The Volokh Conspiracy
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A Guide to Fixing the Electoral Count Act
Andy Craig of the Cato Institute has an excellent overview of this important issue.

Andy Craig of the Cato Institute recently published "How to Pick a President: A Guide to Electoral Count Act Reform" an excellent overview of the problems with the Electoral Count Act revealed in the awful aftermath of the 2020 election, and how to fix them. Craig is a leading expert on ECA reform, and is his paper is a great introduction for anyone interested in these issues.
Here is the summary:
The peaceful transfer of power, regular elections, and limited terms of office are among our most precious legacies of the American Revolution. These bedrock constitutional principles are indispensable both to "insure domestic Tranquility" and to "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity."
But as we saw in the 2020 election, operating under an antiquated rule book can pose serious risks. The Electoral Count Act of 1887 (ECA), with minor amendments since, is the statutory codification of important details left unaddressed by the Constitution's sparse provisions for electing a president. It is in dire need of reform.
America should not have to confront a potential constitutional crisis every four years. We should have confidence that the rule of law will prevail in determining the occupant of our highest office. The ECA as it stands is woefully inadequate to provide that assurance.
There is broad agreement on the need for ECA reform. Proposals range from a broad, expansive bill that could be criticized as overly complicated and assuming a role for Congress beyond the Constitution's limits, to a narrow, minimalist bill that could leave important problems unresolved by only making minor cosmetic changes.
There is a better middle course, built on a thorough consideration of the constitutional principles at stake. The ECA as it exists now is too flawed to save. Even if no substantive changes were to be made, a thorough rewrite is necessary to clarify the muddled and confusing language that Congress adopted in 1887. At the same time, ECA reform should respect the limits of Congress's role, in line with the principle that the ECA is simply codifying and clarifying constitutionally mandated processes. To that end, this analysis provides a top‐to‐bottom how‐to guide for an ECA reform that is both constitutionally and practically sound.
As Craig's paper lays out, ECA reform needs to address three interrelated problems:
1. Preventing state governments from, in effect, changing the rules after election day, in order to reverse election results they don't like.
2. Preventing Congress from throwing out electoral votes for bogus reasons (as some GOP members of Congress sought to do after the 2020 election).
3. Making it more clear that the Vice-President does not have the power to invalidate electoral votes (a step then-VP Mike Pence rightly refused to take in January 2021, despite the urging of Donald Trump).
While there is some dispute over details, there is broad agreement on these and related points among election and constitutional law experts across the political spectrum. The recent National Constitution Center project on "Restoring the Guardrails of Democracy" revealed that this is a point of agreement between the conservative, libertarian, and progressive teams that participated. The issue is covered in some detail in both the Team Libertarian report (which I coauthored with Clark Neily and Walter Olson), and the Progressive Report (written by election scholars Edward Foley and Franita Tolson). Team Conservative leader Sarah Isgur noted their agreement in a later NCC webinar.
It also appears that ECA reform has substantial bipartisan support in Congress. But whether it can pass before the fall 2022 elections remains to be seen. For obvious reasons, reform will become harder and harder to achieve as we get closer to 2024.
ECA reform won't cure all the ailments of American democracy. But it can eliminate some dangerous vulnerabilities for which - unlike many of our other problems - there are simple legislative fixes.
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Cato and Reason are the Koch Bros. They are Never Trumpers now. So let me translate. They want to make the US California, a permanent one party state, headed by them, of course, and their oligarch billionaire pals. That way, they can continue to plunder its assets.
While there is some dispute over details, there is broad agreement on these and related points among election and constitutional law experts across the political spectrum.
Of course, there is. They are all afraid of an experienced Trump's returning to office. He remains a weak leader, who will not clean house, but better than the alternative.
100% the fault of the scumbag, toxic lawyer profession. He should have been killed at 14. He was protected by this toxic profession. A good guy with a gun had to do the job of the utterly failed lawyer profession.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/indiana-shopping-mall-shooting-police
How does fixing the ECA do that?
“Boy, did we screw up. What a mess,” is how the Donald Trump supporter characterizes his partisan battles in his soon-to-be-published book, “Believe in People: Bottom-Up Solutions for a Top-Down World,” the Journal noted.
"Now Koch claims he wants to work across party lines to forge solutions to poverty, addiction, gang violence and homelessness, he told the newspaper."
Koch has gone all BLM, prison reform, and woke. Seize his assets in civil forfeiture for shady tax practices.
This is code for ending the two party system. They plan to have a permanent one party state of cheaters. Ilya is an Ivy indoctrinated, Democrat attack dog, and a gas lighter of the public. He is dismissed. Nothing he says should be trusted.
Remember the Slippery Slope review? This is falling off a cliff on the way to big Democrat states rule. It will then be, welcome to shithole Venezuela, and to the surveillance state of the Chinese Commie Party.
So, you'd be happy with a system where the state legislators from each state always vote for president directly, or at least have the ability to do so when there are claims that a direct election didn't favor the presidential candidate of the party of the state legislators?
If you'd really like this sort of system, the state legislators of your preferred party would need to also somehow entrench their power, or else the opposing party could get a hold of this plenary power to elect the president. The state legislators would probably also need the power to directly elect themselves.
Mathematically, gerrymandering is the biggest factor is the current extreme and toxic partisanship. I felt it when I was in a district with diverse North Philly. I live in the suburbs. I threatened my Congressman with a billboard on Broad Street glorifying his being a homosexual. Perhaps, a coincidence, but I am back in a suburban district. It is 70% Democrat from all those people escaping Philly. I want to sell and move to the west coast of Florida, which is 70% Trump country and great. Property in PA is stagnant. Property in FL shot up 50% last year. I care about PA. It has been good to me. I think the Republican legislature should try to FLA it. So, yea. Rescue the state I love from the servants of the Chinese Commie Party. Whatever it takes to stop them. I do not support violence, not even the American Revolution, a catastrophe that caused the Civil War.
California became a permanent one party state by Democrat cheating. All tricks are justified to prevent their methods from spreading.
> 1. Preventing state governments from, in effect, changing the rules after election day, in order to reverse election results they don't like.
If the election day results were illegal, then they should be reversed.
> 2. Preventing Congress from throwing out electoral votes for bogus reasons (as some GOP members of Congress sought to do after the 2020 election).
I haven't looked at their reasons, but I do know value judgements like "bogus" tend to be self-serving.
What needs to be done is for the courts to entertain election challenges, speed up discovery, and be able to invalidate elections and force them to be redone.
Right now we have election tomfoolery being ignored by the courts in the heat of the moment and then, years later, the courts ruling that the election was conducted illegally (long after any remedies can be applied). So, if you cheat you get rewarded.
We need to get to the discovery phase in court challenges. We need per se violations that cause irrebuttable presumptions for fraud.
What do you think all those affidavits found to be irrelevant were if not a failure on the merits?
They were ignored because of no standing before the election, then to late after the election, or the remedy sought (invalidate illegal votes) to extreme.
The problem was judges granting local officials free range to change the rules passed by the legislatures.
Wisconsin just declared drop boxes illegal. All the votes dropped in those boxes should have been invalidated.
If Judges won't enforce the laws then, what will make Judges enforce these new laws.
About a third of the lawsuits were decided on the merits.
And further, when asked in court, the Trump lawyers conceded that they were not alleging fraud.
Well, yeah, and I keep saying this: There are more ways to cheat than just fraud.
For instance, if state law says the polls close at 9PM, and some local administrators say, "Screw that, we're keeping ours open until 11!" that's not fraud, but it's still cheating.
IIRC, what the Trump lawyers were alleging was not that they could prove fraud, but rather that they could prove election rules had been violated, sometimes in a way that would have allowed fraud to go undetected, or otherwise have affected vote totals.
If we're having a card game, and I complain that you shuffled the deck under the table, I'm not saying that I can prove you stacked the deck. The whole point of doing the shuffle out of sight would be to make sure nobody could prove you'd stacked the deck!
So, if you eject poll watchers during the count, or put them in another room, or otherwise make sure they can't see what you're doing, that doesn't constitute proof of fraud. It's 'just' a violation that would allow fraud to go undetected.
For instance, if state law says the polls close at 9PM, and some local administrators say, "Screw that, we're keeping ours open until 11!" that's not fraud, but it's still cheating.
Actually, it's not cheating at all.
This is not a football game.
And nobody is shuffling cards under the table.
Yes, damn it, violating the rules in a manner that will help you win IS "cheating", or the word has no meaning anymore.
This isn't a football game, the rules are actually MORE important than some stupid game. This is a contest to determine who's going to run the government, between people who don't trust each other, or grant the other side's good intent.
Following the rules under such circumstances if exponentially more important than in any stupid children's game.
"And nobody is shuffling cards under the table."
Analogies, how do they work? If you kick out the poll watchers, yes, damn it, you ARE "shuffling the cards under the table."
Rules and transparency are incredibly important when the stakes are high, and there is no trust. It was insane to start mucking about with both in 2020, unless the intent was that, no matter who really won, the losing side could claim fraud.
violating the rules in a manner that will help you win IS "cheating", or the word has no meaning anymore.
How about establishing the rules in a manner designed to help you win? That seems to the GOP's M.O.
Anyway, who "violated the rules?" Election observers were not kicked out, despite your cultish willingness to swallow Trump's lies on the matter. No under the table shuffling.
See, for instance.
This was just sophistry to allow counting in those 'satellite offices' to proceed without poll watchers. Voting was going on, poll watchers were barred.
That's not the sort of thing that even occurs to you to do, let alone that you insist on, if you want an election trusted.
Now you are complaining about a judge who applied the law as written, when you wanted him to be creative.
This was just sophistry to allow counting in those 'satellite offices' to proceed without poll watchers.
No. This is a Stop the Steal conspiracy theory. You have no proof this was the secret intent. There are lots of possible reasons, and you should ask yourself why you chose that one.
Your bloody "intent" doesn't MATTER! Can't you get that through your heads? Why you decide to change/violate the rules, why you decide to exclude poll watchers, DOESN'T MATTER.
You think it's OK, because you know you had good motives. You're side always has good motives, right? But there's no reason for the other side to grant that you had good motives. The objective facts are what you did, not why you did it.
Now, the judge explained the excuse for excluding the poll watchers, that technically the satellite polling places weren't "polling places" because voting wasn't the only thing going on there. Whoop dee doo. Does that somehow make it a good idea to exclude poll watchers? Does that imply that people who don't trust you aren't going to draw adverse inferences from your excluding poll watchers?
Why, even assuming you could get a judge to sign off on it, would you WANT to exclude poll watchers? And having done it, why in the world would you expect people to not think you were cheating, once you'd made a point of it? Is there any other reason for not wanting observers?
The judge didn't violate a damn thing, Brett.
Has the ECA ever been challenged as to being unconstitutional?
Asking for a friend.
You do not RC. People didn't riot in the capital or try to stop the election from being certified because they thought the wrong government official had authorized some polling places to stay open for a couple of hours.
People might "...riot in the capital (sic)" or "...try to stop the elections from being certified" if they think dirty tricks like "...the wrong government official authorized some polling places to stay open for a couple of hours" have been used in election after election after election for literally decades as measures to distort final tallies.
"For instance, if state law says the polls close at 9PM, and some local administrators say, "Screw that, we're keeping ours open until 11!" that's not fraud, but it's still cheating."
Interesting perspective. So if the GOP decide to reduce voting locations in a dense city with high Democrat registration and create long lines and then strictly enforce voting hours, that's not cheating? And if they simultaneously allow generous voting locations for more suburban and rural areas where GOP registrations are higher, that's cool too? (This is a real example, btw.)
To say that letting people who are queued up for hours to vote have their turn is "cheating" is pretty heady stuff. No one knows who anyone in line is going to vote for so, why is it cheating again?
Well said.
All Brett's "rules" are designed to keep those he doesn't like from voting.
"(This is a real example, btw.)"
The Dem-run cities bringing in too few voting machines is the Republicans' fault...how?
The state does not decide what precincts get what machines. The precincts handle that. If heavily Dem areas have too few machines, the Dems running the precinct is to blame.
Hey dummy. Local election officials decide the polling locations. It was dems that lowered the counts in favor of drop boxes. God damn some of you are ignorant to facts.
More than 2 dozen lawsuits have now been found in favor of trumps arguments, mostly regarding rule changes. Done illegally. But fuck facts right?
That happens in every single election. (Well, administrators don't decide it on their own, typically; a court orders it.)
Because — I can't stress this enough — it's not a sport. The rules are the means to an end; they aren't an end in themselves.
That's not "because." You've mistaken the advertising for the truth. This happens "every single election" because it inflates the margins of the incumbent party (regardless of whether it's Team Red or Team Blue). That's the "because."
1. Drop boxes had been declared legal at the time.
2. A fundamental tactic of the Trump campaign, which your comment exemplifies, was to try to portray minor irregularities intended to prevent disenfranchisement in the umusual circumstances of COVID as fraud whenever theywere perceived as likely resulting in more votes for Democrats. Yet the same itregularities were never challenged when they resulted in rlecting Republicans.
Some tens of thousands of Republicans in swing states voted for Congressional Repunlicans but not Trump. Yet where Republicans won the Congressional race but lost the Presidential one, using the same supposedly illegal ballot methods, the election of these members of Congress was never challenged as fraudulent.
Good that you noted, facts as noted by Trump supporters, that the former President underperformed with Republican voters. Had more Republicans voted for the former President he might have one. I suspect that he will get even less Republican votes in any future election.
"A fundamental tactic of the Trump campaign, which your comment exemplifies, was to try to portray minor irregularities intended to prevent disenfranchisement "
Seriously, we don't CARE what your excuse was for breaking the rules. We just don't care. We care THAT you broke the rules. Your excuse for doing it is utterly irrelevant.
A fundamental tactic of Democrats in 2020 was to take election rules changes which state legislatures had considered and rejected, and implement them anyway, using Covid as an excuse. Your excuse didn't change the fact that you were deliberately breaking the rules.
At the time the election took place, almost all workplaces were back to work, people were going about their lives, with minor adjustments. If I could go to the grocery store, and only have to wear a mask while inside, there was no reason to massively change the way elections were conducted, either.
But that doesn't matter, because the bodies charged with making the rules had considered making those changes, and rejected them. Nobody downstream was entitled to revisit that decision.
No rules were broken, Brett. You not liking how a court treated the rules is not the same as those rules being broken.
A court saying the rules were formally broken, but the remedy is not to ignore any votes, that is also something you should listen to.
At the time the election took place, almost all workplaces were back to work, people were going about their lives, with minor adjustments.
This is flat-out wrong. November 2020 everyone was back to work?! Nope.
I didn't say "everyone" was back to work. I said "almost all workplaces" were back to work. The ones that hadn't gone out of business, anyway.
We weren't as a nation shut down anymore. If you can grocery shop in person, you can vote in person.
