The Volokh Conspiracy
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End Racial Profiling in Immigration Enforcement
It's virtually the only area of law enforcement where racial discrimination is officially permitted by policy. And it's both wrong and illegal.
Reece Jones of the Texas Observer has a helpful article urging the Biden Administration to end racial profiling in immigration enforcement. Racial profiling is a serious problem in many aspects of law enforcement, state, local, and federal. But, as Jones explains, this virtually the only one where such discrimination is actually endorsed by policy, so long as the profiling occurs in a "border" area:
Despite a broad public consensus that law enforcement officers should not use racial profiling, efforts in Congress to ban the practice have failed for decades. The situation is even worse in the border zone, where racial profiling is explicitly allowed for the Border Patrol and other federal immigration police based on Supreme Court decisions and the Obama administration's 2014 guidelines on race and policing, which are still in effect. The Biden administration should revise those guidelines to ban racial profiling for all federal police, including the Border Patrol, and should state explicitly that racial profiling is a violation of the Civil Rights Act [of 1964]….
In 2014, former Attorney General Eric Holder directed the Department of Justice to review federal guidelines for the use of race, ethnicity, gender, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, or gender identity in policing. The review resulted in new guidance that banned racial profiling for most federal officers, but it does not apply to the Border Patrol. Buried in a footnote, it said "this guidance does not apply to interdiction activities in the vicinity of the border, or to protective, inspection, or screening activities." At the time, a DHS official told the New York Times, "We can't do our job without taking ethnicity into account. We are very dependent on that."
The Trump and Biden administrations kept these guidelines on racial profiling in place.
The "border area" exception to rules against racial profiling is so broad that it effectively swallows the rule. As Jones notes, "the official border zone is defined as within 100 miles of borders and coastlines—a vast area that includes the homes of almost two-thirds of the United States population and many of the largest cities, including Chicago, Los Angeles, New York, and Washington, D.C."
You may not think that you live in a border area, but - as far as the Department of Homeland Security is concerned - you probably do. And if you belong to the same racial or ethnic group as suspected undocumented immigrants (or just look like you do), you are subject to racial profiling by law enforcement agencies seeking to catch and deport them.
The practical consequences of such profiling can be dire. Because of weak due process protections in the immigration detention and deportation system, the federal government routinely detains and deports large numbers of US citizens, before discovering its mistake. For obvious reasons, racial profiling increases the incidence of such errors. Victims of racial profiling are also sometimes physically abused by law enforcement. Even when (as in the vast majority of cases) racial profiling incidents end without anyone being detained or hurt, they still inflict needless suffering, and poison relations between law enforcement and minority communities.
In previous posts, I have explained why racial profiling in immigration enforcement is harmful and unjust, and also why racial profiling is a great evil more generally, and unconstitutional, to boot. Progressives, conservatives, and libertarians all have good reason to condemn the practice.
If you're a conservative - or anyone else - committed to color-blindness in government policy (a commitment I share), you cannot make an exception for law enforcement:
If you truly believe that it is wrong for government to discriminate on the basis of race, you cannot ignore that principle when it comes to those government officials who carry badges and guns and have the power to kill and injure people. Otherwise, your position is blatantly inconsistent. Cynics will understandably suspect that your supposed opposition to discrimination only arise when whites are the victims, as in the case of affirmative action preferences in education.
I don't think I need to explain in detail why libertarians should be opposed to racial profiling in immigration enforcement, or law enforcement more generally. All our usual concerns about law enforcement abuses become even more pressing when racial discrimination enters the mix - especially if that discrimination is openly condoned by policy. And, of course, libertarians are no fans of immigration restrictions generally.
Finally, if you're a progressive, and you believe ending racial discrimination in the criminal justice system is an important priority, you cannot make an exception for immigration enforcement in so-called "border" areas that actually encompass areas where the vast majority of Americans live. You especially should not do so, given the long history of racial and ethnic bias in immigration policy.
