The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Two Ironic Legacies of Ken Starr's Investigation of Bill Clinton
Starr's role in the impeachment of Clinton may have cost him a seat on the Supreme Court. And the biggest beneficiary of Starr's failure was probably George W. Bush.

Kenneth Starr - most famous for his role as the independent counsel who drafted the report that led to the impeachment of President Bill Clinton - passed away yesterday. His controversial career includes two major ironies and historical what-ifs.
The first is that Starr's tenure as independent counsel may have cost him a seat on the Supreme Court. Before his role in the Clinton impeachment, Starr (a former prominent federal judge and solicitor general of the US) was seen as a highly plausible GOP Supreme Court nominee. Indeed, his status as a widely respected pillar of the legal establishment was one of the reasons why he was selected to be independent counsel in the first place! The Starr Report made him a hero to social conservatives, but a villain to most Democrats and independents. Thus, he was no longer a plausible Supreme Court nominee. No Republican president was likely to spend the political capital needed to get Starr confirmed, so long as there were other, less controversial options that had comparable credentials. In some alternate universe, Bill Clinton manages to restrain his impulses or never gets caught, or Starr isn't named independent counsel. And we get Supreme Court Justice Kenneth Starr.
The second irony is that the biggest beneficiary of Starr's failure to get Bill Clinton removed from office was probably…. George W. Bush! Had the Senate convicted Clinton, Al Gore would have become president and served out the last two years of Clinton's term. As an incumbent president, Gore would likely have gotten more of the credit for the good economy of the time than he did as Vice President. Also, incumbent presidents generally get some electoral boost just for being incumbents. Even a very small boost would have been enough to net Gore the extra few hundred votes needed to win Florida in 2000 and defeat Bush.
Incumbent status would likely have been worth at least a 1% bump or more, enabling Gore to win by thousands of votes. Gore would have won a clear, though still close, victory, and few would ever have heard of the butterfly ballot or hanging and dimpled chads. In retrospect, Republicans should be happy that Starr failed, and Democrats should lament it!
On a slightly more serious note, I think the Starr Report was mostly right about Bill Clinton. He did have "sexual relations with that woman" and he did commit perjury about it (unless you adopt Clinton's highly idiosyncratic and convenient redefinition of what counts as "sexual relations"). And I reject the then-common view that Starr was delving into these details of the sexual relations out of some kind of prurient interest or obsession with sex. The allegations against Clinton related to perjury about his relationship with then-White House intern Monica Lewinsky, and investigators had little choice but to go into the evidence about that subject.
At the same time, I believed then and still believe now that Clinton's offenses weren't grave enough to justify impeachment and removal (Donald Trump's were far worse). But, in hindsight, I think it might have been better for the country if the Senate had convicted Clinton nonetheless, so as to set a precedent for accountability for presidential wrongdoing. Later events showed there is far more danger to underdeterrence of misconduct in high places than overdeterrence.
I had a number of ideological and jurisprudential differences with Starr, and his post-Clinton impeachment career certainly had its flaws (including a scandal-marred tenure as President of Baylor University). But he was likely more right than wrong about Bill Clinton. Ironically, Starr probably paid a higher price for investigating Clinton's wrongdoing than Clinton himself paid for committing those acts in the first place.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
What did the Paula Jones matter have to do with his original assignment?
So why did he have to ask so many prurient questions?
Why did he publish the report for all the world to see, instead of just to the Committee which appointed him?
I am still nauseated by what this pompous middle aged "Christian" did, forcing a terrified young woman to answer questions about penises and blow jobs.
Uh, maybe because that's what lawyers do?
That report was going to go public one way or another.
What kind of fantasy world do you live in, blaming the prosecutor for prosecuting?
"terrified young woman "
Are you also nauseated by what the pompous middle aged Lothario did?
She was in this position because of Clinton, not Starr.
She was in this position because of Linda Tripp, who grossly violated Lewinsky's privacy by secretly recording what was supposed to be a confidential conversation and then giving it to Lucianne Goldberg who gave it to Starr (though Starr lied about that part).
Clinton was the rapist. Are you trying to pretend otherwise? Are you following the Hillary denial line?
That you throw around such a word so casually shows that you don't know what the word means.
Guess you never heard of Juanita Broderick,.
Guess you don't know that Juanita Broaddrick — if you're going to exploit her, you should get her name right — swore under oath that it didn't happen.
To call this a half truth does extreme violence to the word "half." Good grief.
No; it's a whole truth. Sure, she has vociferously argued — not under oath — that it did happen. But not sure why anyone would take that more seriously than the sworn claim that it didn't.
But not sure why anyone would take that more seriously than the sworn claim that it didn't.
Her explanation was that, at the time, she was concerned for her privacy and just wanted the whole thing to go away. You know, the sort of explanation often put forth by women's advocates. Is that a legit excuse? I have no idea. But to claim that there's no reason to accept her many, many accounts that it did happen because of the one time she denied it (even under oath) is stupid even for someone who was so easily fooled by "Hands up, don't shoot" (and stood by it for so long even after it was exposed as bullshit).
How many points did I lose for mis-spelling,
you twit.
You then dissemble the point of my post.
"Clinton was the rapist."?! Really, who did he rape?
Juanita Broderick, when he was the Attorney General of Arkansas.
It's not hard to see why as chief law enforcement officer in the State he thought he could get away with it.
Sure, if it wasn t for Tripp it would have been denied till the end of time.
"I never had sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinski. Not one time"
...or words to that effect.
And keeping it unknown would have been much better for Ms. Lewinsky. Didn't you ever think of that?
No wonder you're an out of work lawyer.
Probably better than being an out of work assistant manager at AutoZone like you, hayseed.
That might be so if it were true, but it isn't in my case and apparently is in the case of captcrisis; for which he has my sympathy.
How about for Paula Jones? She was the one pursuing the matter civilly under legislation that allows a victim of workplace sexual harassment to discover and compel testimony about similar workplace transgressions.
Clinton was using the power of the presidency to forestall her legitimate claims.
She didn't have any legitimate claims, and Clinton perjuring himself is not "using the power of the presidency." It's just ordinary malfeasance.
(By didn't have legitimate claims, I don't mean she was necessarily lying about what Clinton did. I mean that assuming she was telling the truth, it didn't state a claim.)
"She was in this position because of Linda Tripp"
Clinton was a serial sexual harasser, a predator. Pretty nauseating that you continue to blame everyone but him.
Clinton was a serial sexual harasser, a predator.
True. But why did you put "terrified young woman" in scare quotes to rebut his point? If you feel this way about Clinton...why are you so contemptuous of his victim?
I was quoting captcrisis, talk to him. It wasn't scare quotes, just quotes.
True. But you singled that line out to discredit it. Why? Do you not think she was a terrified young woman?
I wasn't going to quote everything. Enough for people to know whose/which comment I was responding to, its a common way to do it.
Okay. But there were other things to quote to rebut and discredit him. Yet you chose "terrified young woman." Why? Again, do you not agree that she was a terrified young woman in this situation?
It was just a usage to ID the comment.
Yeah an unconventional one which you consciously made. When other sentences would be more appropriate. And you still haven’t answered whether you agreed she was a “terrified young woman” or not.
True.
Meaning your "scare quotes" assertion was bullshit. The end.
No it wasn’t. Why did he lick terrified young woman when other sentences were the ones he was trying to rebut? Unless he didn’t agree or scoffed at the notion that that’s what she was?
"Why did he lick terrified young woman"
...so many questions...
That was inappropriate, but consensual. What Republicans, and lots of others who should have known better, did to her afterwards was as ugly a display of raging public misogyny as the modern US has seen.
Most companies will throw a CEO under the bus for screwing a secretary. It is frowned upon.
Only if she complains. Which Ms. Lewinsky didn't.
"Only if she complains. "
That's not remotely true.
Give me an example.
- Steve Easterbrook, McDonalds
- Harry Stonecipher, Boeing
- Brian Krzanich, Intel
- Christopher Kubasik, Lockheed
That took about 5 seconds of googling. There are many more.
This was the 1990s. They would have cheerfully fired the secretary and threatened legal action and blacklisting for speaking up.
