The Volokh Conspiracy
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Why Protect Religious Conscience?
Here, I will take a step back from my prior post, and address a much broader question: why should society provide special protections for religious conscience, as opposed to secular beliefs? For example, why should the state exempt from mandatory military service a religious person who adheres to a Pacifist faith, but not exempt a non-religious person who holds a Pacifist philosophy? Why does religion get preferential treatment, but philosophy does not? This question predates Fulton or RFRA or Smith or Sherbert or even the Free Exercise Clause. Why is religion special--so special, that it requires exemptions from civil laws?
To be sure, people today and in the past argue that religion is not special, and that it ought not receive any special protections. Religious groups, they contend, should be treated like any other faction--political, social, or philosophical. But under the contrary view, religious groups do stand in a different position than those who hold beliefs based on politics, social theory, or philosophy. Consider a hypothetical. Person A refuses to work on Saturday because that is the day she volunteers at a homeless shelter to feed the poor. That work is very meaningful to her on a moral level, but it is no way required, or even encouraged by religion. Person B follows a faith that prohibits working on Saturday, the Sabbath. Now, the state denies both people unemployment benefits because of their unwillingness to work on Saturday.
This hypothetical, of course, is based on the facts of Sherbert v. Verner. And in Sherbert, Person B was granted an exemption. But I doubt under the reasoning of Sherbert that Person A would have received an exemption. Why? Because Person B faced an intractable choice between violating her faith or violating civil law. Person A, by contrast, only faced a choice between violating her personal preferences or violating civil law. Sherbert v. Verner recognized Person B's dilemma. Justice Brennan wrote that South Carolina's policy "forces [the Seventh-day Adventist] to choose between following the precepts of her religion and forfeiting benefits, on the one hand, and abandoning one of the precepts of her religion in order to accept work, on the other hand." Sherbert faced a conflict between Church and State. The State told her to work on the Sabbath, her Church said she could not.
Underlying Brennan's opinion is an important, but seldom-recognized principle: society provides protections for religious conscience to alleviate people from having to make this choice. The government should not force them to choose between God and Country, because for many believers, the former will often prevail. Indeed, throughout history, many martyrs have faced death rather than follow the government over their faith. Others have practiced their faith in secret to avoid conforming to the state's orthodoxies. By contrast, Person A, who follows her own beliefs, without regard to some higher power, stands in a different position. We all should develop our own moral, philosophical, and political beliefs. But if we are forced to choose between our own morality and the state, the sort of conflict that faced Sherbert and others simply is not present.
This background, I think, illustrates the basis of my thinking on a Jewish right to abortion. Even assuming that Jewish law requires an abortion in certain circumstances (my colleagues Howie Slugh and Tal Fortgang address this point), as a matter of first principles, society ought to provide an exemption for those who actually face that intractable choice between a higher power and civil law. Those who do not actually think a higher power imposes some obligations on their lives--that religion is only internal, aspirational, cultural, or traditional--do not fit within the paradigm that has historically justified granting exemptions from civil laws.
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Does that require the state to determine what is or is not an obligation for an adherent of a particular religion?
For example, if some Jewish authorities maintain that a Jew is required to get an abortion under some circumstances, and other Jewish authorities do not, does the court need to decide which authorities to accept?
As a further question -,imagine a religion like the Society of Friends - which recognizes no authority higher than the Inward Christ - an individual Friend’s understanding of what God wants of them.
Are these substantive objections?
Which Jewish authority does the particular Jew follow?
Of course, religion is 10 times more effective than the law at persuading people to be nice to each other. Although an atheist, I am with Weber. I do not bash religion, I respect it. Religious societies are more prosperous. Compare the more secular societies of Europe, where they live like animals.
The Pyramids, religious monuments, continue to bring $5 billion into Egypt, being a great human accomplishment.
Before the scumbag, traitor lawyer gets huffy about religion, it should remember a few things. It plagiarized and misrepresented the Medieval catechism. God can read minds and intent. God can predict accidents and prevent them. He sent his Son as an exemplar of behavior. That is the faith of the Church. They say it is their faith. The lawyer dumbass believes man can do all that, and that a fictitious character should set standards of conduct. Nothing comes close to the stupidity of the lawyer profession.
Before saying something about other people's religions, try cleaning up your idiotic profession of religious beliefs. Your profession is an empirical practice. Stop your supernatural bullshit. It is a factor in why you stink so badly.
One wonders if religious authority should be required for any claim. For example, all mainstream religions have endorsed the COVID vaccine. If someone claims a religious exemption, should an authority in that religion support that claim?
