The Volokh Conspiracy
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Lies, Damned Lies, and …
How a truly ridiculous statistical notion played its part in the January 6 uprising
… Statistics!
I was struck, during Tuesday's Jan. 6 Committee hearings, that my candidate for "Most Idiotic Statistical Claim Ever Put Forward in Public" award - the coveted MISCEPFiP Award - seems to have played a small but important role in the now-famous "unhinged" meeting in the Oval Office.
You may recall the claim to which I am referring from my earlier posts from back in December 2020: the "proof" that it was "statistically impossible" - "less than one in a quadrillion chance"** - that Biden could have won the election without engaging in massive fraud.
**A quadrillon is an actual number: 1 followed by 15 zeroes (10^15). An event with a probability of occurrence of one in a quadrillion can indeed be considered "statistically impossible" for all intents and purposes - roughly equal to the probability of flipping a fair coin 50 times and getting "heads" on each one. Not exactly impossible, but if it happens to you, you can pretty safely conclude that the coin is biased. [The original post had an incorrect assessment of this probability. H/t Jordan Brown and other commenters for correcting this error]
The claim appears to have had two independent sources. One was Texas A.G. Paxton's motion and supporting brief, submitted to the the Supreme Court as part of his unsuccessful attempt to get the Court to overturn the results of the 2020 election. Paxton, citing an expert report by economist Charles Cicchetti, actually asserted that the "probability of former Vice President Biden winning the popular vote in Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin independently" is "less than one in a quadrillion," and therefore that "the odds of Biden winning these four States collectively" was "less than one in a quadrillion to the fourth power" (i.e. 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000).
The second source for this preposterous claim** appears to have been the "Special Report" prepared by then-US Trade Representative Peter Navarro (at then-President Trump's urging), colorfully titled "The Immaculate Deception," purporting to document the "Statistical Irregularities in the Battleground States" that demonstrate the existence of "a coordinated strategy to effectively stack the election deck against the Trump-Pence ticket."
**For reasons I and others have set forth elsewhere, these claims are totally nonsensical and ridiculous. In brief: What the statistical analyses actually show is that (A) the odds of obtaining the reported results in any of the four states if the 2020 voting population had precisely the same Dem. v. Rep. party preferences as the 2016 voting population are infinitesimally small, and (B) the odds of obtaining the reported results in any of the four states if mail-in and in-person voters had precisely the same Dem. v. Rep party preferences are also infinitesimally small. There is, of course, no reason whatsoever to believe that either of those two conditions held true, so these analyses have no relevance whatsoever to any of the actual election results. Indeed, what the analyses actually "prove" is that the 2020 voting population did not have precisely the same Dem. v. Rep. party preferences as the 2016 voting population (duh), and mail-in and in-person voters did not have precisely the same Dem. v. Rep. party preferences (ditto).
But back to the Meeting of the Unhinged, at which, apparently, there was considerable discussion of these various "proofs" that Biden could not possibly have won the election. Our then-President bought them hook, line, and sinker - just what he was looking for! Proof! He reportedly turned to his White House advisors ("Team Normal") and said: "Sidney and Rudy are giving me something - what are you giving me?" I guess he didn't have time to look carefully at the underlying statistical models, what with all the screaming and f-bombing going on in the Oval Office late that night (though I wonder what Texas A.G. Paxton's excuse might have been).
And thus do tiny acorns become great oaks. Rep. Jamie Raskin described what happened next:
Not long after Sidney Powell, General Flynn, and Rudy Giuliani left the White House in the early hours of the morning [of Dec. 19], Donald Trump issued a tweet that would galvanize his followers, unleash a political firestorm, and change the course of our history as a country. Trump's purpose was to mobilize a crowd. And how do you mobilize a crowd in 2020? With millions of followers on Twitter, President Trump knew exactly how to do it. At 1:42 AM on December 19, 2020, shortly after the last participants left the unhinged meeting, Trump sent out the tweet with his explosive invitation.
"Peter Navarro releases 36-page report alleging election fraud 'more than sufficient' to swing victory to Trump https://t.co/D8KrMHnFdK . A great report by Peter. Statistically impossible to have lost the 2020 Election. Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!"
In the history of dangerous nonsense, this surely holds pride of place. This would all be hilarious - it is hilarious, soon to be a major motion picture I'm sure - except for the fact that it was actually part of a determined attempt - the first in our history - to unlawfully overthrow the democratically-elected government of the United States. We should probably be careful about focusing too much - tempting though it is - on the farcical and ridiculous aspects of these events for fear of appearing to diminish their seriousness. The Beer Hall Putsch of 1923 was similarly dismissed by many Germans as little more than a pathetic joke, and while Donald Trump is no Hitler (thank God), we should keep in mind that in 1923, Hitler wasn't yet "Hitler," either; I suspect that twenty years later, a fair number of Germans regretted not having taken the threat he posed in 1923 more seriously.
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"except for the fact that it was actually part of a determined attempt - the first in our history - to unlawfully overthrow the democratically-elected government of the United States. "
Really, contesting an election is an attempt to overthrow the government? I guess 2000 never happened and neither did 2016.
Maybe Oliver Stone will make a movie that answers all the questions.
It's not the contesting part... its the trying to prevent a constitutional process from happening with violence part.
Unlike those times that Democrat-aligned terrorists tried to blow up Congress, or commit mass murder at a softball practice?
Unlike how Democrats refuse to investigate or prosecute people trying to intimidate the Supreme Court, even after an assassination attempt against them?
And those people have been prosecuted... Now they are trying to prosecute people involved in J6. So, do you want people to be punished for their actions or not?
No, the people illegally trying to intimidate and harass Supreme Court justices are not being prosecuted. As I said. They are being praised, and their crimes normalized, by Democrats in the other two branches of the federal government.
Find out who Ray Epps' handlers are and you're know who was behind the Reichstag fire... sorry coup attempt.
A pretty useless comment. If you are paying attention at all, you have seen many people behind this. You just don't like who it is.
