The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Arbitrariness of Racial Classifications Gets Attention as SCOTUS Considers Affirmative Action
I did not time my book on racial classifications to coincide with litigation over affirmative action. Indeed, the book is not about affirmative action, and much of the book has nothing directly to do with it.
Of course, though, it turns out that you can't talk about the post-World War II history of government racial classification without affirmative action coming up, because that's both where it's more controversial and where almost all the cases addressing individual claims to minority status arise. And it turns out the racial (and ethnic, given that "Hispanic" is officially an ethnicity, not a race) classifications used by universities in the affirmative action context were never intended to be used for "diversity" purposes, and don't really fit the diversity rationale dictated by the Supreme Court as the only valid reason to use race in admissions. (I have no idea what Harvard would say if asked why, say, the five hundredth Mexican American in its freshman class would be deemed to officially add diversity to its class, such that it keeps track of such numbers and officially touts them when promoting its diversity, but the first Hmong, Afghan, Laplander, Mongolian, Turkman, Icelander, or Bobover Hasid would not; I doubt it would be anything terribly coherent.)
In any event, the book happened to come out in July, and I also filed an amicus brief with the Court in the Spring (authored by attorney Cory Liu) explaining why, based on the research in my book, the classifications Harvard and UNC use are wildly arbitrary--really, over-inclusive (white Spanish immigrants get a benefit for being "Hispanic"), under-inclusive (members of the groups noted above are officially "White" or "Asian American" and at best get no benefit for adding diversity) and ultimately irrational (why are Pakistanis and Filipinos, who have nothing in common beyond what any two random groups of human may have in the same Asian-American "diversity" category?)
This argument is quite different than the usual debate over "reverse discrimination" and "inclusion." I suppose the fact that it adds something new to an old and somewhat predictable debate explains why it is has received significantly more attention that I had any reason to expect.
Most prominently, the Wall Street Journal's Weekend Interview on Saturday was devoted to an interview with, well, me. It starts:
The U.S. Supreme Court will consider on Monday whether racial preferences in college admissions are illegal. David Bernstein argues they're irrational.
The argument at the high court is that Harvard and the University of North Carolina unlawfully discriminate against Asian-Americans to hold down their numbers and ensure a diverse student body. But what does it mean to say "Asians" are overrepresented on campus? Presumably elite colleges don't have hordes of applications from America's roughly 27,000 Mongolians. "Imagine you are a child of Hmong refugees," says Mr. Bernstein, a professor at George Mason University's Antonin Scalia Law School, referring to an ethnic group from Southwest China and Southeast Asia. You might hope the admissions officers see you as contributing to diversity. "They say, 'Oh, no, no, you're Asian.' But this Asian thing is purely a statistical construct"….
As for Harvard and UNC, the Supreme Court said in Bakke that the only legal rationale for racial preferences in admissions is to ensure campus diversity. Yet clumsy Directive 15 terms are all over the current parties' briefs. Schools use those labels in reporting data to the Education Department, Mr. Bernstein says, which might be why admissions offices follow them off a logical cliff.
"When has anyone ever sat down, including Harvard and UNC, and explained why these specific classifications, made for other purposes, are coextensive with diversity?" Mr. Bernstein asks. "One of the claims against affirmative action used for diversity purposes is that it's a stereotype, that all X are the same." No one actually thinks "that Indians have anything in common with Filipinos, other than this arbitrary geographic classification."
CNN's story yesterday on the pending cases notes:
David E. Bernstein, a University Professor at George Mason University's Antonin Scalia Law School also supports SFFA. He calls into question Harvard's racial categories, deeming them "arbitrary and irrational."
"Harvard cannot explain why roughly 60% of the world's population should be grouped together as 'Asian" despite vast differences in appearance, language, and culture," he added.
Education Week also highlighted the brief in its article on the cases:
Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr., who has been skeptical of race-conscious government actions in education and other contexts, wrote in a 2006 redistricting case, "It is a sordid business, this divvying us up by race."
A provocative brief filed on the side of challengers to affirmative action focuses on some of the details of the "divvying." The brief raises questions about the racial and ethnic classifications used in American education…. Harvard and UNC classify students based on five racial categories: (1) Asian; (2) Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander; (3) Hispanic; (4) White; (5) African American; and (6) Native American, says Bernstein's brief.
The categories are not unique to those schools, as they match the classifications used by the U.S. Department of Education, though the federal government has also offered "two or more races" in Census forms and other surveys for years now. Bernstein says these classifications stem from a 1970s effort by the federal Office of Management and Budget to standardize race and ethnicity data collected across the federal government.
"The racial and ethnic categories that Harvard, UNC, and universities across the country use in their admissions policies were created by executive-branch bureaucrats who specifically warned that they were not scientific or anthropological in nature and should not be used to determine eligibility for benefits in race-conscious policies," Bernstein's brief says. "The categories are imprecise, over- and underinclusive, and are not narrowly tailored to achieve educationally beneficial diversity."
There have also been other news stories and op-eds that have highlighted the arguments the book and the brief, but I won't tax readers' patience by citing them.
The remaining question is whether any of the Justices will express interest in the classifications at oral argument today and ultimately in their opinions, or whether the debate continue on its previous trajectory, accepting the classifications as a given and only discussing whether diversity is a compelling government interest and what universities must do to satisfy that compelling interest.
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This stuff has a larger societal impact--kids feel the pressure to do all sorts of volunteer stuff--why isn't being a good student enough? And what if the extra-curricular activity isn't the right kind? I'd suspect that working for Rand Paul wouldn't be a plus.
Remember what happened to that aspiring UT student who got outed for saying the n-word all by herself. 1A much? Admissions people aren't perfect, and they get to play around with race?
I’d suspect that working for Rand Paul wouldn’t be a plus.
I don't think that's right; working for a Senator is going to be a value add, regardless of the politics.
Riiiight, cause playing the naive card has worked so well for you before.
Bare accusations of bad faith add little to the conversation.
Neither do bare assertions of opinions.
That's an interesting take on this comments section, which seems to be mostly about opinions.
Though good news! Below you will find I provide both personal experience and even link to evidence (albeit of a trivially easy to prove point).
My cousin’s daughter just got advice from a very experienced college advisor to downplay her participation in a very prestigious program and her activism on a particular issue because they wouldn’t play well with progressive admissions officers at elite schools, and they are all progressive. So, still a plus—he said downplay, not delete— “but much less of a plus than if she would not be adding ideological diversity.
Perhaps some students would be a better fit at another school, where reason, progress, science, education, modernity, and inclusiveness are not emphasized in the manner they are at elite schools?
There are plenty of conservative-controlled campuses.
So Arthur...serious question. I know you're a smart guy. Let's leave aside the clinger bullshit for a moment, because I would actually like to understand your personal perspective. No joke.
The issues at hand here: race based preferences.
Yea or Nay? Some make the argument that affirmative action is just race discrimination by another name. And that really, we ought to be looking at a wider range of criteria (like socio-economic status, etc). Others say, "Nope. Race issues persist, and this is one way to address it". I know, I know, I sound like Justice Breyer here.
Where are you coming out on this question, and why? If we do not use race for classification and preference-based admissions, then what is the right criteria (if any) to use? Or should we not draw lines at all?
I tend toward the 'don't draw any lines at all' way of thinking, but would like to read your perspective on this. It is not an easy question, and honestly, I see it as a philosophical question, more than anything else.
"I know you’re a smart guy. "
Assumes facts not in evidence.
I know you are still a shithead, Bob.
Anything that is a factor in reasonable evaluation of how many rungs of life's ladder a candidate has climbed (not inherited) -- disability, race, parents (shitty parents, in particular), poverty, nature of school, resources -- should be (and should be entitled to be) considered, alongside grades, special talent, extracurricular activity, coursework, work record, testing (to some degree), and the like, in my judgment.
This does not strike me as a particularly close question, especially in the context of our national experience.
Thank you for asking.
Rev., thank-you for the respectful answer. I agree with you on the "how many rungs" point. You then list several rungs, all of which I agree with. The problem is that those issues tend to give you very little (if any) boost. But race has been used to give rather large boosts.
So this must either mean that race in and of itself must be bigger challenges than poverty, poor schools, special talents, etc. Or (and what I suspect is more likely), the advocates for using race do so because they assume that race should be a stand-in for all those challenges. In that case, it's just horrible stereotyping.
It's neither of those. The point of racial diversity in admissions is to help the white kids have a better college experience. It's not to help the black kids (except to the extent it creates a critical mass for social / campus activities).
"Help the White Kids have a Better College Experience"?????
Oh, the Marriage-a-Juan-A, you've got a point there
Point-Dexter,
Frank "Still Smokin'"
Oh, Man-With-Unattractive-Penis! I love your nonsense poems.
Arthur...thanks for the straightforward answer. Seriously, I am glad you did that. You're going for the 'total picture' and that honestly makes sense to me (although, how to figure out the criteria for those factors is a gargantuan task).
Being born with defective DNA is certainly a hardship.
"parents (shitty parents, in particular)"
Rev, did you have to overcome that particular obstacle?
Why do you ask?
Your comments about children escaping from rural religious backward hellhole left-behind clinger places seem fairly personal.
you know what happens when you assume....
and Jerry Sandusky, I mean "Arthur" probably is a smart guy, so was Jeff Dahmer (and Jerry Sandusky, I mean Arthur)
Yes, because basing aptitude on melanin levels is all about reason, modernity, science and progress. Who knew slave owners were so socially and intellectually advanced?
Oh wait, that’s different.
Irony isn't dead.
At least for Black students, this is a form of reparations for the effects of slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, etc. There wouldn't be a need to take these things into consideration were it not for the way some folks have and still do treat entire communities because of the color of their skin.
1990s shawn_dude: "At least for the Serb nation, invading and oppressing their Croatian and Muslim neighbors is a form of reparations for the effects of Croatian atrocities in WWII, Turkish enslavement of Serb children, etc. There wouldn’t be a need to take these things into consideration were it not for the way some folks have and still do treat entire communities because of their religion and ethnicity."
Your point?
Let the Balkans show America the way to racial harmony!
You'd have tp prove that.
If all that you meant is that such work adds to a person's perspective, I'd agree based on personal experience. But in today academic atmosphere working for Chuck Grassley is getting you at best nowhere in top tier universities
You're both just speculating as to what is likely to happen. He speculates that it would be seen as a negative; you speculate that it would be seen as a positive. People can guess as to which scenario is more likely or where the answer will fall on that continuum.
I will say that, considering the way that so many on the right get vilified by people in academia, I understand where his assumption of bad faith is coming from. The assumption of good faith? Eh... not so much. I suspect the real plus-factor is that you don't work for Rand Paul unless you've been pretty well connected in other circles as well. And I suspect that working for Rand Paul would not get you the same plus-factor as working for a democrat would.