Both major political parties and all three branches of government deserve a share of the blame here. As Jones describes, the current immigration enforcement guidelines permitting racial profiling were developed by the Obama Administration, and then continued by Trump and Biden, even as Congress sat back and did little or nothing to curb them.
Jones also explains how a series of misguided Supreme Court rulings from the 1970s sanctioned at least some racial profiling in immigration enforcement, even as the Court barred state-sponsored racial discrimination almost everywhere else. This is just one of many areas where the Court has endorsed pernicious double standards under which immigrant restrictions are often exempted from constitutional constraints that bind every other area of government policy.
Jones describes ways in which all three branches of government can begin to make up for their awful record in this field:
All three branches of government could act to end racial profiling in the United States. Congress should finally pass long-stalled bills to ban racial profiling. The Department of Justice should revise its guidance and remove the exception to the ban on racial profiling for the Border Patrol and immigration officers and should make clear that racial profiling violates Title VI of the Civil Rights Act. Finally, the Supreme Court should revisit the racial aspects of the Brignoni-Ponce and Martinez-Fuerte decisions.
In the past, the court has corrected erroneous rulings, often in cases about race. Brown v. Board of Education (1954) reversed Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), which had approved "separate but equal" public facilities for different races. Despite its current conservative composition, in Trump v. Hawaii (2018), the court condemned its previous decision in Korematsu v. United States (1944), which had allowed the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. Chief Justice John Roberts wrote, "Korematsu was gravely wrong the day it was decided, has been overruled in the court of history, and to be clear 'has no place in law under the Constitution.'" Among those symbols of America's racist past, Brignoni-Ponce and Martinez-Fuerte stand alone because they are still put into practice by the Border Patrol every day. It is time to correct those gravely wrong decisions and end racial profiling for the Texas DPS, the Border Patrol, and all police in the United States.
Sadly, though it repudiated the racial discrimination endorsed by Korematsu, the Supreme Court in Trump v. Hawaii perpetuated some other pernicious aspects of that infamous decision, at least in the context of immigration restrictions. Nonetheless, there is much all three branches of government can do to end the unjust practice of racial profiling in immigration enforcement. At the very least, the Biden Administration could easily withdraw the Obama-era guidelines permitting this practice in "border" areas, and Congress could easily ban it.
UPDATE: I should note that invoking Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would only bar racial profiling immigration enforcement by state and local governments receiving federal funds. For example, as Jones notes, the Department of Justice is currently investigating racial profiling in immigration cases by the Texas Department of Public Safety. Racial profiling by federal officials is illegal by virtue of being unconstitutional, despite flawed Supreme Court decisions claiming that sometimes is not the case. Congress and the executive branch cannot disobey court rulings. But they can impose tighter constitutional constraints on themselves than the courts require, especially if they conclude the judicial branch's interpretation of the relevant constitutional provisions is flawed.
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Ok you should be kicked off of the VC.
So when looking for expected illegals lets say in Texas we should not consider profiling Mexicans?
Holy crap!
...What do you think the VC stands for, if being against racial profiling is fundamentally against it's tenets?
What tenet is racial profiling violating?
That is what I am asking you…
The question is idiotic because you are an idiot.
No, that's almost exactly what you didn't ask.
And that's not the only place in this thread where you mistook who asked what, just a few comments up.
You think the VC must stand for racial profiling? Because that is what the post we are replying Tom seems to think.
Bayes' theorem -- it's not just a good idea, it's a law!
End Racial Profiling in Immigration Enforcement
What immigration enforcement?????
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/deportation-statistics
You live in a world of ideology, not reality.
From your link:
Between 2003 and 2018, 4,617,463 foreign nationals were deported from the United States.
That's significant?
Follow up question: In aggregate, how many times did those deportees sneak back in?
You asked what enforcement. There is enforcement going on.
If you want to speculate reentry makes that enforcement lack impact, 1) that is new goalposts, and 2) it would mean every President’s policy is meaningless short of killings.
Pro-forma deportation is not meaningful "enforcement". And Bumble's question was anyway about the current failure of any meaningful enforcement to exist, not what was happening (insignificant as it was) in 2003.