Seems the lefts preferred option would have been to vote via Amazon.
While dropping off your groceries etc. they could pick up and deliver your ballot.
This is also not true. Food is not the same as voting.
We were still quite shut down over where I lived, in the DC metro area.
You're doing a 'no one I know voted for Nixon' fallacy.
Yes. Because democeats saw a reason to irrationally scare the populace in order to fortify the election. Those were words chosen by a Democrat official on CNN by the way.
"No rules were broken, Brett." and "A court saying the rules were formally broken..."
You can't have it both ways. Some courts did say the rules were broken but refused to do anything about it. You saying that no rules were broken is nothing more than an outright intentional lie. And I'm not assuming bad faith as you always accuse others of doing while doing it yourself. Your two statements above show that you know that rules were broken. That doesn't mean fraud. It means rules were broken. Lying about that makes it hard to believe you when you adamantly assert that no rules were broken followed by saying that the rules were broken.
How ignorant are you sarcastro? More than 2 dozen lawsuits have said election changes were illegal since the election.
The fact is that most of the rules Republicans complained about were in place for long periods of time and were generally accepted. Rules on absentee voting existed and people did not choose to exercise that choice for the most part. When the pandemic hit, people were incentivized to use this method of voting. You cannot have absentee voting and then pull it back because people are using it preferentially.
Yes.
And one of the underlying assumptions of comments like Brett's is that most vote fraud is committed by Democrats. Republicans, apparently are saints in these matters (except for, you know, "conformed perjurer" Mark Meadows.)
I happen to think that there really is no fraud of any scale, not least because, whatever Brett thinks, it would be massively difficult to carry out such a scheme.
I also think that to the extent voters here and there vote illegally they are equally likely to be of either party.
No, actually, I think that both parties commit vote fraud where they're in a position to do so. Democrats are probably more often in a position to do so, because areas that Democrats dominate to the point where they have exclusive control over the election machinery are more common than areas where Republicans have such dominance; Most areas the Republicans win are only moderately Republican. And for a long while a court settlement had meant that only Democrats got to have poll watchers.
But, where they can, Republicans cheat, too.
This is a bonkers statement that needs more evidence. Given that more than half of state legislatures in the country are controlled by the GOP, your comment makes no sense. This GOP control, BTW, was the key detail in Trump's attempt to overturn a fair election--forcing the election back to the 50 legislatures where the GOP hold a clear majority.
States dont run local voting districts...
Why is this such a prevelant democrat talking point?
1. They were never declared legal. The lawsuits were dismissed.
2. They weren't minor if they effected thousands of votes.
First there is no way to separate ballot box votes. Second no court has ever invalided votes cast in good faith by the voters.
The decision to invalidate ballot boxes is political and has nothing to do with security. Ballot boxes are as secure as US mailboxes. There were used routinely throughout Wisconsin before the 2020 election with no objection by either party. The boxes are no problem, the remedy is not to solve a problem but to appease the vanity of a former President.
The issue is not "ballot boxes", it's "drop boxes". And I agree that, once they were co-mingled, no remedy was possible.
Drop boxes are as secure as mailboxes.
No, not really, more secure. Though they're more attractive targets than mailboxes, too, because you know they're all ballots.
But that doesn't matter if they're not legal.
Look, election rules are supposed to be uniform. You don't get to have longer local voting hours, or an extra local day of voting, or local drop boxes that other places don't have because they insisted on following the law. Everybody is supposed to be playing by the SAME rules.
they're more attractive targets than mailboxes,
There is no evidence any of them were targeted though, so this speculation is just making shit up.
Look, election rules are supposed to be uniform
Nope. They're left to the states, which bespeaks an explicit intent to allow nonuniformity.
Uniform within a given state. You knew what I meant.
I wasn't picking that up.
But that just gives rise to another question. That seems a pretty arbitrary scale to be uniform, no?
You don't get to have longer local voting hours, or an extra local day of voting, or local drop boxes that other places don't have because they insisted on following the law.
So your definition of "uniform" is that every county gets one dropbox. Harris County (pop. 4.7M) gets one and so does Loving County (117). And every county is open the same hours, regardless of population.
"Uniform." "Fair."
No, Brett. You're full of shit. We know what that's about and it's not fairness or uniform rules. It's about your usual objectives.
Is it really just fine to have the same rules? Of course not. You want uniformity? I'll give you real uniformity:
Polling places shall be open on days and at times that make it convenient for voters with varying personal schedules, work or school obligations, and the like to find a time to cast a ballot.
Precincts and polling places shall be set up so that voters' average travel time to cast a vote is equal in every county.
There shall be sufficient polling places, election workers, and days and hours of operation so that, at both peak and average load times, the expected wait experienced by 95% of voters shall be the same in all counties.
The above applies to in-person voting. In areas where meeting these standards is not feasible, for operational or financial reasons, voters shall have the option to vote absentee, by mail or by placing their ballots in specially designated dropboxes.
See. You don't want uniformity. You want pretend uniformity. You want facially uniform rules that in fact make it hard for some people to vote.
Brett? Brett?
No they are not. It is a federal crime to tamper with the mail.
"Drop boxes are as secure as mailboxes."
Mailboxes aren't secure, either.
Where I come from (City of Los Angeles), public mailboxes are routinely stolen from and turned into public outhouses. So your comparison is apt, but it hurts your case.
"Good Faith " means following the rules.
In PA a state senate race was decided because Allegheny County (Pittsburgh Heavy D) allowed mail in ballots that did not meet the criteria established by law and Westmoreland County (Suburban Heavy R) followed the law.
That's not good faith
Failure to establish standing is not the fault of the courts, it is the failure of the attorneys bringing the case. Standing rules are basic and well known. Attorneys need to make their arguments comply with the rules.
I KNOW A LOOPHOLE
Having otherwise legal ballots put into a drop box instead of a mailbox is not cheating. To invalidate an election on such a technical issue would be wrong.
Not in itself, but what was the chain of custody for the ballots before they were put in the drop box?
A absentee voter has to sign and date a form submitted with his ballot, anyone who has temporary custody of a ballot, even for purposes of putting in a drop box or mailbox, should have to sign and date a statement stating when the recieved custody of the ballot and for what purpose.
That doesn’t make any sense. Do you want think that all the mailmen around the state sign affidavits each evening after they pick up that day’s mail?
Hi, David. Obviously you are a lawyer, and have no clue.
If you studied election procedures, you would understand the chain of custody. Absentee mail-in ballots in Wisconsin are tracked from ballot request, through return. A voter can track these on-line and see when their request was made, when their ballot was mailed to them, and when their completed ballot was received by the clerk. If a person ballot was not returned, they could report that to the clerk.
To my knowledge there have been no instances of large number of mail-in ballots reported as not returned.
"Wisconsin are tracked from ballot request, through return."
How many states suddenly did not require a request for a ballot?
I don't know, how many? Certainly not Wisconsin.
Georgia gad 5000 voters told on election day they had already voted by mail. No investigation was ever pursued.
Jesse you always come up with these facts and never back them up. I will ask again, please cite where you got this fertilizer.
"A voter can ..." visit a website and see what the incumbents want them to see. That's all.
Molly,
your "otherwise legal ballots " begs the question. If the chain of custody cannot be assured, the ballots are, at best, of questionable legality.
That consideration also applies to the issues surrounding vote harvesting.
Congrats on the delegitimization of absentee voting.
Election workers de-legitimized absentee voting. The laws were in black and white, and ignored.
“Congrats on the delegitimization of absentee voting.”
Huh? The burden is on those who support absentee voting to “legitimize” it.
It doesn't take a lot of work to delegitimize; The US is an outlier in terms of use of them. Only about a quarter of countries use them at all, and for most countries that use them, use is restricted to proven need.
We're actually an outlier in terms of a lot of our voting practices, and not in a good way. For instance, most countries looked at electronic voting machines, and decided to stick with paper ballots.
Maybe you should check those claims, Brett. A paywalled article by John Lott doesn't convince me.
A quick google reveals that the UK, Germany, and Canada all allow very free absentee voting. The UK even allows proxy voting by an authorized representative. France does not have significant absentee voting.
Congrats. You've named 3 countries. Surely that is more than 25% of all countries.
Jimmy carters election committee called them the number one source of fraud for decades.
You can just admit that you think laws are at best a suggestion.
Don,
How is the chain of custody for the dropboxes worse than that for USPS mailboxes?
This is all vote suppression crap, and you know it.
There are a host of potential issues with drop boxes. Let's give one example though.
Let's say before a hotly contested election in a given state, a political actor decides to visit several drop boxes, and rather than inserting a ballot, they insert a caustic substance that makes the ballots unreadable.
What should be the response?
For example...
https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/ballot-box-fire-arson-vote-election/
Wisconsin statute 6.84(2) on absentee ballots says: "Notwithstanding s. 5.01 (1), with respect to matters relating to the absentee ballot process, ss. 6.86, 6.87 (3) to (7) and 9.01 (1) (b) 2. and 4. shall be construed as mandatory. Ballots cast in contravention of the procedures specified in those provisions may not be counted. Ballots counted in contravention of the procedures specified in those provisions may not be included in the certified result of any election."
It may not be "cheating". But the law - which is by no means new - says those votes shouldn't have been counted and shouldn't have been certified.
The entire strategy of the Trump campaign was to try to pretend that this constituted fraud, or to challenge technical irregularities in court documents while representing to the public that they were challenging fraud.
It’s not technical irregularities when the law says that the votes don’t count, and they were counted.
You're aware a cop performing an illegal search is a "Technical irregularity". As much as this, easily.
It meets the elements of election fraud, so they were challenging fraud. Of course they were also committing fraud, but that doesn't gainsay my first sentence; that's just "whataboutism."
Do you want to take a minute and do that? This post isn't going anywhere...
#1 is about cvhanging rules, not illegal results.
It would have already passed were it not for the majority's determination (On display for one bill after another.) to pass the most favorable bill to from their perspective that can barely squeak through, rather than a bill that has broad bipartisan agreement. They view this as a 'must pass' bill that will force a few Republican Senators to grit their teeth and vote for a partisan measure.
You think it’s Dems preventing this from passing?
Am Dem, do think so.
There is a bipartisan team working now. Whatever they come up with, let’s see who blocks it.
Just to be clear, if the Democrats add something to the bill besides the features which already have bipartisan support, and as a result Republicans vote against it, are you going to admit the Democrats blocked it? Or are you going to insist that the Republicans are obligated to vote for whatever the Democrats send their way?
Are you going to insist that the Democrats vote for whatever the Republicans want?
I'm not insisting that anybody vote for anything. I'm just asking Sarcastr0 what his definition of "blocking" is.
I'd like to see the ECA amendments that have bipartisan support pass. I approve of them myself. The only way that's going to happen is if they're NOT stuck in the same bill with amendments that DON'T have bipartisan support.
Which is what the Democrats have been doing so far.
Your goalposts are pretty unrealistic and you know it. It'll be a fact-based inquiry checking for poison pills &c.
Which you know is what's in question. You're not usually one for pedantic antics
My impression was that the senate has been ready to pass this for months, with the support of the non-psychotic Republicans, but that the House majority has insisted on logrolling it into its larger voting rights bill (which, needless to say, has no prospect of passing).
Am I mistaken?
The actual answer is to shift the turnover of office to June of the next year in order for proper investigations as to election day shenanigans be done instead of lawsuits being thrown out by those in the black robes for not being timely.
Given that Congress is the judge of the presidential election, why do you think there is any place for court action? (I actually do think Bush v. Gore was improper for this reason). Florida should have been allowed to submit whatever electors various officials thought proper and then left it up to Congress to decide which (if any) to count.
The states decide who the electors are to be according to state law and the electors then gather to vote in their states on a day set by Congress. The Electoral Votes are then sent to Congress.
Congress only has any role in selecting the President if no one gets a majority of the Electoral Votes. The Constitutional language of the President of the Senate opening the EVs and they then "shall be counted" is pretty obviously a formal procedure for announcing the EV results, not an invitation to decide whether to count them.
The Electoral Count Act of 1887 only came about because of the disputes over which Electors were the real ones in 1876, as a few states had different officials declaring different Electors. Look up the history there if you don't know it.
The Trump side claimed that the certified results in some states shouldn't be counted because of fraud, but there was no dispute over what the certified results were or which state officials had the legal authority to sign off on the results.
By the way, the handful of Democrats that had objected to previous elections (2000, 2004, and 2016, I believe) were not offering valid objections either, but it is still not comparable in scale at all to what those 140-something GOP members of Congress did on Jan. 6, 2020, as none of those times were there anything close to enough Democrats on board for it to be more than a stunt. I don't think they even got both one Senator and one House member to object in those years required to trigger each chamber to have to vote on it. Nor did anyone suggest that Gore or Biden had the unilateral authority as President of the Senate to refuse to count the disputed votes.
I think you misunderstand. Trump's lawsuits were not untimely because there wasn't enough time for investigations; they were untimely because they took place after the election.
You can't contest the election under one set of rules, wait to see if you win, and only if you lose argue that there should've been a different set of rules. You get one bite at the apple, not two.
I'm genuinely curious how you think the people of Georgia should have known ahead of time that poll workers were going to pretend to pack up their stations, lie to the poll watchers that they were done counting for the night to get them out of the building, lie to the media as to why they stopped counting, and 15 minutes after all the watchers had left, unpack all their stations, pull out two concealed boxes of ballots and resume counting.
And I'm genuinely curious why you think that an election administered and supervised by Trump supporters, and which had two or three recounts and whatnot, and which Biden won, ws fraudulent.
I'm also curious why you believe this oft-debunked - including by Trump-supporting GA election officials - BS story.
"debunked"
Ah yes, who ya gonna believe, GA election officials or your lying eyes. It's not like the video, media reports with timestamps, and the available work order reports for the night in question aren't public at this point or anything... oh wait.
I'm going to believe GA election official, rather than Sydney Powell or some other Trumpist lunatic's interpretation of a video, or yours either.
Oh. And it wasn't a suitcase.
You can provide YOUR "interpretation" of the video if you so choose. Think for yourself.
Sigh. The Trump-supporting¹ Georgia governor and Trump-supporting Georgia secretary of state have both explained repeatedly that this didn't happen. You were lied to by Trump and his lackeys.
¹By "Trump-supporting," I mean that they endorsed and campaigned for Trump before the election; I don't mean, obviously, that they swore fealty to Trump and decided they'd do whatever it took, no matter how false or illegal, to declare him the winner.
"While there is some dispute over details, there is broad agreement on these and related points among election and constitutional law experts across the political spectrum."
This alone should set off your bullshit detector.
Broad agreement sets you off?
That’s the philosophy of a knee jerk unthinking radical.
If have any humility, experts agreeing should mean something to you.
