The Volokh Conspiracy
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Justice Thomas and Loving v. Virginia
He already addressed the ruling at length in his Obergefell dissent.
Justice Thomas is married to a white woman. And the couple lives in Virginia. Prior to the Supreme Court's decision in Loving v. Virginia, the law of the Commonwealth criminalized interracial marriage. In the wake of Dobbs, critics have tried to hoist Justice Thomas on his own petard: Oh yeah, you would overrule Obergefell, but what about Loving? Indeed, Justice McDonald of the Connecticut Supreme Court, who is in a same-sex marriage, got in on the fun with some wordplay:
"Mr. Justice Thomas had much to say today about my loving marriage. Oddly he didn't have much to say about his 'Loving' marriage."
This argument was predictable, and flawed.
First, Justice Thomas already addressed the status of Loving in his Obergefell dissent. And he expressly distinguished Loving from Obergefell.
Petitioners' misconception of liberty carries over into their discussion of our precedents identifying a right to marry, not one of which has expanded the concept of "liberty" beyond the concept of negative liberty. Those precedents all involved absolute prohibitions on private actions associated with marriage. Loving v. Virginia, 388 U. S. 1 (1967), for example, involved a couple who was criminally prosecutedfor marrying in the District of Columbia and cohabiting in Virginia, id., at 2–3. [FN5] They were each sentenced to a year of imprisonment, suspended for a term of 25 years on the condition that they not reenter the Commonwealth together during that time. Id., at 3. [FN6]
[FN5] The suggestion of petitioners and their amici that antimiscegenation laws are akin to laws defining marriage as between one man and one woman is both offensive and inaccurate. "America's earliest laws against interracial sex and marriage were spawned by slavery." P. Pascoe, What Comes Naturally: Miscegenation Law and the Making of Race in America 19 (2009). For instance, Maryland's 1664 law prohibiting marriages between " 'freeborne English women' " and " 'Negro Sla[v]es' " was passed as part of the very act that authorized lifelong slavery in the colony. Id., at 19–20. Virginia's antimiscegenation laws likewise were passed in a 1691 resolution entitled "An act for suppressing outlying Slaves." Act of Apr. 1691, Ch. XVI, 3 Va. Stat. 86 (W. Hening ed. 1823) (reprint 1969) (italics deleted). "It was not until the Civil War threw the future of slavery into doubt that lawyers, legislators, and judges began to develop the elaborate justifications that signified the emergence of miscegenation law and made restrictions on interracial marriage the foundation of post-Civil War white supremacy." Pascoe, supra, at 27–28. Laws defining marriage as between one man and one woman do not share this sordid history. The traditional definition of marriage has prevailed in every society that has recognized marriage throughout history. Brief for Scholars of History and Related Disciplines as Amici Curiae 1. It arose not out of a desire to shore up an invidious institution like slavery, but out of a desire "to increase the likelihood that children will be born and raised in stable and enduring family units by both the mothers and the fathers who brought them into this world." Id., at 8. And it has existed in civilizations containing all manner of views on homosexuality. See Brief for Ryan T. Anderson as Amicus Curiae 11–12 (explaining that several famous ancient Greeks wrote approvingly of the traditional definition of marriage, though same-sex sexual relations were common in Greece at the time).
[FN6] The prohibition extended so far as to forbid even religious ceremonies, thus raising a serious question under the First Amendment's Free Exercise Clause, as at least one amicus brief at the time pointed out. Brief for John J. Russell et al. as Amici Curiae in Loving v. Virginia, O.T. 1966, No. 395, pp. 12–16.
I hope that distinction will suffice. And I trust Justice McDonald can read the Obergefell dissent to learn Justice Thomas's views on Loving.
Second, Loving was premised on both the Equal Protection Clause and the Due Process Clause. Even if you reject substantive due process, you could still find that Loving reached the correct result on the basis of the Equal Protection Clause. After all, the law literally treats people differently on the basis of their race. Two white people can get married, but a white person and a black person cannot. Even the most conservative jurists would deem such a law unconstitutional.
Third, there is an insinuation lurking in the background of the claim: Justice Thomas did not talk about Loving because doing so would undermine his own marriage. Or, stated differently, Justice Thomas cannot be neutral on the topic of interracial marriage, so he simply ignored the case; thus he is a hypocrite. This charge is perhaps the most pernicious. And it is not new. During the Prop 8 litigation, there was an effort to disqualify Judge Vaughn Walker because he was a gay man who was in a long-term relationship with another man. The defenders of Prop 8 claimed that Judge Walker could not possibly handle the case objectively because he stood to benefit personally from a ruling that Prop 8 was unconstitutional. Ultimately, Walker did not recuse. And he based his decision on a long line of cases involving black judges, who likewise refused to recuse in racial discrimination cases. I like to think that Judge Walker, like Justice Thomas, could objectively assess cases that could affect their personal relationships.
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Where da white women at??
God bless and protect the Brother for taking those women off our hands.
Marriage is to promote reproduction. Homosexual maariage will never be more than a friendship.
I would have loved to see Mayor Pete’s face when Chasten Buttigieg told him he was preggers…with twins!!!
The denier lawyer says religious beliefs are defined by the individual, not by a religious authority. The denier lawyer says gender identity is defined by the individual not by biology. The lawyer says judicial review is valid, when Article I Section 1 gives all lawmaking power to the Congress. It goes on and on with this fake occupation.
Cited by Loving: Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival. Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U. S. 535, 316 U. S. 541 (1942).
“Fundamental to our very existence and survival” - implication obvious
So people who are infertile or beyond childbearing age are ineligible to marry?
But they raise children who otherwise would be in a objectively broken foster system.
Black people should not be allowed to marry white people. They aren’t the same genetically and it is as wrong as allowing gays to marry.
