The Volokh Conspiracy
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Florida All in for Assault on Academic Freedom
To defend the Stop WOKE Act, Florida asks court to eliminate any academic freedom exception to government employee speech doctrine
This past summer Florida adopted House Bill 7, better known as the Stop WOKE Act. The legislation blocks academic instruction and workplace training that "espouses, promotes, advances, inculcates, or compels" belief in a variety of race-related ideas. It is one of a number of so-called anti-"Critical Race Theory" bills that have been advanced by Republican policymakers in the states since 2020. Some have taken aim at workplace training. Others have focused on primary and secondary education. An emerging set of proposals are targeted at higher education. The Florida bill has elements of all three. The University of Florida produced providing guidance to its employees on how to comply with the bill, with a list of ideas that "instructors may not suggest or assert."
Several lawsuits have already been filed against the enforcement of Stop WOKE Act, and Judge Mark Walker has already issued a temporary injunction on the workplace training portions of the law. (Judge Walker had previously issued a sharp opinion in a case regarding the right of state university professors to serve as expert witnesses in lawsuits filed against the state. The state is currently appealing that case to the 11th Circuit.) The ACLU filed a separate lawsuit on the education components of the act, as has FIRE.
In response to anti-Communist measures aimed at state universities, the Warren Court emphasized that academic freedom was an important First Amendment value, but the scope and implications of that point are less than clear. In Garcetti v. Ceballos in 2006, the U.S. Supreme Court held that that when the speech of government employees is pursuant to their duties it is not protected by the First Amendment. Crucially, however, the Court held open the question of whether this was still true in the context of teaching and scholarship by university professors at state universities.
There is some argument that expression related to academic scholarship or classroom instruction implicates additional constitutional interests that are not fully accounted for by this Court's customary employee-speech jurisprudence. We need not, and for that reason do not, decide whether the analysis we conduct today would apply in the same manner to a case involving speech related to scholarship or teaching.
Lower courts have generally construed this as an academic freedom exception to Garcetti's government employee speech doctrine. As a consequence, scholarship and classroom teaching at state universities have continued to be afforded some degree of First Amendment protection. The academic freedom exception to Garcetti is probably critical to any First Amendment challenge to the anti-CRT bills.
I have a draft paper to be published by Wake Forest Law Review arguing that university-level classroom instruction should not be regarded as government speech for First Amendment purposes (classroom instruction in primary and secondary public schools is probably a different matter).
In its response to the ACLU lawsuit, Florida is taking a big swing at academic freedom at state universities. The state argues that Garcetti's reasoning is inconsistent with preserving an academic freedom exception to government employee speech doctrine, and it points to lower court decisions involving classroom instruction in primary and secondary public schools as indicating that the state can regulate the speech that the "employee was being paid to create."
The in-class instruction offered by state-employed educators is also pure government speech, not the speech of the educators themselves. When "public employees make statements pursuant to their official duties, the employees are not speaking as citizens for First Amendment purposes." Garcetti v. Ceballos, 547 U.S. 410, 421-22 (2006). And "[r]estricting speech that owes its existence to a public employee's professional responsibilities does not infringe any liberties the employee might have enjoyed as a private citizen." Therefore, "the employee of has no First Amendment cause of action." Accordingly, under the square reasoning of Garcetti, educators in public universities do not have a First Amendment right to control the curriculum.
Florida points in particular to a pre-Garcetti 11th Circuit ruling involving a professor at the University of Alabama. In that case, the professor made a habit of discussing his personal religious beliefs in his classes on exercise physiology. The circuit court held that the professor had no First Amendment right to defy his superiors when they told him to cut it out. The lower courts have a mixed record on the question of how much constitutional protection there might be for academic freedom of individual professors, as contrasted with academic freedom for universities as institutions, and Florida in this case urges the district court to hold that there is no "purported right to academic freedom."
Florida is right that First Amendment protection for individual professors in their scholarship and teaching at state universities is murky. Denying that such protection exists at all would be the easiest basis on which to uphold policies like the Stop WOKE Act, and Florida is willing to take that route. The stakes for the future of academic freedom in higher education could not be higher. If Florida wins on those grounds, the state could direct state university professors on what they say in their teaching and scholarship and sanction or fire professors for teaching or researching ideas that politicians do not like. Academic freedom in state universities would be a matter of grace. Of course, professors at private universities are in the same boat. Academic freedom protections in schools like Princeton University depend on contracts and professional norms, not constitutional protections. Academic freedom is under a growing threat at private universities as well. Unfortunately, if not constrained by constitutional limits, politicians seem increasingly inclined to significantly weaken the scope of academic freedom at state institutions. It is a war being waged on many fronts, and ironically the state of Florida is now joining the wokesters in urging that traditional academic freedom protections be tossed aside so as to advance currently fashionable political goals.
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Do academics believe in freedom for anyone besides academics? It didn’t seem like it during the pandemic. Should we sympathize with people who treat the rest of us so badly?
Also, Florida taxpayers have no obligation to fund institutions that promote racial hatred or other types of bigotry. Saying "academic freedom" doesn’t change that.
Professors like Whittington here are at the front lines arguing that hate speech is violence and should be banned, defending Facebook colluding with Facebook to supress "disinformation" in private messages, and demanding people use neo-pronouns.
Get bent.
Disaffected, science-disdaining, belligerently ignorant, downscale right-wingers are among my favorite culture war casualties.
Cheer up, guys . . . Prof. Volokh has already posted something that nips at the ankles of the mainstream in a manner that should appeal to what Ben_ describes as "the rest of us."
Not putting your pronouns on your twitter bio is anti-Science!
Sincerely,
Rev. Authur L. Kirkland
I have no Twitter bio.
Who is Authur?
No one cares who you are.
What matters is that my ideas continue to prevail at the American marketplace of ideas, arranging continuing victory for the liberal-libertarian mainstream -- at the expense of conservatives' retrograde thinking -- in the American culture war.
Any of you clingers wish to assert that you haven't been getting your asses kicked in the culture war for at least 50 years?
But, lying Rev, the NAS, (National Association of Scholars_ praised it. Your laziness leads you over the cliff.
Good point. (Though I'd cut off public funding of higher education regardless of whether a particular institution promotes racial hatred or other types of bigotry.)
Ya, we wouldn't want to promote competition with the rest of the world. We'll just pay the more educated societies that supplant us for all our high-tech consumer products and military weapons with our moral superiority credit cards. No big.
It's not like our vibrant post-secondary schools are literally a shining international achievement or anything.
They could stand to turn down the lights at the football games a bit.
'that promote racial hatred or other types of bigotry'
The right doesn't have ideas of its own, it cannibalises other ideas and wears their skins and claims the disguise is perfect.
NIge the Stupid again gives the best argument against himself.
So hatred and bigotry against the right are increased by Nige the Stupid who --- wait for it --- gets to define who is in fact 'the right'
In Nige;s case , yes, stupidity is the root error but it is still hatred.
"Also, Florida taxpayers have no obligation to fund institutions that promote racial hatred or other types of bigotry."
Since Ron DeSantis and his merry band of culture warriors aren't fighting racial hatred and bigotry with these laws, I'm at a loss as to what hatred and bigotry Florida taxpayers are presently supporting. It's a solution in search of a problem, but it plays well to his base.
zero sympathies for academics who now have a litmus DIE Bolshevik cultural marxist test for profs (Physics? Really?). Couldn't happen to a better bunch of hypocrites. Stay in your lane profs and teach your subject..
Colleges today don't allow dissent at all anyway.
If I understand Whittington, he is exceedingly dismayed at the attacks on academic freedom from the left, and determined to prevent any effectual response from the right. A useful idiot, indeed.
If I understand y8, he is upset at the possibility that Whittington's line of thought will derail the proto-fascist right and let a crisis in which they can effectively castrate the academy go to waste.
I have nothing against the academe. I just don’t see why I should have to pay for it.
Thanks for single-handedly paying for all the universities and colleges.
Are you on some drug ?
I don't see why I should have to pay to fix roads in Ed Grinberg's town. THey doN't hELp mEeeeee.
Can't see why alternate funding sources can't be considered. Our township made fully funding our road department a precondition of allowing any natural gas fracking to take place. Now we've got a few unobtrusive well pads and really nice roads, far better than we ever had before and my taxes haven't gone up a single penny, not to mention the quarterly royalty check I, and much of our residents collect as partial leaseholders.
Congratulations on your company-paved roads. What's your plan for everywhere else? How about the airports? Remember to do it without industry subsidies/tax breaks like the ones that benefitted your frackers? Remember, if you say "taxes" Ed will get mad.
For that matter, what's your plan when the shale dries up and the regular local economy resumes?
