links ideas to some genetic non-thing.
So a poor black will see more about the Constitution's bearing on Blacks? There were no Blacks that drafted the Constitution so they didn't think so.
As a practical matter, judges can hire whom they choose.
True. But the astute reader will note that we’re discussing a hypothetical matter in a S.Ct. oral argument.
So you're saying that an irrelevant hypo shows that Kagan is a good judge?
I loathe her, by the way, the whole military recruiters thing.
No, I’m making fun of you for offering an irrelevant statement that is technically true. The best kind of true!
FFS, even Blackman, hack that he is, clearly acknowledges we’re talking about a hypo. Do try to keep up with him, at the very least.
So Kagan brings up a hypo that, as a practical matter, could never really happen (i.e., a judge's hiring of an elbow clerk being challenged)--yeah, I guess I can't really keep up.
Kagan? She is still my favorite justice. I LO-O-O-O-O-O-O-OVE Hunter-girls!!!!
Can they?
Every year I have to attend a training session about specifications for our vendors. The Federal Government, several States and Cities require us to have a certain percentage of our vendors be companies owned by women and/or minorities. (LGBTXYZ is in the works) If we don't have the required percentages, we cannot bid on their contracts.
Ah! Brings back fond memories. I paid for law school in the late 1980s working as a consultant for an 8A (minority owned) government contractor. Our government contact would tell the company who he wanted to hire, and how much to pay them. They would then tack on maybe 20%, and would then win the no bid, effectively sole source, contract. The government guy latched onto this scheme because he couldn’t hire my first wife any other way. He started trying to do so while she was still in grad school. But her pay just kept going up faster than he could legitimately pay her on his mandated GS salary scale. Until he latched onto this 8A scheme. We were essentially a package deal, and we made a killing those three years. At the end of it, I had a law degree, she had another Masters degree, and we had money in the bank.
So how do they pick the relevancy of a gay woman minority?
Because the very picking would seem to be prejudicial and discriminatory.
(emphasis added)
What is your actual basis for this “presumption”?
Many =/= all. Many doesn’t even have to mean a majority! For example, I would say there are many people over 6ft tall in the US. Probably millions! Yet that doesn’t mean the majority of people in the US are over 6ft tall.
Not all “institutions” even have diversity goals. Perhaps the conservative ones are in this subset of “institutions”.
There are progressive, centrist, and conservative “institutions” by any reasonable dictionary definition of the word.
C’mon, this is a bool and sheet cheap shot. Do better, or we’ll keep laughing at you.
It's easy to rag on organizations that use racial preferences.
Not all “institutions” even have diversity goals. Perhaps the conservative ones are in this subset of “institutions”.
I rather thought that was Blackman’s point. ie if you have “diversity goals” you count as an institution that gets a “Haha – doesn’t apply to me” card from laws banning discrimination. Because your reason for wanting to discriminate is “good.”
But if you have, say, homogeneity goals, or profit maximising goals, or cost minimisation goals, or tradition-preserving goals, or masonic goals, or academic excellence goals, or any other kind of goals then there are no “Haha – doesn’t apply to me” cards to be had.
You have to have a liberal or progressive goal to get one of these penumbral free passes. Other kinds of goals won’t do.
Indeed, not even all "diversity goals" will do either. After all, what is the insistence on an opposite sex requirement for marriage, but a "diversity" goal ?
"Notice how the word 'institution' presumptively refers to an organization that pursues progressive goals, for an entity that leans conservative is no longer behaving like an 'institution.'"
Literally what the hell is Blackman on about here? Can someone who understands right wing grievance culture translate this? Are conservative institutions (police departments, the military, business lobby groups, the Federalist Society, etc.) somehow not "institutions" now?
I'm not gonna rule out "self-indulgent Blackman wankery".
Occam's Razor and all that.
Or "self-indulgent Blackman hater wankery". It's amazing how many commenters are so eager to do nothing except hate on Blackman instead of just getting on with their day. What do you guys do, just keep refreshing all day?
No need. He posts so many bad takes that there’s always always an opportunity to make fun of him. I mean even his daily Supreme Court History posts often contain errors!
To be fair, many of the errors are just re-runs because he and Prof. Barnett seem to lack the self-respect and academic integrity that might incline one to correct the record.
Cool. Now do the people who respond to Somin when he writes about immigration.