No disagreement with your general take except to point out there’s a large assumption underpinning all of this: the student wants to get admitted to an elite, *private* school. There are somewhere in the ballpark of 4000 universities in this country and the same admissions issues do not exist for a very large number of them. And as we are talking about private schools here, having a pro-LGBT advocacy might easily prevent you from being admitted to a large number of good, private schools like BYU. No one is entitled to go to Harvard or Yale and if those schools want to emphasize liberal ideals, they can.
Meanwhile, Desantis went to both Harvard and Yale so clearly right-wing conservatives are able to get in. Kavanaugh went to Yale. The who’s who of right-wing America are likely littered with elite degrees from liberal institutions.
"Meanwhile, Desantis went to both Harvard and Yale so clearly right-wing conservatives are able to get in."
Were able to, at one time. If you look at the studies of elite North-Eastern institutions' faculty composition, things really started changing beginning in the mid to late 90's. Prior to that conservatives were looked at as, I suppose, harmless eccentrics. After they captured Congress out of the blue, the harmless went away.
Are you referring to right-wing culture wars and the impact they've had on the general public's view of what conservative politics stands for these days? Homophobic, racist, misogynistic, antisemitic? Prior this, conservatives were still buying into the whole idea of democracy as a means to govern ourselves. Lately, no so much.
How many clerkships for conservative judges are filled by ivy league students? Are conservative judges having a hard time getting Yale graduates?
Desantis was at Yale in 2001, and Harvard at 2005.
Your timeline doesn't add up. Plus, of course, the right has been yelling about liberal campuses since the 1960s. A bit convenient that *now* they're finally right now.
And, as noted, the Supreme Court conservatives don't seem hurting for conservative Yale and Harvard law grads.
Racial classifications *are* arbitrary but that doesn't mean they don't exist in the minds of people who discriminate. You think the Klan would have been impressed by a Harvard study showing race is a social construct?
So even though race is both arbitrary and a social construct, so long as employers, landlords, and others believe in them and use them as the basis for discrimination, the law has no choice but to go along with the charade. Or to clean up the consequences of it.
(1) that is totally irrelevant to the diversity rationale; and (2) do white Hispanics face more discrimination than Hmong, Afghans, Laplanders, Mongolians, Turkmen, Bobover Hasidim, and many other groups, especially dark-complexioned or members of religious minorities with strange dress (Sikhs, Hasidim, some Muslims), that get no preference and indeed may face additional discrimination in admissions if they are”Asian”? I seriously doubt it.
(1) Only if you apply a thoroughly cramped rationale that considers how the world actually operates to be irrelevant; and
(2) No classification system is perfect, but that's not an excuse to toss the whole thing out. I don't hear anyone, for example, arguing to abolish the concept of continents just because it's not entirely crystal clear why Australia is and Greenland isn't. There will always be a certain amount of line drawing involved, with close cases on either side of the line.
But what you're ignoring is that problems are fixed at the point at which they are actual problems. Whether X group has suffered more than Y group is a question of fact; the principle to which the facts are applied is that you remedy the problem among groups that are actually suffering the results of discrimination. I myself am half Ukrainian, half Norwegian. Neither of those groups, to my knowledge, has a history of being discriminated against in the US, so I don't need affirmative action. There are groups that do have such a history, and they do.
I mean, Australia is considered a continent because it’s on its own plate, while Greenland is not because it’s on the North American plate and is connected to America by the continental shelf. It’s one of us.
So, I mean, we do know why that is.
Australia is also more than three times larger than Greenland...Mercator projection isn't your friend 🙂
Also Australia isn’t right next to a much larger landmass, with all kinds of little and intermediate islands so it just looks like the world’s largest island.
Bevis, Absaroka and Krayt, you've given good reasons for why Australia is a continent and Greenland is not. Having done that, would you care to respond to my actual point that classification is not an exact science, and it's not always clear where a particular line should go?
And by the way, Bevis, India has its own plate too. Krayt, depending on how you define "right next," Australia is in fact next to Asia, and Absaroka, size goes to where to draw the line. So you've demonstrated that my point about it being open to debate is valid.
I had to take courses in Historical Geology and Structural Geology in college. It is absolutely settled that Australia is a continent and Greenland isn’t.
“The science is settled”. Are you a continent denier?
Still not responding to my actual point I see.
Whatever race may be, "continent" is absolutely a social construct devised by humans to describe things. So it's not a question of science; it's a question of definitions. Kind of like whether Pluto is a planet. By "absolutely settled" you mean that's the generally accepted definition for the time being. If at some point in the future someone decides some other definition would be more useful, it will change.
And as interesting as all of this is, do you have a response to my main point?
Krychek_2: I disagree with a premise you have: race is an arbitrary construct. That is not true. Race is genetic (and therefore an immutable characteristic).
I do think you ask fair questions about line drawing.
Thank you, Commentator X_Y. And of course he hasn't responded to my central point because he has no response to it; if he did he'd have already made it.
Assuming for sake of argument that you're right and race actually does exist, then yes, it's genetic. But so what? People from India are Aryans, meaning despite their dark skin they are from the same blood line as Europeans, but try telling that to a Klansman. And there has been so much inter-racial reproduction over the centuries -- virtually anyone of European descent has some Mongol blood thanks to Genghis Khan -- that there really aren't that many purebreds left. That's certainly true in the South, in which interbreeding with slaves produced large number of whites with some black blood. So maybe the question isn't whether it theoretically exists so much as just how useful a trait it is.
Well, if race is an immutable characteristic, maybe it is not the appropriate thing to use in determining preferences for admissions (or anything else). I get the 'social construct' argument; our 'reactions' to this thing we call race are learned behaviors over time, and reflect the values of the society in which we live. I get it. There is some truth to this, to be perfectly honest. I have to concede that.
Still though, from my own philosophical (not political) POV, I would like to see race preferences eliminated. We seem to be trying to account for (or right) the wrong thing here.
I’m not going to get into an argument over race and AA because there’s no way out.
If Australia doen't meet the current definition of a continent, it can be demoted to a province of Asia, just as Pluto was demoted to whatever inferior status it has now.
I mean, what are the Australians going to do, throw wallabies at you?
"I’m not going to get into an argument over race and AA because there’s no way out."
You are in a maze of twisty little arguments, all alike.
LOL....continent denier. Pretty good one.
Still tho, he asked a good question. Where do we draw the line?
My answer: Beats me. Maybe not draw the line at all? 🙂
And in addition to all of the above arguments, whether Greenland is classified as a continent has no significance outside of social studies classrooms and textbook publishers' offices, as far as I can tell. Whereas how college applicants are classified, racially, does actually have real world effects.
Australia is considered a continent because it’s on its own plate,
Australia is on its own plate, but I think it was established as a continent before plate tectonics became a widely accepted theory.
Didn't that happen in the 60's- 70's? Yet when I was in grade school, before then, I was taught that Australia was a continent.
Australia is on its own plate, but I think it was established as a continent before plate tectonics became a widely accepted theory.
If that's the case, then the fact that Australia is on its own plate is post hoc justification for the original classification to be kept. It could not be part of why it was considered a separate continent in the first place.
Pluto, on the other hand, was argued out of being a planet because of how what we've learned about the development of the solar system, the discovery of several more similar objects even further out, and its composition show that it is better placed in a separate category than with the planets.
Most racial classifications predate the discovery of DNA, so any detailed genetic analysis would have to show them to be at least as distinct as previously believed in order to support continued use of racial classifications for biological or medical purposes. I don't think that is true, though. There is quite a bit of genetic diversity within existing racial classifications to the point that it is not as useful in medicine as once believed. Genetic differences may also be more geographical in nature than based on outward appearance, making it even less useful to tie genetics to social views on race.
“Pluto, on the other hand, was argued out of being a planet because of how what we’ve learned about the development of the solar system, the discovery of several more similar objects even further out, and its composition show that it is better placed in a separate category than with the planets.”
Or maybe just because some people in the astronomical community wanted to be ‘edgy’ and gin up a controversy. The truth is, "planet" isn't a natural category in the first place.
Brett Bellmore, spotting 100 of the last 0 conspiracies.
Huh. Well, I live in the continental US and I’m not on the North American plate. Does that mean part of California isn’t really a continent? San Francisco down to San Diego plus Baja California are on the Pacific plate and there’s far more Mexico on that plate than the US. By land mass, New Zealand probably “owns” the Pacific plate. And since Hawaii isn’t CONUS and also sits on the Pacific plate, I guess that means coastal California isn’t CONUS either?
Or maybe using plate tectonics isn’t useful in answering this question.
The requirement that race-based remedies be narrowly tailored does in fact require that the classifications used make sense. Not perfect, but at least the schools should have thought about why the use the classifications they do, and be able to articulate those reasons. They haven’t.
I don't know that they haven't and if you have any evidence that they haven't I'd like to see it. Have their internal deliberations been published? For as much as we know, they could have spent a year consulting on it with teams of experts in every relevant discipline, and may have perfectly fine answers to every one of your questions. Or maybe it was just thrown together. I don't know and I suspect you don't either.
You have the burden of proof backwards. The schools have the obligation to both develop and articulate the reasons for their classifications. They had the specific obligation to articulate those reasons in their filings to the court.
Having read their filings in this case, I can say with certainty that they have failed to articulate their reasoning. Since those filings are public, you have no excuse for failing to know whether they have or have not articulated their reasoning.
I have no such burden. The burden is on the person claiming the policy violates the law.
No, the burden on the person claiming the policy violates the law is only to make a prima facie case that it discriminates (that is, treats others unevenly) on the basis of race. Even the school concedes that threshold has been met. The burden then shifts to the government agency (in this case, the school) to present an affirmative defense that their discrimination is narrowly tailored to a significant government interest.
I too read the filings. Harvard met its burden. They don't even use these classifications, so David's whole thesis is (knowingly) bunk.
And just to be clear, I don't think there's anything in the Constitution that mandates affirmative action, and we may be at the point where it has outlived its usefulness. I just don't think your arguments against it are all that persuasive.
"The people who discriminate" in this case would be Harvard. So there's the "others" using them as a basis for discrimination. The litigants are attempting to stop them, Harvard is attempting to preserve its right to discriminate based on race. If the law does anything with regards to race, then surely it prevents racial discrimination in university admission. If it doesn't, then it does nothing at least so far as it concerns non-government actors.
Right, go peddle that crap about the people trying to fix the past effects of discrimination are the true racists somewhere else. No one buys it except for the already converted.
Go peddle "discriminating on the basis of race is wrong, so we have to discriminate on the basis of race" to somewhere else. No one buys it except for the already convinced and those who stand to benefit from present racial discrimination.
Boy hits his sister. Boy gets spanking. Violence was used to teach the child that violence is wrong. If you understand why that's not a problem you should also understand why affirmative action, while technically race discrimination, is qualitatively different than the race discrimination someone is trying to fix.
