The Volokh Conspiracy
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Five Thoughts About The Respect for Marriage Act
Today the Respect for Marriage Act passed the House by an unexpectedly large margin. And there is movement afoot to see if the bill will garner ten Republican votes to break a Senate filibuster. Ilya addressed the bill here. I'd like to add five more thoughts.
First, one of the most effective and pervasive criticisms of Dobbs is that Obergefell is next. If this bill passes, that argument largely goes away. Granted, the bill does not actually require a state to issue a gay marriage license--only that a state must recognize a gay marriage performed out of state. As a result, gay couples might have to obtain licenses from other states. But that burden is minimal. Indeed, it would be fairly simple to apply for a marriage license out of state, and the ceremony can be performed over Zoom.
Second, the fact that this bill passed the House by such a wide margin illustrates why the Obergefell-is-next argument never worked: there is no national movement to reverse gay marriage. Unlike Roe and Casey, Obergefell was largely accepted without a backlash. Now, there is more than 70% support for gay marriage. There is no march on Washington to reverse Obergefell, like there has been for abortion. Justice Alito was correct in saying this issue has been settled. Obergefell has proven workable in every regard. On the plus side for conservatives, enacting this bill would undermine the non-stop attacks on Dobbs. I'm sure leader McConnell recognizes this fact: passing this bill reduces the need for Court "reform."
Third, so far I've presumed that Section 3 of the bill is constitutional. Is it? The bill provides, in part:
"(a) In General.—No person acting under color of State law may deny—
"(1) full faith and credit to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other State pertaining to a marriage between 2 individuals, on the basis of the sex, race, ethnicity, or national origin of those individuals; or
"(2) a right or claim arising from such a marriage on the basis that such marriage would not be recognized under the law of that State on the basis of the sex, race, ethnicity, or national origin of those individuals.
This provision can be tested in one of two ways. First, a state actor could decline to give recognition to a marriage license issued from out of state. That action would trigger a suit by the couple whose marriage was not recognized, or by the United States Attorney General. But that state official would be going rogue. He would not receive qualified immunity--his actions violate clearly established law. And a judge could hold him in contempt if he flouts a court order. The second path is more likely, a state would sue the United States, arguing that Section 3 is unconstitutional. Ring up one more United States v. Texas. Still, at present, every state is required to recognize same-sex marriage licenses under Obergefell. Standing would have to be creative. That is, the federal law inflicts some injury on the state that goes above and beyond what the Supreme Court required.
I have no interest in weighing in on the Full Faith and Credit debate, with Steve Sachs on one side and Steve Sanders on the other side. The Full Faith and Credit Clause is like the right to travel: an aspect on the Constitution on which there are few actual experts, but on which many people will suddenly profess expertise. I have no clue what the answer is here.
Instead, fourth, I want to turn to Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment. Now, the bill did not invoke Congress's enforcement powers. The bill is expressly couched in terms of the Full Faith & Credit Clause. But could Congress have relied on Section 5 here? The analysis is a bit involved. Walk with me.
I agree with Ilya that the bill would be valid with regard to interracial marriage. Here, Congress could claim that it is enforcing Loving v. Virginia--and to be on the safe side, the Equal Protection component of that case, as Dobbs cast doubt on the substantive due process component. But the bill also refers to denying recognition on the "basis of the sex," not on the "basis of sexual orientation." Hello Bostock. According to Justice Gorsuch, as well as Chief Justice Roberts, it is impossible to discriminate against a person on the basis of sexual orientation without also discriminating against that person on the basis of sex. Now, Bostock was not a constitutional ruling. Here, Justice Gorsuch was interpreting a statute based on decades of non-textualist precedents by Justice Brennan and his ilk.
It is possible that Gorsuch and the Chief Justice would view the Equal Protection Clause in the same fashion as Title VII. If so, Justice O'Connor's Equal Protection in Lawrence v. Texas would be correct, albeit for very different reasons. Indeed, all discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, and presumably gender identity, would be subject to the same heightened intermediate scrutiny employed in United States v. Virginia. To date, the Court has not gone along with that analysis. And I'm not sure that a text-and-history analysis of the Fourteenth Amendment could bear such a conclusion. But that argument is viable.
Fifth, is the Respect for Marriage Act an intrusion on federalism? Or, stated differently, is it a "proper" exercise of federal power? I'll take Windsor as the starting point of the analysis. Think way, way back to 2013 when we still cared what Justice Kennedy thought. (Those were confusing times.) The Windsor decision explained that the Defense of Marriage Act was infected by unconstitutional animus (remember animus!?). And those who enacted the bill sought to deny dignity (remember dignity?!) to gay and lesbian couples. Here, Justice Kennedy invoked the line of cases that stretched from Romer to Cleburne to Moreno (remember Moreno!?). That dignity-denying-animus violated the Equal Protection component of the Fifth Amendment, or something like that. The specifics were never very important to Justice Kennedy. (Randy and I removed Windsor from the 4th edition of the casebook, and the 2nd edition of 100 Cases, as its vitality is quite low.)