Nope in fact the exact opposite. This was at the height of firing CEO's for consensualy sleeping with their secretaries. Feminists flip-flopping positions to save Clinton's ass is actually what gave everyone a temporary reprieve.
Really? I don't remember that, but if you say so. Feminists did behave disgracefully over this, but it seems all of a piece that nobody expects corporations and companies to behave honourably on their own.
When there is a significant power differential, society and the law both have a strong presumption that sexual relations are non-consensual. That's why prison guards and inmates are forbidden from having sex regardless of "consent" - the potential for coercion or retaliation is so high that claims of consensuality can never be trusted.
The issue was Paula Jones, not Lewinsky.
That was not consensual. She had a right to get Lewinsky's and Clinton's truthful testimony without perjury or suborned perjury.
Prosecutors can use something called tact and discretion (not that you'd know what that is), instead of asking lurid questions about her private and consensual sex life to get at a politician they dislike.
But more importantly his office clearly engaged in unethical conduct with regards to Lewinsky in their questioning of her at the hotel. They threatened her with decades in prison for failure to cooperate while also trying to dissuade her from talking to counsel that even though she asked to speak with him. (Not that it matters but prosecutors, let alone federal prosecutors never bring perjury charges for lying on an affidavit in a civil case, and even if they did, the sentence would obviously not be 27 years.)
They also lied about her attorney's criminal law background, and then put forward the ridiculous excuse after the fact that because he was involved in the Paula Jones civil case and wasn't retained on a criminal matter he wasn't her counsel and they didn't need to go through him. Which again, is absurd when she asks to speak with him, particularly when the conditions of the questioning, one young woman surrounded by male FBI agents and prosecutors at a hotel, would lead a reasonable person to believe it was a custodial interrogation.
Moreover, they indicated immunity would be withdrawn if she shared anything with counsel. Indeed, Starr's successor as special counsel admitted this in his report of her questioning, saying: "The Department requires far greater respect for an individual’s choice of attorney, for attorney-client relationships, and for the role of defense attorneys in the process than that exemplified in this case." This is DOJ itself saying this, not even independent ethics officials, who would likely view this as a violation of her rights and sanctionable misconduct.
So TL;DR Ken Starr and his office also abused Lewinsky and her rights by engaging in unethical conduct. They should have been disciplined by the appropriate bar authorities.
I would hope that you can get a little nauseous over this kind of conduct, but I don't have high hopes for that given your consistent misunderstanding of human and legal ethics as while as the concept of the rights of people during investigations.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/lewinsky-mistreated-by-authorities-in-investigation-of-clinton-report-says/2014/10/23/9a61bf6e-5a0e-11e4-8264-deed989ae9a2_story.html
The independent counsel statute requires a reference to Congress of any grounds for impeachment. I suppose it's theoretically possible to do that confidentially, although I think it's both dubious that doing so would serve the public interest, and highly implausible that it would remain confidential for very long.
As I mentioned below, Starr released his report confidentially to the House Judiciary Comittee. They voted to make it public a few days later.
"What did the Paula Jones matter have to do with his original assignment?
So why did he have to ask so many prurient questions?"
After Tripp ratted Lewinsky out, Janet Reno asked the court overseeing the investigation to expand Starr's mandate to include this issue. See here.
"Why did he publish the report for all the world to see, instead of just to the Committee which appointed him?"
He didn't. He delivered the report to the House Judiciary Committee, who voted to release it to he pubic.
"I am still nauseated by what this pompous middle aged "Christian" did, forcing a terrified young woman to answer questions about penises and blow jobs."
The question that Clinton lied to the court about had a very specific definition of sex, so Starr had to determine if anything that Clinton and Lewinsky did fell under that definition. And by claiming that a blow job didn't count as sex, Clinton vindicated Starr's actions.
+1. Janet Reno requested that a special master be directed to investigate allegations that Lewinsky had committed perjury to protect Clinton, and specifically asked that the job be given to Starr.
His original assignment was to investigate Whitewater. As part of that investigation, concern arose about whether Clinton had tried to arrange lucrative jobs for people who might otherwise be witnesses against him, including Webb Hubbell. And then the same issue arose in the Paula Jones matter, with allegations that Clinton was using Bill Richardson and Vernon Jordan to get Lewinsky a job. Starr wanted to look into this pattern of possible witness tampering/obstruction of justice.
A "terrified young woman" who initiated the affair and apparently had no qualms about actually performing the blow jobs. And why not direct ire at Clinton for lying about it? If he had told the truth there wouldn't have been any need for Lewinsky to be questioned about it.
Any married man would have told the same lie.
Most married men wouldn't have needed to lie about it, but "any married man would have told the same lie" doesn't get you out of perjury charges. It's kind of presumed that perjury has some motive...
Unless, you know, he hadn't cheated. "I had to lie to cover up my prior misdeeds" isn't a very good excuse.
"Any married man would have told the same lie."
Oh, the "married man" exception to perjury. Forgot about that.
"Any married man would have told the same lie."
Yeah, boys will be boys, amirite?
No
He would lie to protect his wife
Captcrisis,
If protecting his wife were of any real importance to him, he would not have cheated in the first place. Your logic is like a bank robber saying he only shot the bank guard to protect the other gang members.
On the bright side, you definitely are showing promise as a comedy writer.
"He would lie to protect his wife"
Bill Clinton? Ok, the lie part but to "protect" Hillary?
Married men don't lie to protect their wife, they lie to prevent the wife from finding out.
Still a pathetically domestic scandal after all the expense and effort.
Ok but you get the point
He would lie to protect his wife
ROFLAMO!!!!!
Not a married man obviously
Hillary had been running around cleaning up his messes for years before that.
Remember the Bill and Hillary 60 minutes interview in '92? She knew about the affair and lied about it.
They even had a term about it in the "92 Clinton campaign "Bimbo Eruption".
Monica Lewinsky got a remarkable deal from Starr -- transactional immunity. For reasons known only to them, the House managers did not call Miss Lewinsky as a witness at the trial of Clinton's impeachment. I wonder why not.
Because they didn't want to suffer Livingston's fate, I assume. Clinton survived because the Republican leadership were too dirty themselves to say "Publish and be damned!" to Clinton's Filegate powered blackmail.
Notice that Livingston got replaced with a pedophile? That really strengthened their blackmail resistance...
I think the "terrified" part comes from the prosecutors' threatening and unethical conduct with regard to their questioning of her and attempts to elicit testimony from her.
Indeed
"What did the Paula Jones matter have to do with his original assignment?"
That's an interesting story. The independent counsel law required that the AG appoint an independent counsel whenever something came up that would involved a conflict of interest if handled by the DOJ. And Starr wasn't the first one appointed, (Clinton had a LOT of legal problems, not just the one he eventually got impeached over.) but at some point the AG apparently decided that it was just putting Clinton in too much jeopardy, and simply refused to appoint any more such counsels.
This resulted in the supervising court, lacking any new independent counsels, dumping each new case on Starr, instead.
At least, that's how I recall it happening.
In some alternate universe, Bill Clinton manages to restrain his impulses or never gets caught, or Starr isn't named independent counsel. And we get Supreme Court Justice Kenneth Starr.
I agree. Somin got the history wrong here, as Ken Starr replaced Robert B. Fiske in the Whitewater investigation in 1994, a year before Lewinsky even started her internship.
"I am still nauseated by what this pompous middle aged "Christian" did, forcing a terrified young woman to answer questions about penises and blow jobs."
To be clear, are you claiming to be a lawyer who's never forced anyone to answer questions about penises and blow jobs?
Other than lawyers with particularly boring specialties, is it common for anyone to make it through a legal career without making people answer such questions?
Starr was ordered by the Attorney General to expand his investigation to include the Paula Jones matter.
Starr of course was investigating Whitewater, but Paula Jones allegations were gaining traction and there were mounting calls for another special counsel. Rather than appoint another SC, the AG ordered Starr to expand his investigation to include the Jones allegations.
Hillary's enabling of Bill's rapes, and her stigmatizing of Bill's rape victims, is the one thing I can never forgive her for. If she'd simply said "No comment" and left it alone, I'd understand. But actively lying about Bill and actively accusing his victims of lying, was one step too far.