Man hits woman. They each have children (with other people).
Son of man finds daughter of woman. Hits her.
Claims that it's not a problem because it's balancing out the books.
If you understand why that's not sound logic, then you understand why discriminating against people with skin color X in favor of people of skin color Y because in the distant past people with skin color Y were discriminated against by people with skin color X is similarly not sound.
Anti-Black racism was defeated decades ago, the perpetrators are dead and only the oldest of the old have any memory of it. Discriminating now to compensate is about as logical as Italy handing out bags of cash to make out for Diocletian's anti-Christian prosecutions. It's a dead issue except as a justification for present racial discrimination. And soon that will be dead too if the court rules in favor of racial equality. The conservative legal movement will drag the left, kicking and screaming, into a fair and color-blind society. I'm sorry if you find this troubling.
Yours isn't sound logic because the people you describe aren't an institution in the same way Harvard is an institution. Harvard is practicing affirmative action to make up for its own past description. So your hypo isn't even an apples to apples comparison.
In addition, the "balancing the books" you suggest does not balance the books, so it fails a second time. The boy derives no benefit from hitting the girl (except maybe he feels good about it which I'm not inclined to count). Affirmative action is to provide current benefits to make up for past losses.
You’re the one who started with a personal metaphor so I followed your lead and did the same. Then when that proved unviable you suddenly changed your mind– “Oh it’s different for institutions!”
Even accepting your revised argument, then you’re just advocating for perpetual racism. Any institution that was ever racist on one occasion can be racist now, so long as they say their current racism is to compensate for past racism. So therefore the children of Asians discriminated against today will argue, quite sensibly, that now they should get affirmative action on their behalf. Which creates a new batch of victims of racism, because for those future Asians to be discriminated for somebody else has to be discriminated against, presumably Black people would have their number come up again. Your advocacy for racism today, even if motivated by sincere regret over dead people’s racism of yesterday, is merely a formula for infinite and eternal racism– if we can’t stop it now, then when does it stop? Ever?
We can stop this today. The way to stop discriminating on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race.
But when you use a metaphor to disagree with an argument, your metaphor has to match the basic principles in the argument, and yours don't. Your claim, if I understand you correctly, is that affirmative action is wrong because it's racially discriminatory.
Is it wrong for a police officer to speed to catch someone who went 80 miles an hour through a school zone? I don't think so. Technically, the police officer was speeding, but his speeding and the motorist's speeding are qualitatively different. They're not the same thing. And that's my argument here: Even granting that AA is racially discriminatory, it's a qualitatively different kind of racial discrimination than what's being remedied. There's a difference between trying to fix something (even if you're a bit clumsy when you do it) and breaking it in the first place.
Your metaphor is flawed again.
The cop unjustifiable pulled over someone with a Honda because he hates Japanese cars and in the past let Ford drivers go because he likes American cars. Realizing that he was over-attached to car manufacturers, he now always tickets Fords and lets Honda drivers go.
This isn't manufacturing equality, it's just new discrimination. If you can find the original, unjustly ticketed Honda drivers and give them their money back then fine, but that's as far as it goes. If they're dead then there's nothing to do. Giving free passes to new Honda drivers isn't justice.
Institutional anti-black racism was eliminated six decades ago. There are a still few people left who are victims of it but they're not applying to undergraduate university, they're applying to nursing homes. It's therefore time for the pro-black institutional racism to die too. Otherwise you're right back to Italy giving money to Christians because Rome persecuted them, it's just goodies on account of an obsolete historical incident.
No, you're insisting on changing the facts so that my metaphor gives you the desired result rather than the result I actually drafted. We can talk all day about misbehaving police, but if your rationale is that speeding is speeding (or racial discrimination is racial discrimination), then you have to answer my actual question which is whether it is wrong for a police officer to speed in order to catch a speeder.
You keep using inapt metaphors because racism is unjustifiable. They're not being racist to catch a racist. They were racist in the past against X, and are now being racist against Y. They're just racists. The question is whether the constitution allows racism. Perhaps it does, but if the 14th Amendment is so cramped that it allows racial discrimination in public and private colleges, then it does very little.
"Boy hits his sister. Boy gets spanking."
The punishment is given to the guilty individual. That's good.
"Son of man finds daughter of woman. Hits her."
The punishment is given to someone other than the guilty individual. That's bad.
Whether the punisher is an individual or an institution is irrelevant. If the police department has a history of overlooking crime by the mafia, that doesn't mean it's good for them to make amends by arresting random innocent Italians.
But it's not punishment. It's more in the nature of restitution. Whites were permitted to get a head start in the economy because of past racism; AA allows minorities to catch up.
"AA allows minorities to catch up"
Not Asians.
Good thing no Asian ever suffered from racism in the US.
It is most definitely punishment to take from a newly-immigrated Swede and give to a newly-immigrated Nigeria merely because some other white people did bad things to other black people. Restitution is to take from the people who did the harming and give to the people who were harmed. Restitution is not an eternally-inheritable obligation.
"But it’s not punishment. It’s more in the nature of restitution."
1)I don't think that, say, a Hmong kid owes restitution to anyone.
2)I don't think some poor white kid born in his crack mom's singlewide owes restitution to anyone either.
Your categories of 'whites' and 'minorities' are both made up of *individuals* who deserve to be treated as such. I don't want innocent Italians arrested even if you can make the case that in the past members of organized crime were disproportionately Italian.
Bob, is there a history of Asians suffering the specific type of discrimination that excludes them from Harvard?
Rossami, I've already explicitly said I oppose that; see further down the thread. And by your definition of punishment, recovering stolen goods from anyone who didn't actually commit the theft is penal.
Absaroka, I don't think that an innocent taxpayer whose city has just been successfully sued for policy misconduct personally owes restitution to anyone either. But it's not about his personally. It's about him being part of the corpus.
" I don’t think that an innocent taxpayer whose city has just been successfully sued for policy misconduct personally owes restitution to anyone either. But it’s not about his personally. It’s about him being part of the corpus."
He is part of the corpus 'city taxpayers'.
The Hmong kid isn't part of the corpus 'benefited from slavery'.
"But it’s not punishment. It’s more in the nature of restitution."
It's in the nature of restitution in the same sense as if I'd robbed Peter and given the money to Paul. Seized by guilt, I make up for it by robbing Jimmy and giving the money to Albert, instead.
This isn't restitution, because the cost is bourn by people who didn't do the wrong, and the benefit given to people who weren't the ones wronged. This is play acting at restitution. It's a morality play with conscripted actors.
"Whites were permitted to get a head start in the economy because of past racism; AA allows minorities to catch up."
Here's the very crux of the problem. "Whites". "minorities". Specific individuals were previously, wrongly, advantaged and held back by this institution. Now this institution, indeed historically guilty, (Though none of the people working there personally bear any guilt.) proposes to assuage its guilt by wrongly advantaging and holding back different individuals.
This sort of thing only seems to make sense once you've internalized the core precept of racism: That it's proper to treat people as mere instances of a group, rather than individuals. So that the fact that you're paying 'restitution' to somebody who wasn't personally wronged, at the expense of somebody who wasn't personally benefited by that wrong, seems irrelevant to you.
Because, instead of being race blind, race is ALL you see...
No, it isn't. Setting aside the pretense that Harvard's policies are about diversity, and looking at the school most charitably, Harvard is practicing affirmative action to make up for discrimination suffered by certain people in society.
Again, no. It's like you aren't paying any attention to what Prof. Bernstein has been explaining! Affirmative action isn't aimed at "past losses." It's arbitrarily aimed at specific groups that have political clout, regardless of "past losses."
Oh, I understand Professor Bernstein loud and clear; I just think he's full of shit. You've adopted the cynical view that it's all about who has political clout, but policy making is always about who has political clout. Doesn't mean there isn't a good reason for the policy independent of who benefits.
Disqualified at "anti-Black racism was defeated decades ago."
"Anti-Black racism was defeated decades ago, "
A profoundly ignorant statement -- newspapers have reported on segregated proms within the past few years, and race-targeting voter suppression is still a standard practice -- but not surprising at a white, male, disaffected conservative blog.
Good One Jerry,
but you left out the Segregated Dorms at University of California (Berkley and LA varieties) NYU, Yale, and so many more it'd be easier to list the Ivy League Schools that don't honor the legacy of George Wallace and Robert KKK Bird (both DemoKKKrats BTW)
I bought it
How do the past effects of discrimination harm recent black immigrants?
If you're trying to cure the harm of past discrimination, shouldn't it apply to people whose direct lineage was discriminated against in the past?
I would factor that into the analysis. I think someone who is a direct descendant of a slave, or a candidate who was denied admission to Harvard for being Black, has a far greater claim on AA than someone from Africa whose parents arrived in the US twenty years ago.
But that's quibbling over details, whereas what I'm hearing here is that AA needs to go altogether.
Umm, you are aware that Slavery ended in 1865? Guess not.
It's not quibbling over details - it's fundamental to the argument. The argument is over race-based affirmative action - which, as implemented in the US, is a very simplistic model not even based on actual racial distinctions. Nobody argues about economic-based affirmative action (which is another word for need-based grants).
The people saying that "AA needs to go altogether" are using the same short-hand as the advocates for AA - that it's the simplistic race-based affirmative action.
Rossami, not everyone accepts the simplistic analysis you've offered. "Race-based" does not occur in a vacuum; questions about when and who and by whom are relevant. As I said, I think the direct descendant of a slave has a far greater claim on AA than someone who just got here.
I would also means test it. The child of a black millionaire probably needs AA less than the child of a crack whore.
The child of a millionaire almost certainly doesn't need assistance at all and the child of a crack whore definitely does, in both cases regardless of race. Stop treating people by stereotypes.
Those aren’t details. It’s important because they are saying race is the factor, not impact of past discrimination.
They argue that race is the visible proxy for victimhood which has always been absurd on it’s face, but the rule nonetheless.
It turns our justice system inside out awarding retribution to those who can not show actual harm and awarded solely on the assumption of harm as signaled by race.
That’s why AA is trash.
BCD, does it occur to you that the simple fact that the strawman you've erected *is* absurd may be a pretty good indication that that's not what proponents of AA actually believe?
Not really pertinent, but every time I see your Nome de Guere, I'm reminded of the Marine Corpse (HT Barry Hussein O) slang term
"Big Chicken Dinner" aka "Bad Conduct Discharge"
Frank "USMC, U-nlimited S-hit and M-ass C-onfusion"
But that can't be true because it was not always true. The 'science' was not taught. "Biological races do not exist—and never have. This view is shared by all scientists who study variation in human populations. Yet racial prejudice and intolerance based on the myth of race remain deeply ingrained in Western society."
This is not attention; this is you logrolling.
