The Volokh Conspiracy
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On the Originalist Case that Racial Preferences by Government are Constitutional
The case falls short on several grounds.
I am reprinting a post from 2012, again pertinent given that the Supreme Court is about to hear arguments in the Harvard and UNC affirmative action cases. (Harvard is a private university, but under precedent it's held to the same anti-discrimination standards as public universities via Title VI of the 1964 Civil Rights Act).
The Constitutional Accountability Center has filed an interesting amicus brief in the Fisher affirmative action case on behalf of six prominent law professor amici. The brief tries to exploit a weakness in conservative Justices' affirmative action opinions, which is that these Justices have almost entirely ignored the question of whether an originalist interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment would allow for race-based legislation meant to advantage African Americans. The brief therefore concentrates on showing that the same Congress that enacted the Fourteenth Amendment passed several race-conscious measures intended to aid African Americans, that these measures were denounced by opponents as class legislation, and that the same Congress rejected versions of the Fourteenth Amendment that would have explicitly banned race-conscious legislation.
I have neither the time nor inclination to check the brief's citations. So let's assume that not just the brief's facts but also the interpretation of those facts (e.g., in terms of which laws count as race-conscious) are accurate. It nevertheless strikes me as only marginally helpful, at best, for at least two reasons.
First, unless I somehow missed it, every piece of race-conscious Reconstruction-era legislation mentioned in the brief is federal legislation. None of the legislation in question grants authority to states to engage in race-conscious legislation. In Fisher the underlying issue is whether a state university may engage in race-conscious admissions. The authors not only don't defend, but don't even raise, the claim that the Reconstruction Congress thought that the same standards of race-neutrality should apply to the federal as to state and local governments.
And indeed, we know that Congress didn't think that, because it passed a Fourteenth Amendment that applied only to the states, and did not deign to apply any sort of new equal protection standard to the federal government, which in turn was not covered by any explicit equal protection guarantee of the sort contained in the Fourteenth Amendment. So I think the brief makes a provocative case that perhaps the federal government should be subject to more lenient standards of race neutrality than the states, an argument that the Supreme Court itself has adopted at times, but abandoned in the Adarand case. And while it's true that the Court now holds that all levels of government are subject to the same equal protection standard, the black letter law is that the federal government is subject to the Fourteenth Amendment's standards, and not the states to whatever standard the federal government should theoretically be held too.
Second, it strikes me that if I were to find the brief persuasive on the Fourteenth Amendment issue, it would only persuade me that all levels of government may at times engage in race-conscious legislation on behalf of African Americans. But in a state like Texas, with a much larger Hispanic population than black population, the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action preferences are Hispanics. The authors provide no evidence that the Framers would have allowed race-conscious preferences for groups other than blacks (and indeed, I believe that Mexican-Americans, the primary Hispanic group in Texas, were (a) in any event considered "white" under federal law and that (b) they were nevertheless subject to federal discrimination, not federal favoritism, at the time the Fourteenth Amendment was being enacted).
More generally, most "minorities" in the United States are not African Americans, with Hispanics outnumbering blacks, plus an additional six percent Asian Americans (who don't usually benefit from admissions preferences–quite the opposite–but who are eligible for many other affirmative action programs), plus another several million Native Americans. Even among African Americans, a significant percentage of the beneficiaries of affirmative action programs, especially on university campuses, are blacks who were never subject to American slavery because they or their ancestors immigrated from Africa or the Caribbean long after the Civil War.
So the CAC brief may provide originalist evidence that the U.S. government should be given more leeway in regard to race-conscious policies than the states get, and, more generously, may provide originalist evidence that even the states may engage in race-conscious programs that benefit the descendants of American slaves. But I'm not persuaded that it's at all helpful in showing that states may willy-nilly benefit any ethnic group it chooses at the expense of any other ethnic group, as, for example, University of Texas does in preferring Hispanic applicants (who are deemed "underrepresented") and disfavoring Asian-Americans (who are deemed "overrepresented").
UPDATE: It's also worth noting that many Hispanics are solely or primarily of European heritage, and about 50% identify themselves as 'white' on census bureau forms. UT's approach, in common with how preferences work in general, is that a state university can and should favor white descendants of Spanish conquistadors or Italian immigrants to Argentina or Jewish Mexicans of Eastern European descent, solely because the former have Spanish-speaking ancestors. (Indeed, the "diversity" rationale for affirmative action seems to demand such a policy. In Grutter, the district court found that Michigan Law School gave preferences only Mexican American and mainland Puerto Ricans, but Michigan vigorously denied this, assumedly because it conflicted with the diversity rationale and suggested an illicit social justice rationale for its policies. Grutter's attorneys didn't pursue this point.) So for the brief to be persuasive in defending UT's policies, it seems to me it would need to persuade readers that the fact that the the Reconstruction Congress allowed for race-conscious federal legislation benefiting slaves and descendants of slaves somehow means that the same Congress would have endorsed state preferences based on linguistic heritage, regardless of race and regardless of whether the individuals received the preference or their ancestors had even been subject to de jure discrimination in the United States. That seem like quite a stretch.
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The authors provide no evidence that the Framers would have allowed race-conscious preferences for groups other than blacks
Wait, what? That's how we're doing originalism now? With Qualified Immunity-level nitpicking? ("The police officers did not have sufficient notice that torturing someone whose name starts with a B is unconstitutional, because no federal court ever so held.")
They didn’t mention blacks in the 14A but they totally intended it.
I was also impressed by the utter rejection of reverse incorporation without mentioning Bolling. There is some originalism scholarship in the issue, believe it or not!!
“They didn’t mention blacks in the 14A but they totally intended it.” That actually goes the opposite way that you are thinking. Text that specifically prohibited discrimination against black people might be thought to also allow for discrimination favoring. By contrast, guaranteeing all "Persons" equal protection of the law suggests that equal protection is an indvidual right for which one's race is irrelevant.
Hey - as always thanks for the response.
If they did allow for racial classifications favoring blacks, but didn’t call it out as an exception in any text, that seems to suggest that such policies were generally accepted, not specifically for blacks.