We should turn back every non-white illegal everywhere.
Let the Whites stay as reparative justice to restore equity and fairness after decade of Great Replacement policies.
I'm not so liberal that I can agree with Professor Somin here. Across the border with Mexico come Mexicans. They're brown. They speak Spanish. Who the hell else are you supposed to interrogate? Sheesh
There is a benefit, but there is also a cost:
https://reason.com/volokh/2020/06/08/the-problem-of-racial-profiling-why-it-matters-and-what-can-be-done-about-it/
From the perspective of conservative white nationalists and Republican white supremacists, no cost is involved.
You're not supposed to interrogate anyone if the only thing you know about them is their skin color.
Look. I live in South Texas. I'm as liberal as they come. But I really don't want people here entering illegally.
That's one thing you know about them. Other things may also point to suspicion. See if you can name them.
I know a very white person who was selected for extra investigation, by the admission of the border authorities, because they were taking heat for interrogating too many brown people. I think this was during the post-9/11 Muslim panic.
How does this "very white person" know the basis for the selection?
lol, because, of course, white people are always above suspicion. /snark
What in "by the admission of the border authorities" was too complicated to register on your brain?
Now that bussing migrants to Washington DC has been successful, that shows a path forward.
Every red state and red area in a blue state should setup a bussing program to bus migrants to rich neighborhoods in blue states. Let the people who like to posture about the issue reap the supposed "benefits" of migration.
Same for the drug-addicted homeless. Pay them a nice bonus to go live on the street in rich neighborhoods in blue states.
Every red state should setup a task force to help rich people in blue states reap all the "benefits" of all the leftist policies.
Similarly, our advanced, educated, successful, reasoning states and communities should stop subsidizing our ignorant, superstitious, bigoted, economically inadequate states and communities.
We also should stop providing accreditation to nonsense-teaching schools, stop enabling churches to freeload, and criminalize a substantial amount of bigoted conduct.
If you subsidize and appease clingers, you'll slow the rate of attrition in our society.
We absolutely should stop "providing accreditation" to whatever school vomited you,
If, for the past 10 years, every single violent crime in a certain jurisdiction was committed by persons matching a certain racial profile, what exactly is wrong with using that racial profile to try to prevent future crimes?
To make it more specific, let's say that New York City crime statistics show that all (or most) gun-crimes are being committed by young black males. Doesn't it make sense to "stop & frisk" young black males, to see if they're carrying illegal firearms?
(Any "offense" caused by such "profiling" is far outweighed by the benefit to society of numerous lives saved.)
It's a little more subtle than that -- what fraction of young Black men are involved in that kind of serious crime? Would police require other indicia to reduce the rate of wrongly stopping innocent people?
There are something like 15 million illegal aliens in the US, out of 330 million total residents (roughly 1 in 22), which I think is higher than the fraction of serious criminals among -- to continue with your example -- young Black men in NYC. But the proportion is higher than 1/22 if we look at populations that are heavily represented among illegal immigrants.
The "15 million" figure is totally bogus.
I wouldn't say "bogus", just dated; That was the number before Biden opened the floodgates.
What evidence for these floodgates do you have? I heard this baseless claim about Obama too.
And you can read this thread and see what that bullshit appeals to Brett, and it’s not the better angels of your political coalition.
Those right-wing bigots at the New York Times report record numbers of illegal border crossings under Biden: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/22/us/politics/border-crossings-immigration-record-high.html
You can see what is effectively a step function in the raw numbers, as soon as Biden took office. Every month after Feb 2021 has been higher than any month before -- look at the "Previous Year Statistics" for a sense of how abnormal the May 2019 peak was: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/southwest-land-border-encounters
A marginal change is not floodgates.
Plus of course plenty are being deported. Again, no floodgates.
Yeah, only a 4-500% increase, merely a marginal change.
Gun control laws mean more black kids growing up with dad in prison.
don't know that we need more gun control laws, but we certainly need stronger and more consistent enforcement of the laws we have. for example, committing a crime while in possession of an illegal gun and fraudulent applications to purchase a gun.