Obviously haven't been around any real Afro-Amuricans
it's "Dee", not "Da"
and "Bitches", not "Women"
Frank "Fluent in Jive"
Was June Cleaver in the next seat over? I understand she was fluent in it, too.
Seems like same-sex marriage has the same claim to Equal Protection as different-race marriage.
Thomas mentioned the possibility in his opinion, so I'm not on the Thomas-is-a-hypocrite bandwagon. But so could you have. It seems rather plain.
For $23 you can get your gender switched to non binary in California…how would Alabama handle that if Obergefell is overturned?? Would they check for pee pees and wee wees??
How old are you?
It does indeed, much the same as Obergefell. Obergefell was unfortunately the result of Kennedy’s idiosyncratic approach in gay rights cases of substantive due process/equal protection/dignity jujitsu. It would have been much cleaner had he just went with equal protection.
Granted, Loving wasn’t perfect in this. It also had two paragraphs on SDP, saying the anti miscegenation law violated due process too. But it mostly relied on equal protection. So Kennedy didn’t originate the sin, he just propagated it.
Curiosity question: how did the miscegenation laws handle marriages made outside the state or even country? Suppose a British mixed race couple married in Britain, then moved to Virginia years later.
Same question for multiple wives marriages: how do US courts handle long-married Muslim, err, couples?
And is there a difference between visiting and immigrating?
You want to talk about ANIMUS—the federal government went medieval on the polygamist Mormons…the Romney family was forced into exile due to the feds persecution of Mormons and their deeply held religious beliefs. Don’t hold your breath trying to get any of the conspiracy to take a position on Reynolds though.
No thanks for the non-answer. I know of that kind of persecution. I explicitly asked about visitors and immigrants.
"Laws defining marriage as between one man and one woman do not share this sordid history. The traditional definition of marriage has prevailed in every society that has recognized marriage throughout history." This is obviously false. Polygamy has a long and wide history.
Dude, great freaking point. They just site whatever fits their argument. Normally they would point primarily to colonial and British law then maybe to European examples, but if you go so a field to bring in ancient Greek homosexuality then everything and anything is fair game, and you just show how blatantly selective and biased your views are. Since they are big believers in Judeo-Christian morality it's disingenous to not include Islam as an Abrahamic religion or the fact that there were examples of polygamy in the Hebrew Bible.
It is not false. Polygamy, at least in our history, consists of the same man being simultaneously in several separate marriages, each of which is a partnership between him and only one woman. I am not aware of any society, and certainly not any society that is an ancestor to ours, which recognized the possibility of a marriage with more than two partners.
That is a totally crazy splitting of hairs. Polygamy is not permitted in this country and I know of know conservative who has ever used polygamy as a means of arguing against same sex marriage!
That’s funny because before and since Obergefell was decided “conservatives” frequently trot out bigamy, polygamy, marrying frogs and goats, marrying toasters, etc., as inevitable consequences of recognizing the right of homosexuals to marry.
No you're absolutely right...what I meant to say was the opposite...in response to the hair splitting comment I was trying to say that it hasn't ever been held up as a paragon of heterosexual marriage.
Now you're being dishonest. You are deliberately changing the topic. Thomas wrote that "Laws defining marriage as between one man and one woman do not share this sordid history. The traditional definition of marriage has prevailed in every society that has recognized marriage throughout history." You and jbogart challenged this obvious truth by claiming it is contradicted by the long-standing acceptance of polygamy in most cultures, including some of the ancestors to our own.
The answer is that this is a false contradiction, because polygamy is perfectly consistent with the definition Thomas cited. No society I have ever heard of, and certainly none that is an ancestor of ours, ever recognized a marriage with more than one partner. Each marriage, throughout history, consisted of one man and one woman, no more and no less. But only some cultures required men to be in no more than one such marriage at a time. Ours happens to have that rule, but many significant ancestors to our culture didn't. That didn't and doesn't affect the definition of what a marriage is. Therefore your challenge to Thomas is wrong. QED.
So, how on earth can a person write the line "Even if you reject substantive due process, you could still find that Loving reached the correct result on the basis of the Equal Protection Clause After all, the law literally treats people differently on the basis of their race." and then say that gay marriage is different? How is the ban on acts of homosexuality different from the ban on interracial marriage? Thomas specifically points out that in his opinion the due process clause is read overly broadly by liberals and only requires that state officials follow due process as stipulated under whatever law applies. He relies soley on the Equal Protection Clause to concure with Loving, but says it in no way applies to any other law regarding unenumerated personal freedoms. So we don't applu Equal Protection equally apparently, unless we like the result.
Why weren't straight couples arrested for "sodomy" i.e. oral or anal sex? And how on earth could a libertarian support the idea that neighbors should spy on each other and report them or that police should simply profile gay people? I don't even understand how any of these cases could be brought if the sex was in private. If you believe that sex acts can be criminilized then you beleive in a police state. There is nothing more private than sex (unless you're an exhibitionist).
Just because anti-misegination laws are unbelievably gross, they were in fact supported by the vast majority of white people. And I'm pretty sure that if you were able to get people to give honest answers at least 40%, (maybey more) white people still believe that interracial marriage is undiserable. I would venture that at least 60% of Trump supporters hold that view.
It's pretty bizarre jurisprudence to on the one hand rely on incredibly strict interpretations of the consititution and then also just sort of blithely site general public opinion or personal moral beliefs as important considerations. Also hilarious is the fact that conservatives have a stroke if liberals site current international law in their arguments, but you got Clarence over here sort of off the cuff talking about attitudes towards homosexuality in Greece. Then isn't that a problem for his stance on Lawrence? Just contradiction after contradiction. Come on Clarence keep your arguments straight even if they suck.