Sarcastr0, the other possibility besides lacking humility is that he is simply engaging in conspiracy thinking. Anyone that supposedly is on the Republican side that agrees with Democrats about the 2020 election and related topics is either a RINO Never-Trumper, corrupt, or is being intimidated into going along with the evil plot. Any consensus of experts that there is no conspiracy is further proof of the conspiracy. I don't remember who posted it, but in a recent thread, there was a joke that went something like this: (too lazy to try and find it again)
An American couple dies in a car accident and arrives in Heaven. They meet the Almighty and ask Him, "What happened with the 2020 election, who was responsible for the fraud?" God replies, "There was no fraud, my children. Joe Biden won fair and square." They look at each other after a moment of stunned silence. "This goes up even higher than we thought."
Don’t go there with experts. I agree that there’s no proof that the election was illegitimate and think Biden won. Bad for us that he did but he did. I’m fine with tightening the process to further discourage bullshit as long as the zealidiots in congress can avoid pushing for political advantage - which unfortunately is not possible.
But our “experts” have created a toxic mess and have the unfortunate habit of pissing on our leg and telling us it’s raining. No thanks on the experts.
Expertise matters. It's not determinative, but it absolutely matters.
The right-wing drumbeat to disregard experts as not honest does not change the reality.
Just experts who have no expertise
Right wing drumbeat. I’m not right wing but it’s hard to miss the fact that right now we’ve got and have had a fucked up mess. The pandemic response was a fucked up mess. And don’t scream “trump” at me. A much bigger problem was our public health experts destroying their credibility by politicizing their response to the Floyd protests/riots.
Our business experts have squeezed so much cost out of the system that you can’t reliably get a new car or a scan with contrast because they’ve left no backups in the process because those cost money.
Our current energy experts have wrecked our energy security and affordability and are happily progressing toward wrecking it more.
We’re being destroyed by expertise. Please, no more experts.
You may not be right-wing, but you are in this case moving along their narrative lines. And it's an incorrect narrative - based on anecdote and appeals to incredulity.
Look at the subjects you chose - BLM and Covid? Those are FOX News standbys. You may not watch FOX News, but you are absolutely lockstep with their propaganda in this area.
Except for your pet are of energy, where you blame Biden for all price rises, but put all price falls on supply and demand operating as intended. Not a narrative motivated by tribal partisanship, perhaps, but definitely an asymmetrical narrative.
Please, no more experts.
Your opinions are being fed by people who are claiming to be experts (sometimes those people are you yourself!). You may choose different ones from the consensus, but your opinions are not ones you made up out of whole cloth.
Everyone appeals to experts and authority; pretending you don't is silly.
I don’t watch Fox News so you’re gonna have to find another source. Those guys must have the same keen grasp of the obvious that I do.
There is one group on the planet that can generate enough supply to crash oil prices and Biden and his hopelessly unqualified energy secretary have their boots on that group’s neck. Better to go begging for higher production from Saudi Arabia, where presumably their hydrocarbons don’t contain carbon. It’s a fucking joke.
To read the comments on this blog you'd think nobody anywhere ever watched Fox News.
Amazing how they continue to have high ratings and sell ads. Problem at Nielsen, maybe.
"Experts" has lost it's meaning over the last two years. So yea BS detector is really high. Fauci and Birx were also "experts".
I have a better idea. Any changes to election procedures need to be made by a state legislature, not a Governor or Secretary of State by decree, even if there is a pandemic.
Why do you think that’s a “better idea”? Why do you think that the 2020 election should have been the first time ever in which neither elections administrators — people tasked by the legislature with running elections — or courts should have any role in elections?
David, He said any changes. Constitution lays out the power to run elections rests with State Legislators.
And how is that different from what happened? Legislatures always write laws that leave all kinds of details to various officials as they implement the law. Then courts will adjudicate disputes over whether those officials are following the law correctly and faithfully. State courts will deal with questions of state laws and constitutions, and federal courts will deal with questions about federal laws and the federal Constitution.
What happens when unforeseen events make following the law difficult or even impossible or when following the state laws regarding elections would conflict with individual voting rights? Again, courts will hear disputes over the limits of the discretion of election officials to accommodate voters due to those unforeseen events.
I don't see any reason to think that what happened in this regard in 2020 is different in kind from any previous disputes of that nature. It was only different in scale because of the public health emergency happening at the time.
Why did the vote count spike so high in 2020. You really think it was enthusiasm for the mugwumps that ran?
Look at their individual approval now. I don’t think it was enthusiasm.
There was plenty of enthusiasm to vote against Trump.
But of course there were more votes because voting was easier and because there was a lot less else to do in 2020, sure. And?
"...because there was a lot less else to do..."
Hmm. I hadn't even thought of that. Good point.
Also weird how absentee ballots saw their failure rate drop through the floor the year their usage increased exponentially.
The issue wasn’t legislatures giving the executives a bunch of room to flesh out details, but rather, requiring that certain things be true before votes are counted, and the executive officials saying “nope - we aren’t going to follow the law there”. The law might say that a ballot must have X, Y, and Z to be counted, and the governor or Secretary of State then would say that X and Z weren’t required.
Or courts rule that it's OK for some places not to follow the laws because the partisan court doesn't like the rules the legislature made.
"Run elections," must be kept ministerial. It cannot be allowed to encompass decide elections, or influence outcomes.
Same, by the way, for the courts, state or federal.
The sole power to decide elections must rest with the voters.
The states owe the voters a properly administered election, with an accurate count, reached by pre-established procedures, and completed by a specified date.
The courts need jurisdiction to see that the state role is efficiently fulfilled within that strictly-ministerial scope.
Nobody except voters should have any power to do anything which would predictably affect the count.
So, how, exactly, do the voters do this, without some intermediating institution?
They do it through government, acting purely ministerially—which means with an eye to facilitating maximal voting and accurate counting—prior to the completion of an election.
How is that controlled? Legally.
The state legislature passes a law forbidding drop boxes. Opponents sue, on the basis of non-ministerial administration. The court finds that on balance the ban unreasonably burdens voting, rather than facilitating it, and ministerially forbids the drop-box ban as an impediment to voting. Or, if the court finds ample evidence that drop boxes have contributed to fraudulent voting, the court approves the drop box ban, as a ministerially reasonable means to assure an accurate count.
All of that gets done before voting begins.
I agree that the legislature has the authority to set election procedures. That is a managerial function, but legislature cannot micromanage election and at some point decisions need to be made by people on the ground. You cannot have a polling site calling the legislature on election day and making every decision. Poll worker calls the legislature say "I have a problem here, its not cover in the books, I need the legislature to come in session and decide this matter now". This will not work.
It is also worth noting that the Republican legislature in many cases were objecting to rules they themselves had put in place years before. This was the case with Wisconsin's "indefinitely confided rule". Passed by Republicans and objected to after the election.
The standard is often that if a vote can not be cast in accordance with the law, as is and written by Congress, it is an illegitimate vote and should not be accepted. At the polling place a voter can alter their behavior to comply with the rules (voter marks two candidates for one race, they can submit this for termination and get a new ballot to try again within the rules).
That is the thing... anything that "comes up" either prompts a redo in accordance with the law or is discounted. That is the solution.
What people are complaining about is that instead someone sought to cast a ballot outside those rules (no verifying signature, accept votes past deadlines, create new voting stations outside the specified rules) and then have the rules contorted to fit the behavior so as to legitimize it.
And often both parties were acting in good faith I believe. But two people acting in good faith can still produce illegal/unjust outcomes.
Either do what Congress said in the manner they said it (and the agencies are tasked with carrying this out, not deciding "what" to carry out) or don't and invalidate the vote.
It really is that simple. And that it is that simple yet so many people keep trying to defend the "good faith" actors (and often denying the very possibility of bad faith actors working in such a lenient system) is why there is huge levels of distrust.
It is very much like Brett's shuffling below the table comment. If you shuffle below the table you may have shuffled honestly. The correctness of the shuffle doesn't yet enter the calculus. The problem at this point is that no one else at the table knows for sure. It sowes distrust for good reason. If your goal is to be considered a legitimate winner, it is in your best interest to comply with the rules openly, honestly, and stringently so as to undermine any claims of foul play. If you can not prove fair play, by definition foul play is now a possibility. That possibility casts doubt on integrity. And when it comes to elections that really... REALLY matters.
sparkstable — Over-voting is a problem which arises when a voter, contrary to the rules, marks for a candidate at the correct line of the ballot, but then, contrary to the rules, fills in a name as a write in—but with the same candidate named.
Under your interpretation of the rules, is that an invalid vote, or does the unambiguous certainty of the voter's intent trump the rule?
Good God, people.
If the electoral count process makes you nervous now, just wait until the Keystone Kongress gets ahold of it.
Why do people innately assume that government action is a good bet to fix any given problem? Why hasn't literally centuries of evidence taught us the obvious lesson? Government action has maybe a 20% chance of success, a 50% chance of abject failure and waste of resources, and a 30% chance of making things significantly worse? Is no one watching these idiots?
…who do you think created that process?
OK Union, who else should fix the political process?
The problems begin way before the electoral count and should be the first thing addressed, like clean voter rolls which are regularly verified and updated.
The 2020 election is probably the worst model to use in evaluating changes in election laws. Some of the factors that affected the 2020 vote counts were special procedures intended to deal with the pandemic; some of those procedures have been eliminated or expired, and all should be reconsidered. In addition, this was an election in which BOTH SIDES were prepared in advance to deny the legitimacy of the other side's victory.
I look at the 2000 election as a better model. It was VERY close. The outcome depended on the resolution of significant issues in one State. Partisans of one candidate (Gore) sought to force a partial recount, only in some counties that supported Gore, which would likely increase Gore's majority in those counties, perhaps by enough to make his State-wide minority a majority. The Supreme Court ruled that the Florida legislature had the final word on how to resolve these issues.
The State Legislatures should resolve any disputes and certify the results. Litigation in State courts over disputes about irregularities in election procedures cannot resolve those issues within the time limits. I sympathize with the Trump supporters that think "they was robbed"; they probably were. Tough luck (for them and for the rest of us).
Can you sure the calculations that allowed you to compute those odds?
Why hasn't this been done, now that "the adults are back in charge" in government? Surely the veritable brain trust currently running the White House, House of Representatives, and Senate can see the problem.
Again, one is forced to note that all these "constitutional law experts" were silent when congressional Democrats challenged electoral counts in 2001, 2005, and 2017. But nothing is ever a problem until it might benefit the Republicans, at which point it is immediately recognized as an existential crisis by these suddenly-awaken "experts".
I suspect the chief roadblock to this reform is that Democrats would insist on attaching various other "election reforms" institutionalizing voter-fraud aids like ballot harvesting, long regarded as a felony in many jurisdictions, but lately recognized as a tremendous aid in increasing Democrat vote totals.
Maybe we should take a hard look at the Carter/Baker report and use that as a starting point.
That has nothing to do with the problem being addressed here. Smells like deflection.
Want to leave this door open for the GOP to fuck with again in 2024?
You think the GOP fucks with elections? Sure they do. And so do all the other major parties.
We all know 2020 was special in that regard.
Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.
Doing so just means I’m qualified to be considered an expert.
LOL.
None of those challenges were serous. They were all symbolic, known to be doomed from the start. 2020 was a very different thing, one of at least 4 ways (Count, fake slates, governors finding votes, Jan 06) Trump tried to subvert our Democracy after he lost.
Suspecting some kind of future conditional is evidence only of your worldview, not the real world.
So your defense of those previous challenges is that they were frivolous and unserious, whereas the latest (ultimately unheard) challenges were made sincerely? That is an interesting defense.
And while my worldview may not be as sophisticated as yours, which seems to be, "Democrats good; Republicans bad", my acknowledged speculation is indeed based on my view of the world, for example, the fact that Democrats currently control the Presidency, House, and Senate.
And, if it was insufficiently clear from my original post, I would support the outlined proposed reforms.
Yes, I can tell what is a protest and what is deadly seriously and so can you.
That you go straight to my motives is a tell as well. You don’t know that about me, but it is handy to dismiss my issue with your assumption being based on Dems cheated. Which is not established!
You've demonstrated your motives in thread after thread. If you don't want people to go straight to them, get some better ones.
I’m sure you were able to make that distinction when cities were burning in 2020, right? Because most of your party and the media and public health officials couldn’t.
I'm sorry, but no. If you think it's illegitimate to vote against accepting the results of a valid election (it is), then you have to actually say that whenever people do it.
I am also allowed to change my opinion when what was once used as sort of an edgy protest vote is now used in an attempt to actively discard the will of the voters.
I didn't think that was a possibility. It is. I'm good with a blanket condemnation from now on going forwards. The facts changed, and so I've changed my opinion. But I also allow the those previously voting against the EC may also have a different opinion going forwards.
I used to see Dems vote against the entering of yesterday's journal into the record as a protest. Didn't take that seriously either. Maybe I should have?
Absolutely -- I never want to discourage people to change their minds and start agreeing with me. It didn't come across that way at first, but if your conclusion is, "in retrospect, the Democrats who denied the legitimacy of the elections in 2000, 2004, 2016, and 2018 were playing a dangerous game, we shouldn't tolerated it then, and we're not going to stand for it in the future", then we're on the same page. Thank you for clarifying.
Not quite. I think the universe pre-2020 was a different one with different norms. The rules of the game were different then, so it wasn't as dangerous.
But going forwards, with that norm busted, you and I do agree - regardless of party, I join you in condemning any and all play that game in the future.
"in retrospect, the Democrats who denied the legitimacy of the elections in 2000, 2004, 2016, and 2018 were playing a dangerous game, we shouldn't tolerated it then, and we're not going to stand for it in the future", then we're on the same page.
This ignores the huge differences between 2021 and those cases. The biggest is that previously it was "some Democrats." In 2021 it was very much "the Republicans," very much encouraged by their failed candidate. And the difference in the vote counts in Congress is significant and telling.
Suppose, to take the extreme case, only one Democrat had challenged in previous years. Would you still regard that as equivalent?
I'm sorry, but no. If you think it's illegitimate to vote against accepting the results of a valid election (it is), then you have to actually say that whenever people do it.
As I point out in my replies to Brett above, the times some Democrats objected got some mentions in news reports, but those objections were largely ignored or forgotten by most people. Sure, there are still some ardent Democrats that hold grudges over the 2000 and 2004 elections, and yeah, more Democrats hold grudges over 2016, but most really just didn't like that Trump was elected. In an ABC News/Washington Post poll from the week after the 2016 election, 58% of Hillary supporters accepted the results as legitimate. On the other hand, an NPR/PBS News Hour/Marist poll from Dec 2020 put only 24% of Republicans accepting the 2020 results.
So, had the objections from Republicans unfolded in the same manner as previous objections from Democrats, then I wouldn't have thought either to be that big of a deal. It is with the hindsight of seeing how Trump managed to turn partisan displeasure with the results into a fervor that became violent that I now view those previous objections more negatively than simple 'protest' objections and grandstanding.