I adore the Panglossian libertarian fantasy in which the U.S. economy just "exists" without any government direction and automatically defeats every other economy in the world--all of which are benefitting from some level of government command (subsidies, taxes, etc.) to make wise strategic choices for themselves.
" Congratulations on your company-paved roads. "
Why assume they are paved? I figure directions to the homes of many of this blog's fans include "after you turn off the paved road . . ."
So attacks on academic freedom are to be repelled by making further such attacks?
Kind of a stupid idea.
It would help if the people complaining about the attack on their own academic freedom believed in academic freedom for others. Unfortunately, that’s not so.
That said, the test of one’s commitment to civil rights is the degree to which one supports civil rights for those they dislike/disagree with. Florida shouldn’t be doing this.
Be nice if the “victims” here could empathize with those whose academics freedom they try to suppress.
But I don't think there IS a civil right of free speech in a work context on a government payroll. You're on the clock, you do your job, and you don't have a civil right to do some other job you think needs doing instead.
That's what we're talking about here, after all: Academics think they have the right to be paid to do what THEY think they should do, not what their employer thinks they should do.
It's kind of revealing that the same people who want to reduce government involvement in everything are pointing out that absent government, freedom of speech within insitutions isn't really a thing.
I point out that, if you don't want the government controlling academic speech, don't insist that the academics work for the government, and that's your take on it? That absent government, there wouldn't be freedom of speech within institutions?
Government is the institution you'd least expect to have free speech while working for, coercion lies at the heart of everything it does. Literally, the only reason you assign a job to government is because you think coercion is necessary to get the job done! That's the only thing the government has to bring to bear in solving any problem at all, that private sector institutions don't get to use: Threatening people with violence if they don't do as they're told!
And despite the fact that government tends to be awful and illiberal, because it specializes in being awful and illiberal, academia today has almost miraculously managed to become WORSE. And so arrogant about it, they not only think they're entitled to plot society's overthrow, they're morally and legally entitled to have society pay them to do it!
Governments that protect free speech do so with the same threat of violence that governments who supress free speech use. The laws that govern and protect private companies do so with the same threat of violence. Absent government private corporations would use the threat of violence to govern themselves and protect their interests - they already do, hence security guards and private contractors doing mercenary work for corporations at home and abroad. So corporations are protected by private AND governmental threats of violence - nice for them.
It's a highly reductive take, but if you insist on using it, it's violent turtles all the way down. But there isn't any protection for free speech in private corporations, without government-protected unions employees can be fired for anything including saying the wrong thing. So if you're going to demand that governments act like private companies in terms of supressing speech that it doesn;t like, then you are using government to supress free speech in universtities having spent decades complaining about the supression of free speech in universities.
Another dumb rhetorical monstrosity from NIGE
Reduce involvement in everything? Good talking point if it has any meaning 🙂
And logically you must 'think' that within the institutions are none of those 'reduce everything" types. but here facts bite you in the ass.
Public School Teachers: Nationally, more than 20% of public school teachers with school-age children enroll them in private schools, or almost twice the 11% rate for the general public.
Philadelphia Public School Teachers: 44% enroll their own children in private schools, or four times the national average.
Cincinnati Public School Teachers: 41% enroll their own children in private schools, more than three times the national rate.
Chicago Public School Teachers: 39% enroll their own children in private schools, more than three times the national average.
Probably depends whether you can characterize what you want to say as an exercise of religious liberty. It's the favored son of the 1A rights these days.
No, it can't depend on that, for 3 reasons.
ANY view on religion is religious
Government distinguishes conscience and religion cf Atheist Conscientious Objection case.
To have control -- as you want --- would mean prior restraint, meaning you clearing whether what was to be said was 'religious'
As far as I can reconstruct your motives, you oppose virtually all the Founders, whose view was "No view can be censored by a pre-statement ruling that it is religious and therefore must be ignored.
Your view has fueled so many non-religious and even atheist anti-abortion groups (because of the obvious hate basis for even wanting to screen citizens)
SECULAR PRO-LIFE
PRO-LIFE ALLIANCE OF GAYS AND LESBIANS +
HUMAN RIGHTS START WHEN HUMAN LIFE BEGINS
THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF
PRO-LIFE OBSTETRICIANS AND GYNECOLOGISTS
BOARD CERTIFIED. PROFESSIONAL.
MEDICAL EXPERTS IN THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT SINCE 1973
Democrats for Life
PRogressive Anti-abortion Uprising
Feminsts for Life
I suppose Brett you would be opposed to a professor who on First Amendment grounds refused, as required by the public university, to teach a class on why the 1619 project's conclusions are correct.
You really have a hard time distinguishing between the legal and ethical issues here, don't you?
Obviously, the government shouldn't command its employees to lie, though it frequently does. And confronted with such a command, they should refuse, though they usually don't. That doesn't mean that, legally, if your job is to spout the government's lies, you're entitled to tell the truth instead, and continue to draw a paycheck.
I didn't mention anything about ethics. I asked a question about the First Amendment. From your response I take it your answer is you would think the professor has no First Amendment right to refuse.
No, the professor absolutely has a first amendment right to refuse. Just not to refuse and continue getting paid.
Conditioning money on waiving a right is not always Constitutional Brett.
Something you would agree with if your libertarianism hadn’t devolved into Conservative water carrying long ago.
Would a teacher have a first amendment right to teach that man was created by God and that evolution is a hoax?
I doubt any teacher has a First Amendment right to teach nonsense in a legitimate school . . . I also sense that plenty of -- if not most -- conservative-controlled schools are committed to teaching nonsense. Silly, childish nonsense.
"I doubt any teacher has a First Amendment right to teach nonsense in a legitimate school.
Huh? You want judges deciding what's nonsense?
If you mean specifically religious nonsense, I'm not sure how to prevent teachers from spouting religious nonsense without some sort of government speech doctrine.
Evolution is a hoax.
Storks deliver babies.
The moon is made of green cheese.
The Bible’s story of creation is accurate.
One plus four equals twelve.
Earth is a few thousand years old.
Those types of nonsense.
Firstly, my question was limited to public university professors. But no, a public university professor does not have a First Amendment right to teach creationism because of the Establishment Clause. On the other hand, if a university professor equally refuses to teach that the 1619 project's conclusions are wrong as required by the university, then the outcome should be the same (either the professor wins or the university wins) in both my original and revised hypotheticals.
To be clear, you're saying that a teacher in a public university has the same first amendment right to teach creationism as he does to teach dissenting views about the 1619 project, right? He has the right to teach both, or neither?
No. The professor has the same First Amendment right (either having it or not) to teach, contrary to what the public university wants, that the 1619 project's conclusions are 1) correct or 2) incorrect. There is no First Amendment right for a public university professor to teach creationism regardless of the joint outcome of the above two cases.
Why would the professors speech be private speech for free speech purposes but government speech for establishment clause purposes?
Why would the establishment clause prevent a professor who is not speaking on behalf of the government and who has a first amendment right to express his own opinion from teaching creationism?
I would think it's government speech in all cases, but the academic freedom doctrine (assuming it exists) would nonetheless protect the professor's lectures.
Surely that would directly contravene the ethos and purpose and of an educational institution to provide a good education - so not a First Amendment issue, but a matter of someone being unqualified and unsuitable for employment on professional grounds.
But consider that the requirement would be backed with some rationale and that rationale --- if wrong (and it would be in this case) -- is how the course ends up teaching the 1619 conclusions are wrong 🙂
As for me I see 2 ways that would happen
1) Hold an in-class debate (ostensibly to suppor the conclusions, but that would not happen 🙂
2) Point out that the more conclusions there are the less likely mathematically that ALL are correct
First witness would by Harvard's Black professor Henry Louis Gates
"The historians John Thornton and Linda Heywood of Boston University estimate that 90 percent of those shipped to the New World were enslaved by Africans and then sold to European traders. The sad truth is that without complex business partnerships between African elites and European traders and commercial agents, the slave trade to the New World would have been impossible, at least on the scale it occurred."
Then watch the explosion when whites argue that Gates is wrong because he's Black !!! WHAAAAM
"You’re on the clock, you do your job"
So you are hired as a University professor, whose job it is to make academic inquiries, develop your own ideas, instruct students (including the academic ideas you were hired to develop), and are held to a "publish or perish" standard for professional advancement, but you aren't allowed to choose inquiries, develop ideas, instruct students, or publish anything that upsets the particular flavor of partisan that controls the government at that particular moment?
So you are saying that the job that professors are hired to do, they shouldn't be permitted to do.
"Academics think they have the right to be paid to do what THEY think they should do, not what their employer thinks they should do."