Epps doesn't have any handlers, you gullible fool.
Are you reading different posts and commenting on mine? Because you make no sense whatsoever.
Are you talking to me?
I was responding to Ravenshrike's idiocy.
The problem here is that Trump hasn't actually been linked to any of the violence. Not any more than Democrats were linked to several years of murderous rioting, anyway.
So what you're left with are some really dodgy legal strategies.
I will frankly say that Trump's gullibility towards some con men telling him he could still contest the election even after the EC had voted was somewhat shocking to me. That displayed very bad judgement on his part. What it didn't display, though, is criminal intent, or violence.
The problem here is that Trump hasn't actually been linked to any of the violence.
So far, all we know is that he encouraged it, condoned it, allowed it to continue when he could have stopped it, and after it was over praised the perpetrators and told them he loved them.
You make him sound like a Democrat, except the Democrat rioters caused billions of dollars in damages.
Liz Cheney said it better than I could. He’s a grown man, not a impressionable child. Willful blindness is not an excuse. I do like how this has become the party line, however.
Al Capone wasn't "actually linked to any of the violence" either.
All this notorious mobster talk is slander!
Osama bin Laden didn't fly the planes, but somehow we all understand he was responsible for 9/11. He organized the perpetrators, led the planning, funded it, and praised the perpetrators. Seems like a link to me.
Brett: I will frankly say that Trump's gullibility towards some con men telling him he could still contest the election even after the EC had voted was somewhat shocking to me. That displayed very bad judgement on his part. What it didn't display, though, is criminal intent, or violence.
I doubt very much that he was "gullible." Gullible implies that he was persuaded by all this bullshit. I doubt that he was; he didn't believe for one second that space lasers sent by the Italian government had changed Trump votes to Biden votes. But if it let him shout "fraud" to his supporters, he was gonna grab onto it no matter what. Gullible implies naivete - what was going on here was much closer to manipulation that gullibility. The folks who are gullible are those who continue, to this day, to believe the nonsense he was peddling. Inexplicable to me.
And still not criminal. Hey didn’t a bunch of folks make up a story about Russian collusion in 2016?
Intentionally trying to halt the count in order to attempt to stay in office despite the vote of the American people is actually a crime. At the very least it's interfering with an official act.
And "interfering with an official act" is only a crime if done in a corrupt manner. You have to do it by bribery or threat, it's not sufficient to just advance a stupid legal theory, or we'd be convicting lawyers of that all the time.
If you can prove that Trump directed the break in at the Capitol, you can nail him on 'interfering with an official act'. Simply holding a political rally at the other end of the Mall doesn't get you there.
Since the election went to Biden, this was as corrupt as corrupt gets.
There is now pretty strong evidence that Trump was fine with the break-in, and wanted to go and urge the insurrectionists on in person, so he pretty clearly had the requisite intent.
"I doubt very much that he was "gullible.""
Yes, I get that, when it comes to Trump, you start from a presumption of guilt, and I'm still starting from a presumption of innocence. So you dismiss out of hand any interpretation of the facts that doesn't end with him guilty, and I don't.
You don't give Hillary a presumption of innocence - your high horse is just partisan bluster.
More, you are behind the times on the evidence of what Trump knew and when he knew it.
You mean with fraud and violence, but otherwise, yes.
I believe Biden won the election. If one is cheating, why lose House and Senate seats the same year?
I did enjoy the pro-democracy protest at the Capitol, January 6. I am enjoying the hearings watching Swamp verklempt people. They are still trying to ride the name recognition of Donald Trump, and cannot let go, due to the ratings from his name.
Because when one has to stop counting in 6 states before resuming in the dead of night to bring in additional ringer votes that they didn't think they'd need, there's no time to fully fill out ballots.
In order to contest an election you have to have actionable facts.
Get back to us when you find one of those AND DON'T THROW CRAP AT US THAT HAS BEEN ALREADY DEBUNCTED.
O course it's difficult when judges claim lack of standing or mootness and never allow you to present any evidence.
Several judges considering Trump's claims addressed the merits; others dismissed lawsuits for lack of standing (which in federal court goes to subject matter jurisdiction and must be considered as a threshold matter in any lawsuit).
The evidence simply was not there.
Very little, if any was allowed to be presented.
False. All of it was presented. Not in each and every case, but across the cases. All was rejected as either fraudulent (an 'expert' report that thought votes were fraudulent because he didn't know which counties were in which states); superfraudulent (an 'expert' intelligence analyst who turned out to be a truck mechanic); ignorant ('I saw someone with a plastic bag with trash in it, so FRAUD!!!!!'); or ignorant and recanted ('I think I overheard someone tell postal worker to backdate ballots… well, maybe I didn't.').
The former President is a confidence man and so it is not unexpected for him to throw out misleading statistics. His goal is not to make a case but to sow doubt that he can then exploit. Much the same with his request to the DOJ to just say there was election fraud and he would do the rest.
What we do know is that former President Trump won only the EC in 2016 and that by a small margin in three states. He was not able to win the popular vote. In his four years in he did nothing to expand his popularity beyond his base. And there was a crisis in his final years, the pandemic. All these are a recipe for defeat as Jimmy Carter and George H. Bush can testify to.
Finally, to look at it statistically Joe Biden had a strong popular vote win of 4.5% and this supports the EC win.
"What we do know is that former President Trump won only the EC in 2016 and that by a small margin in three states. He was not able to win the popular vote."
Biden "won" by a small margin (approximately less than 50,000 votes total) in three states.
Popular vote is a repeated straw man. That's not how (for better or worse) presidents are chosen.
But it is a measure of popularity. And isn't it possible that someone who is so unpopular could lose? Despite how much his followers love him? He lost the popular vote both times because he's not popular.
Again, not how presidents are elected. Four other presidents were elected who did not win the popular vote.
You missed the point entirely.
No, you did.Popular vote only means something to you when a Dem loses the EC.