Why protect it? Because it's threatened.
So are American democracy and the right to an abortion.
Martineed "So are American democracy and the right to an abortion."
Abortion should be decided through the democratic process in a democracy ! not by judicial fiat - See Alito's leaked draft opinion in Dobbs
I think his point was more about how circular 'protect the thing because it's threatened' is.
LOL
What exactly is “American democracy” other than the legalization of plunder?
I know this will come as a shock to those who think of voting as some sort of sacrosanct act, but it is a terrible means of protecting liberty. In fact, democracy and liberty are, in function, almost always at odds.
There are few more dangerous errors in political thinking than to equate democracy with liberty. Unfortunately, this is one of the most widespread errors in America and a key reason why there are few leashes left on government power.
Throughout Western history, tyrants and tyrant apologists have sought to browbeat citizens into obedience by telling them that they are only obeying themselves. Invoking “the government is the people” is one of the easiest ways for a politician to shirk responsibility for his actions. This doctrine makes sense only if one assumes that government’s victims are subconscious masochists and government is only fulfilling their secret wishes when it messes up their lives.
Is a citizen governing herself when she is arrested for possessing a handgun in her own home for self-defense in a crime-ridden District of Columbia neighborhood where police long since ceased providing minimum protection? Is a 20-year-old citizen governing himself when he is arrested in his own home by police for drinking a beer? The fact that a majority—or, more likely, a majority of the minority who bothered to vote—may have sanctioned such laws and government powers has nothing to do with the self-government by each citizen of his own life.
What are the mechanics by which majority-mandated shackles liberate the individual? How does a shackle supported by 51 percent of the populace affect an individual differently from one endorsed by a mere 49 percent? Is the secret to democracy some law of inverse political gravity—so that the more people who support imposing a shackle, the less it weighs? Are citizens obliged to pretend that any restriction favored by the majority is not a restraint but instead a badge of freedom? Shackles are shackles are shackles, regardless of what rhetorical holy water they are blessed with.
The fiction of majority rule has become a license to impose nearly unlimited controls on the majority and everybody else. The doctrine of “majority rule equals freedom” is custom-made to turn mobs of voters into spoiled children with a divine right to plunder the candy store. The only way to equate submission to majority-sanctioned decrees with individual freedom is to assume that individuals have no right to live in any way that displeases the majority.
“Whenever majority rule is unnecessarily substituted for individual choice, democracy is in conflict with individual freedom,” wrote Italian professor Bruno Leoni in his 1961 classic, Freedom and the Law.
Not sure if anarchist of monarchist.
Either way, you're not shocking, you're just bad.
Ahh, so I am bad because I criticize a terrible mean of governing? Interesting. It always makes me curious to know how one becomes a bad person in the eyes of others. Apparently in your eyes, a defense of liberty makes one a bad person.
As for your two options, anarchism or hereditary monarchism are both preferable to majoritarianism. But anarchism is the obvious alternative to the use of force and coercion to enforce compliance with the desires of a political majority or even a monarchy.
What did you expect from a leftist / statist?
American Democracy is the Federal Class lording and ruling over the working classes in a two-class system. Rich Federal Bureaucrat Lords and Ladies and poor masses who serve them.
The Federals are not redeemable and there is literally nothing in DC and it’s elite wealthy suburbs worth saving.
Yes, rule by Randian God-King would be superior to democracy, sure. But the real world alternative to democracy is not individual choice; it's dictatorship.
What's the difference between a dictatorship and a bureaucracy filled with unelected, unaccountable, and unfireable Federals with lawmaking powers deciding anything from how much rain I can collect or how much water I can shit in?
David, you are a lawyer, and naturally, a Democrat. You are defending the rent. It is just armed robbery. Everything you earned has been theft. You charge fees, and produce nothing of value whatsoever. In fact, your output is scorching and toxic to our economy, and to our nation. Every year you live, you destroy $10 million in value.
How grossly naive and wrong can someone be? The alternative to majority tyranny is unitary tyranny? Is that all there is: tyranny by the one vs tyranny of the many?
Thank you, I couldn't have said it better.
Religion is threatened.
By reason.
By education.
By science.
By progress and modernity.
By the reality-based world.
This is as it should be.
Despite stale, undeserved, special privilege, organized religion is fading in America, particularly in strong, educated, successful, educated communities.
This also is as it should be.
So if I can convince myself that my wish not to work on Saturdays is somehow magic, that should be given special protection by society in a way that someone else's wish not to work on Saturdays isn't? I mean, the human mind is a wonderful thing, and there's almost no limit to what people can convince themselves of when given an incentive to, but I don't see why we should encourage such creativity.