And they are correct. The job of an academic isn't to take a subject assigned by the University and inquire into it. It is to create a body of work that they choose to pursue. Literally, that is their job.
And how well they do it impacts how well- compensated they are and how well-regarded they are, as well as how much being part of a particular institution increases that institution's reputation.
No college has ever said, "We hired this new professor who is a skilled government hack.". They say, "We have hired this renowned, published, and respected professor.".
In college I took a creative writing seminar with Toni Morrison, a Russian Politics class from Steven Cohen (in 1991 as the Soviet Union was disintegrating), and a Civil War class from James McPhearson, just to name a few.
None of those people (and they had VERY different outlooks on the world) were guided by government or University proclamations about what they should or shouldn't be studying. Granted, that was a private university, not a public one, but that is the competition that public universities face to attract students.
Requring professors to follow a partisan government curriculum instead of their own academic pursuits is another way of saying, "We don't want good professors. Mediocre drones are just fine".
And I had a few profs at the University of Rochester in the 80's who were highly "opinionated" against Catholics, Italians (most of them were Jewish liberals) in physics and chemistry classes of all places. My statistical thermodynamics prof tried to schedule a test on Easter Sunday and said it out loud he thought all Catholics were antisemites...the university did nothing. Left profs have been attacking students for decades and getting away with it..time it ends...
So the university didn't censor a professor's intolerant speech and that is proof that universities are intolerant?
Plus your post has nothing to do with what I wrote, so I'm not sure why you put it here.
Ah yes, the politically incorrect eighties. What larks.
One of the first rules of debatingf, do not multiply objections (like you do)
"partisan government curriculum"
So non-partisan is okay ?
Government , does that include Board of Trustees of the school itself?
"Curriculum" so having two opposed curricula, eg electives, would violate freedom for you. Now there's a counter-productive result of your view of fairness.
You don't get that the student is the boss, he pays, its his life etc.
You are a closet totalitarian "Scratch a liberal and you'll find a tyrant waiting to get out"
Why would you expect the victims empathise with the people who do nothing but attack them, undermine them and now threaten to use political power to silence them? This is what the victims have been warning about all along, that the true intentions of those screaming most obnoxiously about academic freedom and freedom of speech has always been to silence and destroy.
It would help if the people complaining about the attack on their own academic freedom believed in academic freedom for others. Unfortunately, that’s not so.
Most do. Unfortunately those are "dog bites man" stories. Remember, the media, especially the RW media, and to a certain extent the posters here, are going to jump on any case of a RW'er who runs into a problem.
Bernard you answered a bad objection with a silly one.
You say 'most' because you know you can't tell in any particular case, so will you use torture to find out 🙂
And of course you get to define 'RW media" , how convenent.
And that makes me smile "who runs into a problem" -- yet all i see in the news are anti's like you crying because somebody posted one of their hateful emails or tweets.
There is NO SENSE to saying that they have to believe in academic freedom for others. Under any sane law you would be allowed to speak regardless what you think/opine/post/feel about what someone else says. Isn't that what inquiry is
The attacks from the right have been fueled by lies and sensationalising 'attacks' from the left. After decades of hysterics about safe spaces and trigger warnings destroying academic freedom, here comes the actual political weight of the Republican Party enacting legilslation to repress academic speech they don't like, in colleges, schools and libraries.
Remove any communist and bolshevik from public universities. It isn't about free speech as they don't support it but rather exposing usually "globalist" anti-American red diaper traitors.
Just dying for another McCarthyite witch hunt aren't you? With or without the attendant xenophobia and anti-semitism? Guess that's what the 'globalist' stands in for these days. In the name of freedom of speech!
Is "academic freedom" an oxymoron?
Ask UCLA's law dean.
We did not throw out the commies in the 50's and 60's and they took over the place. Time to defund the whole mess that is the leftist indoctrination industrial complex. Let all those gender studies professors try to find real jobs instead of bilking their salary out of 18 year old kids who take out enough loans to buy a house.
Hear! Hear!
Gotta say, this seems very much a "He who pays the piper" situation.
Academic freedom had a huge amount of utility for a large part of history, because academics were usually less illiberal than the people running governments. And so letting the academics thwart the government was usually advancing liberty.
We find ourselves in a strange situation today where academia is, systematically, more illiberal than society at large, and more illiberal than democratically elected governments. Under the current conditions, academic liberty against governments funding academic institutions is the liberty to be illiberal, and to teach illiberalism.
It's important to be able to recognize when situations like this are confronting you, rather than mindlessly pursuing the policies that are usually beneficial. If your universities have been captured by a hostile, totalitarian ideology, giving them free rein to promote your enslavement is not really a great idea.
All fair points. But, again, as I see it, we went wrong before "[our] universities [were] captured by a hostile, totalitarian ideology." The whole idea of using taxpayer funds to fund colleges & universities was misguided, in my opinion.
I'll agree with that, but funding them to teach our downfall is MORE misguided.
'teach our downfall' what does that even mean?
It means to teach things that cause our downfall as a society.
HTH
Like what?
Like it is OK to fuck little kids in the ass with no lube. Or that men should be able to take athletic scholarships that should go to women.
That's not something taught in schools or colleges, that's taught in red states where child marriage is legal.
The other isn't happening.
Looks like society is saved.
Like it is OK to . . . with no lube.
Are you still trying to claim that your censorship of liberal commenters at this site was driven by civility standards, Prof. Volokh? That is what you told Artie Ray.
This is just a straight-up attack on something you don't control, but think you should, and if you can't control it, destroy it. Claiming universities are totalitarian while Republicans enact totalitarian legislation to silence certain voices is not, obviously, a contradiction, that's just a glimpse of the right's snake-head continuing to chew on its tail.
"while Republicans enact totalitarian legislation to silence certain voices ..."
How about an example?
Eg: this.
Yes, "don't teach racism on the public dime" is the next step to fascism.
Lyng about it is.
Well, "teach only the storybook version of history that we like" sure is.
I love this hot take from the Leftist dotards.
I mean seriously, how dumb do you have to be to genuinely believe CRT is just "real history"?
CRT is an elective course taught in some law schools. "CRT" is a scaremongering racist bogeyman used satanic-panic style to leverage reactionary political control over education and libraries.
Then why are you crying if it's being banned in worker trainings and grade schools?
It's not there to begin with, so why do you care?
Because the things that your fellow travelers claim are CRT, aren't.
In order to ban CRT, you have to understand what it actually is and ban those things.
Since it's not the caricature that the radical right believes it is, all of the culture warrior idiots who claim they are trying to ban CRT are actually banning something else.
“Because the things that your fellow travelers claim are CRT, aren’t.”
Language evolves. Deal with it.
But calling Newton's 2nd law a vegetable, much like calling CRT ... whatever nonsense conservatives are claiming these days, isn't an evolution of language. It is just factually untrue.
But this is just a motte and baily defense, and everybody knows it.
And it's an irrelevant motte and baily defense, because the laws in question don't ban CRT by name, they list the elements of CRT as understood by its opponents, and ban THOSE. Even if the opponents of CRT were wrong about what it teaches, (Spoiler: They're not.) it would still be banning those elements, not the supposedly misunderstood CRT.
So, to properly oppose the ban, you need to defend those elements being banned, NOT CRT itself.
You've seen the lists quoted from those laws. Those elements are quite indefensible.
The law bans a lot more than CRT, it bans defending affirmative action, for one.
If what they're banning isn't actually CRT but they feel the need to lie about it, what are they drad set on banning? We already know they love to prohibit books they don't like, what else?
'Language evolves'
Language is co-opted, weaponised, demonised, used as cover for opressive agendas under the guise of moral crusades.
'You’ve seen the lists quoted from those laws. Those elements are quite indefensible.'
But we also know that in using 'woke' and 'CRT' those implementing the laws are liars and acting in bad faith, and that what they seem to fundamentally object to is the teaching of the history black people in the US, co-opting the language of equality to promote a white supremacist ideology.
"So, to properly oppose the ban, you need to defend those elements being banned, NOT CRT itself."
See, much like with life beginning at conceotion, the onus is on the ones claiming something to justify it. Cultural conservatives claim that there is some sort of racism going on (and sexualization of children and grooming, but we'll focus on one ridiculous, insane belief at a time).
Prove it. If, as claimed, this is a solution then prove that there is a problem. Otherwise it's just another juvenile stunt with no purpose designed to delight the base.
Using the power of the state like a cudgel is a bad thing, especially when there isn't a problem in the first place.
Who said anything about CRT? I just want actual history. That's not too much to ask is it?
In other words, not DeSantis' gibberish:
https://www.newsweek.com/historians-trash-ron-desantis-understanding-us-history-slavery-1746001
'I mean seriously, how dumb do you have to be to genuinely believe CRT is just “real history”?"
