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Fifth Circuit Rejects First Amendment Challenge to Texas Social Media Common Carrier Law
Just released, Netchoice v. Paxton; I'm traveling and likely won't have time to digest the 113 pages of opinions for a while, but here's the opening from Judge Andrew Oldham's opinion, which is a majority on most points:
A Texas statute named House Bill 20 generally prohibits large social media platforms from censoring speech based on the viewpoint of its speaker. The platforms urge us to hold that the statute is facially unconstitutional and hence cannot be applied to anyone at any time and under any circumstances.
In urging such sweeping relief, the platforms offer a rather odd inversion of the First Amendment. That Amendment, of course, protects every person's right to "the freedom of speech." But the platforms argue that buried somewhere in the person's enumerated right to free speech lies a corporation's unenumerated right to muzzle speech.
The implications of the platforms' argument are staggering. On the platforms' view, email providers, mobile phone companies, and banks could cancel the accounts of anyone who sends an email, makes a phone call, or spends money in support of a disfavored political party, candidate, or business. What's worse, the platforms argue that a business can acquire a dominant market position by holding itself out as open to everyone—as Twitter did in championing itself as "the free speech wing of the free speech party." Then, having cemented itself as the monopolist of "the modern public square," Packingham v. North Carolina (2017), Twitter unapologetically argues that it could turn around and ban all pro-LGBT speech for no other reason than its employees want to pick on members of that community, Oral Arg. at 22:39–22:52.
Today we reject the idea that corporations have a freewheeling First Amendment right to censor what people say. Because the district court held otherwise, we reverse its injunction and remand for further proceedings.
Judge Edith Jones joined this in large part; an excerpt:
Functioning as conduits for both makers and recipients of speech, the platforms' businesses are closer analytically to the holdings of the Supreme Court in PruneYard and FAIR than to Miami Herald, Pacific Gas & Electric, and Hurley. It follows from the first two cases that in arbitrarily excluding from their platforms the makers of speech and preventing disfavored speech from reaching potential audiences ("censoring," in the comprehensive statutory term), they are not themselves "speaking" for First Amendment purposes….
Another way to look at this case, however, is through the Turner I decision, in which the Supreme Court held that cable TV companies are to some extent engaged in First Amendment-covered "speech" when, as they "operate" their systems, they determine which cable channels to host. Using intermediate scrutiny, the Court did not reject federal must-carry regulations requiring hosting of certain preferred channels. Instead, the Court distinguished both Pacific Gas & Electric and Miami Herald for three reasons. First, the must-carry regulations were content neutral. Second, they did not force cable operators to modify their own speech, nor were viewers likely to associate the mandatory hosted speech with that of the operators. And third, a cable operator's selection of channels controlled the flow of information into subscribers' households, and could "thus silence the voice of competing speakers with the mere flick of a switch." I find all of these points compellingly applicable to analyzing the regulations imposed on large social media platforms by the Texas statute before us.
Judge Leslie Southwick largely dissented; again, a short excerpt:
Yes, almost none of what others place on the Platforms is subject to any action by the companies that own them. The First Amendment, though, is what protects the curating, moderating, or whatever else we call the Platforms' interaction with what others are trying to say. We are in a new arena, a very extensive one, for speakers and for those who would moderate their speech. None of the precedents fit seamlessly. The majority appears assured of their approach; I am hesitant. The closest match I see is caselaw establishing the right of newspapers to control what they do and do not print, and that is the law that guides me until the Supreme Court gives us more….
When the Platforms curate their users' feeds, which are the behaviors prohibited in Section 7 of HB 20, they are exercising their editorial discretion. That is a type of First Amendment-protected activity recognized in Miami Herald, PG&E, Turner, and Hurley…. [T]here may be more than one type of First Amendment activity occurring by the same speaker when, for instance, an article is selected and printed in a newspaper—or, in our context, a tweet posted or video listed…. First Amendment protections attend the publishing process as well as the actual published content.
For my thoughts on this general subject, see Treating Social Media Platforms Like Common Carriers?
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Next the best bakery in the area will not be able to refuse services because they don't like the belief system of the client.
No cake for you!
I'm going after OANN for shadow banning me! Seems I don't like Trump and they.... well seem to sponsor him.
Did the bakery champion baking a cake for anyone and building it's business for 15 years?
Should read "building it's business on that concept for 15 years to the point it holds 85%+ of the market for 15 years".
You do raise a good point, but that is not a First Amendment point, but a contract and fraud point.
I have previously posted here that my preferred way of dealing with this issue is to require platforms to post their takedown criteria, in clear language, and if they deviate from that, they lose their Section 230 immunity.
Wouldn't they all just adopt something along the lines of
If you didn't recognize it, that appears in the posted Terms of Use here at Reason.
Because the law says they can't.
Bored didn't mention he would parallel that Texas clause in his proposed change to federal law.
If the bakery or OANN had an effective nationwide monopoly on baking or news you might have a point.
Such an effective monopoly that here you are, making whatever points you want, without any of the large platform's content moderation policies applying to you at all.
"Such an effective monopoly that here you are, making whatever points you want, without any of the large platform's content moderation policies applying to you at all."
Where it's seem by, what, 100 people?
As opposed to millions on Twitter / Facebook / Youtube?
Are you really as stupid as you're pretending to be?
Are you really so stupid as you think the Internet is just four big websites and the Reason comment section?
He is.
Are you really so stupid you're trying to pretend that the majority of social media interaction in the US does NOT take place on the companies being regulated by the Texas law?
Posts (as a generic term, be it a tweet, a TikTok, a comment on a Reason post, whatever) x # people who see said post == "total number of social media interactions"
When it comes to "ability to influence the public discussion", everyone who is NOT a moron understands that those companies are the game
Which is why you fascist scum bags are so desperate to censor postings there
1) I have no idea who you think has an "effective nationwide monopoly."
2) Miami Herald vs. Tornillo rejects the idea that having a monopoly is relevant to the 1A issue.
1: If you really have no idea, you need to stop calling OTHER people stupid, because you're clearly as dumb as a brick
2: The Miami Herald is legally responsible for everything they publish, including the content of letters to the editor
The Maimi Herald also faces the situation that every thing they publish means there's something else they can't publish, and that therefore forcing them to carrty an oppoing viewpoint decreases their speech.
Neither of those are true for the social media companies.
Which all non-morons realize
1) Which company are you claiming has a monopoly?
2) At the time the case was decided, yes. So what?
That also goes for the credit card companies and couriers who are trying to choke off gun stores.
The left's comparing of bakeries with UPS and with Twitter has always been disingenuous.
The bakery never said they wouldn't sell a cake, they said they wouldn't bake one special and design a custom decoration with someone else's message on it.
If you are suing OANN for not producing a show to your specs, I think you know how that would go.
No one is asking Twitter or FB to design custom pages for them, just let them use their platform like everyone else to craft their own message.
Bullshit. They're asking Twitter and FB to promote their message and include it on the sites' curated pages.
Bullshit, we're demanding that those fascist scum not censor us, not shadowban us, not kick off us for the "crime" of not being utter lunatics, and therefore understanding that only women can be pregnant, and all men have penises
Yes; I remember when my kids were three and had tantrums because they didn't get to play with other people's toys.
Yeah, that's what I said.
The ONLY bakery in an area might not be allowed to refuse you service.
But one of many bakeries should be able to.
Twitter is effectively the only site where you can do what Twitter users do.
Everyone who held that the 10th Circuit was wrong in 303 Creative is allowed to try to oppose this decision.
But if you hold that a State can forbid a baker or florist or cater eror web designer or wedding venue to refuse to have anything to do with a same sex "marriage", then a State can damn well force Twiter, Facebook, etc not to censor views they don't like.
Did you attack CO for the way they harass Masterpiece Cakeshop?
No?
Then you have no leg to stand on here
Put this on Short Circuit but since there is now a post about it:
Fifth Circuit just upheld Texas’s social media law. It’s a very dumb holding for many reasons, but I wanted to highlight this passage:
“The Platforms do not directly engage with any of these concerns. Instead, their primary contention—beginning on page 1 of their brief and repeated throughout and at oral argument—is that we should declare HB 20 facially invalid because it prohibits the Platforms from censoring “pro-Nazi speech, terrorist propaganda, [and] Holocaust denial[s].” Red Br. at 1.
Far from justifying pre-enforcement facial invalidation, the Platforms’ obsession with terrorists and Nazis proves the opposite. The Supreme Court has instructed that “[i]n determining whether a law is facially invalid,” we should avoid “speculat[ing] about ‘hypothetical’ or ‘imaginary’ cases.” Wash. State Grange, 552 U.S. at 449–50. Overbreadth doctrine has a “tendency . . . to summon forth an endless stream of fanciful hypotheticals,” and this case is no exception. United States v. Williams, 553 U.S. 285, 301 (2008). But it’s improper to exercise the Article III judicial power based on “hypothetical cases thus imagined.” Raines, 362 U.S. at 22; cf. Sineneng- Smith, 140 S. Ct. at 1585–86 (Thomas, J., concurring) (explaining the tension between overbreadth adjudication and the constitutional limits on judicial power).”
https://techfreedom.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/2022-09-16-Published-Opinion-dckt-.pdf
This isn’t fanciful. Here’s Jeffrey Goldberg exploring Nazi Twitter in 2016 before they got better at content moderation:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/welcome-to-nazi-twitter-ill-be-your-guide/486233/
Other well known Twitter users with demonstrated Nazi-sympathies include erstwhile right wing darling and Paul Nehlen and Unite the Right leader Jason Kessler. And let’s not forget that another social media site, GAB, was created in part due to the banning of Nazis from Twitter, is ran by an open antisemite, and was the platform of choice of Tree of Life shooter Robert Bowers. And that’s only some of the most overt examples.
So Oldham’s statement here is simply false. It’s either stunningly ignorant at best, or an outright lie at worst. But it’s interesting that the higher up the judicial pecking order you go, the less and less factual statements need to be backed up by anything either in the record or easily discovered in the real world.
Oh so people who aren't 100 per cent on board with the tranny pedophile cam-concealing rapists of twitter should be completely eliminated from the public square because Nazis?
Your schtick gets so old....
What the actual fuck are you talking about
Where the fuck have you been sticking your head?
Twitter isn't banning Nazis, they're banning people who say that men can't be pregnant, that if you have a penis you're a man and if you have a vagina you're a woman.
Can Texas stop them from imposing that censorship?
You say, no they can't because otherwise 1 message in a million will contain "Nazi propaganda" (I note you have no problem with that 1 message in a thousand pushing communist propaganda)
We say you're full of shit
That clear enough for you?
It’s not clear to me at all why you responded when you’re clearly having this conversation with yourself.
The rest of us understand Greg's answer perfectly well, even if you pretend not to because you don't have a good response.
Oh, I have a good response: as always, Greg is full of shit. Twitter bans Nazis, and that's what he's upset about.
Twitter bans Nazis, and that's what he's upset about.
So, David Nieporent believes that every TERF is a "Nazi"
Every parent who doesn't want their kids to have CRT racism forced on them? "Nazi"
Anyone who questions the 2020 election results the way Democrats questioned 2016, 2004, or 2000?
"Nazi!!11!"
Because David is so completely full of shit that he KNOWS he can't win an honest debate, and therefore demands that everyone who disagrees with him just be censored
Which isn't Nazi like at all
Every TERF might not be a Nazi, but they sure do have something in common. But it's interesting that there are essentially two modes of defnce of this thing, neither of which examine the actual ruling: CAKES CAKES CAKES and 'I wanna be transphobic.'
Hitler was a vegetarian. The Nazis were in favor of gun control.
So, according to Nige, every single vegetarian or vegan, and every single supporter of gun control, because "they sure do have something in common", should be treated like a Nazi, and censored.
There's one defense of this thing, and it's very simple:
No, you can't censor opposing points of view.
No, you can't say "saying those opinions causes me harm", and then shut them down.
You can simply get the f*ck over yourself, accept that everyone has the exact same right to speak out as you do, and that your inability to respond to someone's arguments is proof that your position is sh!t, NOT that the other person should be silenced
Losing the culture war to better Americans has made you cranky, delusional, disaffected, unhinged, and worthless, Greg J. Enjoy -- with your fellow right-wingers, including the Volokh Conspirators and Judges Oldham and Jones -- the remainder of your time on the wrong side of history, the vanquished side of the culture war, and the losing side at the modern American marketplace of ideas.
Until replacement occurs, you will have the Volokh Conspiracy as a place where you can and the other obsolete, bigoted clingers can whine and whimper, mutter and sputter, rail and flail about all of this damned progress. Ready-for-replacement bigots have rights, too!
If I were actually losing the culture war to any Americans, there would be no censorship needed.
You need the censorship because you're losing, and everyone sane understands that your positions are utter crap
I understood what he was saying but he was having the conversation with himself by imputing views to me I didn’t say.
You are pretending that the existence of some vanishingly small number of "Nazis" on Twitter justifies wholesale censorship of all views disliked by any Democrat in Congress, and / or any member of the Biden Admin.