Underlying Brennan's opinion is an important, but seldom-recognized principle: society provides protections for religious conscience to alleviate people from having to make this choice. The government should not force them to choose between God and Country, because for many believers, the former will often prevail. Indeed, throughout history, many martyrs have faced death rather than follow the government over their faith. Others have practiced their faith in secret to avoid conforming to the state's orthodoxies. By contrast, Person A, who follows her own beliefs, without regard to some higher power, stands in a different position. We all should develop our own moral, philosophical, and political beliefs. But if we are forced to choose between our own morality and the state, the sort of conflict that faced Sherbert and others simply is not present.
That is not the promised explanation. That is question begging at length. Anyone at liberty to argue that way can argue thus: I prefer a secular state, as guaranteed by the establishment clause. Religionists must conform their legal practices to that preference, lest my secularism suffer an unresolvable crisis.
No, it's an explanation. It's an empirical one rather than one derived from first principles, but it's an explanation. The founders singled out religion for protection because people actually did think religion was more important, and were willing to fight for that, literally as well as figuratively. So the government simply had no choice but to acknowledge it to preserve order without being tyrannical.
Sure, but we were promised a better explanation than "because the Founding Fathers [pbut] said so".
The founders singled out religion for protection because people actually did think religion was more important, and were willing to fight for that, literally as well as figuratively.
More important than what? More important than now? That sounds to me like some pretty sketchy history, but maybe you can pick one of those questions, or substitute your own, and fill in some historical confirmation. My own impression of the founding era is that it was perhaps the least religious era in American history between 1607 and the present. To show it, however, I would have to take account of regional differences, denominational tendencies, and other stuff. It would be a big job. I don't recall much overtly religious fighting during the founding era.
Exactly. The one thing the Americans *didn't* go to war over is religion, even before the constitution. Taxes, sure. Stealing other people's land, definitely. But religion? No.
If philosophy lead to megadeaths, perhaps, then it could be invited to sit at the detente round table of Camelot, along with religion.
Oh wait. The past century involves decamegadeaths from such things.
So invite philosophy to sit at thay round table.
Which implies philosophies also must suffer separation of philosophy and state, and philosophers may not use the mechanisms of government to force their philosophy on everyone.
Politics and religion are not just similar phenomena that you don't talk about at polite cocktail parties. They are the exact same phenomenon, with a few words difference. Both seek many followers so they can seize control and force themselves on everyone who doesn't think it's a cool idea.
And their mandates should be treated the same: banned from government control. Sorry, asshole priests of philosophy. AKA politicians.
So sure. I am very in favor of this proposal!
What!? Why can't an atheist sincerely and faithfully believe that morality requires/obligates them to do something that conflicts with the law in the same way or degree a religious person can? There have been plenty of martyrs who sacrificed or risked their life based on their non-religious moral beliefs, if that's your only criteria or preferred evidence? (As a side note, is your use of "higher-power" a proxy for any religious authority/force or do you mean to exclude religions that do not incorporate a higher power as opposed to some other source of obligations?)
Superstitious people think they are special.
And they are.
Especially gullible.
Other than that — gullible enough to believe silly fairy tales, or disingenuous enough to assert they believe something they do not — there is nothing special about them. They claim to be more moral, better behaved, etc., but that is just more bullshit to be swallowed by children of all ages.
I guess it's refreshing that you realize that your hypocrisy is so blatant that an effort to justify it is in order, but this is a pretty pathetic effort in that regard.
This doesn't answer the central question of why religion is so special, it just asserts it is.
The only real difference I can see is that some (most?) religions assert the unfalsifiable claim that there is an afterlife which is affected by choices made in the present life.
But that seems no different from someone whose philosophy requires him to do certain things to improve society, which will persist even after his death -- such as building pyramids, helping in a soup kitchen, or redistributing from the rich to the poor via bank robberies.
Unfalsifiable claim is indeed the key, not to be dismissed as an edge case. Acknowledging and embracing that something is unprovable by standard means and still you believe it, that's faith.
Supernatural != phenomenological, even when said phenomenology is interpreted in a way you find ludicrous or dangerous.
Does a Nazi's faith in Mein Kampf, or a Communist's faith in Das Kapital, entitle them to religious exemptions?
What is so special about religion, as opposed to mere philosophy?
I mean, neither of those ideologies worship or have faith in the books you put forward.
But bottom line is that this is why Smith was good. Religious exemptions give rise to this double standard problem.
When it's like a special drug, or a priest when you're being executed, it's an edge case at best.
