The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Rudy Giuliani's Motion to Dismiss Election Workers' Libel Lawsuit Denied
From Freeman v. Giuliani, decided today by Chief Judge Beryl Howell (D.D.C.); the court concluded that the facts as alleged by plaintiffs would, if proved, suffice to authorize liability—naturally, there's still question whether plaintiffs will introduce enough evidence to defeat an eventual motion for summary judgment, and whether they will eventually persuade a jury (or whether the case will settle in light of that possibility):
After the polls closed across the country on November 3, 2020—the first Presidential election in U.S. history to be conducted in the midst of a deadly global pandemic—the results in some states were immediately called, with either former Vice President Biden or then-President Trump declared the obvious winner. In other states, including Georgia, the margins of victory were substantially closer, and voters and candidates went to bed that night not knowing who had won. As days passed, local and state election officials diligently conducted the counting of absentee ballots and manual recounts, but the void of clear results became filled with increasingly outlandish paranoia from those claiming the election was being "stolen."
Defendant Rudolph Giuliani—a current media personality and former politician once dubbed "America's mayor"—propagated and pushed that false narrative. Caught in the crossfire of Giuliani's campaign to undermine the legitimacy of the 2020 election were plaintiffs Ruby Freeman and Wandrea ArShaye ("Shaye") Moss (collectively, "plaintiffs"). Freeman was a temporary election worker with the Fulton County Registration and Elections Department in Fulton County, Georgia during the 2020 general election, while Moss worked on Fulton County's absentee ballot operation. After Giuliani made a litany of statements and accusations against plaintiffs concerning their activities as election workers, Freeman and Moss initiated the instant lawsuit in December 2021, against Giuliani, and others, for[, among other things,] defamation ….
Giuliani's alleged statements accuse plaintiffs of criminal activity—which can be proven to be true or false in court—and, consequently, he cannot seek refuge under the opinion doctrine …. Even if Giuliani made clear that his statements were his own subjective views, those statements still included accusations of election fraud that can be verified as true or false. See, e.g., Am. Compl. ¶ 60 ("Ruby Freeman is seen surreptitiously & illegally handing off hard-drives"); ¶ 66 ("There's a video recording in Fulton County, Georgia, of what is obviously, without any doubt, the theft of votes…. [O]bservers are being thrown out of the room. A phony excuse of a water main break was used."); ¶ 69 ("Ruby Freeman and her crew getting everybody out of the center, creating a false story that there was a— that there was a water main break"); ¶ 72 ("[T]hey got rid of the public, and they started triple counting ballots[.]"); ¶ 91 ("Now you take the two women who ran that, there are other tapes of them earlier in the day, handing off—handing off small, hard drives and flash drives, those flash drives were used to put in the machines[.]"); ¶ 99 ("Then they opened up this big blanket and under all the whole, all these ballots and then with no one observing in violation of the law they very seriously tried to count all these votes."). The fact that Giuliani directs listeners to view the Edited Video for themselves is beside the point. If Giuliani falsely characterized plaintiffs' actions in the Edited Video, his statements are still actionable because they imply verifiably false facts….
Although whether Freeman is a private figure or a limited-purpose public figure is a relevant issue, Freeman has done all she must to do at this stage: allege that she is a private figure. The pleading burden on plaintiffs would be too onerous if they were required not only to anticipate whether a defendant would raise a limited-public-figure defense, but, on top of that, also to find and elicit facts before discovery that shed light on the defendant's state of mind to prove actual malice. For these reasons, a plaintiff does not have an "obligation to anticipate in its complaint the need to plead facts to defend against defendants' assertions that [she] is a public figure." …
Even assuming that Freeman were required affirmatively to plead she was not a limited-purpose public figure, and assuming, arguendo, that Freeman was a limited-purpose public figure (an issue this Court does not decide), Giuliani must still then show that Freeman did not plead sufficient facts to show he made statements regarding her purported criminal history with actual malice. Freeman has sufficiently pled those facts, so Giuliani's argument goes nowhere….
