The Volokh Conspiracy
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Could John Fetterman Win a Defamation Lawsuit Against Donald Trump, for Accusing Fetterman of Hard Drug Use?
At a campaign rally, Trump said,
Fetterman supports taxpayer-funded drug dens and the complete decriminalization of illegal drugs, including heroin, cocaine, crystal meth, and ultra lethal fentanyl. By the way, he takes them himself.
The clip included above seems to support that. If the "he takes them himself" statement is false, could Fetterman (a public official) win a defamation lawsuit against Trump?
Yes, though he'd have to show, by "clear and convincing evidence," that Trump spoke "with knowledge that it was false or with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not." "Reckless disregard" in turn refers to a "high degree of awareness of … probable falsity" or "entertain[ing] serious doubts as to the truth of his publication."
"[F]ailure to investigate before publishing, even when a reasonably prudent person would have done so, is not sufficient to establish reckless disregard." But "[a]lthough failure to investigate will not alone support a finding of actual malice, the purposeful avoidance of the truth is in a different category." " [A] deliberate decision not to acquire knowledge of facts that might confirm the probable falsity of [the] charges" may well qualify as reckless disregard. (These quotes are from Harte-Hanks v. Connaughton (1989), a convenient summary by the Court of the misleadingly named "actual malice" test, which was set forth by New York Times v. Sullivan (1964).)
Now this is a subjective test—what did the speaker actually believe, and deliberately decide?—and not an inquiry into what a reasonable speaker would have done. Still, under the right circumstances, a jury can infer that the speaker must have realized the accusation was probably false (rather than just that he should have realized it), or must have deliberately decided not to investigate, and the jury can disbelieve a speaker's claim that he was sincerely sure the statement was false.
So, if Fetterman can persuade the jury the accusation was false, and can also persuade the jury (again, by clear and convincing evidence) that Trump knew it was false or probably false, Fetterman would win. (I say "would" on the assumption that the jury follows the instructions.)
On the other hand, if Fetterman can't do so—perhaps because Trump can point to some source for the accusation that the jury thinks he actually believed (whether or not he should have believed it)—then Fetterman would lose. And the case likely would go to the jury, if it's a question of whose claims or denials to believe.
Some have pointed out that this rewards the crazy or the foolish, who actually sincerely believe unreasonable claims. But that is the nature, for better or worse, of the New York Times v. Sullivan subjective test.
Note that sometimes such allegations are clearly facetious or jocular; if a reasonable listener would indeed understand them that way, then they aren't actionable. The same is true for parodies, see New Times v. Isaacks (Tex. 2004), the "Where the Wild Things Are" case. But I don't see any evidence of that here.
Of course, none of this tell us whether it's a wise move for Fetterman to sue, whether before the election or after. But that's the general legal framework.
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He should just call Fetterman a racist. Un-disprovable.
Show the recording of the epic struggle of Fettie Boy to find words. Stroke or drugs, you decide. The facts have no influence on the lawyer denier.
Fettie Boy dresses like a druggie. He has the look of sleeping on the sidewalk in Kensington, Philadelphia. He is wearing a heavy sweatshirt in high heat of summer perhaps due to shivering from being strung out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1584&v=5oK-xl84JTA&feature=emb_title
Vote for Fettie Boy, and Kensington all of PA.
Hey, lawyer denier. Fettie Boy would be required to take drug test for drug use. Since he shaves his head, hair samples would come from his genital areas.
Fettie Boy would be required to disclose the reports of his neuropsychological tests, and of his entire medical record, including drug testing on hospital admission.
He needs to take that neuropsychological test now, and to publish the report. What Dems will be voting for is his Soros inspired or even controlled staff, telling a brain zombie how to vote.
Leftists have done just that 10 trillion times.
" Leftists have done just that 10 trillion times. "
Perhaps right-wingers could make it tougher for lefties in that regard . . . say, by ditching at least a bit of the racism and other bigotry that animates the current Republican-conservative coalition.
This white, male, conservative blog is a bit overdue for using the vile racial slur it loves to publish regularly.
But only by about four or five days, by my calculations (this blog generally uses a vile racial slur about every three weeks, or every chance it thinks it can plausibly get).
I do not expect the management to deny its target audience much longer. If this blog is reliably in any respect, it involves the tossing of red meat to bigoted, backward culture war losers.
Carry on, clingers.
Opinion. That's called opinion.
Yes, because the meaning got diluted until it has no more substantive content than "motherfucker."
Nobody could get into court with a defamation claim for being called a motherfucker, because it's simply become a synonym for "I strongly dislike you," which you can't exactly disprove. "Racist" has the same meaning nowadays.
Sure, it's just become like lots and lots of other negative labels - fascist, Nazi, Communist. I don't find this particularly notable; this is how rhetoric has always worked.
There are some terms which tend to mean something, and some which don't.
"Communist" used to mean something. "Racist" used to mean something. A Communist (at least with a capital C) belonged to a party (generally Soviet-dominated, but Chinese-dominated would count) which was dedicated to bringing Marxist-Leninist principles to the U. S., by force or guile. A racist was someone who practiced racial discrimination or believed some races to be superior to others.
Now a communist is anyone who disagrees with the speaker about capitalism, and a racist is anyone who disagrees with the speaker about race, or who says "all lives matter."
Lots of words used to mean something and became more pejorative than their original meaning.
Lots of political concepts became more brand than meaning.
I suppose it's regrettable due to the ambiguity, but it's also just how rhetoric works - humans will always seize on universally villainous identities and seek to spring off of that to attack others.
It says a something about the universal condemnation of communist and Nazi and racist, I suppose
Eugene or Trump? Because this post seems pretty intent on Streisand-effecting the spurious allegations of current hard drug use by Fetterman.
Eugene seems to jealous of Blackman for some reason and is chasing him down the sewer.
The tell is the closing line: Of course, none of this tell us whether it's a wise move for Fetterman to sue, whether before the election or after. But that's the general legal framework.
Instead of something like: "Of course, regardless of whether Trump is liable, it is certainly unbecoming a national politician to throw around unfounded allegations."
Yes, because EV never comments on or writes articles on lible or slander law.