Most laws mean more black kids growing up with dad in prison.
If you were stopped and frisked every day for 10 years you'd probably resent it.
Whether the resentment is justified depends on whether you're a criminal.
Is racial profiling in government hiring legit now? https://nypost.com/2022/08/05/nyc-mayor-adams-request-photos-of-city-job-applicants-to-increase-diversity/
I thought Article 1, section 8 of the constitution gave Congress plenary powers to regulate immigration, which would include discrimination of any kind if they so desired?
The argument here is about law enforcement within the US. Yes, it is to enforce immigration law, but it's not directly regulating immigration or border inspections.
So while you're right about Congress, that does not mean there is unlimited discretion about law enforcement within the country's borders.
Thanks for the clarification. But is seems like a rather fine point that regulating immigration has no limits, but the second some immigrating steps over the border, those powers end.
They don't end. But feds can't do things like demand to look through your basement just in case there is an illegal entrant there. They need a warrant. So their powers are limited, and within what is allowed, there is a separate question of what is good policy. And ultimately this argument is whether these forms of racial profiling are good policy when enforcing immigration law within the country's borders.
Somin does his side no credit by pretending the answer is informed solely by the idea that racial profiling is bad because Korematsu.
Somin never does his side any credit. In my experience he is always an idiot.
I don't read Prof. Somin to be saying that this profiling is illegal. Indeed, he notes that the Supreme Court has held that it is permissible. Rather, I take his point to be that even though the government can do it, it shouldn't.
Denying that he IS saying it is illegal is impossible to square with his writing the exact opposite: "Racial profiling by federal officials is illegal by virtue of being unconstitutional, despite flawed Supreme Court decisions claiming that sometimes is not the case."
He added that well after the exchange here. He's also wrong about it, as he conceded that the Supreme Court has said.
Ilya actually does not agree with this. The word used in the Constitution is Naturalization. Ilya believes that Congress has authority over the citizenship process, but not necessarily immigration.
Plus, we have Amendments to that Constitution, including the Equal Protection clause.
Ilya is 100% correct that the border zone is way too large even if you don’t accept that racial profiling has no place in immigration enforcement.
Easiest way to shrink the border "zone" is to secure the actual border.
Does anyone have statistics about the effectiveness of racial profiling? I'd like to know if it works and start from there instead of reading an exchange of platitudes and emotions.
Does anyone have statistics about the effectiveness of racial profiling? I'd like to know if it works and start from there instead of reading an exchange of platitudes and emotions.
Despite strong ambient pressure, El Al, the Israeli national airline, has not had a terrorist related crash.
They do that by racially profiling anyone expecting to come near to one of their airliners.
Profiling works to identify bad guys. Really and truly, a great grandmother from Wisconsin heading to see her family in California isn't a terrorist. It's important to authenticate what you are seeing, but once you know what you have, focus attention and resource on demographics who present a threat.
A lack of statistics is no barrier to common sense in anyone who has any.
Somin reports that law enforcement believes they cannot enforce immigration laws without profiling.
But as we know, this is of no concern to Somin, who favors eliminating any and all barriers to border crossing.
Somin is entitled to his opinion, of course, but it is suicidal.
Honestly, have any of you even lived with/worked with/dealt with illegal immigrants? Has professor Somin?
If you have, it's actually extremely easy to know who is here illegally, and not just for being Hispanic. I mean, it's patently obvious that if someone can only speak Spanish that they didn't grow up in this country. And if they are looking for low paying work, they didn't enter on a tourist visa.
Also, most of the border migrants these days are from Central America, not Mexico, and one striking thing about Central Americans is how short they are, like on average a full head shorter than everyone else. Seriously, it's like looking at a group of hobbits. I am not exaggerating.
If you have, it's actually extremely easy to know who is here illegally, and not just for being Hispanic.
Somin knows that, of course. What he opposes are laws which make illegal immigrants illegal.
