The Volokh Conspiracy
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Re-reading Justice Thurgood Marshall's Opinion in Bakke
In 1978, the Supreme Court issued its first significant affirmative action judgment in Bakke. The Court split 4-4-1. Four Justices argued that the 1964 Civil Rights Act barred the use of race in university admissions. Four justices contended that neither the Act nor the Fourteenth Amendment prohibited the use of race in admissions for remedial purposes, including explicit racial and ethnic quotas. Justice Lewis Powell, writing only for himself, concluded that quotas were forbidden, as was the use of race to remediate past and lingering harms from discrimination, but that universities may take race into account as part of a broader goal of having a "diverse" class.
Civil rights hero Thurgood Marshall wrote an outraged dissent, in which he summed up his reasoning as follows: "In light of the sorry history of discrimination and its devastating impact on the lives of Negroes, bringing the Negro into the mainstream of American life should be a state interest of the highest order. To fail to do so is to ensure that America will forever remain a divided society." Many have found Marshall's dissent, especially his exposition of the historical discrimination against black Americans and its continuing effects, to be compelling.
In re-reading the opinion when researching my new book on racial classifications, though, I noticed something interesting. Marshall refers to "Negroes" and "the Negro" many times in his opinion, but never references any other minority group. What's interesting about that is that the medical school's quota program at issue in Bakke had the following results, according to an appendix to Powell's opinion: From "1971 through 1974, the special program resulted in the admission of 21 black students, 30 Mexican-Americans, and 12 Asians, for a total of 63 minority students." In other words, only one-third of the students admitted under the minority quota program were African Americans.
So, even if we agreed with every word of Justice Marshall's opinion, he not only failed to explain why racial quotas were appropriate for Asian and Mexican Americans (the "Hispanic" classification not yet in existence when the litigation commenced), he never even mentions the other groups. As the four-justice opinion on the other side notes, "The inclusion of [Asians] is especially curious in light of the substantial numbers of Asians admitted through the regular admissions process." That opinion also notes that the university was unable to explain "its selection of only the four favored groups -- Negroes, Mexican-Americans, American Indians, and Asians -- for preferential treatment," as opposed to the myriad other ethnic groups it could have included.
Forty-four years later, much of the discourse around affirmative action preferences still assumes that the only admissions preferences, or at least the only ones that matter, are those for African Americans. Today's op-ed in the New York Times by Justin Driver is a case in point. This is true even though Hispanic Americans outnumber black Americans by about a 4-3 ratio, even greater if you exclude black immigrants and their children.
Given that the driving force behind affirmative action was and pretty clearly continues to be the felt need to redress the effects of long-term discrimination and worse against African Americans, I wonder if we would have been better off if Powell, instead of adopting the diversity rationale, had adopted Marshall's opinion, but still held the UC Davis quota program unconstitutional to the extent it included Mexicans and Asians. Voluntary adoption of quotas for African Americans would have the advantages of transparency, serving the main rationale for affirmative action to begin with, avoiding the dishonesty and lack of transparency that comes along with the diversity rationale, and also not encouraging the growth of DEI bureaucracies that bring a specific and generally counter-productive ideology with them.
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Do you know if the briefings included anything about Latinos and Asians?
That's an important point.
This is surprisingly difficult to find online. I did read the California Supreme Court decision which referenced an amicus form the Mexican-American Legal Defense Fund offering statistics on life expectancy and maternal mortality rates for “blacks and other races” compared to whites.
Marshall didn't know what a sunk cost was obviously and perhaps in his heart thought underrepresentation was all due to "racism" and not culture and cultural generational creations.
Equity today is a natural evolution of ending govt racism and still not getting the social outcomes you want. First it was affirmative action/racial quotas and that didn't work so now we attack the methods of choosing this or that occupation or educational admission. If your tribe's underrepresented it is because of the test (racist), training criteria (racist), merit/ability (racist) and so on. I am old enough to recall Rev Jesse Jackson saying the math SAT was racist cause black kids didn't know what a Yacht was (seriously look it up)..2 yachts plus 2 yachts...
If your tribe is underrepresented, it is a cultural thing. Honestly the most "white" organization according to the woke folks is the NBA. The players are all there due to merit not race. Every organization should be just like the NBA.
As someone who was in the minority at my university back in the early 80's and in corporate America for most of my career, I never wanted a slot because of where my grandparents immigrated from...ever.
It would have been better if Powell had simply anticipated Roberts' "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."
You don't get out of the effects of centuries of racial oppression by deciding from now on you ignore past racial oppression.
That's actually how you lock it in.
You don't get out of having to justify government racial discrimination by pretending that the alternative is the same thing as ignoring past racial oppression.
That's actually dumb.
Calling affirmative action discrimination is rather begging the question. Or playing semantic games.
Either way, it's facile.
Pretending racial discrimination is not racial discrimination is clearly the superior NewSpeak.
"Calling affirmative action discrimination is rather begging the question."
Only if you are in the dimwitted, nonsensical paradigm of thinking that "discrimination" is per se a bad thing or illegal. I'm just using that word in the perfectly normal sense here. It's you that would play semantic games with it.
Affirmative action is discrimination, full stop.
It may be acceptable discrimination or even good discrimination but it is unequivocally discrimination. Trying to claim otherwise is exactly the sort of "semantic game" you are accusing others of playing.
Welcome to the semantic game.
Yes, you are technically right (at least for some types of AA).
But even a cursory read above will tell you the connotation folks are attempting to attach to discrimination here.
It's not a very good game.
"Yes, you are technically right (at least for some types of AA)"
The only sorts that really matter, actually.
I really only care about the denotation, since it's the denotation the EP clause is concerned with, not any connotations.
I don't think that's right - the Court in Bakke contained both formalists and functionalists, so actual and intended meaning of words still mattered. Has mattered since then as well.
No magic words, Brett.
“Calling affirmative action discrimination is rather begging the question.”
Huh? Is calling Jim Crow discrimination begging the question?
I mean, discrimination is clearly being used in the sense of treating people of different races differently. How's that question begging?
So you took the semantic games rout rather than the question begging rout.
About what I expected from you.
Lol. No, you're the one who's playing semantic games, with your "Discrimination that I like isn't called discrimination" crap. I guess I shouldn't expect you to be able to understand that though.
I think he understands it perfectly well.
The game is this.
This is discrimination, using one connotation of discrimination.
But discrimination is always bad, using a different connotation.
It’s tired and it’s not clever.
"It’s tired and it’s not clever." = "I'm right no matter what you say."
That is hardly a good will argument.
I explained the slight of hand about connotations, Don. I’m not doing some tautology nonsense.
What Sarcastro is arguing is that "My form of racial discrimination (affirmative action) is good because of reasons".
That's what those who engage in racial discrimination always argue. They always believe that their form of racial discrimination is justified for some reason of another. Whether it be "White man's guilt" or "Religious uplifting" or any other bit. There's always a reason used to justify racial discrimination that the proponents firmly believe in that this is right and justified.
And...it isn't. It doesn't work, it entrenches racial differences, racial hostility and more. There's no better way to make race "matter" and cause racial division than to have an official government policy that defines and classifies people and their benefits and rights by race.
So you finally got around to an argument at the end there. So that’s where I’ll engage.
AA entrenching racial differences is a take. Because seems to me it’s doing the opposite - seeing a racially tilted system and attempting to balance it. As to the racial division bit, well, folks that decide to resent blacks due to AA generally resent blacks for a lot more when pressed. In other words it doesn’t make anyone racist who wasn’t already.
There's an old experiment known as the Robber's Cave Study. It's part of Realistic Conflict Theory.
The action of dividing a society into two distinct groups, then favoring one group as "winners" through artificial advantages actually causes conflict and division. The very actions you propose Sarcastro (Affirmative action) cause racism. Affirmative action makes racists.
shorter Sarcastr0: “Racial discrimination now, racial discrimination tomorrow, racial discrimination forever!”
I really don’t want to live in Sarcastr0’s world…
Yours is a defense of racial discrimination forever. Whatever the relevance of actions or practices in centuries past, they can still be pointed to for centuries yet to come.
Indeed, the more counterproductive the racial discrimination solution is its supporters will point to that as proof of continuing need.
Whatever the relevance of actions or practices in centuries past, they can still be pointed to for centuries yet to come.
Can they? I can't know - racial discrimination has been formal, open, and accepted thing in our institutions until about 30 years ago, so I can't speak for centuries.
Indeed, the more counterproductive the racial discrimination solution is its supporters will point to that as proof of continuing need.
I mean, this logic works for literally any policy you don't like. 'The more counterproductive anti-crime policies are, the more police can point to them as proof of continuing need' etc. etc.
Once you decide a policy is in bad faith, you can call it ever.
"racial discrimination has been formal, open, and accepted thing in our institutions until about 30 years ago"
Thirty years ago would be 1992. From personal experience, African-Americans were given large preferences in e.g. federal hiring from the early 1970's. Even in smaller private companies, I haven't seen even a whiff of discrimination against A-A's past the 1960's - much the converse in fact. I think your timeline is off.
In 1970 I strongly agreed with affirmative action, even when it was to my detriment. The person benefiting from it had not just certainly been crapped on by society themselves, but their parents had been crapped on for their entire lives.
Today, though, a kid entering the workforce hasn't been personally crapped on - and their parents have benefited for their entire careers.
For how any generations should we keep it up?
I was speaking about redlining. Which ended in the 80s. So yeah, I was a rounding error off.
a kid entering the workforce hasn’t been personally crapped on
They have, though. Systemically. No shortage of scholarship on that.
And the meritocracy issue as well.
"I was speaking about redlining."
But you didn't say redlining. To the extent it was accepted thirty years ago, it was accepted because it was not open, formal racial discrimination.