How dumb do you have to be to believe CRT is taught in K-12 schools?
Or that CRT is required to be accepted by college students?
Or, for that matter, that anyone who takes a college class on CRT is incapable of resisting the mesmerizing, brainwashing power of such a weak historical theory?
I was taught plenty in college that I listened to and thought, "Yeah, that doesn't make sense.". People who aren't idiots can listen to things that they disagree with without losing their own belief system.
"Well, “teach only the storybook version of history that we like” sure is."
The "Storybook" version of "This race group is the cause of problems"? In most cases, that'd be viewed as laughable hackery.
Mind you, I'm all for us pulling every dime out of colleges and taxing their endowments to hell and back and let the professors teach whatever they want.
Jesus, what sort of college did you go to? I guess that some place like Liberty or Grand Canyon would be comfortable with something as unnuanced and indefensible as that, but colleges with actual academic rigor wouldn't.
I still don't understand why you think CRT should be banned. I learned all about Communism, which is part of the reason that I am a capitalist (the other parts being that it makes sense and works). Just because something is taught doesn't mean it is believed.
I would oppose teaching Klan beliefs on race (really, not that different from CRT) as well.
If you want to be a bigot, fine. I choose to not fund it.
I also learned about the Klan and their beliefs in college (along with everyone else in the class). Astonishingly, none of us suddenly felt the need to don sheets and hate blacks. Weird.
Shall we discuss which views have widespread acceptance on campuses. Perhaps todays millenial progressives are bigots (I am not one to disagree)?
Since the only thing that we have discussed that includes bigotry is Klan beliefs, I’m not sure what you are talking about.
I would also point out that the chances that you are plugged in to what's happening on college campuses are slim and none.
If you believe everything that Alex Jones and The Gateway Pundit tell you about what the kids are into these days, it isn't a surprise that you are clueless.
Yu were perfectly happy for the longest time with the historical narrative that 'black people were enslaved by white people then opressed by them' so long as it was a kind of fairy tale with a happy ending in the background to the glorious march of the US with all its independence and feeedom, then black scholars started foregrounding it, examining it critically, and discussing the long-term effects, which all run counter to that myth and now some white people feel like they're being blamed and that's just as racist as the Ku Klux Klan. Amazing.
The Egyptians owned the Hebrews in Exodus, and nobody whines about the Bible being racist against Egyptians because it celebrates the Hebrew emancipation.
Hindu Indians owned many indigenous slaves when the British got there in the 19th Century, and nobody whines that the Brits were racist for (mostly) ending it during colonial times. (They were rather racist in some other ways, however.)
Afrikaners imposed incredible oppression on Black South Africans, and nobody whines that the international condemnation and divestment of the 1980s and 90s was racist.
But apparently it's OMG RACIST! to suggest that the dominant group in the US (hint: White people) clung to post-slavery institutions that continued the oppression of the former slaves (hint: not White people).
Nige, the government ALREADY controls the government's own schools. They're working for the government, on the government's dime.
The government doesn't have to pay its own employees to teach things it disagrees with. This is, in fact, one of the reasons education and government should be strictly separated. He who pays the piper calls the tune, this is an unavoidable fact of life, so if you don't want the government dictating the tune, don't demand it hire the piper.
The level of control here is what the whole question is.
But regardless of the is question, that you think the government ought to just come down on academic freedom if it can is indeed very revealing of where you truly stand on the freedom of those you disagree with,
Let's be clear about my position.
1. As a constitutional matter, I don't think government funded educational institutions ever had a good claim to the freedom to teach what the government doesn't want taught. Any claim they might have to such freedom is dependent on it being good policy.
2. As a policy matter, I'd favor academic liberty at government funded schools anyway, if if were not that,
3. As it happens, said schools, in some dark miracle, actually have managed to become worse than the government funding them, so that,
4. The government is actually ordering the schools to stop teaching racial hatred and bigotry, and the schools are demanding the right to continue teaching it!
Yes, things have actually gotten so bad in many of academic institutions, that the government dictating what's taught would be an improvement. The situation is genuinely that dire.
As Jimmy the Dane says, we failed to purge the commies after WWII the way we did the fascists, and they ended up taking over academia. Now we're faced with what's probably going to be a generations long fight fixing that, and we may just have to burn the whole mess to the ground and start fresh, it's that bad.
3. Is that because Republicans keep demonising teachers and public schools and cutting their funding in favour of private schools? Make them worse as policy, claim they're worse still as propaganda, PROFIT!
No, that's an incredibly stupid take.
No, it’s quite clever, because you see this way some rich people get richer.
No, it's dumb as dirt. An earthworm could come up with a better argument than to bellow out some stupid tropes about grade schools when someone is talking about universities.
Quoting Brett: ‘government funded educational institutions.’
But even so: so what? You ain't the boss of what commenters talk about. Back in the dirt, laddie, get aerating.
As Jimmy the Dame says, Brett? Listen to yourself.
McCarthy was not right, he was a populist fascistic drunk.
Schools are not communist, they tend to be liberal. That’s it.
Redbaiting authoritarianism has a king history in Europe. You seem into it.
But the historical record thoroughly support McCarthy. Of course, you just lie about it because that is all the left has anymore - lies.
The historical record supports McCarthy? You obviously have a very different definition of "supports" than everyone else.
Yes, we got a look at the KGB archives when the USSR fell, as well as having extensive intercepts of their communications. The US government was just lousy with communists working for the USSR. The Rosenbergs were guilty as hell, for example. So was Hiss.
Many of these people weren't official spies, they were "just" fellow travelers, ideologically sympathetic to communism. They were still indirectly working for the USSR.
So, the historical record supports McCarthy's claims about communist subversion, even if he was bullshitting about having a list of those communists.
I suspect that history will reveal that the situation is as bad today, only with China replacing the USSR.
We were never in any danger of a Communist takeover, and fucking the First Amendment out of fear in the Red Scare turned out to have been a low point in our history.
That Communist spies existed does not change that. Plenty of ways to manage counterintelligence without making an ideology illegal.
Reigniting the Red Scare to weed out ideological opponents in the name of freedom? Wasnt it all just show trials, grandstanding, xenophobia and anti-semitism and ruining the lives of perfectly blameless people? You want all that back again?
"Many of these people weren’t official spies, they were “just” fellow travelers, ideologically sympathetic to communism. They were still indirectly working for the USSR."
This is doing an awful lot of lifting in your thesis.
Apparently accusing the government (specific departments with specific, albiet constantly changing, numbers) of being rife with Communist spies actively working against the United States (which is what McCarthy said) and having people who were sympathetic to Communist ideas, but not doing anything against the United States, are the same thing. According to you.
There's a reason it was called the Red Scare. It was about leveraging fear and suspicion in pursuit of political power, with no tangible evidence to back it up.
Remember, regardless of what you claim the KGB knew, Eugene McCarthy didn't know any of it. He just made shit up.
"But regardless of the is question, that you think the government ought to just come down on academic freedom if it can is indeed very revealing of where you truly stand on the freedom of those you disagree with,"
Universities have not given two damns about "academic freedom" in quite a long time now. It is time they are forced to actually support it or, if they wish to not do so, forego all public benefits --- including loans, tax breaks, etc.
Ah yes. You are mad at their freedom because you believe they are abusing it,
Defiantly an excuse to crush their independence. For freedom.
Hey, I'm all for maximizing their independence. By removing every dime of public monies to make them more independent.
Or just stop trying to stifle their independence directly. That is also a choice you could make.
But aren’t. For reasons.
You want independence, you pay the bill yourself. You demand others pay it, they get to call the shots.
So, be independent.
This is you, making a choice, to take choice away from others.
Saying you pay taxes so you get to dictate is like the worst stereotype of a liberal authoritarian.
"This is you, making a choice, to take choice away from others.
Saying you pay taxes so you get to dictate is like the worst stereotype of a liberal authoritarian."
Sorry, if you accept the money, you accept the strings. Be bold and serious about your beliefs.
That is not the law. That should not be the law. And it is as authoritarian take on the law as I’ve ever seen,
"That is not the law. That should not be the law. And it is as authoritarian take on the law as I’ve ever seen,"
Tell me more about authoritarianism with how colleges handle sexual assault allegations. Even after losing several suits over it.
Don’t change the subject.
" Universities have not given two damns about “academic freedom” in quite a long time now. "
How do you explain the continued employment of Eugene Volokh, Randy Barnett, and a few others by mainstream universities that would prefer not to be associated with the bigoted, downscale content of this white, male, right-wing blog?