Back to the Future. The Respect for Marriage Act would (under the Kennedy guise) not be infected by unconstitutional animus. Rather, the bill would preserve the dignity afforded by marriage licenses for same-sex couples. Thus, I do not see any animus-problems here. But there are real federalism issues at play. Still, the bill critically does not require states to issue the licenses, it only concerns recognition.
My thoughts here, as always, are tentative.
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"Granted, the bill does not actually require a state to issue a gay marriage license--only that a state must recognize a gay marriage performed out of state."
Any chance of applying this logic to a natural rights actually guaranteed by the constitution, say to keep and bear arms? National reciprocity for any type of permit.
Hey, Josh. It is not a marriage. It is a friendship. Nothing the lawyer says, no amount of men with guns will ever change that reality. Marriage is to privilege a monogamous relationship, which is quite unnatural. It is for the sake of raising children. Homosexuals who are billionaires, wrote the novel of the century, and found a cure for cancer are great people. They are biological dead ends. Unfortunately, reproduction is the sole purpose of life. Sorry.
So straight couples who can't have kids shouldn't be allowed to get married. Well done.
That is silly. It should be allowed since people have conceived years after starting to try. If a couple has agreed to not have children by choice from the beginning, then, correct, it is unnecessary. Those people may change their minds as they age and mature. So it should still be allowed.
Familiarity does not breed contempt. It breeds horror. All long term relationships contain horror. They must be endured to raise children. Kids without 2 parents are screwed in the majority of cases. In the absence of children, crazy to endure the horrors. There has been no exception in human history. This has never happened, but say you live an idyllic, strife free life together for decades. One will still experience shocking bereavement.
A vasectomy disqualifies a man from marriage. Getting her tubes tied or a hysterectomy disqualifies a woman from marriage.
Are these people, if the operation happens while married, automatically dis-married?
pahhh
They have to stay married to raise living children.
Scumbag lawyers prosecute the violent crime victim defending himself.
https://www.westernjournal.com/victim-turns-tables-robber-pulls-gun-neutralizes-threat/?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=WJBreaking&utm_campaign=breaking&utm_content=western-journal&ats_es=731571b3134386edfd354e86a103b590
Hey man. I don't really have an opinion on the political issues here. I started reading this blog a few weeks ago thanks to coverage on the gun/abortion cases. I am not American. I don't have any real opinion on the article you linked. I registered an account just to post this and I won't post again:
You seem to have serious mental health problems. You make up like 10% of all the comments on this blog, and a lot of your comments are you talking to yourself, or yelling into the voice. You have some kind of intrusive thoughts / Tourette's thing where you keep using the same phrases again and again, many of which are abusive. Your posts are very difficult to understand or frequently totally unrelated to the issue you're responding to.
This isn't the same thing as saying your opinions are wrong, again, I don't really have a stance on those. The blog seems to attract diverse comments, from liberals to conservatives, libertarians, Trump supporters, etc. I'm not replying to any of them. Just you.
I've dealt with people who have delusions, intrusive thoughts, schizophrenia, etc. in my family. Seek out someone you love and trust: your parents, your spouse or kids, long-term friends, someone you can trust to be honest to you. I think you should have a conversation with them about whether you could benefit from mental health care. It's very hard to hear because part of these types of mental health challenges are that the negative or intrusive thought patterns make you avoid seeking care. That's why it's so important to seek someone you love and trust to help you get a handle on yourself.
You really seem like you need acute mental health intervention. There's a particular way people going through long-term acute mental health crisis speak in terms of repeating the same words, talking to themselves, self-aggrandizement, abusive language against wide groups, fixation on relatively minor things even in inappropriate contexts, etc. and you light up all the red flags.
I hope you're able to get better.
That is a stale personal remark taken from the KGB handbook you gmfoind in wet trash. It calls dissenters insane. It commits the Fallacy of Irrelevancce. Next comes commitment and injected anti-psycotics.
Are are you a licensed health provider? If you are, you post is really unethical. You need to report yourself to your licensing authority.
I invite you to come to the US and dubjectbyourself to our utterly failed legal system. For a truly shocking experience in stupidity, enroll in law school here.
There's a handy mute feature that a few commenters really deserve. Might try it out.
Everyone who does not find my comments useful, should Mute User me. This is between me and the scumbag lawyer profession. It needs to be taken down, and rebuilt from scratch. It stinks. It is in utter failure.
What if they don't have any children?
They should date and stay friends. Marriage is needless risk of being attacked by the scumbag lawyer profession.