Which is part of the biz, but come on; no one thinks this is what people nor the Court have an issue with regarding affirmative action.
If we want to focus on disingenuous, than the diversity rationale as a compelling interest doesn’t stand a chance.
I agree it doesn't stand a chance.
I don't agree that it's generally disingenuous, nor with your implication that the issue the Court has is said disingenuousness.
No, it's not always the biggest reason, but there's plenty of discussion about the benefits of diversity in our workforce, and in the academic pipeline to get there.
I think you have your causation wrong.
Institutions: "We need this affirmative action policy to remedy past societal discrimination."
SCOTUS: "You can't do that. Remedial measures not targeted to your own past discrimination are illegal. But you can have affirmative action to boost diversity."
Institutions: "Okay, we need this affirmative action policy to boost diversity."
Maybe - I wasn't around back in the day when AA got started.
But I think that there is plenty of evidence that regardless of what they once believed, diversity as a benefit in itself is something institutions believe in.
Maybe it started as a fig leaf and eventually the schools 'became the mask;' I couldn't tell you. But I think you need evidence it's disingenuous *today* and I'm not seeing much. In fact, as I said, I'm seeing some pretty legit studies and pretty sincere seeming opinions that diversity is good for diversity's sake.
Affirmative Action is soon to be dead. For ideological reasons. Which are fine reasons, since ideology is caught up in constitutional jurisprudence. But this excuse making that the affirmative action proponents are all liars is rather much for me.
"But I think that there is plenty of evidence that regardless of what they once believed, diversity as a benefit in itself is something institutions believe in."
Yet, there's plenty of evidence that it isn't, because they're laser focused on "diversity" which replicates the prior quotas. As our host points out, they'd be doing things very differently indeed if it was actually diversity they were aiming for. Recruiting Inuit and Polynesian islanders, for instance. And that's not even getting into ideological diversity, which they affirmatively are avoiding.
As our host points out, they’d be doing things very differently indeed if it was actually diversity they were aiming for. Recruiting Inuit and Polynesian islanders, for instance.
They are doing that. David is lying to gin up book sales. Don't believe him. Read the briefs and opinions instead.
So?
Perhaps not with the current Supreme Court membership, arranged by the party of white nationalists; immigrant-haters; gay-bashers; Christian dominionists; misogynists; Confederate flag enthusiasts; and other (self-described) "colorblind" Americans, and eager to overturn precedent that doesn't flatter the preferences of culture war casualties. I recommend that clingers enjoy the current condition while it lasts.
The Washington Post calls this “The most diverse SCOTUS ever”, but you probably consider the Post a MAGA rag.
That is mostly a reflection of how the Supreme Court resembled this blog (white, male, old-timey) for centuries.
and yourself, last time I checked Jerry Sandusky was a White, Male, Old White guy.
The current court is “The most diverse in history “, per the Washington Post.
Well I'm sure they were referring to the gay, the moron latinx, and the recent affirmative action hire.
And not the actual good jurists.
Brett Kavanaugh is gay!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Just noting the :"diversity rationale" and "critical mass" used in Grutter was an intentional deception. As noted by the trial court, the composition of african americans in the UofMich law school remained virtually unchanged over the course of 10-15 years.
There was a reason CA6 had a de novo restatement of facts - to hide the quota.
How does the unchanged rate of AA's at UofM establish deception on their part regarding seeking a critical mass?
Sacastro -
You display an impressive detachment from reality.
You might become familiar with the actual facts in the case.
Start by reading the district court opinion.
In March 2001, U.S. District Court Judge Bernard Friedman ruled that the admissions policies were unconstitutional because they "clearly consider" race and are "practically indistinguishable from a quota system."
Sarcastr0 3 hours ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"How does the unchanged rate of AA’s at UofM establish deception on their part regarding seeking a critical mass?"
Or is a better explanation is that you refuse to deal with reality.
in this case, "seeking critical mass" was a just another name for the quota that Uof Mich had been using for numerous years.
Yes, Joe. Until that case found such a quota impermissible, and they stopped.
Nothing about lying I can see.
Sarcastr0 36 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
"Yes, Joe. Until that case found such a quota impermissible, and they stopped.
Nothing about lying I can see."
Sacastro - try to become familiar with the actual case history before responding again.
You have this bad habit of saying stuff that's wrong, and then when people explain why you're wrong, you get really high handed and disengage.
The habit makes it look a lot like when you're challenged, you take refuge in bluster so as not to have to examine you own take.
Maybe I am wrong! I mean, I read the case a while ago. Walk e through it, then.
Strict scrutiny (the legal standard of review applicable here) requires that the solution be "narrowly tailored" to the problem. "Narrowly tailored" allows some discretion when the proposed solution is new but once there is evidence, "narrowly tailored" must also show that the solution actually achieves the aims intended.
If affirmative action was implemented because 'there aren't enough blacks' and after 10-15 years, there are no more blacks than there were before, then you have evidence that the solution is not competent to the problem it is intended to address. If you knowingly continue to advocate for a non-competent solution, yeah, that starts to sound like deception.
Rossami - the issue is that you don't know the counterfactual of what would have happened without the policy.
So you're going to hang your whole argument on 'confounding factors'? That's a plausible counter-argument to evidence from statistical inference. It can be undercut by evidence from other institutions/jurisdictions/scenario where the same confounding factors would be expected to show up but don't.
To the case above, the 'confounding factors' hypothesis predicts that other law schools which did not implement the UM decision policy should have seen declining black enrollment during the same period. There is, as far as I'm aware, no such evidence - and it's not for a lack of looking.
That is not what I said.
I'm going to hang my argument on we don't know the counterfactual, which has nothing to do with confounding factors.
Point is, arguing that no change means lying is not going to fly. And no, comparing other schools in other regions won't get you there.
It looks like the policy is required to maintain something approaching the unspecified critical mass, though again we don't know the counterfactual so we cannot be sure.
Were I a policymaker, I do think there is some suggestive info on Cali state schools and Cali Federal schools. But I also think that reasonable minds can differ.
That's my main issue - insisting that those who you think were wrong must be *liars* requires a lot more proof than you've dug up.
That counterfactual would likely include more Asians being admitted.
Sure, I think that is absolutely likely.
It also has no bearing on my thesis.
1. There are plenty of people that do. Just because you don't want to believe them when they say it doesn't make it so.
2. It is especially pertinent in these cases which are not brought by "white" people on reverse discrimination grounds, but by Asian Americans because of these very issues
1. I suppose maybe there are lots of people I don't hear or read talking about the issue being the arbitrariness, and not how it comports with our general hostility to racial classifications.
But I don't think it's very likely.
2. This seems to prove my point in 1); you're tracking the general dialogue, not Prof. Bernstein's particular issue.
And here you pretend to be the opposite of naive: wise to the ways of the disingenuous.
Sheesh. You are as inconsistent at the classifications.
I think the burden to prove disingenuousness should be on the accuser, and I further see evidence in the academic literature of sincerity.
I think bare assertions of seeing evidence should be backed up by links to said evidence.
Good lord. You wonder if there are academic papers about the benefits of diversity?!
https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_diversity_makes_us_smarter
No changing goalposts
I applaud the impulse to keep things on track.
But my OG goalpoasts were that academic writing shows that the diversity rationale is *not* disingenuous.
You’re citing an editorial? From Berkeley?
If what's at issue is going on in the academic mind, I think this editorial is pretty good evidence of sincere commitment to diversity.
And that this is not a disingenuous rationale as Prof. Bernstein posits.
The academic literature reeks of politically expedient excuses for racial discrimination.
The excuses offered for Harvard's behavior always neatly ignore or sidestep the facts that overt, state approved discrimination and maltreatment of Chinese and Japanese was rampant in the late 19th and 20th centuries through the WWII internment. Plus we also hear plenty these days about anti-Asian hate crimes. Yet it is okay for Harvard to actively discount achievement of Asian applicants
The academic literature reeks of politically expedient excuses for racial discrimination.
You think this research is being done in bad faith? Like, these scientists are choosing their topics to provide political cover for something they know is false?
Get out of town.
Bad faith is your word.
It is done with ideological blinders. They create vast blind spot and intellectual insensitivities.
If you have never seen that, you really don't know how to read sociological papers critically.
Ah, so it's less bad faith and more that you know reality, and can tell their results are bunk.
If you have never seen that, you really don’t know how to read sociological papers critically.
I can indeed see papers written with ideological priors messing with them. But by this point it's pretty well accepted that the benefits of diversity for creativity, innovation, problem solving, are real.
If you are going to argue all that research is false - written with ideological blinders and statistically juked or something - I need more than 'I know how to read papers and you don't.'
"If you are going to argue all that research is false "
Again, your standard MO. Exaggerate and distort a comment and then argue against that distorted statement.
I'd say that is not arguing in good faith.
I mean, you seem to have issue with my thesis that these papers show that academia takes the benefits of diversity seriously.
And then when I ask you about your issue, you say I'm distorting you.
What is your line of argument, exactly, as relates to the body of academic research on the benefits of diversity and academic sincerity about that thesis?
"Get out of town."
You have to treat exchanges here with a much improved sense of humor.
You have showed and increasing tendency to treat every disagreement as an opportunity to pick a fight. Lighten up. It's only politics.
I'm not sure you have my tone right. I wrote 'get out of town' not 'fuck you.'
Anyhow, I don't like your blanket dismissal of research you don't like as ideological.
Point to flawed method, not flawed end-goals, lest your own biases take over.
I also don't think I'm picking a lot of fights; or not more so than usual. I have plenty of "I will admit" and "I agree" and "I like this point" type observations in this thread. And hardly only with liberal takes.
Try stepping back a bit. Get out of town is less crude but no less aggressive than "fuck you."
I have exhausted my time wasting quota for the day.
I hope that you are not wasting your time on the taxpayers nickle.
Good evening, Don Nico. I think you're over-reacting, at least in part. "Get out of town" is, in my experience, a sarcastic way of saying "that is obviously right". It would be the appropriate response to a press release about the latest government-funded study showing that water is wet, that puppies are cute and that most people think motherhood is good.
In the context above, Sarcastr0 is accusing you of motivated reasoning - which was uncivil and, in my opinion, unjustified but not made materially worse by his adding "get out of town."
I do note that he still hasn't addressed your point about the disconnect between overt and recent discrimination against Asians and the explictly anti-Asian policy that the academic research is being used to defend.
Rosami,
You could be correct, BUT if have seen S_0 language and behavior toward those with who he disagrees or even just enjoys jousting with deteriorate. 'Still in the interests of good sportsmanship, I'll accept your point as correct.
As for my point about Asians, it seems to be conveniently ignored by those supporting the Harvard practice.
Whew! Shocking. Thanks, Prof. Bernstein, for the eye-opener.
If AA is overturned (as all government racial discrimination should be) Justice Thomas should write the opinion.