So, if you want to know why non-Republicans didn't make a big deal about the previous Democrat objections at the time, it is only because they had no significant effect and weren't intended to succeed.
If it matters to you, I didn't vote for either Bush or Gore in 2000, and did vote for Bush in 2004. So that some Democrats objected to the candidate I voted for becoming President in 2004 didn't bother me at all then, if I even noticed that it happened, which I don't remember. And while I did vote for Hillary in 2016 (entirely as a vote against Trump - I still registered Republican then), I never doubted that Trump legitimately won.
I'm not saying that you have to think that the election-denial antics in 2020 was exactly as bad as all the times the Democrats did it in the past: clearly, there were a lot more lunatics and useful idiots this time, and the consequences of that were, predictably, worse. But if you're not going to call out the Democrats as bad, and if you're not willing to treat, say, Stacy Abrams (who is still unwilling to admit that she lost in 2018!) as personae non gratae in the same vein as, say, Lin Wood or Sidney Powell, then you just might be a partisan hack.
But if you're not going to call out the Democrats as bad, and if you're not willing to treat, say, Stacy Abrams (who is still unwilling to admit that she lost in 2018!) as personae non gratae in the same vein as, say, Lin Wood or Sidney Powell, then you just might be a partisan hack.
I'm not aware of Stacy Abrams saying anything actually false about the race for governor in Georgia in 2018. Reasonable people can disagree with her conclusion that people were struck from voter rolls under then Sec. of State Kemp for partisan reasons and that it was sufficient to question the legitimacy of Kemp's victory over her. Sidney Powell and Lin Wood, plus Trump himself, Rudy, and many others, have made so many claims proven to be false as part of their charges that the election was 'stolen' from Trump, that they are personae non gratae for that. It is hardly only that they are unwilling to admit that Trump lost.
So, no, I don't think that I am a partisan hack because I have seen nothing from any Democrat that even comes close to the absurdities of Trump's Big Lie.
Your comparison between Abrams and Wood and Powell is foolish.
Abrams has filed one lawsuit about the election, and whatever you think of her claims they are not comparable to the farrago of lies Wood and Powell ("Gee, nobody in their right mind would believe a word I said") have put in front of courts and the public.
"Yes, I can tell what is a protest and what is deadly seriously and so can you."
Yeah, it is OK if you're not really serious. If you are, it is the end of democracy.
It is sad how citizens casting votes, having those votes accurately counted, and the candidate with the most votes winning is so adamantly opposed by Republicans.
"It is sad how "
What is sad is how distorted and partisan your worldview is
LOL
Would you be comfortable with UN votes being cast by worldwide individuals? Or individual country's votes being weighted by population?
In the US, we do both, which is what brings us the House and the Senate.
I don't care how the UN works since that isn't the OP.
The UN does not have jurisdiction in the US.
Your example is idiotic.
Constitutionally “Election Day” is the date specified by Congress on which the Electors cast their votes. There’s also a “Chusing Day” on which the Electors are chosen. The Chusing Day is only the day on which ordinary citizens participate in a popular election if and to the extent that the State Legislature says so.
Consequently Reform 1 is constitutionally perilous. Of course the State Legislature is not allowed to substitute its own slate of Electors after Chusing Day, but that is so whatever Congress has to say on the subject.
But if for example the State Legislature decides that the Method of Choosing Electors is to hold a popular election for competing Slates of Electors on, say, June 1; and specifies that the Electors will be those selected in the popular election, provided that both houses of the State Legislature do not otherwise specify on Chusing Day ; then that is an entirely constitutional Method of Chusing Electors, and there’s nothing Congress can do about it.
That doesn't sound right, no. A state legislature could decide to hold a non-binding referendum on June 1, I suppose, and then actually pick electors itself on November x. But you seem to be saying that a state would hold an actual election on June 1, but one that could be overridden by the legislature on November x if the legislature decides to do that. And that isn't constitutional, because if the legislature doesn't decide to do that, then the electors were picked on June 1.
I think a state could, constitutionally, hold a non-binding referendum that established the default slate of electors provided that the state legislature didn't act to change it. They'd have authority to do that under the constitution, which gives state legislatures pretty much plenary power in this area so long as they don't violate any contrary provision of the Constitution.
But, of course, if they did that, there would be a case for penalizing them under the 14th amendment, Section 2. They could still do it, but they'd be subject to the penalty.
If it were just non-binding, period, the case would be weaker.
because if the legislature doesn't decide to do that, then the electors were picked on June 1.
I beg to differ. The voters have merely selected a slate of Electors on June 1, to becomecandidates to be confirmed or rejected by the Legislature's choice on November x. Which may be to confirm the public choice by suitable action or inaction, or to reject it. The benefit of the successfully slate is that the public's slate becomes the legal default should the Legislature fail to agree on an alternative. But it is the Legislature's choice on November 1 which determines the Electors.
It's akin to an option - the purchase or sale, or non purchase or non sale, of the relevant asset is not made until the option is exercised, or lapses.
Making this all clear is just a matter of suitable drafting.
I beg to differ. The voters have merely selected a slate of Electors on June 1, to becomecandidates to be confirmed or rejected by the Legislature's choice on November x. Which may be to confirm the public choice by suitable action or inaction, or to reject it.
I suppose it is a matter of semantics, or perhaps philosophy, as to whether choosing not to act qualifies as an action in itself. If the legislature has the option to accept the non-binding vote of the people or choose its own slate of electors, then is doing nothing really an act of choosing? If the legislature must act on a particular day, voting yea or nay, then that would definitely be the day of "Chusing". Perhaps there is some established legal principle that says that the date that something takes effect because someone failed to exercise an option is to be considered the day that the effect is 'chosen', but I wouldn't see why that would matter in most contexts. But it does matter here.
All of that aside, is it even acceptable to you or any other voter for a legislature to act in a way exactly contrary to how the majority of voters wanted on something that specific? It is one thing for a legislature to pass laws or fail to pass laws that are highly popular, since people vote for their representatives for a large number of reasons. But if the people vote on specific issue X and a majority wants it, why should a legislature that supposedly represents the people even be able to override that?
Damn no edit: Clarifying -
It is one thing for a legislature to pass laws [that are unpopular] or fail to pass laws that are highly popular...
No it’s not acceptable to me for the legislature to override the votes of the majority, always provided that the election, including the counting and the adjudication of disputes, was held in the manner specified by the legislature in advance.
But if the election has not been so held, and if it’s reasonable to believe that departures from the rules has produced a fictitious majority then I’m OK with the political branch which is subject to the voters wrath overriding the courts.
Because some courts are just as politically biased as legislatures.
Moreover I think that the state executive and courts ignoring the rules set by the legislature would be less likely - because less profitable - if they knew that the legislature had the final word.
But if the election has not been so held, and if it’s reasonable to believe that departures from the rules has produced a fictitious majority then I’m OK with the political branch which is subject to the voters wrath overriding the courts.
Who decides whether it is "reasonable" to believe that the rules were broken and that the violations might have made a difference? And how are legislators with the ability to override voters subject to the voters' wrath? If legislatures don't trust election officials to manage elections for President, why should their own elections be legit?
Just how many judges do you think there are as biased as legislators would be in deciding whether to view an election as invalid when it doesn't come out they way they want?
When any losing candidate starts claiming that they lost due to fraud or even just "irregularities" or procedural violations, those claims absolutely must be subject to scrutiny in as neutral and objective a forum as can be found. A legislature is about the last place I would look to find such a forum.
Who decides whether it is "reasonable" to believe that the rules were broken and that the violations might have made a difference?
The legislature.
And how are legislators with the ability to override voters subject to the voters' wrath?
Legislators cannot override State courts and State constitutions in State matters - such as state elections. The power to determine the Manner of Chusing Electors is a direct grant of federal power to the State Legislature.
When any losing candidate starts claiming that they lost due to fraud or even just "irregularities" or procedural violations, those claims absolutely must be subject to scrutiny in as neutral and objective a forum as can be found. A legislature is about the last place I would look to find such a forum.
I sympathise with that point of view, but the idea that the courts are neutral and objective is, alas, a fantasy. Which is not to say that there are no honest judges, merely that it is a pretence to claim that the courts are honest and neutral.
And consequently, it's better for the elected legislature to be the final decider.
While there's nothing wrong with the three general principles, a Congress willing to overlook enough electoral votes to change the outcome is likely to be willing to overlook the statute, which is only advisory when it comes to the workings of Congress. Does the proposed act require more signatures of state officials on purported electoral vote certificates? That would discourage submission of fake electoral votes in the future, but the fake votes were not taken seriously in the 2020 election. And it raises the possibility of a state official of the losing party refusing to sign the document.
"3. Making it more clear that the Vice-President does not have the power to invalidate electoral votes"
I guess that concedes it wasn't perfectly clear before.
I didn't think the "President of the Senate", could invalidate the votes, but if Congress doesn't think it was clear enough that they have to change the statute it's going to be hard to justify prosecuting someone that also thought it wasn't clear.
I didn't think the "President of the Senate", could invalidate the votes, but if Congress doesn't think it was clear enough that they have to change the statute it's going to be hard to justify prosecuting someone that also thought it wasn't clear.
If I think that the law isn't clear about whether I can take a six pack of beer from a convenience store without paying for it, would that make it hard to prosecute me for shoplifting?
There was never any real doubt about whether Pence could invalidate any Electoral Votes, but Trump was just looking for anything he could use as an excuse to be declared not a loser. That Eastman didn't even really seem to believe that it would be legal for Pence to toss any votes, but said Pence should do it anyway is itself pretty damning.
So what?
Yeah, what difference does it make that a supposed constitutional lawyer was arguing for Pence to do something that he admitted not a single Supreme Court Justice would support as being constitutional?
What difference does it make that Trump then told the crowd of his supporters (that he allegedly knew included people with weapons, after all, they weren't there to hurt him) that Pence absolutely did have the power to do that, and that they needed to march to the Capitol to "fight like hell" to push Pence to do it?
What difference does it make that many of those people took that seriously enough to start chanting "Hang Mike Pence!" inside the Capitol while Secret Service was rushing him to a secure location?
What difference does it make that Trump allegedly responded that maybe the crowd had reason to be upset with Pence when told that they were threatening to hang him?
"Yeah, what difference does it make that a supposed constitutional lawyer was arguing for Pence to do something that he admitted not a single Supreme Court Justice would support as being constitutional?"
Pres Obama did precisely that, in case you forgot.
I forgot. Please remind me.
DACA. He, himself, said he did not have the power to just give amnesty.
Then, he changed his mind and did so.
Indeed Obama said he could not suspend deportations through an executive order. But, he didn't say doing so would garner no SCOTUS votes and he was obviously persuaded (rightly, in my view) that prosecutorial discretion permitted it.
It might be sufficient, however, to bind the USSC should they get involved and think it's in their best interest to let the VP overturn an election.
I guess that concedes it wasn't perfectly clear before.
Well, it was clear to sane people, but there are those who have to be hit on the head with a 2x4.
Like The Electoral Count Act of 1887 (ECA) just as it is,
You do know there is the "Invention" Called the "Senate" and "House of Representatives" that can pass or repeal laws?? Assuming that is still true.....
OK, repeal/replace the fucking thing, or STFU
Of course there is that pesky Article 2 Clause 2 Section 1 "Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector."
So pretty much up to the States how they select "Electors"
Seriously, does anyone here think Sleepy's going to be the DemoKKKratic Candidate in 2024 (I Hope so, only in the sense that he would still have to be alive, and the prospect of his being replaced might help the Economy"
On the topic of fixing the elections the problem has tended to be that both parties prefer the same solution, making it more difficult for anyone to vote for the other party. It's the only way to make sure rhe good guys win...
If we're going to go through the effort of changing election laws then we need to look at ways of breaking the two party stranglehold on state ballot access.
No way, man. My side is as pure as the driven snow. We’d give up power honorably before we’d monkey with things so we could win.
Now those other guys….well I’ll just say “Hitler”. Or “Stalin”. You can’t trust those fascists/commies.
All of this is shuffling chairs on the deck of the Titanic. It might prevent problems in the immediate aftermath of the election but fails miserably at dealing with the much larger problems of the presidential system of government this change ultimately supports.
But saving the captain of the ship while the ship sinks out from underneath the captain accomplishes nothing. It is time to reconsider this nation’s form of government.
There is more than ample research showing that presidential systems of governance rank by several indicators as the worst form of government when compared to semi-presidential and parliamentary forms of governance. Among the indexes include those from Freedom House which ranks presidential government lower than all others in preserving the most essential aspect of human desire: FREEDOM.
It is time to consider an alternative to the worst form of government that purports to support rule by the people and consider a parliamentary system.
I would go further to surmise that if not for the federal system of the US, the central government would have failed long before now if it was a unitary system.
Consider the following changes: https://libertyseekingrebel.blogspot.com/2021/09/freedom-amendments.html?m=1
Yeah, just imagine how free and powerful this country could have been if those moronic founders hadn't bothered with that whole separation of powers nonsense!
Separation of power doctrine has failed. We would be better off with the Article of Confederation but instead, “those moronic founders” as you describe them designed the Constitution, not as a document enshrining liberty, but as the charter of a new, powerful, centralized government designed by Madison, Hamilton, and their cohorts in a coup at Philadelphia.
Agreed, just think how free people in New York or California would be right now if it that whole bill of rights thing wasn't in the way! If it weren't for deep state tyrants like James Madison, we might have almost as many rights as a parliamentary state like the UK or Australia!
Separation of power doctrine has failed.
Separation of powers failed to live up to design as soon as political parties formed. And that happened by the time Washington's second term was ending.
The real problem with how the U.S. government is structured the two-party system. With only two viable parties, the negative partisanship directed toward Party A tends to drive the decisions of voters more than finding a good match to their preferences in Party B. That results in both parties not having to please their voters as much as convincing them that the other party would be worse.
And it is the way legislators and executive offices are chosen in our elections that leads to a two-party system. First-past-the-post winners* makes for only two viable parties. Any third party that tries to squeeze in will almost certainly draw from one of the major two more than the other and split those voters. Thus, a majority party becomes two minority parties instead. Something like ranked choice voting or straight proportional representation would be necessary to break the two-party system. With more than two parties actually getting into office in significant numbers, the parties would have more incentive to make positive appeals to favor them, rather than mostly trashing the opposition.
*Having runoffs if no candidate gets more than 50% doesn't change this significantly, since you still only end up with a choice between two candidates in the runoff. For instance, Candidate A gets 40%, Candidate B gets 35%, and the rest of the votes go to others. Are the supporters of those other candidates as motivated to show up for the runoff as those that voted for the top two? Of course not. That ends up discouraging people from voting for lesser party candidates in the first round.