Freeman's actual-malice argument is as follows. First, the Strategic Plan expressly concedes that whether Freeman was arrested for voter or election fraud needed to be confirmed. Strategic Plan at 21 (emphasis added) ("Ruby Freeman (woman in purple shirt on video), now under arrest and providing evidence against GA SOS Stacey Abrams and DNC on advanced coordinated effort to commit voter / election fraud [need confirmation of arrest and evidence]."). On top of this, Giuliani concedes that public reporting had shown that there was no truth to the allegation that Freeman "had been arrested/had a criminal record regarding voting fraud" before Giuliani made his statements regarding Freeman. Def.'s Mot. at 47 (discussing an article by Snopes.com reporting that Freeman was not arrested for committing crimes related to election fraud in Georgia); see also Dan Evon, Ruby Freeman Was Not Arrested by the FBI, Snopes.com (Dec. 18, 2020), https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ruby-freeman-arrested-by-fbi/. Despite that lack of confirmation, on December 23, 2020—four days before when the plaintiffs allege the Strategic Plan was likely published—Giuliani publicly accused Freeman of having "a history of voter fraud participation." Am. Compl. ¶ 66. Plaintiffs also allege that Giuliani caused the publication of Trump's statement on January 2, 2021, when he called Freeman a "professional vote scammer" and "known scammer[.]" Id. ¶¶ 80–81.
Freeman has plausibly alleged Giuliani made statements about her criminal activity/history with actual malice. When taken together, these allegations at least plausibly suggest that Giuliani fabricated Freeman's arrest and criminal record out of whole cloth: Giuliani accused Freeman of election fraud before the Strategic Plan was allegedly published, even though the Strategic Plan (which Giuliani was at least plausibly an author) noted that the Trump Campaign still needed evidence that she was arrested for that very criminal activity. Cf. Zimmerman v. Al Jazeera Am., LLC, 246 F. Supp. 3d 257, 284 (D.D.C. 2017) (denying defendants' motion to dismiss on actual malice grounds in a defamation case because plaintiffs alleged that defendants "failed to uncover a single reported piece of evidence corroborating [the sole source's] outlandish claims"). When viewing the Amended Complaint's factual allegations in the light most favorable to the plaintiffs, this evidence is enough to suggest that Giuliani recklessly accused Freeman of being arrested for election fraud.
For these reasons, plaintiffs have pled a plausible defamation claim under D.C. law….
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
This should be an interesting thread.
Do you think Giuliani has a case?
Wonder what it is.
I think the question is do the plaintiffs have a case?
More interestingly to me, assuming the plaintiffs have a case, how far do the damages go. From the opinion:
Assume Giuliani defamed them by falsely stating they were invovled in election fraud. Is he legally responsible for this harassment?
How can he be responsible for the actions of third parties who are unknown?
The Alex Jones verdict included compensatory damages for third-party actions similar to these. I am not sure if he also incited the third-party actions more directly that Rudy may have.
The purpose of defamation law is literally to recover damages from third parties that believed the defamatory statements. The defamation is not the damage.
Functionally you could argue it is holding Rudy liable for the acts of third parties. But I guess formally these facts are used to demonstrate how Rudy caused reputational harm and mental anguish.
Defamation is only defamation because false statements are published to third parties. And if the third parties, acting due to the defamed statement, takes acts to cause mental anguish because the plaintiff’s reputation is now damaged, it is appropriate for a jury to consider those facts in placing a dollar amount on the harm caused.
OK, but again, who are these third parties? How do you identify them as the ones that caused the plaintiffs their alleged harm?
Well I guess it doesn’t matter who they are, just so long as they can demonstrate whatever acts they did were motivated by the defamatory statement in some way. I mean if you’re a nobody, and then Rudy says you rigged an election, and third parties start camping outside your home making threatening statements, that’s not a huge inferential leap for a jury to make in determining what the damage was.
I understand that. But how far does it go? Certainly, if a third party says, I don't want to do business with you because I heard the defamation, that is compensible. But some of these are criminal acts. Is that included? What if someone went into her home looking for her, and then when he could not find her hit her husband in the head with a hammer. (Just hypothetically.) Can he sue for personal injuries?
I don't have an answer, but I think that is an issue worth discussing. Any libel lawyers out there who might shed light on this?
I don't have an answer either, but thanks for raising the question. Hope to read some **informed** comments.
It would strike me as odd if loss of business (i.e. monetary damage) would be compensible while physical damage (i.e. being bludgeoned) would not. Granted, it’s not illegal to boycott a business (even if the reason is demonstrably false) while it is illegal to attack someone with a hammer, I’m just not sure why that would matter.