Some oppose laws which criminalize shoplifting. Their problem is deeper than some difficulty in identifying shoplifters.
John Rohan has never heard of Puerto Rico.
Please spare me the technical "gotcha" arguments. They are exhausting. It so happens that Puerto Ricans at least learn English in school, about 50% use English regularly, and nearly all of them at least understand the basics.
I know several Puerto Ricans at work. They all speak English fluently and have college degrees. Perhaps you should examine yourself for why you think they can't?
That is some bad logic. DMN is only noting that there is any easy explanation for some pockets of not speaking English. You called him racist because you know some Puerto Ricans who speak English. Which is only relevant if he said no Puerto Ricans speak English.
I happen to know a group in the US that speaks Romanian predominately, and not a lot of English. Quit being reductive - out country contains multitudes.
Too many "multitudes".
Oh hey another white nationalist.
You do understand that someone can be a U.S. citizen and have not grown up and not lived in the United States very long, correct? Just as an anecdote, the father of my lawyer friend is in his mid-60s and barely speaks a word of English. He lived in Mexico for a very long time (as did his son). When he’s been in the U.S., he’s lived in a large Mexican community.
And who let him in?
...and gave him U.S. CITIZENSHIP????
I mean, it's patently obvious that if someone can only speak Spanish that they didn't grow up in this country.
My grandfather, born in New Prague, MN, spoke Czech all day every day for his entire life, almost 90 years. He could speak English—but you would have to listen to him for quite a while to know he was doing it. Nobody who met him toward the end of his life would have been convinced he was an American, after they heard his incomprehensible Eastern European accent. When he was gone, and I was in my 20s, I remained so convinced of my grandfather's foreign birth that I tried to persuade my mother that he probably had immigrated as a youth. She produced his birth certificate. Then startled me by telling me that she also spoke nothing but Czech, until she enrolled in grade school. As an adult, she had not a trace of any accent accept Minnesotan English, and it had never occurred to me.
Rohan, you are full of beans.
Absolutely nothing you said there refuted me. I didn't say ANYTHING about having an accent! Sheesh.
If you're a conservative - or anyone else - committed to color-blindness in government policy (a commitment I share), you cannot make an exception for law enforcement:
Nonsense.
There are limits on what the government can do while investigating crime and arresting criminals which are stated in the constitution.
There is nothing in the constitution which says that law enforcement has to ignore information which is obvious to anyone with their eyes open and paying attention. There is not such a thing as "politically incorrect information".
To conflate criminal investigations with, say, government benefits defies logic, it's driven by a bizarre ideology rather than common sense.
You believe the Equal Protection Clause is limited to criminal charges???
No, I think dwshelf's saying it doesn't even apply to that. He appears to believe the criminal justice system is exempt from the EPC.
Wow.
No, he's saying that the EPC does not mandate idiocy.
Even if we accept that most illegal immigrants aren't white, does someone being not white really create a reasonable suspicion that individual person is an illegal immigrant? I'm very skeptical. There's a lot of non-white citizens.
Strawman beating is really tedious.
You know what would lead to less enforcement inside the border?
Effective enforcement at the border. Wall means people behind the wall have fewer things to worry about.
The right-wing bigots this white, male, conservative blog has cultivated as an audience seem to dislike your libertarian content intensely, Prof. Somin.
Why are you here, associating with faux libertarian racists, superstition-addled gay-bashers, authoritarian xenophobes, right-wing misogynists, and disaffected clingers?
Yeah yeah I know, we are all bigots unless we want a completely open border, no questions asked about who crosses it.
Conservatives are bigots because they are (or embrace) gay-bashers.
Republicans are bigots because they engage in race-targeting voter suppression and white-friendly gerrymandering.
Right-wingers are bigots because they are (or appease) white nationalists and white supremacists.
Conservatives are bigots because they hate non-white immigrants.
Republicans are bigots because they are (or embrace) misogynists.