But as these exemptions expand, it becomes harder to hand waive. Which leads to, among other things, Blackman going beyond his usual ridiculous unseriousness to heights of fucked up nonsense as he tries to thread the needle otherwise.
"neither of those ideologies worship or have faith in the books you put forward"
That statement epitomizes the arrogance and power lust of statists. Who the hell put you on the pedestal to judge anybody's faith?
You made a factual statement about Nazis and Communists.
It was wrong.
If you're pivoting from that to a joke, you're not doing a very good job.
No, you do not get to decide whose faith is based on what. I described Nazis and Communists who actually exist. Their faith is not yours to deny.
No, you made people up and now you are trying to…act indignant and woke, I guess?
I like the i falsifiable claim that if liberal/federal policy X had more money or the Federals had total and complete control then the policy would finally work as advertised!
Religion is "so special" because it's just about the only thing that can motivate a significant fraction of the population, faced with a "Obey or else!" command from government, to pick "or else!"
Governments' resources to actually compel obedience, to actually deliver "or else", rather than just threaten it, are quite limited, the governments' minions are VERY heavily outnumbered even in outright police states. So governments have to avoid picking fights which would visibly exceed their capacity to compel obedience, because once that happens, EVERYBODY who chafes under any order sees the opportunity to revolt, and the whole house of cards may fall.
Even democratic governments are subject to this logic, and perforce must extend religion some breathing room no matter how they hate doing it.
Religion is "so special" because it's just about the only thing that can motivate a significant fraction of the population, faced with a "Obey or else!" command from government, to pick "or else!"
Holy fuck is this a bad take. How many counterexamples across history are there? The Civil War? The American Revolution? The French Revolution?
Brett may not have phrased it quite right, but his argument for once is right. Of course at times people have fought wars for other reasons than religion. But religion is something that has the power to inspire permanent resistance. Look, there's a reason that even the most authoritarian governments that destroy the other institutions of civil society do not abolish churches (or mosques, as applicable). Try to control or coopt them, sure. But not abolish them.
You mean, other than communists, who famously crushed religion quite successfully?
Crush? No. They just succeed in driving it underground.
Between the former Soviet Union and China, the only religion that is left is islam. The only Christianity in Russia is the propaganda wing of the United Russia Party.
The only openly practiced religion. There are other Christians in Russia, China, and elsewhere who worship in secret.
They did not. Religion was never outlawed in the Soviet Union. The official ideology of the country was atheist, but churches continued to operate openly. Churches were required to stay out of politics and were harassed if they were perceived as being too close to foreign interests, and members of small minority religions were persecuted, of course. The Russian Orthodox Church was controlled and coopted, not banned.
DMN, you would have a point were Brett not to have said it's just about the only thing that can motivate a significant fraction of the population, faced with a "Obey or else!" command from government, to pick "or else!"
It has power, but Brett is arrogating *sole* power to it. That is ridiculous as shown by my counterexamples.
As a few other posters have already noted; there seems to be significant question-begging going on in Josh's post. I get that the Founders and the history of our country has said, "Religious beliefs are to be protected." (How much, when, etc are vigorously debated, of course, but the general premise is accept...even by those of us who think it's a bad principle.
But Josh assumes away the major question: Is giving religion-based beliefs a legal advantage a *morally* correct thing? And I just don't see why the answer to that question is yes.
I'm a vegetarian, and have been since age 8. On my travels, I've gone without any food for up to 3 days, when I've been in locations where I've been unable to find veg food. It's a huge part of how I live my life, how I live my definition of a moral life, and it's totally based on my non-believer view of how a moral and ethical person lives. But, if I were sentenced to prison, I doubt I'd get special meals. Instead, I'd have to convert to 7th Day Adventist, or Hinduism, or certain types of Buddhism. Then, I'd certainly get my religious-mandated diet.
What is the actual moral defense of treating agnostic-Santamonica so much worse than 7th Day-Santamonia? I'm not seeing it.
Maybe a solution could be: Give these benefits to those who make valid (by whatever criterion or criteria society/courts deem fit) religious claims. So, religion is not burdened, thereby satisfying the First Amendment. BUT... give identical benefits to those of us who make the same claims for non-religious (but, rather, morals-based or ethics-based) reasons?
"Is giving religion-based beliefs a legal advantage a *morally* correct thing?"
Well, no. As a general proposition, governments should just generally let anybody do anything, for any reason whatsoever, that they'd permit you to do for religious reasons. Unless a command is so urgent that it would make sense to enforce contrary to religious liberty, it's not urgent enough to enforce contrary even to random people's whims.