What about the academic freedom of K-12 students, who are compelled to attend school?
What about the academic freedom of taxpayers and voters?
Academic freedom for the students? That’s Tinker.
Stop conflating faculty with students. Student free speech is a thing, and not at issue here.
"Stop conflating faculty with students."
Why? Students have just as much a right to academic freedom as faculty. Arguably more so, if they're not government employees. And if you believe in academic freedom in K-12 schools, you should also be against compulsory education and government run schools.
I mean, do you really think the government can compel students to come to school but not control what gets taught?
So children have to go to school and there has to be a national curriculum? Tyranny!
It operates differently.
And no that’s dumb. Requiring schooling is not a first amendment violation of children.
Good lord.
Again, are you claiming that government can compel children to attend school, but it can't control what they are taught? Talk about dumb.
Control, eh? Well that’s pretty mask off.
Education writ large is a public good. Also academic independence is good.
And, legally, accepting funds does not waive your rights. You know this, but are either lying or self deluding due to your incredible hostility for education.
"Education writ large is a public good. Also academic independence is good."
Shame neither is in effect here and now.
Schools do not teach. And academic freedom does not exist on campus.
“And, legally, accepting funds does not waive your rights.”
But being a public employee does. You know this, but are either lying or deluded due to your incredible desire to gaslight.
Well if you decide to believe such extreme nonsense you can rationalize anything. From closing all the schools to nationalizing all the social media companies to disallowing Democratic electors to who knows what else.
The idea that K-12 education is government speech is fairly mainstream.
You know this, Gaslightro.
No new goalposts. Your thesis is about children and compelled speech.
Your retreat is noted.
"What about the academic freedom of K-12 students, who are compelled to attend school?"
Is K-12 curriculum less nuanced and more standardized than college? Yes.
"What about the academic freedom of taxpayers and voters?"
You want to know about the academic freedom of people who aren't in school? I don't think you understand what words mean.
It's almost like a general education, geared towards children with less ability to understand complex concepts than an adult, wouldn't be as in-depth as college-level courses. Almost.
Being a taxpayer and a voter doesn't mean you get to micromanage everything your taxes pay for or your elected officials oversee.
You don't get a line-item veto on the city budget. You don't get input on the construction plan of a road paving project. You don't get to adjust the rules for the lifeguards at the public pool. And you don't get to micromanage the curriculum of your school because you think that something is happening (despite every bit of evidence showing that it isn't) that you don't like.
I'd rather have the government run education with the aim of educating people rather than private companies, with the aim of making profits, but Republicans rather nakedly trying to force their current ideology onto the educational system does show there are risks involed in both approaches.
Wouldn't you want the system that produces the best, most educated students regardless of it's means?
Or are you like Sarcastr0, who doesn't mind people suffering so long as the people in government are the ones deciding who suffers?
Properly funded and supported public schools and universities will overall produce the best educated populace. Private schools will end up providing a great education to those who can afford it while running down facilities and staff and nickle-and-diming everyone else.
What a neat trick. The only reason government schools fail is that they aren't funded enough! Government schools are failing means they aren't being funded enough! Nice tautology.
It's not the only reason, but Republicans do love to sabotage.
" Wouldn’t you want the system that produces the best, most educated students regardless of it’s means? "
One system -- operated by, in, and for the liberal-libertarian mainstream -- provides to our society essentially all of its strongest research and teaching institutions, marked by outstanding faculties, robust endowments, sterling reputations, accomplished alumni, and leading faculty. These schools are known for Nobel Prizes and similar awards; society-improving research; academic freedom; preferences for reason and science; and a strong tether to the reality-based world.
Another system -- operated by conservatives, generally rooted in religion -- contributes mostly fourth-tier (or unranked) schools marked by mediocre faculties, shambling endowments, shabby reputations, nondescript alumni, and downscale faculty. These schools are known for teaching nonsense, suppressing science, flouting academic freedom, enforcing dogma, imposing old-timey speech and conduct codes, collecting loyalty oaths, demanding adherence to statements of faith, engaging in strenuous viewpoint-driven discrimination, arranging sketchy accreditation, and populating the lesser reaches of every legitimate ranking of educational institutions.
Which system is better? Which produces the best results? Which produces the best everything?
Conservatives prefer to ignore this point. Why are conservative schools so bad? Why do not conservatives address a perceived market failure by applying their ostensible principles -- for profit and societal good -- by building and operating strong educational institutions to compete with liberal-libertarian mainstream schools?
Conservatives also prefer to ignore the obvious answers to those questions.
Carry on, clingers. So far as Ouachita Baptist, Hillsdale, Liberty, Franciscan, Grove City, Regent, Ave Maria, Bob Jones, and Cedarville educations could take anyone, that is.
The only government schools are top tier universities!
Sincerely,
The Rev. Authur L. Kirkland!
It is difficult to respect rubes who consider Hillsdale superior to Harvard, Biola better than Berkeley, Oral Roberts or Bob Jones a legitimate school, and the like.
It also is increasingly difficult to respect the operators of a blog that cultivate those dumbasses as an audience.
Carry on, clingers. But just so far as your betters permit.
If someone has to suffer I’d like it to be intentional and decided on not via some amoral invisible hand that mostly loves rich people.
Why does the invisible hand love rich people, Sarcastro?
Because it takes money to make money. And buy things. And pay property taxes.
Because it's a rich person's hand.
Brett, tell us where all your expertise and knowledge about what happens at universities come from.You know, just so we can evaluate your credentials.
My guess is it comes from some RW lunatic sites, and the occasional post here. IOW, it's highly selective, and promotes a particular POV.
Are you listening to yourself, Brett? You'll separate "education" and government, but not "religion" and government. So call it what it is-- your preference is a theocracy, not secular society.
You can have a theocracy, just not in America.
The government doesn’t have to pay its own employees to teach things it disagrees with.
I don't know if it has to, since it doesn't have to fund universities at all.
But once it does fund a university it does in fact "have to pay its own employees to teach things it disagrees with." Because otherwise it's not funding a university. The idea is emphatically not to just teach whatever ignorant opinions the legislators have about things.
Look, go ahead an close the U . of FL and other places and set up trade schools if you want. But then don't have a history department at all. At least then you are not lying to people.
Its very plain that what the right wants is a sanitized, Disneyfied picture presented.
Pssst. Don't say "Disney." They're commies too, now.
It's worth noting that Academic Freedom is a concept that originated at a time when academia was almost universally private. Most of the current "free speech" debate wouldn't even have been relevant because they were not government-run schools.
It's also worth noting that historically Academic Freedom was about freedom to research the topics that interested you (once you were sufficiently advanced in the hierarchy), not necessarily to teach whatever you liked. Someone still had to teach Anatomy 101 and you couldn't get out of it by crying "academic freedom".
Rossami: Modern American academic freedom principles are generally seen as dating back to the 1915 AAUP declaration. By then, most of the great state universities were already major players.
I couldn't find any data on enrollment quite that far back, but by 1931-32 almost half of all 4-year university students were at public universities. That percentage is higher today (apparently about 2/3), but I expect it was quite substantial even in 1915.
Most of the readings I've done put the origins of the concept either in the Enlightenment (mid-1600s to late-1700s) or to the Prussian reform that led to the Humboldtian university (very early 1800s).
Of course, you can find elements of the principle all the way back to Socrates but, as you say, we are only concerned with the modern incarnation. But I think even that goes back before 1915.
Of course, professors at private universities are in the same boat. Academic freedom protections in schools like Princeton University depend on contracts and professional norms, not constitutional protections.
State colleges and universities would be setting the standard here. If state institutions no longer have protections for academic freedom, then private universities would likely start to follow suit in their contracts and policies, because, why not? That is another reason why it is important to maintain academic freedom at public universities.
I disagree. If some state colleges and universities abandoned academic freedom, private universities as well as the better state systems (like the California system) would recognize that there is about to be a large number of accomplished academics available. They would get ready to snap them up to improve their universities and make them more competitve for high-quality students.
The systems that abandoned academic freedom would become much worse as the brain drain that their policies created made them less appealing to students who want a quality education.
Smarter states would take advantage of the situation, not join with the ones shooting themselves in the foot.
I believe in a very robust 1st amendment, which may indeed invalidate portions of the WOKE act.
But I also don't think there is a special 1st amendment for anyone, the press and academics have to live with the same protections, no more, no less than the rest of us, although of course they may be enhanced by statute, or later revoked.
But I also don’t think there is a special 1st amendment for anyone, the press and academics have to live with the same protections, no more, no less than the rest of us, although of course they may be enhanced by statute, or later revoked.