How can this be even 10,000 miles near the realm of "Strict Constructionism." I'm sorry, but supposed strict constructionist start with their not entirely bogus close reading of the constitution and relevant historical context and then throw in a selective grab bag of anectodal evidence to butress their arguments. It really does a disservice to the jurisprudence that they claim to adhere to. Why should they bring in arguments out of left field instead of just saying 'here's what I think the constitution says, end of story.'
If you can ban contraception, gay marriage and gay sexual acts, why can't you in Scalia's silly example from the ACA case compel people to eat broccoli. Maybe not that, but it opens the door to an endless series of laws that trample what people innately and intuitively feel are basic rights, whether or not they are enumerated in the consitution. But Isn't that the point of the 9th and to an extent the 10th Amendment? And if choosing between whether the states or the people should retain a given right shouldn't we always try to lean towards the people. How can a libertarian beleive in anything less. And the Enlightenment beliefs of the Founders prioritized the rights of the individual over those of the State. That was kind of the whole point of the revolution wasn't it? Yet jurists like Alito, Thomas and Scalia completely turn this on it's head. And it is noteworthy that they give very little importance to the rights of the accused or the convicted, arguably the most important and consequential intersection between the individual and the State. Particularly galling is their regular refusal to stay executions even when there are substantial irregularities in the trial.
The states are constantly trying to and often succeeding in enacting inumerable superflous, gratutious laws to score political points or grind an idealogical ax. I mean look at Florida. What a shit show! They are in my opinion the prime agents of repression. A perfect historical example of course were the antimiscegenation laws and numerous other racist laws.
Dunked on you.
Peace
Amen.
One could write that line because there are fundamental factual (offspring!) and historical differences between one-man-one-woman marriages and same-sex marriages.
If one's head is screwed on straight, one can make points more succinctly than Stephen Lathrop.
One could write that line because there are fundamental factual (offspring!) and historical differences between one-man-one-woman marriages and same-sex marriages.
Except that laws regarding which men and women could get married in no way required reproduction to even be possible.
Given that the terms "homosexual" and "heterosexual" weren't coined until the late 1800's, and that it was viewed as a perversion or mental illness by the majority of people basically until my lifetime, relying on history to judge LGBTQ+ rights is going to be inherently discriminatory. In general, relying only on history, when history includes the persecution of disfavored minorities, is no way to protect individual rights.
You know, you could say the same of beastiality, say. Or fucking in public in front of children.
Most of the law is just formalizing prejudice, when you get down to it. That's unavoidable, thanks to the "is/ought" problem: Morality isn't objective.
The question here isn't what the law ought to be, that's a value judgement we have legislators to settle, and ballot initiatives. The question here is the process for reaching a particular legal ruleset.
My general position is that the rules should only be changed formally, and when public opinion on some question durably changes, they SHOULD be formally changed to track it.
Because informal processes for changing the rules inevitably concentrate power in a small number of hands. You know, like 5 members of some judicial body? And, there's no particular reason to believe that, once you so concentrate that power, the people who find it in their hands will give a damn about public opinion.
Oh, they might say they do, if they feel a need for excuses. But there's no formal process constraining them to care, like there is with legislators.
So, the rules were made at a time when homosexuality was viewed as a mental illness, not a lifestyle choice? Well, if people have changed their minds about that, you shouldn't have trouble getting the rules changed. If you do have trouble, maybe you're just fooling yourself about public opinion having changed....
Do you think prohibiting those activities doesn't pass EPC muster?
Or that prohibiting interracial marriage does?
if interracial dating had been viewed as a mental illness rather than a threat to white supremacy, would that mean anti-miscegenation laws would not have violated the EPC?
So, the rules were made at a time when homosexuality was viewed as a mental illness, not a lifestyle choice?
What about the fact that it is neither of those?
Most of the law is just formalizing prejudice, when you get down to it. That's unavoidable, thanks to the "is/ought" problem: Morality isn't objective.
This is just throwing up your hands and saying we should forget the whole thing. We should never try and reinterpret how the text of the Constitution applies, because everything is subjective. Once we have one subjective rule in place, we should keep that until we have some large enough supermajority to put in another subjective rule.
That is ridiculous. If the 14th Amendment says that people are entitled to the equal protection of the law, then it is perfectly reasonable to say that it applies to lesbians and gay men the same way that it applies to heterosexual men and women. Why should the fact that people in 1868 wouldn't have interpreted their own words that way stop us from applying them in a perfectly logical manner now?
It's the same bullshit they used to argue that abortion shouldn't be a Constitutional right.
Never mind that up until 100 years ago women weren't considered 'citizens' enough to even vote.
"If you can ban contraception, gay marriage and gay sexual acts, why can't you in Scalia's silly example from the ACA case compel people to eat broccoli."
There's an easy answer here.
The ACA case concerned *federal* power relying on the enumerated power to regulate interstate commerce.
The former 3 concern whether a *state* - not limited to enumerated powers by the U.S. Constitution - has certain powers prohibited by the U.S. Constitution.
The former 3 concern whether a *state* - not limited to enumerated powers by the U.S. Constitution - has certain powers prohibited by the U.S. Constitution.
The end of this sentence is a little confusing, but while states are not limited to specific enumerated powers like the federal government is, states are prohibited from violating individual rights. In my mind, the 14th Amendment should be understood to correct the mistake of not having the Bill of Rights apply to the states from the beginning.
Not just in your mind, it was the stated objective of the amendment, and its immediate application before the Supreme court deliberately messed things up.
You're correct. Shame the SCOTUS did not decide it on that ground.
Might be smart to get Obergefell overturned and replaced with a better reasoned decision.
...or get legislation to make it nationally legal if that is your desire.