Because if you weren't, you wouldn't be wanking about how the existence of those "Nazis!" validates Twitter's censorship
A private business does not need to "justify" or "validate" its moderation decisions. The presence of one Nazi, or one New York Jets fan, or one person who enjoys gardening justifies whatever "censorship" [sic] Twitter wants to impose.
All I did was point out Oldham’s statement was provably false
You had your one chance.
You blew it.
So you're showing up here to argue that views you don't like should be censored?
You are too stupid to understand this, but you're a Nazi.
No. I’m showing up here to point out that Oldham is factually incorrect calling Nazis on Twitter a “fanciful hypothetical”
The Atlantic article is about trolls, not Nazis. Oldham is correct.
The Atlantic article is literally about Twitter Nazis, it’s in the headline, in the body of the story, and it’s about people who share Nazi propaganda about Jews and glorify the Holocaust. And if you’re at the point where your “trolling” is simply to spread Nazi ideology, then I’d direct you to the Rule of Goats.
What % of posts on Twitter in 2016 were from "Nazis"?
Over or under 0.0001%?
Doesn’t matter
Right, it doesn't matter, because the censors want to eliminate all viewpoints that they do not like.
Bigots have rights, too -- but not the right to compel others to let them spew their right-wing racism, Heritage Foundation gay-bashing, Republican misogyny, Federalist Society xenophobia, and conservative Islamophobia, and virus-flouting belligerent ignorance at a privately curated forum.
Just ask Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland -- or, more directly, ask Eugene Volokh why he can ban Artie Ray for making fun of conservatives but Twitter can't exclude right-wing bigotry from its forum. Or ask Prof. Volokh why he can prohibit the use of the term "sl_ck-j_wed" to describe conservatives at his faux libertarian forum while Facebook can be required to permit racists to spew their ugliness at its forum.
Or just wait until replacement -- and the settled-but-not-quite-over culture war -- solves all of this.
Government control restricting what a private corporation can do with its electronic platforms is OK with you? It seems to me like you’re a paid troll sitting in a Russian agency somewhere.
When that private corporation is run by evil leftists who have an effective monopoly, yes, absolutely.
Leftists in Palo Alto and San Francisco should not be allowed to control the flow of communication throughout the real parts of America that aren't filled with worthless illegal Mexicans and joggers pooping on the street.
'To protect freedom of speech we have to burn freedom of speech to the ground.'
Pro tip: Twitter isn't the government. It can't "censor." It can only refuse to distribute someone else's speech because it finds that speech objectionable.
Twitter most certainly can (and does) censor. The difference between Twitter and the government is that when Twitter does it it’s not a violation of your civil rights.
On the other hand, when the government leans on Twitter to do it then it is a violation of your civil rights.
Either way, Twitter can censor.
Do you think a private bakery should have a right to not bake a cake for a marriage based on anal sex? If not, why not?
Oh, sure, bakeries should defintely issue detailed questionaires about the sexual practices of everyone they bake cakes for and only serve customer who engage of a limited number of approved positions, it's only right and proper.
Pro tips:
1: Miriam Webster:
Definition of censor
(Entry 1 of 2)
1 : a person who supervises conduct and morals: such as
a : an official who examines materials (such as publications or films) for objectionable matter
Not "a government official", but just an "official". Twitter etc et al have lots of officious officals who "supervise conduct and morals" on the platforms.
2: Are you really so pathetically ignorant you haven't heard about the Biden Admin forcing Social Media companies to censor Alex Berenson? If so, search for the following (Reason suppresses comments with links, because apparently supporting arguments with facts is a really bad thing to do):
Who is Alex Berenson? And why did the White House silence him?
Then perhaps you can stop lying about the gov't not being involved
Oh, wait, if you stopped lying you wouldn't have anything to say
If Reason of all people is suppressing your links, you just might be a Nazi.
The sad thing about this case -- and it comes through in the Fifth Circuit's pathetic decision -- is that it's really all about the right wanting to be liked. Well, sorry, you don't get to be transphobic and also have people like you. Forcing FB to carry your sick posts won't make people like you more. Really, they're doing you a favor.
"So Oldham’s statement here is simply false. It’s either stunningly ignorant at best, or an outright lie at worst."
I'll go for stunningly ignorant, but with the ignorance motivated by partisanship. It's like they didn't even bother to read the well reasoned district court decision that they just overturned. At least this time they gave their "reasoning", but I now understand why they were reluctant to publish the "most angrily incoherent First Amendment decision"* ever.
Anyway, as usual, Mike Masnick is the go to guy for this topic. Essential reading to understand the issues at stake.
https://www.techdirt.com/2022/09/16/5th-circuit-rewrites-a-century-of-1st-amendment-law-to-argue-internet-companies-have-no-right-to-moderate/
*Popehat, aka, Ken White.
If you have to make arguments about Nazis to justify censoring covid information, then you are the extremist. World War II has been over since 1945.
Okay that explains your comment above. You’re one of those stunningly obtuse people who think one can’t be a Nazi unless they are or were a member of the NSGWP as an organization as it existed until 1945. Apparently it doesn’t matter if you share their same beliefs, spread their propaganda, and join organizations modeled after them.
I see online comments about Nazis all the time, and none of it is about Nazis. Mostly, the term is used for name-calling. Sometimes it is used for trolling. Never is anyone actually advocating a Nazi ideology. Complaining about Nazis is like complaining about witches casting evil spells.
https://twitter.com/asfleischman/status/1571486373596766215?s=46&t=MpbnmPuz9pWue9bwzPvuMA
So some Jew is upset by a caricature. Do you want to ban caricatures? If so, then just say that, instead of claiming that this is about Nazis.
Ah. I see I was being charitable with “stunningly obtuse.” Fell into the trap Sartre warned about. My mistake.
The Christchurch mosque shootings were streamed (partially) on Facebook.
By your logic, Facebook is affiliated with the shooter.
Thanks, Prof. V, for the excerpts from the 3 opinions. All of them seem to promise intelligent, thoughtful responses to an important set of issues. I'm looking forward to reading your views about the opinions when you've had the opportunity to develop them.
Saying that the presence of Nazis online is a hypothetical is the sign of an intelligent and thoughtful opinion?
Saying that the mere presence of Nazis online justifies corporate censorship is the mentality of .. it has to be said ... a fascist.
I'm sure those big bad Nazis also talk on the telephone ... does that mean AT&T should be allowed to terminate their phone service?
Nazism, like communism and like the fascism promogulated by the Democrat Party, is protected speech. The counter to speech you don't agree with is supposed to be opposing speech, not censorship.
What does corporate censorship have to do with a hypernationalist reactionary movement that is obsessed with cultural and social decline and seeks to return the nation (typically ethnically defined) to a mythic and heroic past that never actually existed through authoritarian means and violence?
Was there a thought in there somewhere? Simply defining Nazism is not a response to my comment. Let's stipulate that lots of people dislike lots of political ideas ... and non-political ideas for that matter. It does not follow that we must therefore allow and support corporate censorship of certain of these ideas.
.. a hypernationalist reactionary movement that is obsessed with cultural and social decline and seeks to return the nation (typically ethnically defined) to a mythic and heroic past
Why are you dragging Israel and Zionism into this?
I was describing fascism in an effort to help you understand it so you wouldn’t compare it to corporate censorship or whatever
LawTalkingGuy, give some thought to whether L555 is a bot. Or, more surprising, it could be L555 actually is human, but somehow cannot pass the Turing Test.
Facebook and Twitter censorship is very much a reactionary movement obsessed with returning the nation to a past that never existed. If such ideas are dangerous, then it is good that the Texas law encourages the free flow of information.
Lol. Private content moderation by Twitter is actually seeking to return the nation to a heroic past is some galaxy brain shit.
You're using words you don't understand. Let me help: the first amendment protects speech against the government. That's the only thing it's "protected" from.
I did not have a chance to read this, but offhand the dissent seems correct. Part of the right to speak, is the right not to speak, and the right not to allow your resources to be used to support speech you don't agree with or object to.
That seems to have been lost in the YU case, which acc. to the NY Courts is now forced to support speech with is resources it finds objectionable.
Same for the internet platforms.
"Part of the right to speak, is the right not to speak, and the right not to allow your resources to be used to support speech you don't agree with or object to."
Do you also support a right for AT&T to deny service to David Duke and/or Rosa Parks? If not, what makes Twitter different?
If you don't think AT&T doesn't have the power to deny you service right now, try not paying your bill for a couple of months.
Denying you service for not paying your bill is not the same thing as denying you service for supporting the "wrong" political party. I'm sure you can grasp this if you try.
Nobody has had their service denied for supporting the wrong political party, why make up a dumb hypothetical? I'm sure you can come up with an actual scenario if you try.
Isn't this comment thread about an argument that social media companies should be able to deny service for supporting the Nazi party?
That's the stupidest possible response.
AT&T was granted monopoly status in exchange for a promise to provide universal service. That's one of the things that made it different than Twitter.
Part of the right to speak, is the right not to speak, and the right not to allow your resources to be used to support speech you don't agree with or object to.
Are you really a lawyer? There is long legal precedent for the state forcing "private" actors to "speak" in ways those actors do not wish to. The majority points out that once upon a time the telegraph companies also censored what their users could say .. until the government decided that such interference in the free flow of information was impermissible.
... forced to support speech with is resources it finds objectionable.
Who cares what they "find objectionable"? What sort of legal standard is that? I find it objectionable that my tax dollars (my resources) are used to support the "speech" of the current US regime. But I suspect you'd find it absurd if I argued that my sentiments rose to the level of a binding legal principle.
What makes the sentiments of some billionaire oligarchs running tech companies so very special?
The same legal standard that lets you exclude people from your living room when they say things you don't like.
It's their property.
Twitter isn't one's living room. And at any time, a Twitter user can close off any other user once his speech crosses your red line.
I suspect the real reason that socmedia services want the option to exclude a user or topic from the platform entirely, rather than allow other users to block that speech, is that objectionable users will leverage the platform to connect with each other such that they can act on their ideologies rather than just speak about them. They already have that protection.
Government interests in socmedia networks would be better served by allowing those conversations to continue so they are aware of potential criminal threats---if the speech is free, so is listening---rather than prompting the networks to shut these conversations down, as Zuckerberg himself admitted they tried to do, with a conversation that clearly was not contemplating nor promoting crime, but exposing it.
By shutting conversations down, the government shows that they value shaping the dialogue, which IMO they are not empowered to do, over identifying and investigating criminal acts. And in the case of the laptop from hell, the government's interest appeared to be limiting the exposure of information that cast the government's inaction in a negative light.
It isn't the government that is shutting down the conversations, it is the social media companies. The governments in these cases are trying to stop social media companies from shutting down the conversations.
As to the "real reason" these companies do anything, it's probably to maximize their profits.
"prompting the networks to shut these conversations down, as Zuckerberg himself admitted they tried to do,"
Please try to keep up.
There also proceeds a lawsuit seeking discovery from many Federal Executive agencies and social media companies who communicated routinely with each other about users and discussions the Federal government wanted to terminate. Two States' governments want to protect the discussions. Not the Fed.
The YU decision was purely procedural, no? They even get to re-do by actually following the proper procedure.
Incidentally, YU has responded by abolishing all student organizations for now.
By the way, I wonder what percentage of people who support YU also support Texas's insane law.
That's why I mentioned the YU case. It's the same principle, just the politics are reversed. If you take different sides in the two cases, you are likely motivated by politics than principle.
The underlying decision was not procedural, it enjoined the university on the merits. The procedural part was SCOTUS declining to stay the injunction.
Platforms, schmatforms. The (incidentally) corporate entities here under attack by this idiot court are publishers. They are specifically protected by the 1A guarantee of press freedom. Among the activities that provision guards is the power to choose at pleasure what to publish, and what not to publish.
The fifth circuit delivers a direct frontal attack on the First Amendment. As everyone understands, there is a motive behind the attack. Right wingers are aggrieved. They have time and again been rebuffed during attempted publication of lies and misinformation made up with an eye to undermine politically their left-wing opposition. The Fifth Circuit here rushes to the assistance of that right-wing partisan crusade.
Nobody who follows my commentary can suppose I am a supporter of the giant internet platforms, by the way. I have denounced them perhaps more than any other commenter on this blog. I have called repeatedly for unconditional repeal of Section 230—the legislative blunder which empowered their giantism and near-monopoly status in the business of selling advertising nationwide. There is desperate need of a different legal regime to govern publishing on the internet.
None of that means the situation can be improved by a legal attack on 1A press freedom, like this one endorsed by the Fifth Circuit. If it is upheld by the Supreme Court, the precedent this decision will set will prove impossible to contain. It will shortly be used to enable politically-motivated attacks on publishers of all kinds, not just internet platforms.
The case seems to be presented as a speech case rather than a press case. The "gatekeepers" seem to want to avoid being deemed to be newspapers. Why is that, you think?
Ghost — I am not privy to their litigation strategy. Emphasizing speech instead of publishing seems unwise—because it is contrary to the fact that they are publishers.