We know it went on because banks kept records of it.
They didn’t take our billboards, but it was also not hidden.
"They have, though. Systemically."
I don't think I have ever worked anyplace that didn't have a formal plan for hiring and promotion preference for minorities.
Wait, let me correct that - the places I have worked that didn't do that were:
-busboy
-min wage construction laborer (for private jobs; they did have to do so for gov't contracts)
-USFS fire crews (if you could pass the step test, they'd hire you)
That something was justifiable in 1970 doesn't mean it will still be justifiable in 2070.
it’s good they do that so long as the system has the issues I’m talking about.
Just because we are better now doesn’t mean we are problem free.
Using racial oppression to fight past racial oppression. Good plan.
Affirmative Action as racial oppression!
I do think reasonable people can think it's a bad policy. But oppression? Don't be silly.
How were blacks oppressed in past times. They were denied opportunities because of their race.
Affirmative action is simply denying different groups opportunities because of their race.
You can say it’s necessary. Ok fine. But denying that it’s race based oppression contradicts your original definition of oppression. And making fun of someone who points that out is sophistry. But that’s your stock in trade.
Different context make for same actions becoming fundamentally different policies.
I can drink all I want at home. I can't drink all I want right before getting in a car, or while on duty.
Oh, so there’s good oppression and bad oppression. I’ll teach that to my grandson.
“And best of all, kid, it’s completely up to you to say which is which”.
You didn't address my analogy at all, just went straight to the outrage/appeal to incredulity.
You also switched from 'denying opportunities' to oppression when you stopped arguing and started banging on the table. Which is a tell.
I addressed your point precisely. You’re saying that oppression should be allowed in some circumstances but not in others, depending on context.
The problem you won’t and can’t address is that if you’re going to run things that way, then someone has to decide when it’s allowed. Who gets to do that. You? Hell, no, you’re a zealot. Same is true of the Trumpsters.
Who do you suppose should be Solomon here? Isn’t is simply more fair to stay away from that mess?
You appealed to outrage; you didn't take issue with my analogy.
'Who decides?' Government and institutions. Same as always. Your argument proves way too much - it's a criticism of everything from judicial review to having a police force to having a government at all.
I'm saying I think there are good reasons for this policy, and also noting the flaws in the arguments against it. That's not really making myself Solomon; it's arguing policy on the Internet.
The government and institutions? Biden? Trump? The YLS whackadoodles? Or if you prefer, the ones at Bob Jones? Greg Abbott or Gavin Newsome?
No thank you very much.
And btw there you go with your pathetic mind reading crap again. There is zero
outrage in any of my responses. Once again, try reeeeeaaaaaal hard to just read what I say without projecting your concepts on to it. It’s really pathetic.
Oh no, government yukky!
Dude, that kind of knee-jerk libertarian signaling is not going to convince me. Especially since I very much doubt it'll be at the Presidential/Congress level.
Beyond the fact that I think our flawed institutions are a lot better than no institutions at all, the very act of deciding not to decide is very much a government decision. See: abortion.
You cannot take the politics out of political issues merely by declaring the federal government shall from henceforth be hands off.
"Oh no, government yukky!"
Lol. How you choose to characterize the fourteenth amendment and other curbs on the government's ability to dictate or engage in racial preferences is up to you.
Nothing is going to convince you. Your political opinion locks down every thought and leaves no open room.
And it’s not “government iccky”. It’s “government is run by fools and buffoons”. What we want for sure is opportunities being doled out by people who spend every minute appealing to the most extreme people in our society. That’ll be swell!!
Of course, as one of those extremes you’re happy with that. Half of the time anyway.
bevis, we are arguing on the Internet. No one is getting convinced of anything. That ad hom crap is not the trump card you think it is.
TiP I was talking to bevis’s argument which was not about the 14A.
You are smart enough to tell that, so why strawman like a tool?
So if nobody is listening, why are any of us bothering to talk? It’s a waste of time. Just shouting into the void.
I’m beginning to ask myself that question. Just a huge fuckin’ waste of time.
And screw off with the ad hom whining. You’re the one that said I was QAnon, which is stupid. I have no idea how to find it.
Meanwhile you’re defending every cockamamie thing the left says. Did you ever figure out who is the evil genius who’s inserting artificial noise onto sonograms like Abrams said (and you defended)? How the hell are they doing it?
I may have made an insulting comparison, but that’s not what ad hom is.
But you went in for the groomer nonsense IIRC.
I like the intellectual exercise. Reaction to arguments turns out to be how I refine my own position. Reactions to this and some pretty leftist boards over the years really formed my politics more than I’d like to admit.
You’re a complete nut. I never once went in for the groomer bullshit. It always seemed stupid to say and anyone who said called someone a groomer automatically went to ignore. You’re just wholesale fabricating crap now.
I said that the left was trying to indoctrinate small children, but “indoctrinate” and “groomer” are wholly different concepts.
So are you saying now that what Abrams said was idiotic or are you still defending it?
"You didn’t address my analogy at all, just went straight to the outrage/appeal to incredulity."
Yes he did. You analogized oppression to drinking, and said that there was harmful drinking and non-harmful drinking.
If you view it as harmful to deny someone opportunities because of their skin color, then discrimination is harmful no matter who you do it against.
If you view discrimination as harmful only when it results in an aggregate disparity based on skin color, then your argument might make sense.
But if discrimination isn't harmful on an individual level, why would it be harmful in the aggregate?
There is drinking we sanction and that we don't. Why do you think we make that distinction?
That's what my analogy is about - making distinctions based on context. Neither you nor he seem to understand that.
And no, the context for why affirmative action is not the same as segregation is not about scale.
No, we don't make distinctions about drinking based on context - we make distinctions based on outcomes. Drinking while on duty or right before you get in a car creates a harm to others. Drinking at home does not carry that same harm.
Making adverse employment decisions on the basis of skin color, on the other hand, is harmful regardless of whose skin.
God you’re dense. I got your point exactly several messages ago. You can’t address my point so you insist that I don’t understand yours.
Making adverse employment decisions on the basis of skin color, on the other hand, is harmful regardless of whose skin.
You're rather begging the question regarding outcomes, eh? Because there is another outcome at work in that employment decision.
And, of course, you're pretending that AA means skin color is the only thing decision makers are looking at. That's not really how it works anymore. Nor should it.
"You’re rather begging the question regarding outcomes, eh?"
Lol. If you're going to keep using that phrase, you really should learn what it means.
If you view it as harmful to deny someone opportunities because of their skin color, then discrimination is harmful no matter who you do it against.
That is worth thinking about. Two points:
1. Your framing is off the mark. The argument in favor of AA has not simply been that opportunities have been denied because of skin color. The argument has been about the history of response to skin color, and that history's effects on opportunities. On that basis, a case has been made and widely accepted that Blacks and Whites became legally distinguishable because social and legal response to their skin colors were markedly different, and disadvantaged Blacks. As a result, those groups are not situated alike now with regard to discrimination and opportunities.
If you do not concede that argument, then your task becomes to show that it is not true now that opportunities for Blacks and Whites differ in any legally meaningful way. That is not something which can simply be asserted a priori, as you have been doing. You need evidence. And not merely evidence which will satisfy some Whites.
Blacks will not stop with demands for better until evidence they can see satisfies them. An end to Black protest seems to be what you demand. Or is your demand just that government formally announce a return to a public ear deaf to Black protest? If so, what do you suppose would happen if government did that?
2. Anyone can posit two groups, Group A and Group B, with differing opportunities for whatever reasons, perhaps reasons which are utterly benign. If Group A has abundant opportunities, and Group B suffers a dearth of opportunities, then assertion is mistaken that policies work alike which discriminate against each group on a one-to-one basis. A policy to burden Group A's abundant opportunities might barely affect the size of the remainder. A corresponding loss of opportunities for Group B could be a different matter entirely. Almost everything remaining could be wiped out.
Advocates who insist that AA is a zero-sum game, with every opportunity extended to Blacks paid for by a corresponding opportunity withdrawn from Whites, must reflect on the implications of that reasoning. If, according to their demands, that reasoning was made to run in reverse, and opportunities more-recently extended to Blacks were on a one-to-one basis withdrawn from them, what then?
To illustrate, consider an example far afield, one which is not socially controversial. Telescopic systems are designed to transmit light efficiently, and to avoid scattering it, because scattered light in a telescopic system is a bad thing.
At first glance, someone unfamiliar with telescopes might suppose there is little to choose between an inexpensive telescope which transmits light with 99.4% efficiency, and another far more expensive telescope which achieves 99.8% efficiency. How could so slight a difference in efficiency justify a large difference in price?
The answer is that the difference looks small only because mistaken focus on the wrong quantity creates a distraction. Deleterious effects created by light scattered in the telescope are the phenomenon which needs control. The inexpensive telescope scatters 0.6% percent of its light, three times more than the 0.2% percent of light the more expensive telescope scatters. The comparatively-equal level of efficiency proves an illusion; it is dramatic difference in inefficiency which matters more. When effects measurable in percentages are under consideration, it is particularly important to be sure attention stays on the more-relevant side of the percentage balance.
To return to the topic at hand, regardless of absolute quantities, discriminatory effect of reduced Black opportunities is the socially corrosive effect to be avoided. That makes increased opportunity for Blacks both important and laudable, but comparatively less important. Discriminatory effect remaining becomes the more-critical quantity to measure. If that value is many multiples higher than it is for Whites, it will still be mis-measurement to insist, "See, overall Black and White opportunities are more equal than before."
Even as those values become notably more equal than before, that still leaves room for discriminatory actions against Blacks to be multiples higher than those against Whites. That ought to be unacceptable. Blacks are certain to judge it unacceptable. Many Whites will join in that judgment. A government which did turn a deaf ear would be irresponsible. The nation understands what could result, because for decades during the lives of many of us the nation was governed by such deaf ears, and violent social upheaval resulted. Alas, commonplace advocacy today, and on this blog, says, in effect, "Go back to that, we liked it better."