(1) They allowed it for Congress, not for states; (2) I'm pretty sure they never actually said "Negroes" or whatever the vogue term was then but "freedmen" and "refugees"; and (3) even if 2 isn't correct, to allow for a racial preference for a group that was 90% unslaved until, like, yesterday would suggest that not ALL racial preferences are banned, but it doesn't mean that ALL racial and ethnic preferences, for any group under any circumstances, is allowed.
I’m not sure you established that Congress is held to a different standard than the states. From what I can tell that is an area of current academic debate.
Not saying negroes doesn’t mean they didn’t mean negroes. But I have not heard anything that indicates that they were the inky race that could get dedicated programs.
You have established some potential ways to distinguish federal policies about blacks during reconstruction from racially specific policies today, but not that such distinctions were intended.
It's "nitpicking" to question whether if the Reconstruction Congress was okay with preferences for black people, the vast majority of whom had just been enslaved, that this means that it would have been okay with preferences for any other ethnic or racial group? That Congresss could have decided to, say, prefer Americans from English but not German background? That's a really strange understanding of "nitpicking."
It's certainly a unique theory of constitutional interpretation that allows discrimination for/against some groups but not others depending on what the relevant legislators thought was "okay" without being able to point to anything in the text that might justify such a distinction.
The whole argument that I'm addressing is based on historical background, not the text, so that's not much of a criticism.
If you actually believe that, it just points to how ridiculous originalism has become.
Originalism used to at least start with the text. You could use historical evidence as an interpretive guide, but the text still mattered.
In the new D.B. originalism fantasy, step one is to ignore the text entirely. Just look to the sort of laws that were getting passed at the time, and those are the exact laws the Constitution intended, no more and no less.
Why even have a written Constitution, one may ask?
Might be time to revisit the public aspects of the CRA. Not the govt can't discriminate or pass laws forcing people to parts..but parts that force private individuals in selling and hiring/promotion. That always seemed a bit weird if you want a country based on individual freedom to choose who you interact with.
“I have neither the time nor inclination to check the brief's citations.”
You know that Colonel Jessup is the bad guy, right?
"Colonel Jessup is the bad guy"
No, it was the navy doctor who missed Santiago's heart defect.
Colonel Jessup was the hero, struggling to defend America. Cruise lost, his clients still got dishonorable discharges. He ought to have taken the plea bargain.
“Colonel Jessup was the hero, struggling to defend America”
The sad part is that you actually believe that a man who abused people he was responsible for, was a liar, and had disdain for the law is a hero. Sad commentary on your character.
He doesn’t, he just likes to freak out the squares.
Which….is not less sad.
No. I honestly think he does believe it.
Totally serious. Nothing wrong with using a shock tactic [Code Red] to motivate bad soldiers. If the doctor had done his job, Santiago would not have died, just been inconvenienced a bit.
Totally acceptable to violently abuse your employees. Hope you don’t have this attitude with your staff. And what about the lying? And forcing other people to lie? And the disrespect for law and the legal process?
I'm pretty sure that until quite recently, yes, it was totally acceptable to violently abuse military recruits. To a calibrated extent during training, anyway.
Training and abuse are not the same. A Code Red was an unprovoked violent attack, not a training exercise.
Then why did the defendants get a dishonorable discharge for carrying it out?
Illegal is not always wrong.
You forget the part where he lied about what he had done and threw his marines under the bus. If he had honorably admitted from the outset that he had ordered the Code Red, he could conceivably have been the good guy, I guess.
"abused people he was responsible for, was a liar, and had disdain for the law is a hero"
Describes Patton, Halsey and King, among others. Good soldiers are not social workers.
Good soldiers don’t need to lie, abuse their men, or have disdain for the law either.
They choose to. In any event the only thing we know about Jessup is that he commanded Gitmo (an extremely safe naval base) and had bad character traits. Unlike real historical figures there is no evidence of real life leadership or accomplishment. Yet you choose to admire him nonetheless.
Do you abuse your staff? Lie to others and force them to go along with your lies? Would you behave that way in court? To opposing counsel?
"no evidence of real life leadership or accomplishment"
The lt. col. mentioned that Jessup was going to soon get some high level staff appointment, so there was evidence of "accomplishment". Plus he was a full colonel, only 2 percent of Marine officers make that rank, so also evidence.
The military has a shitty culture. That must mean shiftiness is good!
No, I don’t think you are serious with this shallow ‘the villain is really the heroI’ nonsense.
Which reminds me : I hear the book "Alpha: Eddie Gallagher and the War for the Soul of the Navy SEALs" is pretty good. It was fascinating at the time to see the Right take a total disgrace as soldier / human being and do their huckster routine to remake him into a "hero".
And this was real life too, not a movie.....
The Code Red was morally repugnant. But as long as we're being legally formalistic, it was also a blatant violation of orders from Jessup's commanding officer.
Common sense and legal history are against that view.
It counsels the further abuse of all-black institutions as Clarence Thomas pointed out.
Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas defended all-black schools during a discussion at Duquesne University Law School in Pittsburgh, saying one cannot assume something is “inferior” because it is “predominantly one group or another.”
What is the very very first place you would go after under that view? It would HBCU schools.
“My high school was not inferior. My neighborhood was not inferior. My church was not inferior. My family was not inferior. I have never believed it, and I never will”
and Frederick Douglass
“Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them.”
To me, this is yet another example of the damage and multiple rabbit trails wrought by originalism.
Whatever the authors of the 14th Amendment may have thought about it, it's pretty much a sure-shot certainty that most Americans think something entirely different about it 150 years later. We have different views about race, and what government should do to resolve problems that stem from it. If the authors of the 14th Amendment came back from the dead, you would be hard pressed to find a group of people with values more different from our own. So why are we even having this discussion? The language in the text itself allows a modern conclusion.
That conclusion being what, exactly?
That the goal of the Fourteenth Amendment is to fix racism and its effects.
The "language in the text itself" says nothing at all about racism.