Must they wait until they have children to get married, a "proof of concept" concept, so to speak? What if they marry, don't have children yet, and cancer makes one sterile? Must they unmarry?
That is a really good idea for the more productive, richer party. The horror will visit inevitably, but needleesly in their case. It will be compounded by Family Law and by the cops arresting the husband for domestic abuse. Yhey are feminists and always believe the accuser.
Don't feed the trolls my friend.
Ben. I sure hope Queenie has not been banned by Eugene. I miss her a lot.
My wife had and survived ovarian cancer and is therefore incapable of ever having children long before we married. Under your scenario is she incapable of marriage?
Under my scenario, you are exposing yourself to horrific legal risk for no useful reason. If she reports domestic abuse, you are going into a cage, no matter the facts.
Consider being friends, domestic partners. You can direct your funds to assist her if you want to. Homosexual marriage remains a myth gaslighted by deniers for the purpose of plundering assets of productive party. It is a fake all around. Only men with guns validate this denial of reality.
What purpose does marriage serve? Stay friends. Support each other even financially. Today women work. Their SSA pensions after the death of a souse is lower than their own. Marriage just invites lawyer attack.
Yes, this would almost certainly be constitutional if crafted properly. Too bad Republicans didn't do it five years ago when they had the chance!
The Full Faith and Credit apparently has a made up shit exception for police powers. The scumbag Supreme Court just made that up.
Funny how it is never Democrat's fault for neglecting to do the things they claim to believe in.
Justice Alito was correct in saying this issue has been settled
After the last three justices all said that Roe was settled before they unsettled it, why should we believe Alito?
Did they? I remember much ado re respecting precedence and stare decisis deference.
What, exactly, over the last 50 years of challenges every few years from states makes you think Roe was settled?
ACB specifically said it wasn’t a “super-precedent”.
What, exactly, over the last 50 years of challenges every few years from states makes you think Roe was settled?
Because when they were going through the nomination procedure all three recent justices said it was settled.
This isn't complicated; it's about public opinion. It's the same reason that the courts required same-sex marriage but won't require polyamorous marriage, even though the same arguments would appear to require that both be recognized. Public opinion opposes polyamory, so the courts won't require that it be recognized.
OK. Let's assume they said Roe was "settled." What did you think they meant by that? (And I'm not asking what you wanted that to mean. I'm asking what, in your mind, *they* meant when they said that "Roe is settled.")
Additionally, a court is supposed to review the case based on the evidence and arguments presented. If a court's mind cannot be changed by new facts, the it isn't a court, but a dictatorial panel, or a wall.
The justices were very clear that they thought the Roe precedent did not adequately address the rights of the child. There is no such counterpoint to Ogerfell or any other major decision.
If a court's mind cannot be changed by new facts, the it isn't a court, but a dictatorial panel, or a wall.
What new facts were presented in Dobbs?
The court composition.
I thought this was a pretty evenhanded, objective, and thoughtful post.
Someone should immediately contact Eugene Volokh and Josh Blackman, and tell them that someone has hacked into Josh's account and is posting under his name. 🙂
Yes
Whatever Josh drank, he should drink more of it.
If we are picking on Josh, I want to point out he would be more authoritative/believable if he had a better haircut.
From the pictures I've seen of him, it's not at all clear that he has ever had a haircut.
For years, I've read this blog which thoughtfully covers so many important questions of a diverse nature. It is only now that I see how lost I've been in the weeds, ruminating on the ruminations of others, and yet missing the most glaring point...the elephant in the room.
Josh's hair...what's up with that?
Well, you know, you get lazy about haircuts, your appearance in the mirror gradually changes, and you never notice how off it's gotten. It just sort of creeps up on you.
People who don't see you every day, though, notice.
That's where it's important to have people who care about you, and will mention these things.
A hypothetical ...
Let us say, Mr. Scott and Mr. Emerson enter into a union/relationship in a Democrat controlled state. In that state that union/relationship is considered legal and binding.
Mr. Scott and Mr. Scott move to a Republican controlled state where that union/relationship is, not only illegal, but considered morally reprehensible.
Mr. Scott wants to nullify or dissolve the union/relationship and go freely about his way.
What does the Full Faith and Credit clause demand?
My point being that the Full Faith and Credit clause is a weak point in the Constitution that can be used (if allowed to) remove sovereignty from many States.
If one State decides to legalize something reprehensible to the other States, those States would have no defense.
In the historical version of my hypothetical the "legalized relationship" was slavery. In today's version of the hypothetical it is same-sex marriage. But the point remains, where and how do you draw the line? Because when you abuse Full Faith and Credit for something you like, realize it can be abused the other way. I know Democrats aren't long-term thinkers, but still.
This is why I support Obergefell even though I believe it is wrongly decided. Obergefell acts as a firewall to the disaster that would occur if I could abuse the Full Faith and Credit clause.