And EV's millions of readers would never hear about Trump's allegation otherwise.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-trump-john-fetterman-drugs_n_631603efe4b0faa556bfad44
The ready-made Trump defense:
Trump spoke with his usual disregard for knowledge. And it's not a reckless disregard because that requires a "high degree of awareness," another thing to Trump that is like garlic to a vampire.
It's the civil equivalent of shooting someone on 5th Avenue.
Yeah Trump is an idiot that has no idea about anything he talks about....that is until they need Trump to have some kind of clue then he is an omnipotent human with superhuman knowledge.
This stuff is straight out of 1984. Who is Oceania at war with now?
He's not an idiot. He suffers from diarreha of the mouth caused by being a man-baby who cares only about himself.
Why do you think you can read Trump's mind? Earnest question.
I mean, Trump is one of the most public people in existence. We've heard him speak (and tweet) his thoughts many thousands of times over the last 7 years. Why do you think it would be tough to draw reasonable inferences about what he thinks?
As well as his entire life story evinces not one whit of regard for anyone beyond himself. If you can't draw inferences from that, then Kleppe should not make any assumptions about what any other sentient being is thinking. Ever.
It’s pretty similar to the right with Obama. He was a mindless nincompoop except when he was a closet Stalinist except when he was an Islamic sleeper agent.
Once you’ve decided someone is just ‘bad’ it’s all to easy to buy into whatever negative label anyone wants to slap on them - whether it makes sense or not.
Or Biden, a senile ineffective fart who's about to round them up in cattle-cars.
Could you point me to anyone, other than Trump, who has claimed Trump is an omnipotent human with superhuman knowledge?
It would seem "reckless disregard" should be expanded to cover what Harry Frankfurt described in his excellent book "On Bullshit". Volokh quotes "reckless disregard" as requiring a "high degree of awareness of … probable falsity" or "entertain[ing] serious doubts as to the truth of his publication." It seems like it should include "bullshit" which Frankfurt describes as an indifference to falsity, a willingness to say whatever seems to the speaker's advantage. Truth or falsity is simply irrelevant to Trump. He does not have a "high degree of awareness of ... probable falsity", he has no awareness at all of truth or falsity. Should the law then allow him to say whatever he feels like about anybody?
Eugene,
Would Fetterman be potentially liable if he responded to Trump's statement with something along the lines of, "Is Trump a child molester? Did he put his penis into a 9-year-old boy's mouth on Jan 4, 2014? The answer is: Trump sexually abusing helpless little boys is EXACTLY as accurate and truthful as the claim that I take heroin, cocaine, crystal meth, and fentanyl."
[Assuming, of course, that Fetterman does not, and did not in the past, take any of those listed drugs, of course. If Trump is lying about 3 of them, but Fetterman did/does use cocaine--even on rare occasions--then the above comparison is no longer valid...Trump's slander is arguably 25% accurate, while Fetterman's replying slander would be 0% accurate.]
One of Trump's most effective ways of attack is to phrase things as merely questions, raised by something Trump has seen or heard in the past. He used this to great effect when trying as an outsider to get the Republican nomination in 2016. "People are saying that low-energy Jeb Bush has had a stroke." And sometimes Trump would follow that up with, "Is that true? I don't know." Of course, with the internet, a scummy candidate could find just about *any* false allegation somewhere online. As Eugene notes in his OP, the malice test is not objective (ie, would a reasonable idiot understand that this blog post from Crazy Person X is false?)...if Trump is not corrupt, and is merely a gullible moron, then he wins under the Sullivan standard.
I see a real danger that things will get worse and worse, as politicians see advantages to combing the internet, looking for vile falsehoods to use against their opponents. With little-to-zero civil risk. (And, if you know you're a longshot candidate, why not take that risk; since you know you're not going to win, absent some sea-change.) "I see that people are saying that my opponent buggers sheep. Is that true? Gosh, I hope not. But can we take the risk? Do you really want, on election day, to risk electing a sheep-fucker as our town's prosecutor? Think of the children!!!"
Donald Trump: So many lies, so litttle time.
Donald Trump supporters: So many losers, limited time until replacement.
Haha....its funny to call people you don't agree with "losers" but when they trash you it is no longer funny. Leftists have the thinnest skin ever.
I was referring to their loss in the American culture war, which makes them losers.
"Thinnest skin ever" belongs to your hero.
Is it funny to call people you don't agree with drug users or if that's too much just darkly hint there's something 'off' about them because they've had health problems and wear a hoody?
"limited time until replacement"
I was told by the American news media that this is a racist, alt-right conspiracy theory. But Artie here plays with his cards face up.
The replacement I describe is the natural course in America. Cranky old right-wingers take their stale, disgusting thinking to the grave in that natural course, and are replaced -- in our electorate, on 18th birthdays, and in our population, at birth or immigration -- by younger, better, less bigoted, less religious, less rural, less backward, more diverse Americans.
No plot. No conspiracy. No plan. Just the normal course of American improvement.
Clingers hardest hit.
So many haters, no one listens to anything they say any more
I have to agree.
Its just as bad as Harry Reid claiming that he knew for a fact that Mitt Romney didn't pay any taxes.
Of course it is possible Trump has some source that has seen Fetterman use drugs, someone who saw him at a party in the 80's or 90's, that's hardly unlikely, given the prevalence of cocaine in decades past.
"I agree, now look left, 10 years ago."
Quite the reach.
I don't think its much of a reach:
Prominent politician making unfounded allegations about a candidate for federal office during the middle of a campaign without presenting a scintilla of evidence.
As bad as our politics are its not that common.
He had proof of Fetterman's drug use but the FBI took it.
Trump continues to impress with his ability to attract trouble. He's like a magnet for outrage. Honestly, I have no idea why anyone would even want to be in the same room with him, much less have him as their leader. But I have so, so many friends who just lap it up. Rather sad, actually. *sigh*
I once said that Donald Trump was the middle-finger candidate, and later the middle-finger president. He is the means that many people vicariously give the middle finger to those they believe deserve it. Even if a middle finger is rude and crude, and something your mother would have slapped you for holding up when you were a kid.
That is correct, the middle finger. To the lawyer profession destroying the American family and way of life, to the Ivy indoctrinated superior people who sincerely believe they can tell people how to live, to the tech billionaires sucking the air out of the economy, importing illegales to crush wages for everyone up to professionals, to the Deep State which is just the Mafia that has infiltrated our government.