Bill Clinton was undoubtedly a horndog. He was not a rapist unless Juanita Broaddrick is to be believed. Ms. Broaddrick, writing under the pseudonym Jane Doe Number 5, also swore under oath that untoward conduct by Clinton didn't happen. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/affidavit122398.htm
Imagine having to make an important decision to make regarding a family member, and the only information regarding it came from Juanita Broaddrick. Who among us would not seek out further information before deciding?
He used his position as boss and as President to have sex. Are you pretending it was voluntary, or worse, are you taking the Hillary line that it never happened or that it was the interns taking advantage of Bill's weakness?
Using his position is boss and President is as much rape as using a rufie.
It… is not.
You have expanded the definition of rape far beyond a Title IX fanatic's wildest dreams in a desperate attempt to smear Clinton.
I wish you were right. A common idea is that power differentials prevent any "meaningful consent" from being given, particularly when money and employment are involved.
That may be a well-accepted idea in Women's Studies departments, but it is not a legal argument. No state makes a "power differential" an element of sexual assault. Some states have codified specific relationships for which consent is not possible,¹ but none say that the existence of a power differential itself makes consent impossible.
¹The most common one is teacher-student. Someone elsewhere in this thread mentioned prison guards and prisoners; most states have only recently started making that an automatic crime. Or cops and arrestees.
Not legally, no, but Alphabet Soup never claimed he was using a legal definition for rape. In the eyes of many people it was rape.
It was inappropraite, but consensual.
Believe the Women!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Ms. Broaddrick, writing under the pseudonym Jane Doe Number 5, also swore under oath that untoward conduct by Clinton didn't happen."
There's plenty of gender studies work indicating that recantations in such circumstances are unreliable.
The claim that she was raped was the recantation.
No. She was sharing the room where it happened with a friend. The friend returned to the room to find Ms. Broaddrick lying in bed in a state of shock with torn clothing and injuries to her lip, and she told the friend that Clinton had forced himself on her. The friend confirms this.
She also told other people at the time.
She claims that the denied it when Jones lawyers subpoenaed her because she didn't want to get involved in the whole thing. It's the classic scenario of recantation that the gender studies world claims in unreliable.
On the only occasion of Ms. Broaddrick's being under oath -- an affidavit which she knew would be presented to a federal district judge -- she expressly and without reservation exculpated Bill Clinton. I am curious, TwelveInchPianist. Do you believe that Mrs. Broaddrick should have been prosecuted for perjury for swearing a false affidavit?
"On the only occasion of Ms. Broaddrick's being under oath...she expressly and without reservation exculpated Bill Clinton."
She recanted the exculpation in an FBI interview because her lawyer son told her she couldn't lie to FBI agents, as lying in that situation would also be a crime.
And she can't be prosecuted for perjury, because she was given immunity for the perjury she committed so that she could tell the truth to the FBI.
The determination of whether Mrs. Broaddrick was lying or telling the truth to federal agents would have been made by Kenneth Starr and his minions, who would likely have tailored their decision depending on whether her statement was helpful to Clinton (prosecute) or harmful to Clinton (don't prosecute). Remember Julie Hiatt Steele?
Susan McDougal went to jail for civil contempt because she was unwilling to risk a perjury prosecution in the event that her answers to grand jury questions displeased Starr.
Well, her statement was neither helpful nor harmful to Clinton as far as any of Starr's investigations went. She never claimed that Clinton tried to silence her, and ultimately she was not asked to testify in any proceeding.
She eventually broke the story to NBC during the impeachment.
She went to jail rather because she had a choice between confirming the testimony of David Hale, and her ex-husband against the Clintons, or lying, or getting a contempt citation.
If she claimed the Clintons didn't lie on their loan application there were already two other witnesses who swore under oath they did, so of course she was at risk denying it.
Really, after all these years and all the Clinton grifts are you really going to claim there was nothing to any of it?
Show some self respect and just come out and say that you don't care.
Next you'll be saying Hunter is a gifted Ukrainian energy specialist, top flight Chinese investment broker, and avant garde artist rolled in to one, and none of the cash was earmarked for the big guy.
Weird to see so many echoes here with Trump. My view of Bill Clinton has soured and curdled considerably since he left office, but Republicans created this hysterically corrupt and evil version of him while failing completely to pin anything on him other than lying about a blow-job, effectively obscuring wahetever the truth is, then they go and vote for Trump, who embodies everything that their version of Clinton represents - the financial corruption, the obstruction, the personal morality of a starving junkyard dog. Like they reimagined Clinton as the creature from their own id, then fell in love with it and went to find a real one.
And then, as president of Baylor, Ken Starr essentially did the same thing by covering up a similar scandal. Irony.
Federal courts are part of the US Government under Article III. Perjury in the course of a federal proceeding undermines the function of that branch of the government. That is reason enough to impeach and convict.
Do you mean to say that any public official who lies under oath in an abusive lawsuit unrelated to his public duties should be impeached and convicted?
Yes.
I disagree.
For similar reasons, even though Trump obstructed justice in the Mueller investigation and could be held criminally liable, I don't think his actions rose to an impeachable offense. He wasn't covering up a crime or anything that impacted his public duties. He was motivated by his man-baby inability to accept that Russia helped him win.
But if you disagree, then I think you should believe Trump should be impeached and convicted since by your standard he undermined the rule of law.
I think that, absent extraordinarily improbable circumstances, the commission of a felony should result in removal of office.
It's not as obvious to me that Trump in fact committed a felony (whereas I don't think there's any serious argument that Clinton did), but to the extent he did I would agree that his removal would have been proper.
Here's the problem with that argument: it rewards obstruction of justice. The person who destroys enough evidence (or suborns enough perjury, or whatever) that his underlying crime can't be proven, gets away with the underlying crime and the obstruction. Whereas the person who commits the same crime, but does a half-assed job covering it up, gets punished twice. Once for the crime and once for the coverup.
Now, if we are going to make it harder to prosecute people for covering up potential crimes, I don't think that the presidency is the right place to start with this leniency.
If Trump destroyed evidence that was needed to prove the underlying crime, I would agree with you. But IIRC, Mueller did not accuse Trump of doing so.
AFAIK, Trump wasn't suspected of destroying physical evidence (then, but the current investigation and scandal has that potential). However, as it relates to "suborns enough perjury, or whatever," the list is long and detailed in Mueller's report. And Mueller was very clear to say the investigation did not exculpate Trump of obstruction.
Yeah, because presumption of innocence, dude: He didn't need to exonerate Trump, he needed to implicate him, and failed at that.
He didn't fail to do it. He declined to do it. And he declined to do it because DOJ policy precluded prosecuting a sitting president. The subtext of the report, along with the strong evidence of guilt, is that but for the DOJ policy, prosecution would have been recommended.
"The subtext of the report, along with the strong evidence of guilt, is that but for the DOJ policy, prosecution would have been recommended."
According to the DOJ regulations, that's supposed to be in the actual text of his report:
"At the conclusion of the Special Counsel's work, he or she shall provide the Attorney General with a confidential report explaining the prosecution or declination decisions reached by the Special Counsel."
If he declined to prosecute because of DOJ policy, he's supposed to say that.
I'm persuaded Trump obstructed justice. But as explained above, the reason he did is not an impeachable offense in my view.
Josh R
September.14.2022 at 2:43 pm
" He was motivated by his man-baby inability to accept that Russia helped him win."
Russia helping a republican to win is highly implausible though progressives like to push that line.
A) Democratic party policy much more closely align with communist party policy and
B) Russian had already bought Hillary
C) take for example Obama's famed off the record call telling Russia to wait until after the election for the obama to cede to russia's policy inititive
so unless you believe russia was hedging their bets, it remains implausible that Russia was seriously trying to help Trump win.
Sure if you lie up and down about everything, you can make it sound implausible.
Both NIge & Sebastian are running neck and neck in the contest to see who has the most delusional understanding of history and reality
Try again, without the lying.
The statements I made are factual - and widely recognized as factual except for those that have a delusional understanding of reality.