I don't think requiring states to recognize a marriage falls within the scope of Congressional power because it isn't a regulation of economic activity nor necessary to insure the viability of broader, permissible regulation.
Being gay is NOT the same as being black you racist POS
Black people should not be allowed to fornicate with white people. How’s that? They are genetically inferior.
So what to make of this:
"...Kevin Merida and Michael Fletcher reported in their 2007 biography, “Supreme Discomfort,” Thomas’s “edgy race consciousness” stood out. When he saw an interracial couple strolling on campus, he’d loudly demand, “Do I see a black woman with a white man? How could that be?” Until 1986, when Thomas met Virginia Lamp, who is white and would become his second wife, he opposed interracial sex and marriage."
Also:
'...His concurrence in Missouri v. Jenkins was “the only opinion,” legal scholar Mark Graber argues, “that questioned whether desegregation was a constitutional value.” If anything, Thomas believes that the state should—where it can, within the law—support the separation of the races.'
Wow!
Great article though:
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/essay/clarence-thomass-radical-vision-of-race
Maybe I'm slow, but I don't see how any of Prof. Blackman's points show that Loving v. Virginia should be exempt from the general complaint against substantive due-process arguments. As I understand it (maybe I'm wrong) the general complaint is: passing a law against something, and having the government enforce that law by denying the people's liberty to do (or obtain, or own, or consume) the something, cannot be the state depriving a person of liberty (or of anything else) WITHOUT due process of law, because the depriving is done WITH due process of the law - specifically, with due process of the law which bans whatever is being banned. For instance, suppose (hypothetical alternate history) there were no Lawrence v. Texas. Suppose Professor Blackman's state has an active anti-sodomy law, and Professor Blackman engages in sodomy anyway, and gets arrested, charged, tried, convicted, and locked up for it (be still, my beating heart!). Then wouldn't he be being deprived of liberty WITH (indeed, BECAUSE OF, or BY MEANS OF) the anti-sodomy law??? Doesn't the due-process clause mean that the government isn't allowed to lock you up (or fine you or kill you) UNLESS there IS a law against what it's depriving you of your liberty to do? So how can any ban violate the due-process clause of 14A? The issuing of the warrant, arrest, trial (or plea), coviction, and punishment are the due process of the ban, and the ban is the law! So it would seem that the due-process clause really can't invalidate any ban at all (although some other clause might invalidate a ban). But if I were right about this, there wouldn't be any substantive due-process protections at all, including, none for Loving v. Virginia.
Can someone explain in simple English what I'm getting wrong about this?
The theory is, the extent of the process that's due is correlated to the extent of the deprivation if life / liberty / property. So the process due to deprive you of $50 is an essentially uncontestable parking ticket. The process due to deprive you of 20 years of freedom is finding you guilty of a felony, with a jury, opportunities for habeas, etc. And the process due to deprive you of some stuff is... nonexistent.
In other words, the point of due process is not to end up like Brazil (the movie, not the country), where the government can justify anything as long as it brings enough bureaucracy to bear. Some things are out of bureaucracy's reach.
When something is completely out of reach of due process, it is said to be "substantive." I actually find the distinction a little annoying. The requirements of due process vary a lot anyway, depending on the degree of deprivation involved. I don't think it's surprising that some things have an effectively insurmountably high bar. That doesn't make the analysis qualitatively different, it just means that the bar is really really high.
Thank you very much! If you don't mind my asking - don't take it personally - is that a general-consensus explanation and definition, or is it just your personal take? Are you a lawyer, or just a (more or less) ordinary person trying to understand ideas outside of bailiwick, like me? Or something in between?
(And yes, Brazil was amazing and terrifying. I was depressed for a week after I first saw it, in an actual cinema. I found it more off-putting than A Clockwork Orange, almost as off-putting as Pink Flamingos. Oh, and then the waitress at the Mexican restaurant we went to afterwards refused to serve me sangria, because I had left my ID at home, even though I was very obviously (I thought) old enough. I even showed her my certificate of having completed a bartending course at a local university, but that wasn't enough for her; she needed to see a driver's license or equivalent. The kind of thing which would happen in, well, a movie like Brazil.)
Absolutely just my personal take!
OH, and how would your explanation apply to Loving v. Virginia? Did the law prescribe some disproportionate, Torquemadan penalty for marrying out-of-race, or what?
No, it prohibited marrying out of race. That was itself the deprivation if liberty.
Thomas outright rejected the substantive component of due process in his Dobbs concurrence. Moreover in his Obergefell dissent, he begins by rejecting substantive due process. The rest of the dissent, including the part quoted by Blackman, only assumes for the sake of argument substantive due process is valid. And even under that assumption, Blackman's quote shows that Thomas primarily distinguished Loving from Obergefell because the former included punishment while the latter did not. that is, Thomas might conclude Due Process doesn't prevent a state from withholding recognition of interracial marriages.
Yes, Thomas believes that nothing is out of reach of bureaucracy. I wonder what he thinks of Brazil. He's probably envious of Tuttle's death-by-paperwork.