To make it easier for an enlarged and improved Supreme Court to overrule the decision?
Sort of like to see an enlarged court myself, especially with the Repubiclown Congress that's coming.
I do not expect you to like an enlarged Supreme Court.
The only thing you like enlarged is your "husband's" ramrod before he sodomizes you bareback.
Oooh, Oooh, Oooh, Mis-tuh Kot-air!, good one!
Apart from the issue of arbitrariness, the rationale of "diversity" suffers from another, related problem. Discrimination to achieve diversity is justified because it supposedly enhances the educational mission of the institution. But the only diversity that seems to count is racial/ethnic diversity. If universities were serious about the "diversity" rationale, they would take diversity of experience and background into account.
Thus, for example, if you are an ethnic Korean, it matters not whether you grew up in Korea and only learned English as a second language, or if your parents came to the U.S., prospered economically, sent you to a good private school, and English is your only language. I can attest from personal experience that exposure to the former indeed enhances the educational mission, while I doubt the latter would do much.
Likewise, if you are black, it matters not whether your parents are professional and comfortably upper middle class and you went to a solid suburban public school (or maybe they pushed themselves and you went to a better private school), or whether you come from a single-parent household, lived in a poor neighborhood, worked hard, got decent grades and now are looking to get ahead by attending an elite college. Both are treated the same for "diversity" purposes.
IOW, the "diversity" rationale appears to be a fig leaf for racial quotas. Like the famous (and, IMO, oft misunderstood) example of a yarmulka tax.
the only diversity that seems to count is racial/ethnic diversity.
No, that’s the only diversity rationale that the right focuses on. I can’t speak for all schools, but most of those I’ve talked to (informally, while on other business) are pretty into admitting those coming from nontraditional backgrounds generally.
Though the Korean immigrant story you told doesn’t by itself seem a particularly uncommon path, at least as sketched out by you.
THe schools may be "into" accepting people of diverse background, but there is no systematic ranking of people based on background. Sure, if you pitch yourself as somethign unusual, you might catch some admission officer's eye and get in. But it is only racial diversity that is systematically employed.
And you missed the Korean immigrant point. A kid who grew up in a U.S. suburb, with economically succesful parents, and speaks only English has little to offer in terms of "diversity," regardless of whether he is white, black or Korean. So you missed the point.
Admissions is not nowadays generally based on a systemic ranking, after some recent Supreme Court rules regarding the inclusion of race in such a system.
kid who grew up in a U.S. suburb, with economically succesful parents, and speaks only English has little to offer in terms of “diversity,” regardless of whether he is white, black or Korean
You are missing *my* point. That in actual admissions, diversity is in fact about more than race. The right just yells about race (I leave why as an exercise to the reader), so the public focuses on that aspect.
You are providing a great example of the misunderstanding of what matters that this right-wing driven narrative creates.
The right just yells about race (I leave why as an exercise to the reader)
Perhaps because racial discrimination is illegal, while other kinds are not? Or because racial discrimination concerns an immutable characteristic and divides people into castes, while the other kinds do not?
I'm not going to engage in your diversion into what the law requires, but rest assured I disagree with your take.
The point is that this focus is why you believe race is the only diversity factor that matters; not that it is the only diversity factor that exists.
Once again your diversion into race-specific objections proves my point.
What "diversion" THat's what the post is about, and so to that is what the Supreme Court case that is pending is about.
If your "point" is that all right wingers are closet racists, then you have proven nothing. It is clear that race/ethnicity is a major factor in admissions, and that the Civil Rights Act on its face forbids it. That's the issue. How much diversity of background counts (and I believe it only counts sporadically) is not in currently in legal dispute.
This is the issue I took with your post:
"the only diversity that seems to count is racial/ethnic diversity."
I explained why that's not true. And you pivoted to explaining why that particular type of diversity is wrong to seek, without really pausing to back up this statement.
It is clear that race/ethnicity is a major factor in admissions
This is a backpeddal, but still not 'clear' at all. I mean, look at the demographics of who is getting admitted to elite institutions still. Seems like there are other, stronger, factors at work!
"This is a backpeddal, but still not ‘clear’ at all. I mean, look at the demographics of who is getting admitted to elite institutions still. Seems like there are other, stronger, factors at work!"
What a silly comment. Of course there are other factors. The point is that race is one of them, consciously so. And artificially so, since there is no inherent reason why race (as opposed to, say, grades) should be taken into account.
So this, your second backpedal, I agree with.
"the only diversity that seems to count is racial/ethnic diversity" -> "race/ethnicity is a major factor" -> "race is one [factor], consciously so."
Glad we got there at last!
It's only a backpedal because you are ignoring what I am saying.
Race is the only factor that is justified by "diversity." No one denies that, for example, higher grades give one a better chance of being admitted to any university, certainly an elite one. But that is not a "diversity" factor.
And it is clear that being of certain races/ethnicities (however they might be arbitrarily defined) gives one a distinct advantage in admissions. As we used to say, black skin is worth 200 SAT points.
Of course other factors are taken into account. As between the straight A black student and the B-average black student, Harvard will take the former. That part is not controversial, and certainly not illegal.
So here is the issue: do you agree, or disagree, that certain racial/ethinic boxes give one a distinct advantage in admissions to Harvard and UNC, the two litigants before SCOTUS today?
Race is the only factor that is justified by “diversity.” No one denies that, for example, higher grades give one a better chance of being admitted to any university, certainly an elite one. But that is not a “diversity” factor.
You said nothing above about diversity factors previously; you talked about race being 'all that counts' with no conditional attached.
But even if you had, his is not better. What kind of distinction are you making between diversity factors and non-diversity factors? Harvard doesn't make such a distinction. The case here doesn't make such a distinction - it's about one factor among many factors, not many diversity factors.
To add to the confusion, I believe there is a diversity statement required for admissions; does that count as a factor?
Seems like you're making an arbitrary grouping, looking only at this grouping, and getting angry at how arbitrary it looks.
You said nothing above about diversity factors previously; you talked about race being ‘all that counts’ with no conditional attached.
Lying when you are easily disproven is a bad tactic.
The original statement I made, which you even quoted in one of your posts (and claimed that I backpedaled from) was:
"the only diversity that seems to count is racial/ethnic diversity."
Which clearly means, a factor that is justified on the basis of "diversity." You know, to comply with the law and SCOTUS's decision in Bakke.
No one has to, nor have they tried, to justify higher grades as a plus factor in admissions on the basis of "diversity." Nor is there anything in the Civil Rights Act that prevents it.
Once again, you are arguing dishonestly, and "beating up on a straw man." That ends our conversation.
You started saying diversity was a major factor, and now it's just a factor.
You're *still* focusing on it like it's the whole shebang! Even as you seem to know it's not from your backpedalling.
Anyhow, I think we've gotten what we can out of you refining your thesis. I still have issues with your legal and policy takes, but at least your facts are something I can walk with.
Sorry, BL, you're totally wrong.
the only diversity that seems to count is racial/ethnic diversity
Wrong. Harvard's brief talks about all kinds of other diversity that they seek: geographic, interest, background, economic, educational, experiential, ideological, religious, athletic ability, probably others I'm forgetting.
THe schools may be “into” accepting people of diverse background, but there is no systematic ranking of people based on background.
False twice. Harvard does not systemically "rank" people based on race / ethnicity, but they do on nationality / geography, athletics, and interest.
If your “point” is that all right wingers are closet racists, then you have proven nothing. It is clear that race/ethnicity is a major factor in admissions, and that the Civil Rights Act on its face forbids it. That’s the issue.
Haha snort, you made me choke on my coffee. The Supreme Court already said it's legal, so that's no argument. Anyway, there's no way that you can convince anyone, yourself included, that the reason you and others on the right are all spun up is that this is a technical violation of the Civil Rights Act. Don't make me laugh. You've got a White Grievance and you're going to milk it for all it's worth!
Race is the only factor that is justified by “diversity.”
Wrong again, see above.
OR you missed the first consequence that resulted from your view of things: Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas defended all-black schools, saying one cannot assume something is “inferior” because it is “predominantly one group or another.”
“My high school was not inferior. My neighborhood was not inferior. My church was not inferior. My family was not inferior. I have never believed it, and I never will,”
I would be surprised to learn that Clarence Thomas' childhood neighborhood was not inferior. Lousy schools, an uneducated population, economic inadequacy, substandard medical facilities, and the like are the attributes of an inferior community.
Well said, George Lincoln Rockwell Jr. !
I don't think I agree with even one thing you've posted
So while making race immutable and obvious you are however able to smell out a 'right-winger' by nose? And these are all folks who have 'right wing' somewhere emblazoned on their body so you know you are correct.
W@OW
Nope, BL is right. “But it is only racial diversity that is systematically employed.” Harvard admissions officers get daily memos on how many of each racial groups they have admitted. They don’t get anything like that for any other aspect of diversity.
Not since Gratz_v._Bollinger.
The district court found, and the circuit court agreed, that the daily memos aren’t directly used for admissions purposes.
Those numbers have to be reported out by law as you know, David.
Your duplicitousness on this issue is really shocking. Most of the commenters here are just going along with the Fox News talking points, i.e. they can blame ignorance. But you’ve read the opinions and the briefs, and yet you’re totally willing to lie about them to serve your agenda of… book sales? What is it that’s driving you so crazy about this case?
You are getting tiresome. The numbers have to be reported by law. Individual admissions officers never need to seem them, by law. The ONLY reason you would give these to admissions officers daily is to track "progress" on meeting minority admissions goals, and consistently remind the officers that they need to attend to race to make sure those goals are being pursued vigorously. I don't know what "directly used" means in this context, but they certainly are used in the sense that everyone can see if the numbers aren't "looking good" and can adjust their admissions decisions accordingly.
Well, the district court and the circuit court disagreed with you. But I'm the one getting tiresome, when you're running around spouting idiotic claims that are at odds with the findings?
This was even specifically adjudicated by the Supreme Court already in Grutter. From the First Circuit:
The Grutter majority held that the "consultation of the 'daily reports,' which keep track of the racial and ethnic composition of the class" does not "'sugges[t] there was no further attempt at individual review save for race itself' during the final stages of the admissions process."
So, let's look first at this blatant lie of yours:
Harvard admissions officers get daily memos on how many of each racial groups they have admitted. They don’t get anything like that for any other aspect of diversity.
From the First Circuit, which I have to assume you've read:
Admissions officers are provided, from time to time, with summaries containing demographic information. These "one-pagers" provide a snapshot of various demographic characteristics of Harvard's applicant pool and admitted class and compares them to the previous year. In addition to race, these sheets summarize the applicant pool on a variety of other dimensions (e.g., gender, geographic region, intended concentration, legacy status, whether a student applied for financial aid, etc.).