Democrat policies aren't 'close' to communism, and Russia hasn't been communist since the 1990s. Clinton wasn't 'bought' by Russia, and Obama's aside wasn't that he would 'cede' to Putin, he said he could be more flexible, presumably still under the impression that Putin could be reasoned with and US/Russsian relations improved. Meanwhile non-partisan reports concluded Russia tried to influence the election in Trump's favour.
Nige - "Meanwhile non-partisan reports concluded Russia tried to influence the election in Trump's favour."
Non partisan experts - such as Brennen?
As QA points out, you can discount Brennan and still have plenty to go on.
Nige
September.15.2022 at 7:53 am
Flag Comment Mute User
As QA points out, you can discount Brennan and still have plenty to go on."
Do you mean the other 150+ national security experts that said Hunter's laptop was russian dissinformation. You and QA certainly are relying on sources that have proven uncredible.
That's not what they said, and you don't have any basis for thinking it uncredible anyway.
But he probably means the Republican-run Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.
'He wasn't covering up a crime'
Isn't obstruction a crime?
Of course it is. But in my opinion, the reason for obstruction is critical in determining whether it is a high crime that justifies impeachment.
Well, first of all there would have to be an investigation into whether he had committed obstruction. But handily for Trump he had Bill Barr as his personal lawyer at the time.
What is your position on all other crimes with a less than 100% resolution rate?
Why are you making so many excuses for Bill?
Clinton was not impeached for lying under oath in a lawsuit, abusive or otherwise.¹ He was impeached for lying to a federal grand jury.
¹That was one of the articles of impeachment considered by the House, but it was rejected.
By no stretch of the imagination was it a "high crime or misdemeanor".
“An impeachable offense is whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history.” Gerald Ford
A "high crime or misdemeanor" is so vague as to be impossible to define. Ford's view is absolutely correct, as I said when it was Trump.
The word "high" means undermining the government. Which that was. Ironically, if a president shot someone on 5th Avenue, that would not be a high crime, although it would be murder.
My imagination stretches further than yours.
By no stretch of the imagination was it a "high crime or misdemeanor".
JFC. You've gotten just about every single fact of the case wrong...and spectacularly so. Don't you ever tire of demonstrating what a complete moron you are?
Where are those exceptions in the perjury statute? Answer: nowhere.
Suppose Clinton had bribed the judge or magistrate judge in that case. Would you similarly say, it was "an abusive lawsuit unrelated to his public duties" so no removal?
Suppose he tried to influence a judge or magistrate judge to rule his way, say by talking him or her up and giving him or her some honors (e.g., an overnight in the Lincoln bedroom)? Same question.
And, you are wrong that it was "unrelated to his public duties." The Constiution requires the president to swear that he "will to the best of [his] Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." Interfering with the funciton of one branch of government is undermining the Constitution. And one of the functions of the judicial branch is to resolve civil disputes, it's right there in Article III.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that his actions undermined the Constitution itself. Does everyone who resist arrest by a federal officer undermine the Constitution by interfering with the executive branch? I think not.
Without otherwise taking sides in the dispute, I think it's obvious to the point of inarguable that the president has a more specific obligation to the Constitution than the average citizen, and more importantly, a rather unique Constitutional imperative to not interfere with the functioning of the other branches of government. (Given he is the 3rd branch of government whom they're supposed to check and balance).
Yes.
Ily 's comment - "At the same time, I believed then and still believe now that Clinton's offenses weren't grave enough to justify impeachment and removal (Donald Trump's were far worse)."
I am not defending Trump - though his first impeachment was a turf fight over the Biden family corruption and which corrupt faction in Ukraine to support. Some indications that the state dept was also trying to protect the golden goose in Ukraine.
Omg, no..just no. Trump was extorting Zelensky to just announce an investigation and not actually conduct an investigation. Trump’s actions deserved impeachment and McConnell had all the power over Trump in December and relinquished it. Trump actually had a lot of power in December 2019 and Schumer and McConnell and Trump should have made a deal to fix the border and immigration and Trump would get to declare victory and Pence would run in 2020–I blame McConnell for everything that has come after.
Trump couldn't have done any of what you claim if the Bidens hadn't gotten in there first.
You mean if his official duties hadn't taken him to Ukraine? Maybe Trump would have found somewhere else Biden had gone and tried to extort them.
Sounds like a great jiu-jitsu move...they knew Biden's family has some unsavory connections to Ukraine, so why not get ahead of the issue by impeaching Trump for exploiting that corruption?
Maybe Trump was wrong do act as he did, though the impeachment changed the framing from "Biden has unsavory foreign connections" to "Trump pounces."
If Hunter Biden was really doing something illegal why didn't the Trump Justice Department investigate?
The scandal is what's allowed. Voters don't have to limit themselves to legalities.
Assuming the Biden's acted legally, then Congress shouldn't have allowed it. Congressional leaders should have put through some anti-corruption laws - I can't think of a name of a prominent Congressional leader, but I'm sure there was one at some point.
What exactly do you think Hunter Biden did wrong in Ukraine? And what shouldn't Congress have allowed? A private citizen engaging in business dealings in his private life? Let's stipulate that he did get his seat on the board because his last name was Biden. Are you going to pass a law saying that the adult relatives of politicians have to change their names? That they cannot have jobs? I mean, what's your notion here?
As for Joe Biden, he delivered an open message to the Ukrainian government on behalf of the Obama administration that they needed to fire a corrupt prosecutor if they wanted American support. Again, what exactly do you think Congress could or should outlaw about that?
Yes, indeed, I'm in favor of a law that relative of politicians "cannot have jobs." There's no other interpretation of my remarks.
And why are you saying "the Bidens" and not just the one person, Joe's son, who was actually there? Do you believe that crimes of the children attach to the parent's too? Does that work in reverse?
Nope, the children of politicians should all be unemployed. That's what I said, wasn't it? You said so yourself.
shawn_dude
September.14.2022 at 4:28 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
And why are you saying "the Bidens" and not just the one person, Joe's son, who was actually there? Do you believe that crimes of the children attach to the parent's too? Does that work in reverse?"
Yes when other family members are getting a cut - Emails and texts from the infamous hunter's laptop refer to "mr. big" getting his share.
If it had said 'Mr Biden,' you might have a case.
There's no reasonable interpretation of your remarks, so I'm trying to probe what you were actually contemplating. The only thing Hunter Biden can be accused of is exploiting his last name to get a job. But that's unavoidable. One can't be the son of the Vice President and have people not take that into consideration when hiring. Unless one doesn't get a job at all.
The only thing Hunter could be accused of is exploiting his family name -
See details from the laptop
Emails and texts from the infamous hunter's laptop refer to "mr. big" getting his share.
Queen almathea
September.14.2022 at 6:38 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
"Cite."
Time for you to quit being ignorant of what is common knowledge - common knowledge by those paying attention and those not denying reality
Queen almathea
September.14.2022 at 6:38 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
Cite.
As I stated - its time for you to quit being ignorant
https://nypost.com/2022/07/27/hunter-bidens-biz-partner-called-joe-biden-the-big-guy-in-panic-over-laptop/
You keep mindlessly saying "laptop" (just like you keep mindlessly reciting other mantras on other topics). Let's assume that the contents of the alleged laptop that nobody has seen are totally authentic. There are no "details from the laptop" describing any corrupt or illegal business dealings by Hunter Biden.
Everything here is wrong, from the small (it was "the Big Guy," not "Mr. Big") to the large (there was one email, and it asked whether "the big guy" would get 10%… of a transaction that never happened) to the huge (nothing about this was corrupt, even if "the Big Guy" referred to Joe Biden and even if the transaction had happened; Joe Biden wasn't even in office any longer at the time this transaction was being discussed.)
@DMN-
Was that email even on Hunter's laptop? I thought investigators got it from the original sender.
That is the thing with "Hunter's Laptop." The NY Post had its contents -- if there were anything bad on Joe "Big Guy" Biden, it would have come out. It is obviously full of bad/embarrassing stuff about Hunter, but that is neither here nor there.
I, personally, think Joe Biden is an oddly-insecure doddering fool with a tendency to say whatever comes into his head, regardless of truth or accuracy. But I make that determination based on my observations of him, not inferences from his son's behavior.