Middle finger is not enough. A baseball bat is needed.
Ah, yes, Trump so famously reluctant to use lawyers to get his way.
This is yet another thing about my Trump-supporting friends that I find completely mystifying: their desire for blood. Now, if we were in a fight to the death with an enemy who was trying to kill us, then calling for blood would make sense. Kill or be killed. Of course, anyone who has been at the wrong end of a knife fight understands the downright necessity of fighting under those conditions.
But outside that context, calling for blood is ugly, dangerous, and utterly inappropriate. It can easily flip in the blink of an eye to criminal behavior.
Such loose talk -- and the emotions that go with them -- are wildly out of place right now. There's only one thing needed to resolve our political differences, and that's an election. Spend your energies on securing and opening up that process, not on talk about bats (which will soon turn to knives and bullets.)
If it's false, Fetterman should have the same right as Joe Sixpack to collect damages against Trump. To avoid the risk of wrongful lawsuits, institute loser pays.
(Trump himself would agree if it was the NYT accusing him of something)
With all its creativity in interpreting the Constitution, why can't the Supreme Court ditch the Sullivan rule and require loser-pays in defamation cases instead? It wouldn't be any more activist than Sullivan.
What possible argument could there be that a loser pays system is constitutionally required, and what does that have to do with whether or not Sullivan stays good law?
Penumbras and emanations, dude, the next thing you know...loser pays!
Love it when folks here make shit arguments and when called on it just appeal to liberals bad.
It's not even nihilism, it's just being unable to admit you were wrong.
No, I'm quite right. I'll repeat:
"With all its creativity in interpreting the Constitution, why can't the Supreme Court ditch the Sullivan rule and require loser-pays in defamation cases instead? It wouldn't be any more activist than Sullivan."
What possible reasoning can you come up with that rewriting marriage laws, say, is OK but imposing loser pays is a bridge too far?
So when asked what the legal reasoning could be, your reasoning was 'liberals are bad and have no reasoning.'
First, what someone else is doing shouldn't change your own principles.
Second, I'm sorry you can't see equal protection of the laws meaning that gays also get to enjoy marriage. But there is plenty of writing on the specifics of the reasoning out there. I can't help it if you haven't chosen to engage with any of it.
I'll just ignore the hostility and pretend you're asking serious questions.
I'm suggesting we work with what we have - given an activist jurisprudence, why not use that jurisprudence to promote fair results?
If they *must* have a living Constitution, why not live so it can promote "equal protection" between plaintiff and defendant in defamation cases? Plaintiff gets to collect from the defendant if plaintiff wins, so wouldn't it be equal for defendant to collect from the plaintiff if defendant wins?
In fact, if we interpret the Constitution against the natural-law principle that there is no wrong without a remedy, then even a non-penumbras-and-emanations person could decide that for the wrong of being falsely sued, there should be a remedy in the form of $$$.
I know you're determined to be hostile, but I hope some of the other commenters can see the merit in what I'm saying.
I'm hostile because you're strawmanning the law.
Judicial activism has become as meaningless as racism - it means any ruling you don't like.
There are lots and lots of cabinned ways to understand the Constitution beyond originalism. It's a common trick of the political flavor of originalists to claim that it's originalism or anything goes. Funny, nonoriginalist decisions don't write like that. Heck, Breyer wrote a book about his non-originalist jurisprudence.
Will Baud is an originalist who via original public meaning believes that the natural drift of following precedent is an intended way for the Constitution to keep with the times.
the natural-law principle
You want to talk about having no cognizable theory. What the natural law entails is idiosyncratic to each individual - hardly a recipe for a coherent jurisprudence. Or you're instantiating theocracy. Which is also bad. And not originalist.
Now you're straw-manning me as an originalist, and making these extensive arguments against a position I am not defending, all the while complaining about straw-manning.
And you also straw-man the classical legal tradition, which needs no defense from me since there's so much material about it starting with Cicero (and I link in a different thread to a summary of an article on Cicero, but you haven't been very nice, so I won't share that link again).
You're calling all living constitutionalists unprincipled at best, I think it's pretty fair to say that you are not one of those. I suppose you could be a natural law positivist, and thus not care what the Founders thought. That'd be a trip.
And if you don't, you do a great impression of the usual originalist attacks on other theories of jurisprudence.
The classical legal tradition is not some totem to waive as you decide natural law is the best. You need to do more than just lean on Cicero - explain how this system of natural law works.
The Roman Republic was cool and all, but their ideas of natural law were not ours. Is that some kind of living natural law system then?
The Margrave, you're being incoherent.
If you think loser pays is a good idea, argue that.
If you just want to make a point that you think that current Supreme Court jurisprudence is hopelessly infected with "living Constitution" standardless importation of rights, then explain why your jurisprudence (apparently not based in originalism) is superior.
But by mixing those two points together, you are doing a terrible job of being remotely convincing on either.
"a natural law positivist"
Sounds like some kind of chimera to me. The body of a lion, the wings of a raven, the snout of a crocodile, you know, the sort of thing they'll be able to fix up in a lab soon (if they haven't already).
Obviously, you haven't really been reading up on the literature, have you?
"You're calling all living constitutionalists unprincipled at best"
My *original intent* was to call them extraordinarily flexible when it came to attaining what they considered justice. It was my understanding that this flexibility was on behalf of a particular vision, and I don't recall calling that vision unprincipled, though I could think of other terms (like "wrong").
But I've heard living-constitutionalists on this very forum boast, not admit, but boast - that their approach allowed lots of flexibility. They specifically critiqued the amendment procedure as too difficult and cumbersome and contrasted it with their vision of constitutional interpretation. That *is* the principle for some of them.
So I disagreed with certain ideas (flexibility in pursuit of supposed progress), but to ratchet up the outrage, you rushed in to say "OMG you're calling us unprincipled, just like all those other awful originalists are saying!"
If your willingness to manufacture offense and create straw men is typical of the faction, maybe living-constitutionalists *are* unprincipled. Or maybe it's just you.
"The Roman Republic was cool and all"
Oh, my, it's back to the straw-manning. I invoked Cicero in a previous thread to show that belief in fundamental underlying principles of justice wasn't invented by Christians. Nor was the idea of constructing positive-law principles with natural law as a backdrop.