On the other hand, they may be trying to have it both ways. Perhaps they want to be some new modern entity protected by Section 230 when that suits them. But also want power to act as publishers, and decide at pleasure what opinions and allegations will appear alongside their customers' advertising—curating the audience to maximize revenue.
If they can carry that off, they get the best of everything, and everyone else gets screwed. I have been advocating against that for years, mostly at the cost of intemperate personal attacks from internet utopians. Those mostly don't know the first thing about any related subject except what they want personally out of the internet.
it is contrary to the fact that they are publishers.
They are not publishers. They have historically made a big deal of the fact that they are not publishers. They were made exempt by Congress from lawsuits for the content which they carry on the grounds that they are not publishers but common carriers.
Perhaps they want to be some new modern entity protected by Section 230 when that suits them.
But they ARE "some new modern entity protected by Section 230." Or a new modern entity protected by a very old legal concept, that of the common carrier. Which is precisely why they are not publisher's. And precisely why they decline to declare themselves publishers.
^Exactly. +10
Completely and utterly false. You have been sold a lie by a bunch of people who never read Section 230. The entire point of Section 230 was to eliminate their liability without trying to force them to be "common carriers."
I am pretty confident that if social media platforms were already common carriers then Prof. Volokh would not have worked so assiduously on the pros and cons of changing the law to treat them as if they were common carriers.
The common law concept of "common carrier for hire" described entities that undertake to move members of the public or their goods for a fee, and are granted some legal protections and obligations in return for that undertaking. 47 U.S.C. §153(11) extends that definition to communications services, with an explicit exclusion of radio broadcasting. Two arguments right there why Twitter isn't naturally a communications common carrier: Users don't pay for the service, and Internet broadcasting is a reasonable extension of radio broadcasting.
And as DMN points out they aren't common carriers by action of §230 either, its objective was to give providers of "interactive computer services" some common carrier-style protections without the obligations that full common carrier status would entail.
You aren't very smart. But then neither is Judge Oldham, so I guess you're in good company.
The dissent got it right. Section 230 acknowledges that companies like those here are publishers, but they should be treated as though they're not publishers for purposes of liability. If they weren't publishers, Congress would've just said that. But since they are publishers, section 230 instructs courts to treat them in some cases "as if" they weren't.
The whole point of which was to find a middle ground between traditional publishing and common carriers, so that they could scale along with the internet but still be allowed to "censor" aka moderate.
Texas is trying to force them to be common carriers. If they're successful, it won't end well. If the Internet has taught us anything it's that unmoderated online discussions are less worthy of First Amendment protection than even the most depraved of all porn.
There is no "speech case rather than a press case." The notion that there's a distinction is a Lathrop invention.
Well, me and the 1A. That enumerates them separately. And of course the precedents are different. But other than that, good point.
If Section 230 were repealed, giant internet platforms would be the only entities that could afford to defend against the onslaught of lawsuits. Smaller platforms would be sued out of existence.
Bozak — Nonsense. Prior to Section 230, smaller publishers were a much larger part of the mix than they are now, even though they were fully liable. Section 230 has been a major cause of their decline.
Prior to 230, there was no modern Internet. Google didn't exist. Mark Zuckerberg was still in elementary school. The majority of online content was still in walled gardens like AOL, Compuserve and Prodigy.
Also, prior to Stratton Oakmont v Prodigy (1995) the only real precedent (Cubby v Compuserve) was that platforms were not liable for user-generated content. So no, the pre-Section 230 Internet did not come about in a regime of platform liability for user content.
jb — Your comment is riddled with self-contradictions. To say pre-Section 230 internet communication took place in walled gardens is to support my point, not yours. To say that Section 230 was passed to transform the internet from a previous condition in which liability might attach to internet publishing is to support my point, not yours.
The crux of the confusion is the fantasy that Congress when it passed Section 230 had power to overturn both the facts of what constitutes publishing, and the constitutional guarantee of press freedom. Congress had no such power, and failed in both attempts. Thus, Section 230 stands now as a continuing and mightily consequential source of confusion and trouble. Make it a point to notice, no one is happy with today's internet publishing status quo which Section 230 delivered, except the giantistic social media companies.
Those are what right wingers on this blog, and in the Fifth Circuit, are complaining about. If right wingers had a lick of sense, they would try to kick the utopian urge to somehow make a misbegotten paradox work for them, and instead back repeal of Section 230. But of course the sense required involves insight into what activities constitute publishing, and how they work, and almost everyone knows nothing about that, and concludes instead that the only thing which matters is their personal preferences about what they can do on the internet—which tend toward a reprise of the old Pinky and the Brain tag line. They insanely suppose the internet can empower them, "To Rule the World."
You are worse than Brett Bellmore. You know nothing about the subject and yet think you're smart. That you're a washed up ex-newspaper publisher gives you negative insight on these issues (just like it does on copyright and everything else.) Repealing 230 would lead to exactly the opposite outcome of what the right wingers want.
Nieporent — Sure, to the extent that what right wingers want is a utopian fantasy, purportedly (but impossibly) promised by Section 230, what I advocate would put an end to that fantasy.
But maybe what the right wingers want is reliable access to publish their opinions on the internet. If you take them at their word, that is what they want. There is another way to deliver that, one which we already know will work, because it did work for many decades.
Start with unconditional repeal Section 230. Passage of Section 230 is what threw the old system out of kilter.
Then adjust public policy to replace the few giantistic social media giants with many thousands of profuse and diverse private publishers. Let that panoply supply the need for antagonistic contests among contenders in the marketplace of ideas.
That is the only method yet proved to deliver press freedom, and to protect it long term from political pressures to censor the publishers, whether by suppressing content, or by forcing it.
You have it backwards. Repealing Section 230 would open every single internet entity with any sort of comments section with any sort of moderation up to liability. That's exactly what Stratton Oakmont v Prodigy held- that by moderating its forums, Prodigy was taking over liability from the original posters. The result would be that no one other than very large platforms could afford the deluge of lawsuits or alternatively the incredible burden of moderation. That's exactly what Section 230 was passed to avoid- it was to allow platforms to publish comments to their sites, with the moderation that would keep people willing to use those sites, without being sued by everyone upset at content that appeared. Repealing Section 230 takes the little gardening forum or legal blog and makes it liable for any idiot killing their plant or testing the bounds of safe police interaction, so in turn the little gardening forum or libertarian legal blog gets shuts down.
JJJSSS — Having run in succession multiple, fully liable small publications, I know exactly what I am talking about. Every contribution to those publications had to be reviewed for libel risk. It was not difficult to do. It would not be difficult to do for this blog. It is not difficult for the New York Times, which reviews and publishes multiples more comments daily than this blog does.
What you overlook, or maybe do not understand, is that libel risk attaches only to allegations of fact. Internet commentary is overwhelmingly fact free. It consists almost entirely of opinions, which may be published without concern except in narrow cases which any literate person can be trained to recognize.
Most factual allegations, of course, are not potentially libelous. No liability can attach to a mistaken factual-seeming assertion about the future climate for instance. The tiny fraction of comments which do assert potentially libelous facts are easy to deal with. You discard them without further research. Or if you feel they are worth the effort—which almost none will be—you research them independently before publishing.
You seem to mistake the contours of libel law, and what consequences can generate liability. The idiot testing the bounds of safe police interaction is none of any publication's responsibility.
During years of publishing experience I never once encountered a would-be contribution which needed a legal consultation about whether or not to publish. Ambiguities can always be resolved on the side of safety, by not publishing. Because I ran one publication as an investigative journal, I was threatened with libel suits from time to time. None were ever filed. After hostile complainers consulted lawyers, they all backed away. I had no formal legal training. I got a couple of general briefings from a good libel attorney, and took it from there. One simple rule sufficed. Do not publish potentially damaging assertions of fact which you do not have evidence to support in court, without need of anyone else's cooperation. It becomes an amazingly quick and simple process if you do that.
The New York Times is a billion dollar business. Reason Magazine is not.
Wrong. As always. The libel risk is the risk of being sued, not merely the risk of losing.
As always, nobody cares about your experience running a glorified newsletter that nobody read in nowheresville USA.
But maybe what the right wingers want is reliable access to publish their opinions on the internet.
This isn't what they want. This already exists. There are lots of unmoderated venues on the Internet. Just, nobody dares go there because they suck in the obvious ways.
They also don't want to post to "small" publishers, which also already exist.
They want to publish to somewhere that's large, curated, and will accept their vile content. Obviously those three things can't exist together.
And this is where we arrive at what they really want: to be broadly liked by and relevant to American culture. Sorry but that ship has sailed. Railing against FB and Twitter won't bring it back.
I happen to think the court is deciding the wrong issue. The issue is much broader than the narrow issue of just content. The appropriate issue (solely imo) should be defining the role of the internet platform, a definition I believe defies a singular category.
While a for-profit corporation (Twitter,
Facebook) may own the platform the supreme court has already ruled that does not cloak the owner with absolute power of censorship. Indeed, to the contrary the court has ruled that if the owner acts on behalf of the state to any reasonable extent the owner is thereafter constrained to operate pursuant to and enforce all provisions of the constitution and, explicitly, the first amendment. Marsh v. Alabama (banning censorship of printed material). Facebook, Twitter and a host of other tech giants have engaged in this exact manner with various agencies of our government. Trump's section 230 lawsuits address this precise issue.
The (incidentally) corporate entities here under attack by this idiot court are publishers.
They are not, and you saying they are does not magically make them such. They are mediums of communication, similar to radio, the telephone, and the telegraph. They do not "publish" anything, any more than providing a free email service means that Google is "publishing' your emails.
The Fifth Circuit here rushes to the assistance of that right-wing partisan crusade.
I read the courts opinion, and it simply states the legal precedents ... which are overwhelmingly against the tech giants position. If you managed to see a "partisan crusade" then your own partisanship is blinding you.
None of that means the situation can be improved by a legal attack on 1A press freedom
Twitter and Facebook are not the press. They are analogous to the telegraph companies of the late 19th century which abused their position until the state compelled the to stop discriminating among their users.
They are mediums of communication, similar to radio, the telephone, and the telegraph.
There is your confusion, compactly presented in one sentence. The telephone and telegraph are not publishers. Radio broadcasters are publishers, and have been since the earliest days of commercial radio.
Because you have no idea what a publisher is, or what activities define what it does, you should just stop with your ipse dixits on this topic.
Unfortunately, you don't understand what publishers are either. With respect to users, Twitter and Facebook are distributors, not publishers. That still makes this decision egregiously wrong, of course; Barnes & Noble cannot be compelled by the government to sell books that it finds objectionable.
Nieporent, when you say, "With respect to users," who do you mean. Do you refer to advertisers, consumers of content, creators of content, others? Who?
Also, do you mean to privilege, "users," categorically, as some kind of exclusive field mark to categorize a publisher? If so, why is that a better method than comparison of the activities of the business in question to the activities of an acknowledged publisher?
I mean who normal sane people mean by users, rather than some weird definition you made up in your head. I have an account on Twitter. (Or Facebook, whatever.) I post a tweet there. I am using Twitter. Hence I am a user of Twitter. There are precisely zero people who are confused by this terminology.
I wrote what I did in order to distinguish content originated by users from content originated by Twitter itself. If Twitter originates content, it is not acting as a distributor of that content; it is acting as a publisher of it.
There are precisely zero people who are confused by this terminology.
Wrong! There is precisely one person.
So what you're saying is that freedom of speech has a right-wing bias?
I believe Bush stole the 2000 election and then lied us into a war all the while selling us out to China…but in 2003 we protested in a civil manner and got involved in politics to beat Bush at the ballot box which paid off in 2006 and 2008. The problem with Trump supporters is that they are ignoramuses that apparently got involved in politics in 2015 and don’t understand how to engage in politics and believe only Trump can solve whatever problems they have. Republicans in 2007 literally believed Bush was Batman…I think Trump supporters will be just as embarrassed by their beliefs in 10 years as Bush supporters are today. 😉
Then that makes you an election denier and disqualifies you from the "main stream". Please cancel yourself. That is all.
First Amendment protections attend the publishing process as well as the actual published content.
Exactly right. With the further observation that 1A Press Freedom, and 1A Speech Freedom are not the same right. Press freedom is largely about protecting the publishing process. Speech freedom is largely about protecting speech content. Both classes of protection also come with characteristic limitations.
Those different rights are sometimes in tension. Advocates for unfettered speech freedom—Eugene Volokh seems to be among them—tend to try to resolve that tension by hostile attacks on press freedom. That is an unwise approach. It presumes mistakenly that if there are two rights in tension, they must protect separate groups of rights-holders. That thinking tends quickly toward a zero-sum outcome for particular disputes. There is no need to think that way.
The right approach is to assign each set of rights the legal protections needed to optimize them. Then resolve any tensions with the insight that everyone is free to practice all the activities protected by either right, to choose accordingly, and to exercise either right separately at different times.