Seems to me that if the plaintiff can show a sufficient connection from the defamation to the activity that caused damage it would be comensible, regardless of whether that activity were legal or not.
But IANAL, so this is just so much armchair speculation.
My guess would be she couldn’t put in medical bills. But if someone tried to kill you and they were motivated in whole and in part by someone else’s defamatory statement, I don’t see how you couldn’t tell a jury that for them to assess damages.
Also: let’s say there was an attack. And insurance paid medicals. Would it be theoretically possible for the insurance company to have a subrogation claim to any defamation recovery? It would depend on how the policy is written but It might make sense from their perspective if the defamer has big pockets and the assaulter is judgment proof.
Well given that this is being heard in Howell's court I will assume Guliani's motions will be denied and the case will proceed to trial.
By the way, why is this being heard in DC?
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21988799/amended-complaint-freeman-moss-v-giuliani.pdf
1. Diversity jurisdiction exists.
2. Tortious comments allegedly occurred while Rudy was in DC so DC has personal jurisdiction and venue is appropriate.
Thanks! How lucky for the plaintiffs.
I mean I think they’d rather this hadn’t happened so I wouldn’t call it luck.
I don't see why criminal acts that were proximately caused by the defamation wouldn't be actionable against the defamer just as tortious acts would be.
I would dismiss this entire case for claiming that nefarious pizza deliveries are called "doxxing" anywhere.
The pizza deliveries are the result of the doxxing, not the doxxing itself.
I thought the gravamen of libel and slander was "damage to reputation." If the proximate cause of the harassment is that reputational damage, I think defamation law reaches it, no?
I agree with the result, but I had to check the link to see if I was reading the opinion, or Plaintiff's Response to Defendant's Motion to Dismiss.
Questioning election results is now illegal and will cost you your money, profession, and possibly freedom. That is as long as you are NOT a leftist. Then you can riot and do whatever.
I wonder how this is going to end when a good half the country is being denied their peaceful avenues of protest and have to watch the other half do whatever they want to do….
Giuliani allegedly did more than that, he claimed there was specific evidence that these individuals commited election fraud.
Props to Bored Lawyer for acting like a professional and dealing with the case in the OP, not just the sides at issue.
You mean like you usually do?
Bumble,
I think you mis-typed. I think you meant to write, "Nice point, SarcastrO. Thanks for acknowledging it."
It might be that your finger accidentally hit your "gotta be an asshole" macro key.
LOL, I have my biases but I'll never be a knee-jerk tool on Jimmy's leval!
"I’ll never be a knee-jerk tool on Jimmy’s leval[sic]!"
Agreed, you are not a knee-jerk tool on Jimmy’s level.
Sarcastro could never be great enough to even think about reaching my level. The only way he can justify his puny existence is through self-pity and putting others down.
I would bet a significant amount of money that Sarc can justify his existence in a myriad of ways beyond self pity and putting people down. I would also bet a significant amount of money that he’s happier than you on a day-to-day basis.
That isn't what his mom was just telling me....
Okay. I will now bet literally all my
money that he is happier than you.
Your mom just told me you are a really bad liar...
The funniest (or least funny I suppose) thing about your constant ellipses-based premonitions of imminent violence if you don’t get your way 100% of the time, is that whenever someone actually does such violence you get all defensive and deflect.
In other words, a coward.
If that is your interpretation of an open ended statement then I think that is more telling than "...."
Lol you’re such a pathetic coward that you have to pretend other people are too dumb to catch onto your obvious implication. I think I’m stealing from Noscitur but: I refuse to believe that you’re dumb enough to actually think that we’re dumb enough to not understand you’re meaning.
I mean you are literally wondering out loud about what’s going to happen when people are “denied their peaceful avenues of protest.” You’re obviously suggesting an imminent turn to violence, own it.
Again that is your assumption.....
If past precedent is any indicator it looks like they are going to sit back and take it. Other than maybe about 300,000 voter rights protesters who descended on the Capitol in January that has largely been the case. Fear is a big motivator and the left has been good at dishing that out....
It’s my assumption because that’s what you want me to assume. Stop pretending to be dumb about your own positions. It’s not working.
If your assumption is dumb then I think you know who to blame for that (hint - it ain't ....)
Christ.
No guess again...
Former Democratic senate staffer appointed by Obama ruled against Rudy.