Note that in the article synopsis I linked in an earlier thread (and I think I'll just have you root around for it - I'd give you a link if you'd been nicer), Cicero was represented as proposing positive laws which didn't fully fit natural law, but were an attempt to use natural law as background while making some pragmatic compromises watering down full purity.
NOVA Lawyer,
I simply think that if the Supreme Court is flexible enough to adopt new principles in defamation law, why not use that flexibility to establish loser pays in defamation cases, rather than making it harder for public figures (like Fetterman) to win against false accusers (which I'm presuming Trump to be)?
I even threw in parenthetical remark against Trump (see September.5.2022 at 4:38 pm), yet throwing this incense on the anti-Trump altar didn't seem to appease those who were absolutely determined to take personal offense.
In fact, I *wish* the living constitution crowd was unprincipled, instead of simply having bad principles.
An unprincipled person would get things right more often, if only by chance, than someone determined to double down on bad principles.
Of course, if you rummage around in the living constitution principles, you'll find some good ideas - even some ideas they could have found in the Constitution without contortionism. Incorporation of most of the Bill of Rights, for instance. An excellent idea and probably representing the best interpretation of the 14th Amendment.
Likewise with the exclusionary rule - no need to chin-stroke about whether it would lead to systemic reforms beyond the particular case, that wouldn't matter, since the text says "shall not be violated," and someone who goes to prison based on illegally-seized evidence certainly seems to have had his right against illegal searches violated. Regardless of whether letting him go would promote systemic reform.
But I don't think we get a lot of cases of living constitutionalism getting good bottom-line results. Just being random and unprincipled would get a higher proportion of good outcomes.
Living Constitution is not a single principle - it's a group of utterly different philosophies defined basically by not being originalist.
And your natural law concept you argue for seems carefully undefined. Positivist and...that's it!
You don't know what you're talking about. Which is fine, but you don't seem willing to learn.
How much have you learned from your consultation of sources about the classical tradition?
What do you think of the work of R. H. Helmholz at the University of Chicago Law School? I assume you've read it.
What about other sources on the development of Roman-Canon law in Europe, and the relation of these to the common law? Surely you've studied this!
What enlightenment have you derived from your study of the Ius & Iustitium blog? Presumably you follow this.
After all, if I'm ignorant, and I've read these sources, then being enlightened, you surely have at least as much knowledge as me; it would be inconceivable that you have less knowledge than an ignorant person.
Or is it that you don't even know what you don't know?
I've also read the works of originalists and living constitutionalists. Tribe is the highest profile example for the latter. I've even studied his defense of abortion rights from a living-constitutionalist perspective. I checked out the work of Berger and Bork. Though most of the constitutional law sources I've read are from the living-constitution perspective.
Then educate me. Don't just cite stuff I haven't read - you haven't read a bunch of stuff I'm into I'm sure. Academic dickwaiving is not needed - I'm interacting with your comments, and seeing them lacking, if verbose.
So far I see you citing Cicero for authority, and the idea that positivism does not require a constitution.
Awesome - now, how do you derive natural law in a way that isn't idiosyncratic to each person? A lot of natural law concepts are from back when divine inspiration was considered a universal and agreed on source of truth. I'm not sure that plays nowadays.
And please read more than originalists when trying to understand what living constitutionalism means. Or at least don't crap on it without checking out what it's proponents say. (e.g. that it's not a singular doctrine at all).
"And please read more than originalists when trying to understand what living constitutionalism means."
You haven't read my comment at all.
You're quite wrong. Imposing a general "loser pays" rule is a legislative power, not a judicial one. Since most defamation litigation is in state courts, such a thing would require a lot of legislation. The idea that the Court should "creatively" make such a rule is a terrible one that you should feel stupid for entertaining.
If they can do Sullivan, they can do loser pays. I said they should do the latter to replace the former, if they're going to rewrite defamation laws.
By your reasoning, justices who exercise the legislative power in lieu of interpreting the law are all stupid.
Naturally, the Court could always drop its living-constitution schtick and get rid out of the business of rewriting laws on libel, marriage, etc. That would be nice, but then, so it would also be nice if the Volokh comment section became intelligent.
Loser pays often wouldn't chill abusive lawsuits. It takes a lot of time and money to try a lawsuit, time and money that most people don't have. Even in lawsuits that are clearly SLAPPS - see Vic Mignogna for example - it takes years to work through it.
Sure...better than not having it at all.
Doubtful. Because if loser pays, then Fetterman is less likely to sue Trump, even if the allegations are provably, 100% false, because, as Eugene so helpfully points out, all Trump has to do to win is find some OAN anchor or blog post somewhere who said maybe Fetterman does use hard drugs. Then Fetterman loses and, in layman terms, he was slandered, but he also has to pay Trump's legal fees.
Loser pays would tend to benefit highly litigious people like Trump who have deep pockets, no regard for the truth, and an infinite capacity to believe the implausible.
Trump could say nearly anything about nearly anyone and he would be more likely to get paid than to pay (or, at least, would be less likely to have to defend his spurious allegations). That doesn't seem like an improvement over: Trump can say nearly anything about nearly anyone and he won't ever have to pay a liable judgment (but may have to defend his spurious allegations in court and, hence, incur legal fees).
My idea was to *replace* the Sullivan rule with loser pays.
A fair trade, I think. More than fair.
My original remark started off as follows:
"If it's false, Fetterman should have the same right as Joe Sixpack to collect damages against Trump. To avoid the risk of wrongful lawsuits, institute loser pays."
This seems quite fair (and anti-Trump, too, so we know it's a good idea!).
1. "Wouldn't completely eliminate" ≠ "wouldn't chill".
2. The prospect of being made whole would at least mitigate the harm of being subjected to an unreasonably brought (or defended) suit.
I think this is an example where a person says something completely false and so outrageous that they get away with it. It reminds me of Guiliani and Powel saying that their statement on election fraud were so outrageous that no one could believe the statements were true. Trump would likely use the same defense.
There appears to be a reasonable prospect that Giuliani, Powell, and a few other members of Trump Litigation: Elite Strike Force will not "get away with it;" instead, they may lose their entitlement to practice law and perhaps be required to pay in cash for their disgusting conduct.