This view seems to imply judicial modesty. If we don't care what the people who wrote it thought what it means, then who cares what a lot of lawyers who had no had in writing it think it means? Seems like the people can just decide how to handle issues through their elected officials and the only real role of the judiciary is to interpret statutes and step in when the text of the Constitution actually is clear (e.g., how long is the term of a Senator).
That might give Team Blue a win or at least regional wins with regards to affirmative action, but they just got done screaming bloody murder that we're no longer reading a right to abortion into the Constitution. I don't think they'd like this method of jurisprudence overall.
Krychek_2 — You offer a useful comment.
Whatever the authors of the 14th Amendment may have thought about it, it’s pretty much a sure-shot certainty that most Americans think something entirely different about it 150 years later.
True that.
If the authors of the 14th Amendment came back from the dead, you would be hard pressed to find a group of people with values more different from our own.
Nah. They were plenty different. But with almost mathematical certainty, you can count on folks who lived successively earlier in the past to have views more different from our own. The original founding era featured ideas more different from our ideas than did the Civil War era. The Puritan era was more different still. And so on.
The reason which explains that rule is simple to state, but seldom reckoned with by would-be originalists. Ask yourself, what creates such differences? Inherited cultural experiences, which accumulated during the interval between then (whenever) and now provide the explanation. An entire past is handed to every era, but the past for each particular era is unique.
For instance, a notably influential factor in modern thinking remains the inherited experiences created during the Civil War era and its aftermath. In the original founding era, all that lay in the unknowable future, and was thus un-influential to the original founders. In the Puritan era, both the creation of the United States, and the Civil War, were yet to happen, and utterly un-influential. And so on, the farther back you go.
That dynamic—if such a term can be applied to habits of cognition—is crucially important for historical insight, and thus for originalism. But in the case of originalism, it is a dynamic which is almost invariably overlooked, with results which invalidate almost every would-be historical pronouncement originalists deliver.
Academic historians stay mindful of that problem of intervening cultural change, and struggle with it continuously. Basically, to achieve accurate historical insight, many techniques can be applied. One of the most important among them is a disciplined process, to forget and discount to zero everything which happened between then and now. To enable useful study of any chosen time and place in the past thus requires particularized study of ideas to forget, and of future (relative to then) occurrences to discount to zero. The methods used to accomplish that are laborious. They involve collaborative study among colleagues during years of training for practice of historical activity.
Needless to say, lawyers and judges are busy people. Almost to a person, they omit that study of necessary historical method as too burdensome (and too constraining). The results are exactly what you would expect—interpretations of a distant past warped, distorted, and inflected by habits of thought inherited by the would-be originalists from their own more-recent past, or from present experience.
Especially, the would-be originalists do their work with an eye to consideration of some present controversy which was, almost without exception, never contemplated by anyone during the era called upon. From that, would-be originalists purport to deliver authoritative evidence to resolve today’s controversy.
Thus, just as you suggest, a notion to analyze historically an “originalist” basis for modern-day racial policy preferences is in for tough going, unless literally years of expert, disciplined, specialized forgetting precede the study. Of course, nobody in the immediate post-Civil War era could have been thinking in terms of today’s fraught racial policy debates, despite a great deal of experience with quite different fraught racial policy debates delivered by their own particular history.
Our present issues are thus rendered susceptible to become entangled with their quite-different past issues, and accordingly misread. That is what would-be legal originalists who are not historians, and thus not trained to omit from analysis what their objects of study could not know, tend to do every time.
I’m not even sure I’m a fan of originalism as the proponents of different originalist school define it.
The only thing which makes originalists look good is that the alternative presented is a living-constitutionalist approach by which, oh yeah, the law evolves to mean different things at different times. Which is true, but the way to do the evolving is to change the law, which in the case of the Constitution means amendments, not creative interpretation.
So *compared to that,* originalism looks good, in the sense that kind of bad looks good next to very bad.
As a stopgap against the living constitution people, I wouldn’t throw away originalism until some better, third, alternative is found (classical legal tradition?)
In 1911, Booker T. Washington wrote: There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs-partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs
Assuming that to be true, that doesn't mean the grievances aren't real, or at least some of them. Race hustlers only exist because racism exists; if there were no racism there could be no race hustlers.
Right, and the point is that the race hustlers know that, and are determined to make sure racism, pr at least the perception of it, continues to exist.
This sounds suspiciously like the claim that cancer researchers have been sitting on a cure for cancer for 50 years because they know they'd be out of a job if they publicized it.
Assuming it to be true, my point remains that actually fixing racism would significantly undercut the ability of the race hustlers to find an audience. And the fact that some are more concerned about race hustlers than they are about doing something about racism is telling. Priorities, you know.
From a public policy perspective, we fixed racism decades ago, except in very limited circumstances such as affirmative action. It's a big country, I'm sure if you looked you could find enough racists to fill a tour bus or possibly a ball room, but that's about it.
On a policy level, we’re trying to wipe out the last vestiges and the resistance is coming from the left. That there’s hustlers claiming this isn’t the case changes nothing, any more than then the ongoing existence of astrologers means astrology is real.
In terms of public policy, yes, we give lip service to racism being bad. As far as what happens in the lives and experiences of minorities, not so much.
Given the opportunity, would you be willing to be Black for a year? If not, you've acknowledged that you understand that racism is still practiced.
Legally speaking, skin color doesn't always matter, but being black never hurts and being white never helps. The reason we're having this conversation, as one example among many, is that universities give no questions asked massive preferences to those who can check the "Black" box. The same is true of federal hiring, contracting, and even private companies are getting in on this.
Assuming the petty logistics were handled (i.e., I would have no trouble proving I was the same person, I wouldn't be cancelled for changing races, etc.), then there'd be no reason for any white person to say no to this proposition.
I actually live in a black majority neighborhood, in a city that's 24% black, and work for an equal opportunity employer with a fair number of black co-workers. I doubt it would change my life much, aside from reducing my chance of getting a bad sunburn.
You could find a lot more racists than that, just not white racists against blacks for being black. Racism is encouraged in others and the definition has been profoundly expanded and manipulated to make sure the targets of the DIE propaganda never gets out from under the accusation.