People want Somin to write on other things because his stance on immigration is fully known and explored. People who hate on Josh want him silenced for having an opinion on anything at all, or rather every opinion he has they want silenced.
Lol. I don’t want him silenced. I think it’s funny when he posts idiocy. Makes me feel better about myself. I just don’t think anyone in power or media should take him seriously as a scholar or authoritative legal voice.
It’s true - I like to mock Josh Blackman because I know he must be silenced. The powerful force of his arguments stand as a conservative bulwark against my plans to overtake and destroy America.
Definitely not just because he’s a self-important careerist dweeb who thinks he’s some sort of “thought leader” despite being a fifth-rate intellect at a fourth tier school…
Well, I can't speak for other commenters. But I myself am trying to get sleepy enough for a few winks before I go to a 9AM to have my electric-pulse-generator turned on. I had the electrodes for Deep Brain Stimulation for Parkinson's implanted last week. They want me un-medicated, so I'm foregoing my usual meds, so I'm twitchy and stiff and uncomfortable, and punchy as all hell. I tried reading a bit of King Henry IV Part 2 earlier, but there are so many references to chronic illness, to poison also being physic, and so on, that I had to set it aside. For instance:
Blackman complaining about diversity hires is hilarious considering he is Exhibit A of the society-wide preference to give positions of power and prestige to mediocre white conservative males with law degrees.
South Texas College of Law signals “power and prestige” to you?
Prof. Blackman probably financed his waterbed.
He was a Sixth Circuit clerk, has a tenure track professorship, and for some reason people who should know better take him seriously. Like it or not, thats power and prestige. If he wasn’t a white guy with a degree from GMU he’d be a mediocre solo practitioner or doing consumer collections racking up default judgments of debts his client bought for pennies on the dollar.
Love the ad hominem argument.
There’s zero question he’s a mediocre intellect. The dude doesn’t know how the attorney client privilege works, thinks he invented the term rocket docket in the year 2021(!), makes other dumb and misinformed comments about the law generally, and doesn’t seem to realize everyone thinks he’s a hack.
It might be an ad hominem that doesn’t win an argument under the formal rules of logic, but it doesn’t make the characterization of him any less accurate.
"Like it or not, thats [sic] power and prestige."
When he's a federal judge, he will have even more power and prestige. You are going to really love him then.
Good, healthy water, I hope.
Sonia Sotomayor:
All questions of policy are within the providence of Congress first. And
so, that particular question would have to be considered by Congress first. But it'd have to
consider it in light of the Constitution and then of statutes that govern these issues. And
so, that first step and decision would be Congress'.
I can only know that there was a purpose to the structure of our Constitution. And it was
a view by the -- by the founding fathers that they wanted justices who would not be
subject to political whim or to the emotions of a moment. And they felt that by giving
them certain protections that that would ensure that -- their objectivity and their
impartiality over time.
Drivel.
That’s a weird passage to pick. It’s perfectly clear what she’s talking about. And she’s also speaking off the cuff I assume, a lot of smart people aren’t great at that. But I find her opinions readable and well-written.
Anyway one Latina advanced to a position of power through AA doesn’t change the fact that there are hundreds and thousands of more white men advanced beyond their abilities by default. I mean have you ever met state court appeals judges?
"I mean have you ever met state court appeals judges?"
Got me there, but good god, it's a rainbow coalition of incompetence there!!
The passage I quote shows incoherence. The answer, wise [sic] Latina, is that the Constitution provides for life tenure (subject to good behavior). Congress can pass statutes, but a constitutional amendment will be required to impose term limits on Article III federal judges.
Okay. Yeah she obviously rambled a bit. But I understand. Again it’s not written it’s spoken off the Cuff. Terrible evidence of her incompetence or lack of intellect generally.
She was prepped for this. She also said that the Ginsburg dissent would have affirmed her---that's actually not true given the procedural posture of the case. She also obviously apparently doesn't know the difference between de jure and de facto discrimination.
She once got clowned by Toby Heytens at oral argument. She's a dummy. Not a dummy compared to the average bear, but a dummy compared to the average federal appellate judge.
But advanced by who? You are saying 'not by a Latina' -- why not?
Is the goal just to be somewhere on the ladder where you don't contribute ?
AA in this case is like giving a pass to a concert no one wants to attend.