The real problem here is two fold:
1) A vast expansion in the power of the federal government, both reach and extent.
2) A growing belief, at least among Democrats, that even the narrowest majority, (50% plus a die breaker, for instance.) entitles you to make massive and irreversible changes.
Combine them and every election is an existential risk, you may lose it all if you lose the election. You can have a friendly game of cards if it's penny ante. If your entire life savings and future are riding on it, you ARE going to cheat if you can, you ARE going to assume the other guy is cheating if he wins.
The only way to get any peace in this country is to roll back how much elections matter. Less power for the federal government, and stop insisting that you can do big things with tiny, transient majorities.
I don't see how we get from here to there, though, short of a constitutional convention or revolution.
Brett Bellmore, I could not have said it any better myself.
I would suggest that short of revolution, the amendments in the link in my original comment would help to accomplish exactly what you suggest.
I would go further and state that the failure to make these changes may result in a grave, negative outcome.
"The only way to get any peace in this country is to roll back how much elections matter. Less power for the federal government, and stop insisting that you can do big things with tiny, transient majorities."
Yes! Roe v Wade was a good start. It eliminated a made up constitutional right and returned the issue of abortion to the states. Seems like over the past 80-100 years there has been a scope creep where the Feds assume authority where it has not been granted by the constitution.
Way back we needed a constitutional amendment, 16A to establish a Federal Income Tax, Now it seems the Fed right to taxation is unlimited. It shouldn't be.
Repealing 16A would get us a long way to that goal.
Doesn't that make the elections for the people who will make the laws governing that issue higher-stakes, not lower?
Naw, Brett. This doesn't fly for anyone not already on board. It's bullshit hostage taking:
'The thing to blame for my side's bad behavior is how government isn't the size we want it. So give us the size government we want, or we will continue to fuck with election rules.'
No. You are responsible for your own bad behavior. Do better, don't blame the size of government as some swirling force forcing you to be nihilistic victor or wreck the Republic assholes.
The possibility of an angel is a poor defense of the concentration of power.
The known existence of a devil proves the need to dilute power.
You are making the possible angel argument. Brett is making the known devil argument.
One is based on hope, the other on reality.
If there are so many angels that concentrated power isn't to be worried about, then we don't need that power concentrated in the first place as angels don't need to be ruled.
That there are devils put there, the greatest form of protection to the greatest number of people is to not allow any devil to have access to more power. But since they cheat (they are devils) we can not hope to beat them at the game of "who gets the power." Thus, our only option is to destroy the power so that there is nothing for them to gain from cheating.
You can argue for smaller government; that's fine! I think there are some areas that's even correct.
But you can't make a mess and then say you did it because government isn't small enough. That's not an argument, it's a tantrum.
When *you're* the known devil, it becomes a different argument.
1) A vast expansion in the power of the federal government, both reach and extent.
Conservatives, and especially libertarians, want all levels of government to be more limited than that are. Arguing that the federal government being too powerful in "reach and extent" is the main problem avoids recognizing what the right really wants. In any case, debates over the proper role of government in recognizing and dealing with various problems is itself a question for voters to decide.
2) A growing belief, at least among Democrats, that even the narrowest majority, (50% plus a die [tie] breaker, for instance.) entitles you to make massive and irreversible changes.
Well, to be fair, Republicans seem to think that you don't even need a majority for that. Gerrymandering, the Electoral College, and/or equal representation for each state in the Senate seem to have allowed many "massive and irreversible changes" with less than majority support, such as we've seen recently with SCOTUS decisions.
Secondly, simple majority support was always supposed to be sufficient for basic lawmaking and policy decisions. The Constitution requires supermajorities for only very few things, such as ratifying treaties, removing elected and Senate-confirmed executive officials and judges, and changing the Constitution itself. There is almost nothing that is truly "irreversible" either. Any law that can passed with a simple majority can be undone with a simple majority later. Even Constitutional Amendments can be undone, and one has been.
"making it more difficult for anyone to vote for the other party."
They're basically doing none of that. They go to fairly obnoxious lengths to keep third parties off the ballot, or at least make sure they're exhausted by the time the real election contest starts, sure.
But, outside of California's goofy top two primary system, nobody is keeping you from voting for a major party candidate.
Nor are they keeping anyone from voting for a third party candidate. But the system is designed in a way that makes it very, very difficult for a third party to gain traction and have a chance at electing a significant number of legislators.
I read the Model Draft Language and didn't find anything obviously wrong as far as my limited experience goes. It certainly reads far, far better than the Act we now have, which frankly I don't think anyone actually understands; I know I don't.
The model draft seems to keep pretty well inside the guardrails of the Constitution, again, near as I can tell. True, the Constitution is short and uses some pretty sweeping language, but it does an excellent job at setting down the requirements if not implementation specifications.
63 comments and the one thing that comes through loud and clear is the massive amount of damage the electoral college has done and will continue to do. Rather than try to reform an obviously toxic institution maybe we could get rid of it. Even if I agreed with the arguments for it, is it really worth all this trouble?
Yes = is it [electoral college] really worth all this trouble?
That is the root problem but unfortunately it is not fixable.
It's not fixable because you can't change unless 2/3 congress and 3/4 of the states agree. Your idea is not popular enough
Note that other amendments that were super popular have passed. A whole bunch of them.
The problems discussed in the article would seem to exist notwithstanding the Electoral College or another voting system--a need for reformed procedures surrounding before, during, and/or after the election.
Since you ask (though I don't find it likely I'll sway you), I would rather replace winner-take-all distribution with proportional distribution by population/non-gerrymandered districts. The only reason I see anyone supporting winner-take-all is if some states can keep WTA and give dominant political parties outsized influence. That smaller states have EVs that "count" more than larger states by population seems intentional, unless we are willing to increase the House's eligible spots proportional to population growth.
Since you ask (though I don't find it likely I'll sway you), I would rather replace winner-take-all distribution with proportional distribution by population/non-gerrymandered districts.
I agree. WTA simply does not make any kind of sense if we stick with the EC, and the two states that split their votes (Nebraska and Maine) use House districts + 2 for the statewide winner, which just further encourages gerrymandering. I would support proportional distribution of EVs by population as an alternative to the National Electoral Vote pact many states have passed. (Triggering their EVs to go to the national winner if there are 270 Electoral Votes worth of states with the same provision. I think the total is currently something around 190 EVs in states with that in place.)
Proportional distribution of EVs would have the advantage of making 'battleground' states much less of a thing, while still preserving smaller population states having extra weight. (Not that I agree with that, but it would be necessary to get them to agree to it.)
While getting rid of the EC altogether remains my first choice, I would view abolishing winner take all as an improvement over what we currently have.
And no more electors. The math should be automatic.
I like this idea. Doesn't solve election integrity issues, but it does solve the "how do we even DO an Elector vote? Who counts? Who certifies?"
No more.... roll the dice, read the pips, collect your winnings/pay your loss. Done.
Lol. My side lost and that’s enormous damage.
There’s a mechanism for changing it. Quit your bitching and get off your ass and get it done. Start the movement. Otherwise you’re just flapping your lips.
The January 6 riot was a bit more than just my side lost.
The Jan 6 riot was a one off and wasn’t serious damage. And it wasn’t the cause of the riot.
If Trump runs in 2024 and loses again, he may end up winning if there are enough corrupt state officials to ignore the will of the voters in their respective states.
So far it's a one off. If Trump runs again, and loses again, in 2024, do you think his followers will be any more magnanimous in defeat than they were in 2020?
People killed = "wasn't serious damage."
Okay...
The only person killed was a protester, so you're wrong. As expected.
More than one person died that day. Four people did. One was shot, one was originally thought to be trampled, but the medical examiner's report cited an accidental overdose of amphetamines, and two died from heart attacks that had a history of cardiovascular disease. One officer, Brian Sicknick, died from two strokes he suffered several hours after the riot. A 42 year-old man with no obvious stroke risk, it is reasonable to conclude that the events of that day (including having been sprayed with pepper spray or something similar) contributed to his death. "Chief Medical Examiner Francisco J. Diaz found that Sicknick suffered two strokes nearly eight hours after being sprayed with a chemical irritant during the riot. Diaz told the Post that Sicknick died of natural causes, but “all that transpired played a role in his condition.”" Four officers present that day committed suicide in the days or months afterwards.
And the damage done to the state of our republic with the ending of the peaceful transfer of power is incalculable regardless of number of deaths.
According to his family, Sicknick had already had one stroke.
He also died late at night on the 7th, not "mere hours later".
Finally, what transfer of power took place on the 6th? Who was sworn in to what office? Why didn't any newspapers report it, if it happened then?
The Electoral College was not the cause of the riot.
It's what the law calls a "but for" -- But for the electoral college there would have been no riot.
Fine. Trump never complained about the EC. He complained about the election itself. It’s more accurate to say that but for the election there wouldn’t have been a riot. Wanna cancel those?
The EC makes election fraud easier. If you were trying to steal an election, which is easier: Stealing 70,000 votes across three close states, or stealing 3 million votes nationwide? And Trump's claims, while implausible, would have been even more implausible without the EC. At that point, his pitch is not that he was robbed of a handful of votes in Georgia and Pennsylvania; at that point he's going to have to convince people he was robbed of millions of votes nationwide.
As I've said before, if you think the EC is worth it because it makes it harder for Democrats to win, fine, make that argument. But please also acknowledge the harm that it does. The January 6 riot would not have happened had there been a national popular vote.
The EC does what it is designed to do - encourage compromise and keep larger states from dictating policy. That’s a good thing, without which there would have been a USA. It’s neutral as to the party it benefits. Right now it benefits the Rs but populations and political opinions shift all around. Some day it’ll be different.
You’re just whining because right now it keeps your party with it’s crazy progressives from ruling with an iron fist. Tough shit. The vast majority of us out here don’t want progressive government any more than we want MAGA government. If the EC protects us from the extremes it’s doing God’s work.
And you’re bending logic into a pretzel. Absent the EC the official blessing of the election results would still have generated a huge protest that would have turned into a riot. The EC was an innocent bystander. The only damage it’s doing is to your aspiration to control your neighbors.
Dude, at this point, Congress can't even pass a budget. We are well past checks and balances and into outright paralysis. That works until it doesn't. At some point there will be a crisis that no one can do anything about because checks and balances.
Not that I favor abolishing checks and balances; up to a certain point they're useful and necessary. But when Congress can't even pass a budget, we're past that.
That’s a flaw of congress. And the zealots like you and the MAGA folks that put them there. Quit blaming something that ain’t broke and work toward fixing something that is.
It's a flaw that's possible because of the way Congress is constitutionally structured. Sure, if one side or the other manages to run the table in an election -- the White House, 60 votes in the Senate and a majority in the House -- then paralysis goes away. But how often does that happen?
bevis, did you notice that your argument just discounted to zero the will of an actual majority? You say minority rule is God's work. I suppose you mean to imply that majority rule is the Devil's work? On what rational basis do you conclude that government which frustrates a majority is superior to government which frustrates a minority? Where does that come from?
On what rational basis do you conclude that government which frustrates a majority is superior to government which frustrates a minority? Where does that come from?
It pretty obviously comes from the fact that the minority is his side.
I am deeply dubious that there is any serious constituency of people delusional enough to believe the lies that Trump actually offered, but sufficiently in touch with reality that they would have rejected a slightly more aggressive version. Indeed, I've found that most people who are willing to say that they believe Trump won (including Trump himself) will say that they think he did win the popular vote as well.
True. It's important to remember that Trump complained about the massive voter fraud of another election: 2016. You know, the one he won.
And I have to say this: One of the arguments for the electoral college is that it was supposed to protect us from dangerous, lying demagogues. After Trump, that argument is a laugh riot.
1/6 was considerably less bad than 5/29/20. Measures less bad than that.
You think a small riot is better than a mad mob trying to burn down the White House, setting fire to some of the outbuildings, and injuring dozens of Secret Service people with their attacks?
What are you, a MAGA-Trumpist-insurrectionist or something?
/s
It's not worth any trouble at all. In fact, it would be worth going to some trouble to eliminate it.
The EC is fundamentally a disaster.
"is it really worth all this trouble?"
1) Yes
2) Given how much Dems do not like even attempting to pass constitutional amendments for anything, there is a less than zero chance of them trying to do it here.
Because it would require a Constitutional Amendment. That has precisely zero chance of ever passing.
Because it would require a Constitutional Amendment. That has precisely zero chance of ever passing.
If it really has zero chance of passing, it is because the EC advantages enough politicians in enough states that they would never support changing it. Disingenuous arguments that it is somehow good for the country are exactly that - disingenuous. The politicians and their supporters that benefit from it like that they benefit. It is only about power.
The only "problem" revealed in the 2020 election was one side refusing to accept the results. Let's not fool ourselves that the blame lies with the law. Changing a law makes no difference to those determined to break it.
The only "problem" revealed in the 2020 election was one side refusing to accept the results.
Absolutely. We have a problem where there are large numbers of Americans that view the political opposition as so dangerous that they simply cannot be allowed to wield power. Thus, any result where they win cannot be valid. This is a fundamental violation of the very idea of democratic self-government. I recall someone once saying that democracy is essentially an agreement not to kill each other over differences of opinion about government. That is what is at stake here.
I live in a congressional district where the likely GOP nominee is running on a platform of refusing to certify any results in which the Democrat wins. At this point the Trump wing of the party isn't even pretending to care about fair elections. And this problem is going to get worse before it gets better.
what about 200, 2004 and 2016?
This is not the "only" problem. Part of the problem was the other side doing everything they could to de-legitimize the integrity of the vote and those who called them out on it.
Doesn't mean stolen or fraud. It means that one side felt cheated and the other side's response was "Sucks to be you." A decent population would have accepted the fears of nearly 50% of the country and done what they could to address what was real, admit to what happened, and attempt to bring the losing side along.
That NEVER happened. Instead it was always "You are just full of shit you ignoramus!" from day one. The winning side did nothing to legitimize their power. It was nothing more than "We won, shut up."
And I think Biden won. But the way it was handled makes me question that more and more. I have moved TOWARDS cynicism about the election not away from it. In large part to the things that are actually true being discounted and poo-poo'd (like the PA judge admitting in his ruling that the law said one thing, something else was done, but in the name of some ethereal 'goodness' he decided to let votes count contra the law, or states accepted ballots without signatures despite the law, etc).
These things may not be "malicious fraud" but they also are not in accordance with the rules. Throwing side still deserves respect and decency as they are your fellow citizens, not your peasants to rule over. Yet the latter is how the Dem side has acted. Then got all hot and bothered when the people they spat on fought back.
What did you think was going to happen?
And yes... some things HAVE been disproven. But some things are not every thing. If it looks like you cheated twice in a game but you disprove one instance it doesn't mean you didn't still cheat.
Yes, this was a problem.