I would be 100% unshocked if Brett believed that.
More like the claim that homeopathic doctors know that they're full of shit.
Let's stick to the topic at hand, not make everything about your projection.
Race hustlers only exist because racism exists; if there were no racism there could be no race hustlers.
What an unsurprisingly simple-minded (at a bumper sticker level, really) description of the issue. Nobody claims that racism doesn't exist, at some level and to some extent. The issue or race-hustling is with exaggerating both, inventing individual incidents of racism that actually aren't, etc.
Just out of curiosity, who taught you a five-syllable word?
And where did I say that anyone was claiming that racism doesn't exist?
Just out of curiosity, who taught you a five-syllable word?
The same person who taught me that a fetus is incapable of committing a trespass offense.
And where did I say that anyone was claiming that racism doesn’t exist?
When you felt the need to explain that it does exist, as if someone didn't know that. Or were you just trying to claim that the existence of some level of racism justifies race hustling?
I'm not aware that anyone, including me, has argued that a fetus is capable of committing a trespass offense, but let's keep the conversation on point to this thread. (Hint: Committing a trespass offense is not required to be a trespasser. There are unintentional trespasses in which no offense was intended, but where there is still a trespass. If I leave someone who is drunk and passed out on my neighbor's porch, that's a trespass, even though he's innocent of having committed it, and my neighbor is within his right to have him ejected.) But since the only person who seems to care about that issue at this point is you, perhaps we could all go on to other things.
I forget which number we're up to in terms of examples of you not being able to read, but the line that you've quoted -- Race hustlers only exist because racism exists; if there were no racism there could be no race hustlers -- is a foundational statement, not an argument. In other words, it lays down the basis for the argument, without being the argument itself.
The actual argument is that eradicating racism would go a long way toward eradicating race hustlers. Do you disagree with that argument?
I’m not aware that anyone, including me, has argued that a fetus is capable of committing a trespass offense
Holy crap...so now you're so desperate that you're claiming amnesia? Just when I thought you couldn't be any more pathetic.
Hint: Committing a trespass offense is not required to be a trespasser. There are unintentional trespasses in which no offense was intended, but where there is still a trespass. If I leave someone who is drunk and passed out on my neighbor’s porch, that’s a trespass, even though he’s innocent of having committed it, and my neighbor is within his right to have him ejected.
And you claim to have made it through law school?
I forget which number we’re up to in terms of examples of you not being able to read
Zero. The number is much higher though for examples of you making ignorant and dishonest claims.
The actual argument is that eradicating racism would go a long way toward eradicating race hustlers. Do you disagree with that argument?
I would say that as a response to...
"Right, and the point is that the race hustlers know that, and are determined to make sure racism, pr at least the perception of it, continues to exist."
...it is a pretty braindead argument.
No, I'm now pointing out that what you quote me as having said only rarely is what I actually said. So, more basic question: Why should I care about your opinion?
No, I’m now pointing out that what you quote me as having said only rarely is what I actually said.
Jesus, does is there no end to the depth of your bullshit? I've never once misquoted you. Not once. You quite explicitly...and repeatedly...claimed that a fetus could be held legally liable for trespass against the person if granted legal personhood. It was just as repeatedly pointed out to you why that was a stupid claim, and while you doubled down on it for a bit, you then switched to claiming that you just never said it...because you're a coward and a pathological liar.
And your argument here is just as stupid.
re: "if there were no racism there could be no race hustlers"
False. It may be true that "if there had never been any racism, there could be no race hustlers" but it is demonstrably true that race hustlers can exist even after the original racism has been eliminated.
There's a time lag. Suppose I had a magic wand and made all racism disappear. There would still be hustlers for a time, but over time their voices would be diminished and fewer and fewer people would pay any attention to them, and at some point they'd be forced to find other lines of work. But not right away.
There’s a time lag. Suppose I had a magic wand and made all racism disappear. There would still be hustlers for a time, but over time their voices would be diminished and fewer and fewer people would pay any attention to them, and at some point they’d be forced to find other lines of work. But not right away.
Reality would tend to disagree. Racism against minorities in the U.S. is far less prevalent and has far less impact than it did in the past, and yet race hustling as a grievance industry has grown and continues to grow...to flourish even. What you seem to have trouble wrapping what passes for your mind around is that race-hustling is unnecessary in the presence of significant racism, and is only needed in its absence.
How would you know what reality thinks? Have you ever actually been in the same zip code s reality?
It's less overtly prevalent, but it's still there. Last year a black friend and I went Christmas shopping together, and even as a white person I could sense that store security was paying far more attention to him than it was to me. And one thing we've learned from our experience with Trump is that there were still plenty of racists out there; they surfaced when someone came along and made them look respectable again.
Ah, the old "my Spidey senses were tingling" anecdote as argument.
You've never been one to be taken seriously, and you seem to intent on making absolutely certain that you never will be.
Sorry, no, you cannot simply assume that "their voices [will] be diminished" over time. On the contrary, racism continues to decline in the US by every objective measure yet the volume of the hustlers continues to increase. People will not stop paying attention to them until the hustle stops working.
The classic text, The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements by Eric Hoffer, is not strictly about racism but describes the societal reactions quite accurately. Within critical (but quite broad) ranges, hustlers and exploiters arise in inverse proportion to the actual conditions.
racism continues to decline in the US by every objective measure
You don't understand. He has a black friend, and they went Christmas shopping together once....
As minorities have more of a voice, us white folks do have to hear them more. Some of them are taking advantage, but hardly all.
Sorry if this makes you decide racism isn’t worth dealing with anymore. Most disagree.
That's not what I said and you know it.
It is, if you conflate all anti racist activism with race hustling, which it looks a lot like you are.
I have never conflated all activism with race-hustling. You, on the other hand, are apparently trying to say that there no race hustlers – which is absurd.
I don't think he denies that race hustling is a thing.
I think he just insists that it is justified.
Ah yes, know it when you see it.
Always a great standard.
If I was arguing that there were none, I wouldn’t have used conflate.