Why did they suggest that the report of Biden, Jr.'s behavior was Russian misinformation? Why did they minimize the story on social media? Why did they try to spike a story of completely harmless and unobjectionable activities?
Perhaps the dumb voters can't be trusted to understand political scientist George Washington Plunkett's distinction between honest graft and dishonest graft. The Bidens are simply engaged in good old fashioned honest graft, but some misguided voters might have made a big deal of it if the matter had become widely known before the election. Best to keep it hush-hush, then.
Please stop deadnaming me. I identify as a Margrave now. You may address me as "Your Excellency."
You people are so fucking stupid—-I can see how George W Bush was president for 8 years and how Lizard Cheney was voted into GOP leadership in January 2021.
Gosh, I'm sorry I voted for Liz Cheney. 🙁
The nitwit you voted into Congress voted for her to be in leadership.
Which nitwit? Give names and dates, please. I mean, "nitwit" is a very broad term and you'll have to narrow it down.
She was voted into GOP leadership by Republicans in the House last year!?!
I'm not the GOP leadership.
If you can generalize, so can I - you deny a gender binary, but you insist on tying people down with a political binary.
I’m a Trump Republican.
Ah, trying to play into certain unfortunate stereotypes about Trump supporters, are you?
I’m one of the very few NeverBush Republicans. Trump in 2016 was my dream platform.
'was a turf fight over the Biden family corruption'
What bullshit.
I don't think the Clinton impeachment was Ken Starr's fault, as was noted he had to follow the evidence. I do blame the Republicans. Their impeachment over the President personal failure was too much and produced too little. I think they would have achieved as much maybe more by simply settling for a censor resolution. I think the party would have done better in 1998 midterms and would still have won the Presidency in 2000.
Gingrich grew up in Europe and has a PhD in European history—Gingrich was playing the Game of Thrones. GINGRICH WANTED TO BE PRESIDENT!! His goal was to impeach both Clinton and Gore and via Constitutional succession he would become president. Gingrich understood how monarchies worked via succession and wars were fought over pretenders and whatnot but he had a peaceful way to get to be president via the Constitution.
It took Newt Gingrich to make a serious journalist out of Larry Flynt.
What’s the saying about attempting to take out the king?? Gingrich knew all about the game of thrones and the risks and rewards
Thinking this too much. No way they were going to remove Al Gore. Newt wanted a big score, and he overplayed his hand. He could have had a broad bipartisan censor, but he wanted more.
You are just wrong. Gingrich wanted to impeach Gore. Remember Republicans controlled the House which meant they would never approve Gore’s VP pick.
Share with us what you've learned about Gingrich's discussions on the impeachment question.
Speaker Gingrich is talking to, and has been talking to over a period of time, close associates about the idea of impeaching both Clinton and Gore. It goes as follows: Gingrich expects that the Starr report will be very tough and that the House will have no choice but to proceed with hearings looking toward an impeachment.
https://www.salon.com/1998/04/29/news_30/
Kenneth Starr was removed as President of Baylor University for failing to investigate a sex scandal.
History loves irony.
Maybe he thought Clinton was his means to apologize!
Maybe, but he was president of Baylor after the Clinton sex scandal, so if it was by way of apology, it would be a time traveling miracle.
President AlGore??? I just threw up a little bit.
Gingrich would have impeached him too.
Maybe some legal experts can help me out...when I read the impeachment articles against Clinton, they said he ought to be removed from office and disqualified from officeholding (federal officeholding) in the future...the minimum punishment would be removal from office with eligibility for future office.
Maybe some moderates thought the crime wasn't bad enough for the maximum penalty? Maybe they thought the penalty question should be discussed separately from the guilt question?
Or am I reading the articles of impeachment wrong?
Gingrich’s play was to induce Gore to pardon Clinton which Gingrich would have then used to impeach Gore. Gingrich and Republicans in Congress would never have supported any VP pick of Gore’s which is a tactic McConnell would use years later with Garland.
OK, but that doesn't answer what was in fact a completely sincere and non-trollish question, put to the experts on a legal blog.
The articles of impeachment were drafted by someone thinking they were playing 3D chess.
Am I correct in guessing that you could vote against the articles of impeachment because the offense, though impeachable, shouldn't get the maximum punishment?
You could vote against them for any reason, so yes.
Lindsey Graham ended up voting against one of the articles of impeachment and he was one of the House prosecutors.
"You could vote against them for any reason, so yes."
Yes, but what would Norm think? I should say all the Norms. The norms applicable to impeachment trials.
As a rule, former Presidents don't run for office, so eligibility to hold federal office isn't an issue for a former President. Yes, Trump is talking about running again, but he's an exception. I doubt it even occurred to anybody that Clinton might want to hold federal office after he left the Presidency.
I suspect that the disqualification was included in the articles of impeachment for symbolic effect--as a way of saying that what Clinton did was so bad that it deserved the maximum penalty. But I don't recall any debate about whether the articles of impeachment should include a disqualification, presumably because it didn't really matter. I certainly can't imagine that any of the Senators who voted to acquit would have voted the other way if the articles of impeachment hadn't included a disqualification to hold future office.
That would have been my vote, though. The disqualification penalty has been applied for treason and for really serious bribery issues. Things which *didn't* warrant disqualification, merely removal, involve shielding one's buddies from criminal investigations, felony tax evasion, and drunkenness on the bench. At least those are what occur to me off the top of my head.
Of course, previous convictions involved federal judges. Maybe Presidents have an extra-special responsibility?
We forget now how the entire media, practically top to bottom, was yelling for Clinton's head. While he had a 65% approval rating. It was the clearest disconnect in my lifetime between the media and the public -- with the media following the Republican Party line.
All the pundits predicted a bloodbath in the 1998 midterms, despite the polls showing otherwise. The polls turned out to be correct.
I think the media let its lust for scandal overcome its general preference for Democrats.
I hope this will be the case with any scandals today.
"We forget now how the entire media, practically top to bottom, was yelling for Clinton's head."
Weird, I seem to remember the media being remarkably pro-Clinton, anti-Starr.
Ah, I think you miss the point...the media showed bias by covering the scandal in the first place, instead of focusing on shark attacks or whatever. I mean, sure, they gave differing perspectives on the scandal, including the Democratic perspective, but that was *after* making the biased decision to treat the scandal as news.
/sarc
Your memory is a bit off.
Since both my memory and some quick research of media article of the time line up with TwelveInch's memory, I think it's more likely that it's your memory that's a bit off.
But please feel free to correct us with a link to a survey or tally of statistically significant media coverage of the time.
Your memory is a bit off.
LOL! This from the dipshit who has been proven wrong on every single claim he's made about the facts of the case.
"We forget now how the entire media, practically top to bottom, was yelling for Clinton's head. "
We do tend to forget things which did not happen.
https://www.tampabay.com/archive/1998/12/15/media-leaders-aren-t-followed/
One of many many examples you can find in a quick search.
Neither of those are examples of irony.
What about a traffic jam when you're already late?
It’s long a song about irony…that contains no irony.
"that contains no irony"
People say that but why isn't the verse about the guy scared of planes ironic? Or the meeting your dream man and his wife at the same time?
Just home wreck like Lewinsky. 😉
And you're a supporter of serial adulterer Trump?
I’m not tribal—I also support Clinton and Obama and Biden. I believe George W Bush was the worst president in history but the other presidents have been good. I even think Jimmy Carter was a good president.
Agree about Bush, anyway.
Any president actively promoting the JCPOA cant be considered a good president.
Omg, no. The Axis of Evil!!
Like not long
Clinton did not have an "idiosyncratic" definition of what constitutes "sex." The problem was the question posed by the plaintiffs and modified by the trial judge (who was presiding in person at the deposition, the text of which is available). The plaintiffs set out a convoluted, multi-part definition of "sex," which attempted to capture any and all manners in which two human beings might have physical contact. Clinton's lawyer objected to on the ground, paraphrasing, that, "hey, get real, we need to know what the hell you're asking." The judge concurred that the definition was unworkable and, improbably, proceeded to exclude from the definition the one relatively clear subpart which fairly clearly defined oral sex. So, Clinton, of course, could truthfully say NO, never had any of that other stuff (and in his mind say thank you to the judge for getting him off the hook on oral sex). Clinton lied, of course, but not on that part. He lied when the plaintiffs asked if he'd "ever been alone" with the intern. He said NO, which was obviously false. I know, the most bizarre of details, but blame the judge and the plaintiff's lawyer, not Clinton's idiosyncratic concept of sex. He was actually pretty mainstream on that......