Sure, but fundamentally, what happened is that HRC won by a small margin nationally, and lost by a small margin in the 3 key states. Biden did a bit better than her nationally, and won by by a small margin in the 3 key states (plus AZ and Georgia). The two elections were very similar to each other, with Trump doing a bit worse in 2020, which makes all the "impossible, unprecedented and therefore fraud" claims ridicilous.
Actually, Trump did better in 2020, he increased his votes a lot. Biden just did betterer.
The economy would have swept Trump into a second term. It had to be destroyed by the fake hype of a weak coldvirus to shut down the economy and destroy the stock market. As a result, the tech billionaire owners of the media took in $1.7 trillion. Biggest fraud heist in history. In China, the tech billionaires took in $2 trillion. They paid no taxes on this fraud heist since they never sell shares. They just borrow from the banks where they are kept at 1%.
Ah yes, and every government on earth participated in the hoax because reasons.
A weak coldvirus?! That's a new one. Last time I looked, this weak coldvirus killed over one million Americans. We're sure lucky it wasn't a strong coldvirus!! Calling Covid-19 a weak virus is a lot like calling the Vietnam War (in which 58,000 Americans died) + the Korean War (40,000) + WWII (298,000) + WW1 (117,00) [total: approx 500,000, or 1/2 of the Covid-19 toll) "minor political disturbances)."
Well if you count the fact that Covid was blamed for seemingly every death that occurred during that period I guess you have a point. Funny that no one apparently died from the regular old flu.
Given the lack of any fact based guidance (everyone was guessing) from the FDA and CDC and foot dragging in exploring treatments it's a wonder more didn't die.
Bedfellows with Behar.
Good luck with that.
"while Donald Trump is no Hitler (thank God), we should keep in mind that in 1923, Hitler wasn't yet "Hitler," either"
Is Reason's routine preempting of Godwin's Law a recent thing or did I just overlook it til now? Or are they worried that he might win the next presidential election and are trying to cement that link in our minds?
I feel everyone deserves their day in court. At least one judge bit and swore the people in.
"Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?"
"We do."
"Ok, give me your evidence of massive fraud. What happened? Remember, you go to jail if you lie. So what happened?"
"Well...not muuuuuch. I took my daughter for an Orange Julius."
There's a meme to cover this up, that all judges were forbidding this info on the stands, as if that would hinder the guy with the biggest megaphone on the planet, a megaphone so large some suggest the President cannot even be libeled, because theory of libel assumes there's a bigger voice out there ripping on you and you cannot counter it.
So let the other side have their day in court, and let's see if it was an honest belief in fraud, or a knowing deception to introduce deliberately false slates of electors.
The other side, of course, themselves no stranger to hot air vs. facts on the ground.
So let the other side have their day in court. . .
The fuck you been at the past 18 months?
All this Hitler stuff from all directions is so tiresome. I mean, in 1932 FDR wasn’t Hitler either. These comparisons are always ridiculously overwrought.
Hitler was an outlier. Virtually nobody has been or is going to be the next Hitler. Anybody who makes this comparison should be ignored.
Bevis: I'm not crazy, myself, about Hitler comparisons. But the actions taken on Jan 6 bear a very, very strong resemblance to the failed Putsch of 1923. And as for the notion that "nobody has been or is going to be the next Hitler," tell that to the Cambodians living under Pol Pot, or the three million Ukrainians starved to death by Stalin, or the millions killed by Mao, ... You may take comfort from the idea that Hitler was an outlier; I do not.
Yea go peacefully and protest has that Hitler vibe. For sure.
David, Democrats have, literally, compared every Republican candidate for President starting with Dewey to Hitler. Every damned one of them. They'd have started earlier, I suppose, except that people wouldn't have known who Hitler was.
They've already started in on DeSantis.
After a while you get tired of it. So give it a rest.
Brett, that's irrelevant. Prof. Post is making a specific analogy, and your complaining about the Dems (and ignoring the GOP calling every Dem Hitler and Stalin and Marx) is not relevant to that argument - it's basically group ad hominem.
If you don't like the Putsch analogy, address that.
Numberphile addresssed this in Dec. 2020.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua5aOFi-DKs
While I can believe that Paxton is really too stupid to understand how ridiculous his claim is, the same can't be said of Navarro.
He is a stunningly dishonest individual.
...as opposed to our current President and Vice President.
Paxton is my state AG. He’s now suing Biden for his order that says essentially that if someone’s life is at risk then a doctor must treat them. Paxton is taking a brave stand against the Hippocratic Oath.
The world would be a better place with him in prison where he belongs.
What the numbers showed was that the 2016 electorate wasn’t the same electorate as the 2020 electorate. It was very unlikely that two samples drawn from the same electorate could have produced results that different.
But there are many obviously legitimate reasons why the electorates of two different elections 4 years apart would be different. The country’s demographics changed. Public opinion changed. Trump’s challenger was different and might have been more acceptable to the electorate. The electorate had several years to view Trump in office and their opinion about him could easily have changed as a result of what they saw.
It was the leap from the legitimate but completely uninteresting conclusion that the two electorates were different to the completely unsupportable conclusion that the difference could only be explained by fraud that was patently absurd.
The idea that two electorates 4 years apart and separated by a very controversial presidency could simply be assumed to remain identical, and setting up a dichotomy where the only two possible explanations for any differences are statistical sampling error and fraud (so if statistical sampling error is rejected, fraud must be accepted) was just rediculous. Utterly rediculous. Really really really rediculous.
One of the things I’ve mentioned in my comments from time to time is false dichotomies, the tendency of zealots to see only two possible options, and rig things in their minds so that if they can knock out a straw man alternative option, their option has to be accepted.
This is a really big boner of an example of a false dichotomy, and just how rediculous they can be.
You forgot to mention that the sampling methods were also radically different between the two elections.
TDS did develop which shifted some but the election rule changes which lessened security and even then partisan courts in states, PA that means you, decided even the relaxed laws needed to arbitrarily relaxed more to favor Democrats .