"But oppression? Don’t be silly."
Preferring one race over another is oppression of the "lesser" race.
Planter logic. Seriously. This was every fucking planter's reaction to even the most minimal efforts to support Freedmen.
Freedmen, though, were the direct personal victims of discrimination. ("Discrimination" is of course a woefully inadequate word in that context.) And planters were the villains. It would have been perfectly just to confiscate all former slave plantations and redistribute them to freedmen.
But SCOTUS has been very careful to distinguish between a remedial act imposed against a bad actor in favor of a direct victim, and a remedial act imposed on random bystanders in favor of indirect victims.
I don’t buy that. Are the Italians, Irish, or Eastern Europeans still treated like the scum of society? How about the Asians? Seems to me there is some yelling that they’re too advantaged today. My point is none of these groups needed any special treatment or consideration to within a few short generations to fully incorporate themselves into American society on an equal footing.
All history is filled with terrible things and injustice. There is little we can do except to learn from it and do better today. To continue to accentuate the wrongs of the past is not helping us to move forward. If anything it is regressive.
Probably the best thing to can do today for groups that were historically repressed or disadvantaged is to not lower our expectations and use history as an excuse for a lack of excellence.
Every child lives down to the expectations placed on them.
" Every child lives down to the expectations placed on them. "
I disagree. Many smart, ambitious young people flee our uneducated, desolate backwaters each year, seeking opportunity, education, and modernity in modern, successful communities and on liberal-libertarian campuses.
It's called bright flight. It explains why America's can't-keep-up communities continue to decline (and why strong, educated communities continue to lead America).
Don't you see? How much talent have we lost? How many contributions, discoveries, and advancement have not occurred because we tell certain groups that due to the past the deck is so stacked against you no amount of effort on your part will get you ahead?
It's appalling. If I were religious I'd call it a sin. In any event what a terrible waste of potential.
I'm Polish and Italian and grew up at a time in which jokes were still pretty common. I was told growing up that the world is unfair, and that I'd have to work twice as hard as some others to overcome that, but it was not an excuse for a lack of success and excellence.
Different backgrounds are different. Why blacks didn't act like Italians is kind of answered in the asking.
All history is filled with terrible things and injustice. There is little we can do except to learn from it and do better today.
I don't think you've demonstrated that at all, but lets take it as true for argument.
The meritocratic method we use right now, today, to choose winners and losers? There's some very good signs it's not doing it's job when it comes to any number of underserved communities. Because of course when we were deciding how to check for merit they weren't in the room. So while we work to understand/address that, affirmative action (and follow-on support) is one of the levers we're left with.
We'd be foolish to leave all these talented Americans behind just because we have decided to not look for them.
I guess that the argument is who is the onus on? I don't even what to get into the argument of what's fair. The world isn't fair, never has been and it never will be.
At some point the responsibility falls to the individual to step up to the plate. There is no shortage of aid for underprivileged students. Cities are full of libraries just packed with supplementary learning resources.
There is something to be said for the old "You can lead a horse to water" adage.
Can we do a better job of letting people know what is available? You bet. Ultimately, however the responsibility falls on them to take advantage.
I don't think onus is the right paradigm. Or even fairness - I'm fine sticking to merit, but I think we need to look hard at what our current indicia of merit actually indicate.
Because it's not talent.
And it is not a responsibility, it's just good practice for stuff that's seeking merit to actually look at indicia of merit, not stuff we decided was merit like 70 years ago.
And then there's the evidence that cohorts with diversity of background (well beyond race) learn and perform better.
That's why I'm for AA - not as an injustice or reparatory thing, but because it's good policy. I'm also for AA regarding conservative ideology in academic positions.
Last thing - operational talent requires more than just libraries being available. Educational institutions may not be for everyone, but they sure do help. There is some good research on how to support those without a family history of going to college.
But I also think a vastly more robust apprenticeship system would really help getting diverse experiential backgrounds into positions commensurate with their talent - school isn't for everyone!
Bottom line - AA isn't a reparation or fairness issue - it's a workforce optimization issue.
"Bottom line – AA isn’t a reparation or fairness issue – it’s a workforce optimization issue."
I think that hurts, rather than helps, your argument. You can't optimize your workforce by giving preference to whites, even if you can show that giving preference to whites optimizes your workforce.
Except our workforce is *already* optimized towards wealthy, white, and male. Among other things.
If it were not, I think the policy landscape would be different in reaction.
"Except our workforce is *already* optimized towards wealthy, white, and male. Among other things."
Huh? Focus, Sarcastro. You're arguing the opposite, remember?
What do you think I’m arguing? I don’t think it’s too hard to follow my thinking about our meritocratic systems failures and AA being needed therefor.
but you seem to have gotten turned around.
That’s extremist garbage.
When you get old and sick you’d better hope that the doctor you draw from the single payer system got there on merit rather than done other criteria.
Ok. Your angry faith in our meritocracy is noted.
I’m not so sure. That doesn’t mean I’m an extremist. My view is pretty common! And no I do not believe in hiring crappy doctors because they aren’t white. I’m skeptical we don’t hire good doctors because they don’t fit our current mold of what a good doctor looks like.
Though to tell the truth I don’t know much about medical school admissions so that might be different than the more general case.
"What do you think I’m arguing?"
You're arguing that our workforce is skewed in favor of whites in a suboptimal manner, remember?
Good TiP, because that’s what “ Except our workforce is *already* optimized towards wealthy, white, and male. Among other things.” says!
"Why blacks didn’t act like Italians is kind of answered in the asking."
Really? I tend to view them all as 'people', without a lot of innate (as opposed to cultural) differences in behavior.
Well, to be fair, while you may tend to view them all that way, an awful lot of people still don't.
That doesn't imply that any particular remedy is just or appropriate — I am much more sympathetic to the anti-affirmative action side — but it's too facile to say, "Why didn't black people just do what Italians did?"
"an awful lot of people still don’t"
I dunno. I grew up in the Jim Crow south, and there were plenty of whites who indeed viewed blacks as inherently inferior. I heard lots of watermelon jokes, etc.
IMHE, that changed pretty fast around 1970. I just don't really encounter racially bigoted people IRL anymore, and haven't for decades. If there were a lot of bigots around, I'd expect I'd occasionally encounter at least veiled remarks. And I don't live in a progressive bubble, I know lots of people to the right of either George Bush.
Is your experience different?
" I just don’t really encounter racially bigoted people IRL anymore, and haven’t for decades. "
Did you miss the segregated proms, the disparate policing, the race-targeting voter suppression efforts, the overt racism in political campaigns, the racially inspired educational decisions, and many other indications that your 'most people have been colorblind for quite some time' sense is wrong?
Beyond racial bigotry, have you also observed a lack of gay-bashing, antisemitism, misogyny, xenophobia, and other forms of bigotry among your neighbors since 1970?
Those who hear dog whistles are probably dogs.
"Different backgrounds are different. Why blacks didn’t act like Italians is kind of answered in the asking."
Oh? How are blacks and Italians different, in a way that justifies AA, Sarcastro?
Different backgrounds - it's right there in what you quoted.
Quit playing games.
You quit playing games. Everybody has different backgrounds.
We banned "different backgrounds are different" as an excuse for discrimination, remember?
We didn’t. And also this thread was not about legality.
Quit galloping. No new goalposts.
You've been galloping around moving those goalposts for this entire thread.
Show your work and explain how.
Don’t just insult - back it up.
"The meritocratic method we use right now, today, to choose winners and losers?"
What meritocratic method? Who's we? Institutions are free to use whatever method they want. But the law says that you can't (or usually can't) use race.
Institutions are free to use whatever method they want. But the law says that you can’t (or usually can’t) use race.
1) You don't want them to have that freedom.
2) Do you think I don't think Harvard admissions is part of the systemic problem?
3) You switched the goalposts to being about what's legal, except then you declare what has been found to be legal is actually illegal. That kind of incoherence is what happens when you're outcome oriented.
"1) You don’t want them to have that freedom."
Um, I'm pretty sure you don't want them to have the freedom either. That's the whole point.
"You switched the goalposts to being about what’s legal, except then you declare what has been found to be legal is actually illegal."
No I didn't. I used a description broad enough to cover either position.
I don't want to force schools to do AA. You want to force them not to.
You say the law says we can't use race, except...that's demonstrably not what the law says.
Again, playing games.
"I don’t want to force schools to do AA. You want to force them not to."
But you want to force schools not to use other preferences. You don't want institutions to be free to use whatever method they want.
I don’t think that, so I’m not sure where you got that from.
You... thinks schools should be allowed to discriminate against minorities? I wouldn't have thought that.
What are you talking about? You seem to think you’ve trapped me but you are playing so coy and smug I have no idea what you are saying.
I like AA as a policy option, but not as a top down mandatory requirement.
"underserved communities. "
Talk about begging the question. That term does it in spades.
It’s trivially true unless you think there are genetic differences in intelligence.
Sarcs low opinion of blacks resurfaces.
Show me a "centuries old" person and you'd have a point.
We’d be foolish to leave all these talented Americans behind just because we have decided to not look for them.
Your bull-headed shallow takes continue to be lame.
You do realize you are making Bernstein's point. Centuries of racial oppressions applies only to Blacks, and even then only to Blacks whose ancestors have been in the United States (or the colonies) for generations. It does not apply to other racial groups. Nor to Blacks who came here later (like Barack Obama's father).
And your statement is too facile. The alternative to race-based affirmative action is socioeconomic-status-based affirmative action. Which is more targeted to those most in need, and has the decided advantage of not violating the 14th Amendment. Nor does it perpetuate racial division, since helping the poor is not something generally resented, nor does it carry across generations.