Then you've got this boner:
The ONLY reason you would give these to admissions officers daily is to track “progress” on meeting minority admissions goals, and consistently remind the officers that they need to attend to race to make sure those goals are being pursued vigorously.
You're just making shit up when there's a whole record to look at. The First Circuit gives these reasons for the reports:
Harvard's witnesses testified that they used one-pagers
for three main reasons: (1) to assess how well its diversity
recruitment efforts (e.g., via UMRP and HFAI) were working; (2) to
manage its yield rates; and (3) to avoid drop offs in students
with particular characteristics due to inadvertence or lack of
care.
So, you know, perhaps try to remember that in the future!
Just to be super-crisp, here's the First Circuit talking about the District Court's conclusions, with which it agreed:
It found that Harvard's admissions office's use of "one-pagers" did not evidence racial balancing.
I mean, "It found that Harvard’s admissions office’s use of “one-pagers” did not evidence racial balancing." is directly contradicted by "Harvard’s witnesses testified that they used one-pagers for three main reasons: (1) to assess how well its diversity recruitment efforts (e.g., via UMRP and HFAI) were working; (2) to manage its yield rates; and (3) to avoid drop offs in students with particular characteristics due to inadvertence or lack of care." But you do you.
If anyone but me – David included – would care to read the actual opinion, you would understand.
First, recruitment efforts are in-bounds even if use of race in admissions decisions themselves are not.
Second, the part about estimating yield is mostly about non-race factors. But even if it were about race, it’s not about deciding who to admit, it’s just about estimating capacity.
And avoiding drop-offs is a quality-assurance measure, like I said before. It’s about understanding where the process has gone off the rails before it’s too late and you have a 100% female class. The mitigation is not to just blindly admit a bunch of boys at that point. It’s to go back and fix the process.
Everyone agrees that the process is intended to result in a minimal amount of diverse students. So as long as the process is constitutional, fixing the process to achieve the desired result is also constitutional.
This has been the conclusion of all courts. So, I mean you and David are welcome to your hot takes, but they contradict all known facts.
Treating statistical disparities as having "gone off the rails" is precisely the point!
Precisely what point? It's not "racial balancing." That's the point.
Right, it's just looking at who, broken down by race, has been admitted, and using that information to determine if things need to be tweaked to get a different, more desired, breakdown. But totally not racial balancing.
Yep, you got it right!
And everything I’ve read about admissions suggests that being seen as right of center, ie adding ideological diversity, can only hurt you. That pretty much blows up the diversity rationale right there. And if the Grutter thing was in response to my last post, yes, the record in the Harvard case shows they get such daily updates.
So you pivoted from race to ideology here.
The issue I had was you saying BL was right. Because he said this: "there is no systematic ranking of people based on background [like there is on race.]"
You and I (and not BL I guess) both know that such a ranking based on race would be illegal. Harvard is not so dumb as that.
You are getting hung up on the word "ranking." Being of the right race gives one an advantage in admissions, all other things being equal. And as Bernstein writes, they make a conscience effort to achieve a particular racial mix, which inevitably will lead to advantaging people by race.
Being of the right race gives one an advantage in admissions, all other things being equal
This was not your original thesis. It's a much weaker statement.
But it is one I cannot disagree with, though your 'right race' framing is not how I'd say it.
And, as I told Prof. Bernstein, they are not allowed to make a conscious effort to maintain a certain race mix under current caselaw.
"They are not allowed" does not equal "they don't do it."
You think Harvard is secretly breaking SCOTUS caselaw as to admissions?
You'll need evidence for that, chief.
You’ll need evidence for that, chief.
That's precisely what David gave you. He pointed out that they circulate memos giving numbers of each race accepted. You do that "to make a conscious effort to maintain a certain race mix." You've just chosen to ignore it or interpret it in a different way.
But Harvard doesn't seem to maintain a certain race mix over the years.
So whatever that memo is doing (and I don't love it), it's not creating a quota system.
This is all laid out in the district court opinion, which found that the "memos" were absolutely not used to "maintain a certain race mix."
The memos are a preview of the data that Harvard is required by law to submit to the federal government. The purpose is to know in advance what those numbers look like and how they're trending, since they don't want any surprises. If something looks totally bonkers, they don't just start trying to "fix" it by admitting more or less of one race or another in order to get the numbers to "come out right." Instead, they investigate the root cause of the anomaly.
Which will inevitably lead to the opposite as Thomas Sowell has documented. A Black gets into a high-class school, does poorly and ends up worse than if he'd gone to a different school where he would have flourished. HAPPENS ALL THE TIME
And if he makes it in the high class place he is forever treated as if he were what he is because he is black and got a free ride.
Even wonder why people call Clarence conservative but Ketanji Black !!!
Anyone that uses affirmative action to say an individual black person doesn't deserve to be where they are is themselves to blame, not affirmative action.
And while I often disagree with Thomas Sowell, in this he is absolutely right. But this is not a fatal issue to affirmative action policies; it only means we need to look at integrating a support structure into those efforts.
Bored Lawyer, I read your comments with interest. May I ask you a question? Where are you coming out on this? I get the impression that you would do away with race-based preferences (like affirmative action) on the basis that a) it ain't in the Constitution, and b) this diversity question ignores socio-economic status of individuals, among other things (your Korean and affluent African-American examples).
I am genuinely curious.
Not 100% sure what you are asking. I will interpret it to mean, what do I think is the best policy?
Which is, do away with racial/ethinic affirmative action. You can implement socio-economic affirmative action, which has the advantage of targeting those most in need, and not violating the law. (Not the Constitution, Harvard is a private actor. The Civil Rights Act.) You can also give advantages to those who genuinely had different experiences than the typical college admitee, like growing up in a foreign country.
George Will once made an analogy to certain Olympic sports (gymnastics and figure skating, maybe diving too) where the competitors are ranked on their performance by judges. One factor is "degree of difficulty." If a skater performs a very basic routine perfectly, he or she may not do as well as a skater that does a complex routine well, albeit not perfectly.
A kid who grew up in a poor neighborhood with no father, worked hard, and did well, but not straight A's, in school, impresses me more than a kid whose parents could afford an elite private school, and who got straight A's. Giving the first kid points for "degree of difficulty" is something that I think most people can accept. And it has the advantages of (a) not bringing race into it and (b) not being something inherited. If that kid grows up and becomes succesful, his kids will not get the advantage of his poor background.
You nailed it perfectly; you answered my question. Thanks for that. FWIW, I agree = A kid who grew up in a poor neighborhood with no father, worked hard, and did well, but not straight A’s, in school, impresses me more than a kid whose parents could afford an elite private school, and who got straight A’s. Giving the first kid points for “degree of difficulty” is something that I think most people can accept. And it has the advantages of (a) not bringing race into it and (b) not being something inherited. If that kid grows up and becomes successful, his kids will not get the advantage of his poor background.
I feel the same way.
C_XY,
I can tell you how I applied affirmative action in hiring and in awarding scholarships.
I will start by noting that my field has about 20% women in professional positions; in the US percentages of blacks and Hispanics are much lower.
in hiring:
I always read through all applications from women. If the cover letter showed genuine interest and potential aptitude, I asked HR to compile full supporting documentation. From that point they had to compete on an even basis.
Men had to compete on a nearly even basis. URMs did have a slight advantage in getting invited for an interview.
All interviewees were judged on potential to be promoted to a senior scientist/engineer level.
For scholarships, my first priority was to raise sufficient money so that I never had to say no to a student with genuine interest. In judging that interest based on past activities, I valued demonstration dedication to a chosen field of work or study to directly relevant experience. Overall that choice favored women to get a scholarship on my first pass through the list of applicants. Eventually, I almost never had to say decline a student with genuine interest as I know that I could raise more money to replenish dipping into my reserve funds.
Don Nico....Appreciate the comments on how it works in real life. I sort of do the same things on the private side (in business), perhaps a little differently (I have to deal with BigCorp HR, and their policy limitations) = I always read through all applications from women [edit: also minorities, or disadvantaged]. If the cover letter showed genuine interest and potential aptitude, I asked HR to compile full supporting documentation. From that point they had to compete on an even basis.
I have not run into problems, yet. But it is a formidable thicket of issues to contend with, in hiring (and firing).
" And everything I’ve read about admissions suggests that being seen as right of center, ie adding ideological diversity, can only hurt you. "
Is it being "right of center" that might disfavor a candidate, or instead
gullibility (believing Earth to be a few thousand years old, or storks to be delivering babies),
ignorance (claiming evolution to be a hoax, or the moon to be made of green cheese),
bigotry (gay-bashing of any provenance, or being a Klan member),
and similar factors?
Being a Marxist is a big plus, even though that is the biggest fairy tale ever foisted on humanity.
"Admissions is not nowadays generally based on a systemic ranking, after some recent Supreme Court rules regarding the inclusion of race in such a system."
Oh, be serious for once. Of course admissions today are based on systematic rankings. They're just based on covert, because illegal, systematic rankings. This "holistic" bullshit is just an excuse for lying about how they make the decisions.
No, Brett, this is not another liberal conspiracy you have uncovered with your amazing intuition and scanty evidence, as you do.
I am serious; you remain ridiculous.
Purely coincidence that touchy feelly holistic admissions systems reliably reproduce the same numbers as a quota, year in and year out. Am I right?
reliably reproduce the same numbers as a quota
Um, where do you get that from?
You just described Barry, I mean Barak Insane Osama.
I do not think race is the only type of diversity "systematically employed" in admissions. They also use geography (e.g. state of origin), age, and gender. For example, MIT has made great strides in nurturing women in STEM.
https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/mits-fight-against-gender-discrimination-in-stem/
This isn't entirely true. Schools do take these things into consideration (at least the ones I've worked for) and they include them in subjective admissions scoring systems. There are a variety of legitimate ways this is done. One method I'm familiar with, for example, is to recalculate GPAs based solely core curriculum and tossing all the fluff you sometimes see added by wealthier schools that have the funds to teach non-core topics. That often eliminates quite a few "A" grades and lets the admissions team compare students from poorer districts equitably. Admissions teams also look for hardship stories because overcoming these things while still doing well academically is indicative of hard work and improves the chance of someone graduating. And all the warm-fuzzies aside, that's the core goal to freshman admissions--likelihood to graduate in 4-6 years. Graduation numbers are a key component of school rankings for non-elite schools.
Republicans and conservatives do not seem to be aware (or refrain from acknowledging) that many strong schools have long admitted students from backward and bigoted states -- Wyoming, Oklahoma, Alabama, and the like -- to promote diversity, ostensibly disadvantaging candidates from successful, educated, modern, diverse jurisdictions.
Keep up the sneering. It's going to do great at the polls next Tuesday!
It hasn't prevented my side from winning the culture war for so long as I have been alive, and then some, so I will take my chances on favoring education, modernity, reason, science, and the other pillars of the elite (and mainstream) liberal-libertarian worldview.