The need for religious liberty is a product of living in an unfree society.
I empathize with your plight and agree with your suggestion, Santamonica.
One thing that a lot of people in this discussion don't acknowledge (or perhaps don't recognize) is that the government regularly discriminates against certain religious beliefs, not just the "human sacrifice" ones but even those that are peaceful and harm no one.
I'm a member of the Church of the Brethren, one of the historic peace churches. Some of our members believe that registering for the draft, even at the level of filling out the card at the Post Office when you're 18, violates their conscience. There is no CO status available for them, and no place on the form to indicate you're a CO. Some have been jailed for this.
The government also provides extra benefits to veterans in their hiring processes, benefits not available to COs or others who haven't served for religious reasons.
I'm the one always saying don't mix up ideology with religion.
But fuck this 'faith > ideology' bullshit. Ideology can be just as central a driver of one's self-worth as faith.
Atheists don't get less rights because they didn't get on the God Train with me.
Dude, you’re a Federal. Satan ain’t God.
Hell has actually frozen over, because I actually agree with you. I see nothing special about religious beliefs that privilege's them over mere sincerely held ones.
Eh, I don't see you as one of the partisanship-first bomb-throwers; there's probably a lot we'd agree on if we were just kibitzing.
Historically, exemptions from military service not only went only to religious rather than philosophical objectors, but only to religions of sufficient numbers and fanaticism that throwing them all in prison became impractical. E.g., in WWI a Quaker had no problem getting an exemption, but Alvin York, who came to Christian pacifism when he studied the Bible by himself in a mountain cabin, was told to report to boot camp or prison.
Sherbet is right on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhJ2LEdErsI&t=112s
That is strange to me that a person's motivations behind their belief determines whether a law applies to them. Religions are belief systems. If a person from a religion can have a law not apply to them because of religious beliefs, equal protection necessitates that other people be afforded the same right to have their beliefs recognized. The government should not be deciding which beliefs are more deserving of protection than other beliefs.
I agree. The problem with giving religious beliefs preference is that at some point beliefs will come into conflict and the government then has to pick one belief over another.
One more problem progress and replacement will solve.
Clingers hardest hit.
Moral conscience is nothing more than personal preference, according to blackman.
And violating moral conscience is somehow less intractable than violating "faith", because it is without regard to some higher power.
Apparently giving up one's moral conscience is not hard at all, or deserves no special protection, because the individual involved doesn't regard it to be associated with some higher power.
A necessary condition of intractability is regard to some higher power? That seems to give pretty short shrift to the idea of adhering to a moral conscience at all.
The relationship to this "higher power" is rarely direct. The dictates of the "faith" are far more likely to come from other contemporary human beings using some interpretive method. And these interpretations are hardly immutable. Revisions are not uncommon.
And membership to some religion or other is itself something like a personal preference. People convert all the time, very often just to match their spouse's religion. Probably with much anguish and likely doom in regard to some higher power or other.
Once converted, the dictates of the new "faith" likely will come from other human beings, not expressly from the higher power.
And somehow the validity of all of these beliefs hinges on some evaluation of sincerity which quite often will be just a guess.
tldr;
'I think that's what my skydaddy wants' = valid
'My personal moral convictions require this' = invalid
Why? "history" has a tradition of the former making people far more stubborn.
Of course, that's only because powerful interests spent millennia pushing it as a means of social control.
I thought the holding of United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 (1965), was that the state *can't* exempt from mandatory military service a religious person who adheres to a pacifist faith, but not exempt a non-religious person who holds a pacifist philosophy, if that philosophy "occupies a place in the life of its possessor parallel to that filled by the orthodox belief in God of one who clearly qualifies for the exemption"
But that decision came only after over a century of military draft laws that did _not_ give a non-religious pacifist the same exemption as a member of a pacifist church. Nor did it make it anywhere as easy for a philosophical pacifist to convince the draft board that he was telling the truth as, say, a Quaker - never mind the many Quakers who had willingly volunteered for military service, and the one that was currently beginning a campaign to become Commander in Chief of the USA military (Richard Nixon). And it came just 7 or 8 years before Nixon's transition to the all-volunteer force made all disputes about draft status effectively moot.
The federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act and its state counterparts generally provide that, except for regulations which satisfy strict scrutiny analysis, government shall not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion even if the burden results from a rule of general applicability.
Why is there very little litigation on when a burden of the exercise of religion is or is not "substantial"? Shouldn't the statutory language contemplate that some burdens are trivial or insubstantial exist?