Happily, both rights can also reinforce each other, and usually do. Nothing—absolutely nothing—has been as great a force multiplier for speech freedom as press freedom has been. It takes a foolish court indeed to ignore that critical fact of history.
So do social media companies have no right to limit the content users post, under this court's view? Must everywhere be another 4chan?
What's wrong with 4chan?
There are some very odd "libertarians" on this site.
Nothing wrong with it.
But I wouldn’t want it every comments section.
It's a cesspool.
No libertarian thinks the government has any right to tell a private business what speech it must carry.
Twitter is a already a cesspool under active management by “moderators”. It’s just that the toxic opinions held by the moderators are allowed to be seen.
Correct. But most libertarians are not willing to engage in a suicide pact. If Masterpiece Bakeshop has to make a cake for two men who think it's appropriate to penetrate each other's colons, then Twitter should be forced to allow conservative dissent.
There are two kinds of libertarians: the ones who hold principled libertarian views that aren't contingent on what other people do, and the ones who aren't libertarians.
Ahh yes so conservatives should allow their principles to be used against them as weapons by people who don't even pretend to value liberty.
You don't have any principles to be used against you. I know this is hard for the MAGA right to understand, but a principle that is abandoned when it is inconvenient for one's goals isn't a principle at all.
If you had principles you'd stand by them, instead of ditching them when convenient.
The child porn. That's one thing that was wrong with 4chan.
It seems to me that the supremes already established the necessary precedent to easily dispose of this matter, and }230. See, Marsh v. Alabama.
How about Pruneyard though?
Seems it could go either way.
There's no way SCOTUS follows the Fifth Circuit's strange diatribe. They're smart enough to see where it leads: first the unwinding of Section 230, and then the substitution of the government's algorithms for Facebook's and Twitter's.
On the second point, just imagine what happens next. Notably, the opinion does not rely on end users' First Amendment rights here. Facebook and Twitter are allowed under the First Amendment to censor. But the opinion says that Facebook and Twitter also have no First Amendment rights. Suddenly, the court has created a zone of speech where the First Amendment applies to no one.
The Texas bill includes some carve-outs for viewpoints that can be censored. The opinion tries to sweep this under the rug, claiming that none of the categories have First Amendment protection anyway, although that's clearly false. What if Twitter censors someone under one of the carve-outs? Who does the person sue to vindicate their First Amendment rights? Suing Twitter doesn't work because Twitter's not bound by the First Amendment and they're following the law. Suing the government doesn't work either, because the government isn't the one doing the censoring.
Imagine Congress passing a similar law, but with different carve-outs, such as for medical misinformation. According to this opinion, the law would be constitutional.
As people's feeds start filling up with Nazi propaganda and other messages that used to be filtered out, states like Texas will come under pressure to allow censorship of additional categories, including explicitly political ones like white supremacy. Suddenly the government is regulating the content of huge amounts of speech, having found a loophole in the First Amendment.
So no, SCOTUS will nip this in the bud.
If only Twitter were a company town, that would be relevant.
Online, it is a company town.
Then why not take an anti-trust approach? This is just a way of protecting conservative speech that in the modern context is hateful, agressive, trollish, dis-and-mis-information dependant and which will require, in the name of freedom of speech, the supression of anything labeled 'woke' or 'CRT' or LGTBQ-related. Since current conservative thought also holds that demonic liberals are an existential threat to western civilisation, they will have to be sileneced too, in the name of freedom.
Word soup. Twitter does not exercise any of the functions traditionally reserved exclusively to the state.
I think the court actually got this one right, and described their reasoning well in the ruling.
The idea that a private entity has a First Amendment right to censor is so absurd as to barely merit rebuttal. It turns the First Amendment on its head and is antithetical to the important rights it seeks to protect. It is akin to the argument that the First Amendment gives a private entity the right not to hire black employees or serve black customers, an argument the courts disposed of long ago.
In Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins (1980), the Supreme Court held that a state could require a shopping center to allow individuals to set up a table to seek signatures for a petition. In Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. v. FCC (1997), the Court held the government could require cable systems to carry local stations. In Rumsfeld v. FAIR (2006), the Court held the government could force universities to allow military recruiters on campus. All three cases stand for the proposition that the government can require private entities to host speech they do not want to, and all three cases involved much more substantial burdens than allotting an infinitesimal amount of cyberspace.
And, finally, a court gets Section 230 right, addressing an absurdity many have long pointed out. If John Doe posts something on Twitter, is the content if that Tweet attributable to Doe or to Twitter? Twitter wants it both ways. When it comes to the First Amendment, Twitter says it is their speech to erase or edit as they please. But when it comes to publisher liability, the speech is only John Doe's, and Twitter bears no responsibility for it. It wants it both ways, but is not entitled to have it both ways.
If John Doe posts something on Twitter, is the content of that Tweet attributable to Doe or to Twitter?
F.D. Wolf — By using, "posts," you have miscast the question. The correct verb is, "publishes." John Doe in your example is an author, or a contributor. Twitter is a publisher. We know that, because it is Twitter which has assembled the audience, curated the audience to make it attractive to would-be advertisers, provided the means to communicate with the audience, and monetized those activities—all of which are defining characteristics of a publisher, and none of which are practiced by John Doe.
From there, the conventional liability analysis, absolutely correctly reasoned, was that because the publication of Doe's authored content was a joint activity, the two collaborators must be jointly liable.
Of course Section 230 discarded the conventional analysis. Congress was well-intentioned, but abysmally out of touch with the activities which Section 230 purports to regulate. So congress made a highly consequential mess, nobody is happy with the result except a few giant social media companies, and it is very hard to get consensus about what to do to fix it, because almost no one understands why what I just explained to you is the key to figuring out the solution.
"And, finally, a court gets Section 230 right, addressing an absurdity many have long pointed out. If John Doe posts something on Twitter, is the content if that Tweet attributable to Doe or to Twitter? Twitter wants it both ways. When it comes to the First Amendment, Twitter says it is their speech to erase or edit as they please. But when it comes to publisher liability, the speech is only John Doe's, and Twitter bears no responsibility for it. It wants it both ways, but is not entitled to have it both ways."
That is literally the entire point of Section 230(c)(2): that platforms don't become the responsible for user-generated content by virtue of taking down some of that content. You can agree that's good policy or not, but it's unambiguous what it says.
I do not agree that was "literally the entire point of Section 230". I believe the point was to make clear that modest content moderation (of the type spelled out in the statute) was not the equivalent of broad editorial discretion that would transform a web platform into a publisher, and thus liable for the content of the speech as a traditional publisher would be. A statute should not have been necessary to clarify this, but was made in direct response to one bad, outlier court decision, Stratton Oakmont, Inc. v. Prodigy Services Co., (N.Y. Sup. Ct. 1995).
I believe it has been the courts, not Congress, who have given a modest, narrow statute a broad construction it was never intended to have. I do not believe it was intended, as Steve Lathrop put it, to "discard[] the conventional analysis" of traditional publication law.
I agree that the courts may be reading Section 230 too broadly in some cases, but it is very definitely the entire point of the section that platforms can both choose to remove some of the content and not be responsible for the rest, as you now seem to acknowledge.
I believe the point was to make clear that modest content moderation (of the type spelled out in the statute) was not the equivalent of broad editorial discretion that would transform a web platform into a publisher, and thus liable for the content of the speech as a traditional publisher would be.
What that overlooks is that editorial control is only a contributing factor, and not even the most important factor, to define what a publisher contributes to liability. Other publishing activities, such as assembling the audience, curating the audience, providing the means to communicate with the audience, and monetizing the publishing process, cannot be performed by a mere contributor.
Taken together, those publishing activities—the practice of which largely defines who is and is not a publisher—are the factors which most empower the damage which joint liability was designed to remedy. Nothing about Section 230, and nothing inherent in the internet, have changed at all the relevance of those publishers' contributions. On the positive side they continue to create a force multiplier for speech freedom; on the negative side they continue to deliver a proportionate damage multiplier for libel. Nobody who understands publishing in a practical way supposes that any of that can be changed even a little by legal decree.
Attempts to sort out internet law, or questions about Section 230, will thus remain ineffectual until they explicitly take account of those factors which as matters of fact define publishing activities. Ignoring that reality is what makes the present debate so consistently utopian, and so consistently futile.
It was precisely so intended. You can believe hundreds of judges all misinterpreted the law — despite the fact that the plain text says exactly what you claim it wasn't intended to say — but that just makes you look like a fool. Though that puts you level with 2 rogue judges from the 5th circuit.
The idea that a private entity declining to disseminate someone else's speech is "censoring" is so absurd as to barely merit rebuttal.
The First Amendment applies to the government, not to "private entities." The right it protects is to be free from government compulsion to stay silent or to speak.
Since neither hiring employees nor serving customers is speech, your attempted analogy is nonsensical.
FAIR was not about hosting speech. Pruneyard was wrong, and is much narrower than you pretend. Turner was also wrong, but was decided as though it were a pro-economic competition case rather than a speech case.
Not only did the 5th circuit not get Section 230 right, but it failed to address Section 230 in the first place, claiming that the plaintiffs had "waived" those arguments.
The entire purpose of Section 230 is to entitle them to have it (as you call it) both ways. That's the whole reason Congress passed the law.
Both, of course. Doe, because he published the Tweet, and Twitter, because it distributed the Tweet.
So you favor censorship by the dominant internet providers, because you believe that the applicable Supreme Court free speech precedents are wrong.
I do believe those two cases are wrong, but I believe that those aren't the applicable Supreme Court precedents anyway. I believe that Miami Herald and Wooley and PG&E are far more on point.
Oh, and of course Hurley.
Even if they are wrong, the 5th Circuit still had to follow them.
Obviously. But since neither was applicable, that is rather a red herring. The Fifth Circuit had to follow Miami Herald, but it chose not to.
So, death threats, rape threats, libelous falsehoods, relentless harassment - these are things that cannot be moderated on privately owned platforms because of the First Amendment?
Are credible death threats protected speech? Of course, they are not. However, if you've spent any time on Twitter, you'd know that casual death threats against certain people and groups are already A-OK with Twitter content moderators.
"Libelous" and "harassment" clearly describe illegal behavior already.
Ludicrous...
Why would they have to be 'credible' to be deleted, blocked, forbidden and banned? Why should a platform tolerate people slinging death threats around all the time? How does a platform even judge the threat's credibility? If the behaviour is illegal already, why can't platforms disallow it?
" We are in a new arena, a very extensive one, for speakers and for those who would moderate their speech. None of the precedents fit seamlessly"
Nonsense. Southwick basically ignores the majority opinion, which points out that similar communications technologies arose in the past, that they also were abused by their owners, and that Congress mandated that the telegraph companies, for example, could not discriminate among their users but had to function as a "common carrier".
These social media companies are, both by convention and by actual black letter law, "common carriers". Congress explicitly declared them such, and they would be common carriers under the accepted definition of the term even if Congress had not done so. Southwick is just a mouthpiece for corporate and state interests.
J555, your sense of analogy is screwy, because you have no notion what a publisher is, and thus can't understand who the "users" of an internet platform are. Here is a hint. Joe Keyboard is not an internet platform, "user." He is raw material. His attention is the product for sale, to the actual users, who are the advertisers. See how that is unlike the telegraph user?
Also, please show me the black letter law which makes social media companies common carriers. Before you answer, ask yourself, "Do I even know what a common carrier is?"
Joe Keyboard is not an internet platform, "user." He is raw material. His attention is the product for sale, to the actual users, who are the advertisers.
Ha ha. I'd just LOVE to see the platforms make THAT particular argument in a court of law!
They may in fact think that way of course. But they don't say it, and have in fact said the exact opposite. It's a criminal offense for a corporation to lie to the public and its customers in order to line its own pockets.
It's a criminal offense for a corporation to lie to the public and its customers in order to line its own pockets.
I'm not a lawyer. Are you? I don't think so.
I'm not a lawyer.
Get out! Even so, I'd expect any any reasonably intelligent and well-informed adult to be aware of the fact that false advertising by businesses is against the law. You can't publicly state that your business is one thing in order to make money, while its actual business model is something completely different.
I mean, sure you can. You can't commit fraud, but what you're describing is not fraud. Who do you think has been defrauded (if your premise were true, which of course it isn't). Twitter users get exactly what they bargained for. Twitter advertisers — the people giving Twitter money — get what they bargained for.
.. please show me the black letter law which makes social media companies common carriers.
Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. It grants them common carrier protection for any and all content which they carry.
This was done specifically to ensure that these companies would NOT be treated as publishers, so it's eye-rolling for these same companies to now show up in court arguing that they ARE publishers! Essentially they think the law should be whatever is most convenient for them at any particular instant. But I don't see why the courts should indulge them, and you certainly don't try to make any arguments.
J555, you have no idea what you are talking about.
Stephen Lathrop, your ignorance is exceeded only by your arrogance.