My point being that the Full Faith and Credit clause is a weak point in the Constitution that can be used (if allowed to) remove sovereignty from many States.
When people, whether lawyers or not, refer to states as being sovereign, I immediately think of Inigo Montoya - "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
A sovereign is the supreme power or ultimate authority over its territory. That is certainly not the case with the states:
Article VI, second clause:
This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.
Amendment X:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
States have those powers that the Constitution allows them to have, not more than that. The states do not have sovereignty to remove. It is wrong to use that word in regards to the relationship between the state and federal governments.
By that standard, we don't have a unified sovereign government in the US. Because sovereignty is divided 3 ways, between the states, federal government, and people.
"States have those powers that the Constitution allows them to have, not more than that."
You could say exactly the same of the federal government, only with more justification.
You have literally inverted the 10th amendment. Some powers are simply forbidden to any level of government. Of the remainder, the federal government only has those powers delegated to it, the states or the people, depending on state constitutions, have everything else.
Federal powers are islands in a sea of state power.
The fed is supreme (as a grant by The People, and The Several States) in defined domains. All else the states and the people remain supreme, as well as overall in that they can change the Constitution. But a state cannot go all squirrely in an area the constitution gives to the feds.
In theory, neither can the feds go all squirrely in an area they're not delegated. If only the courts cared to stop them...
It isn't a standard. It is the definition of the word. A sovereign can have no limits on its power that it doesn't consent to have.
In a monarchy, the monarch is sovereign. In a democratic republic, the people are the only sovereign. (Just ask Stephen Lathrop.) The various levels of government have those powers delegated by the people to them, through the Constitution. The people consented to limits on government power, and thus their own power, by ratifying the Constitution and its amendments through their representatives or in state conventions.
Sure, "everything else", when talking about powers, is reserved to the states or the people. It is really the people that is the more important part of that statement to remember. The Constitution guarantees a republican form of government in each state, where the people retain sovereignty.
Now, as a term of art in legal matters, things like "sovereign immunity" and "dual sovereignty" can be used for lack of a better word for the principle being described. But we should always remember where the true ultimate authority lies - with the people themselves. Recall that the Constitution begins with "We the People...", not "We the States..."
"States have those powers that the Constitution allows them to have, not more than that."
What the Framers intended: The Federal government has only those powers the Constitution grants to it. The States have the powers their people grant to them but that the Fed Constitution does not forbid. The people retain the rest.
How it has worked out, versus how it was intended, is something we'll have to discuss after I begin receiving Social Security retirement benefits.
How it has worked out, versus how it was intended, is something we'll have to discuss after I begin receiving Social Security retirement benefits.
Ha! You and me both. Absent changes to SS, the trust will have been exhausted right around when I become eligible for it, resulting in benefits being slashed to about 75% of what they are now.
But yes, I do take your point about the expansion of federal power into areas that most of the Founders would have disagreed with. (Not all, though. The Federalists, especially Alexander Hamilton, wanted a stronger federal government. A central bank was one of his big first proposals.)
Really, this gets into political philosophy about how much previous generations can bind later ones. It is far easier to say that the people can amend the Constitution to adjust to new realities than it is to actually amend it. On the one hand, amending the Constitution should be difficult because it determines the structure of government and we can see what happens in Central and South American countries that make it too easy to amend their constitutions. But on the other hand, twenty-six amendments in 233 years, with the first ten of those being passed right away, is, quite frankly, insufficient to have kept up with the vast changes in technology and society brought on by the industrial revolution.
My view is that "living constitutionalism" wouldn't have existed if it wasn't at least somewhat needed. The separation of powers between the President and Congress, and within the two houses of Congress makes for an inefficient government. The federal government gained in power, and the Presidency receiving more of those gains, because majorities of the people were demanding action, but Congress was often too dysfunctional and constitutional amendments require such a large supermajorities that they practically need to be almost completely uncontroversial before they can succeed.
" It is far easier to say that the people can amend the Constitution to adjust to new realities than it is to actually amend it. "
It's basically impossible for the people to amend the Constitution; We don't have initiative and referendum at the federal level. Congress and the states can amend it, but, barring a constitutional convention, the states can't do it without Congress kicking the process off. (And, foolishly, Article V routes even the Convention process through Congress in a theoretically ministerial way.)
So, the most accurate way to say it is that Congress either can't or won't amend the Constitution.
My view is that it's more a matter of won't than can't. Living constitutionalism means that Congress largely doesn't need amendments to get its way. It doesn't need the bother and political risk of making a possibly unpopular amendment formal, it doesn't need to run the risk of the states refusing to ratify. There's nothing in the amendment process Congress wants, most of the time. Because of living constitutionalism.