Given Roberts' record on voting rights, I don't think he is particularly concerned with ending discrimination based on race, at least in that arena.
You expect racist leftists and academics to ever come to that conclusion?
So, once again, two wrongs make a right. Got it.
No, it's more along the lines of the consequences of bad behavior don't go away just because you stop engaging in the bad behavior. The Menendez brothers haven't committed a murder in something like 30 years but they're still in prison.
No, bad behavior can finally be laid to rest when it has been repented of and restitution has been made. Otherwise it just continues to fester. And anyone who says "I'm not the one who did it" or "that was a long time ago" or "two wrongs don't make a right" is simply acknowledging being part of the problem by being thoroughly unrepentant of the bad behavior. Your lack of willingness to make the past right makes you every bit as culpable as those who actually did do it.
One can only repent for something one is responsible for.
When do you expect our vestigial bigots to repent?
You mean the Kristen Clarkes of the world?
I was thinking more of the deplorable, obsolete, worthless right-wing racists, gay-bashers, misogynists, immigrant-haters, Islamophobes, and other culture war casualties who continue to control the Republican Party and animate conservatism.
Vestigial bigots?
You mean people who use words like "deplorable" "obsolete" and "worthless" to describe other humans?
And who actually uses "white male" as a pejorative?
If my father stole a painting from an art museum, I'm not "responsible" in the sense of having committed the crime, but I'd still have a moral obligation to return it. So long as my family continues to reap the benefits of having stolen property, we're responsible.
But that's not even the issue here. The fury and outrage with which the right responded to the prospect of introducing students to critical race theory -- you can't even talk about past wrongs and how they contributed to the current state of affairs -- tells me that the country, or at least a significant part of it, has never repented for the wrongs that were done. These were national sins. Yes, the individual slaveholders and Jim Crow practitioners were individually culpable, but it was also a sin at a national level. Unless and until there's a moral reckoning at the national level, the nation continues to be culpable.
That is not what critical race theory is.
"past wrongs and how they contributed to the current state of affairs" is absolutely the bedrock concept of CRT. Understanding that, and thence how to remedy the institutional issues inherent in that state of affairs is kind of the whole shebang.
Check out Will Baude's podcast deep dive on it!
No, that's one small component of CRT. If CRT were limited to that discussion, it would be uncontroversial.
Where CRT becomes controversial is with the claims that those past wrongs are permanent, that we have not yet and cannot ever grow past them, that they were entirely the fault of one race and that even children too young to know what the wrongs were are somehow still responsible for them.
I reject the premise that "the sins of the father shall visit the son unto the seventh generation". And that is the unspoken but bedrock concept of CRT. Understanding “past wrongs and how they contributed to the current state of affairs” is just History. CRT goes far beyond the discipline of history.
Where are you getting that CRT says whites today are responsible for slavery?!
I don't believe CRT says any of that. I fear you have been shown a strawman, and take it for truth.
I know you read the articles here at Reason. You've commented on many of them. From those very articles, the proponents of CRT stood condemned by their own mouths.
You may argue that I am being unreasonably harsh in my characterization of their words. I counter that you are being unreasonably lenient. I have read and heard rabidly racist things from CRT proponents - things that would be wildly unacceptable and that would get you immediately fired if said with the races reversed.
I have read and heard rabidly homicidal things from evangelical Christians. That doesn't mean Christianity endorses rabid homicide.
That's not my understanding of CRT either. Full disclosure: When CRT first became an issue, I was totally unfamiliar with it, so I read several books by both proponents and opponents of it. It was my experience that what opponents of CRT claimed it meant bore little resemblance to what its proponents actually said.
As far as visiting the sins of the fathers on the children, I view that as meaning that the collateral consequences of bad behavior continue even after the bad actors have passed from the scene. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if slave traders hadn't brought slaves here centuries ago, and most of our racial unrest can be traced to their bad behavior. But that's collateral consequences, and yes, in that sense, the sins of the fathers are visited on the children.
Fancy that, the motte and the baily bear little resemblance to each other. Who would have guessed.
So you just make up a definition and decide that’s the secretly real one and not to listen to the practitioners.
Typical Brett.
Rossami is right that if that was all of CRT, it would be totally uncontroversial.
I don't think Rossami has it totally right, and I'm no expert, but I've read several CRT sources, and it does *require* that racism continues as a structural problem in otherwise facially neutral institutions. (I don't feel like it necessarily blames modern individuals as racist, per se, but it does argue that many institutions are irredeemably racist, including much of government).
How is what you just said different from “past wrongs…contributed to the current state of affairs”
Because past wrongs are not facially neutral. They’re *wrongs*. You can identify *how* they’re wrong, and stop being wrong. (Edit: and provide recompense for the specific wrongs you committed, as appropriate).
And CRT, in my understanding, is anti-incrementalist. You can’t fix systemic racism by tinkering with the system, because everything that touches the system becomes corrupted by the existing systemic racism no matter how good the intentions.
(Having read some CRT and CRT-influenced works, it’s not clear to me how the systemic racism is ‘systemic’ a lot of the time. The idea with systemic racism is that its hard to isolate because it pervades the entire system in an insidious way. However, often there are particular acts of racism in the past that can be pointed to, and that the scholars do point to, at which point its not a system problem, its a deliberate act of racism problem, and that act (and the consequences thereof) can, at least theoretically, be isolated and dealt with. (Not that CRT scholars believe that last part – the whole idea of systemic racism is its not fixable like that). So i disagree with the CRT scholars that a lot of what they talk about is actually systemic in the way they mean it. This is of course a fact-intensive inquiry, but i have yet to see a set of facts that actually supports the nebulous un-isolatable system-wide racism CRT alleges. (Which is why I disagree with CRT. I have read CRT works because I was hoping to find an example that survived such a fact-intensive inquiry).)
That past wrongs contributed in some sense to current wrongs, on its own, doesn’t get you into actual CRT. Literally everyone believes that.
"I’d still have a moral obligation to return it"
If you knew it was stolen and inherited, then you have a legal obligation to return it. Otherwise, you are guilty of a separate crime.
But that's the whole point. I am not culpable for things that happened in the past. I am unrepentant because I have nothing to repent for. The only amends I can make is to not engage in those practices.
There is no such thing as muti-generational guilt for past wrongs. That's like a secular version of Original Sin.
There is multi generational collateral consequences that don’t go away. If you’re not persuaded by the moral argument, how about by the simple fact that these collateral consequences will continue until the issue has been dealt with.
That's the point. I can say how awful and terrible the past was, and I do. That doesn't change the fact that all that can be done today is to resolve to not do those awful and terrible things.
No, that's not all that can be done today. Attempting to remedy the effects of past wrongs can also be done.
And while I totally understand that you personally didn't do it, that misses the point of this is a corporate wrong that needs to be fixed. Are you part of the United States? Then you share responsibility for the wrongs committed by the United States. And that's the whole point: Corporate wrongs result in corporate responsibility.
"Attempting to remedy the effects of past wrongs" can be done but when the act of doing so creates new wrongs, then it shouldn't be done.
It's not a new wrong. It's corporate responsibility. These were corporate wrongs, and you're part of the corporation.
Replacing "collective" with "corporate" doesn't make the notion of collective guilt any more defensible.
Let's nail this down. In your theory of the "corporate wrong", what precisely are you talking about?
If you are talking about slavery, that "corporate wrong" was redressed by the corporation through the Civil War - a massive outpouring of blood and capital.
I would further argue that neither I nor any of my ancestors were part of the corporation when those wrongs were committed. (They were still starving peasants in Europe then.) Nor were many your proposed beneficiaries (or their ancestors) in the US at the time.
To the extent that you think I'm somehow still part of the corporation, so are all the people you propose to be beneficiaries.
If you're talking about more generalized "discrimination" since the end of the Civil War, most of the same arguments still apply. Someone newly emigrated from Sweden owes nothing to someone newly emigrated from Nigeria merely because other white people used to do bad things to other black people.
I am unpersuaded that the accident of being born in the US makes me responsible for the sins of the government in the past. I'm not even persuaded I'm responsible for the sins it commits today. (Maybe if I'd actually voted for someone who then became president or a congressman there might be a tiny amount of responsibility, but no candidate I've ever voted for has been elected).
Currentsitguy — The premise of your resistance sorts poorly with your explanation:
That doesn’t change the fact that all that can be done today is to resolve to not do those awful and terrible things.
No. You resist proposals to actively do otherwise, and you know it. That is what your commentary has been about. Stop fooling yourself. There is no point. You are not fooling anyone else, and they will remind you that what you say does not make sense.
I don't think culpability is the right question. In fact, I'm not sure anyone but you is talking about it.
Yes, but their descendants aren't.
(I suppose you could argue that the injustice done to Jose and Mary Louise Menendez continues to have adverse consequences on *their* descendants, but that's because their descendants are serving life sentences for the murder of their parents, Jose and Mary Louise Menendez.)
“The Menendez brothers haven’t committed a murder in something like 30 years but they’re still in prison.”
Just to be clear, an entire race or ethnicity can be accounted guilty of the crimes of members of the race or ethnicity.
This whole doctrine worked so well in the Balkans. Recall how much the Turks oppressed the Serbs, and the atrocities committed by Croatians against the Serbs in WWII.
Therefore, nobody had any moral standing to complain when Serbia invaded Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, and maybe gave those people a taste of their own medicine.
Conversely, the Croatians and Bosnians have the right to retaliate against Serbs for the atrocities of the 1990s and…I don’t know, check out a volume of nationalistic history by the aggrieved group and find out all the stuff that has to be avenged.