But that's completely besides the point because Thomas specifically disqualifies applying due process argument to any law which bans something that isn't otherwise expressly permitted under the constitution such as in the 1st and 2nd Amendment. He instead relies on the Equal Protection clause in Loving but refuses to apply to Lawrence or Obergefell though any reasonable reading requires it to be applied across the board. My guess he's relying on the "originalism" of the fact that the historical context is regarding race. But then of course no law that protects women from gender bias would be allowed. And even more problematically the conservatives have fallaciously used the 14th Amendment to assert corporate personhood regardless of the fact that nothing of the sort appears in the text and the framer of that amendment was completely lying when he said he meant it to apply to corporations many years later. It's the most tenous of threads. If he meant it he would have written it in the text. At the very least there would some contemporaneous record, which there isn't. And the context of the 13-15 Amendments was certainly not about corporations. It's just another of god knows how many examples of how the Originalists pull notions out of the ether to justify interpretations that may or may not stand on their own merits. As I've said sometimes it just seems completely pointless to add a bunch of anecdotes. Sometimes it is important to bring in historical context where there may not be enough clarity but sometimes it's just a pathetic smokescreen to enact a political agenda. At least liberals are upfront and say, "yeah, we want to expand the meaning and protections of the constitution, deal with it." Meanwhile conservatives maintain the canard that they aren't legislating from the bench. That has been put to rest by the newly aggressive almost unhinged approach since getting 6-3.
I think that Lawrence should rest equally on the 4th Amendment. What probable cause is there to bust into someone's home and arrest them for sex. In the Lawrence case the police recieved a call about a weapon in the apartment. But wait, what's wrong with that? A weapon in your own home? As far as I can tell there wasn't a warrant either.
Think about this as well, given that this is a libertarian magazine, I find it hard to believe that they aren't as passionate about a right to privacy as liberals are. I think you can construe a disdain for regulations as arising out of said right. It just seems a fundamental part of the libertarian ethos to want to be left alone. It seems that libertarians and civil libertarians should be squarely on the same side of that one.
For sure, originalism is a total* scam. I think that's becoming obvious, and will even more so as we start to apply these new "history and tradition" tests all over the place. There's been a new dubious "history and tradition" test every day for the last three days I think.
* Where an individual word or phrase had a different definition at the time it was written than it does now, we should for sure use the original meaning. That is, original definitions yay, original interpretations nay.
You're confusing what has been called procedural due process with substantive due process. Your post relates to the former. The substantive due process argument is that we are deprived of our freedom to engage in sodomy regardless of any legal procedures ... even if we get a fair trial (procedurally), we are still deprived of our fundamental right to engage in the activity in the first place.
But Thomas argues that none of the privacy rights fall under the due process clause but he singles out Loving as falling under equal protection while not affording that reading to any other type of discrimination, hence only looking out for his own marriage, that as younger mna he intensely dissaproved of.
"Maybe I'm slow"
Self awareness is the first step to wisdom.
Well, unless you're getting old, in which case it's just due notice that you're losing it.
I am getting old; I've almost reached my barrier;
What used to be my magic wand is just my water-carrier.
So one can't help conclude that before he met Ginnie he would have objected to the the Loving ruling regardless if it's origins in slavery.
How can one not conclude that he is making up the law to suit his personal circumstances. One need merely to look at his refusals to recuse in cases that he has a personal interest in.
Also interesting is that at least in his not too distant past he has opined that racism is fundamental to life, and to every white person, a sort of Nation of Islam approach. Yet he makes the exception for Ginnie, who one would hope isn't a racist, though her
In Thomas's youth he was fervently against the races mixing.
He turned toward the right and various things happened, in his mind and in the minds of others, particularly conservative women.
Or maybe, there were hardly any black women who would be involved with a man who had developed such views. Marriages are between people who find each other in the available "marketplace". E.g., in a small-town college, out of convenience and common mindsets, faculty tend to marry other faculty. Nothing wrong with that.
"Or maybe, there were hardly any black women who would be involved with a man who had developed such views. "
[Hey sarcasto, telepathy alert!]
Listen capt, I know you've never felt the tender touch of a woman, but no need to project your problems on others.
Glad to see you adopting some of the problems I have with your arguments and reapplying them.
Quite flattering as to your views on the the validity of my concerns!
Just giving you a chance to be consistent. Failed as usual.
You treat every assertion of bias by liberals as being "telepathy". No amount of evidence is enough, its all "nutpicking".
Username checks out.
I’ll have you know I was in bed with women of my own race as recently as 1984! So there!!
Evidence?
OK, but Thomas Jefferson's been dead almost 200 years.
He married Virginia Lamp, but didn't have children with her. You can oppose producing interracial children without opposing the relationships.
I like how Justice Thomas just arbitrarily picks points in history to back up his position.
Hetero marriage - OK since it's been around forever
Mixed race marriage - OK since it was only banned for several hundred years
Homo marriage - not OK because, um, he doesn't give a reason
Also, Prof. Blackman....
"Second, Loving was premised on both the Equal Protection Clause and the Due Process Clause."
Obergefell was ALSO decided based on the Equal Protection and the Due Process Clauses.
"The Court held that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment guarantees the right to marry as one of the fundamental liberties it protects, and that analysis applies to same-sex couples in the same manner as it does to opposite-sex couples.
The Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment also guarantees the right of same-sex couples to marry as the denial of that right would deny same-sex couples equal protection under the law."
(oyez)
And finally....
"Third, there is an insinuation lurking in the background of the claim: Justice Thomas did not talk about Loving because doing so would undermine his own marriage."
You don't refute this claim; you just end up saying, "Gee I hope Justice Thomas will objectively assess cases that could affect his personal relationships."
THAT'S your argument?!?
Very good comment. Wish I'd read it before I posted my somewhat overlapping opinion below.
Well Opinions are like Assholes, where ever you go, there's always another one around
" like how Justice Thomas just arbitrarily picks points in history to back up his position"
I see many examples of that from both decision and dissent
Like how he relentlessly cites to his own dissents as dispositive authority?
Totally true, and why originalism is just cover for judicial activism.
It is hard to imagine a white judge with Thomas's ideas coming down on the correct side of Loving. Thomas will grab onto anything he can find to avoid declaring his own marriage invalid.
The analogy to Walker is false because 1) Walker was not in a marriage that would be declared invalid and 2) declaring gay marriage legal was in line with his previous jurisprudence.