If originalism really becomes the dominant judicial philosophy, and the courts stop giving Congress whatever they want, you might see a Congress interested in amending the Constitution again. Or maybe they'd just set out to 'amend' the Court, instead. Because those Article V amendments do have that annoying feature of allowing the states a chance to say "No.".
In the mean time, a backlog of popular amendments Congress won't originate (Because it wants a different Constitution than the people!) is increasing the pressure for a constitutional convention. Sooner or later I figure that logjam will burst, and the states will demand one. And then we'll see if amendments really were no longer possible, or if Congress just wasn't willing to do its part.
The 14 least populous red states (2022 numbers) represent 8.8% of the total U.S. population. (It would be even less if I listed just the 14 least populous regardless of current partisan dominance.) That is sufficient to block the ratification of a constitutional amendment. It only takes the senators of 17 states to prevent a proposed amendment from passing Congress to be sent to the states. And again, that could end up representing a much smaller portion of the country's population than the fraction of the chamber they make up.
The Founders were faced with a conundrum. Men like Alexander Hamiltion and James Madison, at least, were not pleased with the idea of each state getting equal say. It made much more sense to them, and to any other reasonable person, I would think, to weight things by population. But leaders in the states with smaller populations wouldn't have that, since it would reduce their influence. Never mind that it should be reduced, people just won't often vote to reduce their own power. And the smaller states not only insisted on equal representation in the Senate (and with that the extra weight to their votes for President), they insisted on the provision that no state could end up with less than an equal share of the Senate unless it agreed to it. Good luck getting the legislature of any smaller state to approve an amendment realigning the number of Senators by population.
At the time of the Founding, a national identity was still emerging. People in the different states shared the English language (mostly), but they had differences of religion and culture, and those with roots in the British Isles could have come from different parts of them. People were far less mobile then, as well. But by now, the state you live in is less likely to be the state you were born in. You probably have close family living in other states, friends you still keep in touch with, and business connections in other states as well. The fact is, the states are much more lines on a map than they once were. The whole concept of dual sovereignty presumes a level of dual loyalty among citizens between their state and country that hasn't existed since at least before the lifetime of anyone alive now.
Giving equal weight to the states in national decision-making through the Senate, constitutional amendment process, and extra weight in the Electoral College for smaller states is not about trying to ensure broad support. It is only an artifact of the compromise necessary at the time. It is no longer justified when Texas has 50 times the population of Wyoming, and citizens in the District of Columbia have no representation in Congress or say in constitutional amendments at all.
Typo
> Mr. Scott and Mr. Scott
Mr. Emerson and Mr. Scott
just wait an election cycle or two and there will be only one or two Republican states left.
Seriously, Republicans were handed an election cycle sweep in 2022 and are doing their best to lose. They are likely to lose the governorship in both Texas and Georgia. Why not try to lose the rest of those states and others while they are at it.
Abbott is leading the TX race by 8 points. Whatever you smoked that makes you think he's likely to lose must be some powerful stuff.
Without getting into specific races, there have been multiple elections in which predictions were made that it would be a blue or red sweep that ended up not happening. Remember when Hillary Clinton couldn't lose 2016?
The election isn't for another 3 1/2 months. In politics, that's a long time. Maybe there will be a red sweep, maybe a blue sweep, maybe no one will sweep and the next Congress will look pretty much like this one. It's too early to tell.
All you have to do is uncritically believe every leftist lie about the imagined nefarious intentions of their enemies (ie. projection).
All you have to do is uncritically believe every leftist lie about the imagined nefarious intentions of their enemies (ie. projection).
You might want to think about how projection works and reread what you wrote.
"the bill would be valid with regard to interracial marriage"
In light of other posts here about Bernstein's Classified, a challenge to State actions to prohibit interracial marriage might not need to rely on Loving.
“As a result, gay couples might have to obtain licenses from other states. But that burden is minimal. Indeed, it would be fairly simple to apply for a marriage license out of state, and the ceremony can be performed over Zoom.”
Damn dude, you are a massive asshole.
Goddamnit, that’s exactly what I copied and came here to insult him about too.
Everyone dreams of getting married over zoom because a fucking bigot said it was easy.
Honestly it would be less insulting if he just straight up said “tough luck you can’t get married at all.”
But claiming that getting married over zoom is a “minimal burden” is so thoughtless and demeaning it’s almost like he’s never considered the possibility that the people he’s talking about are humans with thoughts, feelings, hopes, and dreams.
He's a bigot. A superstitious, disaffected, immature, partisan bigot.
What does anyone expect?
(Prof. Volokh expected precisely what he is getting from this guy.)
Well, when the Supreme Court held oral arguments in Bowers v. Hardwick, the Attorney General of Georgia actually told the Supreme Court that sodomy laws were necessary because anti-gay bigots were entitled to their hopes, dreams and ambitions.