Michael, either your definition of race hustler is pretty idiosyncratic or you are the worst at building plausible strawmen.
If you don't know it when you see it, then you shouldn't be allowed out without a keeper. Fraud, logical fallacies and flagrant appeals to emotionalism are pretty easy to recognize - unless you have an incentive keep blinders on yourself.
Plenty of legitimate lobbyists deploy both kinds of fallacies in their rhetoric.
As with porn, this is an exercise in line drawing, and you are only fooling yourself if you think it's an easy or objective line to draw.
I wouldn't even concede the first point. There are plenty of examples of people purporting to solve problems that never existed.
If this "originalist" argument is taken seriously, then it's an exception that swallows the rule, because any policy can be enacted and then Congress just has to say they're being "racially conscious" and therefore it's unconstitutional.
Starting next year, whites and asians are discriminated in favor of, and blacks/hispanics discriminated against in college admissions. It's a new "race conscious" policy to address the past few decades of racism that was whimsically called "affirmative action." And the same would go for any racist policy-- "The federal government is only hiring Irish this year, because they were discriminated against in the past!" Hands are tied, the Reconstruction Congress was "racially conscious" too. If the Fourteenth Amendment doesn't prevent institutional racism in university admission, then it doesn't do anything at least with regards to race.
While on its face Amendment XIV is race neutral, the statutes, 42 U.S. Code § 1981 and 42 U.S. Code § 1982, which are enabled by Amendment XIV and which were written by the same legislators, are not race neutral. We can infer that race neutrality was not part of the original intent of the legislators. The federal government is exempted from neither statute. While natives of former Mexican territory were not necessarily put in the same category to which freedmen were assigned, it is an historical stretch to assert Mexican natives were considered “white”. Such natives were put effectively into a category between freedman and Amerinds. Some of the Mexican natives were Amerinds.
42 U.S. Code § 1981: "All persons within the jurisdiction of the United States shall have the same right in every State and Territory to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, give evidence, and to the full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of persons and property as is enjoyed by white citizens, and shall be subject to like punishment, pains, penalties, taxes, licenses, and exactions of every kind, and to no other."
42 U.S. Code § 1982: "All citizens of the United States shall have the same right, in every State and Territory, as is enjoyed by white citizens thereof to inherit, purchase, lease, sell, hold, and convey real and personal property."
I think it's a stretch to say that a pair of laws that literally said that all citizens would have the same rights as whites failed to be race neutral in any meaningful sense.
Our ticket, Our Motto: This is a White Man's Country; Let White Men Rule." Campaign badge supporting Horatio Seymour and Francis Blair, Democratic candidates for President and Vice-President of the Unites States, 1868.
The two statutes could have been written as I rewrote them below. There is no reason to include "white" except
1. to heighten awareness of race in a non-race neutral fashion and
2. specifically to reject the white racial supremacism of the Democratic Party.
42 U.S. Code § 1981: “All persons within the jurisdiction of the United States shall have the same right in every State and Territory to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, give evidence, and to the full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of persons and property and shall be subject to like punishment, pains, penalties, taxes, licenses, and exactions of every kind, and to no other.”
42 U.S. Code § 1982: “All citizens of the United States shall have the same right, in every State and Territory to inherit, purchase, lease, sell, hold, and convey real and personal property.”
There's no difference between saying "all races have the same rights" and "all races have the same rights as whites." If they had wanted to create a melanin nobility, then they could have. They didn't. They're your two statutes and on they're face they're racially neutral as neutral can be. That there's other ways to rewrite them to mean the exact same thing changes nothing. And it's one hell of a twist of fate, by the way, that the statutes were needed to reject racial supremacy and are now being used by Democrats to justify a completely different form of racial supremacy. What is it with Democrats and racism?
The only difference is that it establishes that you're leveling up, not leveling down.
SomeGuy 2 makes an argument that could only cause a judge to roll his eyes.
Does SomeGuy 2 really believe there is no difference among:
1. "all races have the same rights”,
2. “all races have the same rights as whites”,
3. “all races have the same rights as blacks”?
The drafters of §§ 1981 and 1982 identified the dominant race and were asserting that all races should have the same rights that the dominant race has.
Parties evolve. The Republican Party today is where the Democratic Party was in 1868. Blacks don't have racial supremacy in the USA. American Blacks have a legitimate complaint that they suffered an historical tort, whose effects continue to this day. If the US government takes some relatively measures to make American Blacks whole, what's the problem?
The Republican Party today is where the Democratic Party was in 1868.
Yes, I hear they're also literally Nazis!!!
"Does SomeGuy 2 really believe there is no difference among:
1. “all races have the same rights”,
2. “all races have the same rights as whites”,
3. “all races have the same rights as blacks”?"
It's a basic principle of math and logic known for thousands of years: Two things that are equal to the same thing are equal to each other.
So, yes, they do connote the same thing. The only implication is, as I said above, to clarify that it was leveling up, not down, that was mandated.
Oh, and it didn't say "all races". All "persons", and all "citizens".
Formal propositional calculus is useful for some aspects of legal logic and adjudication, but in judging the legal equivalence of the following two propositions 2. “all races have the same rights as whites” 3. “all races have the same rights as blacks” we have to consider semantics. If white and black were equivalent, my parents would not have been arrested in Alabama because they were married. My case is anomalous because my father is a Ukrainian Jew while my mother is a N. African Jewish Berber. We were all new to the USA and suddenly were subjected to an impromptu education in US white racism. Because white and black are not equivalent in the US, we cannot consider the two propositions to be logically equivalent. I have to reiterate. The drafters of §§ 1981 and 1982 identified the dominant race and were asserting that all citizens should have the same rights that white citizens have. Everyone understood the post-reconstruction reality. Everyone realized that “separate but equal” was a crock. Just read the dissent in Plessy v. Ferguson. A judge should apply a reflection test when appropriate. South Carolina had a black majority from 1708 through 1920. Suppose after the Civil War, blacks took over the South Carolina government and applied to whites the conditions under which blacks lived in other white racist state. The federal army would have intervened, and the black leadership would have been quickly hanged. I hypothesize that the federal judiciary would have a lot less tolerance gerrymandering the gerrymandering benefited blacks instead of white racists.