Curious - which concepts in there do you disagree with?
Primacy of Congress to write legislation? That's pretty originalist, when you get down to it:
Three branches of government are a structural choice by the Founding Fathers, and that separation of powers and a Court system purposefully insulated from mob rule is a positive thing? Also pretty fundamental:
Are you letting your admitted visceral dislike for Kagan get in the way of the fact that these are pretty widely-accepted positions, across the political spectrum? Even if spoken, as LawTalkingGuy noted, off-the-cuff. But lacking a scriptwriter and polished delivery doesn't make the concepts "drivel".
C'mon, I'm sure you can do better.
Ope, Sotomayor. My bad.
Hmmm. So we are talking about a provision of US constitutional law, and the first place the learned judge goes is a statute? I guess a statute setting term limits would be necessary, but the first act of Congress (likely, although there are other means of doing constitutional amendments) would be to pass a draft amendment for ratification.
As Niels Bohr said--it isn't even wrong.
Wasn't that Pauli ?
Anyway, what's this "providence" thing ? Does she mean "province"?
More correctly, having some understanding of incentives, they signal that new paths to leadership have opened up, and self-identifying as weirdly as possible is a good career move.
Is Judge Ho still a gay-bashing bigot?
Is he still using the federal clerk system as a taxpayer-funded affirmative action program for obsolete clingers?
> To extend the analogy, how many of President Biden’s judicial nominees were race conscious? I’ve lost count of how many “firsts” have been trumpeted in the press releases. The first nominee of X race in this District. The first nominee of Y sexual orientation in that District. And so on.
Mr Blackman, look at it this way: after getting all the “firsts” out of the way, there won’t be any more to tout. Maybe then it’ll return to judging individuals by the content of their character? (Did that ever happen?)
Why, when Republicans and conservatives are assessing character, do they so reliably choose white and male candidates?
Other than the obsolete bigotry, I mean.
This is no problem replacement is not already solving.
Carry on, clingers.
The goal is that someday all people assess others rightly so it is best to start with those Republicans and conservatives ...unless your goal is really to exterminate them. That's where my money is. You are not liberal, you are a hater with a hit list. Am I getting warm ?
Extermination would be repulsive and immoral.
I am content to await the predictable, welcome replacement -- in the ordinary course, as bitter old clingers take their stale, ugly thinking to the grave in the natural course and are succeeded in our electorate and population by better, more moral people.
Let me introduce you to neo-pronouns. There will never be an end to firsts.
"He" + "Yo" = "Ho"?
and yet his foreign policy experts and advisors don't seem to have many Catholics or Irish or Italian so much for diversity Corn Pop. Many seem to be of eastern European or Russian ancestry and have some weird Czar obsession it seems.
Then we move onto to bragging about the “seconds”:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/07/12/president-biden-names-twenty-first-round-of-judicial-nominees/
The flaw in that reasoning, which the Democrats can't ever seem to grok is that the signal is the exact opposite. It signals they can't succeed unless there are racial preferences and quotas.
Is it a plausible interpretation that hiring a non-white law clerk could instead signal "in a group of extremely well qualified candidates, a white male isn't the one who is always chosen, as was the case for about the first 200 years of the USA."?
Look, this isn't complicated.
You can hire a white law clerk, or you can hire a political law clerk. Those are your two options.
Also, the white law clerk better be a man, or they're a political law clerk.
Oh, and they have to be straight, or they're a political law clerk.
Oh, and they better be some flavor of Christian or they're a political law clerk.
It's simple.
I don't know if this zinger was intended to be some sort of gotcha, but when the article itself is referencing the fact that Kagan is asking whether a person can hire a minority in order to ADVANCE A POLITICAL GOAL, most likely in order to provide cover for affirmative action, it feels a little silly to attribute making everything political to the people who generally disfavor the idea of making decisions for political reasons.
It's rather an significant issue, and one that seems not to really be understood.
You can hire whoever you want as a clerk. And if they happen to be white or black or man or woman, that's fine and whatever.
But if you're selectively picking out a minority BECAUSE they are a minority, then you undercut the entire logic that the minority can succeed on their own merits. You make it appear that they are only succeeding because they were selectively picked out. And then later, people say "well you only got this position because you were this minority, not really on your own merits".
I think they do grok it ... and it is intentional projection.