For instance, when the plaintiffs David and Barbara Green in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc., 573 U.S. 682 (2014), provided insurance coverage to the full range of contraceptives (before the dispute became a vehicle to challenge Obamacare), did the Greens believe anything different from what they believed after they belatedly objected to providing such coverage? Did they worship any differently? IOW, how did the challenged regulations make one iota of difference in the Greens' exercise of religion?
Justice Ginsburg opined in dissent in Hobby Lobby:
I would conclude that the connection between the families’ religious objections and the contraceptive coverage requirement is too attenuated to rank as substantial. The requirement carries no command that Hobby Lobby or Conestoga purchase or provide the contraceptives they find objectionable. Instead, it calls on the companies covered by the requirement to direct money into undifferentiated funds that finance a wide variety of benefits under comprehensive health plans. Those plans, in order to comply with the ACA, see supra, at 3–6, must offer contraceptive coverage without cost sharing, just as they must cover an array of other preventive services.
Sound insubstantial to me. Why is this not litigated as an ordinary question of fact?
Why would anyone buy insurance for contraception? Do Democrats think there is some kind of catastrophic sex emergency where you need to indemnify yourself from the $0.25 for the cost of a condom?
That is a dodge. How is the burden upon religion "substantial"?
They don't want to fund it directly or indirectly. You guys think if you create all these workarounds they could convince themselves that they aren't. Those are the mental hoops you people do to justify your horrific beliefs. Regular people aren't like you.
Once more, how is the burden upon religion "substantial"? Merely kvetching "But I really, really, really don't want to" doesn't feed the bulldog.
Do you think being forced to pay for what you believe is murder either directly or indirectly (once removed) isn't substantial?
It may not be to you, you people love chopping up and selling baby body parts, but normal people find it revulsive.
You also think it's totes cool to force others to pay for you to chop up and sell little baby body parts, and that isn't a substantial burden either.
I believe that war is sin. Nevertheless, I'm paying for it and for people to serve in the military, which I also believe is sin. These are beliefs that many Christians have held for a long time. Why should beliefs about abortion be privileged in a way that mine about war are not?
Their religion says that X is evil. The law required them to provide X. Ginsburg's, "Oh, they didn't have to personally buy X for their employees; they could just provide their employees with a coupon for free X" isn't a meaningful rebuttal. Your problem (and Ginsburg's) is that you so disagree with the first step that you can't accept that they really believe it.
As a rough analogy, if a GOP Congress passed a law saying that health insurance must cover conversion therapy for gay kids, you — and similar-thinking people — would likely not shrug and say, "No big deal; sure, it's child abuse, but I'm not the one actually providing the service, so it doesn't bother me. My conscience is clear."
The way you phrase these comments evince the modern liberal's denigration of religion as little more than speech. The exercise of religion is what you "believe" and how you "worship," in this secularist worldview. But to (some, but not all) religious adherents, the exercise of religion is how they live their lives, not just the words they recite when they attend church/shul/mosque/etc.
Did the Greens "believe" or "worship" differently based on the contraceptive mandate? No. But it forced them to act differently than they believe their religion required them to. It forced them to be complicit in something they believed to be wrong.
They didn't act in that manner at the outset -- their company insurance plan initially covered all forms of contraception, and the Greens didn't even inquire into what the coverage included until it became an opportunity to gig Obama. How did the change in circumstances -- non-coverage vis-a-vis coverage -- "substantially" burden their religious exercise?
I suppose that might also go to the sincerity of their claimed beliefs.
Why should they have to buy you something they do not wish to buy?
..., whatever their reasons?!
So, in other words, it's not that they thought it was okay; it's that they didn't know. And then Obamacare brought the issue to their attention by making a huge public deal of the fact that companies were required to fund this coverage, so they looked into it.
But, yes, if your version — that they just didn't care, and only used this as an excuse to attack Obamacare — were true, it would speak to sincerity. (But that narrative makes little sense. Their approach was a very narrow one that did nothing to actually affect the Obamacare program. Unlike the attack on the mandate, it had no possibility of undermining the law itself.)
Hi David. I appreciate your comments throughout this thread.
Did they fund IUDs prior to Obamacare, and did they know that they sometimes function by preventing implantation? As I recall, Obamacare required employers to cover an array of birth control devices - 20? - and Hobby Lobby covered the 16 that are contraceptive agents, refusing to cover the 4 that can/often function by preventing implantation of a fertilised egg.
Every civil (and uncivil) political decision implicates conscience, and everything that implicates conscience implicates religion (even if only the religion of not having a religion).