Let's see whether Prof. Volokh congratulates the lawyers who arrange accountability for those assholes.
Didn't LBJ once call an opponent a "pig-fucker?" According to the story, a staffer asked, "You don't really think he's a pig-fucker, do you?"
"No," came the reply, "I just want to hear him deny it."
As I heard it, LBJ merely encouraged his team to spread the rumour, but with the same punchline
You know what it means if you have to deny that you’re a goat fucker.
"Them sheep are all liars."
I guess it depends on where Fetterman can establish venue and jurisdiction. If he can pick DC or NYC or some similarly feverishly Democrat venue, he will win no matter what the evidence is. Fetterman would win even if he was smoking crack cocaine in the courtroom during the trial.
If you are suggesting that most people have strong cause to despise Donald Trump, you might have a good point.
Same if Trump is able to have his cases heard by judges he picked in states like Florida.
perhaps because Trump can point to some source for the accusation that the jury thinks he actually believed (whether or not he should have believed it)
There could be an interesting twist here. Trump has gone on record as attacking the press as unreliable. So if he points to a source that he has attacked, arguably his reliance on that makes him reckless.
This is exactly the behavior progs have been doing for decades. You want to jump to sack cloth and ashes with wailing lamentations? Fine, clean up your own house first. Is this any different than the constant references to Trump as Hitler? 3 and 1/2 years of a phony investigation progs knew before it even started that it was a Dem creation?
Your real issue with Trump in not that he does the very same things you do, it's that he has the temerity to do so. How dare Trump treat progs the same way they treat others!!! Only extra fluffy special progs can do that.
If Trump is such a truly evil person, why were all the progs - who now revile him - lining up for money and face time before he ran for president?
You sound like a disaffected culture war casualty, Goju. Maybe find a calming hobby to consume the time you have left before replacement. By your betters.
Once again a comment without saying anything. Could you at least use one or two brain cells to come up with something not so repetitive and boring? Surely there are people who believe you actually have one or two such functioning brain cells. No one on this blog, of course, but surely someone somewhere.
I observed that you sound like the kind of obsolete right-wing bigot who nuzzle Trump's privates in a desperate attempt to remain relevant as better Americans pass you by. Plenty of substance; entirely accurate.
Is this the better Americans that are losing control of schoolboards and very soon the House and Senate?
You have an interesting coping mechanism.
Can you point to some Latin American city or African city that you're using as your model to compare and contrast against us regular white folks?
I mean I'm just curious as to how you're judging these people as our betters.
First I would point out that Trump's statement..that "Fetterman supports...the complete decriminalization of illegal drugs, including heroin, cocaine, crystal meth, and ultra lethal fentanyl. By the way, he takes them himself"...is capable of being taken more than one way. Does the "he takes them himself" refer to "illegal drugs", or to the subset of hard drugs listed?
Without ever thought about it before today, I suspect that it would be more difficult for Fetterman to deny having ever smoked pot, rather than having ever used, say, heroin. Perhaps he never did any drugs, I have no idea. But a lot more people in his demographic have smoked pot than haven't and it would seem less plausible to a jury to deny a lifetime of non-drug use in this day and age. (For that matter, a not insignificant number of well-to-do white guys coming of age in the suburbs in the 1980's did cocaine, as well. But if Trump's statement referred to the enumerated subset rather than illegal drugs in general, he said "them", i.e., more than one of the listed drugs.)
Also,in order to prevail would Fetterman have to prove a negative or could he require the Trump-defendant to come up with affirmative evidence supporting the allegation?
Finally, Trump's claim that Fetterman advocates the legalization of the hard drugs enumerated is itself false, so far as I am aware.
Trump never seems particularly burdened by the truth. He is fortunate to have such gullible, stupid, low-character followers.
If that's the best defense they've got, I would much rather be on Fetterman's legal team than Trump's.
I'm not 100% sure of your point, but if Fetterman's defense is that he never in his life smoked pot (i.e., if "illegal drugs" writ large is how Trump's statement is interpreted in an entirely fair grammatical way) then, yes, I'd be willing to take Fetterman on based on that assertion.
We're so inured to his utter disregard for the truth, it's amazing to see how his words are treated versus Biden's.
Fetterman says he would legalize all drugs, including heroin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0HJxaKUc-o
Is this speculation necessary and does it serve any purpose? Will there be a quiz?
You're welcome to a full refund.
Hey, I specifically joined for the double your money back guarantee.
You came for the gay-bashing and misogyny, stayed for the right-wing racism, the xenophobia, and the incessant, disaffected whining about the liberal-libertarian mainstream.
Or vice versa.
OK, that there is funny.
If you want to fill in the blanks here as to why Trump seems to have used some off hand remark, it is because there is something off about Fettermen that the corporate media has been largely ignoring. A man his age should not be having a life threatening stroke. He was other unexplained behavioral and physical issues. The selection of "hoodie" is also not purely a style decision. It points to some kinds of particular ailments he is hoping to obscure from the public.
Is it "hard" drug use? Who knows (maybe Trump does though or the Republicans have found something on him that has yet to be publicly disclosed). I wouldn't go around touting that in public, even though if Sarah Palin can't prove actual malice when the NYT basically wrote "actual malice" in their internal justifications for their hit piece, no one should be able to provide it in a court of law.
Point being, something is literally being covered up and glossed over because the Dems desperately need that seat. But it is obvious to anyone who has at least three brain cells that something is up with that man that has not been publicly disclosed.
It's almost like a competent republicans might have been able to win the race.
Thank you Mr. Trump!
Downscale, disaffected, desperate, delusional conspiracy theorists are among my favorite culture war casualties . . . and this white, male, right-wing blog's favorite audience!
I know John Fetterman well enough to have had dinner with him more than once and attended board meetings with him. His wardrobe has tended toward hoodies, shirts that resemble factory worker or mechanic uniforms, boots, shorts, and more shorts for many years.
You are a shit-rate right-wing bigot, Jimmy the Dane, a stain and drain on our society. I would expect to find you are a half-educated, economically inadequate, antisocial jerk in addition to a racist, gay-bashing, xenophobic Republican. You are not a quarter the man John Fetterman is. I will applaud your replacement.