Progressives project their own racist views on the world, and guiltily insist that they need correction and self-flagellation. They cannot envision a world where obvious minorities succeed on their own merit ... even though that is exactly the history in the US, from Irish to Italians to Jews to Asians.
Did you read the commenter who called Justice Jackson a barking monkey last week? Or hear folks say that Sotomayor is nothing but a stupid affirmative action hire?
You can play pop psychology games all you want to find the subsumed liberal racism. And whatever other evils you want to see in those who like policies you do not.
Or you can read what plenty on your side say.
Those types of people are no less prevalent on “your” side (see comments about Justice Thomas, or any black person who dares to have non-Democrat views).
PS, not all criticism of a person is racist. Surely you can do a better job separating the wheat from the chaff.
Did you read the commenter who called Justice Jackson a barking monkey last week? Or hear folks say that Sotomayor is nothing but a stupid affirmative action hire?
No, I didn't see the "barking monkey" comment, and agree that it is not acceptable. But, calling Sotomayor a diversity hire? That's just pointing out the obvious.
"Did you read the commenter who called Justice Jackson a barking monkey last week? "
Oh, nutpicking is good now.
random commenters on a blog are a meaningless statistic, that you automatically assume what race and political leanings pretty tells your story completely.
Look at it this way, unless you see a known quantity expressing such views always view such comments as either internet bravery or outright trolling.
The stream of bigoted and bigot-hugging comments at this blog is steady, and it begins at the top.
Don't flatter yourself ...
"So, over the years, people will look at that and they'll say: There are Asian Americans there, there are Hispanics there, there are African Americans there, as well as there are whites there. Can a judge not do that?"
"Kagan was asking if a judge could hire a minority law clerk as a way to signal to the broader public that minority attorneys can succeed as federal law clerk."
This is nonsensical on its face. Person X is a minority and succeeds or person Y is a minority and fails. This is no more or less relevant to other minorities than if somebody with detached earlobes or type AB- blood succeeds or fails at the Supreme Court level. To the extent that anybody draws conclusions from this, it's only racists who attach far more importance to the concept of race than it could possibly deserve, also known as racists. So Kagan is arguing racism is justified because the result will be to satisfy racists. SCOTUS, and for that matter Harvard, should just issue public statements that the success or failure of Person X has no bearing on your ability to succeed regardless of the fact you may share some genes in common with them. Which everybody, except racists, already knows.
This is no more or less relevant to other minorities than if somebody with detached earlobes or type AB- blood succeeds or fails at the Supreme Court level.
This isn't true. The effect of "seeing someone like me" in a given space does contribute to people's decisions whether to even make an attempt to join that space.
The question is, to what extent, if at all, should such a space (or governmental forces) attempt to force inclusion, via affirmative action, quotas, etc. Some people say that the answer is "Not at all." Some people say that the answer is "to the greatest extent that they can."
But you have to be trained to think that the reason you don't see yourself in a group is because you identify yourself first and foremost by a particular trait and then that the reason said trait is not present is because of structural forces that will exclude you if you try. But if you instead identified yourself by other traits that you do happen to share with the "in-group" (instead of race maybe it is interest, passion, hobbies, height, literally any other trait that you do share) then you wouldn't suffer this sense of exclusion.
It is learned. To stop people from feeling it where it isn't truly present you stop training people to view the world that way. Does racism exist? Yes... and in a case of it you call it out. Does a lopsided make-up of a group ipso facto mean racism though? No... so to train people to think this way causes them to pre-judge others as racist (or whatever other -ist) based purely on the trait in question.
"signal to the broader public"
Most lawyers don't care about clerks, the part of the "broader public" that even knows about the role of such clerks is microscopic.
Regarding Judge Ho's policy, I disagree with your assessment of Canon 3B(3) because it's clearly a proxy when the judge publicly discloses the existence of the policy and reason for it. Practically speaking, could a judge avoid scrutiny by "reviewing" an applicant's credentials and using that to justify what was actually a predetermined rejection? Sure. Although it might be dishonest, it would most likely work.
But it's an entirely different animal to publicly state that you won't hire any students from the No. 1 ranked law school without any examination or consideration of the individual applicants. At its core, a blanket decision that all YLS students "lack merit" is not an informed judgment; it's using a farfetched stereotype as the primary disqualifying factor against students to exert pressure on YLS administration.