So yea it was a team effort like the infamous Time article bragged about but not on a good way. Not an entirely legal effort either,
No doubt you’d also call the Voting Rights Act of 1965 a partisan effort to favor Democrats. And the 15th Amendment was a partisan effort to favor Republicans.
In general, when one side doesn’t want people to vote, allowing them to vote tends to favor the other side. And if the side that doesn’t want people to vote insists on describing things in exclusively partisan temrs, efforts to allow people to vote transmogrify into partisan efforts. And of course all those efforts to keep them from voting somehow, magically, aren’t.
It just kinda works that way.
Wreckinball, who thinks people smashing windows and attacking cops with weapons is just tourism, thinks an article he didn't bother to read "bragged about" something it never mentioned.
Assume, with no facts to support it, that the election was rigged and Trump really did win in 2020. Even assuming that, everything Trump has done in the meantime demonstrates how utterly unfit he is to be president. A president puts the interests of the country ahead of his own selfish interests. That's what Nixon did in 1960, when the election probably was stolen; Nixon knew he'd been robbed but he also knew the best interests of the country were to let it be; probably one of the few noble things he did in his entire public life.
How is it good for the country to create deep suspicion about our basic institutions, fan the flames of mistrust in an already deeply polarized atmosphere, and oh yes, send a bunch of violent thugs to the Capitol to try to prevent Congress from performing one of its core functions, thus doing huge damage to our reputation internationally? Someone who puts the country first does not do these things.
Wow it only took you 62 years to think that Nixon probably won in 1960.
You mean elections can be stolen?
Ummmmm. Ummmmmm. For the good of The People, let an election be stolen?
It's clear the outrage over Trump's attempts to do so holds no bounds to the array of efforts to stop him.
I seriously doubt, had the knowingly false slates of electors won the day, people opposed would have done the apparently noble thing, according to some, and let it be.
Nixon's campaign was still trying to "overturn the election" in several state courts right up to when the Electors met.
This entire "Even Nixon didn't..." thing is just as much of a myth as "Nixon's Southern Strategy".
"we should keep in mind that in 1923, Hitler wasn't yet 'Hitler,'"
Then we're already fucked. Hitler gained power through the electoral system, not in spite of it.
Yup, with no electoral college there would have been no Trump presidency and no January 6. I know all the beautiful theory about big states not bullying small states. Well, that's the theory; January 6 is the actual practical result.
Specious. With no immigration from Germany there would have been no Trump presidency and no January 6th. With no New York there would have been no Trump presidency and no January 6th. With no Obama presidency there would have been no Trump presidency and no January 6th. With no recognition of ballots from states that voted Biden they would have been no Trump presidency and no January 6th. It's certainly no surprise you choose the one factor you personally have an issue with as the actual cause but it's also dishonest.
You're also backwards. If Trump has to use violent means to not even keep power after legally gaining power then it's completely opposite of Hitler.
Nazis also held a plurality of seats when he became power. He wouldn't have needed an electoral college.
I'm talking about this country, not another country 90 years ago. Though with direct popular vote determining that outcome, I doubt Hitler would have come to power either.
Except that the one factor I listed happens to be the one most directly related to Trump being president and the events of January 6.
> with no electoral college there would have been no Trump presidency and no January 6
This is by no means guaranteed to any degree of certainty. If the rules of the game are changed, the people playing change how they play; candidates campaign differently and voters vote differently. It is silly to take the results of the Presidential election via electoral college and assume you would get the same outcome in terms of vote distribution under an election via popular vote.
I can't think of any plausible scenario under which Trump wins in 2016 without the electoral college. If you have one, I'll be glad to hear it.
The argument from incredulity doesn't convince many people, nor should it; What you can conceive of is only information about the part of the universe inside your head, after all.
If there were no EC, then the parties would contest all states, because votes in all states would matter.
If there were no EC, Republicans in 'blue' states, and Democrats in 'red' states, would actually have some reason to show up and vote.
It would be a completely different political environment.
Yes, if you assume the political environment that the EC created and maintains, and the only change is that for some reason the popular vote mattered, it seems unlikely Trump could have won.
It is literally insane to assume that.
True but the electoral college is a feature which allows small states to have a voice.
There would be United States if the big states didn't agree to it. It's also in teh constitution so it would require 2/3 of congress and 3/4 of the states to repeal it.,
That won't happen.
Meant to say there would be no United States without the electoral college.
Having a voice, and having a veto, are not the same thing.
It’s a weighted vote not a veto
Amend the Constitution.
Ha ha they can't because like much of their agenda it's just not popular.
It's not popular with 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the states. I'll bet if it were put to a nationwide popular vote you'd find it's more popular than you think.
That's not how it's done. Amend the Constitution.
The point is, you can't set up a system under which public opinion is largely irrelevant and then say that Democrats lose because they have unpopular ideas. Stop pretending that conservative policies enjoy majority support. They don't. It's just that under our system, majority support doesn't matter.
You seem to be reinforcing why we have the electoral college. GA didn’t want to be ruled by NY
Bullwarks against minority neglect are not the same as minority rule.
Do you want permanent minority rule in our Republic?
No, that's wrong and also makes no sense. How does the electoral college prevent Georgia from being ruled by New York? That might be an argument about the senate, but it doesn't have anything to do with the electoral college.
Not necessarily. People play the game to win by the rules as they are. Sans an electoral college, the Republicans would play a different game. The Democrats play this game, too. Pounding the table for "popular vote" is a rhetorical game, of use only in the moment and as long as it supports your side.
You will trumpet the electoral college when, not if, the tables are turned as they eventually are.
Indeed, "popular vote" is part of a deligitimization effort, nothing more, to the power hungry. When things change, those who chuck things into the top of the echo chamber for talking heads to parrot will do so, and the heads will follow.
https://youtu.be/9iMy0969BTw
I have no doubt that on the day the electoral college elects a Democrat who lost the popular vote, conservatives will suddenly discover the EC isn't such a hot idea after all. And you're right that the strategy would have been different. But as I said above, I can't think of any plausible scenario under which Trump wins without an electoral college. If you have one, let's hear it.