That’s what Balkan nationalists actually believe. And apparently it’s what the supporters of American racial preferences actually believe.
The difference is that we point and laugh, or get indignant, at the Balkan peoples for behaving this way, and point out how by tearing and rending each other they’re just harming themselves.
But enough about some remote peninsula, let’s get to the important work of racial justice in the USA!
Most of the people who engaged in bad behavior are DEAD.
Seamus, Margrave, and DWB, you are missing the point. The issue is not personal culpability for immoral acts. The issue is corporate responsibility for the acts of the United States as a corporate entity. Are you part of the United States? If so, you share responsibility for the bad acts of the corporation.
If General Motors gets sued because a defective part killed someone, most of the individual shareholders had nothing to do with it, but they're going to share in the financial hit regardless. Ditto the innocent taxpayer whose city is forced to pay out a big judgment for police misconduct. The fact that you, personally, had nothing to do with it is entirely beside the point.
"If so, you share responsibility for the bad acts of the corporation. "
Collective multi generational guilt is an anti-american concept.
So, according to you, is a corporate entity taking responsibility for its acts.
When is breaking the law a good way to take responsibility for previous legal-but-immoral acts?
Well beyond merely running contrary to basic american tenets, it runs counter Enlightenment ideals. It's a bludgeon used against one's foes, and little more.
So you’re taking responsibility for, say, the Tuskegee experiments? Not me. I had absolutely zero influence over that stuff.
And you draw a cartoon version of the history of the country and its individual citizens. Take me. I have a lot of Caucasian ancestry, and I also have a large indigenous (Cherokee) branch in my ancestry. Quite a few of the latter walked the Trail. Shifted forward to today, am I oppressed or am I oppressing? Am I to pay or receive?
Your philosophy on this is hopelessly simple.
It's simple because we're still discussing the first step. There are details that would need to be worked out, but we're not there yet.
If I just internalize mine and transfer some money from one of my accounts to another, am I clear of any sins?
Oh, I get it, and like many ivory-tower ideas it sounds so geometrically precise and beautiful in its logic, being untainted with contamination with reality.
But of course, we’re not talking about punishment of a distinct corporate entity, are we? We’re talking about what one race supposedly owes to another, and races don’t have corporate identities in the same way the American Union has a corporate identity.
If we were talking about the guilt of the United States as a corporate entity, something for which innocent citizens must pay, then that proves too much, because black Americans would have to do some of the paying, wouldn’t they? They’re part of the United States, and they’re of course innocent. Which makes them perfect candidates to pay for the sins of the United States, along with innocent whites and asians! But we’re not taking these ideas to their logical conclusion, are we?
We’re *really* talking about the white and asian races (a chilling phraseology, but that's where your "logic" takes you) as corporate entities owing restitution to the black, hispanic and Native American races.
That’s where Bernstein’s work comes in handy – showing the reality-based consequences of this ivory-tower nonsense. Where does one race end and the other begin? Why do descendants of white Spaniards get victim status, and how do you diffentiate between a hispanic/latinx person and someone who isn’t?
And in addition to the problems Bernstein points out, suppose this were actually about the guilt of the American Union as a corporate entity. Would immigrants and applicants for naturalization have to sign a form acknowledging that they are inheriting the original sins of slavery and Jim Crow and Native American oppression, etc., and that as a member of a guilty nation, the applicant will have to share in the guilt?
Even God himself, at his most Old Testamentish, offered to let sinful nations off the hook if they repented, and only if he didn’t would he impose collective punishments. When the Ninevites repented in order to avert the divine wrath, God let them off the hook, without requiring reparations from Ninevah.
But we have at least one thing going for us…this is a time of profound peace and unchallenged American power, so we can freely fight amongst ourselves without worrying that some hostile foreign power will try to take advantage of our divisions to hurt us.
Any time the taxpayers pay for something, all taxpayers are getting dinged. If I successfully sue the city, well, I'm a city taxpayer so I'm going to end up paying for some of my award. So questions about where one race ends and another begins are beside the point. If, just to pick a number out of the air, corporate responsibility were to cost $50 million, that cost would be divvied up among all taxpayers, including those what would be sharing in the award. This is not as complex as you're attempting to make it.
That’s not what this is about, it’s not about GM or the American Union taking responsibility for some specific act and paying a specific amount of compensation based on specific incidents, it’s even worse than “pick[ing] a number out of the air” as you put it. It’s about an open-ended commitment that jobs and contracts, etc., be redistributed to an arbitrarily defined group of people, many of whom (as Bernstein documents) will suddenly “discover” an identity they hadn’t had before.
But unlike your number picked out of the air, there is no logical limit to the “damages.” This isn’t about a city being assesed $50 million and paying it, it’s about certain races having collective guilt and having an open-ended responsibility to compensate other races, a responsibility which goes on indefinitely without a numerical limit.
The geometrical precision of your verbal formulae gives way in practice to a generalized resentment and a reparation policy without measurable bounds or limits.
So Krychek_2, you are saying that when two black guys stole my TV, "Black Guy Corporation" really did it and I should hold ALL black men responsible?
Pass.
No, that's not what I'm saying.
The US Government, through its Congress, passed laws providing for slavery (including the Fugitive Slave Act), refused to enforce the civil rights of blacks during the Jim Crow era, looked the other way during lynch law, and itself engaged in various acts that furthered discrimination. Federal law enforcement routinely enabled both slavery and Jim Crow. It did that as an institution.
So, when "Black Guy Corporation" enacts actual racist legislation, get back to me. Otherwise that's just about the stupidest comparison I've ever seen.
You do realize that black people owned slaves, have held elective office for years and have enacted racially discriminatory legislation for years? Not to mention "Africa Corporation" that enslaved and sold slaves all over the world?
And let us not forget over 70% of blacks who voted for team D since the 1930s!!!!!!, enabling Democrats to enforce Jim Crow and stop civil rights bills.
Your racist worldview fails the light of day and close examination.
DWB — Krychek has gone to great lengths to explain patiently that there is nothing here about what one race owes to another. That various people can't seem to understand his clear explanation tells something about why long-term persistence of the effects of racism are a stubbornly enduring problem.
I have questions for you. Do you suppose the Supreme Court can order Blacks to shut up about systemic economic inequality? Do you suppose agitation for substantive equality will die out without vindication? What do you think is going to happen?
He and you have ignored several people's attempts at pointing out the patently racist positions you are taking.
Systems based upon racial/tribal grievance usually end in death, violence and war -- America is not immune.
STOP
"should be a state interest of the highest order"
Judges arguing about how things "should be," like a legislature.
But yes, Prof. B. makes a good point.
The diversity "rationale" is not inherently dishonest. I can't see the NYT article, but I can imagine what it says. Yes, obviously, there are pro-affirmative-action people who see diversity as the next-best thing. So? You take what you can get. That doesn't mean we shouldn't take diversity seriously. There are many of us who agree precisely with Justice Powell and disagree with Justice Marshall. Diversity is an important and valuable goal distinct from affirmative action.
And you don't even have to presume good faith. The courts in the Harvard case did a super-thorough examination and determined that their admissions program satisfied strict scrutiny. Why isn't that enough for you to begrudgingly admit that diversity can stand apart from affirmative action?
The word "inherently" is doing all the work in your comment. No, diversity is not "inherently" dishonest; writing on a blank slate behind a Rawlsian veil of ignorance, one might choose to enact policies designed to ensure diversity.
But people who claim the diversity rationale in our actual world are being dishonest. They are not motivated by a desire for actual diversity, and do not act in ways designed to promote actual diversity. It's just a euphemism for racial preferences for specific groups. Saying that you "agree with Justice Powell" is particularly ironic, because Powell touted the so-called Harvard Plan, which he quoted them uncritically as having recently "expanded the concept of diversity." But the Harvard Plan had never been about actual diversity; it was about keeping Jews out. The school was perfectly fine when the university was kept all white and upper class. But when Jews started to be accepted in large numbers, all of the sudden they needed a non-overtly anti-meritocratic way to prevent that from happening, so they came up with this notion of "diversity."
That doesn't taint the idea of diversity for all time. What's the problem with Harvard's policy as it exists today, that is, where do you disagree with the courts' analysis?
The district and CA1 in the harvard case did the same thing that the CA6 did in Grutter in the findings of fact. Basically the three courts ignored reality and some how pulled diversity out of thin air. Note that the trial court in Grutter found the annual quota of 19-21 african americans in each years student body over approximately 8-12 years. See also Thomas' foot note in his grutter dissent. CA6 using de novo finding a fact, took UofM's briefings as gospel and found "diversity"
Both the trial court in Harvard and CA1 the same thing, except the CA1 didnt have to pull the de novo stunt because the district court arrived at the "right "answer" which departed from reality.
In what way did the district court depart from reality?
Let me guess: it didn't cast the Harvard admissions officers as sufficiently cannibalistic babyfuckers?
The question, though, is what kind of "diversity." That one's educational experience may be enhanced by exposure to people with different backgrounds seems unobjectionable as a proposition. But when that diversity is limited to racial/ethinic diversity, and leaves out other kinds of diversity, then one suspects that diversity is merely a fig leaf for racial discrimination.
When I was in college, I was friendly with a number of foreign students, and their perspective as coming from a foreign country was valuable to me. But that was because of where they came from, not their racial background. The Korean student who grew up in Korea, for example. I am dubious that it would have been anywhere near as educaiton if he had been a 3d generation ethnic Korean who grew up in an upper-middle class U.S. suburb and spoke English as his first language.
Yes, but there's no evidence that Harvard leaves out other kinds of diversity, and tons of evidence that race is just one of many dimensions of diversity they consider, and not even a particularly highly weighted one.
So where is the proof that this attempt to remedy past wrongs has had any positive effect after 50 years?