This is shocking.
Care to engage with the substance?
Of course not.
Notorious liar and asshole Rudy Giuliani plausibly defamed someone. Shocking.
Notorious commenter and asshole weighs in. Shocking!
"Trump-appointed judges rule against Trump in election case after election case."
"Trump-appointed judge in Florida whores her integrity to rule for him, while all other judges in America cringe and laugh at her, and mock her, for her bizarre legal reasoning."
Which of these bothers you the most?
I don't call women whores just because I don't like their alleged politics. You apparently do.
Technically, I said she whored her integrity...not that she was a whore.
I've also written here (probably far too many times, for literally years and years) that MALE Senators Ted Cruz and Lindsay Graham have whored their integrity sucking at Trump's teat. I get that those numerous examples don't play into your narrative of turning this particular judge into a victim, but so be it.
Interesting side-step.
Interesting in what way? In its perfectly unwavering predictability?
[Threadjack, since I doubt any Conspirator will write about this today] Trump has gone to the Supreme Court, to try and block release of his taxes. Un. Freakin’. Believable.
In Bush v Gore, the entire case managed to be heard and decided by SCOTUS within a few weeks. Which it had to, due to the need for an ultimate decision before the new president could be sworn in, etc. If we are going to treat a current or ex-president as a special class (eg, can’t be sued while in office), why on earth can’t he also be treated as special in all other legal areas? That is, give his cases uber-priority? Allow for full briefing, but on an expedited basis? With this tax case–I don’t care if you think "it’s about damn time” or “it’s a total witchhunt”…can we all agree that it’s a case that should take about a month for a court to decide, and then another month for an appellate court to rule, and then another month, if the loser moves it over to federal court, etc etc?
I get that Delay, delay, delay, is an absolutely accepted legal practice, and I’ve done it myself, in cases where I hoped a witness would move, or change his/her mind, and so on. But in any case involving highly significant current political leaders??? Shit…let’s move it along as quickly as possible (while still allowing for procedural protections). Two years and counting is crazy.
(Yeah, this is probably better-suited for the Thursday Open Thread. But I figured ‘timely’ was better than ‘being on-topic.) ?
...and of course you get your dig in on Trump.
Well, if by "dig," you mean, "Santamonica does not think that yet ANOTHER delay tactic by Trump serves our national good, nor the interests of justice in any way, and Santamonica thinks that this harmful, needless, and pointless delay is worthy of mention." . . . yes, I agree that I'm guilty as charged. I proudly admit this. (I just wish you would join me...since you can be--and are!!!--a Trump apologist and STILL be supportive of a faster and more efficient judicial process in cases involving him.)
How does the release of Trump's tax returns serve the "national good"?
Bumble,
Seriously? How does a CURRENT major national figure's possible criminal actions affect the public good??? (I'll also note the difference between "release" meaning their becoming available to you and to me on the Internet, and release merely to a governmental branch as part of its legislative authority)
Look, if Trump had pulled an Obama (or Bush, or Clinton, or Reagan, or Carter, or Nixon) and had left office and dropped out of the political limelight, then I'd be agreeing with you. In that case, he's a private citizen, out of the public's eye, and his tax shenanigans are between him and the IRS. (I think he should pay his fair share of taxes, like other filthy-rich people ought to do, of course.) But Trump is the front-runner for the next presidential election. I don't see how anyone, in good faith, can say that well-founded allegations of criminal tax fraud are not a matter of national importance. If, in fact, Trump did commit intentional tax fraud, then I want to know, as it makes it less likely that I will vote for him (or vote for people he endorses). If it turns out that Trump is innocent of being a tax cheat, then it's relevant, as it makes it more likely that I will vote for him (or follow his endorsements). I suspect that literally tens of millions feel the same way--running the gamut from Trump dislikers to Trump supporters.
Roberts grants Trump's request.
No. He issued an administrative stay, so the court can decide.
Because the powerful are not supposed to turn the investigative power of government against political enemies.
Here’s how to work around it: lie that it’s about investigating to make effective laws under that power. There are legions of True Believers who will lap it up. Meanwhile, the fraudulent politicians lying this lie sit back and have a drink, relaxing.
“Trump is a scoundrel. A committee should be formed to boycott him. You can, if you can form such a committee, put me down for a contribution of $1000.”