Trump personally spent months and months complaining about fraud ahead of the election, and being entirely partisan about it. He loved vote-by-mail in Florida. But in PA it was just a fraud mill. Extra voting hours and drop boxes in red districts? Perfection! In blue districts? Devil incarnate.
He spent literal months delegitimizing the vote. But sure, it's Democrat's fault that they couldn't convince Republicans that Trump was lying his ass off.
Trump's lies are not the fault of any Democrat.
What about enforcing the Constitution where it says State Legislatures alone have the power to dictate how their elections are run and throwing out any elections that were manipulated by entities that were not State Legislatures?
That would be kinda cool, to you know, follow the Constitution and to stop finding all these Donald Trump exceptions to our laws.
And that would be the solution. The US constitution delegates election laws to the state legislatures not the state courts.
If you don't follow the process the result should be thrown out.
By all means. The state legislatures that draw their own districts to make them less accountable to the voters should be able make election laws that make them even less accountable to the voters. And state and federal courts should have no say about whether any of that is a violation of the state or federal constitutions.
I'm trying to remember which side of the political spectrum in the U.S. says that they don't want to be ruled by elites.
You're putting up guardrails for a freight train. Acts of a past Congress can't bind the current Congress when it's performing a Constitutional function; at worst, attempting to make a watertight statute will simply embolden the amoral and give the good a false sense of assurance. If the process is going to go off the rails, no Constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it. Becoming a mature polity requires developing institutions and political sensibilities that won't go off the rails when there's private advantage to be had.
If I were to tweak things, I'd suggest that the Supreme Court be invited to observe the proceedings as silent observers. Might give invaluable insights if these matters ever arise across the street.
Mr. D.
While this seems a good idea, but it is also worth reflecting on the root cause of the problems to which this proposal is a reaction (and many other problems as well): Basically, people just make shit up. This has of course been put more eloquently:
“A habit of basing convictions upon evidence, and of giving to them only that degree of certainty which the evidence warrants, would, if it became general, cure most of the ills from which the world is suffering.”
—Bertrand Russel, Why I am Not a Christian, 1957.
Russel's observation is an implicit challenge to leaders, educators, parents and youth of this and future generations. It is actually somewhat encouraging to observe that the global, long-term trend is in the direction advocated by Russel, though the overall pace is frustratingly slow, and there is much backsliding and unevenness in the process.
It seems a useful exercise for any thinking person to ask themselves whether they agree with Russel's assertion, and if so, to what extent they live up to his ideal. and how they might help themselves and others to do better in that regard.
Hmm. To the extent that it purports to impose rules on congressional procedure, it's likely unconstitutional entirely. "Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings". If the President of the Senate is counting votes, it seems to me that Senate rules apply, and no law can change those rules short of a constitutional amendment.
He may be the president of the senate, but he's not presiding over the senate. So why would senate rules apply?
If you really believe there is a problem, that a rogue Congress can overturn an election, then the proposed solution really does nothing.
The central reform is limiting the reasons for which a congressman can object to an electoral count from a state. Let's say a new statute enumerates reasons 1, 2, and 3. A member of Congress objects to the count from State A for enumerated Reason 3. But there is no possible, plausible, logical relation between the count and the objection. But why would the hypothetical Rogue Congress care? What stops Congress from saying, "Nope, the electoral votes for Candidate A are all irregular and don't count. Candidate B's votes are fine, so he wins. [in a contingent election if need be]"
Why has Congress never done this? Why did Congress overrule the objections in 2001, 2005, 2017, and 2021? Because the people wouldn't stand for it. It seems the people who profess the most concern for the fate of democracy in America, don't really believe in democracy in America, and have little faith in it.
I must amend my post. I asked why Congress had never simply declared the winning presidential candidate's electoral votes invalid and overturned an election.
But it sorta did. Once. In the infamous presidential election of 1876. Which is what led to the Electoral Count Act of 1887 in the first place.
They can't do it because invalidating one candidates Electoral votes doesn't give the other candidate the 270 majority of all the electoral votes needed to win. Of course the decision would then devolve to the house, and the house votes by state delegations with Wyoming getting the same vote as California.
In 1824 the House had 201 members, but the tally in their presidential vote was 13 Adams - 7 Jackson- 4 Crawford because there were 24 state delegations each receiving one vote.
But probably the biggest reason is the voters would throw them out of office if they did, the presidency is important, but their own political skin is paramount.
I'm not convinced the voters would throw them out of office if they did. Our politics has become so tribal at this point that I think the voters would care more about their guy winning than they would about the process. You really think the reason Liz Cheney is in trouble in Wyoming is that she supports fair elections?
Amazing how folks don't get the part where small states don't want to be ruled by large states.
Nobody wants to be ruled by anybody; in the depths of our souls we're all tantrum-throwing toddlers screaming "You can't make me." But that's not the point. Unless you're a total anarchist, somebody has to pass laws that somebody else isn't going to like.
So here's the real question: When it comes to setting policy, is there any actual evidence that the residents of small states are wrong any less often than the residents of large states? I sure haven't seen any. West Virginia is a complete basket case, the meth capital of the world, with no real economy at this point, and yet it's the state whose voters have selected the senator who is pretty much unilaterally setting legislative agendas at this point.
Wow, so the original constitution which established the "weighted" Electoral College is a toddler tantrum.
So the real question is what states get it right? Ha
Or are you the toddler that can't follow the rules of the constitution to change it or call a constitutional convention to create a new one?
I mean the fuss about J6 was about not following the rules. But I guess it's only applies to your opposition?
Your rant responds to none of my points. That said, the original Constitution is essentially the equivalent of a Super Bowl in which one team starts off with a free touchdown and the rule can only be changed with the consent of the team that gets the free touchdown. If you're a partisan of that team, you like the rule, but nobody is going to seriously think it's a fair rule.
And that's what you're asking here. The original Constitution gives the rural areas power that is completely disproportionate to their numbers, and that rule can only be changed with their permission. You're a partisan so you like the outcome. Don't ask the rest of us to pretend it's a fair system.
"in the depths of our souls we're all tantrum-throwing toddlers screaming "You can't make me."
No we're not.
"So here's the real question: When it comes to setting policy, is there any actual evidence that the residents of small states are wrong any less often than the residents of large states?'
Has zero relevance. I'm sure many folks disagree with wht you think is "right"
So you make no relevant points
The Constitution adopts the strong medicine of depriving the majority of self governance. That should only happen if there is actual evidence that not having majority self governance gets better results more often than not. So not only is "who is right more often" a relevant point, it is arguably the single most important point. If you're going to deprive people of democracy, you need to show that you get better results without democracy than with it.
Because even if, arguably, democracy means the big states rule the little states, if that is still the better result in terms of policy, then we've gotten the better result in terms of policy.
"The Constitution adopts the strong medicine of depriving the majority of self governance."
Democracy is never "self-governance", at best it's only "each other governance". Because it's not people deciding what they will themselves do, (You don't need government for that!) but instead people deciding what other people will be forced to do, it's perfectly reasonable to deprive the majority of each other governance unless they can clear some substantial hurdles.
In this case, the Senate does NOT allow the little states to rule the big states; In order for legislation to pass, it has to go through the population weighted House, and the per state weighted Senate. Yes, if legislation is systematically disfavored by smaller states, it will fail.
Maybe we should wonder why a particular piece of legislation would have all the small states opposed?
Oh, the answer to your last paragraph is easy: Because there will always be contrarians who are opposed to progress.
I've represented many a condo association, and no matter how necessary or beneficial a certain proposal may be, there will always be a small, vocal minority that thinks it's the apocalypse. In the Senate, it's the same dynamic multiplied by orders of magnitude. The difference is that most condo documents don't allow a small number of disgruntled luddites to actually stand in the way of progress.
And just to be clear, nine times out of ten the minority is opposed to whatever the majority wants just because the majority wants it. It's that old "you can't tell me what to do" at work. Suppose there were some great piece of legislation that the Democrats were pushing that would somehow extend everyone's life expectancy by ten years, Mitch McConnell would block it so the Democrats couldn't take credit for it.
" It's that old "you can't tell me what to do" at work."
But unless you're a 12 year old kid speaking to your parents, "You can't tell me what to do!" is actually an excellent argument, which actually has to be refuted, not just dismissed. Because, barring good reasons, I really AM entitled to do what I want, not what YOU want me doing.
"Suppose there were some great piece of legislation that the Democrats were pushing that would somehow extend everyone's life expectancy by ten years, Mitch McConnell would block it so the Democrats couldn't take credit for it."
You're arguing from cloud coo coo land now. Did you somehow not notice that bastard handing Democrats a victory on gun control, oh, less than a month ago? He not only let them take credit for something, he helped them take credit for something that pissed off a major Republican interest group.
On the heels of Uvalde, McConnell had little choice, and there's event the possibility that he himself may not be a Second Amendment fanatic. And unless you believe in total anarchy, government has to be able to tell people what to do at least some of the time. (You certainly have no issue with telling pregnant women what to do.)
Except the teams without the "free touchdown" had to agree to the rule before the touchdown was ever granted in the first place to codify the rule giving the touchdown...
And they did.
Yeah, 250 or so years ago.
Plus we did not have two parties with a monopoly on power in 1789. The framers simply did not see our modern two-party state, and God only knows what they would have put in the Constitution if they had. They didn't foresee Donald Trump or January 6. They didn't foresee 35% of the population electing 70% of the Senate (which we're not at yet but are projected to be in 20 years). They did not foresee a lot of things that might very well have caused them to do something else. Why should we be bound by people who had no clue what conditions would be like in 2022?
In 1790, there were basically two parties (Federalists and Anti-Federalists) with a bit of ebb and flow. And throughout US history, there have generally been 2 major parties, with the occasional sudden rise of a third party. The first third-part wasn't until 1832, when Wirt ran for the Anti-Mason Party, and got 7 electoral votes.
There were only three third parties in US national politics in the entire first century - The Anti-Masons, the Free Soils, and the Know-Nothings.
Pretending the Founders didn't know of the potential rise of parties, or the problems they represented, is just ignorant. Equally ignorant is pretending they did not fall into parties immediately anyway.
Additionally, do you have any idea how uneven the population of the US was in 1789? Virginia had more than ten times the population of Delaware. The top 4 states held 50% of the US population. And that was including slaves - exclude them, and there were single cities with populations matching the smaller states.
In 1790 they knew damned well the unbalance represented by the Senate, and they liked it.
Partisan voters are tribal, but there are enough districts, and most state elections where you can't win without attracting independent voters, and I think independents would heavily punish a party that disregarded the will of the voters to install their own candidate.
"You really think the reason Liz Cheney is in trouble in Wyoming is that she supports fair elections?"
If you do not represent your constituents, you end up in trouble electorally. C'est la vie. Time to end political dynasties.
I noted the contingent election. If Candidate A apparently defeats Candidate B by an electoral count of 300-238 (or 537-1 for that matter), but Congress declares all of A's votes invalid. then it has effectively given the election to B, because, no candidate having a majority, a contingent election would be had in the House. But B, as the only candidate with any "valid" electoral votes, would literally be the only available option in that contingent election.
But being the only candidate does not assure victory. You still have to win a clear majority (ie 26) State delegations.
In this fanciful hypothetical, we are pre-supposing a Congress determined to install the losing candidate. That being said, of course, they could select no one, in which case the Vice-President Elect would assume office. But, in this increasingly ludicrous scenario, has the Senate not chosen the Vice President from their field of one candidate? Then the Speaker would serve as Acting President until the House or Senate actually choose someone.
The bottom line is a unified, determined Congress could overturn an election if it really wanted to. But this is not going to happen. You have to have a little faith in the people and in democracy. This is all residual anti-Trump hysteria. What if Trump refuses to leave the White House?! What if Trump cancels the elections?! What if Trump pardons himself?! Etc., etc.
I'm going to try to be bipartisan and commend the Democrats for doing their best to move the country past close contentious elections and allow a consensus to develop that Democrats shouldn't be allowed to be in control of Washington again for a decade or two.
"As Craig's paper lays out, ECA reform needs to address three interrelated problems:
1. Preventing state governments from, in effect, changing the rules after election day, in order to reverse election results they don't like."
Nothing about states violating their own election laws to achieve a desired political outcome? How many Dem governora unilaterally (and illegally) expanded mail-in voting in their states in 2020? Were it not for this, Biden would not be occupying the White House. But yeah, all the problems are with the GOP, clearly.
Somin is his usual Dem hack self here. He wants to enact statutes that make voter fraud easier, because that is how his party won the 2020 election. And, since his solution doesn’t address the very real concerns of the other side, it looks more like a partisan power grab than anything really serious.
I find myself skeptical.
It seems to me you have to trust somebody. All branches of government can potentially be affected by cabal and corruption. So the Framers decided to divide power.
The Supreme Court has the final say on most matters. But the Framers gave the job of counting the votes of the Presidential electors to Congress.
And it wasn’t just the 12th Amendment either. Both the 14th and 15th Amendments gave significant responsibility to Congress.
For example, Section 2 of the 14th Amendment says that if states disenfranchise black make voters in Presidential elections, their number of representatives get reduced. I think the Enforcement Clause gave Congress not merely the power, but arguably the duty, to throw out the excess electors (as well as refuse to seat representatives) in states which engaged in systematic black disenfranchisement in the century following the 14th Amendment’s passage.
In light of this, a reform to the Electoral Count Act which makes states the authoratative certifiers would appear to go against the plain text of the 14th Amendment.
Simply put, while there may be no reason to think Congress inherently more trustworthy than the states, there’s no reason to think the states inherently more trustworthy than Congress. But somebody has to make the decisions, and that means you have to trust somebody. Because the Constitution both gives Congress the express power to enforce the 14th Amendment by throwing out representatives and their corresponding electors in states that disenfranchise black citizens, and gives it the wxpress power and duty to count the votes, I would infer that Congress’ power here can’t be considered purely ministerial.
In addition, given the history of systematic disenfranchisement conducted by states, I would be reluctant to curtail Congress’ ultimate enforcement power.
I realize that this country is now in a veritable frying pan and the book-keeping underlying its republican form of government is in grave danger of being cooked beyond recognition. I understand Congress seems to be the branch of government in grave danger of over-heating.
But I would be reluctant to jump out of the frying pan into the fire. It’s neither as safe, nor as cool, as it appears.
And in general, there is no way to fully safeguard a republican form of government against corruption, factionalism, and ignorance. As Benjamin Franklin said, we can only have a republican form of government if we can keep it. And as Lincoln noted, we are still in the experiment to ascertain whether such a form of government can long endure. Indeed, we are far from out of the crucible yet.
No. The 14th amendment gives Congress to enforce it by appropriate legislation. Not by Congress taking action at the time of the vote counting.