Not all Republicans and conservatives are bigots, but most are -- and every other Republican and conservative is an appeaser and supporter of bigots.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your ugly, obsolete, unpopular thinking could carry anyone in modern, improving America, that is.
More to the point, why are YOU here?
Weekend on the VC, where blacks are inferior and America should become an all white country.
What would it be like if you engaged people honestly instead of assigning them cartoon villain roles so you could dismiss their concerns?
Also, black Americans don’t need you to be their mom or their white knight.
Watch out with that strawman. If any kind of spark gets loose, you're likely to have an inferno on your hands.
I mean, there are multiple posters here who expressly say that they believe this...
Such as? (And please don't engage in what S_0 dismissively calls nitpicking.)
*nutpicking
Autocorrect isn't.
So, you want me to give examples of the posters who say it, but all the posters who say it don't count because they're nuts?
Well, I'd exclude a couple of posters from any counting, but that does seem a bit unreasonable.
On the other hand, Sarcastro's typical attempt to paint everyone that disagrees as racists is even more unreasonable.
Not what I do.
I am noting the actual racists are thick in the ground in this thread. No more, no less.
If you want to call someone racist, then call them out by name and provide your proof.
Vague untargeted insults like this are just your usual evidence free attacks on anyone that disagrees with you.
You can play the fool but most people have read the thread.
BCDs post is not hard to find, Michael P has some spicy ones as well. Wreckinball starts thing off hot.
And you deny deny deny.
No, the commenters you cite should not self-evidently be cranks, because they're not representative of the general environment that S_0 accused of holding such beliefs.
Otherwise there would be a lot more justification to say "Weekend on the VC, where nominating any example of communism is always unreasonable red-baiting" or -- with rather more justification, given it paraphrases an actual blogger here -- "Weekend on the VC, where the only good borders are open borders".
How about you provide us a list of the verified nuts that have openly expressed white nationalist ideas, so it's easier to meet your criteria by only listing those you haven't included?
The benefit might be that even the nuts then learn that people like you are not their friend, but consider them racist nuts too. It likely won't lead to introspection, but it'd be nice if the nuts understood they weren't speaking even for a majority on the VC (if your list doesn't, in fact, end up including a majority of pro-Republican commenters on the VC).
I'm not the one who asserted those are standard views here. I'm not going to help someone who is a liar.
" Because of weak due process protections in the immigration detention and deportation system, the federal government routinely detains and deports large numbers of US citizens, before discovering its mistake. For obvious reasons, racial profiling increases the incidence of such errors"
What exactly are these reasons? Can you demonstrate that racial profiling increases the incidence (as opposed to decrease the incidence) of such errors?
That’s an easy Google. Articles, statistics, all you need to check before you post your ignorance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_Americans_from_the_United_States lists five Americans who were actually deported over a span of about 15 years. Obviously, we would like that kind of mistake to never happen, but it's that what you call "large numbers of US citizens"?
"before discovering its mistake."; He's counting cases where the mistake was resolved long before deportation, usually within hours.
Sure, as long as you believe the same thing should be applied to gender.
If there is a rape/murder you should look to women as the possible perpetrator in exactly the same way as you would men.
If there is no exception to racial profiling, there should be no exception for gender profiling.
All these victims of illegal border crossings testifying about who did it and being ignored.
That's Somin's demand, in a nutshell.
What would be the practical effect of Somin's suggestion. If a Border Patrol Agent catches a Salvadoran entering illegally, does he have to wait patiently until he catches a Norwegian, to keep it equal? And if he does catch a Norwegian, will all the Border Patrol Agents get to interrogate him, to keep their race neutral numbers high?
Are all Central American and South Americans a single race? Or is there a Mexican race, a Honduran race, a Peruvian race, etc? (And we already know that Brazilians are the same as white Americans, because they speak Portuguese not Spanish.
The whole subject is Alice in Wonderland level absurd.
So much pure, unadulterated bovine scatology in such a small article. Who is this Ilya character? Some kind of parody leftist?
He's a parody of something.