Until then, keep your mits away from the investigative power of government to gitcher enemies!
Yes, Donald “Lock her up!” Trump deserves this in some cosmic sense. This is not a suggestion to descend to that level, a level most of the Constitution is designed to forbid.
Its a Congressional subpoena, a political issue, not involving the "interests of justice"..
Let’s unpack this. You start out simply assuming that whatever politicians (i.e. Trump) do is “political,” purely self-serving. and never based on concepts like justice. You then project this onto Congress. But what this says about what you think about your own side is way more important.
I get that Delay, delay, delay, is an absolutely accepted legal practice, and I’ve done it myself, in cases where I hoped a witness would move, or change his/her mind, and so on.
Hmm, a lawyer admitting to using tactics that make people think poorly of lawyers. Interesting.
If it really is "absolutely accepted practice" to delay in the hopes that witnesses for the opposing side move or otherwise become unavailable*, then that seems to be accepting something that at least should be unethical, even if it isn't. Each filing or motion sought by an attorney should be made in good faith, in an ideal world where lawyers are expected to actually live by a code of ethics, rather than what they can and can't get away with doing.
Maybe I'm too idealistic for the real world. As well as being disappointed by educated professionals like lawyers twisting the rules in order to win their case, I also get disappointed when I see or read about professional athletes doing things that are clearly against the letter and spirit of the rules because they are likely to get away with it. They seem to have a "if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying" attitude. Believing that people should have integrity seems to be naive.
*By the way, delaying in the hopes that a witness will move sounds disturbingly close to hoping that something 'unfortunate' happens to them before they would be called to testify. And one's imagination goes to some dark places wondering what could be expected to "change his/her mind."
Jason, “…Hmm, a lawyer admitting to using tactics that make people think poorly of lawyers. Interesting. …” [I don’t know how to do the cool italics when quoting, alas.]
Perhaps sadly; this applies to 95% of lawyers. For those who do any type of litigation, at least. If you are not a lawyer, you may or may not already know that we are governed by various ethical rules, and of course there are local, state, and federal statues as well. One of the overriding principles that we have drummed into us in law school–plus in the real world–is that we MUST act as zealous advocates for our clients, and for our clients’ interests. On a Bar Exam, I would write that this means that I must do everything that advances my client, unless doing so would violate one of those rules, statues, laws, etc.. In the real world, I think it means, “Doing anything reasonable that does not violate…”
Lawyers ask leading questions. We delay proceedings (and I’m not talking about by doing anything dishonest, like lying about being ill, etc). We turn over discovery in response, leaving out critical paperwork if the asking party screwed up…even knowing that he intended to ask for those ‘extra’ documents. And so on. Now, if you wanted to change the rules that control attorneys’ conduct, you’d be surprised to know that I’d be perfectly happy with that. (And so would many other attorneys, I suspect.) But, in the current landscape; you either buy into the adversarial system, or you don’t. And if you don’t, you have no business representing anyone in a legal dispute.
(It’s interesting to note about my own practice: While I have sometimes delayed trials and other hearings for strategic advantage, it is MUCH more common in my area of law to do things the other way. I commonly insist on my client’s right to a No Time Waiver trial–far quicker than any regular trial. Think a max of 15 days, rather than 2-3 months out. And I do that so that the prosecution will hopefully (from my client’s perspective) be unable to find a witness or will be unable to collect inculpatory evidence against my client. Query: Is asking for a much-faster trial more or less ethically challenged than a much-delayed trial? Or are they sort of the same? . . . Not rhetorical questions–they’re things that lawyers in my field ask each other.)
SantaM, cool text formatting is done with bog-standard html commands in-line with the text. If you want itals (and substituting * for >, so you can see how it works), typing
<i*example</i* will give you example by turning itals on then off.
<blockquote* and <bold* can also be useful for quoting and emphasis, respectively.
give it a try at the tail end an old post that few will look at, do some experimenting!
<b works for bold as well as <bold. I use that regularly as well. <s is for strikethrough, which looks like
this. I've mostly seen people use that for sarcasm.Another handy one is <a href="link"*text</a*. That will underline what you put in as 'text' and send you to the address of the 'link'. I use that a lot as well, especially when the web address is really long and isn't descriptive of what it links to. Now that there is an edit feature, you can actually try things with more confidence that you'd be able to fix it if you miss something.