Kazinski, perhaps you suppose that announces a useful principle. But your advocacy seems reliant in part on a mistaken premise—that constitutional rights actually empower particular groups of people. Of course that is not true in principle—as your comment seems also to acknowledge. So your comment is a bit of a muddle.
Constitutional rights protect enumerated activities, which all people are free to practice or not as they please. It is pretty threatening to the notion of rights itself to suggest, as you have done, that some rights empower privileged groups, such as the press or academics. That particular groups favor and practice rights-protected activities tells us nothing about what the character of the rights should be.
There is nothing inherently wrong with a rights interpretation that academics, for instance, enjoy rights to research or advocate in ways you, or a political faction, or a political majority, disapprove.
The right debate can only properly be over the extent of the activities the rights protect, for everyone.
Every suggestion to limit those activities comes with a cost of increase to majoritarian power in society and government. Defenders of Florida's restrictive approach to academic freedom are rightly viewed as rights opponents. If that is a group in which you wish to number yourself, at least do it with understanding that your advocacy expresses also a rights-restrictive premise.
All the leftist nutters on this board crying about DeSantis would the first in line to ruin the life of a professor who published a study on the superior benefits of a biologically intact natural family, for example.
Profs have published such. I’ve seen them quoted here.
Your hypothetical hypocrisy comes pre debunked.
Professors publish studies like that all the time. They tend to be badly flawed, but they don't cause any problem for the professors who run them, aside from the professional backlash from their flawed methodologies.
Which is one way of rationalizing ruining the life of the professor who dared to publish the study, I suppose. It's not like they're going to say, "This study is well done, and conclusively proves it's results, which we don't like, so you're fired."
They're always going to claim that studies that demonstrate things they don't want demonstrated are poor studies.
Academics are always going to challenge each other's studies as poor studies - it happens all the time.
If an academic fails to use good methodology and puts a deeply flawed study out into the world in pursuit of a preferred narrative, there is only one person who has ruined that person's life.
The thing about published studies is that the methodology is available for everyone to judge. The nefarious "they" can say whatever they want, but other academics will be able to look at it and say, "Wow, that really is a dumpster fire. No wonder that fool got fired." or "Wow, that was really well done.".
Guess which one the studies that find nuclear, heterosexual households without divorce are vastly superior to any other type of households for children. Hint: it's not the one you want it to be.
It seems to me the best and most effective first step would be to establish some central database of the ideological makeup of the faculty of every school so parents and prospective students can become more informed education consumers.
If I am on the Right and the school I am considering is 90% Left, I know to keep looking, or vice versa.
That way you don’t have government directing speech, the potential student body does.
Just like any other product or commodity, when people vote with their wallet, behaviors adapt to suit the customer or they don’t survive, and for that to happen you need an informed customer.
By all means, send your children to Liberty, Regent, Hillsdale, Biola, Bob Jones, Oral Roberts, or Fill-In-The-Blank Baptist . . . and I will thank you for the opportunity to have my children compete economically with your children.
Not saying I would be one of those people, but when is a more educated consumer a bad thing?
You are also suggesting there are only extremes. How about if I wanted to attend a school there the faculty is split 50/50 down the middle because I wanted to be exposed to all sides and ideas of a issue?
How about if I wanted to just be educated in my chosen subject of study and wanted to stay the hell out of politics all together?
Maybe I just want to be a civil engineer, or a software designer, or an astrophysicist and the whole lot strikes me as crazy and irrelevant? I’ve met plenty of the aforementioned over the years who probably couldn’t tell you who the President is, let alone any policies they advocate, but they could talk for hours about the theoretical properties of an Einstein–Rosen Bridge, or the implications of Hawking Radiation on the long term future of the Universe.
In general, the more conservatives -- especially strident conservatives -- on a faculty, the shittier the school.
Why?
I think it depends on the subject. I wouldn't say an economist who subscribes to Von Mises is any worse than a Keynesian, they just have different views. I doubt there are many left wing teachers of the Classics out there. Don't think I've ever meat a left wing Mineral Geologist.
Now by the same token, a Creationist is going to make a lousy Paleontologist, or Quantum Mechanic, the beliefs just don't mesh.
It does not depend on the subject. Generally, the more conservatives on the faculty, the lower the school’s quality. Why?
A creationist might make a lousy paleontologist, but I don't see how it has any implications for the teaching of quantum mechanics.
Your system would require a universal definition of "Left" and "Right". Considering some here believe that thinking Trump was a terrible President means you are a leftist or that thinking socialism is a terrible system means you are a rightist, that is clearly an impossibility.
"a variety of race-related ideas"
I'm afraid that's a euphemism. What the law forbids in tax-supported schools is the teaching of these "ideas" -
1. Members of one race, color, sex, or national origin are morally superior to members of another race, color, sex, or national origin.
2. An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin, is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously.
3. An individual’s moral character or status as either privileged or
oppressed is necessarily determined by his or her race, color, sex, or national origin.
4. Members of one race, color, sex, or national origin cannot and should not attempt to treat others without respect to race, color, sex, or national origin.
5. An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin, bears responsibility for, or should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment because of, actions committed in the past by other members of the same race, color, sex, or national origin.
6. An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin, should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment to achieve diversity, equity, or inclusion.
7. An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin, bears personal responsibility for and must feel guilt, anguish, or other forms of psychological distress because of actions, in which the individual played no part, committed in the past by other members of the same race, color, sex,
or national origin.
8. Such virtues as merit, excellence, hard work, fairness, neutrality, objectivity, and racial colorblindness are racist or sexist, or were created by members of a particular race, color, sex, or national origin to oppress members of another race, color, sex, or national origin.
If such racist teachings at a school become sufficiently pervasive, it violates federal law. So it's hard to argue that a preventive bill to prevent this material from being taught in the first place, is unreasonable.
If it violates federal law this law is redundant.
If it doesn’t then what federal law says is immaterial.
The state can stop its agencies from starting down the slippery slope to violation of federal law and the risk of losing funding.
Does the First Amendment allow the teaching of racist doctrines by government employees on the clock, right up until the point it violates federal law? Then you’ve got the school coming and going, suing it for not promoting enough racist speech and suing it for promoting too much. And how can a state university prevent violations of federal racial-harassment law if it can't stop the harassment in the bud but has to wait until it becomes severe and pervasive enough for the feds to intervene?
The state can act proactively to regulate its own speech – or the speech of its own agents – so it doesn’t start down the slippery slope of violating federal law.
And if the statute simply imposes state penalties for violation of federal law it’s not “redundant,” it makes illegal racism subject to increased punishment. It’s the state cleaning up its own house so the feds have less to do in that line.
I'm not aware of any doctrine that allows the censoring of protected speech because it might lead down a slope to unprotected speech.
"protected speech"
Question-begging.
Your slippery slope argument assumed the speech that fell short of violating federal law was protected. If it isn't, then federal law is irrelevant and you don't have to make the slippery slope argument.
I don't recall making that assumption. I said
"The state can act proactively to regulate its own speech – or the speech of its own agents – so it doesn’t start down the slippery slope of violating federal law."
It's my understanding that, under the doctrine of government speech, the government is entitled to censor *itself.*
The Supreme Court has acknowledged the right of the government to censor what its own agents say while on the clock - the only area where they reserved judgment was at the college level, but on that subject they expressed no opinion.
Thus, I don't even have to commit lèse-majesté against the Supreme Court to say this: state university professors are on a level with other agents of the state when it comes to preaching racism on the clock - they can be stopped from doing so, just as surely as DMV clerks can be stopped from preaching racism while on the job.
No one is preaching racism in schools. You and your fellow travelers are so far up your own asses you're about to come out of your own mouths.
Excellent, like I said to Sarcastr0, you have nothing to worry about from a law which prohibits schools from teaching what they're not teaching anyway.
"Let the galled jade wince; our withers are unwrung."
What you are trying to "ban" and CRT are two very different things.
But it would be a perfect springboard for every whackadoodle who thinks talking about slavery is racist against white people to sue school districts continuously.
But I'm sure that never crossed anyone's mind.
Let me take a wild guess - you haven't read the law, have you?
The statewide curriculum, before, during and after the bill, includes "the enslavement experience" among material which *must* be taught.
So they can indeed talk about slavery - it's even in the mandated statewide curriculum. Of course, in teaching about slavery, they can't provide *indoctrination* indicating that "[A]n individual’s moral character or status as either privileged or oppressed is necessarily determined by his or her race, color, sex, or national origin." And the instruction has to conform to the statewide curriculum.
"CRT"
Fine, then, CRT is a totally innocent subject and has nothing to do with the racist propositions banned by the law. How's that?
Doesn't alter the fact that mendacious populist distortions of 'CRT' and 'wokeism' are the motivating factors behind this law, and its design, implementation and enforcement will reflect those distortions.