"Section 230 is a section of Title 47 of the United States Code enacted as part of the United States Communications Decency Act, that generally provides immunity for website platforms with respect to third-party content. At its core, Section 230(c)(1) provides immunity from liability for providers and users of an "interactive computer service" who publish information provided by third-party users"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230
J555, thanks for pointing me to the wikipedia article on Section 230. Thing is, the law itself hasn't changed. There have been various interpretations—almost all of them now look deficient. Years before Wikipedia was founded, I first read Section 230 and started cautioning people about what a mess it would make.
I don't claim to have understood the problem completely in the late 90s. There was a lot to think about. But my personal history as a small-time publisher gave me a head start on some of the issues.
It wasn't until about 2012 that I concluded Section 230 would bring on a crisis sparked by demands that government censor internet publishers, and began saying so online. Back then, and for years, pretty much everyone thought that was nonsense. The strongest internet fans were especially unsparing in their replies. But here we are.
who publish information provided by third-party users
Section 230 didn't transform publishers into common carriers. It said that despite being publishers, they should be treated as if they weren't, for liability purposes only. It would be weird to say that they should be treated "as if" they weren't if they already weren't.
Although I agree with David that we should call them "distributors."
100% false. You could try reading the statute; it can be found online. You'll see the absence of the phrase "common carrier." You'll see the absence of the concept "common carrier."
Common carriers carry people and things indiscriminately. The whole purpose of 230 was to encourage ICSs not to do that, but instead to moderate user speech.
Congress did not, and has no authority to, "explicitly declare" social media companies to be common carriers. They are not common carriers. Common carriers (1) carry people or things; and (2) hold themselves out as doing so indiscriminately. Social media companies do neither.
Neither Congress nor the state of Texas can abrogate the first amendment by declaring that a private business has lost the right to decide what speech it will distribute. Congress or the state of Texas can create a legal fiction that expands a private entity's rights, but it cannot create a legal fiction that removes a private entity's rights. "Common carrier" is a mere label, not a magic incantation that changes the nature of a business.
If Congress granted printed newspapers protection from liability for editorials do the newspapers lose their constitutional designation as a publisher as applied to editorials?
The majority opinion reads as somewhat excitable, and I predict that its style at least won't go down well with the primmer members of the SCOTUS conservative majority (Roberts, Kavanaugh, Barrett.)
As to the substance, the majority's reasoning on section 230 seemed somewhat weak - it didn't really dispose of the argument that the legislature can't constrain constitutional interpretation by statutory definition.
But the essential point seems quite finely balanced. Is censoring other people's speech on your platform your own speech or your own conduct, and does the question rest on context - eg whether the speech you wish to censor is actually blocking your own expression, or whether being obliged to carry someone else's speech is in the particular case liable to make people think you endorse it.
Is censoring other people's speech on your platform your own speech or your own conduct,
If you actually read what you imagine to be the "excitable" majority opinion, it points out that this question has come up in the past, and that the "common carrier" laws were used to address it. Specifically, in the early days of the telegraph the telegraph companies would abuse their position to restrict the flow of information for their own financial and/or political reasons. Congress passed a law prohibiting such conduct.
Was that law constitutional?
Note that the execrable majority opinion pulls a bait and switch by quickly segueing to discussions of Congress and states regulating trains and steamships and grain elevators. Whatever the constitutional merits of those regulations, they do not pose first amendment issues, and are thus irrelevant to the discussion.
"On the platforms' view, email providers, mobile phone companies, and banks could cancel the accounts of anyone who sends an email, makes a phone call, or spends money in support of a disfavored political party, candidate, or business."
In fact, we have already been seeing this activity happening in American and Canada the last few years. Banks are canceling the accounts of people whose politics they disapprove of .. including among others the accounts of the former President of the US.
This is literally fascism, and if this site were actually libertarian instead just pretending to be that way its writers would be bitterly condemning these actions.
It is not literally facism.
It literally is, but as a product of the American miseducation system you don't know the meanings of words.
Oh? Let's hear your meaning of the word, then.
Enlighten me, oh-knowledgeable-one, about the true definition of fascism.
Enlighten me, oh-knowledgeable-one, about the true definition of fascism.
I can help out here.
Whatever "fascism" may have meant under an originalist analysis, what it now means in modern parlance is :
{that of which, in the political realm, I disapprove strongly and consequently wish to abuse}
(for any value of "I")
Thus since J555 clearly disapproves of banks terminating services for political reasons, such termination must be an example of fascism.
From an originalist perspective the designation is more doubtful, though there is a colorable case for "fascism-adjacent" to the extent that termination of banking services on political grounds is :
(a) inspired by requests or exhortation (over or covert) from government actors
(b) part of a pattern of such exhortations across several large businesses, and
(c) in circumstances in which large businesses which decline to go along with such exhortations have a reasonable prospect of thereby becoming quite a bit smaller.
One of the textbook characteristics of "fascism" as originally understood is the co-option of large private businesses as part of the state system - where they are permitted to operate for their own profit, even on favored terms, if and only if they play ball with the state. Or as Mussolini put it, they are within the state, not outside it.
Mussolini's original "insight" on concluding that socialism simply couldn't work economically was that it made sense for the means of production to be privately owned, and operated, so long as large private businesses understood that they were part of the state. You may profit, if and so long as you do what the state requires of you.
The idea of a large private business operating independently of the fascist state would have struck him as just as absurd as the idea of a general commanding a division operating independently of the army as a whole. You give a general some leeway to decide how best to achieve his task, because - unlike the socialists - you realise that the central committee cannot micromanage every last detail. But the general is working for the state, not for himself, and if he declines to obey orders, you shoot him.
"(a) inspired by requests or exhortation (over or covert) from government actors" until such time that requests or exhortation are no longer necessary, because the entity has internalized the government actors' desires and even motives.
Um... you have a First Amendment right to agree with the government, too. It doesn't only work for dissenters.
I mean, that's not quite the platforms' view, but if it were, the libertarian answer would of course be, "Duh." Are you and the majority under the mistaken impression that these businesses can't do this?
Leftist blacklisters hardest hit.
FBI and Biden Administration speech infringement squads second hardest hit.
That’s the key for you, the law? Practicality? Implications?
Who cares so long as the people you are angry at in your head get hurt.
So do you think not being able to censor people constitutes an injury?
What's wrong with feeling satisfaction getting a win over people trying to censor you?
If people are trying to censor you, apparently they aren't doing a very good job. I can see your post just fine.
As long as you have one place you can post, you aren't being censored?
That's... not a strong argument. Everyone can talk to themselves, even in their jail cells.
It rather reminds me of the joke about the tyrant confronted by a free speech law: "You can say what you want. Anyone that listens will be shot."
Now do cake shops.
If anybody asked Twitter to make a special posting type just for them...you'd have an argument.
But nobody is, nobody did, and you do not.
That both gets the facts of the case wrong and the point of the comment I was replying to wrong.
Your reply to me was irrelevant babble.
All I was doing was pointing out that Randvek didn't understand what censorship was. Your response suggests that you don't, either.
If someone prevents you from publishing your (or part of your) content, then you are being censored. It is true if they are a government or a private corporation. It is true if they are the only publisher in the world, or the smallest of 100 billion publishers.
The post I was replying to was attempting to claim there was no censorship elsewhere, because Kazinski's posts at Reason were not censored. And that's just wrong.
You may not think that that's a strong argument, but apparently the courts do when it comes to cake shops.
Do... do you know what censorship is?
You are aware that censorship does not need to be global, or involve the government, right?
And that no court ever made the argument you and Sarcy claim?
They aren't censoring me, I don't use Twitter, FB, or Instagram, etc.
But I do find it troubling the public private partnership to try to choke off discussions on important topics of public debate, like Hunter's laptop, whether covid lockdowns and masking are effective, and climate change.
Now do "whether the Holocaust happened" and "Isn't it great that the Holocaust happened?"
(To be clear, the government has no business censoring any of these things, and I think it generally inappropriate for the government to be exhorting private businesses to moderate speech on those topics. Though legal, as long as the government is not coercing private businesses to do so.)
Assholes have been denying and celebrating the holocaust since, well, the end of the holocaust.
All of us should be denied freedom because a tiny minority says stupid stuff that most everyone ignores?
He doesn’t like people having freedom
No, I imagine he approves of people having freedom. This is about a balance of freedom between two entities.
Personal insults, particularly inaccurate ones, don’t really move the conversation anywhere.
"Freedom" is not the right to use guns to force someone else to allow you to use his property. You're not being "denied freedom" if Twitter deletes your posts.
How is twitter not allowing Holocaust denial or celebration on its platform denying anyone else a freedom? Without even a modicum of moderation, online platforms can turn into toxic cesspits. Enough 'tiny minorities' of assholes have driven people they've targeted offline - along with real world harassment, stalking, doxxing and SWATting and suicide - to show that allowing them free reign comes with a cost to other people's access to platforms.
By contrast, David and Sarcastr0 are all in on speech suppression.
Whereas you are apparently all in on government regulation of business. When it gets you the desired ideological outcome.
Lots of posts here. Only one is driven purely by spite.
We all knew you would be on censorship’s side
I know what’s public and what’s private.
Helps me keep from nationalizing Twitter in accident.
That's the Dem workaround to get away with what would otherwise be a criminal conspiracy to infringe rights, I guess.
Nope. But it is how the First Amendment works and was intended to work.
I keep trying to go on OAN to talk about how Trump is a sociopath, but they keep criminally censoring me by refusing to let me on their channel.
Why do you tell such lies?
It’s a hypothetical, genius.
Well, OANN is censuring you, but it’s not criminal.
Does OANN offer to air shows for anybody who asks?
Twitter does that for posting.
No Twitter does not. That is the issue here in fact.
Twitter has long marketed itself as that. If they've defrauded people, it does not provide added justification.
Twitter has never marketed itself as that. And since Twitter is free, who exactly do you think they would've defrauded if they had?
"Twitter has never marketed itself as that. And since Twitter is free, who exactly do you think they would've defrauded if they had?"
TV game shows cost me literally nothing to watch.
Yet they have quite strict rules around them to avoid fraud.
Shockingly, even free things can have anti-fraud obligations
They passed a law in the 1960s to ban such fixing, precisely because what they were doing didn't constitute fraud.
Oh, and you might want to note that they did not put this in Title 18 — which is the title focused on criminal law — but in Title 47 — the title focused on the regulation of broadcast media. This was one of those "The public owns the airwaves so the government can control how said airwaves are used" notions, rather than the idea that it was fraud.
What's wrong with feeling satisfaction getting a win over people trying to censor you?
1. You seem unsatisfied.
2. You have not gotten a win.
3. Nobody is trying to censor you.
4. I haven't even muted you.
Of course. If the state of Texas said that you were forbidden from censoring [sic] people who wanted to wander into your living room to preach about the wonders of Marxism, would you not deem yourself injured?
Ben_, looks like Trump's closest supporters are about to get hit pretty hard. Maybe Trump too.
That is a taunt you could ignore, by the way. And it would be smart to ignore it. But I'm betting that to ignore it is really hard for you.
What crime is Biden planning to commit, using the FBI and the DOJ as his criminal gang, against "Trump's closest supporters"?
You were right SL!
It's the 5th Circuit. In a battle between the good ol' boys of Texas and the Silicon Valley elitists of Twitter, would anyone have bet on them finding for Twitter?
Do you have the same thoughts with the parties switched when the 9th spits out a ruling?
Occasionally, but as the 9th Circuit is not intent on killing innocent citizens while the 5th Circuit apparently revels in it, I still prefer 9th to 5th.
How about you?
I don’t like either one. I’d prefer judges be apolitical but when pigs fly I guess.
I think I kind of Willet on the 5th because he is as close to libertarian as anyone but I’m not even sure if that. He has called bullshit on qualified immunity, so that’s something I suppose……
What would this wingnut judge say to or about Artie Ray Lee Wayne Jim-Bob Kirkland, who was censored and banned by the Volokh Conspiracy’s hypocritical right-wing operator for making fun of thin-skinned conservatives too deftly for the proprietor’s taste?
Carry on, clingers. So far and so long as better Americans permit, that is.
Leftists hated corporations until those companies started carrying their water and doing the dirty work. Now they are the most big business party ever to exist, ever.
I hate corporations, I'll hate them even more if the right succeeds in executing exactly the kind of takeover and practices they falsely allege the left has already acheived.
Whenever you make these types of comments, can you really not see how the hypocrisy reflects right back on you? You are apparently all about government regulation of business now, because you happen to like these ones.
Leftists still hate corporations. We're all delighted that the right has turned against them as well. The highlight of the year has been watching the DeSantis vs. Disney brawl. Disney's the worst company to have ever existed after Blackwater (which at least had the courtesy to give itself an ominous name), but still, what Florida politician in their right mind would pick a fight with Disney? Especially a conservative!
So yeah, keep on believing that you're trolling the libs by attacking popular companies.
Also what is this I hear about the 5th saying ‘the Platform only cited Supreme Court cases here, not original history, so they defaulted on this argument’?
Could be wrong, no cite yet.