If you want to
BTW, for anyone that believes in the historical equivalence of black and white in US law, here is Constitutional prohibition, which occasioned my parents' arrest.
The Constitution of Alabama, passed in 1901, officially prohibited interracial marriage in the state. Article IV, Section 102 states, "The legislature shall never pass any law to authorize or legalize any marriage between any white person and a negro, or descendant of a negro".
(1) The only place the US government really classified people by race was on the census, and on the census Mexicans were white; and (2) The treaty of Guadalupe guaranteed Mexicans resident in the US all rights of citizenship, rights guaranteed neither to blacks (see Scott v. Sandford) nor to American Indians. "The Mexicans who, in the territories aforesaid, shall not preserve the character of citizens of the Mexican Republic, conformably with what is stipulated in the preceding article, shall be incorporated into the Union of the United States. and be admitted at the proper time (to be judged of by the Congress of the United States) to the enjoyment of all the rights of citizens of the United States, according to the principles of the Constitution; and in the meantime, shall be maintained and protected in the free enjoyment of their liberty and property, and secured in the free exercise of their religion without restriction."
Of course, at the state and local level, Mexican Americans often faced discrimination and sometimes segregation.
Yeah, right, David!
"The only place the US government really classified people by race was on the census..."
David should study US federal and state law as it was applied to the Amerind population.
Yeah, and after reading your cites, maybe he could write a book on the topic of racial classification and the US government...
https://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/11-345-respondent-amicus-conlawscholars.pdf
Here's the brief btw. Didn't see a link.
The real problem with all 14th (and 15th) Amendment jurisprudence is that the Civil Rights Cases and Cruikshank were wrongly decided and that Congress is supposed to be empowered to enforce both amendments by legislation, which includes ameliorative race conscious legislation that binds private actors. Equal protection arguably sets a default color-blindedness for states (hence why Plessy is wrong and Brown is correct), but gives Congress a wider latitude in legislating. If the Court was truly committed to the Reconstruction vision of state-federal relations, it would abandon its pretense of having the ability to override Congress's determination of what "appropriate legislation" means.
Arguing about affirmative action by state institutions is kind of missing the point. The real solution to all of this is to have Congress amend Title VI to permit race conscious admissions at all educational facilities, and if the Court strikes that down based on some contrived sense of what it considers "appropriate" ignore them or, accept it and expand the Court until they get judges who actually understand the Reconstruction Amendments.
"Congress is supposed to be empowered to enforce both amendments by legislation, which includes ameliorative race conscious legislation that binds private actors."
It says appropriate legislation, and the 14th amendment expressly says, "No state shall... nor shall any state"
Private actors, trivially, are not states. Thus laws reaching them can not be appropriate legislation, because they would not be enforcing "the provisions of this article".
Bizarrely, you're insisting that the real way to implement equal protection is to violate it.
"Private actors, trivially, are not states. Thus laws reaching them can not be appropriate legislation."
Why? Just because you say so? I don't think that's how it works. And it is a testament to your extreme arrogance and that of the Courts that you think you get to decide what appropriate is, and not the elected representatives in Congress.
The Congress that passed the original Civil Rights Act understood far better than you do and far better than the current Court or past Courts that civil rights is also about the right to participate in society writ large and to undo the effects of slavery.
Indeed, this argument that you (and the Court) know what is appropriate in this regard and Congress does not is just the re-packaged arguments of the planter class long ago. You're siding with the enslavers over the elected representatives. For someone who pretends not to be racist, you sure are making a lot of arguments that racists love to make.
No, not because I say so, because the freaking 14th amendment says so.
No. It's because you say so. You're deciding what is appropriate based on a planter-based interpretation of what it means to have equal protection of the laws. Your interpretation is the same one that allowed the planter class to defy Reconstruction and impose redeemer governments.
I mean it's pretty convenient that your definition of "equal protection" and "appropriate legislation" permit the planter class to construct a racial caste system enforced through violence and economic subjugation.
The text makes no such limitation on appropriate, Brett. And original action (e.g. anti lynching laws) seems to indicate that was not a contemplated limitation.
The text literally say, "No state shall"... "nor shall any state".
Do I look like a state?
I realize you really want a different 14th amendment than the one that got into the Constitution. But the words are right there, and they're transparently clear. There simply isn't any ambiguity here for you to appeal to!
This is why I can't stand living constitutionalists: If you don't like some language in the Constitution, it becomes literally impossible for you to accept its meaning, no matter how clear it might be.
What if the state lets the KKK run rampant and refuses to do anything to prevent exploitation of blacks by private actors? Is that providing the equal protection of the laws? Is it really equal protection of the laws to have sun down towns and permit black to be excluded from educational opportunities or public goods? Because that's what SCOTUS and you say and that's what Congress was trying to prevent. Again, you are reading a limitation into the Fourteenth Amendment using the logic of the Planter-Class and are arrogantly claiming there can be no other interpretation.
"This is why I can’t stand living constitutionalists: If you don’t like some language in the Constitution, it becomes literally impossible for you to accept its meaning, no matter how clear it might be."
This is hilarious projection coming from you because you practically never accept things that you disagree with, particularly in the law. You are utterly convinced of your correctness in a wide variety of areas where you lack even the most rudimentary knowledge. Your ignorance of law and history is well-documented and you are often schooled in both. Yet you rarely acknowledge your limitations.
You are the living constitutionalist you complain of!
"What if the state lets the KKK run rampant and refuses to do anything to prevent exploitation of blacks by private actors? Is that providing the equal protection of the laws?"
No, it isn't. It just precisely isn't. That's the sort of thing that the equal protection clause was aimed at.
Thanks for proving my point.
It does…right after it talks about citizens. Did you read the law review article I posted?
Also, did you read anything about the programs passed in the framing generation? Does that not say something about what the text means? I’m no originalist, but you seem to be jumping from blind textualism to intent and back as is convenient for you.
Maybe LTG and Sarcastro are sovereign citizens, and think every person is a state. It'd be just as good an argument as they ones they're making.