The culture war can only exist because we are a democracy. One side has figured out that jettisoning democracy can win them the culture war.
"nontraditional backgrounds generally"
Lots of Harvard students from small towns in Ohio or farms in rural Iowa, eh?
Can't speak specifically to Harvard, but 'I grew up as a farmer and now want to study physics' or whatever is absolutely a value add story.
"value add story"
Yet "elite" schools don't have these students.
(I leave why as an exercise to the reader)
That's not how statistics work, but OK chief.
Don't have what students? Small town kids who make it to the elite school? I was one, and I knew plenty more. The kid from Alaska was weird as heck--genius though.
That's great for you. Yet we actually have Harvard official [on their web site] list of admissions by state and very few come from rural or most "red" states.
Missouri had none!
New England
16.6%
Middle Atlantic
22.3%
South
17.8%
Midwest
9.8%
Central
2.0%
Mountain
3.2%
Pacific
13.4%
Territories
0.2%
International
14.8%
Fewer from Midwest, Central and Mountain combined than New England.
Missouri had none, Arkansas 2, Mississippi 4
Really reaching, Bob.
Huh... I wonder if location relative to parents has anything to do with that? Almost like a lot of students prefer to go to more affordable schools closer to their existing support network.
Also, Shawn, guess where most of the population resides?
Wait, wait... is it the South with that 17.8%? /s
Bet you the %s are not the same as the distribution of applications received.
Harvard talks about in their brief that they give an "affirmative action" boost (my words not theirs) to parts of the country like the midwest. Otherwise Harvard would be all New York and Boston kids with a few from California. So congrats Bob! Your kids can benefit from AA after all!
They do. But geographic balancing pales in comparison (no pun intended) to racial balancing. Race — the right race — is worth far more than any other aspect of collective identity for applicants. (Obviously, give tens of millions to the school and you can buy your kid's way in *cough*Jared*cough*, but that's an individual thing, not a collective one.) Legacy gives one a boost, as does being an athlete, but being black is worth significantly more than either of those.
Evidence?
S_0,
It is only value-added IF the farmchild saturated its local school system. (Straight A's and superlative recommendation letters)
On the contrary, those are separate factors considered independently, not conditionally.
Do you believe that blacks who get into Harvard are getting B's?
This is where focusing on elite "ivy league" schools does the whole conversation an injustice. Ivey league schools can easily attract and admit (but maybe not matriculate) people from anywhere in the world, from any ethnicity, race, or gender. When it comes to African American admissions, they hoover up the cream of the crop. Non-ivy schools have a tougher time meeting diversity goals as a result. Harvard's admits are all competing over and above their high school GPAs, which are all going to appear very similar. As more schools drop ACT/SAT scores for undergraduate admissions, the results will get even more opaque. Harvard makes ACT/SAT optional at the moment.
I like this point.
There have been states with a lot of success in 'must admit' regimes in their state school systems.
And part of the issue is how important it is to go to this small number of schools, versus a broader, and dare I say *more diverse* set.
There are 8 (or 12, depending on who you ask) ivy league schools in the US. Assuming 12 for this exercise, divide that by the number of universities in the country and you get .003% (rounding up.) All of this drama over how .003% of the universities in the country admit students; like this rarified set of private schools is somehow more critical than the 4300+ other schools educating our students or even representative of them. That’s like saying a Rolls Royce is representative of all cars.
I don't like drama, but in this case it is well placed - our national leadership, both in government and industry, comes quite largely from these elite schools.
That kind of power is worth drama-ing about.
It's not a solution exactly, but it would lower the hear nicely to quit overlooking non-Rollses in these positions.
1) There are 8. Maybe there are 4 other schools that think they are the academic equivalent of Ivy League schools (and they may be right, and better than a safety school like Penn). But they are not Ivy League schools.
2) Yes, they are a very small percentage of schools — but they are the elite, where a massively disproportionate share of our elites come from.
S_0,
Why don't you address the comment rather than changing to your race-based comment as a diversion?
"On the contrary, those are separate factors considered independently, not conditionally."
By the way, how do you, know that? Again you are talking through your hat.
How do I know that schools don't only look to diversity criteria for white people only after they're assured they have A's? (And presumably doesn't do that for blacks...)
Harvard says so - they explain their admissions process on their admissions website.
Hasn't changed much from when I tried to get in back in the day.
"Do you believe that blacks who get into Harvard are getting B’s?"
It is highly probable that some are. That is also true of white students.
I suppose that's on me - of course there is the occasional B. But as you concede, academic excellence is present in all the racial cohorts being admitted.
S_0,
You really and maybe even purposely missed the original point. That anyone who saturates the system that they were in show be given a hard look. People may blow off a kid with A's and only A's from a nondescript small rural school. But they shouldn't. I have seen exactly that issue come up in graduate admissions.
That was my point, but you tried to make it into a comment about race.
So where is the evidence that these admissions policies had the desired effect?
Which desired effect do you want? The students and faculty shutting out opinions and ideas that send them crawling to their safe spaces?
Mission accomplished!
I linked this above also, but here's a success story about MIT consciously nurturing women in STEM. Seems relevant here too.
https://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/mits-fight-against-gender-discrimination-in-stem/
MIT has made such a conscious effort and has been successful. I have seen no gender-based disparity in the quality of MIT undergrads or graduate students
This is a strange question. The desired effect is that the student body is diverse. It's sort of self-fulfilling.
The arbitrariness really shows the way to win, even if racial equality fails at court. Everybody should just claim African American/Black on the application. Harvard has a problem with that, then they can hire private investigators to determine who's really black enough to be """diverse."""
The movie Soul Man outlines just that. Portrait of a rational actor responding to incentives. Admission and scholarship money for being 'black'? That's what you will get.
and so bogus that anyone would take him for a (Redacted)he looked like Greg Brady with a Suntan.
Disaffected, downscale, grievance-consumed, obsolete conservatives are among my favorite culture war casualties.
King of adjectives speaks.
Hey "Rev", I mean Jerry, heard you missed me, I'm back.
Still clogging up the Internets at https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
I see,
Frank "1/2 Jewish (the good 1/2)"
Mengele is back, so it appears, still revealing himself to be a bigoted gobshite.
But that backfires most in the eyes of the racists who are supposedly being countered by this: Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas defended all-black schools , saying one cannot assume something is “inferior” because it is “predominantly one group or another.”
“My high school was not inferior. My neighborhood was not inferior. My church was not inferior. My family was not inferior. I have never believed it, and I never will,”
I don't believe his high school, neighborhood, church, or family discriminated on the basis of race. If they did, then they'd also have to draw up criteria. A school being "all-black" is no more or less interesting than it being all-tall or all curly hair. And when we talk loosely categories like "tall," "curly hair" or "black" are nebulous and open to interpretation. That's no big deal so long as these are informal social descriptors. When they have actual legal relevance you have to define them so the law knows who is on what side of the line, in this case who is and is not a member of the melanin nobility. It's the left who considers race important not the right, who believes in racial equality. If we stop caring about race, then neither Harvard nor the courts have to worry about who's black and who's not. Let's start today. In America, race is as obsolete as nobility let's start acting like it.
Anytime someone claims themselves to be something, like "the rational" it's almost never true.
Amazing the amount of animosity and hate you "anti-racists" have for a black man (or any black person) who doesn't conform to your ideology. Fucking racist.
Nothing says "set up to succeed in life" like a school so poor it cannot afford working computers or broadband in a computer lab. But hey, if Thomas thinks that kind of school isn't inferior for students studying STEM topics, I guess he must be right? And nothing will get you that kind of school faster than a county that funds schools by the property taxes paid within the school's district.
Basically every leftist = hey man racism is all cool and stuff because this is working for the right people who belong to the race we currently prefer for various (mostly mythical) reasons.
"Currently prefer" .... I get it. But let's flip that on its head. What if I suggested that undoing historic racism is merely a societal exercise in "extracting more excellence from existing untapped human resources"? That *is* what a nation is supposed to be doing, right?
everything I’ve read about admissions suggests that being seen as right of center, ie adding ideological diversity, can only hurt you
If so, that's messed up. But what are you reading?!
I will admit that what I hear is almost entirely about background/life experience, not ideology.
So you could be right, but conservative applicants not getting admitted to elite schools due to their ideology seems quite a claim to me.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying conservatives are "excluded." I'm saying that experts in the admissions process tell us that you get less credit for doing "conservative" things than for "progressive" things, and the likelihood someone would give you a plus for adding ideological diversity is less than the likelihood someone would discriminate against you for that reason.
Interestingly, and relatedly, the Comm App's activity list has a specific heading for "social justice" activities, none for "charitable." Conservatives are much more likely to think of themselves as engaging in the latter rather than the former, and I'm also pretty confident that you'd be making a huge error if you put "leafletting pro-life literature outside abortion clinics" as a social justice activity, even if you think it is.
Professor Bernstein, just want to say that I appreciate your willingness to engage with VC commentariat. This layman learns a lot from reading the exchanges. These are fascinating questions to me, and I know it isn't always fun engaging.
Does Israel's example come into play here? Is there an 'Israeli' version of affirmative action? I have not ever read anything in ToI or JPost that really addresses that question squarely.
Israel has affirmative action for "minorities" (Arabs, Bedouin, Circassians, maybe Druze(?)) for government employment and certain educational fields like medicine. For non-Beduoin Arabs in particular, affirmative action in government employment is needed because army service is so crucial, and few Arabs volunteer. For all non-Jewish groups, most Israeli towns are one ethnicity or another, so the idea is that if you don't have enough Arab Israeli doctors, there won't be enough doctors to serve Arab towns, though plenty of Arab doctors work in Jewish areas.
you get less credit for doing “conservative” things than for “progressive” things, and the likelihood someone would give you a plus for adding ideological diversity is less than the likelihood someone would discriminate against you for that reason.
Whew; that makes a lot more sense.
I don't think it's very surprising that 'conservative' things have a harder time fitting into diversity narratives, because diversity is not part of the conservative philosophy.
As for ideological diversity not being part of admissions, that doesn't really show the disingenuousness of the project; it's a pretty content neutral choice to make as to what constitutes diversity for this project. It could be a bad choice (I don't know how I feel about ideology being a thing to look at for people are still in high school), but that doesn't mean it's a decision made in bad faith.
'Diversity' is not part of the conservative philosophy because 'diversity' is only relevant to the collective. The conservative philosophy prioritizes the individual over the collective.
So the conservative philosophy can strongly agree with the helping disadvantaged kids using the kind of "degree of difficulty" scoring described in Bored Lawyer's comment above while considering discrimination based on inherent attributes (in either direction) to be anathema.
I don't think diversity is a collectivist concept.
But why is also not material to my point.