This reminds me of something I read years ago written by Robert Bork in the 70's. He was talking about developing a neutral method of constitutional interpretation (what would become originalism) and Griswold. He actually put a married couple's interest in having sex while preventing pregnancy on the same level as the local community being upset that a married couple might be having sex in the privacy of their home without the possibility of having a child from it. "Why should a married couple's happiness and privacy trump prudish busy-bodies thinking that it is horrible that someone, somewhere, might be having a good time?"
People are just freely showing their true colors anymore.
Unless you're throwing your big ceremony at the courthouse, you have to actually and legally get married somewhere other than your wedding ceremony.
They can still throw their big fancy wedding with whomever they want officiating. This is just using zoom to go to the courthouse rather than drive there.
He didn’t say that though. He’s an asshole.
That's what i understood. But then, I legally got married in one state, and had the ceremony in a different state, neither of which i was living in at the time.
Really? My reaction was, "Seriously, you're going to claim that a marriage where the participants were both in Texas actually took place in another state?" I think a court fight over this would probably result in the marriage being declared to happen where the people getting married were located at the time.
I mean, try getting around a state law against gambling by connecting to a casino in Nevada over Zoom. Betcha it doesn't work.
Your reaction was something like that because you’re also an asshole who doesn’t understand how demeaning and insulting it is tell someone it’s a “minimal burden” to just do a wedding over zoom.
No, my reaction was like that because I don't believe you can reasonably say you got married in Nevada when you never were in Nevada.
So you're saying it makes a difference if you make a trip across state lines to a courthouse vs. make a zoom call? You don't even need to be legally married in the state you have your wedding ceremony.
awkward phrasing... legally get married? The state where you sign the official papers at the courthouse.
Huh. I understood that comment to be a reference to the issue of Israel-Utah internet marriages that I've read about here on a number of occasions. People in Israel who encountered an obstacle to their legal marriage found a workaround using a friendly jurisdiction (Utah) and the internet.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/07/11/utah-online-marriages-upend-israeli-marriage-debates/
Josh Blackman yesterday:
No longer would the Court's legitimacy be tied to public opinion. To the contrary, a legitimate Court must decide, and even overrule cases without regard for popular sentiments.
Josh Blackman today:
the fact that this bill passed the House by such a wide margin illustrates why the Obergefell-is-next argument never worked: there is no national movement to reverse gay marriage. Unlike Roe and Casey, Obergefell was largely accepted without a backlash. Now, there is more than 70% support for gay marriage.
That's reasoned argument, South Texas-style!
Far be it from me to look down on some Blackman dunking, but I think you've missed his point. He's not saying that the popularity of same sex marriage means the Supreme Court would reject a challenge to Obergefell: he's saying that the popularity means the challenge is never going to happen, because no state is going to enact a law that would be inconsistent with Obergefell.
I don't think that was the point. It's not likely, but I could certainly imagine a solid red state banning gay marriage as part of political posturing around primary fights.
I think his actual point was that there was a strong, well organized, and politically influential pro-life movement that was constantly pushing to ban abortion. And it's this movement that orchestrated the fall of Roe v Wade. No such movement exists to oppose gay marriage meaning SCOTUS is unlikely to overturn Obergefell.
I think he's actually right in that point... the problem for Blackman is it completely undercuts the argument he made yesterday that the court doesn't care about popular sentiments. To take that statement at face value it shouldn't matter if Obergefell polled at 70% or 7%, or if there was a march of a "million" or only five people. The constitution should mean what it says.
Of course, the answer to the riddle is that his statements can't be taken at face value.
Blackman was right yesterday in saying the Supreme Court doesn't care about popular opinion, that's why it overturned Roe v Wade.
He was also right today when he implied that it does care about conservative opinion, and that's why it won't overturn Obergefell.
Of course he dodges saying this directly because it suggests the court care about opinions of the conservative base and not much else, and the danger of that should be obvious to anyone.
So is he dishonest or an idiot, because Texas and it's activist AG is right there. Unless Democrats actually win Texas in this next election cycle (doubtful) their legislature is going to pass some law deliberately intended to challenge Obergefell come next session. The only reason they haven't already is that they don't have a year-round legislature.
Precisely. Is no one fucking paying attention?
We've got states wanting to prosecute women for traveling to another state to get an abortion. "Papers please."
The things alllll these people warned about are coming true but somehow it's "an overreaction" to think someone would make laws against something like gay marriage.
I'm not sure how anyone can forget that Ken Paxton exists, or his hostility to basic human decency.
I'm equally unsure how the fuck he's managed to avoid actually being held accountable for his repeated violations of the law, for which he was indicted years ago and still hasn't been thrown in fucking prison.
"Roe might get overturned."
"Warning! That is a slippery slope that could be used to re-illegalize gay marriage, gay sex, maybe even Loving."