The establishment clause protects religions. The free exercise clause allows the practice of religion. It's as if the Constitution protected the Yankees, and the actual fact of going to a Yankees game. To say that every belief motivated by conscience implicates the free exercise of religion is to stretch the right so far beyond its bounds so as to become meaningless and fragile.
Far from being beyond the bounds of debate, the moral implications, prescriptions, and proscriptions of religion should shape the conscience of the civil state. Respect for others' decisions of conscience is the foundation of every civil society, and not just an idiosyncratic abstract command from the bit of parchment that's presently sovereign on these shores.
Mr. D.
The plaintiff in Sherbert had religious convictions that were sincere. This is not true of many “religious” people going to court these days. Many pro lifers are not really sincere. People with newfound “religious” objections to vaccines are not sincere.
It is pointless to try to reason with superstition (and bigotry, and belligerent ignorance). It often seems counterproductive to try.
As America continues to become less religious, it seems sensible for religious people to work toward a society that provides a better situation for people with minority or unpopular perspectives. But instead they continue to push for special privilege they deny others. When they lose their political influence, they should expect that approach to be used against them. It’s like they never heard a Bob Dylan song.
The less people worship God, the more they worship the people of the State and lick boots.
It's pathetic and sad.
It's not a binary choice. There are plenty of us who chose to not worship at all in any form. You'll not find a greater opponent of all things Federal, and I realized I had no Faith before I even graduated Catholic High School 35 years ago, and no, I am not "spiritual but not religious". I probably would make Richard Dawkins look like Sunday Deacon in comparison. Doesn't make me a slavish devotee of all things Government.
Stick with superstition, backwardness, bigotry, disaffected news, and ignorance, BCD. That suits you.
Instead you wish us who are rational human beings who reject your imaginary friend to lick his sandals or kiss the hem of his gown.
It seems that many people are missing the argument being made.
Person A is philosophical, atheistic. Believes she should refrain from X but is mandated by law to do X. What happens to her if she does X in accordance to her personal morality and understanding of reality? Based on the limitations of her beliefs (meaning they do not extend to a soul or afterlife or greater judge etc)... literally nothing other than consternation over violating a personally created conviction. There is nothing in their belief system that requires them to believe this way versus that... it was self-decided and can be self-changed. They are an adult who chose their own rules for their home as there is nothing higher than them.
Person B is religious and understands their inherent being and standing is at risk for eternity if they do X. They will not merely be letting down their personal convictions... they did not come up with them. They are letting down their creator at the risk of damning their soul and it is this entity that explained the rules. Just as a child does not invent the rules of a home... they are in no position to alter or defy them. The worst that happens if they are forced to do X is potential severance from their beloved (the divine). Disappointment of the authority who created the rules much like a child facing the disappointment of a parent. They so run the risk of eternal punishment.
You can discount Person B as believing fantasy. But your acceptance of it as truth is not a requisit for it being true to them. Beliefs, conscious, our most personal thoughts and how we understand our personal existence is not really up for debate. And to the greatest degree possible we should allow as much freedom as possible to as many people as possible.
But these two people are not making the same claim because they do not object because of the same possible negative outcome.
I is like saying I don't want to eat my veggies because I don't want to disappoint/face the wrath of my mother versus I don't want to eat them because they taste icky. One the downside originates from outside of me and is out of my control. The other the downside is totally inside me and has no downside other than discomfort.
They just aren't. To say they are is only possible through a failure to understand what the world looks like to someone who is religious.
And I am agnostic.
Now do Person C, a paranoid schizophrenic.
Religious conscience is protected because religious people think that they deserve more rights than the irreligious.
Religious conscience is protected because it keeps the power of the government in check. Religion says that there is something bigger, stronger, more enduring, and more important than the people in a domed building making the rules we all live by and enforcing them at the point of a gun. A government that is constrained in its powers will acknowledge the religious faiths of its citizens, even if there's unfortunately no good way to always protect the consciences of moral atheists.
Yes, religion says that.
Religion also says that the Earth is flat and that there's a dome in the sky and light shines through the holes and said dome and those are the stars. That isn't true either, no matter how much the religionists make that claim.
I'm not going to waste my time engaging with bigots, and your response is quite bigoted.
Are you telling me that said things are not in Scripture?
Or are you telling me that any disagreement with the teachings of your fantasy deity and his Bronze Age work of fiction is "bigoted"?
Citation, please.