Let's say it did---it still does not justify burdening completely innocent people.
If Thurgood Marshall wanted a pass from the Volokh Conspiracy, he should have befriended Candace Owens, worn a MAGA hat and a "White Lives Matter" shirt, kissed Trump's ass, and generally been as delusional and antisocial as a QAnon-style Republican.
Carry on, clingers.
Hmmmm. So to point out the fact that Marshall's argument doesn't align with the actual facts is cause for vituperation?
No . . . to point out the pass some vivid bigots get at this white, male, right-wing blog.
So now criticism of an African-American Supreme Court is presumptively bigoted. Where were you when Harry Reid ragged on Clarence Thomas?
Who gets a pass when you're on duty?
Keith Richards, maybe, or Bruce Springsteen, to some degree?
Number of posts this month by RAK: Dozens.
Number of posts with any substance: Zero.
Here's another problem--what if the decisionmaker is a kook like Kristen Clarke?
Been rereading Foner on Reconstruction, and it is really striking how much damage the Court in the late 19th century did to this country by its botched interpretation of the Reconstruction Amendments. And that damage was compounded by the failure of the Warren Court and later courts to actually grapple with that prior failure.
It refused to acknowledge that the point of the amendments were a fundamental realignment of state-federal relations and they were designed to empower Congress to take the lead on civil rights enforcement. And after quashing Congress it decided that color-blindness was important sometimes and that sometimes it wasn't. It ignored and permitted clear discrimination sometimes and sometimes not. It pretended text was paramount to impose color-blindness, but the historical backdrop was important when it didn't want to have equal rights for women or others.
Planter logic won the day at the Court and it still does.
Congress needs to reassert its authority and amend Title VI to permit race conscious affirmative action. Say it is to enforce the original promise of the 14th Amendment, the Civil Rights cases and Cruikshank were wrongly decided. Say that it is providing the opportunities that were wrongly denied to the descendants of freedmen and that because race conscious admissions must be used for that purpose, other race conscious admissions can be done as an ancillary matter.
When the Court says that's wrong, Congress should tell them to fuck off and they're done pretending what the Court considers "appropriate legislation" has any meaning since they've been consistently wrong for 150 years. Pull their funding or add justices who actually understand Reconstruction.
So when will we be reading about your nomination to the SC?
Never. Because I went to a school that trains actual lawyers. It also hurts that I understand that my three year degree in reading the excerpts of whatever judges write does not magically turn me into a philosopher king, let alone a historian.
...but you feel free to claim the the Court has been wrong for 150 years?
Yep. Because unlike them I've actually bothered to read the historians of reconstruction, and it is obvious.
That the Supreme court had deliberately "botched" its rulings on the Reconstruction amendments to terminate Reconstruction was what they taught in my American history class in HS, in the 70's. (The teacher was a Civil war and Reconstruction buff, I think we spent maybe one day on the rest of American history, but we sure learned everything about THAT period.)
Isn't that the standard take on what happened?
And I've often criticized the Supreme court for their cowardice in confronting that. We got that stupid oxymoron, "substantive due process", because they couldn't bring themselves to just admit the Slaughterhouse decisions were wrong, and so they found a work around to accomplish incorporation via the back door, being too cowardly to open the front door their predecessors had slammed shut. And perhaps worse, because their work-around let them pick and choose what to incorporate.
But I can't agree with you about race conscious measures. There are no slaves to be liberated here, no slave owners to extract recompense from, the war is not just ended. It's time to be done with emergency measures and enter normal life. To say that the government can racially discriminate today is just an echo of Wallace: "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever."
If you can't identify an objective stopping point for discrimination, then screw it, we'll just stop now.
The planting class won’t reconstruction and it’s too late to fix now. Amazing logic.
Let me be very clear about this: The closest I come to being a "planter" is having a garden in my backyard. At 63 I'm much too young to have been a Southern slave owner, I grew up in Michigan, which was never a slave state, all my ancestors came to this country from other countries where slavery was illegal, well after the civil war. I've got as much to do with the wrongs you're complaining about as I do with the Peloponnesian War. Less; It's possible one of my ancestors WAS involved in that fracas, unlike slavery or Jim Crow. Hell, Obama has more recent slave owning ancestors than me! Why don't you go bug him?
So, you want me to pay a price for Jim Crow? SCREW YOU. Is that clear enough?
I'm not paying your damned Danegeld.
"So, you want me to pay a price for Jim Crow? SCREW YOU. Is that clear enough? I’m not paying your damned Danegeld."
Lol. You are a huge selfish asshole.
Bellmore — Here is the objective stopping point you demand. You research the family wealth of newborn babies in maternity wards. When Black babies on average, and White babies on average, are born into families more-or-less alike in wealth, then it is time to stop.
See my remark to LawTalkingGuy, above. Applies to you, too.
I....don't like federal nullification as a way to deal with bad precedents. Seems like ending an institution when it's more about mending it. Challenging judicial review should not be done lightly - it's been a bullwark against injustice many a time (and is now probably going to do the same against the antidemocratic right), even if not as often as you and I might like.
Since it doesn't really come up in nomination hearings, I don't think the polity generally shares your focus, even if I personally agree that era's precedents are up there as bad decisions go.
I think it only works in this specific context. I mean there could not be a more clear case of judicial aggrandizement than the Court deciding that there are actual judicial standards of what constitutes "appropriate legislation" and then deciding to enforce their version of what is appropriate against Congressional choices in this area.
Once you open that door, though...I don't see that ending well.
Fair enough. But the counter to that is…maybe unelected judicial aggrandizement is much worse than democratic institutions taking power back.
I can see the idea; I'm a pretty dyed in the wool institutionalist, so I'll disagree.
The current judicial culture of plucking random cases with hot-button issues and then deciding them as right-wing as possible and ignoring past precedent to do so is indeed pretty bad.
But on balance, I think it's still better than Congress overriding the Court when it wants to.
Congress is an institution too. Just sayin.
There’s a better way to solve this than putting a finger on the scales of college admissions (especially since most of the benefits to the black community of that finger on the scales aren’t impoverished descendants of slaves, but well-off black people, many if not most of whom immigrated to the US after the Civil Rights Act): actually prepare them for college!
By the time we get to college administrations, it’s too late to do anything real. Affirmative action is just admitting students who are not prepared for (that) college. Worse, it encourages racism (‘only got in because of affirmative action’ attitudes), and hurts minority students who could get in without affirmative action (because the assumption will be that they got in because of it).
The only real solution is actually preparing minority students for success in college. But that’s actually hard, so it’s little surprise there’s not much interest in actually doing it.
And there’s a ton wrong with how we run schools today, starting with bloated administrative budgets and staff, poor support at the classroom level, and administrative red tape which actively obstructs teachers.
(I do, in fact, work with students at an urban high school. And I’ll be honest, the real work needs to start even earlier).
There is abundant evidence that you are correct that AA is admitting unprepared African American students. But also evidence that it's not too hard to set up an institutional support structure that addresses most of those issues at least at first order.
Also, discrimination has hardly been limited to the descendants of slaves. I personally don't buy the restitution framework for a number of reasons, that being one of them.
"I personally don’t buy the restitution framework for a number of reasons, that being one of them."
But shouldn't different racial groups be forced to give restitution to each other? What about the Menendez brothers, should they just be released from prison?
Do you think prison is only about restitution?!
If you’re going to go full Old Testament and say guilty nations must be punished collectively:
The Egyptians had to surrender their spoils to the Hebrew ex-slaves (in a one-time-only payment, by the way), but they *also* had to suffer several plagues and the death of their firstborn.
Yet in contrast, the Ninevites repented and even the Old Testament God averted his wrath.
With our Evangelical Protestant heritage, the fiery Northern preachers said the Civil War was a divine punishment of a guilty nation for the sin of slavery, a doctrine which Lincoln seemed to sympathize with in his Second Inaugural. Modern, right-thinking people have dropped God out of the equation but are still into the vengeance part of the story, and the vials of wrath must continue to be poured out on America for slavery even after the Civil War.
As for Jim Crow and analogous oppression in the North, at least you can argue that we haven’t had our cataclysmic comeuppance yet, the way we did with slavery. Maybe that comeuppance can take the form of reparations? (sparing us the frogs and the angel of death?)
But let’s not do any bait and switch – the reparations policy you advocate with such geometrical precision has little to do with the racial preference policies we actually have. On this plane of reality, Spanish-surnamed government contractors get a leg up on government contracts, even if they’re as white as Wonder Bread.
And what counts toward paying the reparations bill? How about stuff like race-neutral education aid, public libraries, and other policies without the label “reparations,” but which do happen to benefit at least some of the people we’re supposedly concerned about? Or do we leave these out of consideration because they don’t have the “reparations” label?
And if this *does* count toward the reparations bill, how much is that bill anyway? Even the Versailles Treaty had a goal by which reparations would be complete (how did that reparations policy work, by the way?).
Now, I will acknowledge that I didn’t fully differentiate between Krychek2 and Sarcastro, so it’s possible I’ve confused some of their ideas with each other. I’m not sure which of you to apologize to about that.
I'm not sure I buy some general discrimination penalty for, say, all black people. IIRC, Nigerian-Americans are one of the most well-off groups, doing better than whites, jews, and just about any asian group you care to name.
I'm no Marxist, in this case class matters substantially more than race.
Agreed - any kind of blanket statement about any demographic group of size will be wrong in some way. You'll find exceptions with respect to class as well.
We do a better job supporting foreign students in some ways, not in others (visas remain a nightmare they don't need to be).
But that doesn't mean we should neglect a group just because some members of the group don't need help. For talent development issues, if nothing else.
"But also evidence that it’s not too hard to set up an institutional support structure that addresses most of those issues at least at first order."
The paucity of such support structures suggests that it is, in practice, too hard.