“We turn now to the merits of the Platforms’ First Amendment claim. As always, we start with the original public meaning of the Constitution’s text. We need not tarry long here because the Platforms—by pointing to no evidence whatsoever on this point—do not contend that the First Amendment’s history and original understanding provide any basis for invalidating Section 7.”
“Rather than mount any challenge under the original public meaning of the First Amendment, the Platforms instead focus their attention on
Supreme Court doctrine. And under that doctrine, the Platforms contend, Section 7 somehow burdens their right to speak. How so, you might wonder? Section 7 does nothing to prohibit the Platforms from saying whatever they want to say in whatever way they want to say it. Well, the Platforms contend, when a user says something using one of the Platforms, the act of hosting (or rejecting) that speech is the Platforms’ own protected speech. Thus, the Platforms contend, Supreme Court doctrine affords them a sort of constitutional privilege to eliminate speech that offends the Platforms’ censors.
We reject the Platforms’ efforts to reframe their censorship as speech. It is undisputed that the Platforms want to eliminate speech—not promote or protect it. And no amount of doctrinal gymnastics can turn the First Amendment’s protections for free speech into protections for free censoring. We (1) explain the relevant doctrine and Supreme Court precedent. Then we (2) hold this precedent forecloses the Platforms’ argument that Section 7 is unconstitutional.”
So they’re not saying they waived or defaulted an argument in a formal procedural sense. They’re basically just trolling them by saying: “you idiots didn’t even think to start with original public meaning, and instead went right to SCOTUS precedent as though that somehow matters.” And FWIW, the “original public meaning” of the first amendment is explained in a few paragraphs with some law review cites, SCOTUS cases (LOL given what they just said) and the obligatory cherry-picked Blackstone/Story/random congressmen quotes.
Sometimes the most frustrating things about the new FedSoc dominated courts isn’t even their substantive outcomes. It’s their complete disregard for normal litigation behavior in their pet causes that wouldn’t fly anywhere else. Fifth Circuit laughs off the idea that a plaintiff would point to binding SCOTUS precedent first. Cannon simply invents facts that aren’t in the record. Judges coming up with pejorative names for parties they don’t like. Etc.
Pretty much any judge presiding over small claims or traffic court is better at law and judging than these guys so long as they maintain procedural predictability and respect to the parties in front of them.
It may sound strange to readers here, but I see an analogue here to the Right to Repair issue.
Excerpts from the opinion:
It is no answer to say, as the Platforms do, that an observer might
construe the act of hosting speech as an expression of support for its message. That was the precise contention the Court rejected in both PruneYard and Rumsfeld: Neither the shopping mall nor the law schools wanted to endorse the hosted speech. The Rumsfeld Court dismissed that concern out of hand because even schoolchildren know the difference between sponsoring speech and allowing it. See 547 U.S. at 65 (citing Bd. of Educ. of Westside Cmty. Schs. (Dist. 66) v. Mergens, 496 U.S. 226, 250 (1990)). That’s precisely why even the Platforms concede that “objective observer[s]” would not “conclude that [Platforms] intended . . . to promote terrorism” when they host terrorist content. Motion to Dismiss at 23, Gonzalez v. Twitter, Inc., No. 4:16-cv-03282 (N.D. Cal. Jan. 13, 2017).
Sorry, kids, you don't get to handwave Pruneyard away. Just like the Pruneyard, YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook can all post "the statements here are not corporate statements, but the opinions of the original posters", and then they're done
You don't get to ignore Miami Herald vs. Tornillo. Or Hurley. Or PG&E. Or Wooley. All of those would have come out the other way if "the compelled host can just issue a disclaimer" were sufficient to cure the compelled speech.
And you ignore the fact that FAIR was about regulating conduct, not speech, and that the holding in Pruneyard was based on the premise that requiring the mall to allow people to speak didn't interfere with the mall's own speech. Neither of those are applicable here.
Second, the Platforms are free to say whatever they want to distance themselves from the speech they host. The Supreme Court has been very careful to limit forced-affiliation claims by speech hosts. After all, any speech host could always object that its accommodation for speech might be confused for a coerced endorsement of it. But the Court rejected that forced-affiliation argument in PruneYard, where the shopping mall owner was not required to affirm the pamphleteers’ expression in any way, and was “free to publicly dissociate [himself] from the views of the speakers or handbillers.”
Rather, to win a forced-affiliation claim, the speech host must show that it’s “intimately connected with the communication” and hence cannot dissociate itself from it. Hurley, 515 U.S. at 576. Here, the Platforms remain free to expressly disavow, distance themselves from, or say whatever they want about any expression they host. For example, Platforms can add addenda or disclaimers—containing their own speech—to users’ posts. And many of them already do this, thus dramatically underscoring that Section 7 prohibits none of their speech.
Accordingly, the Platforms cannot invoke “editorial discretion” as if uttering some sort of First Amendment talisman to protect their censorship. Were it otherwise, the shopping mall in PruneYard and law schools in Rumsfeld could have changed the outcomes of those cases by simply asserting a desire to exercise “editorial discretion” over the speech in their forums. Instead, the Platforms must show that Section 7 either coerces them to speak 15 The Platforms’ other cases ostensibly supporting premise one are even farther afield. Manhattan Community Access Corp. v. Halleck, 139 S. Ct. 1921 (2019), discussed the constitutional limits on editorial discretion in public forums and described the issue in this case as “[a] distinct question not raised here.” Id. at 1931 & n.2. And Arkansas Educational Television Commission v. Forbes, 523 U.S. 666 (1998), simply reiterated Turner I’s conclusion that cable operators’ selection and presentation of programming is speech for First Amendment purposes. Id. at 674. or interferes with their speech. Of course, how the Platforms do or don’t exercise editorial control is relevant to this inquiry, as it was in Miami Herald and Turner I. But the Platforms can’t just shout “editorial discretion!” and declare victory.16
Premise two of the Platforms’ syllogism is also faulty. Even assuming “editorial discretion” is a freestanding category of First-Amendment- protected expression, the Platforms’ censorship doesn’t qualify. Curiously, the Platforms never define what they mean by “editorial discretion.” (Perhaps this casts further doubt on the wisdom of recognizing editorial discretion as a separate category of First-Amendment-protected expression.) Instead, they simply assert that they exercise protected editorial discretion because they censor some of the content posted to their Platforms and use sophisticated algorithms to arrange and present the rest of it. But whatever the outer bounds of any protected editorial discretion might be, the Platforms’ censorship falls outside it. That’s for two independent reasons.
First, an entity that exercises “editorial discretion” accepts reputational and legal responsibility for the content it edits
(emphasis mine)
As I've argued before: you're neither an "editor" nor a "publisher" of any item for which Section 230 protects you from lawsuits, which is to say for something for which you bear no legal responsibility
It’s of course true that the right to speak generally entails the right to select what to speak. But asserting that Section 7 obstructs the Platforms’ “selection process” begs the question whether the Platforms’ censorship is protected speech at all. If it’s not, then there’s no First Amendment right for censors to select their targets—just as there’s no First Amendment right for law schools to select their recruiters, no First Amendment right for shopping malls to select their pamphleteers, and no First Amendment right for telephone companies to select which calls to drop.
And editorial discretion generally comes with concomitant legal responsibility. For example, because of “a newspaper’s editorial judgments in connection with an advertisement,” it may be held liable “when with actual malice it publishes a falsely defamatory” statement in an ad. Pittsburgh Press Co. v. Pittsburgh Comm’n on Human Rels., 413 U.S. 376, 386 (1973). But the Platforms strenuously disclaim any reputational or legal responsibility for the content they host. See supra Part III.C.2.a (quoting the Platforms’ adamant protestations that they have no responsibility for the speech they host); infra Part III.D (discussing the Platforms’ representations pertaining to 47 U.S.C. § 230).
Second, editorial discretion involves “selection and presentation” of content before that content is hosted, published, or disseminated. See Ark. Educ. Television Comm’n v. Forbes, 523 U.S. 666, 674 (1998); see also Miami Herald, 418 U.S. at 258 (a newspaper exercises editorial discretion when selecting the “choice of material” to print). The Platforms do not choose or select material before transmitting it: They engage in viewpoint-based censorship with respect to a tiny fraction of the expression they have already disseminated. The Platforms offer no Supreme Court case even remotely suggesting that ex post censorship constitutes editorial discretion akin to ex ante selection
Section 230 undercuts both of the Platforms’ arguments for holding that their censorship of users is protected speech. Recall that they rely on two key arguments: first, they suggest the user-submitted content they host is their speech; and second, they argue they are publishers akin to a newspaper. Section 230, however, instructs courts not to treat the Platforms as “the publisher or speaker” of the user-submitted content they host. Id. § 230(c)(1). And those are the exact two categories the Platforms invoke to support their First Amendment argument. So if § 230(c)(1) is constitutional, how can a court recognize the Platforms as First-Amendment-protected speakers or publishers of the content they host?
...
It’s obviously true that a legislature can’t define what speech is or is not protected by the First Amendment. Cf. Marbury, 5 U.S. at 177. It’s also irrelevant because that’s not what § 230 purports to do. The First Amendment generally precludes liability based on the content of someone’s speech or expression. E.g., Cohen v. California, 403 U.S. 15 (1971). Defamation liability for publishers is one of the several exceptions to this rule. See generally New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254 (1964) (relationship between defamation liability and the First Amendment). But § 230 creates an exemption from that exception for the “interactive computer services” that fall within its scope, including the Platforms. And it does so by stating that they should not be treated as publishers. Thus, § 230 is nothing more (or less) than a statutory patch to a gap in the First Amendment’s free speech guarantee. Given that context, it’s strange to pretend that § 230’s declaration that Platforms “shall [not] be treated as . . . publisher[s]” has no relevance in the First Amendment context.
Moreover, Congress’s factual determinations do carry weight in constitutional adjudication. As the Supreme Court has explained, Congress’s findings on “essentially factual issues . . . are of course entitled to a great deal of deference.” Walters v. Nat’l Ass’n of Radiation Survivors, 473 U.S. 305, 330 n.12 (1985); see also, e.g., Turner Broad. Sys., Inc. v. FCC, 520 U.S. 180, 195–96 (1997) (“Turner II”). And § 230 reflects Congress’s factual determination that the Platforms are not “publishers.”
Another lie. Section 230 reflects Congress's policy determination that states should not be allowed to treat websites as publishers of third party content. This was not a "factual determination."
This is a particularly egregious lie by Oldham, because there actually are factual findings by Congress in 230. And that isn't one of them.
Deference to Congress’s judgment is particularly appropriate here because the Platforms themselves have extensively affirmed, defended, and relied on that judgment. For example, they’ve asserted that § 230 “promotes the free exchange of information and ideas over the Internet and prevents the inevitable chill of speech that would occur if interactive computer services could be held liable merely for serving as conduits for other parties’ speech.”19 Consistent with Congress’s judgment, they’ve told courts repeatedly that they merely serve as “conduits” for other parties’ speech and use “neutral tools” to conduct any processing, filtering, or arranging that’s necessary to transmit content to users.20 They’ve also repeatedly defended the wisdom of Congress’s judgment, arguing that § 230 “made it possible for every major internet service to be built and ensured important values like free expression and openness were part of how platforms operate.”21
The Platforms’ position in this case is a marked shift from their past claims that they are simple conduits for user speech and that whatever might look like editorial control is in fact the blind operation of “neutral tools.” Two amici argue that the Platforms are therefore judicially estopped from asserting that their censorship is First-Amendment-protected editorial discretion.22 See In re Superior Crewboats, Inc., 374 F.3d 330, 334 (5th Cir. 2004) (“Judicial estoppel is a common law doctrine that prevents a party from assuming inconsistent positions in litigation.”). That’s a fair point. But in any event, the Platforms’ frequent affirmation of Congress’s factual judgment underlying § 230 makes us even more skeptical of their radical switcheroo that, in this case, they are publishers. Cf. ibid. (doctrine of judicial estoppel “protect[s] the integrity of the judicial process by preventing parties from playing fast and loose with the courts to suit the exigencies of self interest” (quotation omitted)).
The Platforms’ only response is that in passing § 230, Congress sought to give them an unqualified right to control the content they host— including through viewpoint-based censorship. They base this argument on § 230(c)(2), which clarifies that the Platforms are immune from defamation liability even if they remove certain categories of “objectionable” content. But the Platforms’ argument finds no support in § 230(c)(2)’s text or context. First, § 230(c)(2) only considers the removal of limited categories of content, like obscene, excessively violent, and similarly objectionable expression.23 It says nothing about viewpoint-based or geography-based censorship. Second, read in context, § 230(c)(2) neither confers nor contemplates a freestanding right to censor. Instead, it clarifies that censoring limited categories of content does not remove the immunity conferred by § 230(c)(1). So rather than helping the Platforms’ case, § 230(c)(2) further undermines the Platforms’ claim that they are akin to newspapers for First Amendment purposes. That’s because it articulates Congress’s judgment that the Platforms are not like publishers even when they engage in censorship
Note how Oldham has to lie about what the law says.
"First, § 230(c)(2) only considers the removal of limited categories of content, like obscene, excessively violent, and similarly objectionable expression."