And one of the arguments against the EC is that it actually reduces voter participation. If you are a California Republican, or a Mississippi Democrat, there is little reason for you to bother to vote in a presidential election. Or for your candidates to campaign in your state. Get rid of the EC and you might well see Republicans campaigning in California.
Kerry one state away from winning presidency while losing popular vote in 2004. I strongly believe that if that actually happened, we'd probably have gotten an amendment abolishing the electoral college by 2008.
"With no electoral college there'd have been no Trump presidency".
WTF does that have to do with anything? Without the American Revolution there would have been no Trump presidency. Without free oxygen in the atmosphere there would have been no Trump presidency.
All of those things are things that exist and that have been lived with for going on 250 years. It's a bogus discussion point. A loser's whine.
I'm simply pointing out cause and effect. Whatever benefits (specious, in my opinion) that the electoral college may have, it makes election fraud easier, electing demagogues easier, and gave us January 6. If you want to make the argument that all of that is worth is just to make it harder for Democrats to win, fine, make that argument. But don't ignore the bad stuff it does either.
"it makes election fraud easier, "
But Dems keep saying there was no fraud in 2020 election.
Sorry, chief, your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise.
How does it make it harder for Democrats to win? I live in Texas, although I don't vote straight red or blue. By your logic, places like Vermont and Hawaii are overriding the will of the majority of Texans and the electoral college makes it harder for Republicans to win.
Because it increases the voting power of rural states which trend conservative, and your ability to cite counter-examples doesn't change that that's the general rule.
More to the point, four times in US history the electoral college has gone for the candidate that lost the popular vote. All four times it was the Republican that lost the popular vote.
If and when the EC elects a Democrat who lost the popular vote, get back to me. As of now, that has never happened.
By your logic, places like Vermont and Hawaii are overriding the will of the majority of Texans and the electoral college makes it harder for Republicans to win.
The first part of that is true for those specific cases.
But in general Krychek is unquestionably right that, in the current political environment, the EC strongly favors the Republicans, as does the structure of the Senate.
They are both really poorly thought out institutions.
Then amend it.
Yup, with no electoral college there would have been no Trump presidency
You have no idea what you're talking about (as usual). Campaign strategies...at least intelligent ones...are based on the realities of the electoral system. The Trump campaign was geared toward winning electoral votes, not the popular vote, which is why it focused so much on states that were winnable by him, and largely ignored those that weren't. The Clinton campaign, on the other hand, took several states that were not a lock for her (Wisconsin, et al) for granted, and largely ignored them, and wasted more effort than it should have on those that were a lock (NY, CA, etc).
Were the popular vote what mattered then the Trump campaign would no doubt have adopted a completely different strategy based on that. Given that and the stupidity shown by the Clinton campaign (on multiple fronts) you have no valid basis for your assertion that Trump could not (or at least would not) have won in 2016 under a popular vote system.
Eh, that's what happened. Hillary's campaign was as focused on EC as Trump. It simply assumed that Wisconsin and Michigan were safe, and put all of its efforts into the states that would take it to 270+ (Pennsylvania, Ohio, North Carolina, Florida). The idea that she campaigned in NYC and CA is a myth- she simply travelled there to fundraise (as did Trump).
Hillary's campaign was as focused on EC as Trump.
Not hardly. Trump spent significantly more time in the battlegrounds states than Clinton did, including during the month leading up to the election, holding more (and bigger) rallies than her.
It simply assumed that Wisconsin and Michigan were safe
Which, as I said, was stupid.
The idea that she campaigned in NYC and CA is a myth- she simply travelled there to fundraise (as did Trump).
When you're attending fundraisers and giving speeches, you're campaigning. But even your claim doesn't help the case. Clinton attended over 350 fundraisers, raising over $500 million. Trump attended just under 60, raising about half ($258 million) of what Clinton did. Who does it sound like focused more on campaigning for actual votes in battleground states vs raising money? You only have a finite amount of time to spend on a campaign, when you spend more of it grubbing for money and less of it in battleground states trying to win votes you're NOT focused on winning EV.
Lies, Damned Lies, and …
Title of the history of the Biden/Harris (Harris/Biden?) administration.
https://lostnotstolen.org//wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Lost-Not-Stolen-The-Conservative-Case-that-Trump-Lost-and-Biden-Won-the-2020-Presidential-Election-July-2022.pdf
I know, I know, these are all RINOs, feel free to ignore if you’re a huckleberry.
Dinosaurs.
At least Trump didn't run the Economy into the ground, only reason World War 2.5 hasn't broken out is Putin's a patient guy.
Frank "Likes Trains on Time (to work, not to the Ovens)
Hmmm....
GDP is in the same range it's been the past 10 years.
Unemployment has steadily sunk since early 2020: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate
Personal income increased $113.4 billion, or 0.5 percent at a monthly rate, while consumer spending increased $32.7 billion, or 0.2 percent, in May. The increase in personal income primarily reflected an increase in compensation. The personal saving rate (that is, personal saving as a percentage of disposable personal income) was 5.4 percent in May, compared with 5.2 percent in April.
Canada, China, and Mexico, the US's three most significant trading partners (each representing just above 14% of our current trade), will continue to see economic improvements. (Forbes)
Inflation is extremely high (@ 9.1%) but whether that's good or bad depends on whether you owe someone money or someone owes you money; if you owe someone money, e.g., a mortgage, then inflation is awesome (and is how Trumpee made a lot of money in the 70s). If someone owes you money, e.g., retirees, then inflation sucks.
"whether that's good or bad depends"
Incredible.
Inflation destroys countries.
Is 2000% inflation in Zimbabwe good if you're a Zimbabwean who owes someone money?
It's amazing the ridiculous mental pretzels the zealous will construct to forgive their side when they screw up.