One of the overriding principles that we have drummed into us in law school–plus in the real world–is that we MUST act as zealous advocates for our clients, and for our clients’ interests.
I get that, of course. Inherent in an adversarial system is that each side is going to try and 'win' within the rules. I just wonder if one of those rules includes that each motion or filing being done in good faith. That is, if you ask for a delay and the judge asks why, you have to give an honest answer. And "because I hope that a key witness will move and not be available to testify against my client" wouldn't be accepted by a judge as a valid reason.
I think that the other examples you mention are more understandable, perhaps even the correct ethical action. (Not giving evidence against your client in discovery if opposing counsel didn't ask for it, for instance.)
Perhaps the real problem is that we need the system to be adversarial. If everyone involved in the justice system was truly seeking truth and justice with honesty and integrity, as well as competence, then maybe there wouldn't even need to be attorneys for each side and instead just a single entity to take up a case, find all of the relevant information, and make a decision.
Alas, we don't live in a world where everyone can be trusted to be that honest and pure. Probably not even the majority of people could be trusted to be that morally pure given the stakes of even civil litigation, let alone criminal prosecutions. I just think that efforts to improve how honest people in a society will be is aided when the expectations that they be honest are higher.
Show young people that playing by both the spirit and letter of the rules is more important than winning in sports. It would be great if players never used PEDs, pretended to catch a ball cleanly when they knew it hit the ground, flopped after contact from an opponent to make them getting called for a foul more likely, etc. The Legend of Bagger Vance wasn't a great movie, but it had a moment in its climax that really captures what I love about golf. The protagonist gave himself a penalty stroke. The boy that was acting as his caddie pleaded with him not to, saying that no one would know that he made the mistake that caused the penalty under the rules. The player replied that he would know. That's always been how I understand what integrity really is. You do the right thing, because it is right, not because it benefits you. You do the right thing even when the wrong thing benefits you and you'd never get caught.
Query: Is asking for a much-faster trial more or less ethically challenged than a much-delayed trial? Or are they sort of the same? . . . Not rhetorical questions–they’re things that lawyers in my field ask each other.
Well, defendants in criminal trials are guaranteed a right to a speedy trial, so it is definitely not ethically challenged to ask for one, even if it is with the hope that the prosecution isn't really ready to present its case. They shouldn't be charging someone unless they expect to be ready to start the trial as soon as the defense could ask for one to begin. In civil litigation, there may not be a constitutional right for a defendant to get a speedy trial, but the principle is still there, I would think, so the same reasoning would apply. Though, it is a little different there since a plaintiff can't ask for discovery until they file a suit, correct? They would certainly need some time to get that information and find experts to analyze it, depose witnesses, and so on.
In my mind, the ethics again come down to how honest the arguments each side makes to a judge are. If one side wants a trial to begin sooner than normal, and is honest with the reasons, then I wouldn't see any ethical issues with that. The other side could then argue that they need more time to be ready, and if they are being honest as well, then the judge can make a fair ruling consistent with the established rules and procedures and laws regarding the timing of trials.
Yes, you're supposed to act in good faith. If you ask for a delay you need a legally valid reason; you don't need a legally valid motive, though. "My calendar is very full and I want more time to prepare" is a valid reason, even if you have an ulterior motive also. If there's a realistic possibility of the key witness moving, the other side's job is to point that out in response.
Beryl Howell is a biased menace.
Why is this Georgia case in DC court???
Real reason: the plaintiff's lawyer thought they could get a favorable jury, and maybe judge, there.
Legal reason: the defamation reached there, so the plaintiff was "defamed" there.
Notably Rudy did not move to dismiss on jurisdictional or venue grounds.
First of all, not sure how competent his counsel is. Second, there may well be a sound legal reason for the plaintiff to pick that forum, but it still smacks of forum shopping. Plaintiffs are based in Georgia, while Giuliani is based in NY. DC has not real connection to the case.
If I were his counsel, I would at least have made a motion under Section 1404 to transfer to the appropriate federal district in Georgia. Many judges would grant that, since that is the plaintiffs' home district.
And if you were the plaintiff's counsel would you have filed in Georgia, NY, or DC?
My understanding is that an attorney is supposed to work in the best interests of their client. That doesn't mean that I'm in favor of forum shopping in general, just that I understand why it's often done.