It is not "pernicious" to point this out. What is pernicious are the effects of Thomas's ideas, if carried out by the Court.
I'd like to point out that imagination varies from person to person. It's hard for you to imagine a white judge with Thomas's ideas coming down on the correct side of Loving.
But that doesn't tell us about Thomas. It tells us about you.
It's hard for you also. Where's the Equal Protection argument on Loving? Black people couldn't marry white people and white people couldn't marry black people. The races were being treated equally. The same with gay marriage. Everyone was unable to marry someone of the same gender.
How can someone hold that Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell were wrongly decided, and yet hold that Loving was correct? Explain.
Yep, the author just glossed over that equal protection illogic with his second point ...
You write this despite my repeatedly pointing out that overturning laws against interracial marriage was an expected result of the 14th amendment, and such laws were falling like tenpins until Pace? It's not hard at all for me to imagine an amendment being applied in exactly the manner it was expected to be applied, and was applied until the Supreme court decided to screw things up.
So, Loving had expected application on its side, it was just the Court cleaning up a mess of its own creation. Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell did NOT have expected application on their side, in fact, I think we can be darned confident that, if people had thought the 14th amendment had any such implications, it would have been rewritten.
So it’s an issue for the states to decide via their own legislative processes, except when it isn’t.
Yes, it's an issue for states to decide via their own legislative processes, except when some constitutional clause takes it out of that domain. And you don't get to invent totally out of the blue implications of amendments a century or more after they're adopted, that's not originalism.
Pretending I didn't make a point isn't a particularly clever way to respond to a point, but you keep doing it.
Scalia used to say this all the time. The default Constitutional rule is that the majority decides what's right through the legislative process, subject to the Equal Protection Clause. Then particular clauses limit the power of the legislature (or Congress).
Black people are inferior!!!!
We can’t marry dogs! Why should black men be allowed to marry white women! They are genetically inferior and the races should not mix. This is all about opinions on who should have equal rights! Just because I fall in love with my dog doesn’t mean I should be allowed to marry it.
That's a really good point. If you are going to throw one out you have to throw them all out. It's further evidence that Thomas' thought process is fatally flawed in it's contradictions. To assume it has to do with his own marriage is simply an example of Occam's razor.
No, you don't have to throw them both out. Read Loving and then read Obergefell. The main part of Loving is Equal Protection. SDP is added in as an afterthought. You could excise that whole seciton and it would be a perfectly logical and valid opinion.
Obergefell, OTOH, intertwines the two, and at least on its face, if you get rid of SDP, then the other side loses. Perhaps a less muddled justice than Kennedy could come up with a pure Equal Protection argument to uphold the result (but not the reasoning) of Obergefell. I think Gorsuch would go there if the issue came up.
But don't pretend the two are the same. Not by a long shot.
"Where's the Equal Protection argument on Loving? "
Why don't you read the opinion and learn for yourself. https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/388/1/#tab-opinion-1946731
The anti-miscegenation laws were based in white supremacy -- and the Virginia Supreme Court all but said so in upholding the law. The laws were structrured such that their purpose was to avoid polluting the white race with non-white blood. If someone was of mixed race, or indeed had any non-white blood, he or she was treated as non-white, and was free to marry a non-white person, but not a white person. A more blatant violation of Equal Protection is hard to imagine.
Not to mention that the dissent of the first Justice Harlan in Plessy v. Ferguson should be regarded as the correct historical reading of the 14th Amendment. Which means that any public law cognizance of race is forbidden, period. Look it up, I cannot put two links in one post.
You have more or less restated Thomas' footnote 5 in his Obergefell dissent (quoted by Blackman in the OP). In that footnote Thomas calls comparing antimiscegenation laws to DOMAs as offensive because the former is based on a history of white supremacy while the latter is based on a history of the desire to have children raised by their biological parents. That argument is very weak because it ignores the animus DOMAs have towards gays.
No, I don't agree. The laws at issue in Loving were part of an overall scheme to keep blacks inferior, which is the very thing the the EPC was meant to undo.
DOMA's merely kept the status quo that marriage is between a man and a woman. And, given that at the time of the EPC was passed, sodomy was a crime in most states and no one thought the EPC had any impact on that, the application of the EPC to SSM is very dubious.
I can't say if that is what Thomas meant or not. But in my mind, Loving and Obergefell are very different, and one can easily sustain the former without the latter.
This is rich. So you are saying DOMAs are in not an "overall scheme to keep [homosexuals] inferior" AND that the "status quo" marriage between men and women only is not part of an "overall scheme to keep [homosexuals] inferior?"
If you think that homosexuals were inferior prior to Obergefell, or even Lawrence, you have a warped sense of what inferior means.
Anti-miscegenation laws in the South were part of Jim Crow, which was meant to keep blacks as inferior, third-class citizens. The prior law as to homosexuals was light years away from that.
So the answer to your quesiton is, yes, that is what I am saying.
And I note you do not address the second half of my post. Which, I admit, would require overturning not just Obergefell but also Lawrence.
Sure you can. And in so-doing, you'll advertise that you're a sophistic hypocrite.
The only problem arises is if you don't want to be a sophistic hypocrite, but don't want to abandon your hypocritical positions. But sadly, that is not a reconcilable desire.
Thanks for your empty ad hominem. Let me know when you have something of substance to add.
But, for what purpose? To further the desire to have children raised by their biological parents? I think not.
I agree that in 1868 homosexual behavior was widely considered immoral. But, that strikes me as animus towards gays as a class. So, are you then arguing that animus towards gays as a class is a permissible originalist justification for DOMAs and for anti-homosexual sodomy laws as well?