Also, the Constitution assigns the power to determine the manner of appointing the state’s electors to state legislatures. Nothing but in the Constitution in any way prevents state legislatures from picking the state’s electors after hearing the recommendation of an advisory popular election, much as (on many matters) states can choose to have judges decide things after hearing the recommendations of an advisory jury.
Why should it be the business of Congress to prevent states from doing this if they want to?
Sure there are policy arguments against it, but there’s no constiutional fundamental rights or fundamental fairness based arguments. After all, state legislatures can simply appoint the electors themselves without bothering to solicit any popular input at all. What difference should it make to Congress if in some state or other popular input is merely advisory rather than a binding result?
I recognize Article 2 gives Congress the power to determine the time of choosing the electors. One might think that this power gives it the power to provide that if a state wishes to have an advisory popular election, it needs to occur before the date of choosing selected by Congress, with the actual decision made on that date.
But I would think the Supreme Court’s decision in Chiafolo v. Washington significantly undermines this theory. It seems to suggest that states have much more freedom to replace electors than might be inferred from the text of the Constitution alone. Chiafalo suggests that legislatures have the power to decide, after the fact, that the appointed electors aren’t performing as they desire and to simply replace them and appoint a nww slate. Since it’s the legislature’s will that’s the ultimate touchstone under the Constitution, Chiafalo would appear to open a back door to a purely advisory popular election whereby the voters choose tentative electors, and then when the electoral college meets (or between the two dates) the legislature or state government officials get to decide whether these tentatively appointed electors are really what was wanted, and if not, simply replace them without ceremony.
They can do that — not that the public would stand for it, which is why every state went to popular election of electors before the Civil War — but there is a difference between (1) holding a non-binding referendum and then the state legislature doing what it wants; and (2) holding an election and then the state legislature throwing out the votes.
"2. Preventing Congress from throwing out electoral votes for bogus reasons (as some GOP members of Congress sought to do after the 2020 election)."
And as Democrats had done in 2004 and 2016. Let's not pretend this is a GOP or Trump driven phenomenon. Just like those times, they all came to naught.
This proposal is not reform. It ensures that massive voter fraud, as did happen in 2020 (proven beyond all doubt by "2000 Mules"), will always stand, unchallengeable. That would necessitate real coups.
I urge true reform instead. Move the Jan 6 congressional count, and all inaugurations, back to March, so that state judicial processes including full forensic audits will have time to take place while they can still affect the result.
And ban mail-in ballots and drop boxes, which are only wanted by those who intend to cheat.
"And ban mail-in ballots and drop boxes, ...."
Agreed, but given that each state sets the rules for voting this will be easier said than done.
Check out some of the critiques of that movie, maybe.
Giving more lame duck time seems a bad idea, actually.
'judicial processes including full forensic audits' wouldn't convince people like you of anything.
"Check out some of the critiques of that movie, maybe."
To what end? Are you suggesting that there in validity to the claims made in the movie?
"Giving more lame duck time seems a bad idea, actually."
Why? Presidents were previously sworn in in March.
"'judicial processes including full forensic audits' wouldn't convince people like you of anything."
The reciprocal seems just as true , since an audit that showed irregularities probably wouldn't convince people like you.
He's suggesting that no rational person who knew the facts would believe the movie.
And everyone agreed this was a bad idea, which is why it was moved to January.
How wonderful for you that you are qualified to determine who is rational and what "everyone" agrees on.
Not bothering to make good arguments, but rather relying on misreadings and question begging, is a good sign you don't care to put in the effort do join rational society.
Maybe you can do better, but until then you're just another lazy partisan.
I mean, we passed a constitutional amendment and everything. You know how hard it is — how much of a supermajority is required — in order to pass a constitutional amendment?
As a libertarian, I'm concerned that Somin claims to represent me in this effort. He seems far more concerned about blocking a potential return of Trump than a focus on a legitimate process.
While the process is a bit ragged, the foundation is and was strong.
Even if everyone in the Trump administration would have done exactly as Trump requested, (and random citizens lined up as "alternate electors"), there was no actual path for Trump to remain as president.
Unless he would have had the support of congress and the supreme court.
When all three pillars line up, they can then do as they damn well please.
I'm not sure you're right that Trump couldn't have moved enough to just not leave the white house.
Certainly there would be a lot of chaos.
And a lot of American citizen feeling even more justified in some violence to save the Republic from the evil non-Trumpians.
I'm not sure you're right that Trump couldn't have moved enough to just not leave the white house.
Moved enough what? Electoral votes?
Congress is in charge of counting votes.
The supreme court oversees the process.
If congress would have been convinced that the election was fraudulent, they could have voted Trump the winner, and the Supreme court would likely have gone along.
But that requires congress to agree with Trump.
For all the raggedness, that's what we have today, and tweaking the wording isn't going to fix anything important.
De Jour:
1. Each state gets one electoral vote per congressional rep
2. Each state selects individual people to come vote in the electoral college, in any way the state chooses
3. Being actual people voting, the electors might vote any way they see fit, yielding a potentially chaotic result.
4. Congress counts the votes, names the winner.
De Facto
1. Each state gets one electoral vote per congressional rep
2. Congress looks over the results of the electoral college vote, and accepts the results or not.
3. If congress doesn't accept the results, they do something novel.
4. In the end, the supreme court passes judgement over anything novel that congress might do.
The discussion of this thread focuses on a piece that doesn't really matter.
Once it got thrown to Congress to decide, I'm not sure that the SC would have any say.
Once it got thrown to Congress to decide, I'm not sure that the SC would have any say.
It always gets thrown to congress to decide. What the constitution says. Not interesting until congress counts the votes differently than the electoral college counted them.
But once it gets interesting, the SC surely has a role.
The important hypothetical discussion regards what either is, or at least is widely believed, to have been one of:
1. a fraudulent election thrown out by a legitimate congress
2. a rogue congress throws out a legitimate election
Just what the SC's role would be is a bit speculative.
Your scenarios 1 and 2 are very clear descriptors of what the two sides think.
The problem seems to be that from the outside 1 and 2 look identical and there is no way to tell the difference. If the vote is successfully cheated, you wouldn't know (else it wouldn't be successful). If the vote isn't cheated, how would you know since a successfully cheated one looks the same?
Add to that the certain imperfections in an election (such as some level of cheating, attempted cheating, and mathematical irregularities given the size of the electorate)... truth is hard to discern.
Add to that that each side does little to assuage the concerns of the other thereby further eroding legitimacy in the outcome and you have a pretty terrible circumstance.
The way to resolve this is to have sufficient controls and transparency on the voting process that you shrink the potential for successfully IOW, deniably...) cheating to the point where, if Congress declares the election a cheat, and throws it out, a large majority of the population will be confident which scenario we're looking at.
At this point I think anyone who defends election opacity has to be regarded as actively not wanting elections trusted. We're in a low trust situation were everything possible to restore trust becomes existentially necessary.
This is great and all, but it's treating a symptom, not the disease. Simply put, the problem in 2020 was not the law. It was the man. And he would have misbehaved no matter what the law said.
Trying to treat his temper tantrum by changing the law is to ignore the problem and rearrange the deck chairs.
Which is to say... at first blush, this doesn't look objectionable. But it's also pointless, because it fails to address the mischief it purports to address.
If you pretend it was just the man, you'll miss the real problem, which wasn't just the man.
Look, like it or not, there were serious problems with election administration in 2020, and they weren't accidental. They were the result of an attitude concerning election administration that needs to be stopped, that the election laws are just suggestions, that transparency is a pointless annoyance.
Sure, somebody else would have stopped at a reasonable stopping point, but once administrators don't think they have to follow the law, the situation doesn't improve on its own. So we do need to fix some things, and the ECA is just the beginning of it, or trust in elections is going to keep declining.
You can't fix problems you won't admit exist.
So we do need to fix some things, and the ECA is just the beginning of it, or trust in elections is going to keep declining.
But the ECA isn't much about or either national or state election laws, which indeed need tightening up.
It's more about the ragged nature of the electoral college mechanism. The raggedness could be cleared up, sure, but the real threats of local elections wouldn't be much addressed.
Ragged as the electoral college mechanism is, and nutty as Trump's plan to exploit the raggedness might have been, the underlying structure was and remains pretty solid.
Changing the ECA will do nothing to correct the problems that surfaced in the 2020 election.
The 2020 election truthers are the ones who don't want to fix the ECA, Brett.
Think about why that might be.
The 2020 election truthers are the ones who don't want to fix the ECA, Brett.
Think about why that might be.
Because it's driven by TDS rather than any real problem.
Because it's a diversion from the real threat, which is corrupted state elections.
Because it's driven by TDS rather than any real problem.
Because it's a diversion from the real threat, which is corrupted state elections.
Exactly!
"This is great and all, but it's treating a symptom, not the disease. Simply put, the problem in 2020 was not the law. It was the man."
I love that the Left still does not quite get that Trump was not the disease. Trump was the symptom of a disease that has been there for a long, long while.
Which is to say... at first blush, this doesn't look objectionable. But it's also pointless, because it fails to address the mischief it purports to address.
The American political mechanism was and and remains quite resilient with respect to an intemperate threat by an angry man.
We came very close to a failure in 2020, and could fail in 2024 if corrupt state officials step in.
We came very close to a failure in 2020, and could fail in 2024 if corrupt state officials step in.
Close to a failure to do what?
There were more votes in congress to nationalize American oil companies than there were to replace the electoral college count.
We came close to not having Biden as president. If Pence does what Trump wanted him to do, there is no electoral college majority for either candidate and the House will pick Trump because each state gets a single vote. Ditto if enough officials in three states are corrupt. That's way too close for comfort.
We came close to not having Biden as president. If Pence does what Trump wanted him to do, there is no electoral college majority for either candidate and the House will pick Trump because each state gets a single vote.
If Pence did what Trump wanted him to, it would have immediately gone to the Supreme Court, before any vote ever happened. The Supreme Court was not going along with any shenanigans.
And in the odd chance that the SC let it go to a vote, one vote per state, there is no way that 51 states would have voted to put Trump back in office. Not even close.
If it were that easy, the D's would have made this play long ago. All you need is 51 states and a cooperative VP? C'mon.
I guess that depends whether 26 is close to 51.
As David noted, it takes 26 states and the Republicans have the majority of the delegation in 26 states.
To be fair, one of those is Wyoming, and we can assume Liz Cheney wouldn't have voted for Trump, at least after the attack.
In that case, we have no winner. Hello acting president Harris.
"We came close to not having Biden as president."
Not seeing the negatives here. Worst President in a century, minimum.
Not seeing the negatives here.
I'm no fan of Biden, but we don't want to live in a country which is not ruled by the people and for the people.
If a candidate loses the election but ends up manipulated into the presidency, we've lost self rule.
That's the negative.
I don't think we came anywhere close, but that's the negative.
"I'm no fan of Biden, but we don't want to live in a country which is not ruled by the people and for the people."
That ship sailed long ago.
In 2020, there were still a number of elected Republicans that were not willing to steal an election for Trump.
The Republican party is currently in the process of drumming out anyone who refuse a second time.
That they may succeed by 2024? That is the problem. And that problem does not have a legislative solution.
Tell it to the marines.
In 2020, there were still a number of elected Republicans that were not willing to steal an election for Trump.
Of the 435 members of congress, how many do you think would have voted to replace the electoral college results with a Trump win?
Here's my answer: somewhere between 0 and 10.
Pretty much the same as any other presidential election. A far higher point was reached in 2016.
Ted Cruz (TX)
Josh Hawley (MO)
Cindy Hyde-Smith (MS)
Cynthia Lummis (WY)
John Kennedy (LA)
Roger Marshall (KS)
Rick Scott (FL)
Tommy Tuberville (AL)
8?
In any case, we never came close to having a vote to declare Trump the winner.
The votes we did have were to accept the Electoral College count. Even if the Electoral College count were to have been rejected, it would have been a very tall hill to get to where congress voted Trump the winner.
About 150.
About 150.
Given the available evidence?
That's very cynical, and not, as I see it, remotely connected to congress as it exists.
There were 150 with concerns about something. That doesn't mean that they would have voted to seat Trump for a second term.
One way to fix it all: just go back to state legislatures selecting the electors. No popular vote at all.
Advantages: (1) very hard to cheat in a recorded roll call vote, (2) no more lawsuits about polling hours, early voting, late voting, ballot harvesting, at least not for presidential elections, (3) counteracts our tendency toward presidential supremacy and hopefully leads to citizens paying attention to other parts of government, (4) strengthens federalism, (5) eliminates the need for primaries, ballot access, etc, (6) possibly lowers the political temperature a bit, (7) it's not only constitutional, it's original public intent.
Disadvantages:
The legislature does not reflect the will of the people of the state.
But who cares about that if the system can guarantee a Republican win?
All this hassling about EV's tells us one thing - the method of electing the President is facockt. The whole thing is a giant mess that needs to be replaced, sooner rather than later, by a popular vote system.
The Founders fucked up, big time, on this one.
A win by counties won nationally would be a more meaningful system, insuring that large cities would not overwhelm smaller states.
Why wouldn't we want large cities — meaning lots of people — to overwhelm smaller states — meaning few people?
A win by counties won nationally would be a more meaningful system, insuring that large cities would not overwhelm smaller states.
It would also motivate county splitting.
And popular vote provides benefits for the most lax possible election security.
All things have negatives.
The Founders fucked up, big time, on this one.
They made a deal with the small states to form a union.
The deal was codified by the constitution.
What would you offer the small states to motivate them to agree to give up the deal?
Andy Craig is a TDS-riddled hack and so are you, Ilya. Plus the ECA is an unconstitutional alteration of the 12th Amendment. But of course respect for the Constitution among supposedly-principled ”conservatives” (AKA neocons) like Ilya goes right out the window whenever Orange Man is involved.
Right, of course-- what could possibly go wrong?
It's both.
For instance in Arizona the discovered there was no penalty on the books if the Secretary of State disregarded election law and substituted their own procedure. The legislature took note and added criminal penalties for state and local election officials that disregard state law.
Queen, yes, usually, but the Constitution provides: Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress . . . .
"substituted their own procedure. "
The proper pronouns is "its"
Yes, "It's different when we do it." Because we're good, and they're bad. I get it.
You assign significance to distinctions and believe that gives them significance. It doesn't. It's just post hoc rationalization.
The chief distinction, if you really want to make one, is, the Democrats' having done it three times already in three consecutive elections they lost, is it was a precedent.
As a historical note, no member of Congress raised an objection under the provisions of the Electoral Count Act of 1887 until 1969, a span of 82 years and twenty presidential elections without an objection. (The objection in that case had to do with a faithless elector). Then Democrats raised them in 2001, 2005, and 2017. And then by Republicans in 2021.