"So, Clinton, of course, could truthfully say NO, never had any of that other stuff (and in his mind say thank you to the judge for getting him off the hook on oral sex)..."
Except that according to Lewinski, they did do some of that other stuff. The distinction is why Starr had to include so many prurient details in his report.
Butt stuff?
fn 209
I don't wish death on anyone.
But this pathetic failure of a human being first dedicated his life to party over country. When that gig ended, he threw himself at defending the powerful from those they were abusing at his cushy university job.
After that practice, he followed by helping Jeff Epstein attack *his* victims. And for his final public act, publicly burnt his own reputation by defending Trump.
He spent his life proudly acting the pathological weasel, and the country is worse for it.
Fuck you, Ken. Now rest in peace.
Amen. If there’s a heaven and a hell, not much doubt as to where he’s going.
If y'all hadn't given Clinton a pass of lying under oath to the Jones court and to Starr's grand jury, obstruction of justice, etc, it would have been much easier to impeach Trump for similar conduct.
Just sayin'
No. It wouldn't.
Clinton misled in a civil deposition during discovery—commenters on a legal blog should understand Jones’s lawyers were the unethical actors because it is their responsibility to present evidence and not attempt a perjury trap in a civil case which is insane!?! I can only assume you aren’t a lawyer.
"not attempt a perjury trap in a civil case "
Getting a party to lie in a civil case is valid lawyering. Undercutting a defendant's credibility helps a plaintiff, and vice versa.
Clinton, like Trump and many others, though he was smarter than the opposing lawyers.
But you can’t tattle to the sheriff to arrest an opposing party in a civil case—which is essentially what Jones’s lawyers were attempting to do. Her lawyers were clearly not putting her interests first which is unethical and should have led to their disbarment. The judge was a flappy pussy because the judge should have at the very least berated them for wasting the court’s time by playing grabass while she was presiding over the case.
The federal judge in Arkansas did find Clinton in contempt of court for lying under oath.
Iirc he “misled” the court. But she was wrong, Jones’s lawyers behaved unethically and their unethical behavior led to Clinton’s utterances. It should be obvious to everyone Jones’s lawyers didn’t have her best interests which is unethical regardless of who is paying the bills.
From the ABA:
Actual or potential conflicts of interest raised by a dual representation must be addressed in the usual manner if the payor is also a client, see MPR 1.7, but even if the payor is not a client, you must consider whether the financial arrangement—i.e., the fact that the payor is paying the client’s legal fees—itself creates a dynamic that prevents your providing zealous representation or interferes with the exercise of your independent professional judgment. This could occur, for instance, with the payor expressing a financial interest in minimizing expense. Consider stating in your agreement with the payor that the fact that the payor agrees to pay legal fees incurred by the client does not itself make the payor a client and that the payor will have no right to instruct the lawyer in the matters in which the lawyer is representing the client.
Of course you can. What you can't do in most states is threaten to make a criminal complaint in order to gain an advantage in a civil case.
You can go to the sheriff about witness tampering but not for the opposing party not saying exactly what you them to say in a deposition…you could get arrested for lying to law enforcement officers.
No, you couldn't.
Yes, you could. You are tattletale and nobody likes a tattletale.
Trump bragged about sexual assault on tape, which was played repeatedly prior to the 2016 election. Clinton lied about having oral sex and Trump bragged about assault. Clinton was impeached for it and Trump was elected in spite of it.
But, the core of the point you're making seems to be that the *Republicans* would have been more likely to vote to *convict* had Clinton been similarly convicted for lying about oral sex with a consenting adult intern. Because lying about an extramarital affair is just like lying about one's attempt to get a foreign leader, having been invaded by a hostile neighboring country, to make up a corruption scandal about your opponent in exchange for getting support to fight the invasion. If Republican senators can set aside an American president using extortion of a foreign leader in order to get even with Democrats over Clinton's blow job, that really isn't a complementary picture of the GOP's priorities.
Talk about your epic false equivalences. Also, does anyone really think the Clinton trial in the Senate is really the key factor in why the GOP is falling over itself to kiss Trump's butt these days? That one blue dress is all it took for the majority of the GOP to pretend it's okay to "store" foreign nuclear intelligence at a golf resort?
The only unique thing here are all the bizarre ways the GOP tries to come up with to blame their headlong rush towards corruption and authoritarianism on the Democrats.
"Trump bragged about sexual assault on tape, which was played repeatedly prior to the 2016 election."
Nope. He said he could have gotten away with it, not that he had. Do you also think he's confessed to shooting somebody on 5th avenue?
Trump bragged about sexual assault on tape
No, he didn't.
Having sex with an employee in the office would have gotten any CEO in the country fired.
If it hasn't been a government employee/intern and he hadn't done it in the Oval office, I wouldn't care.
Kennie-boy didn't give a shit about sexual abuse or misbehavior.
He was happy to prattle on about sexual morality when that served his goals. And then he turned around and defended the Baylor boys, Jeff Esptein and Don Trump.
Yeah, there's a man who clearly is all about speaking truth to power.
At the time of all of that I was the senior manager in charge of around 50 people and I believed that if I ever did something like that I’d have been run off.
It never came up because I didn’t mess around in my wife but I knew other guys who were serial sexual harassers like Clinton and they got canned.
So, knowing that about you know, and you and I both knowing that Trump was infamous for unwanted sexual advances and touching, to the point where he was associated with Jeffrey Epstein and himself bragged about sexual assault on tape, I would be correct in assuming you did not vote for Trump in 2016 and 2020? Because if you believe someone who does this on the job should be run off, then you must also believe that someone known for this should never be hired/elected in the first place.
You are absolutely correct that I did not vote for Trump in either 2016 or 2024. Do I get a prize or something? Were you making assumptions about my vote based on the simple fact that I didn’t agree with you?
I had all the reasons I needed, but “grab them by the pussy” wasn’t a strong point in his favor. There were some guys who were braggarts about that stuff all the way back to high school and I never wanted to hear about it and always assumed that about 80% of that was made up bullshit. Never could stand those pricks, and both Clinton and Trump qualify.
Oops. 2020. Freudian slip?
Maybe post-MeToo, but most certainly not in the mid-1990s.
It would now, probably, if they didn't manage to hush it up or PR it away. Trump likes NDAs, of course. Would it have back then?
Paula Jones v. William Jefferson Clinton and Danny Ferguson, No. LR-C-94-290 (E.D. Ark.)
“For purposes of this deposition, a person engages in “sexual relations” when the person knowingly engages in or causes –
(1) Contact with the genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner thigh or buttocks of any person with an intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person;
(2) Contact between any part of the person’s body or an object and the genitals or anus of another person; or
(3) (3) contact between the genitals or anus of the persona and any part of another person’s body.
Contact means intentional touching, either directly or through clothing.”
Only (1) above was circled -- apparently by the judge -- to limit the definition of sexual relations.
Cited as Tab 2, in the Document Supplement to Starr’s §595 (c) Report
\https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-CDOC-105hdoc311/pdf/GPO-CDOC-105hdoc311-3.pdf
---------------------
And so the record is completely clear, have you ever had sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky, as that term is defined in Deposition Exhibit 1, as modified by the Court.
. . .
A. I have never had sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky. I've never had an affair with her.
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/politics/072998clinton-testimony.html
Any one of us in 1990 would have slapped our foreheads about how laughably trivial this discussion was. And how it is poles apart from "high crimes and misdemeanors".
First of all it was 1999, so you’re off to begin with by a decade. My four daughters were all under 10 and I wanted women to be treated a lot better than Clinton was willing to do. By then I was a rich powerful guy who could of easily behaved like Clinton did but chose not to because I loved and respected my wife. And I treated the women that worked under me like equals.