Other than that, though, great comment, clinger!
Your banal, predictable, boring, and lame commentary still does nothing to disprove my point other then offering more proof that something is up with Fetterman.
Fetterman seems positioned to kick the shit out of another celebrity snake oil salesman -- seriously, what kind of no-quality asshole do you have to be to waste your training as a physician to sell bullshit "miracle cures" and "magic diet pills" on television, especially after marrying into a fortune?.
The kind of no-quality asshole who gets nominated by bigoted, half-educated Republicans and endorsed by fellow grifter Trump, the evidence indicates.
Carry on, clingers. So far as bigotry and superstition can carry anyone or anything in modern America, that is.
I don't think Oz is that great of a candidate and I have no idea why the Republicans are inclined to run guys like him, but anyway that is a systemic issue with the Republican party.
As for selling people lies, the left has made that their SOP for about 100 years now. It has just become so engrained in everything that we just sort of treat it as part of the system now. Time for a reboot and to get rid of the garbage.
"It has just become so engrained in everything that we just sort of treat it as part of the system now."
No, what you do is begin and end your analysis with "Democrats bad". Every time. Even when you acknowledge Oz sucks, you have to throw in a generic "Democrats bad" paragraph.
The next time you kick in for a 10x matching donation, maybe you should s the if you can get an answer?
'I have no idea why'
It's because it's Trump's party now.
there is something off about Trump that the corporate media has been largely ignoring. A man his age should not be having the speaking issues he does, nor stand like that. He was other unexplained behavioral and physical issues. The selection of "orange" is also not purely a style decision. It points to some kinds of particular ailments he is hoping to obscure from the public.
That was a routine accusation bandied about by the left for the last five years. Of course, we know that was to undermine his legitimacy and if there was something there unfortunately it was obscured by their blind hatred of him. That is why hatred does not make a good political force beyond compelling people to go to the polls to "fight" against whatever is supposed to be hated. It also makes those who are inclined not to be duped not believe you about anything else.
Oh, the media also ignores when Biden falls down stairs (three times!) and tries to shake hands with the air. But, who is counting!
And you're not trying to undermine Fetterman's legacy? Everything you accuse the left of, you just did above. And tried to do again with Biden just here.
If you think the left is in bad faith when accusing Trump, are you in bad faith here? Because they seem indistinguishable.
Hatred of this country is all you have these days, pretty rich to complain about it now.
How do I preach hatred? Am I disappointed in this country? Sure. We have let the idiots and children run it for far too long. That is far from hatred though.
Fetterman's legacy? Ha, It doesn't need undermined its crap.
The other day Trump claimed he had met with Mark Zuckerberg in the White House "last week."
Trump often throws in long spontaneous parentheticals in his speeches -- I'll charitably surmise you're just regurgitating breathless headlines and haven't actually looked at this one. Here's the full context from the transcript:
Is there any part of any of his speeches that can be excerpted that isn't pure bullshit from start to finish? Zuckerberg did visit Trump in the White House, didn't he? If so, that's the only true thing there.
"Last week,....Mark Zuckerberg confessed that in 2020, the FBI went to Facebook and the media and gave them the false narrative that the Hunter Biden laptop from hell was Russian disinformation, even though they knew that was not true."
Zuckerberg tells Rogan FBI warning prompted Biden laptop story censorship - BBC News
http://www.bbc.com › news › world-us-canada...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62688532
I've heard Zuckerberg's a wierdo but I believe him.
Zuckerberg did not "confess" anything — one of the classic tricks of rhetoric is to make something sound bad by saying that someone "confessed" or "admitted" it. Nor did Zuckerberg tell Rogan that "the FBI went to Facebook and gave them the false narrative that the Hunter Biden laptop from hell was Russian disinformation." Nor did they "know that was not true," because it likely is true. Nor is there any "laptop from hell," of course.
Here's what actually happened, and it had nothing to do with an imaginary meeting between Zuckerberg and Trump at the White House that Trump absolutely did say happened last week: before the 2020 election, the FBI alerted Facebook to the fact that Russians would probably try to spew disinformation before the election.
That's it. There's nothing sinister about that.
Yeah, the story's yet another lie.
Well, nothing off about that, now that you did all that work to ensure Trump didn't say what he said!
I'm sorry basic reading comprehension feels that hard.
Which words that he spoke did I omit in the above quote? Please be specific.
"there is something off about Trump that the corporate media has been largely ignoring. A man his age should not be having the speaking issues he does, nor stand like that. He was other unexplained behavioral and physical issues. The selection of "orange" is also not purely a style decision. It points to some kinds of particular ailments he is hoping to obscure from the public."
Gotta say except for the "orange" stuff this fits Biden to a "T". Say what you want about Trump but he has never turned around from a podium and tried to shake hands with mid air.
"
It's so generic and vaguely slanderous it could be adapted and applied to pretty much anyone, and that's the level of political discourse we're at: 'Never mind Trump's outright lies, here's some nasty insinuations about his target!'
Gotta say, I was posting nonsense to show Jimmy how dumb he sounds. If you found Biden in there, it's because you're into nonsense.
No, I rather think Nige has it correct: if you find Biden in there, it's because this nonsense is so generic and vague it applies to anyone.
That said, I am deeply unhappy with the advanced age of our political leadership. Get those geezers out from behind the desk. Pry away their fingers from the throat of our society and put them out to pasture. Goodness.
'something off about Fettermen'
That's not why. Trump's just a liar and bullshitter. But that's the justification you use when you have literally nothing else to pin on the guy.
"A man his age should not be having a life threatening stroke."
Feh. Hardly unheard of, doesn't mean he did anything out of the ordinary to bring it on. Over a third of those hospitalized by strokes are younger than 65.
The real significance is that, once it happens, your odds of a repeat go WAY up. Fetterman is a terrible health risk.
The 9th Circuit’s position is rediculous. Nuts. A person who makes no attempt whatsoever to ascertain the truth of a defamatory statement should be treated the same way as a person who goes shooting at people’s heads on Fifth Avenue to improve his shooting skills. The law ahouldn’t have to prove that the defamer specifically intended to lie any more than it ahould have to prove that the shooter’s specific intention was to kill.