Now, one might principally argue those were all permissible or that they were all impermissible, but to argue they were fundamentally "different" is just blind partisanship.
https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/01/04/in-past-20-years-democrats-objected-3-times-to-electoral-college-certifications/
Hi, Rhoid. Thanks for making my point, Honey. Those are all Never Trumpers, and Jan. 6 deniers. They want to gaslight us into believing a pro-democracy protest was an insurrection. They want us to believe 5 deaths took place, all of which were later and for other reasons, like suicide, CVA's, AMI's. The only murder that took place was the extra-judicial, summary execution of Ashli Babbitt by a thug Democrat diverse. His murder was covered up by the Democrat Party. He should be tried and get the death penalty for murder on federal property.
Rhoid. Mail harvesters are vicious Democrat attack dogs. They know down to the block how people vote. They throw the Republican ballots in the trash. They help impaired people fill out their ballots. They print ballots for delivery at 3 AM. They are dangerous cheaters and should all do prison time for attacking our democracy.
Where Democrats are the incumbents, of course they are. Where Republicans are the incumbents, it's the other way 'round. To think otherwise is ... intellectually challenged and ... sheltered.
Queenie. Great comment, bruh. Very intelligent. Well spoken. Your hair is so pretty. Can I touch it?
Now, one might principally argue those were all permissible or that they were all impermissible, but to argue they were fundamentally "different" is just blind partisanship.
If you mean to say that they were not different in whether the objections were valid and consistent with the original purpose of the Electoral Count Act, I would agree. I see the purpose of that Act to clearly be how deal with any situations like what happened in 1876, when different officials in multiple states were each declaring different people to be 'real' Electors. In none of the situations in 2001 through 2021 was there any doubt about what the certified results of each state's vote were and who the certified Electors were. Thus, there was no validity to any member of Congress objecting during the count.
In 2001, 2005, and 2017, there was not both a member of the House and Senate making objections, so the chambers didn't even have to do anything about it. The objections were quickly dismissed and the counting continued. There was never any possibility of their objections having any effect and few people even paid them any attention.
What is very different about 2021 is the sheer number of Congresspeople making objections and the effects those objections had. In total, 147 Republican congresspeople objected to at least one state's Electoral Votes being counted. Originally, over a dozen Senators had planned to object, but after the violent interruption, seven did. Those that planned to object had made it well known that they would, Trump spent weeks leading up to it telling his supporters that it would be the last chance to 'stop the steal', and of course, Mike Pence was supposed to unilaterally declare 'suspect' results invalid as well.
So, yes, there are some seriously large differences in how those events played out. To argue that there weren't is just blind partisanship.
Yes, they dilute their votes with fake ballots, lose their votes at counting tables or USPS processing tables, or otherwise disenfranchise them with illegal ballot harvesting or fraudulent absentee ballots.
Bombshells undercut the 'Big Lie:' 21 confirmed illegalities, irregularities from 2020 election
Just The News dot Com
Don't go all pronoun on me.
Just be happy I didn't use "they're".
Obviously they can't impose ex post facto legal liability, they could remove the secretary of state.
But in this case 'their' solution is perfectly appropriate for a legislature, they determined that the law wasn't being followed and amended the law so future violations of the law imposed criminal penalties on election officials. Classic legislative oversight and response.
I could have just pointed out that this: "legislators deciding if the law was applied correctly in a specific instance? That’s usually the job for courts." could apply just as easily to the Jan 6 committee hearings.
So why are legislators investigating Trump to determine if he violated the ECA?
Are you saying the select committee shouldn't "make the determination" that Trump's actions were "out of compliance" with the law.
You really need to think your positions through rather than just picking a side.
That's not true.
In 2005 Barbara Boxer In the Senate and Stephanie Tubbs in the House objected to Ohio's electoral votes.
Ah, okay. I was mistaken. More House Democrats voted against accepting Ohio's Electoral votes than I thought, as well. (31)
But from an article at the time,
The move was not designed to overturn Bush's re-election, said Ohio Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones and California Sen. Barbara Boxer, who filed the objection.
The objecting Democrats, all of whom are House members except Boxer, said they wanted to draw attention to the need for aggressive election reform in the wake of what they said were widespread voter problems.
And, again, as another difference between that objection and 2021,
Kerry released a letter Wednesday saying he would not take part in the protest.
"Our legal teams on the ground have found no evidence that would change the outcome of the election," Kerry said.
With the losing candidate not supporting the effort, it was never going to me more than a stunt, according to congressional Republicans.
Republicans dismissed the effort as a stunt, noting that specific allegations of voting problems in Ohio have been investigated by journalists and, the Republicans said, found to be untrue.
"But apparently, some Democrats only want to gripe about counts, recounts, and recounts of recounts," said Rep. Deborah Pryce, an Ohio Republican.
"So eager are they to abandon their job as public servants, they have cast themselves in the role of Michael Moore, concocting wild conspiracy theories to distract the American public."
How the tune changes when the shoe is on the other foot.
Democrats cheated to make Cali permanent. They are taking the act national. They must be stopped or it's welcome to Venezuela.
"The objecting Democrats, all of whom are House members except Boxer, said they wanted to draw attention to the need for aggressive election reform in the wake of what they said were widespread voter problems."
And, how is that different from Republicans pissed off about how the 2020 election had been conducted? And Republicans HAVE been engaged in aggressive election reform in multiple states. Tightening up election rules, imposing criminal penalties for elections administrators that don't follow them.
No difference in principle, anyway: Once you start challenging EC votes, and don't sanction the members who do it, you've lost the right to say that challenging EC votes is illegitimate.
So, again, as so often, "How dare you do to us what we did to you!"
And, how is that different from Republicans pissed off about how the 2020 election had been conducted?
I already said what makes it different.
What is very different about 2021 is the sheer number of Congresspeople making objections and the effects those objections had. In total, 147 Republican congresspeople objected to at least one state's Electoral Votes being counted. Originally, over a dozen Senators had planned to object, but after the violent interruption, seven did. Those that planned to object had made it well known that they would, Trump spent weeks leading up to it telling his supporters that it would be the last chance to 'stop the steal', and of course, Mike Pence was supposed to unilaterally declare 'suspect' results invalid as well.
So the difference is that rather than it being simply a 'protest', Trump portrayed it to his supporters as an actual attempt to prevent Biden from taking office, calling for his supporters to march to the Capitol to "fight like hell" for that to happen. At least one House member had tweeted about it being "1776" all over again, as well, so I think at least some of them hoped for their objections to be more than a protest.
If you can challenge EC votes, you can challenge EC votes. People in politics tend to assume, (or pretend they do) the good motives of people on their side, and the bad motives of people on the other side.
So forget motive, the only relevant question is whether or not you can do it.
So forget motive, the only relevant question is whether or not you can do it.
And have I been saying that Congress shouldn't be able to challenge the certified EC votes from the states absent a real controversy over who the legitimate electors are supposed to be that, for some reason, can't be adjudicated in the courts. Congress is not anything close to a neutral forum for deciding election disputes. Evidence doesn't mean shit to most of them, only what the result is going to be.
The reason why I think this is precisely because it was misused by people with obviously bad motives in 2021 and that it led to violence and an end to the tradition of peaceful transfer of power. The prior misuse by Democrats had no significant effect, so dismissing those events as grandstanding seemed reasonable at the time. But in hindsight, that they misused the process in the way that they did made the events of Jan 6 a real possibility.
Is that what you want me to say? That the Democrats were wrong to object for frivolous reasons in those years because it would make illegitimate attempts to actually cancel the vote of the people a possibility, just like what Republicans did? If so, then I have just said that.
Yes, that was in fact what I wanted you to say.
So Republican violence is the fault of some grumbling by Hillary Clinton?
No. It's not. It;s the fault of the perpetrators and those who encouraged and incited them.
Just like the widespread belief among Republicans that the election was stolen is not, Brett notwithstanding, the fault of Democrats. It's the fault of Donald Trump and those who repeat his lies, not to mention the gullible fools who believe them.
So Republican violence is the fault of some grumbling by Hillary Clinton?
Yeah, that is certainly not what I was trying to say, and if Brett thinks I did, he is wrong. I was only saying that, with the benefit of hindsight, the previous Democrat objections were, in fact, a bad idea. As in, it is a bad idea to object for any reason other than the original purpose of the Electoral Count Act - to resolve disputes over which Electors to count the votes of when multiple state officials claim different results to be the official ones. I see the purpose of that act to try and lay out procedures for states to follow that will make who the state's Electors were and what their votes were, clear and beyond dispute. Objections would be only to deal with actual failures to follow those procedures. Objecting for any other reason starts down a road of implying that members of Congress can judge for their own reasons whether to count the Electoral Votes from each state. Again, to emphasize the point, this is with the benefit of hindsight. Everyone should be forgiven for not recognizing that any member of Congress would ever have the nerve to actually subvert the will of the voters by objecting without a valid reason as laid out above.
Of course, anyone that did try to use that history as an excuse to toss the certified Electoral Votes of a state just because they don't like those results is still solely responsible for their attempt to overturn the votes of the people. Nothing that any Republicans did on Jan. 6, 2021 is the "fault" of any Democrat. I'm just saying that no one should be giving people looking to subvert democracy any wiggle room at all, if you can foresee them trying to use what you do as an excuse for their own subversive acts.
Just to be clear, for those who think Republicans are saints, QA is referring to illegal, unauthorized dropboxes.
As to your incident, BFD. Someone can vandalize mailboxes as well. In this instance all the voters were identified and allowed to votea again.
As usual, A.L., you are making stupid arguments.
Look, we're talking about federal elections. The "independent state legislature" theory doesn't apply to state elections.
So, if you think the state legislature violated the federal constitution, even under this theory, you can challenge it in court. In federal court. Because the state legislature is, under this theory, functioning as a part of the federal government when promulgating rules for federal elections, which means the state judiciary don't have jurisdiction to change them.
What if the state constitution says the governor, or.the state supreme court should appoint the Electors?
You'd have to concede in that case that the federal constitution controls, and the state provision is invalid.
Similarly any process that overrode the legislature's direction on selecting electors would also be invalid. I think a state court could strike a legislative provision that violated the state constitution, but what they can't do is craft their own remedy, they have to return the issue to the legislature to resolve it.
He was trying to thread the needle in a very technical way to follow the law (arguably, tons of arguably against) but accomplish his goal.
Tightening this up is the subject of this thread.
I don't know anybody who thinks Republicans are saints. I don't think there ARE saints in politics. It's a dirty business that attracts dirty people, which is why utterly relentless transparency and enforcement of rules is essential.
You've had people literally target ballot "drop boxes" for burning....
And in this one case, you manages to save the people who cast the ballot.
But in the future? What happens if you don't get so lucky to locate everyone who cast a ballot in the box.
These "drop boxes" represent a high risk for ballot destruction, as they centralize and concentrate a high number of ballots. Mailboxes don't have such a high concentration.
So, again, as so often, "How dare you do to us what we did to you!"
Again, as so often, what Republicans did is not the same as what Democrats did. You keep trying to make it seem the same by ignoring everything else surrounding those events other than the fact that both sides had some Congresspeople objecting. But it won't work with anyone with any objectivity at all.
It would be the same if the Republicans objecting were saying in advance of their objections that it wasn't about actually trying to overturn the results or significantly delay the certification and inauguration of Joe Biden. It would be the same if they were instead saying that they were just trying to bring attention to the 'problems' they believed occurred in the election, so that those problems might be corrected for the next one. It would be the same if Trump had already conceded that Joe Biden won and wasn't supporting the objections the GOP Congresspeople were making. It would be the same if the objections had gotten some brief mentions in news reports the next day and were then otherwise forgotten or ignored by all but a handful of die-hard Republican voters and activists.
Since none of that is what happened, then it isn't the same.
One thing for sure Democrats have zero self awareness in regards to hypocrisy.
Whether it's somehow saying J6 was much worst than the BLM riots or that this election was the fairest ever but not 2016,2004 and 2000. Those challenges were righteous!
No amount of hypocrisy sinks in.
Plenty of difference.
This is your usual, "One Democrat somewhere did this, so any Republican absurdity is fine. All the Democrats' fault."
In all the cases where Democrats challenged, the Democratic candidate had already conceded. None of the losing candidates, not Gore, not Kerry, not Clinton, supported or endorsed the challenges. They were idiosyncratic acts by a few individuals, not something "the Democrats" did. Indeed, in both 2001 and 2017 the objections had no support from any Democratic Senator.
Contrast with 2021, where Trump actively instigated the challenges and cheered them, including urging Pence, absurdly, to throw out some EV's; where he applauded and encouraged rioters and insurrectionists to try to intimidate Congress, and where 147 GOP lawmakers, including eight Senators and Kevin McCarthy, supported some objections. (And of course there were others who intended to support them but changed their mind after the riot.)
So this really was the Republican Party objecting, not just a handful of legislators who were heavily rejected by their fellow party members.
There si no comparison, your feeble argument notwithstanding.
You seem to persecute them in one direction and not the other. Have you mentioned the Republican victories in 2020 even once? You have not.
Which should tell you a bit about the outcome you're seeking with your asymmetric paeons for election integrity (Based on your own objectively derived rules for integrity, natch).
Headlines are not facts.
Ballots are tracked and if a large number were missing, they would show up in the numbers. Your argument is nonsensical.
It helps to preserve the failure of presidentialism. It seeks to save the election of presidents by making them more legitimate.
You exclusively argue in one direction.
You're wrong. But even if you were right, that has nothing to do with Brett making a biased argument.
Is this where sarcastro pretends he isnt a far leftist lol.
Can you name any Democrat who's made any of those statements?
No one is disputing that a legislature can and should think about whether the law can be changed to avoid similar problems happening again in the future. (This is at least nominally he purpose of the January 6 hearings.) But Eric VonSalzen is suggesting that legislatures should also adjudicate "any disputes" and decided who actually won a past election.
The stated purpose of the January 6 committee is to identify
https://january6th.house.gov/about . Now certainly the hearings also have a political purpose (as these things always do). But they're not "investigating Trump to determine if he violated the ECA".
The federal constitution gives control over election to two legislative bodies (state legislatures and Congress). Why does a federal court have any more authority to intervene than would a state court?
The federal constitution gives control over election to two legislative bodies (state legislatures and Congress). Why does a federal court have any more authority to intervene than would a state court?
How many other actions taken using powers that legislatures are given by the federal or state constitutions are courts not allowed to review for consistency with said constitutions?
I guess if they limited the franchise to specific groups and state courts said "go ahead", Fed courts cannot step in....
Given that no state is able to name how many ballots were out in the first place belies that claim.
Virtually ALL of them?
If it was "virtually ALL of them", then it would be easy to name one and provide the quote and context.
You don't know what you are talking about. There are records when a ballot is mailed to you, there are records when ballots are given to you at a polling place. Yes, ballots are counted, and a large number of missing ballots would be noticed.
State electoral district boundaries can be, and are, "gerrymandered."
Stopped clock.