Can you elaborate on your thinking here? Perhaps I'm just slow, but it is not at all obvious to me why someone who comes into contact with immigration authorities as a result of racial profiling is more likely to be the victim of these injustices than someone who is contacted in other circumstances.
I think what you are missing is that racial profiling means BCP will engage with perfectly innocent people (including US citizens) more often than without racial profiling, therefore making arrest, detention, deportation, etc. more likely. This seems self-evident. The whole point of racial profiling is that racial profiling will result in a person being stopped for whom agents did not otherwise have sufficient evidence to stop. Does it need to be explained in more detail that more innocent people will be stopped, etc., when the only (or the extra factor tipping the stop calculus) is their race, ethnicity, or (perceived) national origin?
So the issue isn't that innocent people contacted due to racial profiling have a greater likelihood of being subjected to injustice than innocent people contacted due to other reasons. The problem is that racial profiling necessarily drastically increases the number of innocent people contacted because, no matter what the crime or infraction, race/ethnicity is very poorly correlated with a violation (though one group may be more likely to include undocumented immigrants, for example, it's always going to be a very small proportion of that group).
I suspect one of the underlying ideas of those who think racial profiling is not a problem is that, if the person is innocent, then nothing bad will happen. But as the post points out, it's not just the negative of being stopped and questioned, it's documented that innocent people, including US citizens, have not only been stopped but ultimately deported. US citizens deported! Mistakes and maliciousness happen when law enforcement interacts with the public. (And I submit the maliciousness and mistakes are more likely when policies specifically identify an inherently suspect "them". It essentially affirms biases and prejudices and malevolence that is already present among at least some officers.)
The abuse of innocent people (whether via mistake or maliciousness) is far more likely to happen if a non-relevant (but possibly statistically correlative) factor (skin color, etc.) is used as a stop criteria than if it isn't. This is magnified in the immigration context because of the weak due process protections, such that once you are in the system, you have far fewer rights than, for example, the criminal justice system.
Another solid comment section here at Stormfront, er, the Volokh Conspiracy.
Another solid comment from Aunt Moron.
The actual border itself is the easiest place by far to conduct immigration enforcement without profiling. Everybody on one side is presumptively a citizen, everybody on the other side is presumptively not a citizen, and you sort out the people entering by demanding appropriate documents, which in all but exceptional cases anybody legally crossing the border will have.
No need at all to profile.
The only thing that makes profiling look attractive is the failure to secure the border itself, which allows those crossing illegally the opportunity to mix with the general population, and need to be sorted out again.
You don't want an extended "border zone"? You don't want intrusive measures in the interior of the country? Then secure the actual border!
Because, no matter how much you want it, you're not going to get your open borders policy so long as America remains a functioning democracy. It's the sort of thing that could only be imposed against the will of the citizenry.
But you CAN take border enforcement, and largely restrict it to the actual border.
Yeah the Berlin Wall worked great, let’s do that only even bigger.
we are the good guys!
I'm pretty sure that the Berlin wall wasn't built to keep people out, so you know damned well what a perfectly stupid comparison that was.
To individuals in the wrong side of the wall, it’s equally authoritarian.
A fully 24 hour manned border says a lot.
You're doubling down on stupid. By this reasoning you're guilty of imprisoning everyone walking down the street each night, when you lock your front door, and you're robbing muggers by not handing over your wallet.
Some people have a right to be in this country, they're called "citizens". Other people aren't citizens, and so DON'T have that right. It's not at all authoritarian telling people that they can't take what they're not entitled to.
Sure, from Ilya's "Borders are illegitimate" perspective, you're right. His perspective on borders is clinically insane. Ironically, given his history, he's reasoning about borders the same way communists purport to reason about property, on the level of a John Lennon song.
You are the one advocating for a huge government effort and radical change to our border.
No or very few national borders have Berlin Wall style enforcement. Insisting that not doing so means you don’t care about your border is ignorant of worldwide practice.
You also ignore the economics and our reliance on these people and their low wages to target the victims.