So you’re full of partisan shit as always. If I could treat women with respect so could Clinton. Not to mention what would happen to me if I committed perjury. I wanted them to nail the SOB. When all of the Democrats came out and stood behind him at a press conference it did notso a lot of good for my opinion of the Democratic Party.
I really meant 1990. Or any time before the Republican Party ran off the rails.
Like you’re one capable of reasonable judgement about your political opponents. Lol.
I don’t care anymore - hell, I quit caring by 2000 - but I wished Clinton had been punished. Just another example of rich and powerful getting away with stuff that any of us could never get away with.
Guess that doesn’t bother you as long as the politics of the bad guy fit your pistol.
And Lewinsky testified that Clinton had contact with her breasts and genitalia, making his denial false.
And making his testimony before the grand jury false as well.
Remember the saying from those days - if you didn’t leave your feet you didn’t cheat.
They tried to defend Clinton with that one.
[Starr's] post-Clinton impeachment career certainly had its flaws
Understatement of the year.
What he covered up at Baylor far exceeded any sexual misconduct by Clinton.
And of course he helped Epstein carry on as well.
Not a man to be admired.
I suppose he was a lawyer for Epstein?
Well, he stopped being Epstein's lawyer some time ago.
"At the same time, I believed then and still believe now that Clinton's offenses weren't grave enough to justify impeachment and removal (Donald Trump's were far worse)."
I think perhaps you're suffering from a partial recollection of just how many and diverse Clinton's offenses really were.
He didn't just commit perjury himself. He also suborned perjury by others, had the White House staff tracking down and destroying evidence in the same case. And that's just in the Lewinski case; Remember the Rose law firm billing records showing up in the library room, magically just a couple days after the statute of limitations expired? You really think that was by accident?
Indeed, it's remarkable that he could be so confident that his staff would gladly obstruct justice if asked. Almost as though all those previous cases against Clinton that had petered out in a morass of missing evidence and witnesses going to jail rather than testify were the result of a well oiled obstruction of justice machine...
IOW, he didn't just lie under oath, he corrupted the Executive branch.
Omg, no. Try tattling to the sheriff next time an opposing party doesn’t say exactly what you want in deposition during discovery. Nobody like a tattletale!!
Sour grapes.
Clinton’s was the most intimately and extensively investigated Administration in history. And now many Clinton Administration officials actually got indicted?
(answer: zero)
Ah I forgot how the left liked to conveniently argue:
1) women have personal agency and can do anything a man can do
2) women have agency over their sex lives and can regulate that as they see fit
3) BUT, except when not applicable, women also do not have any sexual agency and are constant victims of the patriarchy
4) AND, women have no idea what they are doing, despite 1 and 2, when it comes to their sex lives and are to be viewed as victims in any circumstance that does not benefit them.
5) AND, it is completely fine for cucks to go clutching at the pearls to defend this infantilization of women's sexuality when it is politically expedient to do so.
6) AND, there is nothing sexist about flipping the rhetorical coin any time it helps the Left.
Obviously Monica had no idea what she was doing when she engaged in various sexual acts with Clinton and was so awed by Clinton's power and stature that she cannot be held the least bit personally responsible for those activities because she is just a girl.
Huh, that sounds pretty sexist in retrospect, right?.....
Please tell me that you are NOT a general counsel to any employer.
I am General Counsel to Truth, Inc.
JFC
I knew you couldn't handle The Truth!
He went from chasing Bill Clinton's affair (defensible) to presiding at Rape U. (asshole) to defending Trump (asslicker).
A typical "family values" Republican.
He appears to have been a well-educated piece of shit.
The I would think the later two brands you gave him would be of high regard in your progressive utopia....
Liberals seem obsessed with both.....
RE: "He did have "sexual relations with that woman" and he did commit perjury about it (unless you adopt Clinton's highly idiosyncratic and convenient redefinition of what counts as "sexual relations")."
As I recall, it wasn't Clinton's highly idiosyncratic and convenient redefinition. It was the judge's highly idiosyncratic and convenient redefinition. And the judge (Susan Webber Wright) got the text of the highly idiosyncratic and convenient definition from PAULA JONES' legal team (Judge Wright only approved one part of a three-part definition which Jones' team suggested).
That one does not make fun of or criticize conservatives, Mr. Toad, so I have a hunch the Volokh Conspiracy's Board of Censors will allow it.
One really good thing that came out of the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal was it many Americans aware of the power of forensic DNA-chemistry. It was terrific PR for biotech!
Ilya Somin insists that the Starr report “was mostly right about Bill Clinton,” which raises a few questions:
1) Somin says that Clinton did commit perjury. Does that mean he disagrees with the decision by the Office of the Independent Counsel to not indict Bill Clinton?
2) The report lists eleven possible grounds for impeachment: four of involving perjury, six involving other crimes, and one failure to “faithfully execute the laws.” Somin doesn't claim Clinton was guilty of any crime other than perjury. Does he think that Clinton was guilty of other crimes, or does he think that being right about perjury alone can be considered “mostly right?”
3) On a side note, Somin rejects the “then-common view that Starr was delving into these details of the sexual relations out of some kind of prurient interest or obsession with sex.” Can he name anyone who held this supposedly common view? Larry Flynt's letter to Ken Starr (sample quote: “Your keen aptitude and relentless focus on disseminating pornographic materials is an inspiration to every employee at Hustler.”) doesn't count because it's clearly satirical. Neither does the claim by the President's lawyers that, “The Referral is so loaded with irrelevant and unnecessary graphic and salacious allegations that only one conclusion is possible: its principal purpose is to damage the President.”
1) Starr didn't decline to indict Clinton on account of thinking him not guilty, you know, but instead because he was a sitting President.
2) I think Somin has just forgotten about every other crime Clinton was reasonably thought to have committed.
3) It was a routine claim by Democratic partisans.
Clinton committed the crime of making America great again…and Bush then attempted to destroy America while making China great again.
1) The Office of the Independent Council declined to indict Clinton after Clinton left office. Starr was no longer involved in the investigation, but the OIC lawyers who made the decision not to indict had every bit of evidence that was available to Starr.
2) As I recall, the report contained no solid evidence that Clinton had committed other crimes. And the OIC, which (unlike me) reviewed all of the evidence carefully, decided not to indict Clinton for any of the possible crimes listed in the report.
3) If it was routine, why don't you or Somin cite examples? Are you sure you aren't just misremembering statements like the ones I quoted?
"Starr didn't decline to indict Clinton on account of thinking him not guilty, you know, but instead because he was a sitting President."
Starr's successor, Robert Ray, negotiated an agreement not to prosecute Clinton after he left office. Clinton agreed to a voluntary suspension of his law license (an asset he no longer needed -- he wasn't about to resume practicing law). I suspect that Mr. Ray had doubts about the likelihood of conviction.
He just died? Wow, I did not know that. You’re telling me this for the first time. He led an amazing life. What else can you say. Whether you agree or not, he was an amazing man who led an amazing life. I’m actually sad to hear that. I’m sad to hear that.
*** blue jean baby, LA lady, seamstress for the band …***
Not many people can claim to have precipitated an impeachment, enabled wanton rapists, and capped a career by kissing Donald Trump's ass in a manner that made Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham jealous.
Speaking of wanton . . .
Carry on, clingers.
"Speaking of wanton . . ."
I wonder if they have wontons at Nordstrom's.
I got a few off Wayfair really cheap. Highly recommended product!
I wrote this counterfactual a while back:
The impeachment of Bill Clinton, followed by his resignation, gave President Al Gore a huge incumbency advantage in the 2000 election. Try as he might, George W Bush did not seem presidential enough. In addition, the feeling amongst much of the country that Clinton was forced to step down by a partisan Congress merely for lying about sex turned some independents away from the GOP.
The first few years of the Gore (elected) presidency passed without incident, though the GOP criticised Gore for unnecessarily offending Saudi Arabia after the FBI busted a terrorist ring who it was alleged had been planning a far-fetched idea to seize US airplanes and crash them into buildings. Relations between the Saudis and the US remained frosty for a number of years.
The economy was fairly strong for much of Gore's two full terms, and he had the luxury of running a Federal surplus for much of the time - which came in useful when government intervention was required to bail out the financial services industry.