Sovereign citizens don’t have the foremost historian of Reconstruction on their side. I do.
Who are you calling "The Foremost Historian of Reconstruction", and who did he beat to win the title?
And what are you citing for this person being "on your side"?
Or maybe she goes to a different school, and I wouldn't know her?
There is ambiguity in the text as to whether binding individuals is a legit way to implement the 14A.
Contemporary practice shows that binding individuals was fine.
But sure, anyone who believes there is an originalist case for the civil rights acts is a sovereign citizen. Sure, go with that.
Are you familiar with sarcasm, O Sarcastro?
Whoever wrote for that account years ago was, but this new person doesn't seem to recognize or use it anymore.
Three generations later, whatever laudable intent the 1965 act may have carried is clearly not borne out by the results in society. One hundred fifty-seven years since the last American slave was emancipated (excepting the slaves of foreign residents practicing a certain medieval “religion”) the descendants of those emancipated slaves and other similarly pigmented immigrants are less grounded in a productive social order than they were in 1965. Black families are even less unified than other families, black achievement lags as much or more overall compared to the achievement of other groups, blacks are more subject to violent crime than in 1965, and the forces that would help black children improve and achieve are less present in predominantly black neighborhoods than in 1965.
By any objective measure the act was a colossal failure, worthy of repeal.
Blacks are worse off now than in 1965? Less violent crime against then than now????
You got a source other than your ass for this take?
Yogis_dad — Three generations ago black professionals capable to refute convincingly the bogus arguments you offer were almost invariably products of unusually fortunate circumstances—so privileged that they constituted a tiny minority among all blacks. Now such accomplished individuals come from all walks of life. Blacks capable to refute you are now a dime a dozen. Turn on your television and you will likely see a black person smarter and better educated than you are. Change the channel as often as you like, and you will find more. Their proportions and influence as a fraction of the black community continue to increase.
Affirmative action has been wretchedly administered. Widespread discontent among low status white males especially bears witness to that. Smugness among white male elites who have borne comparatively little burden underlines it.
Nevertheless, the revolution on behalf of blacks' well-being ongoing and partly achieved in American society shows the policies were justified. Against that experience, whatever contrary claims you make serve only as evidence for continuation of affirmative social policy on behalf of black opportunity. Perhaps you should give attention to means to render that continuation less irksome to you, whether those means would be public improvements or private ones.
Brett, don't you think Congress could pass a law encouraging states to adopt affirmative action policies in higher education, in part by asserting that such laws wouldn't violate the 14th amendment?
If America is systemically racist, then its race-conscious laws are contributing to that racism and must therefore be dismantled in the name of anti-racism.
Have I got that right?
Yes, in the same way that if you're in debt and earning money to pay it off but haven't finished yet, the correct solution is to quit your job.
Oh wait, no. That would be stupid.
You have qualified for the MFE degree: Master of False Equivalence. A debt is not a wrong being remedied by repayment. Reverse discrimination is "two wrongs make a right."
Nope, I'm just someone who knows if you're trying to fix a problem, you don't just quit because you haven't reached 100% success yet.
White, male, conservative blogs seem to want to cling to a "colorblind" view of the world.
Except when white males are being persecuted by the demons of modernity, of course.
In a "color blind" world, everyone would be equally persecuted by the "demons of modernity," or the spawn of Satan, as they are historically called. Opposing oppression of a group to which one belongs does not mean the one expressing opposition is not also opposed to oppression of others.
Is it too late to point out that these cases involve the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which is phrased specifically to ban racial discrimination in federally-supported colleges and universities, without exceptions allowing discrimination against whites and asians?
If we’re going full-on literalist, I mean Bostock-level literalist, with the Civil Rights Act, then how can discrimination against whites and asians be justified by considerations extrinsic to the text?
You've pre-written Justice Gorsuch's concurrence.
As far as the Constitution is concerned, “equal protection of the laws” is actually ready-made for living constitutionalism, since it really is vague. Lots of laws discriminate, including minimum-age laws for driving, drinking, and smoking.
There has to be a limiting principle somewhere, but if we’re going by original intent, the 1866 Act (contemporaneous with the 14th Amendment) said that native-born citizens shall have the same rights as white people. Since white people have the same rights as white people, anti-white discrimination wouldn’t be banned, would it?
It's simple enough: Equal protection of the law prohibits placing people outside the protection of the law; Crimes against all people must be treated equally.
This doesn't mean you can't treat offenders differently from non-offenders. But it does mean you must treat all offenders the same regardless of their identities, or that of their victims.
And, of course, if all native-born citizens must have the same rights as whites, anything you do to reduce the rights of whites reduces everybody's rights by the same measure, so, no discrimination.
What is a minority? When is a minority a class? When are members of a class subject to adverse discrimination? When does such adverse discrimination warrant government intervention?
Without exception, every human being in the United States of America is a member of a group that is in the minority, and there are most certainly statutes, regulations, and rules that adversely discriminate against members of that group.
The most powerful force to reverse such adverse discrimination is the free market. Are you left-handed? Firearms manufacturers offer shotguns that eject downward. Are you a member of the LDS Church? Your elders are free to travel and proselytize in America. Are you dark-skinned? You can become a world-class neurosurgeon without a racial set-aside. Are you sexually attracted to animals? You are able to fulfill your desires in private, which is pretty much the standard for fulfilling sexual desires in a civil society.
It would be best for the law to ignore the claims of "minorities" and to focus, instead, on public order, justice, and removal of violent criminals from public circulation.
Congrats on discovering intersectionality. No, the solution is not to stop worrying about systemic and direct discrimination.
So if this interpretation of the 14th is right, blacks are legally higher on the ladder than Indians, Chinamen, and I guess women. Is that correct?
Is it fake news that prior to the 1920s, whites and blacks in California could kill Indians and Chinamen, and it was not considered a crime?
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2xrui6
Sotomayor and Kagan are drop dead stupid but Ketanji is strong out of the gate. Progressive Originalism -- what a profoundly contradictory and stupid idea. English teachers, care to comment?