Doesn't alter the fact that they pass a law against preaching racism to schoolchildren and howls of protest immediately go up - and the criticism rarely seems to mention the actual text of the law.
Howls of protest go up over the naked lying and the bad faith and the white supremacy, no amount of playing faux-innocent will change that.
The crafty white supremacists who passed a law against teaching racism?
Sounds like such a law would crimp their style.
If it wasn't a description of what they were actually doing, they could just have a good laugh at how stupid it was, and go about their business. They freak out because it's on target.
You’ve been recasting anti-racism as the real racism for a while now, so teaching that black people were enslaved and opressed by whites is ‘blaming whites’ and therefore racism is a logical progression. Any indication that black people experience racism at the hands of white peple is going to be racism against white people, and that’s illegal now. Making good things appear toxic, then passing laws against them – that’s Republicanism!
'They freak out because it’s on target.'
And the target is an educational system that teaches the history of black people in the US and is too LGTBQ friendly.
Again, the mandate for Florida public schools to teach "the enslavement experience" remains in effect. The effect of slavery on human rights can also be discussed so long as it's not a cover for preaching collective guilt.
Your errors about the contents of this law can be corrected by reading the law itself, and the post gives a link to it.
You can teach about Japanese atrocities in WWII, just so long as you don't attribute collective guilt to the Japanese-American students for those atrocities.
You can teach about the crime problem so long as you don't tell students of a particular race that they are tainted by association by criminals of the same race.
So it should be possible to teach about slavery without preaching collective guilt to the white students.
You can do all those things, but the feelings of white people are pre-eminent because the law was fueled by lies, distortions and base populism, so I wouldn't bet on it.
Have you read the law, or just the distorted talking points of the law's opponents?
Yes, and more importantly I also listened to the lies and distortions of the law's proponents and supporters, and am aware of their behaviour in terms of prohibiting books in schools and libraries.
It's interesting that the opponents of the law rarely see fit to share with the public the details of the law which so outrages them.
The sponsors of the law are the least competent white supremacists I ever heard of.
Supposedly they want to keep information about slavery away from students, but they leave intact the inclusion of slavery in the mandated state curriculum.
They want to preach racism, but they pass a law against public-school teachers preaching racism.
They believe in white supremacy, but they pass a law by which white supremacy (or any other kind of racial supremacy) is forbidden to be taught.
If it's speech that the government is entitled to censor under the government-speech doctrine, then federal law and the slippery slope argument need not be invoked. So, what's the point of bringing up federal law and a slippery slope?
Yes, under the rules of legal analysis, once you cite one reason for a thing, you aren't allowed to mention any other reasons. You can only pick one legal theory! And you certainly can't suggest any interconnection between legal theories.
What's the other legal theory?
Not only is it the government speaking, but if the government engages in pervasive racial harassment when it speaks it runs afoul of federal civil rights statutes.
Without a federal statute, *maybe* the state would be free to allow pervasive racial harassment (though the 14th Amendment would seem to count against this). Then the federal government could impose penalties on the institution the state runs by cutting off its money.
So, the state isn't obliged to spread racism through its institutions, plus there are federal limits on its doing so. The state can choose to stop short of the federally-forbidden pervasive-harassment standard.
So the argument for a right of state employees, while on the clock and in defiance of their own government/employer, to preach racism, is doubly unconvincing.
But given this is an alternate legal theory (i.e., we assume the primary legal theory, the government may censor government speech, does not apply), then we are back to your claim that a slippery slope towards violating a federal law suffices to justify censorship even when the speech is otherwise protected.
Nope.
Federal law limits the right of the state to promote racism - at least if that reaches the level of severe and persistent harassment.
The state can choose not to promote racism at all, without having to test the limits of federal law.
Once the state decides not to promote racism, its employees have to obey that edict while they're on the clock.
If my previous remarks were unclear, this should be clearer.
That's the primary legal theory. But if public university professors have a First Amendment right under the academic freedom doctrine to teach what they want (short of violating federal harassment law) even if the state thinks it is racist, then the primary legal theory fails.
What else can the state argue? An alternate legal theory that the state's interest in avoiding a slippery slope towards violating federal law trumps the academic freedom doctrine? I don't think so.
"if public university professors have a First Amendment right under the academic freedom doctrine to teach what they want"
Even the Supreme Court never said that; they reserved judgment.
So without the Supreme Court, how have they managed to preserve the right to teach as they please (within certain broad limits)?
Because of contracts and academic practices, not the Constitution.
I suppose that if they actually have a contract allowing them to promote racism, the state legislature can't retroactively mess with that contract.
Of course, that might crimp the style, not only of conservative legislators, but of activists who demand a professor be fired for exercising his contractual rights to preach racism (or, more likely, to preach what the activists are pleased to call racism).
The academic freedom doctrine is the whole point of the OP. It’s been supported by lower court rulings, but not by the 11th circuit yet. See for example Adams v. University of North Carolina–Wilmington, 640 F.3d 550 (4th Cir. 2011).
I may have missed something there, so your summary may be the right one.
But I skimmed the opinion…the University seems to have disliked his *out-of-class* expressions, e. g., his articles aimed at the general public.
But they're not the Supreme Court.
See also Eugene's summary which references cases from the Fifth, Sixth and Ninth Circuits in addition to the above Fourth Circuit case.
No doubt this is unsettled law. My only point was if it eventually comes down in favor of academic freedom, then I don't think a slippery slope argument will change the result.
"if it eventually comes down in favor of academic freedom, then I don’t think a slippery slope argument will change the result."
if.
Until the Supreme Court gives its doctrinally-binding guidance, I am free to say that public university employees should be held to the same standard as public high-school teachers and DMV clerks.
With the reservation I mentioned - that there may be contractual rights for the faculty which the legislature cannot retroactively revoke - that would interfere with the obligation of contracts.
Professors as agents of the state is some hard question begging.
Isn't all this irrelevant? It prohibits public educators at all levels from inculcating racist doctrines.
Surely this is unnecessary since no educator would presume to teach any of these things.
You're simply, I presume, defending the principle that a hypothetical but non-existent public educator can teach racism.
Are state college professors the only public educators who can teach racism on the clock (not that this ever happens)?
If it’s all irrelevant, weird if you to go in about it so much, this some kinda gallop you are on?
As to the specific issues, the problem lies in when yiu read the thing,
Number 3 is just wrong - privilege is not a binary you have or not. But it does let you quit teaching about social disparities!
Racial color blindness can perpetuate a racist system. And our meritocracy kinda sucks at it’s job.
Number 5 and 6 bans talking about affirmative action in any but a negative light.
So yeah, in with the obvious are a lot of details with devils in them. Devils you may support but that’s on you. This is censorious as all hell.
And you support it because authoritarianism in the direction you like is liberty, actually.
Here, then, are the propositions you endorse:
"3. An individual’s moral character or status as either privileged or
oppressed is necessarily determined by his or her race, color, sex, or national origin."
The key phrase is "necessarily determined" - it doesn't say privilege is a binary.
"5. An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin, bears responsibility for, or should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment because of, actions committed in the past by other members of the same race, color, sex, or national origin.
"6. An individual, by virtue of his or her race, color, sex, or national origin, should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment to achieve diversity, equity, or inclusion."
These propositions are, indeed, racist, and here we come to the actual reasons for opposition to this law.
But there's more in the law about what *has* to be taught: "Students shall develop an understanding of the ramifications of
prejudice, racism, and stereotyping on individual freedoms..."
White privlidge is a thing. oops I’m in jail.
Affirmative Action is good policy. Oops I’m in jail.
Yiu are defending this as totally fine, because it mandates agreeing with you.
Shameful.
Yes, it would be shameful to teach those things.
White privilege isn't a thing in any meaningful sense. By the time you dilute it to the point where you can argue it's real, it no longer matches anything banned by one of these anti-CRT laws.
And affirmative action, as what the term has meant for decades now, is just a form of racial discrimination, and evil.
But as a government teacher you'd still be free to believe in those evil doctrines, and advocate them when you weren't on the clock. You just wouldn't paid to teach that evil.
'Evil.' See? This is basically a big pushback by white supremacy.
Where you define "white supremacy" as whites not accepting being legally discriminated against.
Where I define white supremacy as white people being mad when not being rightfully and properly treated as the heroes of the story of the US.
Can't tell the kids they have a privileged status which is "necessarily determined" by their being black, white, asian, etc. Horrible!
Can't tell the kids it's OK to discriminate based on race. Appalling!
Quit deflecting,
I took some certainly not uncommon opinions above, that you want to ban.
That’s messed up.