The only mental pretzel here is you trying to compare some outlying crazy scenario to the United States situation
Professor Post....Is there an email address where you can be reached? Commenter_XY would like to collect on our wager. I looked on the CATO website, did not see a contact email. Hope you see this.
What was your wager?
It was about Russia withdrawing from Ukraine by March 31. Professor Post wagered Russia would leave; I took the opposite (Russia would remain and invade Ukraine). The wager was $50, which I intend to spend on some very nice glasses of Ukrainian red wine with Professor Post.
I'm with you until the "Hitler wasn't yet Hitler" bit. Show me Trump's book where he lays out his philosophy and plans to commit mass murder and plunge the world into war to prove the superiority of the American race. I'll wait.
A "yuge" part of why Trump is still more popular than Biden or any other potential Democrat presidential nominee is that even rational people like David Post can't seem to help themselves from swallowing the lines about white supremacy or Trump being some sort of US version of Juan Peron. That's the same kind of mentality that sank Republican opposition to Barack Obama. Obama wasn't a communist, or a secret Muslim, or most of the other weird things he was accused of. He was a weak president who made many foreign policy missteps and encouraged destructive identity politics at home. It would have been more effective to stick with calling him out on those, just as it would be more effective to stick with calling Trump out on his anti-intellectualism, instead of falsely accusing him of being a Nazi.
Yea I hear about using violence but none if it Republican or Trump.
Good article today on this.
https://issuesinsights.com/2022/07/15/from-rule-of-law-to-the-law-of-the-jungle/
"rational people like David Post"
I'm going to need to see some evidence for that proposition.
15 years of posts here says otherwise
As I recall Bob from Ohio, you had a one-liner that would annoy Professor Post to no end. 🙂
(you've been very good at not using that one-liner)
It worked better when the Washington Post hosted the Conspiracy anyway. Triple word score.
Please note, again: I'm not saying "Trump is like Hitler." I'm saying his failed putsch reminds me of Hitler's failed putsch, and that if the Germans had paid more attention to the threat posed to its democratic structures the world would have been a better place.
We know what you're saying. The problem is that you don't seem to think you have any obligation to prove that Trump attempted a putsch. Or a coup.
It's easily demonstrated that Trump attempted a really dubious legal strategy to overturn the election result. But a putsch/coup isn't a stupid legal strategy. It's a violent overthrow of the government. And you haven't even begun to establish a legally meaningful link between Trump and the violence. (By legally meaningful, I mean the sort of link that wouldn't have half of the Democratic Congress responsible for worse riots in the years prior.)
The amount of violence deployed on January 6th was too small by orders of magnitude to have worked as a putsch. But forget that: Our system isn't even plausibly vulnerable to a putsch, and certainly not one by somebody like Trump; Even supposing that the members of Congress had been captured, and coerced into voting that Trump had won, what comes next? Next to nobody outside the building would have accepted a coerced EC count as legitimate! He was barely able to get the bureaucracy to do his bidding on a good day, the State department brags that they were lying to him about troop levels in the Middle East, his own AG was running out the clock on investigations he'd been ordered to conduct.
It wouldn't have installed Trump in power for another four years, it would have guaranteed his political death, and if he'd tried to accept the coerced result, probably his literal death. Hell, I'd have gladly capped him myself under that scenario, and I voted for him!
You know what the January 6th violence WAS sufficient in scale for? Not a beer hall putsch. A Reichstag fire.
It very nicely and predictably put an end to all of Trump's legal strategies, it spiked his actual attempt to prove that he was the actual winner. He was forced by it to concede the very next day!
I don't think it was a Reichstag fire, but that makes more sense than a failed putsch.
It still is statistically very very improbable. The problem with elections is that if you don't secure the front end it's basically impossible to sort out the back end. The cheaters of course know this.
Once a vote is received it becomes anonymous which is obviously a very important feature, But also makes it impossible to really trace afterwards.
But the circumstantial evidence is pretty strong. Been around a long time and 5 critical swing states stopping counting, excluding poll observers in big blue cities and then emerging in the morning with a step change for Biden is why the statistical probablity is basically zero,
It happened so no wonder the victim is mad. Being mad and F-bombing is not a crime.
... DOES it? Does it really? In my state they put a number on the ballot and a matching number by your name in the book that shows who voted. Seems like anyone with access to both the ballot and the book could look at exactly how you voted.
Take a look at your ballot next time you vote: That number is on the tear off section. It's just for tracking that you really did vote.
Mind, I suppose it would be possible to keep it on there. Just really, really conspicuous.
And as far as abusing executive power shall we compare Trump vs Biden to see who is more inclined.
As far as weaponizing the DOJ should we compare Barr vs Garland
I think we should.
" And as far as abusing executive power shall we compare Trump vs Biden to see who is more inclined. "
The insurrection committee is doing that, you bigoted, uneducated, worthless clinger.
The insurrection committee is comparing Trump to Biden?
Dude I’d love to meet up in person. You would possibly get the word bigot out before you’d hit the floor in serious need of a dentist
Maybe don't threaten violence against someone whose typings make you mad.
Makes you seem pathetic.
If you're going to criticize innumeracy you shouldn't exhibit extreme innumeracy in the same breath. No, there are not "one in a quadrillion" odds that "every egg scrambled tomorrow morning across the globe will spontaneously re-assemble itself into unscrambled form."
To do a reality check, there are about 4 billion eggs consumed per day. Let's say 1 billion of them are scrambled for breakfast. If the above were true, the odds of a single breakfast egg unscrambling itself would be 10^15/10^9=10^6, so one in a million. If this were the case, roughly one thousand eggs should unscramble themselves at breakfast each day. This does not happen, because the odds of a single egg unscrambling itself are unfathomably smaller than that.
The fact that the author did not immediately realize that this example is a complete howler makes one suspect that they are not in a good position to evaluate statistical propositions in general. So making fun of others' innumeracy might not be wise: glass houses and all that.