"Nonsense! Abortion is a special case because of arguments about the baby. Those others are all voluntary activities between consenting adults. The baby doesn't consent."
[Roe is overturned.]
"Ok, on to gay rights!!!"
You sick fucks.
Pardon me. I forgot "lying" in that list.
Except in the Roe decision, both Alito and Kavanaugh explicitly said that this doesn't impact any other decision.
Even Thomas's objection was about the reasoning, not the content itself.
It's trivially easy to pull up SCOTUS cases where the majority assured there was no slippery slope, only to continue on down the slide a few years later.
As for Thomas, he's been against gay people not fearing the law for decades. He can claim it's all about the logic, but he's only fooling people that want to be fooled.
Oh well of course we can trust them. Not like the ones voting to overturn Roe went up there in their hearings and said "Roe v Wade is settled and I respect stare decisis."
I'm not interested in trusting (or not) the superstitious, bigoted, stale-thinking Federalist Societeers on the Court.
I am interested in outnumbering them on an enlarged Court -- that enlargement to be conducted in scrupulous compliance with every applicable rule and in congruence with ample precedent, of course.
Starting at 22:29, Barrett discusses stare dicisis. She's quite clear that it allows a precedent to be overturned if you have good reason.
Feinstein questions her repeatedly about Roe and precedent, and at 37:26 she says, "Senator, what I will commit is that I will obey all the rules of stare decisis, that if a question comes up before me about whether Casey or any other case should be overruled, that I will follow the law of stare decisis, applying it as the court is articulating it, applying all the factors, reliance, workability, being undermined by later facts in law, just all the standard factors. I promise to do that for any issue that comes up, abortion or anything else. I’ll follow the law."
The law of stare decisis which allows for precedents to be overturned with good reason, according to her earlier remarks.
At 35:29, the following exchange takes place:
"Senator Patrick Leahy: (35:29)
On another case, Roe vs. Wade, and I understand what you’re saying is notwithstanding what a member of this committee said, you have not made a commitment to anybody. Is that correct?
Judge Amy Coney Barrett: (35:41)
Senator Leahy, let me be clear. I have made no commitment to anyone, not in this Senate, not over at the White House, about how I would decide any case."
At 4:10:24 she denies that Roe is a "super-precedent".
Klobuchar questions her, and at 4:11:22 she says,
"Judge Amy Coney Barrett: (04:11:22)
Well, Senator, I can just give you the same answer that I just did. I’m using a term in that article that is from the scholarly literature. It’s actually one that was developed by scholars who are certainly not conservative scholars, who take a more progressive approach to the Constitution. And again, as Richard Fallon from Harvard said, “Roe is not a super precedent because calls for its overruling have never ceased, but that doesn’t mean that Roe should be overruled.” It just means that it doesn’t fall on the small handful of cases like Marbury versus Madison and Brown versus the Board that no one questions anymore."
....
I could go on like this, but I provided a link to the transcript, and you can search for "Roe" as easily as I can. I think I've established my point: She never said she wouldn't overturn Roe.
And yet she most certainly did not follow stare decisis. You can cite transcripts all you want Brett, but the bitch lied to get the job, and then her and five assholes decided that 'stare decisis' really just means 'until you get enough votes to decide otherwise, without any fundamental changes in the facts or the law.'
The only 'change' that resulted in the overturning of 50 years of precedent upon precedent, was that the court now has 6 GOP fucks willing to violate jurisprudence to deliver what was expected of them.
Justice Thomas and Obergefell:
I am thinking that Justice Thomas willingness to overturn Obergefell is not due to hostility to same sex marriage or to its Constitutionality per se. But that it was decided under the Due Process clause. I think this is part of his long game to restore the Privileges and Immunities clause. He has stated his desire to overturn Slaughterhouse.
This is a chicken or the egg problem. Do conservatives like Thomas adhere to originalist arguments on principle and it is just a coincidence that it tends to produce policy outcomes conservatives prefer, or do they adhere to originalism because it tends to produce the outcomes they like?
To answer that question, we might look to see how consistently they apply originalism when it would lead to outcomes that conservatives don't like. If there are any.
What, you mean the justices that bend over backwards to divine "original intent" in 200+ year old laws and ignores "original intent" when they can walk down the street and ask don't actually care about "original intent"?
Say it ain't so!
I think Gorsuch's decision in Bostok, at least, is proof that his methodology doesn't always get him to decisions conservatives like.
You mean the one where basically every other originalist in the world rejected his reasoning?
They're all wrong. It's pretty obvious Gorsuch is right - you wouldn't complain about the same behavior if the gender of the person was different (ie, but for their sex, their behavior is unobjectionable), so it's clearly on the basis of their sex. That's the only legitimate textualist reading, and comports with the understanding of 'discrimination' and 'sex' in the era the law was written.