This is the same argument as in Bostock v. Clayton County: Lenny (a white man) who marries Sally (a white woman) is not punished, but Carl (a black man) who marries Sally is. The sole difference in their treatment is their race.
To the extent that these decisions were based on SDP, there's no contradiction between those two positions. But to the extent that Lawrence and Obergefell were based on equal protection, they'd be rightly decided.
Has somebody put out a PR hit order on Thomas? I notice they're going after him hammer and tongs all over the place on the internet, and some of the hit pieces are positively silly. (Who wasn't aware that Thomas' views concerning libel pre-date the Trump administration?)
And why Thomas, specifically? He wasn't even the lead on Dobbs.
Racists gonna racist.
Prolly because of his post comments about SSM and contraception rights.
The Opinions he shared with Barack America until Sleepy got him to change his mind in 2012?
I know it was eons ago, but in 2008 Barack America was the one against SSM, while McCain was for it.
Facts are terrible things, especially the "True" ones
sorry but what is SSM
Same Sex Marriage, retard
Simple Sado-Masochism
And some of those facts are that the LGBT community was furious with Obama from 2009 onward when he refused to take up LGBT issues, had his DOJ defend DADT and DOMA, and so-on. His and Biden's reversal in 2012 was a direct result of years of political
pressure on him.
Thomas, on the other hand, has put himself on the side of sodomy laws since 2003, has periodically reiterated that he was still in favor of sodomy laws, and then last week publicly said "you know what we should bring back? Sodomy laws."
But sure, totally the same.
The bad press started with the ongoing revelations about how deep his wife was in some of the wackiest of attempts to subvert democracy, and the fact that Thomas didn't recuse himself.
Then Thomas' tone-deaf public appearance where, in tribalistic and somewhat Trumpian fashion, he derided those who may disagree with Dobbs and other decisions and instructed them to get over it, accept that they lost.
Then there was the NY gun decision, with its warped reliance on his cherry-picked history as the sole judge of whether a gun regulation can stand.
In other words, he's brought the stinging PR on himself ...
I could see them attacking him over a gun decision he authored himself, but the attacks all seem Dobbs related. It seems they're mad at him because he's a black man off the Democratic plantation.
It seems they're mad at him because he's a black man off the Democratic plantation.
As usual your telepathy sure does paint those liberals as baddies!
It does seem to be race related in Thomas' case.
Justice Thomas singled out for racist slurs after Roe v. Wade overturned
Nutpicking.
"As usual your telepathy sure does paint those liberals as baddies!"
Let's completely ignore 30 years of hatred!! Its telepathy.
Thomas didn't even write Dobbs but he is getting like 90% of the blowback.
He has a pretty spicy concurrence in Dobbs, but you know that.
Thomas has some really extreme views. Of course lots of partisans hate him.
The idea that it's all racial is unsupported.
Except for the racial slurs and aspersions, of course.
"The idea that it's all racial is unsupported."
Hillary just called him an angry black man. Not a racial stereotype, nope
"Uncle Clarence" is a reference to his large family as well.
Hillary Rodman's improving, at least she didn't call him a "Predator"
It is not all racial, but as you implicitly concede, much of it is racial. How much blowback has Alito, the author of Dobbs been getting as compared to Thomas?
The dude doubled-down on wanting to make me a criminal in Texas. Unless you're trying to argue that he's an anti-gay bigot because he's Black, his race is irrelevant.
Apparently so did the Texas Legislature and Governor who passed and signed the law you were violating.
And actually he does not want to make it criminal. He said in his opinion that he viewed it as a remarkable silly law which he would not vote for. He also said that it was up to the Legislature of each state, in that case Texas, to decide.
That's the thing that keeps getting lost. A law can be stupid or unfair and still Constitutional. The Constitution only has some limitations on majority power. To say otherwise turns us into a judge-ocracy.
Guess what, after Dobbs, abortion will still be legal in a lot of the country. Despite the NY Times lying about that very fact.
How many other scenarios exist where you think that would be convincing?
"I don't want to punch you, I just want to swing my fist."
"But I'm standing right here, where your fist will swing."
"Yes."
"And you didn't want to swing your fist until I stood here."
"Also correct."
"In fact, if you could swing your fist without hitting me, you wouldn't want to swing your fist."
"Still correct."
"So you want to punch me."
"No, I just want to swing my fist."
Seems like you have a personal stake in this, and are not rational.
Thomas has no ability to take a swing here. He is not a legislator. He can rule anything he can get four other justices to agree to, but that will make nothing illegal anywhere.
Liberty for me but not for thee...
Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
Well put. Is this original?
No, it's a widespread slander.
“Ladies and gentlemen, living caricature Brett Bellmore!”
Brett, lets look at the rule of law - the law as you are SURE everyone kinda knows it must be:
Sure does protect conservative voices and allow, if not mandate, a lot of their preferred policies! Nice small regulatory powers allowing the well-off to play around, with platforms like twitter mandating their speech be carried, and their money flowing to politicians without restriction. And lots of guns!
But it sure does bind illegals, and institutions wanting to single out outgroups like minorities for help, and institutions wanting to dissociate from certain points of view.
One need only look at how you are outraged by BLM's protests getting protected as proof riots are being allowed, while the law attempting to bind the on-camera violence of Jan 06 is an outrage.
You may not realize your formalistic takes instantiate this conservative paradigm, but they absolutely do.
And before you try and turn it around, no, conservative straight white men are not an outgroup. They're doing fucking *great* lately.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_M._Wilhoit
So you haven't noticed the woke desire to punish/ostracize bigots? Everyone wants to establish an in-group and marginalize the out-group, because "we" are virtuous and "they" are deviants.
As I keep saying, the people who claim to be all about tolerance most definitely are not. This is not a defense of anyone else, just an observation that the abused are eager to become the abuser.