Look, I don't have a dog in this fight. I didn't attend YLS. I believe in free speech. I don't agree with the way YLS has handled things and think change is needed. But to quote Seinfeld, Judge Ho already said spite, and I think that should mean something.
I disagree with Judge Ho. But while I think it’s bad policy, I would hardly say he’s acting in a purely private capacity and not because of what he thinks, and in a broad sense is, the public interest. To say a policy is a matter concerning the public interest is very different from saying it is in the public interest. I don’t think that speed limits of 100 mph in residential zones are in the public interest. But the question of what the speed limits should be, and any answer anyone gives to that question, is ABOUT the public interest, whether I agree with it or not. To say everyone who disagrees with me is acting from private selfish motives is rhetorical nonsense.
I was taking issue with Josh’s claim that Ho’s policy doesn’t run afoul of Canon 3B(3), which states that judges must "exercise the power of appointment fairly and only on the basis of merit.”
Josh argued that Ho’s policy could reflect his belief that YLS graduates automatically lack merit and are untrustworthy simply for having knowingly “sold out” to go there and that this unquestionably a judgment on the "basis of merit."
I disagree and think it’s an unethical boycott under the rules for the reasons I stated above.
One thing no one seems to be addressing is: Judge Ho is clearly positioning himself to appeal to a future post-Trump Republican president. Like Blackman, he (Ho) dreams of higher appointments, and he hopes that the future president will appoint him as a way of "owning the libs".
Ho is a superstitious, stale-thinking, gay-bashing bigot, and therefore a natural candidate for any judicial nomination by a Republican president.
Carry on, clingers.
Suppose a judge is interested in law clerks who spell correctly. Opinions do not have to be spelled correctly as long as they are understandable. Is such an interest a purely private interest?
Indeed, judges don’t really have to know much about the law either. As a matter of raw power, they can simply order however their gut feels. Is this whole business of thinking about the law as a subject of knowledge and scholarship a purely private interest, as distinct from a public one?
If judges’ interest in what they think is best for their profession and office can be considered a public as distinct from a purely private interest with respect to these matters, why can’t their interest in racial diversity be considered a public one?
As with abortion, pretty much only extreme partisan hacks would claim state officials have no interest at all in the matter. Pretty much everybody accepts there’s a rational basis and the question is whether you need a heightened interest (and possess one). I would say more people have argued that any interest in abortion is a purely private matter than would claim the interest in racial diversity in public institutions, good policy or bad, constitutional or not, is purely private.
I think the sharper argument would be to follow up on Ogelthorpe. Ogelthorpe held that the state has no interest at all in diversity within families. Not that there is a fundamental right trumping the state’s interest, there is no state interest at all, it’s just animosity. Indeed, where families are concern, constitutionally meaningful diviersity only exists across institutions. A society where some families were same sex and others not is a more diverse society than one where all families are diverse. Seeking diversity within intstitutions rather than across them diminishes diversity. It does not increase it.
Why should schools be any diffferent? If there is no rational basis at all for thinking that having a diverse family is better for children, why in the world should there be any basis for thinking diversity within a school of any value? Indeed, why shouldn’t courts focus on diversity ACROSS schools, on a society where some schools are same-sex and some opposite-sex (etc.), so that the types of institutions, not the individuals within those institutions, are what really matter.
Children and young people don’t change their fundamental biological and psychological make-up just because they cross the door and go from home to school. How can what is so obviously irrational, irrelevant, indeed a proxy for animosity (irrational hatred of same-sex institutions), indeed a phobia when children are on one side of the door, suddenly a compelling interest on the other side? If it’s so irrational, such a phobia, in domestic life, why does the constitution itself suddenly hate same-sex (or monochromatic) institutions and those who prefer them when it comes to schools? If Ohelthorpe is correct about this, why should “diversity” be considered anything more than a dog whistle for educational homophobia? Why shouldn’t the arguments that any interest in within-institution diversity is nothing but a form of hate also apply here?
Kagan sounds perfectly reasonable to me. If a Justice were to refuse to hire Jews because they are already over-represented at the top of the legal profession, where's the problem?
Why would this even come up? Sunk costs are irrelevant as is any factor other than your merit. If that means only tall men with red hair make it on the SC..who cares..