I ain’t deflecting shit.
It is shameful to propagandize to schoolchildren in favor of race discrimination. It is certainly shameful to engage in it.
Yes, this applies even if the targets of the discrimination are whites and asians.
Klansmen have free speech, therefore by Sarcastrian principles they could get jobs as Florida schoolteachers and preach the virtues of white supremacy.
Truly disgusting and shameful.
See? It's all about the white supremacy.
And there we have it, wrongthink, as judged by you. Which covers support for current policies you don’t like,
How authoritarian can you get?
I don't want a Klansman to become a teacher and get paid to teach schoolchildren the wonders of white supremacy.
Would you agree this shouldn't be allowed to happen?
Congratulations, you're an "authoritarian" by your own definition.
So the question is what *other* forms of racism should be excluded from being taught at a government-run school by government employees while on the clock?
You happen to think discrimination against whites and asians is OK. Very well, then, make the case for that, but your claim to the antiauthoritarian high ground has been lost - in fact, you never had it.
see above
The elephant in the room everybody seems to want to avoid is how much universities have changed what is being taught. Even way back in the 1960s when I was a university student I could not picture almost all of my profs saying anything that would upset anyone. Of course I was a math major with a specialty in topology so most folks would not understand what they were saying anyway. While it is easy to say there are not many want ads for a topologist the amount of calculus required to take topology courses means students taking those classes could qualify for lots of jobs, including teaching high school math. There was some anti war stuff that upset some people but that was about it.
But now there are classes with course titles that seem to bait others to complain. Things like studying illegal alien transgenders supporting themselves as sex workers (don't laugh there really are classes about that) seem designed to invite complaints from some peeps; especially when the job market for university grads is as bad as it is now.
The original justification for government support for universities was to create a more productive work force. At some point this started to change and now a lot of students finishing their university studies will not be able to function at even menial jobs any better than when they started university studies.
Bottom line is one analysis of DeSantis' (and others) actions are not to stifle academic freedom but to alter what courses are taught in universities. Comparing STEM courses to trade schools is a fool's errand, they are totally different things. Especially when education is on the tax payers dime the results need to be something tax payers are happy with.
"The original justification for government support for universities was to create a more productive work force."
I would argue that the justification for universities was to create a more educated and knowledgeable work force (and populace)..
"now a lot of students finishing their university studies will not be able to function at even menial jobs any better than when they started university studies."
But a university education isn't supposed to teach you how to do menial jobs. It is supposed to teach you the skills and knowledge to be a white-collar worker, with an emphasis on management or specialized roles. Whether it's business, economics, pre-med, STEM, or some other specialist field (like preparing for law school?), this is the poont of going to college.
"Bottom line is one analysis of DeSantis’ (and others) actions are not to stifle academic freedom but to alter what courses are taught in universities."
The market will dictate the courses taught in universities. Command economies don't work, those based on partisan politics are worse.
There are plenty of conservative colleges and universities. If you want one, go to Liberty or Grand Canyon or Ouachita Baptist. If you don't want a "liberal" college education, don't go to a liberal college.
Especially when education is on the tax payers dime the results need to be something tax payers are happy with.
That is about as thoroughly pro-majoritarian as an anti-rights assertion can get.
If academic freedom in higher education actually existed, this would be a cause for concern. But switching from under-the-covers social pressure censorship to transparent government censorship doesn't seem like that big a deal.
"I have a draft paper to be published by Wake Forest Law Review arguing that university-level classroom instruction should not be regarded as government speech for First Amendment purposes..."
In that case, university-level classroom instruction wouldn't be covered by the establishment clause, correct? Nothing wrong with teaching that the world was created 6000 years ago?
Mistaking curriculum for viewpoint to equate teaching slavery was a thing with creationism.
BTW, are there many laws against teaching creationism?
"Nothing wrong with teaching that the world was created 6000 years ago?"
In biology, archeology, or other science classes? Not if you don't mind getting laughed at.
In philosophy or history? Creationism was discussed in both when I was in college and I imagine it still is today. Not only is there nothing wrong with it in a relevant course, it is a good thing.
So long as you mention it in the job interview.
No leftist has made the case yet why the taxpayer should be forced to fund these indoctrination centers and why it is not predatory for these places to use predatory tactics to make 18 year olds go into 100K+ in debt to use their "services." I think that is telling....
“ why it is not predatory for these places to use predatory tactics”
You question begging tool.
Of course our loan system isn’t great, but you want to ignore reform, end insist on ending it because you don’t like schools.
Because you see life as the common folk and the elite. Except the common folk you love sure have a lot of fancy degrees when you look at them. Which is why you never do, only looking left and raging forever.
You have a lot of assumption built in there because all you have are straw man attacks. That is more telling than your actual failure to defend leftist indoctrination centers and their fraudulent behavior.
I know you, is the thing, Jimmy. Your comments are loud and proud.
So claiming shock at what I said about you rings pretty hollow.
You don't know anything, about me or anything else. You are just a slightly more sophisticated version of AK. Just instead of copying and pasting the same stale content you gaslight and set up strawmen.
And again, the fact you don't actually challenge anything I say is the most telling aspect here. The left is just using its raw power now to maintain institutions. That is how you know it is getting close to the end stages.
Universities should be tax-payer funded to allow students from poorer backgrounds access to higher education and to promote academic and scientific inquiry not constrained or dictated by the demands of profits or shareholders.
The debt situation implies that they're not being funded enough, or that there is a predatory loan system in place that needs to be burned to the ground.
No, the debt situation does not imply that universities need more funding.
It implies that universities should be restructured. Then, they can and should start offering classes at 1/10th the price. They can do it online. Or rent space in a strip mall.
They just need to empty out the offices that function as extensions of the DNC and that will cut costs of the university systems by around 50%.
If you want to hone your political hatchet, you can do so on Soro's dime not the taxpayer's.
They can do that already. Tomorrow, if they wanted to. If it is a better system and it gained their graduates a benefit in their careers, it would be excellent.
But as for-profit colleges and other diploma mills have shown, just because someone says their students are educated doesn't make it true.
There's a reason why Cal Berkeley grads are better regarded than University of Florida grads. That's because over time, some schools have turned out a large number of high-performing graduates and others have not. And employers know that and put more value on a Berkeley degree than a Florida degree. If you don't like it, take it up with employers.
I agree that subsidizing college loans just makes colleges charge more. That is the nature of subsidies. If a college knows that the average student can afford $10,000 and that they can't get a loan or other aid, they'll charge $10,000. If they know the average student can get a grant for $5,000, they'll charge $15,000. If they know that the average student can also get (and is willing to take out) a $10,000 loan, they'll charge $25,000. Subsidies just raise the price for everyone, they don't make things more affordable.
And additional funding for universities won't lower tuition, either. There is no way to structure it so that funding goes to lowering everyone's tuition because money is fungible. The closest you can come is an untouchable scholarship fund, but that won't help everyone.
Your best bet is to plan ahead. Either live in a state like California that has an excellent state system (providing a superior education at in-state prices), get into an elite university like Princeton, MIT, Stanford, etc., (whose diploma has universal appeal and as a value proposition gives you the best bang for your buck, although it takes a lot of bucks), get a diploma from a state college in the state where your desired employer is based, for example the University of Oregon for Nike (lower tuition with an enhanced value placed on home state college graduates by specific employers), or find a college that has a reciprocal agreement with a nearby community college and take as many classes as possible at the community college before transferring to the four-year college for the prestige of their diploma.
College has value, just not for everyone and not always commensurate with the cost. Although if you get into Princeton and your parents make $100,000 or less, it becomes a no-brainer since there will be no cost starting in 2023. No joke.
Judge Walker hates Gov. DeSantis and the Florida legislature and loves to rule against them in often extravagant language, which then gets overturned by the 11th Circuit. His ruling on Florida’s voting law was met with great skepticism in oral arguments just the other day. He enjoined the business part of HB 7, but not the part having to do with education because I suspect he knows that the 11th circuit will uphold at least the K-12 portion of it. Is a faculty member at a publicly funded university a government employee? I expect Walker to say no, but as for the 11th circuit, or the Supremes, I don’t know.. The state is appealing his enjoining the business part of the law, arguing that if a business can require employeers to take CRT training that says that white people are racist, it can also require you to take training saying the Black people are lazy. Free speech.
I do not support the bill but your objection is from Deep Space.
I remember being in a Catholic grad school class and the teacher said "I do not want anyone in this class who does not believe in Evolution" well, I stayed because I pay his salary !!
Until you libertarians look at who is the boss and who is the employee you will be confused. Governemtn intervention insulates all bad parties and exposes all the good ones.
Let the parents who pay the bills decide.