Reckless has a meaning in law. It is not specific intent. The person who goes shooting at people’s heads for target practice is reckless. The person who defames someone with no attempt to ascertain the truth of the matter whatsoever is being just as reckless.
In his book “On Bullshit,” Princeton Philosophy Professor Harold Frankfurt distinguished between lies and bullshit. The liar is concerned about the truth of what he says. He wants to say something false. The bullshitter has no such concern. The bullshitter uses words to get people to do what or form the impression that he wants. It simply doesn’t matter if they are true or not.
The 9th Circuit’s position, addressed solely at liars, simply doesn’t apply to bullshitters. It’s like applying traffic laws only to horses, simply ignoring automobiles and leaving them and their drivers to do what they will. But bullshitters, whom Trump perhaps particularly exemplifies, are a far greater social problem than liars. Liars, people who actually care about the truth of what they say, are a quaint relic, almost an anachronism, akin to the horse and buggy in traffic. Yes, they still exist. But people who don’t give a shit other than what’s in it for them, which under the 9th Circuit’s position the law completely insulates, can operate on a far bigger scale and do far more damage.
The law as it stands priveleges bullshit over any other form of discourse. If one tries to tell the truth, not only has one made more effort than the bullshitter, but one can sometimes be wrong, and the very effort to acquaint oneself with the facts exposes one to liability if one is wrong that the bullshitter completely avoids.
Is it a defense that even Trump’s supporters hardly believe any of Trump’s claims?
Or even if not a defense to liability couldn’t that support an award of $1 nominal damages only given the lack of reputational harm?
No, because they love him even more because he gets up and tells lies like that.
This clown against Dr Oz. Welcome to the American political parties in 2022.
And why exactly is Fetterman a clown?
And are you claiming that "Magic Diet Pill Oz" is not a huckster and a clown?
I was saying they were the same.
From what I’ve seen of the way Shotgun Fetterman conducts himself he’s a nasty, awful SOB. Oz is, as you say, a huckster.
I’m not in Pennsylvania but I’d cut off my hand before I voted for either of these guys. This is the best our parties can do. You’re actually satisfied with this crap?
PA resident. Everything is relative. Fetterman is literally a communist and I think he's retarded. He was an absolute joke as mayor of Braddock. Our area has a history of electing such morons so that of course means lets send him to the senate. How he beat Conor Lamb in the primary who knows?
Oz sucks and has zero charisma on an absolute scale but on a relative scale he's Reagan.
I think Fetterman will win. Local media totally in the tank for Fetterman. And did I mention PA Philly/Pittsburgh are collective morons and of course statewide lections are full of fraud, see 2020.
So we'll actually have Lurch from the Adams Family in the senate for us, yea!
Why do you describe John Fetterman as a clown?
He is an earnest, well-meaning, civic-minded man who walks the walk far more than most candidates. He is educated, informed, and rooted in the reality-based world.
Dave McCormick also is no clown. He made some mistakes -- he called friends before launching his campaign, telling them 'you are going to hear me say some crazy shit during the campaign, but don't pay any attention to it, it's just what you have to do win a Republican nomination in Pennsylvania,' something of which I am aware because some of his friends are mine, too -- and I disagree with many of his political positions and with his carpetbagging, but he is no clown.
Oz is the clown. He pitched sketchy 'miracle pain relief breakthroughs,' 'magic diet pills,' and science-defying bullshit on television when he could have been using his medical training to help people rather than scam them.
The other clowns are Pennsylvania Republicans who sensed they had to import two (or was it three) candidates from out of state because they couldn't find any Pennsylvania Republicans who might be credible candidates against Shapiro, Lamb, or Fetterman. Now they're stuck with a racist theocrat for governor and a crudite-assembling populist (who apparently is unfamiliar with grocery stores and with the boundary separating Pennsylvania from New Jersey) for senator. The result will be 16 years of a Democrat as governor and two Democratic senators. Thanks, clingers!
Hey, we’ve finally found someone who can pull a gun on an unarmed black guy that Kirkland won’t call a racist or a clinger. It’s a miracle!!!!!
Similarly, we have finally found someone who can pull a gun on an unarmed black guy that the racist Republicans at the Volokh Conspiracy aren't ready to throw a party for, no questions asked.
The problem with being a bigot, bevis the lumberjack, is that you are always the loser in modern America. Thanks for making it so easy for better Americans to win the culture war.
He also appointed a convicted murderer to the state parole board.
He seems good! Ha
You're lying, of course. You've combined two different stories, one of which was entirely false, into a new false narrative.
1) He hired convicted murderers for his campaign — except that this is a lie, because they were exonerated.
2) He appointed someone who has said nice things about Mumia to the parole board. Mumia is a convicted murderer, but that's not who he appointed.
I like Fetterman. Has he said anything particularly clownish?
Words are cheap, Fetterman walks the walk:
"In 2013, when he was mayor, Mr. Fetterman used his shotgun to stop an unarmed Black jogger and detain him, telling the police that he had heard shots fired near his home and spotted the man..."
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/09/us/politics/john-fetterman-gun-black-jogger.html
If a Republican did that you would consider it disqualfying.
If the party affiliations were reversed democrats would probably be denouncing him as a vile racist for this incident while republicans lionized him for it. So what?
Accusing the other side of hypocrisy is like shooting fish in a barrel.
No hypocricy like hypothetical counterfactual hypocricy!
Well, sort of. The accusation as I understand it is that democrats are giving Fetterman a pass for detaining a black jogger at gunpoint when they’d likely claim to be appalled over the incident were Fetterman a Republican. It’s a counterfactual as you say but I don’t think it’s much of a leap - it’s standard partisanship to excuse in your own side what you condemn in the other.
Maybe I should add that I don’t consider either the incident or any hypocrisy to be a compelling reason to vote for or against Fetterman.
Why do people whine that the parties are all the same then go AHA! when they demonstrate profound differences?
Well show me the Republican candidate who pulled a gun on an unarmed Black Jogger, and then we will compare the reactions.
Is this the racist clinger that Kirkland warns is about?
Kaz, that's something I did know about, and which he's dealt with.
Do better than dimly recalled incidents you think will...what, trigger the libs?
I don't dimly recall anything, my recollection is always perfect.