That's all reasonable. But I guess for my point that just means Congress needs to do ameliorative race conscious policy focused at earlier ages or more root economic causes of disparities.
Why Congress?
Hey white liberals – don’t armchair govern this. Get involved in local schools, especially urban schools. Coach something. Tutor something. Get involved. Voluntary boots on the ground matter a lot more than congress fumbling around.
Because the 14th amendment gives them the power. Still haven’t finished Second Founding. America’s Unfinished Revolution.
School choice and vouchers would be a good start, ending public unions and returning control of government schools to the localities or ending government involvement altogether.
How very Mark Graber of you, but you might want to first consider the likely future negative repercussions of Congress saying "fuck off" to the Supreme Court.
When the Court says that’s wrong, Congress should tell them to fuck off and they’re done pretending what the Court considers “appropriate legislation” has any meaning since they’ve been consistently wrong for 150 years. Pull their funding or add justices who actually understand Reconstruction.
So, any Supreme Court decisions or Constitutional provisions that get in Congress's way can be ignored simply by Congress asserting that it's enacting "appropriate legislation" to enforce the 13th, 14th, or any of the voting-rights amendments? Excuse me for not trusting Congress with such unfettered authority.
The converse of that is that you apparently trust the Supreme Court, who are unelected life-time appointments with practically no public accountability, to act as an unelected Supreme Legislature that gets to decide what is "appropriate" legislation. That is a system more similar to the one Iran has than the one the 39th Congress designed.
It's called checks and balances. Your way results in an all-powerful Congress that could be stopped only by a rebellion/revolution/civil-war.
Why is an all powerful judicial branch more likely to avoid civil war than an all powerful elected legislature?
Congress legislating and the Courts consistently saying NUH-UH whenever they don’t like a policy isn’t a check or balance, it’s just the judicial branch running the country instead of the elected branches.
Should add that the Court propelled the country further to Civil War in Dred Scott. The Court then hobbled the ability of Congress and the executive to deal with Reconstruction violence. Once the Court said the CRA and VRA were okay and the feds started endocrine civil rights issues there was a lot less political violence!
Welcome to the "Marbury was wrongly decided" club!
Eh. Not exactly. I think Marbury was right in some sense wrong in others. It is actually correct that Congress couldn’t expand the original jurisdiction of the Court and that there was no judicial remedy available. Refusing to provide a remedy is actually judicial restraint in a sense. It was also right in a broad sense that it has to make constitutional judgments and there are some obvious cases where it couldn’t act. For instance Marshall is right that they can’t pretend an ex post facto law isn’t ex post facto. They wouldn’t sentence a particular defendant to prison for instance.
Where I think the problem lies is in remedies and substituting it’s policy judgment in areas the constitution clearly gives to the elected branches and when Congress has clearly given broad authority to expert agencies. Saying broad swathes of policy are illegal because they aren’t “appropriate” or because they violate some made-up structural argument based on tenuous history is where the problem lies.
Judicial review [established in Marbury] says that the Supreme Court is the authority on what the words in the Constitution mean.
So, under Marbury, the Court, not Congress, has the final say on what is “appropriate” in 14A.
You want judicial review not to apply to “appropriate” but are ok with it applying to the rest of the Constitution.
No. What I want is constitutional humility. Marbury is right the court has to make constitutional determinations at various points. It’s wrong to suggest it’s the final arbiter of all questions for all time.
Tend to agree with Bernstein, with the following notes:
1. To the extent this is about redress for continuing effects of past morally outrageous discrimination, Blacks and Native Americans stand apart from all other categories. Historically, no other groups suffered anything like the infliction of chattel slavery, or Jim Crow, except Native Americans who arguably suffered worse. Those were targeted for actual genocide, followed by systemic expropriation for the survivors. Consequences of those unique and uniquely forceful historical inflictions continue, and remain unrivaled by other groups' historical claims, however justified those might be.
2. Insistence on no use of quotas has done the opposite of what may have been intended, resulting in uncontrolled expansion of affirmative action policies in the name of vaguely defined, "diversity." Bernstein is right on that basis to criticize the, "diversity," rationale.
On the other hand, taken as an issue apart from redress for Blacks and Native Americans, diversity among a student body, defined however educational administrators suppose will prove educationally helpful, deserves consideration. An academic preference for cultural diversity cannot in a nation so diverse as this one sensibly be prohibited by national policy. How could it even be done, except on the basis of a non-existent and politically impossible policy premise of meritocracy? Regardless of what the Constitution might be interpreted to say, one way or the other, the American political system will prove incapable to deliver any legally enforceable definition of, "merit," which could serve that purpose.
3. With a willingness to reaffirm commitment to quotas-based redress for Blacks and Native Americans who demonstrably still suffer economic consequences of past discriminatory policies, the nation could begin a process to dismantle affirmative action for others, and do so on a reasonable basis. Aid and results for compensated individuals could be made a matter of record. Adverse consequences in the way of foregone opportunities for others could be recorded. Policies to prevent repeated forced sacrifice by, for instance, particular low status white males could be implemented.
With the right record keeping, everyone could become aware of how well particular polices progressed, and could somewhat predict when the goal might be reached. Thus, the right combination of policies could offer potential to unite the nation behind completion of the task of redress.
In those ways the nation could begin a process to reaffirm its ideals of equality for all, and give that goal a better chance of being realized. It could turn aside from its present dangerous path—which provokes embittered hostility from some who count themselves unequally-treated equality-policy victims. Those, at times justifiably, conclude they have been made to pay too high a price, while others situated more advantageously get bypassed for sacrifice. It ought to be evident by now that to continue that way will prove at least unwise and troublesome, and possibly catastrophic.
"An academic preference for cultural diversity cannot in a nation so diverse as this one sensibly be prohibited by national policy."
Sure, but institutions should be able to articulate what that actually means, presumably in terms of a candidate's outlook and experience, rather than relying on race as a proxy. This is especially true because legal and social discrimination based upon race has been decreasing over time.
institutions should be able to articulate what that actually means, presumably in terms of a candidate’s outlook and experience
That's been done. It turns out that race is still the best proxy for what institutions like Harvard are looking for. It's all in the district court record.
" Insistence on no use of quotas has done the opposite of what may have been intended, resulting in uncontrolled expansion of affirmative action policies in the name of vaguely defined, “diversity.” "
No, what did that wasn't insistence on no use of quotas. It was letting quotas be instituted so long as you pretended you were doing something else. Vaguely define "diversity" is just a mask quotas wear.
Two generations later, I have two questions:
1) Has it helped solve the problem?
2) When does the racism (for all the best reasons, of course) end?
It will end when politicians keen for political advantage attempt to frighten voters with racial bugaboos, and the voters targeted by the politicians, conscious that Blacks are every bit the equal of themselves, just laugh at the politicians.
"racial bugaboos"
These days its liberals/progressives/democrats using race to frighten voters.
HAHAHA
Oh wait you're being serious, let me laugh even harder.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
VP Biden Says Republicans Are 'Going to Put Y'all Back in Chains'
By Jake Tapper August 14, 2012
Oh wow. One quote from ten years ago.
Here’s a sampling from recent years:
“Very often, you know, Black people, frankly.”
—Blake Masters on gun violence
“ They want reparations because they think the people that do the crime are owed that.”
—Tommy Tuberville at a rally where people cheered.
KJB will “humiliate and degrade” our nation — turning it into “Rwanda.”
—-Tucker Carlson
And this is just three lay-ups before we even get to Trump, obvious dog-whistles or all the interference Republicans run for people making much more racist (and now antisemitic! appeals).
I mean Stefanik endorsed Carl Paladino who called Michelle Obama a gorilla and wanted her to go back to Africa (she is famously an American citizen).
A wink is as good as a nod. Dude is President after all.
2020 was one long year of your side doing race baiting.
Right-wing racists are among my favorite culture war casualties.
That their bigotry is also going to drag down most or all of their political platform -- the guns nuttery, the anti-abortion absolutism, the privilege for superstition -- in a modern, improving America is beautiful.
"Right-wing racists are among my favorite culture war casualties."
As opposed to left-wing racists, which are your most favored people as far as I can tell.
Also, keep crying about the 2nd Amendment, loser. It's delicious.
Your bias precedes you, but on carlson, as stupid as the beginning of his comment was, the closing provides context. Context which doesn't fit the narrative. “Do you want to live in that country? Most people don’t, of all colors. They think you should be elevated in America based on what you do, on the choices not on how you were born, not on your DNA, because that’s Rwanda.” Say what you want, carlson is correct, most people do not want to live in a country where DNA is the deciding factor for any selection -we wouldn't be seeing the comments here if people did want this. As for Masters, I have no idea what the context was, but devoid of context, it's not racist to point out that black folks carry out a large portion of violent crime in the US. It's a fact, and one that is unfortunate.
I've been given to understand, repeatedly, that some facts are racist, and only racists acknowledge them.
That’s because you believe the Bell Curve and don’t believe any of its critics.
That selective skepticism is not facts, that is you clinging to your preferred narrative.
It's because I've READ the Bell Curve, and understood the arguments, which is more than can be said of a lot of people who attack it.
Sarcastro, have you ever read the Bell Curve?
It's quite unclear to me how government-sponsored racial discrimination against whites and Asians, and in favor of blacks and others, will convince voters that 'Blacks are every bit the equal of themselves' since the discrimation itself is prima facie evidence that the latter groups (blacks andothers) aren't equal. Race-blind policies by the government, on the other hand, are an explicit expression that the government is treating individuals as equal before the law. (I am leaving aside the whole question of racial discrimination by private institutions, in part, because it is a much more difficult question, e.g. is it acceptable for Ebony Magazine to hire only blacks?).