I'm not advocating radical change on our border, I'm advocating a restoration of border enforcement, of the sort basically every country in the world has, and which no 1st world country living next to a failed 3rd world state can afford to be without.
Yes, I know we've made ourselves reliant on cheap illicit labor from illegal immigrants. It has suppressed automation, kept down wages for unskilled labor, and generally degraded our economy in the way you'd expect a source of underpaid, safely abused workers to.
It's long since time we freed ourselves from that dependence. Maybe not cold turkey, but it's time we got away from it.
"and you're robbing muggers by not handing over your wallet."
That is classic! I'm going to plagiarize that line.
Yes, it says "we are serious about people crossing this border needing authorization". Even under Obama, a third of the US-Mexico border had fences or walls.
And it's perfectly affordable to secure the border: The US-Mexico border amounts to 3/8" per person. Most people don't understand how trivially small the border with Mexico is, in proportion to our population.
The Israel fence with Gaza, under continual attack by dedicated terrorists, cost 80 cents an inch. So, we're talking THIRTY CENTS per American to build the most extreme border fence in the world.
If we had to rebuild that fence from scratch every year, we'd have no trouble affording it.
Really, the only reason that border isn't secure is that there are powerful political forces in the US that benefit from illegal immigration, that don't WANT the border secure.
Correction: I do all my work in metric, so I'm actually out of practice with english units. Make that 3/4" of an inch of border per person.
Which obviously changes the analysis drastically. 😉
Ilya
No its tenets of idiocy which you align with. You profile to conserve resources.
If you following white grandma's on the TX border same as young Mexican men in regards to being illegal you are wasting time
What part of libertarian logic do you think says that when police are looking for a fair-skinned suspect, it makes sense for them to stop Black residents at the same rate as anyone else?
It's telling that you lump the Obama and Biden administrations in with "traditional, conservative authoritarian pig" thinking.
We get it, you cannot defend the things you actually said, so you rant about an imagined assertion.
When you found yourself stuck in that rut, for some reason you decided to dig it deeper.
Ilya is a Democrat attack running dog. We know how to pick the future tax sucking parasitic Democrat voters. I would like Ilya to stop profiling on his residential street, bring in a bunch of Haitian buyers.
I know another way that Border Patrol can conserve resources!
Oh! To conserve resources. Well that makes it okay then.
Here are some other resource-conserving profiles we should use:
1. Stop and frisk all persons constitutionally open carrying guns within 100 miles of the border. Turns out a huge proportion of shootings involve guns AND many happen in costal cities. (Don't frisk that black man with the pants sagging to demonstrate he's obviously unarmed.)
2. Pull over all vehicles crossing a state line within 100 miles of a border. Did you know that a high percentage of drug mules cross state lines? And statistically speaking, vans can carry more drugs than cars. (Don't stop the Teslas though; rich people who don't ferry drugs around drive those.)
Wait, what's that? Those sound to you like burdens on Constitutional conduct? Congratulations, you're right! Now kindly shut up about violating people's rights to "conserve resources."
Once again idiocy. This has nothing to do with white folks being disadvantaged. It has everything to do with doing your job in regards to immigration enforcement.
You don't actually know any way the Border Patrol can conserve resources, or even do a reasonable semblance of its job, given who its current masters are.
Nope.
But that's different because they have a specific perpetrator description in hand.
Not really, there is a composite image of what illegal aliens look like in that area. What you demand is that we ignore the criminal acts because they happen at statistically different rates at the southern border than the makeup of the US population.
Uh, yeah. They look rather like the legal immigrants who have been naturalized. Keep going.
Look, everyone wants to catch real criminals. But we've known for two decades now that racial profiling to sweep for criminality fails to find more criminals than non-profiling approaches. Plus, profiling lacks the deterrent effect we want policing to have. You may find that counter-intuitive, but the research is out there free for the reading.
So if profiling isn't much more effective, but it exacerbates racial disparities and tensions, reduces deterrence and trust in law enforcement overall, and generally violates everyone's expectations of what being an American citizen is worth.... why defend the practice at all?