Bigoted people: not exactly an out-group by your very own admission.
Clever but false.
On your first point, the footnotes quoted from Obergefell dissent appear to explain that interracial marriage bans are different than gay marriage bans because the former has a sordid history dating back to the 1600s and grounded in slavery. Isn't this a distinction without a legal difference? In fact, under the recent reasoning of Thomas and Alito, doesn't Thomas' recited history show that interracial marriage bans are deeply rooted in our nation's history and traditions, such that the constitution would need to be explicit to overcome these long-standing bans?
It doesn't, because it was never the case that all states banned it. It was really only banned in connection with slavery, meaning that, rather than being deeply rooted in our history and traditions, it was deeply rooted in slavery.
The relation to slavery made it perfectly sensible for the bans to fall when slavery was abolished.
While it's not so much a case of gay marriage being banned, as it not even being a concept until very recently; Opposite sex was a part of the definition of "marriage" as people understood it, a "gay marriage" was a contradictory concept, like dry water.
Basically, the courts took "marriage" and redefined it to mean something it hadn't previously meant.
It's completely irrelevant that not every state banned it. It was banned in 16 states which is a lot and would in the strange originalist conception mean that it was a long standing and accepted tradition. Also if you're going to bring in the Greeks, you need to bring in the fact that most white Americans were against it and it was very hard to get a church to marry you. It was justified by verses in the Bible. Taking these all together you have a perfect originalist stew. The fact that this argument is obviously ridiculous and shouldn't have any bearing on whether or not to allow interacial marriage shows how the originalist so often practice pretzel logic.
A lot more than 16 states banned interracial marriage. As of 1868, when the 14th Amendment was adopted, either 35 or 36 states/territories banned it (Washington repealed its ban that same year).
https://sharetngov.tnsosfiles.com/tsla/exhibits/blackhistory/pdfs/Miscegenation%20laws.pdf
Setting territories aside, 37 states had been admitted to the Union by 1868. 26 of them, by my count, banned interracial marriage. That's quite similar to the number of states that didn't permit abortion at the time. Yes, I'm aware that the one analysis is conducted under SDP and the other under EP (I disagree that there's no EP argument as to abortion); so what? Why should the historical understanding of DP matter but the historical understanding of EP not matter?
The relation to slavery made it perfectly sensible for the bans to fall when slavery was abolished.
They didn't fall then. They stayed in place for a century thereafter until Loving was decided. The people who adopted the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868 apparently didn't see a problem with maintaining bans on interracial marriage, because 26 states had those bans. 10 of them discarded them at various points over the next century, but it's simply false that everyone looked around after the Civil War and said "oh, I guess these things have to go."
Were they the product of slavery/racism? Of course. Should they have fallen immediately? Of course. But they didn't, and under the Dobbs analysis, their impropriety is not deeply rooted, etc.
So what you're saying is that long-standing tradition held that banning miscegenation was a right reserved to the states, and not a federal issue.
I mean, back in the mid-1800s you could joke about a man being the wife of another man, and everyone know what you were talking about. In fact, this happened to a sitting president.
Which is to say... you're confusing contradictory with "disfavored". People understood the idea of two men being married just fine. They just didn't like it.
On your second point, the fact that Loving was decided on both due process and equal protection grounds does not distinguish it from Obergefell, as Obergefell too was based on both provisions.
On your third point, it is easy to knock over a straw man. I have yet to hear anyone argue that Thomas should recuse himself from racial discrimination cases ... I think you're just making this argument up so you can knock it over.
“See, Obergefell’s song goes ‘ding ding ding dingading ding.’ Loving’s goes ‘ding ding ding dingading ding DA ding ding ding dingading ding.’ Totally different.”
This analysis is just terrible
#3 isn't "lurking in the background of the claim." It IS the claim. It is always the claim by Thomas' political opponents. Everything else is window dressing.
"defenders of Prop 8 claimed that Judge Walker could not possibly handle the case objectively because he stood to benefit personally"
Then he proved them right.
It wasn't so much that he stood to benefit, but the fact that he and people like him are mentally ill. But mentally ill people never see themselves that way.
They don't see anything sick or off about the disgusting things they do to each other.
Sure. We all understand that Thomas is terribly offended by being compared to dirty gays.
His offense, however, does not translate to a persuasive legal argument, and neither does yours.
He is either a hypocrite in how he fails to apply the standards he espouses, or he is a liar and doesn't actually believe in them.
So basically, Thomas cherry-picks his support... If two people can't get married because of 'slavery laws'... That's bad! Bad! Bad!.. and clearly unconstitutional... But if two people can't get married because of a dusty 2000-year-old collection of tales told by a bunch of Nomads in a country far away, then .. Yeah! That's OK.. and constitutional... What a load of hog-wash. THIS is why we have a separation of Church and State.. Thomas should go!
Your theory that anti-miscegenation laws were purely a holdover from slavery is not quite true. Seven states applied their prohibitions to people of Asian descent: Arizona, California, Mississippi, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Utah. Some in the Southwest probably also targeted interracial marriages with Latinos as well.
You can "....like to think that Judge Walker, like Justice Thomas, could objectively assess cases that could affect their personal relationships." But you would be wrong......despite the hope. See Thinking Fast and Slow, Kahneman.
I see this differently than Blackman. Some legal rights are so basic and so in need of vindication that legalisms to deny them finally become self parodic, the province of the stodgy without the psychological wherewithal to keep their predilections to themselves. That’s Scalia’s dissent in Lawrence, inveighing against the legal vindication of gay sex. In comparison, Kennedy’s words in Casey about each individual’s mystery and his or her self definition ring as profound, eloquent and enduring wisdom.