Does preference for veterans in government hiring similarly bother you? Do you believe it says that veterans are incompetent, weak losers?
Yes, it does, you half-witted moron.
Marshall refers to "Negroes" and "the Negro" many times in his opinion, but never references any other minority group.
Justice Marshall was a racist -- this is a shock????
That is an incredibly stupid takeaway.
Racism IS stupid, so ....
Wait, are you calling yourself a stupid racist? I'm either not getting the joke or it's true.
Funny thing is that AA these days mostly negatively affects Asians, who had nothing to do with either slavery or Jim Crow. Plenty of white liberals here saying that's ok, because of "planter logic" or collective guilt or other nonsense.
It's not nonsense. The logic you are using, where any ameliorative race-conscious policy is per se oppression, was the exact logic used by the planter class in Reconstruction.
Go read Foner, or Richard White, or literally any other competent historian on this topic.
Or better yet. Skip the books and review the manuscript and archival collections they reviewed and you'll come to the same conclusion.
Funny thing is that AA these days mostly negatively affects Asians, who had nothing to do with either slavery or Jim Crow.
Those darn Asians with their planter logic.
It’s planter logic when you use it dude. Because you side with them. Because you’re an undisputed asshole who thinks the villains in movies and history are the hero. You’re Eric Cartman without the charm or wit.
Foner is a leftist asshole who can't read a historical document without Herr Marx invading his head. His is the current taste, but I will suggest that his and his neo-reconstructionist school of history will fade away, if serious academic history is still allowed to exist in the near future.
There are bad takes and then there is this. Neo-Reconstructionist? I suppose you think the Dunning School and Lost Cause are serious academic history.
But I am sorry to inform you that Foner is a serious academic historian who knows more about Reconstruction than anyone alive today.
Don't you know that when Asians excel, that's just an example of white supremacy? If you just read the history of Reconstruction, it's clearly obvious!
If you read the history of reconstruction you wouldn’t be saying race conscious admissions is the real oppression.
It doesn't have to be as bad as historical incidents to be both illegal and immoral.
"AA these days mostly negatively affects Asians"
Unfortunately Asians (Chinese) were exploited and oppressed long after the end of the Civil War. Yet today they get the short end of the stick when it comes to racial preferences. It was Japanese who were interred in prison camps long after the Civil War; yet today they get the short end of the stick when it comes to racial preferences.
How many of Marshall's "Negroes" being admitted under these plans are native born and how many are recent African immigrants? Does it matter? If not why?
Why is negroes in scare quotes? And the cohort was almost certainly a mixture of both; does that matter to you? At the time skin color mattered to society a lot more than background.
They are quotation marks (and it is capitalized) to indicate that it is Marshall's use of the term (back when it was considered the proper and respectful term).
I am not a Negro and am not applying to Harvard, but if I were I think it would matter to me that a new arrival from Somalia or Nigeria or wherever got preference because of a program supposedly justified to correct past racism in America.
Moral hazard is not an obvious ill to be ameliorated. Doesn't mean it's nothing, but I don't think your logic is required; some group members not needing help doesn't mean you get to ignore the group.
And I'm also not sure it's established that some black immigrants don't have some overlapping issues to deal with. Socially, we still see race.
I mean, in public you will rarely see black groups complaining about that because they don't want to do anything that undermines affirmative action, but in fact there is a lot of low grumbling about schools boosting their stats without actually admitting ADOS by counting recent black immigrants.
One of the continuing struggles of both the integration and affirmative action cases in the 1960s-70s was to what extent the remedial actions needed to be tied to past discrimination by the defendant. If you could plausibly tie the racial disparity to previous invidious discrimination, your remedial activity was getting upheld. If you couldn’t, you were in much weaker ground.
I've always been ambivalent about AA in university admissions. I understand and have some sympathy for the arguments against it. But still.
First, it's not clear to me what the deciding factors should be. Strict merit as measured, mostly, by grades and test scores? Lots of bias there, I think. And of course there's a lot of outright bias in the whole legacy/donor business.
I mean, if your grandparents didn't have the opportunity to attend Harvard, or most other universities, you are not going to be a legacy. If your father didn't have the opportunity to become wealthy in the real estate business (cough, cough, Jared Kushner) he's not going to be able to buy your admission with a $2.5 million donation.
And suppose, despite going to a crappy high school and being poorly prepared you go to college - maybe a decent state school where admissions are not super-competitive. Well, your grades are going to reflect that poor preparation, so if you want to go on to graduate or professional school, that's still going to hurt you.
So let's not pretend it's merit all the way down.
My sense is that I would give a leg up based (inversely) on parent's income/assets:
-a kid growing up in a singlewide/the projects has had a steeper climb than someone from the prep school track.
-you are going to get a diversity of things than matter, like life experience
-if there is one thing we don't want in America, it is a hereditary aristocracy, and wealth bases AA helps to have a little turnover in the social strata
Well, that's why Harvard makes you write diversity essays these days, I think.
My sense is that I would give a leg up based (inversely) on parent’s income/assets:
I would too. And maybe on some other things that might obscure our so-called objective measures of "merit."
There are a lot of aspects of this problem. One is the inordinate prestige and opportunity our society grants to graduates of elite universities. There may not be much to be done about that, but improving state schools, or especially making them less expensive, might help. Getting people to ignore those damn worthless US News rankings is another.
Another is the poorly defined notions of who exactly "deserves" to be admitted. Is admissions really just a contest, or does the university get some choices. Getting back to the legacy issue, if you want to argue that it;s the school's right to privilege legacies, or the children of big donors, then you are effectively saying it's their right to make admissions decisions based on non-meritocratic criteria.
My sense is that I would give a leg up based (inversely) on parent’s income/assets:
As currently formulated, AA gives the most advantage to those who least need it. Barack Obama's daughters don't need it, but their racial classificaiton gives them maximum advantage.
Bernard,
So how do people defend racial preferences in graduate omissions?
Basically by arguments that sound too much like "those folks never catch up."
Don,
I assume you mean "admissions," not "omissions," though the latter would be an interesting issue also.
I think the justifications vary. There is certainly the claim that racial diversity is desirable in itself. Another is that diversity in the profession, as opposed to the school, has value. I think that makes some sense wrt to law schools, at least.
Graduate admissions are tricky, though I'm not sure we have any kind of decent numbers. Many academic programs are very small, as I'm sure you know, and whether there is a significant AA factor is hard to tell. Has the issue been raised often in this context?
I read this article about belief in meritocracy a while back. It was definitely food for thought. Another article I found later (couldn't find it again quickly), put a little different spin on it, though. There do seem to be the downsides mentioned in the above article regarding believing in merit being rewarded. Mainly, that people tend to justify their current levels of success as being entirely due to their merit and don't examine whether luck or biases may have contributed. That can cause them to perpetuate biases that do exist and resist efforts to mitigate them.
There is an upside that article doesn't mention, though. Believing that you will be rewarded for your merit in the future can serve as motivation. It seems that people are best served, as individuals and as a society, if they believe that their superior efforts now will be rewarded in the future, but if they also remain humble, grateful, and acknowledge the advantages of their circumstances and other people that helped them achieve their current success.
If you really want a summary of race problems in the U.S., check out Dave Nihill. He's an Irish stand-up comic. (Going from memory, so I could be off on the exact wordings.)
"You learn all kinds of things about yourself as an immigrant. Here in America, I'm just another white guy. I'm supposed to have the white guilt. [pause for laughter] I don't have any white guilt. In Ireland, we had potatoes growing in the ground. And we picked them ourselves. [pause for laughter again] We didn't go to an entirely different continent and steal their people to come and pick them for us. Who would do that?"
The 'original sin' of slavery and a century of oppression after it was finally abolished will continue to stain America's promise of freedom and equality until we finish reckoning with it. The racism behind it and that targets many other non-white groups didn't just end with the Civil Rights movement. It wasn't fixed and solved for all time, so that we don't have to worry about it anymore.
It isn't about white "guilt", either. As uncomfortable as it might be for some white people, and some non-white people that don't want to believe that they were disadvantaged growing up or in the present, it won't get fixed by pretending that we can just be race neutral on everything now. Affirmative Action may not be the right approach, but equal opportunity will continue to elude us if we don't do something.
Do you know the difference between stand-up comedy and the law? Facts matter for the second one.
You know the one way that we can never be race-neutral? By fixating on race!
If you want society to be race-neutral, start by being race-neutral.
That's not to say you should ignore discrimination when it happens. But it is to say that you shouldn't read it into situations where it doesn't exist.
Government isn’t society.
Yeah, and?
Government is part of society but even acknowledging that it's only a subset, so what? If you want to be race-neutral, start by being race-neutral.
"If you want society to be race-neutral, start by being race-neutral."
There are many, many people who are invested in society not being race-neutral, and never being so. So the word "want" in that sentence is a planted assumption.
"until we finish reckoning with it"
Ah, yes. Good ol' Judgment Day. By the way when do you expect that to occur exactly?
"As uncomfortable as it might be for some . . . non-white people that don’t want to believe that they were disadvantaged growing up or in the present"
Who gave you the authority to tell people what their experiences have been?
Anyway, personally I don't have a problem with affirmative action, which is discriminating by race (though a specific form of it), when it is conducted by private entities, but I would generally shy away from having the government do that.
So, the Irish never had a slave trade??? Only about 2000 years of it. The English and the Americans (you know, white people) are the people who ENDED slavery. They did not invent it.
CRT is exactly the same argument as Medieval antisemitism. Jews killed Jesus, therefore, they can never be equal.
Would it be oppressive if we offered Blacks, and only Blacks, free government-supplied heroin?
Yes
It surprises me how little knowledge there is of the Robber’s Cave experiment or the implications of it.
How do you cause strife between two groups? 1. Make it understood there are two groups 2. see 1