I might well have done that. But that does not mean that the other side's counsel or the Court have to go along with it. As I said, many judges I know would say, this case belongs in Georgia, where you live and where you suffered the brunt of the damages.
Yeah, I'm pretty confident you would have "done that" i.e. filed in Georgia, NY, or DC.
(c:
Well, the obvious reason not to sue in NY is that there were five defendants, and four of them didn’t have any legal connection to NY. DC has a connection to the case in that the tortious acts took place in DC.
Georgia would probably have been viable as well. But what's Rudy's best argument for change of venue? "I don't want black jurors," which is the subtext of all these snide comments about "DC juries" every time a Trumpkin is convicted or a John Durham prosecution flops, is unlikely to be a compelling argument to the court.
The argument is that DC has no connection to the case, and there is no convenience to anyone to hold it there.
The plaintiffs would be expected to call witnesses as to how they were harmed. That means they either have to travel to DC, which they must do voluntarily, or they have to relly on depositions, which is an inferior form of cross-examination. Giuliani can argue, I want your witnesses live, which I can get if the case is in Atlanta (which appears to be where it would be if transferred to Georgia).
And the black-jurors thing works both ways. The Plaintiffs brought the case in DC because someone thought a more sympathetic jury would be found there. That kind of thinking should be discouraged as much as the reverse. (Although it likely won't be in this case.)
Did you miss the part about "the tortious acts occurred there"?
The burden is on the plaintiffs to show how they were harmed. Is Rudy complaining that the forum is inconvenient for the plaintiffs?
Giuliani is not complaining about anything, I am hypothesizing a motion to transfer.
I did not miss that part, but what Giuliani said is probably recorded, and he will be at whatever trial is held wherever it is. I think a colorable argument can be made that the case belongs in Georgia, since that is where the witnesses, particularly non-party witnesses, are likely to be.
I'm not saying that Georgia is inappropriate — though I could certainly foresee Rudy attempting to argue to the contrary if it had been brought there — but that DC is also appropriate.
I also have to take issue with your imputation of racism. These are not run of the mill civil disputes, these are politically charged cases, brought against prominent political figures. DC votes overwhelmingly for one party, so why is it wrong for a litigant from the other party to not want to be there?
Have you not read the comments here from people like BCD and such about the failed Durham prosecutions, or the convictions of people like Roger Stone? It’s all about “DC jurors.” Even when the trials don't take place in DC, like the Danchenko prosecution.
I don't keep track of every commenter here. Some are definitely racist, some are not. But "DC jury" can also mean "politically biased jury," given the politics of both the cases and the venue. It is legitimate, and not racist, for a litigant and his counsel to take that into consideration.
“After the polls closed across the country on November 3, 2020—the first Presidential election in U.S. history to be conducted in the midst of a deadly global pandemic…”
According to the CDC, America suffered three waves of a cholera epidemic between 1832 and 1866, killing between 5% to 10% of the populations of major cities. By my count, there were nine presidential elections in that period of time.
According to the CDC, America suffered a diphtheria epidemic between 1921 and 1925. There was one presidential election in there.
According to the CDC, there were major polio outbreaks in 1916 (presidential election year) and 1925 (another presidential election year).
...and of course there was even a Presidential election while the country was engaged in a civil war.
Global pandemic.
Started by leaking from Chinese Lab....
So if an epidemic is only killing Americans, it has no effect on the presidential election, but if it’s also killing Canadians, Irish, Russians and Chinese, then we have to change election rules?
And who said these epidemics did not stretch to other countries?
You listed some claimed facts that contradict the accuracy of a single statement without other commentary. Someone else making note of how your claimed facts might not contradict that statement's exact wording, also without further comment, seems on point to me.
That you then jump to talking about changing "election rules" tells us what your original purpose was in posting the comment. I would then suggest that nitpicking the accuracy of the statement does not do much of anything to argue the merits of any changes to election procedures during the height of the pandemic.
Well done! You have surely picked out the most important phrase in Judge Howell's 25-page opinion. A stellar law career awaits you!
Bumble, you truly are the Micky Rivers of the VC.
Unarmed (you're not a lawyer) you flit around the fray
and throw sucker-punch insults, then retreat.
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx8Ai057WlXInfRiPRyEo8BUXxRC-ZfNZZ
Feel free to mute me if that's how you feel; otherwise, piss off wanker.