With international affairs being relatively calm, though the Middle East still festered and the cold war between Iran and Saddam Hussein's Iraq showed no sign of abating, and the domestic economy being in generally good shape, the candidates for the 2008 election presented themselves in terms of being a safe pair of hands rather than as inspirational leaders.
Vice-president Biden, who had taken over as VP when Joe Lieberman had to step down for reasons of health, early on seemed to have the advantage over the Republican Mitt Romney, but after Romney announced that he was going to institute Romneycare nationwide, a move backed by all sections of his party, momentum shifted, and Biden's jovial gaffes didn't compare well with Romney's impression of executive competence.
The implementation of Romneycare secured Romney's re-election, and led to an electoral revival for a new and engaged moderate GOP.
Exactly, which is why Gingrich would have attempted to get Gore removed which would have installed Gingrich as president.
Bill Clinton unquestionably committed perjury, a felony. (And likely, along with any number of his associates, obstruction of justice). Starr did not pursue indictments. Neither did the George W. Bush Justice Department, despite being headed by men the Left at the time demonized like John Ashcroft and Alberto Gonzalez. It is curious that "Bushhitler", if he were half the villain the Left at the time said he was, would not have gone after the man who had defeated his father in his presidential re-election bid. (Somin's childish assertion that Trump's transgressions were "much worse" is one based on his feelings, not the law.)
I remember some years after the Clinton impeachment, a U.S. Attorney telling me that jurors now felt that perjury was "no big deal", a result of the Clinton affair. And yet, I believe the decision not to pursue Clinton was the correct one, as it would have been very bad to put the country through that trauma. Those were different times, when our ruling elites were smarter and less petulant.
It's been going on since Nixon: Administrations hold prior administrations harmless for their crimes, in the expectation that the next administration will hold them harmless, too.
This is just one of the norms Biden is destroying, but I'm honestly glad to see it destroyed, I hope it doesn't rise from the dead the next time a Republican is President.
Both Clintons were subject to criminal investigations while a Republican was president. Don’t you remember Comey investigating Bill over Pardongate??
Bush stole an election and lied us into a war which killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims all the while selling us out to China!?! Are you a member of Al Qaida??
Perhaps the rot started when Ford pardoned Nixon.
Why no mention by anyone of Brett Kavanaugh's role in Starr's investigation of Clinton? Kavanacharge at Baylorugh, Starr's principle deputy who would go on to be Trump's choice for the SCt, urged Starr to leave out no salacious details to embarrass the Clintons. Thus, did we learn that Bill ejaculated in Monica's mouth. Meanwhile, when Starr was in charge at Baylor, a number of coeds were raped by Baylor football players.
The Starr Report and Maxim magazine. 😉
Prof. Somin speculates "Even a very small boost would have been enough to net Gore the extra few hundred votes needed to win Florida in 2000 and defeat Bush."
The NORC study of the Florida ballots concluded that, had the full recount been conducted, it is likely that Gore would have won Florida. I'm not sure that a few hundred more votes/ballots would have made any difference to the Supreme Court decision to stop the count.
The Elian Gonzalez drama also played a role and now Republicans would never support him being given citizenship…although who knows because most have fried brains from immersing themselves in the right wing echo chamber.
A few hundred voters choosing Gore instead of Bush would have put Gore ahead in the initial tally, so he would win even without a recount.
Possibly, assuming that there were no hanging chads or other problems with the wacky ballots Florida used at the time! I simply did not want us to forget that an actual recount would likely have provided those few votes for Gore, without needing to rustle up any additional voters.
I suspect that one of Bill Clinton's greatest regrets is not having held out for a girlfriend who swallowed.
Politicians aren't interested in that, so long as the voters swallow their promises.
I think he had a few more attempts at finding someone post-Presidency.....
Bill's quibbling about "sexual relations" really isn't so idiosyncratic when you take into account that he's a lawyer. What he and Monica were doing wasn't sexual relations; it was "deviate sexual activity" as defined by Arkansas Code § 5-14-101(1), and not "sexual intercourse," which is a totally different thing under § 5-14-101(12), and not at all what they were doing. Why wouldn't you expect an Arkansas lawyer to think in terms of Arkansas law in a legal proceeding? If they wanted to know about BJs or cigars, why didn't they ask about that instead of something he totally didn't do?
And then two decades later we got President "Grab 'Em By the Pussy", who got a full-throated endorsement by Gingrich and all the other Republicans who went after Clinton.
Did their morals change (for the worse) over two decades, or did they never really care? Seeing as Gingrich was actively involved in an affair at the time, I think the later.
Regardless, Starr was an asshole, and his disgrace was at his own hands.
Queen almathea
September.14.2022 at 5:24 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
If by progressives you mean all the major intelligence agencies, sure!
Joe Dallas, amateur expert in everything, from climate science to epidemiology to foreign intelligence, he knows what thousands with better accomplishments in those fields don’t!"
Just having basic knowledge, something your response indicates you lack.
Seems like a lot depends on who "they" is.
I mean, it seems like the most natural reading of that quote is "beautiful women let you grab them by the pussy..." which isn't sexual assault.
Queen almathea
September.14.2022 at 6:37 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
No, you routinely insist you’re somehow correct and hundreds (if not more) of people who’ve actually accomplished something in the relevant fields are wrong."
Queen - Nice argument - except you havent pointed out anything I have said that is incorrect, nor have stated anything that is contrary to experts in the subject matter (excluding those that have an agenda.
You have cited the multitudes of national security experts that claim the russia was trying to influence the election in favor of Trump. That includes hordes of FBI agents that failed to know that the steele dossier was bogus, That includes the multitude on Muellers team that failed to notice the Steele dossier was bogus.
That would also include the 150+ national security experts who claimed hunter's laptop was russian disinformation.
Your credibility on the subject is seriously deficient.
Queen, you mean like all the experts that declared the Hunter laptop story to be Russian disinformation?
I don't recall saying that should (or should not) be the standard - I said it was the standard.
It's literally true, even if you don't like it. The House impeachment leaders were very aggressive, then came the dirt dump on Livingston, he resigned, got replaced by Dennis Hastert, and they halted any investigations, dropped almost all the available charges, and proceeded straight to a fake trial where they didn't even bother presenting the evidence. It was being discussed at the time! Flynt was just a plausible cutout for the release of illegally obtained dirt on members of Congress.
And Filegate won't go away even if you like to pretend it didn't happen, either.
Interview with George Stephanopoulos:
Mr. Stephanopoulos, in his new role as an ABC News “analyst,” was telling the audience that the White House was preparing a new defense in the Monica Lewinsky scandal. “What I’ll call the Ellen Rometsch strategy,” he said.
“She was a girlfriend of John F. Kennedy who also happened to be an East German spy,” Mr. Stephanopoulos explained. “And Robert Kennedy was charged with getting her out of the country and also getting John Edgar Hoover to go to the Congress and say, don’t investigate this because if you do, we’re going to open up everybody’s closets.”
Even George Will had to laugh: “Monica Lewinsky is an East German spy?”
Mr. Stephanopoulos came back with a theory. “The President said he would never resign,” he said gravely. “And I think some around him are willing to take everybody down with him.”
This would sound less plausible if they hadn't actually taken down Livingston, followed immediately by the impeachment managers taking a dive.
Anybody's offenses look trivial if you ignore what they actually were, and substitute fake trivialities.
The fact is that the Clintons have been notoriously corrupt from their earliest days, and they didn't clean up their act when they hit the White House.
Yeah, if I'd been taken in by Russian disinfo YET AGAN I wouldn't want to admit it, either.
Sounds more like he's boasting about abusing his celebrity status to commit sexual assault.
And yet when anyone points out Trump's corruption and criminality, your response is to wave your hands about the lack of criminal convictions...
No, Brett. It's literally false. I called you on this last time you lied about this. No investigations were halted after Livingston stepped down. No charges were dropped after Livingston stepped down. The evidence was all presented at the trial. You've invented a fake timeline for a fake conspiracy.
Whoops! New talking point/conspiracy theory! The previous one was that they all knew it was bogus from the outset.
That's not what they claimed, and how do you know it isn't?