Yet discrimination based on inherent attributes, at least for Black and Latino students, is likely to be one of the root causes of their disadvantage. A conservative who agrees with helping the disadvantaged but is "race blind" isn't going to be much help for those disadvantaged by racism as they would lack the empathy and understanding necessary to provide effective help.
If an individual person is disadvantaged, whether because they are black or handicapped or for any other reason, the "conservative who agrees with helping the disadvantaged" will in fact help them. What our hypothetical person will not do is assume that merely because they are black, they must have been disadvantaged.
But what are you reading?!
Not the same stuff that you "hear about" "informally" from all of your many "non-business" dealings with admissions personnel. Sarcastr0's evidence for just about everything seems to boil down to "anonymous sources told me".
"Sarcastr0’s evidence for just about everything seems to boil down to “anonymous sources told me”."
Best kind of authority is non-verifiable authority.
No one has said anything I'm saying contradicts their understanding.
Though yet again your constant seeing liars everywhere says a lot about how you go through life.
"Best kind of authority is non-verifiable authority."
The fuel of basically every anti-Trump story since 2015. But, hey, when you are in "get Trump" mode anything goes including just making up lies that are then generating more lies that then produce more lies. What is "truth" when there is the greatest evil of all -Trump!
So why is it so important that certain groups (e.g., blacks) be represented at their proportion of the US population, but other groups (e.g., Christians, conservatives) not be? Justice Kagan said at oral argument today that these universities want to "look like America." But they don't, really.
And differences in intelligence can barely explain the gap. Consider the Wordsum question on the GSS, for example, which is highly correlated with IQ. Conservatives are 35.6% of persons scoring 10/10 (top 5%), compared to 34.4% of all respondents. Similarly, white Christians are 72% of 10/10 scorers compared to 81% of all respondents. But how many conservatives and white Christians are at these schools? If they really cared about "diversity" for the reasons that they claim then they would give preferences to those groups.
Seems you can't have vibrant HBCUs and equal representation at non-HBCUs--and we should, as a society, be supporting HBCUs, which came about as a result of de jure segregation.
and have much better Step Teams than BYU or Dartmouth.
"Justice Kagan said at oral argument today that these universities want to “look like America.” But they don’t, really."
Kagan is white, just like most kids from a small town in Ohio. So in a picture, those two look like the same slice of America.
But of course she is from NYC, the child of a lawyer and Jewish. All categories over represented at Ivy schools and most kids from a small town in Ohio are none of those things.
I mean, I am generally on the anti-AA side, but arguing that there aren't enough white Christians at elite schools is so loony tunes as to be discrediting.
Okay. So how many are there now? And what is the correct number?
Head over to IPEDS (Google it) and have a look. Note that statistics on religious faith aren't tracked which means that if a student doesn't somehow claim a specific faith, admissions personnel are unlikely to know it--with the obvious exception of religious schools.
For a private school, the "right number" is a balance of what their internal preferences are and whether they want federal loans and grants for their students.
If you're actually curious and not just being argumentative, when you review universities in IPEDS, you should find African American numbers around 8% as generally on the higher end of the scale. Harvard, for example, is 7%. Brigham Young University is less than half a percent.
Technically speaking, White Christians are underrepresented at elite schools. Compared to the US population as a whole. Using Harvard as a template case, of course.
Just looking at the latest Pew polls and census Demographics, Whites make up 59% of the US population, and 70% self report as Christian.
Looking at the Harvard Crimson self reported stats, the incoming class (2017 I believe) was 61% white. But the number of self reported Christians (Catholic + Protestant + Mormon) was somewhere in the area of 45%. Roughly speaking there were only 2/3rds as many White Christians at Harvard as there should be, when compared to the US population as a whole.
So it the assumption "loony" based on the available statistics? No, not at all. If you want Harvard to "look like" the US as a whole.
Why did you use the word technically?
As you continued to write, you seem to argue that these statistics get at the heart of the matter.
"Why did you use the word technically"
If...as I wrote...you compare the Harvard population to the US population as a whole...then what was proposed is technically accurate. It may not feel accurate to Senor Nieporent, because he doesn't have a proper understanding of the incoming student body of Harvard and/or the actual population dynamics of the US. But it is, nevertheless, accurate. Not "loony"
In the article you've spelt "Turkmen" "Turkman".
UNC totally blew it not having 1/1024th Native Injun Lizzie Borden, I mean Warren present their case.
MLB Commissioner needs to kick both Astros/Phillies out of the World Series, as neither have any "African Amuricans"
What is Dusty Baker, Mengele?
Thanks for making my point, seeing as how he retired from playing in 1986, you know, when there were alot more Afro-Amuricans playing MLB ball (loved the 77' Dodgers, outfield of Reggie Smith, Dusty Baker, and Burning-Flag-Saver Rick Monday (Lefty BTW), Davy Lopes at Second (also played some in CF, look it up)
"Thanks for making my point"
which is:
'neither have any “African Amuricans”'
As usual, Mengele, your gormlessness stands out. The claim you made is clearly false. The Astros have at least two black Americans on the field in every game. Had your point been that there are few black Americans on major league teams you should have said that instead of what you ignorantly claimed. Also ignorant is your implication that the paucity of black Americans on the two WS teams is due to some sort of misbehavior on the part of these teams.
Don't the decisionmakers have to be pure as the driven snow--how, for example, could someone who says the ridiculous, "White silence = violence" ever have a say in admissions? What about people who yap endlessly about white privilege? What about the 88 profs who signed the letter supporting Nifong?
This seems relevant to the discussion:
https://features.thecrimson.com/2016/freshman-survey/lifestyle/
A self selection survey. Very relevant.
11% say they voted for Gary Johnson!
Sure does not "look like America."
40% are agnostic or atheists.
65% are left of center (very liberal or somewhat liberal) as opposed to 15% who are right of center (very or somewhat conservative).
80% (almost) voted for Clinton; only 6.2% for Trump. (One label says 2020, the other 2016, so there is some sloppiness here.)
I guess "looks like America" is literal, means only skin deep.
You wouldn't expect it to look like America. You'd expect it to look like Americans who are 18-22 years old. Or, more precisely, you'd expect it to look like very intelligent and successful 18-22 year olds.
I mean, I'm guessing union membership is near 0% too. And not a single person collects social security. Does that mean they need to fix admissions?
They justify it based on "looks like America," not me.
And while you are right that it is only a subset of Americans that even apply to college, do you seriously think that 65% of same are left of center? Or 40% atheists or agnostics?
Is that why they have the 18% Asian quota? So Asians are far less likely than blacks to be among the most successful 18-22 year olds?
Yes, if you define "Most Successful" as playing Varsity College Football/Basketball, Rapping, or Committing Violent Crimes.
The remaining question is whether any of the Justices will express interest in the classifications at oral argument today and ultimately in their opinions, or whether the debate continue on its previous trajectory, accepting the classifications as a given and only discussing whether diversity is a compelling government interest and what universities must do to satisfy that compelling interest.
Or more likely, they realize that you're full of shit since Harvard doesn't even use these classifications in their admissions process.
The fact that you continue to peddle this strawman is grotesque. You're very aware that it's false. But it probably helps with book sales.
I wonder if you can be done on "conspiracy to defraud the United States" for your amicus brief.
It's… not false.
I think it's RICO.
If affirmative action was merely a tie breaker, most people wouldn't care much. It's the fact that black students are egregiously underqualified compared to white and Asian students that piss people off.
Here you go David, here's what your lies have wrought. Have fun with your fanboys!
It's not a lie. If you're white or Asian, to get into Harvard, you need a 1550+ SAT and you need to be perfect in nearly every other respect, and even then only have a 1/4 chance at getting in. If you're black, a 1400 basically guarantees you admission. This flows downstream and through law schools too.
To get into top 5 law schools you need a 170 if you're white or Asian. If you're black, you can get in with a 163.
Harvard is test-optional. That means you do not need to submit an SAT or ACT score at all.
Yeah, and why do you suppose they decided to become test-optional, anyway? To stop producing statistical evidence like that.
Merit was getting in the way of meeting their racial quotas, and measuring merit was documenting that they were discriminating on the basis of race. So they decided they'd stop measuring it.
Oh my god.
Truth hurts
It's just all so pathetic. As if people on the left and in academia's highest priority is to piss you guys off. I know that's how you all see the world with "own the libs" as your defining principle, which is sad by the way, but not everyone thinks like that. We've got better things to do. I wish you did too! A soul is a terrible thing to waste.
And that's why even "conservatives" like George W. Bush moved over to the top 10% of every high school gets automatically into the flagship U Texas campus. The problem is, the top 10% in an all-black high school are functionally retarded, and are less academically qualified than the bottom 20% of many upper middle class white suburban high schools.
Funny (not like a Clown, should have said "Ironic"(Dontcha think?) that it's the "Woke" crowd laughing hardest at Saturday Night Live portraying #34 (I know his name, but in Georgia we call him "#34") as a babbling Step N' Fetch-in Knee-Grow.
Speaking of Knee-Grows, when did Barry Hussein have a stroke?? H-H-H-He makes Stuttering John Fetterman sound like William H. Buckley....
Frank "Did I S-S-S-stutter?"
Like Herschel Walker ??????? Must be true, that Hah-Vud Grad who's grades are State Secrets Barry Insane in the Membrane Osama said so!
Remember the "Sopranos" episode where Tony's daughter was dating the Black/Jewish "Noah", Tony asked him about his ethnicity and then what he put on his Application to Columbia...
Guy (Noah) was such a big A-hole was hoping he'd get the Vito (Spatafore, not Corleone) treatment, until I realized they're both just (really good) Actors.
Just reading transcript where Kavanaugh asks UNC about David’s concern with coarse categories. Of course, UNC reveals David’s lies. Their admissions analysis doesn’t depend on the (federally mandated) Common Application categories, and their post-admissions diversity assessment also uses more granular categories.
Do not believe David Bernstein! He knows the truth both from reading the briefs and from previous comments on VC, but he keeps lying anyway I guess for attention.
JUSTICE KAVANAUGH: But if they honestly check one of the boxes, which one are they supposed to check?
MR. PARK: I — I do not — do not know the answer to that question. What I can say is that if a person from a Middle Eastern country self-discloses their country of origin, it would be considered in the same way that we consider any box that matches, you know, one of the boxes that’s available in the common application, which is it would be an individualized holistic analysis. And I can genuinely say that there would be a similar positive analysis in terms of the contribution that a student like that would contribute. And — and we do track, in particular, again, after the admissions process, religion and — and country of origin and that sort of thing.
Since no one is a pure genetic category the question is how government allots priorities.
Genome-wide ancestry estimates of African Americans show average proportions of 73.2% African, 24.0% European
So , do we have a hierarch of Blackness, from whatever to Octaroon? And if that European 25% is tilted to something even more egregiously minority might not Black fade into the legal background.
What I am saying is , all racial classification ends up with the same government that prosecutes race matters.