It does not say "similarly" objectionable. It says literally exactly the opposite: otherwise objectionable.
Indeed, if Oldham were right, it would be unconstitutional under RAV v. St. Paul.
In fact, it does no such thing. They are separate provisions, completely unconnected from each other.
Congress made no such judgment. Congress said that states may not treat them as publishers, not that they aren't publishers.
The telegraph was the first communications industry subjected to common carrier laws in the United States. See Genevieve Lakier, The Non- First Amendment Law of Freedom of Speech, 134 Harv. L. Rev. 2299, 2320– 24 (2021). Invented in 1838, the telegraph revolutionized how people engaged with the media and communicated with each other over the next half century. But by the end of the nineteenth century, legislators grew “concern[ed] about the possibility that the private entities that controlled this amazing new technology would use that power to manipulate the flow of information to the public when doing so served their economic or political self-interest.” Id. at 2321. These fears proved well-founded. For example, Western Union, the largest telegraph company, sometimes refused to carry messages from journalists that competed with its ally, the Associated Press— or charged them exorbitant rates. See id. at 2321–22. And the Associated Press in turn denied its valuable news digests to newspapers that criticized Western Union. See ibid. Western Union also discriminated against certain political speech, like strike-related telegraphs. See id. at 2322. And it was widely believed that Western Union and the Associated Press “influenc[ed] the reporting of political elections in an effort to promote the election of candidates their directors favored.” Ibid.; see, e.g., The Blaine Men Bluffing, N.Y. Times, Nov. 6, 1884, at 5 (accusing them of trying to influence the close presidential election of 1884 by misreporting and delaying the transmission of election returns).
In response, States enacted common carrier laws to limit discrimination in the transmission of telegraph messages. The first such law, passed by New York, required telegraph companies to “receive d[i]spatches from and for . . . any individual, and on payment of their usual charges . . . to transmit the same with impartiality and good faith.” Act of April 12, 1848, ch. 265, § 11, 1848 N.Y. Laws 392, 395. New York further required such companies to “transmit all d[i]spatches in the order in which they [we]re received.”
Which is pretty much exactly what Texas did here. Everyone who does the things required to get to send messages gets to send them, and you can't downrank (delay) their messages because you don't like the content
When state legislatures or state courts imposed new common carrier requirements, affected firms often sought to evade them by bringing constitutional claims in federal court. The landmark case is Munn v. Illinois, 94 U.S. 113 (1876). Illinois passed a statute regulating railroads and grain elevators. Among other things, the statute regulated grain elevators’ rates and prohibited rate discrimination. See id. at 117. Munn & Scott, proprietors of a Chicago grain elevator, brought a litany of constitutional challenges to Illinois’s law, arguing that it violated the Commerce and Port Preference Clauses of Article I, as well as the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment. See id. at 119–20. The thrust of the challenge was that Illinois’s law subverted private property rights without compensation and without sufficient justification. See, e.g., id. at 133.
The Supreme Court rejected Munn & Scott’s claims and held that state legislatures may constitutionally regulate private firms if the service they provide is “affected with a public interest.” Id. at 130. The Court expounded at length “the doctrine which Lord Hale has so forcibly stated,” approving Hale’s formulation and tracing its adoption and development in American common law. See id. at 126–30. It then explained that the Illinois legislature could have reasonably determined that grain elevators were affected with a public interest. That’s because they were enormously important to the agriculture and shipping industries: They stood in the “gateway of commerce” and provided an indispensable link between western grain and eastern markets. Id. at 132. And while there were fourteen grain elevators in Chicago, controlled by nine firms, the market was small and interconnected enough to be ripe for abuse if state regulation was wholly prohibited.
That would be totally relevant if wheat and corn were protected by the first amendment.
Texas permissibly determined that the Platforms are common carriers subject to nondiscrimination regulation. That’s because the Platforms are communications firms, hold themselves out to serve the public without individualized bargaining, and are affected with a public interest.
To state the obvious, the Platforms are communications firms. The Platforms halfheartedly suggest that they are not “members of the ‘communications industry’” because their mode of transmitting expression differs from what other industry members do. But that’s wrong. The whole purpose of a social media platform—as aptly captured in HB 20’s definitional provisions—is to “enable[] users to communicate with other users.” Tex. Bus. & Com. Code § 120.001(1). The Platforms’ own representations confirm this—for example, Facebook’s Terms of Service indicates its purpose is to enable users to “communicate with friends, family, and others.”25 In that sense, the Platforms are no different than Verizon or AT&T.
The Platforms also hold themselves out to serve the public.26 They permit any adult to make an account and transmit expression after agreeing to the same boilerplate terms of service. They’ve thus represented a “willingness to carry [anyone] on the same terms and conditions.” Semon v. Royal Indem. Co., 279 F.2d 737, 739 (5th Cir. 1960).
The Platforms resist this conclusion, arguing that they have not held themselves out to serve the public equally. That’s so, they contend, because they are only willing to do business with users who agree to their terms of service. But requiring “compliance with their reasonable rules and regulations” has never permitted a communications firm to avoid common carrier obligations. Chesapeake, 7 A. at 811. The relevant inquiry isn’t whether a company has terms and conditions; it’s whether it offers the “same terms and conditions [to] any and all groups.” Semon, 279 F.2d at 739 (emphasis added). Put differently, the test is whether the company “make[s] individualized decisions, in particular cases, whether and on what terms to deal.” FCC v. Midwest Video Corp., 440 U.S. 689, 701 (1979) (quotation omitted). Here, it’s undisputed the Platforms apply the same terms and conditions to all existing and prospective users.
The Platforms also contend they are not open to the public generally because they censor and otherwise discriminate against certain users and expression. To the extent the Platforms are arguing that they are not common carriers because they filter some obscene, vile, and spam-related expression, this argument lacks any historical or doctrinal support. For example, phone companies are privileged by law to filter obscene or harassing expression, and they often do so. 47 U.S.C. § 223; see, e.g., Carlin Commc’ns, Inc. v. Mountain States Tel. & Tel. Co., 827 F.2d 1291, 1292 (9th Cir. 1987). Yet they’re still regulated as common carriers. Similarly, transportation providers may eject vulgar or disorderly passengers, yet States may nonetheless impose common carrier regulations prohibiting discrimination on more invidious grounds. E.g., Williams v. Trans World Airlines, 509 F.2d 942, 948 (2d Cir. 1975).
The Platforms nonetheless contend that they cannot be regulated as common carriers because they engage in viewpoint-based censorship—the very conduct common carrier regulation would forbid. This contention is upside down. The Platforms appear to believe that any enterprise can avoid common carrier obligations by violating those same obligations. That is obviously wrong and would rob the common carrier doctrine of any content
The MAGA semi-ascists appear to believe that a state can avoid the first amendment rights of a person by declaring that the person has no first amendment rights. That is obviously wrong and would rob the first amendment of any content.
Common carrier status, at least with respect to speech, cannot be imposed by the government. Period.
The Platforms and their amici make three counterarguments that merit additional responses. First, they suggest that common carrier regulations are impermissible—or at least disfavored—unless the government has contributed to a carrier’s monopoly, such as by licensing a legal monopoly or acquiring property for the carrier through eminent domain. That’s obviously wrong. Recall that in Hale’s original formulation, common carrier treatment was appropriate if a proprietor operated the “only [wharf] licensed by the queen” or if there was simply “no other wharf in that port.” Hale, supra, at 77. American courts followed this formulation and did not require a government-conferred monopoly. E.g., Webster, 22 N.W. at 238. 29 See James Alleman, Edmond Baranes & Paul Rappoport, Multisided Markets and Platform Dominance, in Applied Economics in the Digital Era (James Alleman et al. eds. 2020); Kenneth A. Bamberger & Orly Lobel, Platform Market Power, 32 Berkeley Tech. L.J. 1051 (2017).
Even if the Platforms were right, however, the government has conferred a major benefit on the Platforms by enacting § 230. See supra Part III.D. As the Platforms have acknowledged, “Section 230 made it possible for every major internet service to be built.”30 By their own admission, the Platforms are just as dependent on § 230’s liability shield as the old railroad companies were on the ability to traverse land acquired via eminent domain. Accordingly, the Texas legislature reasonably determined that the Platforms “have enjoyed governmental support in the United States” and that this supports common carrier regulation.
It's really quite simple: You don't want to be a common carrier? You want to be a publisher, with editorial control?
Great!
You get no Section 230n protections. Just like the NYT, you are responsible for everything you publish, and can be sued for any libel or slander you carry.
The NYT is protected by Section 230, so your premise is wrong; like many ignorant people, you fail to understand that Section 230 is about anyone on the Internet, not "social media companies" specifically.
You also completely misunderstand the point of 230, which is precisely to encourage websites to exercise editorial control.
But setting those points aside, it is certainly the case that Congress can repeal 230 as you propose. That will not have the effect the MAGA semi-fascists want; it will lead to more moderation rather than less. But it can happen. We can go back to the Stratton Oakmont era.
What can't happen is a state trying to say that because Congress enacted 230, the state can therefore strip an entity of its constitutional right to exercise editorial judgment.
At bottom, the Platforms ask us to hold that in the long technological march from ferries and bakeries, to barges and gristmills, to steamboats and stagecoaches, to railroads and grain elevators, to water and gas lines, to telegraph and telephone lines, to social media platforms—that social media marks the point where the underlying technology is finally so complicated that the government may no longer regulate it to prevent invidious discrimination. But we may not inter this venerable and centuries-old doctrine just because Twitter’s censorship tools are more sophisticated than Western Union’s. Cf. Brown v. Ent. Merch. Ass’n, 564 U.S. 786, 790 (2011) (“[B]asic principles of freedom of speech and the press, like the First Amendment’s command, do not vary when a new and different medium for communication appears.” (quotation omitted)).
Second and more importantly, the Eleventh Circuit’s “editorial- judgment principle” conflicts with PruneYard and Rumsfeld. The Eleventh Circuit tries to square its rule with PruneYard by noting that there, the forum owner didn’t make an editorial-judgment argument. NetChoice, 34 F.4th at 1215. Perhaps, although that writes PruneYard out of the U.S. Reports by making the precedent irrelevant as long as a speech host chants the magical incantation “editorial judgment!” But then we get to Rumsfeld, where the forum owner did make the editorial-judgment argument: The law schools claimed a “First Amendment right to decide whether to disseminate or accommodate a military recruiter’s message” in their forum. 547 U.S. at 53. Yet the Supreme Court unanimously rejected the claimed right to choose who speaks in the law schools’ forum because “[t]he Solomon Amendment neither limits what law schools may say nor requires them to say anything."
The Eleventh Circuit tried to square its “editorial-judgment principle” with Rumsfeld by asserting that “[s]ocial-media platforms, unlike law-school recruiting services, are in the business of disseminating curated collections of speech.” NetChoice, 34 F.4th at 1216. The Eleventh Circuit thus relied on the fact that social media platforms’ business is disseminating users’ speech, whereas law schools’ core business is not disseminating job recruiters’ speech. On the Eleventh Circuit’s reasoning, the business of disseminating speech is protected editorial judgment even if casual or sporadic dissemination is not.
This distinction turns law, logic, and history on their heads. First, law: The Supreme Court’s cases have never stated or implied that this distinction is dispositive. If they had, phone companies and shipping services would be free to discriminate, while PG&E (whose primary business is providing electricity, not disseminating speech) would have no First Amendment right to decline to share its billing envelope space with a third party.
The Eleventh Circuit also distinguished Rumsfeld on the ground that social media platforms, unlike law schools, disseminate “curated collections of speech.” NetChoice, 34 F.4th at 1216. This curation means that social media platforms are engaged in “editorial judgment” while law schools are not. But that’s backwards. The law schools in Rumsfeld deliberately reviewed the content and viewpoint of bulletin board notices and emails before disseminating them to students on behalf of employers. But social media platforms, after algorithmic screening to filter obscenity and spam, arrange and transmit expression to users while remaining agnostic as to far more than 99% of that expression’s content and viewpoint. See Moody, 546 F. Supp. 3d at 1091–92. If either entity is “curating” expression in the ordinary sense— that is, engaging in substantive, discretionary review to decide what merits inclusion in a collection—it’s the law schools. A person’s social media feed is “curated” in the same sense that his mail is curated because the postal service has used automated screening to filter out hazardous materials and overweight packages, and then organized and affixed a logo to the mail before delivery
Recall that under the Eleventh Circuit’s framework, the presence of editorial judgment generates a First Amendment right to censor. But now, censorship itself—as long as it’s explained by a generalized appeal to some attractive value—constitutes editorial judgment. This is circular: The Platforms have a right to censor because they exercise editorial judgment, and they exercise editorial judgment because they censor. The only arguably non- circular part of this framework is the apparent requirement that the censorship be justified by appealing to something like a “welcoming community” (as opposed to, say, an “unwelcoming one”). But the Eleventh Circuit gives this requirement no meaningful content: The Platforms may establish a First Amendment right to censor by invoking any generalized interest, like “fostering authenticity,” without even explaining how viewpoint-based censorship furthers that interest. The practical upshot is that telephone companies, email providers, shipping services, or any other entity engaged in facilitating speech can acquire a First Amendment license to censor disfavored viewpoints by merely gesturing towards “safety” or “dignity.” That is not the law, as Miami Herald and Turner I illustrate and PruneYard and Rumsfeld confirm.