Cool story. I'll leave it to you to play "No True Scotsman" with originalists.
Me? I don't think that n-1 got the "wrong" answer is a good argument that (as a group) they aren't just self-interested opportunists.
Since Bostock was a matter of statutory interpretation (Title VII), "originalism" doesn't enter into it (that's a theory of Constitutional interpretation).
The tension in Bostock was between textualism (generally, just look at the text of the statute) vs. some kind of "intent of the drafters" argument. On one hand, it's likely true that at least most of the drafters of Title VII's language didn't contemplate it applying to discrimination against gays and lesbians. On the other hand, It's also true, for the reasons Squirrelloid says, that Gorsuch is pretty obviously right if you just look at the text of the statute.
Reasonable minds can differ about the best way to interpret a statute, but textualism has many prominent conservative defenders. Scalia, for example, famously eschewed various sources of legislative history in favor of just looking at the text.
Correct. It's due to his hostility to gay folk existing at all. His hostility goes much deeper then marriage.
I think it is rooted in prudish, old-timey superstition, a product of outsourcing your reasoning and humanity to a fictional character.
We would have been better off had his delusions centered on John Blutarsky, the Roadrunner, or Forrest Gump.
Mind reader....
"...there is no national movement to reverse gay marriage..... Now, there is more than 70% support for gay marriage."
What's the polling on support for access to contraception? But somehow THAT got fewer Republican votes in the House.
I'm skeptical of making any predictions about the Court's next moves based on public support. (Which also favored Roe, but who's counting?)
And how many Republicans voted against it because they were worried about slippery slopes and unintended consequences?
Who said "If I voted on bills based on their name rather than what they actually did, I'd vote yes a whole lot more often"?
Blackman says:
I'd like to see either a citation or an elaboration of this standing analysis. Because I have never encountered a rule that says you don't have standing to challenge a law that comports with a current precedent.
I agree that a state wouldn't have standing to challenge a federal statute requiring it to recognize same-sex marriages if it had already decided to recognize them regardless.
But if a state actually decided it wanted to stop recognizing same-sex marriages, and it wanted to ask the Supreme Court to overturn Obergefell, I don't see how there isn't a justiciable controversy, both as to the meaning of the constitution and the enforceability of the federal statute.
I don't think a state will do that. And I don't think the court would take the case. But I think standing doctrine should be cold comfort to anyone worried about it happening.
Traceability/redressability. If Texas argues, "This law forces us to recognize gay marriages against our will, so we want it struck down," that argument has no force because declaring the law to be beyond the powers of Congress would not get Texas the relief it seeks.
That doesn't mean Texas couldn't get to court, but it couldn't get there by suing to enjoin the statute.
Wow so Congress has an Article I power to regulate state's treatment of marriage now? Who knew.
Commerce clause?
Full Faith & Credit. Did you even bother to read the statute?
*proposed statute
Sounds like expert consensus is FF&CC does not grant Congress this power either.
So long as federal taxes are tied to marriage, you're goddamn right they do.
But hey, I bet you're a libertarian who doesn't mind the state saying "fuck your rights" huh?
If you can go fifteen minutes without talking about gay folk and bring up marriage? Libertarians have no problems with it, and will have every expectation that states will respect and honor a marriage in another state.
It's only when gay folk enter the conversation that they remember that they think the government should get out of marriage entirely.
"federal taxes"
Read my comment again.
"states' treatment of marriage"
You defend Obergefell only with political reasoning, but by the same legal reasoning of Dobbs, Obergefell is doomed to the same fate. Homosexual marriage is neither “deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition” nor "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty.”
Obergefell will end up like Dobbs, and homosexual marriage will end up like abortion. Legal in some states, and not legal in others.
Well, you're right; By the reasoning of Dobbs, Obergefell would be overturned in a heartbeat. If the Justices were perfectly consistent, it would be.
They're not perfectly consistent, and they're not going to be perfectly consistent. They're not going to launch that shitstorm over a ruling where most people who were opposed have given up and moved on. Thomas would, because that travesty of a confirmation hearing burned out of him every iota of caring what his enemies think. But the rest of them aren't scarred to the point of being indifferent to that sort of thing.
The majority will overturn left-wing precedents that are contrary to the Constitution only where the fight still rages. Abortion, gun control, racial preferences. Where the opposition gave up and moved on, they don't see the point.
If they ever get replaced by computers, start worrying. Computers would follow the logic anywhere it led. These guys won't.
That test is for substantive due process, not for equal protection.
David, do you REALLY think that the current SCOTUS majority gives a shit about what reasoning they'd have to use to destroy the rights that conservatives rally against?
Having read Alito's opinion, and seen how he deliberately distorted history and lied to justify his opinion, I think they will do whatever they want, without regard to any kind of ethics, or standards of jurisprudence.