You're assuming the odds of an egg unscrambling itself is independent of the odds of any other egg unscrambling itself, though. We have absolutely no data on this event happening so we can't know it's independent. Maybe someone has a virus they're planning to introduce into the chicken population that does something really weird to the eggs?
Yeah, an individual egg unscrambling itself is so cosmically unlikely that if one did it, you'd almost be forced to assume something really weird was going on, and that you had to reassess the odds.
I don't remember Hitler taking power, allowing free elections and leaving office.
Go back to Beatles fanboying.
Yes, our Republic is marginally stronger than Weimar Germany, much to your chagrin.
I don't want to see it tested another time.
Can you share the calculations underlying this claim?
Not yet, still scrambling the eggs.
I think you'd have to ask Paxton directly, unless you think he is one of the commentors here. It'd be a fun game figuring out which public figures post under which names. In retrospect, it is pretty obvious that Mick was Rudy G. FRAUD!
I think you'd have to ask Paxton directly
Why would he need to ask Paxton about a claim made by Post?
Prof. Post - who does occasionally engage with the comments - appears to be the originator of the scrambled egg analysis.
I read that formatting as indicating a quote, but I guess he could be quoting himself. I'd have expected that from a certain other conspirator though.
Statistically, the average adult human has about one testicle and one breast.
Statistically, the vast majority of humans have an above-average number of arms and legs.
And?
To the many folks who took me to task for my scrambled eggs illustration: Mea maxima culpa. I was overstating the case. I've changed the post to read:
A quadrillon is an actual number: 1 followed by 15 zeroes (10^15). An event with a probability of occurrence of one in a quadrillion can indeed be considered "statistically impossible" for all intents and purposes - roughly equal to the probability of flipping a fair coin 50 times and getting "heads" on each one. Not exactly impossible, but if it happens to you, you can pretty safely conclude that the coin is biased. [The original post had an incorrect assessment of this probability. H/t Jordan Brown and other commenters for correcting this error]
Needless to say, I don't think this error affects the larger point I was trying to make ... [And note to AG Paxton: if this were a Supreme Court filing rather than a blog post, I would've been more careful]
Yea well for the most secure election in history a lot of odd things happened
Nah.
This was certainly not the first determined attempt "to unlawfully overthrow the democratically-elected government of the United States". Most notably, there was a substantially more determined and disruptive attempt after the election of 1860.
I guess that depends on your definitions. They only wanted to "overthrow" as applied to them, not as applied to the rest of the country.
The Confederate "rebels" did not attempt to overthrow and take over the government of the United States; they attempted to leave the United States and set up their own nation-state. I stand by my statement in the O.P.: this was the first serious attempt to overthrow and take over the legitimately elected government of the United States.
"(i.e. 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000"
Why not just say 1 in a novemdecillion, if we're using big number names now.
Fun fact: There's a system for naming any finite number, even arbitrarily large ones. Prefix names go all the way to one milliatillion, 10^3003; then when you reach 10^3000003 it's milliamilliatillion, 10^3000000003 is milliamilliamilliatillion, and so on.
Hi, Rhoid. Great comment, bruh. I learn so much from your well spoken, clean comments.
mbrettmoore is the one who claimed "it's not the contesting part", not me.
You don't think that bombing Congress is an attempt to prevent a Constitutional process?
...no the leaders of the Dem party only encourage the intimidation and harassment of Supreme Court justices and their families.
"But the Left didn’t have the head of their party urge the VP to toss electors,"
Didn't Dems do exactly that in 2016?
Asking for a friend.
Let Brett eat bad steak in peace!
If he shot someone on a busy street, his base would love him even more because they'd see it as owning the libs.
Can elections be stolen? Krychek-2 seems to think so.
Your mistake is in thinking there is any policy they want. Remember, they didn't even bother with a 2020 platform. They have no agenda; they just want to pwn the libs. That's what they love about Trump: that he is an asshole, that he will never apologize for being an asshole, and that the right people hate him. They don't care whether he delivers on anything else. So Haley could never be a substitute. DeSantis is disliked by the right people, but he's still too serious for them.
So far the number of guns present at the Capitol and at Justice Kavanaugh's neighborhood are equal.
Bumble's with Megan Fox? Color me impressed!
Eating crow over what? Election results or child rape/abortion story?
Oh, and are you claiming that because elections *can be* stolen, it follows that the 2020 election *was* stolen? Because that's a fairly silly argument even for you. It *can* rain, doesn't mean it will today.
...and wear body armor, just in case.
Obfuscate. Your specialty. Dems did challenge the EC count and Pence did the same as Biden.
Praise Jesus! A post that makes sense.
See, that I could agree with.
What I believe is going on is that they're afraid that Trump has a decent prospect of winning in 2024, and are trying to set up a basis for invoking Section 3 of the 14th amendment.
But in terms of actual political damage to our electoral system, that has the potential to be much worse than anything Trump is guilty of. "We're going to bar the opposing party's favorite candidate from the ballot on a basis almost nobody in the opposing party thinks is legitimate."; No way that's going to backfire, right?
Congress should have impeached and convicted him (a crime is not required), thus making him ineligible to hold future office.
Of course you have to go beyond Trump's conduct on 06Jan, even his sending out incendiary texts against Pence after being told the Vice President's security was threatened, or treating rioters rampaging thru the Capitol as a sports spectacle to cheer as he ignored calls from Congressmen for help.
For instance, there's Trump's participation in John Eastman's attempted fraud. We knew DJT listened to Eastman's proposal that he'd (JE) trade letters to some states saying there was a Justice Department investigation of voting fraud underway (a total lie - no investigations existed) in exchange for the appointment to head the department. What we learned from recent hearings is White House call logs already listed Eastman as the designated head of the Justice Department before Trump was told there'd be mass resignations if the deal went thru. Trump had bought into the fraud before learning the consequences.