From Edith Jones' concurrence:
In particular, it is ludicrous to assert, as NetChoice does, that in forbidding the covered platforms from exercising viewpoint-based “censorship,” the platforms’ “own speech” is curtailed. But for their advertising such “censorship”—or for the censored parties’ voicing their suspicions about such actions—no one would know about the goals of their algorithmic magic. It is hard to construe as “speech” what the speaker never says, or when it acts so vaguely as to be incomprehensible. Further, the platforms bestride a nearly unlimited digital world in which they have more than enough opportunity to express their views in many ways other than “censorship.” The Texas statute regulates none of their verbal “speech.” What the statute does, as Judge Oldham carefully explains, is ensure that a multiplicity of voices will contend for audience attention on these platforms. That is a pro-speech, not anti-free speech result.
Another way to look at this case, however, is through the Turner I decision, in which the Supreme Court held that cable TV companies are to some extent engaged in First Amendment-covered “speech” when, as they “operate” their systems, they determine which cable channels to host. 1 Using intermediate scrutiny, the Court did not reject federal must-carry regulations requiring hosting of certain preferred channels. Instead, the Court distinguished both Pacific Gas & Electric and Miami Herald for three reasons. First, the must- carry regulations were content neutral. Second, they did not force cable operators to modify their own speech, nor were viewers likely to associate the mandatory hosted speech with that of the operators. And third, a cable operator’s selection of channels controlled the flow of information into subscribers’ households, and could “thus silence the voice of competing speakers with the mere flick of a switch.” Turner Broadcasting Sys., Inc. v. FCC, 512 U.S. at 656, 114 S. Ct. at 2466. I find all of these points compellingly applicable to analyzing the regulations imposed on large social media platforms by the Texas statute before us
I think the majority has the better analysis. A large-scale social media platform like Facebook or Twitter is much more lime a phone or cable company than a newspaper. It functions primarily as a utility hosting other people’s content, rather than a provider of content in its own right.
And to the extent it provides its own content, government if it wants can require the hosting platform and the content provider to be split into separate companies.
In much the same way that the government can require the NYT and the NYT letters to the editor to be split into separate companies, which is to say that you're insane.
Suppose the US privatized the postal service, and the New York Times Company bought it. It then set up a business where it opened everybody’s mail, inserted ads and sent it off where it wanted to, erased or rewrote where it wanted to, refused to deliver when it wanted to.
As the NYT lawyer of course you’d argue that what is doing is absolutely no different from what it dod before, just operating a newspaper on a larger scale, curating what people see, acting as a publisher. You’d argue it was insane to suggest that government could have a the power to require the NYT to separate out its mail delivery service from its advertising and curated information service. Of course you would.
But I think everybody else would say there’s no need to frame things the way you as the NYT’s lawyers do. Most people would see tbe situation, and the business model, as a merger between two previously selarate businesses, a newspaper and a common-carrier. And government could decide that it’s in the public interest for the two kinds of businesses to be separated, the common carrier not allowed ro curate, and the curator having to make do without access to what’s in everybody’s mail.
Of course the NYT as curator wouldn’t have as good a product nor make as much money without the ability to access, edit, and censor everybody’s mail. But government could decide, rationally, that what’s good for the NYT is not necessarily what’s good for America. It could require the two businesses to separate. And if the mail is free because paid for by advertisements under the merged-business model, it needn’t stay free after the businesses are separated.
This is the situation we have here. There are in effect two businesses, a common carrier business for the general public’s messages, and a curated information and advertisements business. Government can require the two to separate. It can prohibit the curated information and advertising service from accessing messages not directed to it or the public. If can impose common carrier res on the messaging service. And if under the separated model the messaging service has to charge to make money, like traditional phone companies and letter carriers, so be it.
You might say, but that’s not the business model! The business really is one thing, not two separate things. As a single thing, it can only be in ome category. And it really is more newspaper like than postal service like. Postal services where the sender pays to deliver mail and the carrier can’t open it are just things of the past, nostalalgia for them is against progress.
Well, bank robbers can jolly well explain their business model too. They case premises, tunnel into banks, open safe deposit boxes and valuables, and take the money. Perhaps they do it in a novel, clever way. They may consider the idea that people expect their valuable to be their own archaic and anti-progress.
Just because you can articulate a business model, just because it contains something new and novel and clever, doesn’t mean that business model has to be legal.
No, it's just to say that, as usual, you're full of sh!t
PG&E doesn't get to cut off customers because they say that all men have penises. Even if those customers are using PG&E's provided power to light up a big sign saying that
PG&E can send out a newsletter saying that "men can become pregnant".
Similarly, Twitter is free to post tweets saying that "men can become pregnant". What they have absolutely no right to do is censor the sane people saying that all men have penises, and that only women can be pregnant
I will point out that the underlying law is another example of law stepping in (for better or for worse) when ethics fails.)
Facial challenges require a greater burden than an as-applied challenge, and the Court here rejected the facial challenge, while leaving open arguments that the Texas law may be subject to as-applied challenges based on specific circumstances.
Furthermore, the only relief afforded by the Texas statute is declaratory and injunctive relief; there are no statutory damages awarded. As such, there is no chilling effect on freedom of speech.
I think the majority has it correct large social media platforms like Facebook and Twitter are more like phone and cable companies than like newspapers. Their primary function is to be utilities, carriers, hosting others’ content. Any content of their own is incidental. They have no more inherent right to curate others’ content than phone companies do, or than banks to curate what safety deposit box holders deposit in their safety deposit boxes.
That couldn't be more wrong if you were GregJ. That is not the function of Facebook or Twitter. They have nothing in common with phone or cable companies. They are not utilities under any stretch of the imagination, and are not carriers. They have never in any portion of their existence acted that way.
It's not "others' content." And on what planet do you think banks can't curate what safety deposit box holders deposit in their safety deposit boxes?
Look at my example of the NYT merging with the postal service to create ab hybrid business mode. Create rules whereby all ownership of mail is transferred to the NYT upon deposit, and you have exactly the situation we have here. The NYT owns all the content, because there’s an enforcible contract saying so. So there’s no postal service, just a gigantic newspaper.
Same with a bank that merges with the robber business. It too can create a contract saying it and not the depositor owns everything deposited. That way nobody has to do any tunneling at night.
Again, government can simply prohibit such transfers by law. It can simply pass a statute saying such a contract is void and the user retains ownership. Government can decide that a business that requires people to transfer ownership of their essential communications to it in order to be able to communicate is not in the public business. It can simply ban the business model. No fuss, no muss. Well within its police power over economic and social matters.
No, it can't. You're just doing another version of the common carrier thing, saying that the government can use a magic incantation to abrogate the first amendment. "Business model" is just a label. "I'm not regulating your speech; I'm regulating your business model regarding your speech." Sorry, no.
An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. It’s not the mere gainsaying of whatever the other person says.
The Supreme Court has long held that letter carriers, wire services, telephone companies, cable companies, transmitteds of information generally, don’t have a first amendment right to refuse, edit or even look at what they carry.
All I’m sayinf is they still can’t do that wvwn if they also happen to be operating a news and asvertising service on the side.
The fact that they see the news and advertising business as the core of their business rather than a side business, and the information carrier business as the incidental and irrelevant business, doesn’t mean the public or the state or the constitution has to see it that way. It’s understandable that a business would regard its source of revenue as its core business, so if it carries mail for free in exchange for putting advertisements in it it thinks it’a in the advertising business, not the mail carrying bussiness. But neither the piblic the state nor the constitution have any obligation to see things that way. They don’t have to concern themselves with where the money’s coming from. Their concern is the effect on the public.
It looks the Supreme Court did indeed make a magical incantation and abrogated the first amendment.
[Citation needed.]
As to the rest of your point, the government cannot tell a distributor or publisher that it must charge for its product rather than employ an ad-supported model, on the grounds that this is just a regulation of "business model" rather than a regulation of speech. That's just crazy talk. The NYT has the equal right to choose to run ads for a free publication or to charge subscribers for a copy, and the government can't override that.
Then the majority is blatantly wrong.
A phone company or letter carrier has no reason to look at your content, they just connect A to B.
But social media companies literally compete on their ability to curate content!!
There's been years of controversy around FB, resulting in congressional hearings, because it's content curation algorithms were radicalizing people!
And I know of multiple people who quit Twitter years ago because of the toxic atmosphere, and they returned later because increased moderation and bans improved the user experience.
Texas is literally telling Social Media companies how to run a core function of their business.
So if I run a wholesome online forum, let’s say birdwatching, and so one wants to use it for pro-Nazi discussions then I must let them? Hell no.
See my example of a newspaper merging with the postal service. Its lawyers may be able to structure things so they can make a clever argument that their hybrid model is more newspaper like than postal service like, and opening everybody’s mail and deciding whether to send it and changing it and inserting advertisements when they do is no different from a newspaper dealing with letters to the editor. But tnat doesn’t make the reality even remotely like a simple newsletter.
The three most important points in this context:
1) Conservatives have lost the American culture war and must continue to watch the liberal-libertarian mainstream shape our national progress against the wishes and efforts of Republicans, right-wingers, racists, xenophobes, gay-bashers, misogynists, Islamophobes, and the other constituents of the losing side of that culture war.
2) Nothing the Oldhams, Volokhs, Alitos, Thomases, Trumps, DeSantises, Hannitys, Giulianis, or Eastmans of our world can stop (or even much influence) the tide of American progress.
3) The content (including comments) of this white, male, right-wing blog should persuade those responsible for hiring at America's strong, mainstream law schools to stop hiring movement conservatives for faculty positions. Why expose your institution's franchise to diminution through association with bigoted, hackish, obsolete, disaffected right-wingery?
So far as . . . you know.
Things that do not exist in any meaningful sense int he US:
1: Nazis
2: Violent right wing extremism
3: Anti-black hate crimes
Things that do exist and are problems in America today
1: Communists and Martxists
2: Left wing political violence
3: Anti-"white" bigotry and racism
4: Faked up hate crime claims targeting "white" people
5: Censorship of discussions of these pathologies and their assault on America
It is entirely not a shock that our would be tech overlords are babbling in Court about how they have to suppress all these things that are not an actual issue, while they support the pathologies that actually are an issue
Note: The reason why people are constantly faking up "anti black hate crimes" (see Duke BYU volleyball game for a recent example) is because there are essentially no real ones for them to complain about
The reason why the Biden Admin is having the FBI fake up "domestic right wing extremism crimes" is because there aren't any real ones to complain about
Communists murdered far more innocent people than Nazis. The CCP is carrying out a religious Final Solution against the Urghars right now.
People who actually have a problem with mass murder and / or genocide would all be at least as anti-Commie as they claim to be anti-Nazi
That they aren't puts the lie to their claims
What Greg means is that of course Nazis exist in the U.S., but he doesn't see that as a problem.
How many Nazis exist in the US?
How many people who support Islamic terrorist attacks against the US exist in the US?
Should people who advocate for Islamic terrorist attacks against the US be censored?
Should people who support the Palestinian Authority, which supports Islamic terrorist attacks against Israel (giving money to the families of people who engaged in terrorist attacks against Israel is, by any reasonable definition of the term, "support for terrorist attacks against Israel) be censored?
Communist governments have murdered and genocided far more people than the Nazis ever did. Should all Communists, and all Communist supporters, be censored?
I note that David is the guy who thinks that everyone who disagrees with him is a Nazi.
So, when you say "Nazis must be censored", is what you're really saying "everyone who disagrees with me must be censored"?
Are Nazis bad people?
Yes
Should every single "bad person" be censored"?
I say "?no"
David says "hell yes, everyone who disagrees with me is a bad person who must be censored"
Which is to say that David is a nasty little fascist who only disagrees with the Nazis about targets, not means
Hey David, how many "Nazis" are there in Ukraine?
Are you yet another Putin apologist, saying "of course it's right for Russia to invade Ukraine to throw out those Nazis"?
Or do "Nazis" only "matter" when it's your bad of lunatics destroying civil rights in order to "protect us from the Nazis"?
And the other side, who made a career of screaming business has no free speech rights suddenly finds it.
If AT&T were a truly private actor in a free market, then sure, absolutely. When AT&T benefits massively from government collusion and government monopoly protection, that's a very different story. You can't say "let the market decide" when no meaningful market forces are in play.
"Less than a quarter of Americans use Twitter"
So 75 million Americans use Twitter
Which o f those other platforms allows me to reach 75 million Americans at a time?
There aren't any?
Seems "effectively" is the appropriate word there
Which twitter user actually reach’s 75 million people at a time? Oh yeah Trump!
It's almost as if some thing are good and other things are bad.