It would seem *just* to me if we allowed preferences for native Americans and descendants of slaves who are at an economic disadvantage because of things the government systematically did to them.
I think that few people would be horribly upset by special scholarships or assistance for kids on reservations, or slave communities.
I think the sympathy breaks down when it's perceived as a handout to people who don't need or deserve it. Everyone knows the token rich black kid, or the hood rat who is believed to be responsible for their own travails. (whether or not it's true)
I think W was absolutely brilliant with his top 10% program for Texas college admissions. It relied on geographic self segregation to implement a race neutral elevation of kids from poor, minority schools, and a cap on rich white students.
I think W was absolutely brilliant with his top 10% program for Texas college admissions. It relied on geographic self segregation to implement a race neutral elevation of kids from poor, minority schools, and a cap on rich white students.
I think that idea did have merit, but I wouldn't refer to the existence of neighborhoods that are still largely segregated by race as "self segregation." Past discrimination in housing, before it was made illegal and for years after where it just was less obvious, is why there are still so many places that have "white neighborhoods" and "black neighborhoods."
It also speaks to the whole problem here where socioeconomic upward mobility is not what most people think it is or what it should be. Grow up in a largely white, affluent suburb, and your opportunities to get the kind of education and support for obtaining a higher paying job are much greater than if one grows up in a low-income, largely minority neighborhood. I grew up in white suburban neighborhoods and went to fairly good public schools. My teaching career has been at a couple of public schools much like the ones I went to, but more often at ones with much more mixed demographics. (Though I've never taught at a school with 90%+ low-income/minority populations, my current school is about 70% in both of those categories.) I have seen the contrast and my experience does make the differences in opportunities seem fairly clear, to me.
Well, DC wasn't a state, after all.
I'd believe the 14th amendment wasn't intended to apply to the federal government; It does say "state", that's pretty clear text. And it originated with federal office holders, who leaps to constrain themselves? They knew their own intentions were good, it was those other guys who weren't to be trusted!
I'm not unhappy with having it applied to the federal government, from a policy standpoint. Though I think just as a general matter indulging in dodgy interpretation of the Constitution to arrive at a "good" result is an addictive drug with long term harmful consequences.
The Freedmen's bureau was not actually operating on the basis of racial preferences. But, rather, on the basis of being a refugee or a former slave.
The originalism case for segregated schools.
Probably legit, but that’s more a ding on the utility of originalism than it commands overturning Brown.
Just because all blacks were slaves, I don’t think that means you get to pretend a policy about blacks is not about blacks.
They knew the racial implications.
Actual Originalists see reverse incorporation as something they need to address/explain.
https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/faculty_scholarship/429/
But, of course, not all blacks were slaves. All blacks in the South were unfree, even if not slaves, mind you. But not all blacks lived in the South. And the Freedmen's bureau only operated in the South.
Again, it was not on the basis of race, but on the basis of being a refuge or former status as unfree. If you were a free black in the North the Freedmen's bureau wasn't going to do squat for you.
One stands up for the truth because it's the truth, not because the truth is useful. Or else you end up standing up for lies where you find those useful.
I don't support originalism because I always like what it has to say, I support it because, like it or not, that's what the Constitution means.
You support originalism (as practiced by non-historian judges with and law professors with an arrogance problem) because it supports your political priors. Originalist interpretation can change at any time depending on the research skills and whims of any particular judge. It has nothing to do with meaning and everything to do with politics and power.
Ah yes, the Constitution IS a suicide pact!
Dude, you are not in a crusade for the truth, you’ve just convinced yourself that everyone you disagree with is lying.
There is nothing more toxic to a debate than insisting that reasonable people can’t differ, and disagreeing with your philosophical take makes everyone else anti-truth.
Jurisprudence is philosophy. You are treating it like engineering.
Or else you end up standing up for lies where you find those useful.
You're telling that to the poster child for lying.
Or the bureaus operated there because that’s where the land was. You are reading in an intentionality based entirely on correlation, and that’s not how that works.
That's like saying refugee benefits weren't distributed on the basis of being a refugee, it's just that the refugees got them because they didn't bother opening an office where there hadn't been a disaster. It was the "Freedmen's" bureau, hardly a coincidence that the only blacks who got benefits were freedmen.
No, the Constitution is NOT a suicide pact. People who say "The Constitution isn't a suicide pact" really mean that it IS a suicide pact, and as such should be broken.
But I don't think the Constitution, honestly interpreted, is in any way a suicide pact, though it might be sub-optimal in many respects.
"Originalist interpretation can change at any time depending on the research skills and whims of any particular judge. It has nothing to do with meaning and everything to do with politics and power."
Right, right, right. And non-originalism? Same comment applies but x1,000.
No, that’s just you begging the question.
If a racially targeted program is allowed, you just aren’t bringing the info to say maybe it wasn’t about race but this other factor and race had nothing to do with it.
In fact, that’d be a pretty silly take seems to me. Reconstruction was about race, not former slaves.
Glad you think that, but above you argued that the key was truth, damn the consequences.
You need to moderate one of those two statements because they are in conflict.
"You need to moderate one of those two statements because they are in conflict."
Only if there is a provision that calls for suicide.
Not times a thousand, just exactly the same.
Sure. The following two propositions both lend themselves equally to judges acting purely according to their political whims and desire for power.
(1) The words in the Constitution have a fixed meaning that can't be changed except by amendment.
(2) The words in the Constitution (and maybe words in general) can have no fixed determinable meaning, and judges are therefore free to decide whatever they want.
Honestly, I don't know how you can expect to be taken seriously saying things like this. This is similar to medical institutions saying a man can be a woman.
The whole fun of originalism is deciding what the "fixed meaning" actually is. By strange coincidence, it always seems to line up with the outcome desired by that judge. This isn't all that surprising, since the framers deliberately used lots of ambiguous phrases. They were perfectly capable of being unambiguous when needed. Pretending the ambiguous phrases are actually unambiguous, and then backing up the argument with shoddy historical analysis, gives an originalist judge the exact same latitude to enact her preferences as any other judge.