And so much more. Giving the Georgia Secretary of State the exact number of votes to manufacture. Pressuring state officials in Michigan, Arizona, and Pennsylvania to ignore their vote tallies. Demanding Pence perform a clearly unconstitutional act. Scores of junk lawsuits and months of systematic agitprop reminiscent of Pravda in high-Soviet days. Trump tried to steal a presidential election from U.S. voters, using both legal & illegal means. His loathsome conduct on 06Jan was the least of it.
I thought that might be true before the J6 hearings. Not anymore. We now know that there was an organized, pre-planned coup attempt.
No, I am saying (based on your comment) that elections can be stolen, contrary to the left's claims that it is not possible.
(because the big city areas, which tilt Dem, regularly report later)
And why is that? Better to allow to have time to find the votes you need?
You make no coherent points. Yea mail in voting is much more susceptible to fraud.
"Credulous child" you're such a bore? Go away.
Ballot boxes, mules, and they need to know how much they're behind. Lesson learned from 2016 where they forgot the polls were propaganda not reality.
Hey, if you want to support ballot access laws that guarantee that city-dwellers will have voting precincts with the same voter-to-voting-location ratio as rural areas, be my guest.
I mean, you'll be up against all those Republicans that regularly cut hours, voting locations, and early-voting days in urban areas, thus driving up the voter-to-location ratio, increasing density, lines, time taken to count, and so-on. But I'm sure that's a fight you're happy to wage, right?
Name anyone on the left who has said that it is not possible for elections to be stolen.
Virtually everyone of them.
Like Mittens not getting a sigle vote in some Philadelphia districts or districts with 112% participation.
Well, if it's virtually all of them, you should have no trouble coming up with a name or two.
Dems did challenge the EC count and Pence did the same as Biden.
Dems did challenge the EC count and Pence did the same as Biden.
Do you have ADHD? The statement is true and your obsession with numbers doesn't change that.
And Trump tried to have him killed for that! You kind of omit that little difference.
Bingo—in 2000 har Harris behaved as Rafensberger did in 2020 Gore would have won…Ipso facto Bush stole the 2000 election.
"And Trump tried to have him killed for that! You kind of omit that little difference."
Was he to be smothered by grannies in MAGA hats?
You do know what the people in the Capitol did to get inside, don't you?
You do, you're just lying about it.
They tried twice and failed. Is three the charm?
"Hillary Clinton dismissed President Trump as an “illegitimate president” and suggested that “he knows” that he stole the 2016 presidential election in a CBS News interview to be aired Sunday."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-trump-is-an-illegitimate-president/2019/09/26/29195d5a-e099-11e9-b199-f638bf2c340f_story.html
I was obviously referring to the 2012 election and not to 2020 which your link is about.
Stay on topic.
Simple question with no beak in site.
Eating crow over what? Election results or child rape/abortion story?
Your link doesn't support your claim. In fact, it pretty much destroys your claim.
"Mittens not getting a sigle [sic] vote in some Philadelphia districts"
Happened to both him and Trump in Cleveland also. Black precincts but after a few elections, you'd think someone would make a mistake once.
Let's have Post calculate the odds of that repeatedly happening.
Minor correction: you're confusing Eastman and Clark in the second paragraph.
Yikes! You're right. I got my grifters confused......
This would be mildly more convincing if there wasn't video of election officials in Georgia kicking out the poll watchers and then pulling out ballot boxes hidden underneath tables to count those.
Shades of Bob from Ohio, there. 😉
No, it's not a sekret plot, it's about 2020 was bad, and Trump promises to do it again.
For fuck sake.
Ok, duckie -- it's been a while. Cite?
Let me guess: you also believe professional wrestling is real.
Not to stereotype, but I'm betting the Venn diagram of Trump supporters and people who watch pro wrestling is a circle.
Hmmm... adoptive admission?
Funny how this surefire evidence you have couldn't persuade Republican election officials or make it into any of the scores of court cases filed by the "stolen election" liars.
So, we get that you are gullible, but it remains that the head of the snake was not so much gullible as preying on the gullible like you.
Yea you are monumentally stupid. Can you make an ad hominem free post
Trump says he'll pardon the Jan 06 insurrectionists.
Moreover, the GOP is moving 2020 truther-level partisans into place to count the votes in as many states as they can.
And all these 2020 true believers Trump continues to rile up think the Dems will try again in 2024.
It does not take a very smart person to pick up what is being laid down here. You, as usual, are playing dumb and asking for an explicit promise. But your pedantry only shows willful blindness.
Do you really want to bet on 2024, if Trump loses, going smoothly afterwards?
"Trump says he'll pardon the Jan 06 insurrectionists."
Pretty damned sure he didn't say that. Probably said that he'd pardon the political prisoners, or something like that.
Point being, if you're going to write "Trump says", it should probably be followed by something Trump said, not your interpretation of what he said.
Suppose you got it in your head that I was planning to rob a bank. And then I said, "I'm going over to the bank to make a withdrawal."
You don't get to say, "Brett said he's going out to rob the bank."
"Remember, they didn't even bother with a 2020 platform."
Enough with this stupid line. Trump WANTED a new platform in 2020. Why wouldn't he? As incumbent President, he'd have had a lot of say as to what was in it.
The GOP establishment voted to just keep the old platform, in order to deny him that input. As part of their attempt to minimize his impact on the party, so that when he was gone, they could go back to business as usual.
Here's the thing - there are no political prisoners. So when Trump is talking about pardons, he's saying he'll ensure people get away with their Jan 06 attempt to subvert the will of the voters through violence.
Not hard to see the message that sends.
You've decided they're mostly innocent already, I guess, so I guess you're already down for a 2024 Jan 06, since it was so cool and good.
No - Trump never bothered with a new platform. You think he was willing to put in that kind of work to actually draft a thing?!
Enough with this stupid line, Brett. There is no "GOP establishment," Brett. There is only Trump.
I think the fact that, every election, there are multiple precincts that report precisely zero Republican votes, is dodgy, but not in a vote fraud sense.
More a case of the one or two Republicans in those precincts being scared spitless.