But there is a campaign on, its in the news. In fact it was in the democratic debate that the issue came up:
"The incident took center stage in the race Thursday when Fetterman’s two Democratic opponents — U.S. Rep. Conor Lamb and state Rep. Malcolm Kenyatta — faced him for the first time at the first statewide televised debate and excoriated him over his actions in 2013 and for his refusal to say whether he erred or whether he would do anything differently today."
Of course Fetterman said that the incident was perfect, he didn't do anything wrong. And the Black Jogger said Fetterman lied about everything.
Yes, he's for legalization of all drugs and setting up state drug dens. He's for discharging 1/3 of the prison inmates.
He's smart enough to dodge a debate though.
Okay, and? Those three things sound good.
Maybe it isn’t false. Maybe it is.
Either way, it’s a smart strategy by Trump. The last thing Fetterman wants is for the public to focus on Fetterman's health and personal habits. So the more noise Fetterman makes, the worse it is for him. Same for noise others make. Like this article. It’s not good for his campaign.
Versus Trump. Someone will complain about Trump for the billionth time this week. Will anyone notice? And Trump can afford the lawsuit, even if he loses it.
Yeah, real 4D chess in Trump making shit up about a Democrat. Amazing tactics!
Ben,
Cheerleading amorality to the very end. "But it's effective!" Classy.
There’s no indication that it’s false.
Did Fetterman even deny it? I searched Google quickly and don’t see a denial.
Of course there's an indication: Trump said it.
Didn't so-called medical health professional Oz have a go at Fetterman's health already? Didn't Fetterman turn that back on him? Does anyone not already a Trumpist believe - or claim to believe - anything Trump says?
Not 4-D chess, I'll agree. But a good game of checkers still.
He got Elizabeth Warren to take the bait, and get a genetic test; she thought she had won with 1 part in a thousand as indian, and all she really showed was that she could get played for a fool.
Of course, that's all assuming that it is, indeed, false.
Which is a very sound assumption given that:
1. 95% of what Trump says is false.
2. There is no evidence that the statement is true, and no reason tp think Trump has any basis whatsoever for making it.
Anyone who believes this shit is a gullible fool and a Trump cultist.
Obviously, we would need a lot more facts than are ascertainable from that clip. If the allegation is true, then he certainly can't prevail. And the New York Times v. Sullivan standard would make it difficult to prevail, even assuming falsity.
I would note the irony that false allegations of criminality are generally defamatory per se, but if it were up to Fetterman, drug use would not be criminal.
Trump:
Out of office for 20 months and still living rent free in everyone's head.
It seems to me that, as Trump's statement is reasonably subject to being interpreted as meaning Fetterman has used SOME illegal drugs, not specifically the worst of them, and that isn't currently a very defamatory claim, the defamation case is pretty weak.
He flew a "weed" flag from his office in Harrisburg. So?
No special significance here, I'm just saying that Trump's statement is amenable to a fairly mild interpretation which would, under current circumstances, not be terribly defamatory, true or not; Having smoked pot isn't any big deal anymore.
I can't get over the sheer storm that erupted over Biden's speech, then we get Trump calling Democrats sick and vile, again, demanding to be reinstated as president, again, merrily reviling law enforcement agencies, again, and accusing them of planting stuff, again, so let's just pick out one lie to examine and dismiss its target's chances of legal redress, and move on.
You'd expect a sheer storm to have erupted over that speech. Over the top fascist optics, calling half the electorate enemies of the state, if you'd had a speech like that in a movie it would have been considered over the top! As it was, Biden decided he had to walk it back the next day.
Yeah, see, this is bullshit? Whining about the 'optics' and lying about what he said and pretending it was over the top. When has a single speech by Trump ever not been over the top and not included utterly hateful namecalling of his political opponents, and now regulalry inludes demands that democracy be overturned so he an be president again?
Bullshit.
You make no complaint when Trump - is he even sane? - demands to be reinstated as President, but Biden accurately calling out the Republicans is an outrage? Look around, Brett.
Yeah, when Trump talks about being reinstated two years into Biden's term I settle for rolling my eyes. Because, you know, Trump is just a private citizen. He can talk, but in the end there's very little he can do about it.
While when Biden declares half the electorate an enemy of the state, I take that seriously, because he's got the machinery of that state working for him. Eagerly working for him, unlike the almost open rebellion Trump faced.
He is the leader of the Republican Party with a following of weird extremists who are not half the electorate by a long shot, and a whole bunch of people invaded the Capitol to overthrow an election on his behalf; the idea that there is something wrong with Biden referring to him and his followers as a threat to democracy is ridiculous.
'almost open rebellion'
You're talking about dysfunctionality that was the direct result of Trump's managerial style and hiring decisions. Those were supposed to be his STRENGTHS.
Also, Trump was the guy who liked to style some people he didn't like as 'enemies of the state,' the rest he referred to as 'sick and vile.'
I'm with you on the whole double-standard thing, but if you're not highly suspicious by now that our security state has been politicized, you're just not paying attention. Or, you're choosing not to see.
You say it's been politicized, I say it looks a lot like Trump did crimes.
Both of us are paying attention, you're just believing partisan media over government institutions. Maybe you're right - the government has lied before. But I'm not betting on FOX News in this fight.
Golly gee whiz. Ya think they've lied before a little?
It would be easier to list when they've told the truth
The politicisation of the security state has always been preponderantly (is that a word?) aimed at the left. I don't trust the FBI at all. But nobody has been able to demonstrate so far that the search of Mar A Lago was political. It literally would never have happened had Trump eturned the documents, which he was given ample opportuniy to do. As such, this is an entirely self-inflicted wound. But that won't stop the justice system bending over backwards to get him out if it if they can.
No. Fetterman is a shit show. Has been for years.
No jury could look at him and hear him speak pre or post stroke and not concede Trump is probably right
Oh come now, lets not take a recovering stroke victim and say 'he looks like he's on drugs to me'.
But Fetterman could defend himself in a debate. Oh wait he won't do that
Awwww poor baby doesn't like getting his nose rubbed in his own hypocrisy. Just pound away on that table. Makes you look so mature and all educated and such.
I for one believe that he's enough of a fucking idiot to not understand that.
And Goju has proven you right. He is enough of a fucking idiot not to understand that. And gloating about it.
These commenters just get better and better.
Are you going to pick a hat?