White with the little "w"? Why is that? As for Justice Kagan let us go where your logic will take us.."white" is made up of a great many "groups"..one is Jews who are overrepresented in Ivy League, the Media, Academia and other sectors and another Italians who are underrepresented in the same sectors..for "diversity" sake should we have Italian quotas and should we have affirmative action programs to reduce the number of Jews in these sectors? Or do we get the govt out of this and if say the NBA is made up of 99% AA, we accept it as the beauty of a free country and liberty? These colleges should use the SAT scores..period. The best get in..regardless of race, creed or color or gender..if that means 100% of the undergraduate class at Harvard are Asian Americans..god bless them..America at work!
A hypo:
Suppose we have a judge who has absolutely NO PREJUDICES for or against ANY race, ethnicity, national origin, gender, sex, religion, non-religion, age, law school affiliation, or ANY other characteristic than the ability to perform the duties of a law clerk. Shouldn't we be comfortable that such a judge will hire a mix of clerks of various races, genders, etc., including African Americans, women, gays, etc., when candidates with those characteristics are the best qualified? And if you AREN'T COMFORTABLE with that conclusion, is it because you don't think there aren't enough qualified candidates with the racial, gender, etc., characteristics you're interested in?
NOTE: This hypo doesn't allow you to assume that the judge is prejudiced against some group you favor. The judge is UNPREJUDICED.
Thornton Mellon knew where your ostensible judge is on the bench.
Here is the longer version, worth watching . . . as is the entire movie.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/01/politics/second-amendment-opinion-supreme-court-judge-carlton-reeves
This is what happens when you put blacks in positions of power.
It is no wonder that a supreme court justice might believe that it is important to create the appearance of diversity within their clerks, as the person hiring the same SC judge, the POTUS, has declared that he would and then did hire expressly on the basis of both race and sex.
With respect to gender, so did the last POTUS. Is this such a scandal?
Uh... more dumb Josh drivel. Kagan wan't proposing to boycott white male clerks, which would be the clear analogy.
Or put differently, would anyone care if Judge Ho decided to quietly seek out qualified conservative clerks, clerks from conservative law schools, or clerks from law schools that FIRE especially approved of, in order to demonstrate to the public (including prospective law students) that a path exists for that kind of ideology?
No. No one would care.
The perceptive reader by now should see where I'm headed with this post: …
I’ll admit that I did not anticipate this veering yet again into Ho sycophancy with a lazy whataboutism. I should have expected that.
I don’t like Kagan’s hypothetical, and I don’t like affirmative action as a solution for systemic racism. But I fear that setting constitutional constraints around the practice - constraints rooted more in conservative ideology than in history or text - will just further entrench that systemic racism, while further undermining the Court’s legitimacy.
“No State shall … deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
“No person in the United States shall, on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.”
Seems like a pretty solid textual hook to me?
Let me properly reframe the question:
Can I hire based upon outward appearance and characteristics to keep up my window dressing virtue signaling?
I wonder if a better question is should Justices select clerks from a broader group of law schools. The elite schools are under scrutiny because of the opportunity the school brings to the graduate. Maybe if the attorneys arguing cases before SCOTUS, the law clerks, and the Justices themselves came from less elite schools, the questions of admissions would not be as important as it is now.
"And I think it would be reasonable for a woman to look at that and wonder, is that a path that's open to me, to be a Supreme Court advocate?" - You can tell what he thinks of women. Weak, easily dissuaded, intellectually inferior.
In the Washington Post, Georgetown University law professor Paul Butler noted, “Ginsburg’s progressive jurisprudence on racial justice doesn’t show up in her own chambers.” Explaining "Ginsburg ... has hired only one African American law clerk in her 25 years on the Supreme Court. This is an improvement from her 13-year tenure on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, when Ginsburg never had any black clerks. When this issue was raised during her Supreme Court confirmation hearings in 1993, Ginsburg said: “If you confirm me for this job, my attractiveness to black candidates is going to improve.” This remains a promise unfulfilled. . . ."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ruth-bader-ginsburg-can-learn-something-from-brett-kavanaugh/2018/10/15/b8974a86-cd77-11e8-a360-85875bac0b1f_story.html?utm_term=.51c16a277d34
That is rather rude to refer to Elena Kagan as "Judge Ho". It is not known that she is even heterosexual.