Genesis 1:6-8
6 God said, “Let there be a dome in the middle of the water; let it divide the water from the water.” 7 God made the dome and divided the water under the dome from the water above the dome; that is how it was, 8 and God called the dome Sky. So there was evening, and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:14-19
14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for isigns and for jseasons,6 and for days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 And God kmade the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to lrule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.
and please explain how the New Testament is a "Bronze Age" "work of fiction," on both counts.
The earliest books of the Bible are based upon Bronze Age mythology -- though the latter portions are Iron Age mythology.
And it is clear that the mythology of the Bible is fiction.
By the way -- it is quite interesting that you demand I assent to your faith-based assertions regarding government, but consider the fact-based assertions I made to be an example of bigotry.
The mere fact that my beliefs come from locical and philosophical tenets rather than fear that my imaginary friend will cast me into a fiery pit if I don't do what he says should in no way make my rights and beliefs less important than those of the followers of religion. Indeed, granting such privileges to religionists is to create a fundamentally unequal legal status for those who do not follow the irrational demands of the supernatural.
But if we are going to grant such exceptions to religious believers, then it is incumbent that we also exclude them from the lawmaking process so that they are unable to impose their faith-based beliefs upon those who do not share them while not being subject to laws that their imaginary friend proposes. After all, their special privilege must and ought to come with a cost that is directly related to that privilege.
"[A]s a matter of first principles, society ought to provide an exemption for those who actually face that intractable choice between a higher power and civil law."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_the_Vend%C3%A9e
The Civil Constitution of the Clergy required all clerics to swear allegiance to it and, by extension, to the increasingly anti-clerical National Constituent Assembly. All but seven of the 160 bishops refused the oath, as did about half of the parish priests. ... Nonjuring priests were exiled or imprisoned and women on their way to Mass were beaten in the streets. Religious orders were suppressed and Church property confiscated. On 3 March 1793, virtually all the churches were ordered closed. Soldiers confiscated sacramental vessels and the people were forbidden to place crosses on graves.
Now when someone's conscience tells them that they should not allow non-whites to eat in their restaurant, we need to respect their conscience and exempt them from civil rights laws, right?
Remember the long-held Establishment Clause principle that government may not favor religion over non-religion. The notion that giving religionists of various stripes a special privilege to be exempt from the law based upon conscience but not non-religionists is not an example of favoring religion over non-religion, I cannot think of what would be a violation of that principle.
This wreaks of the kind of prejudice that is usually no longer welcome in respectable company. Of course atheists feel moral conflicts just as strongly as the religious.
So the person with the most restrictive 'beliefs' has the most power over the actions of others?
Gosh what could go wrong with that rationalization? /s
A person who has a moral obligation to donate one day a week to serving of others is just as valid whether they are being threatened by a mythical deity or not.
Hi, Rhoid. Go to Europe. See if you can stand to live there. Report. Everything is cheaply made, and sucks. Try fitting into their cars that cost twice as much as ours. Then get a job in any profession you choose at half the salary of the US. Look up the salaries in your profession. Enjoy living like an animal.
Queenie. Do you have any kids? When you go to Europe, please, please, watch them, Sweetie. Pedophilia is rampant over there. Remember the slippery slope and gays. Europe will be legalizing grooming and butt banging of kids.
Social learning is a thing, Rhoid. Deterrence is a thing. It just violates Fifth Amendment Procedural Due Process. I am not conducting a tribunal in this Comment section.
The toxic assholes here are unable to understand, it is unfair to punish a person for the crimes of others, that have yet to happen, over which the defendant has no control, and that may not happen at all. It is another lawyer idiocy, when judges say shit like, send a message.
The Euros and the UN are calling for the sexual liberation and for the sexual rights of children. Translating that, they are groomers. They are teaching the technical aspects of butt banging in lower grades. If you have kids, Sweetie, do not let them get banged by Euro pedophiles. They are all AIDS infested.
Any remark about deterrence in a trial is reversible error, Honey.
Language evolves. Get over it and stop being a White Supremacist by expecting the Queen's English.
This is the Democrat military.
https://www.dvidshub.net/video/844401/navspeaks-pronouns
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2021/09/01/texts-show-chaos-us-military-knew-they-were-leaving-american-citizens-stranded-at-the-kabul-airport-n1474859
Worthless, weak, and evil.
Exactly. That sounds strange to some people of modern bent, for whom religion is primarily a social activity with some old rituals engaged in for nostalgia's sake, and which one can change as easily as picking a new favorite team to root for.
But to large numbers in the founders' era, religion was a matter of core personal identity; saying "you should stop being Catholic" would be like saying "You should stop being gay" to someone in the 21st century.
Please elaborate on the difference. I think this is critical to the validity of this blog, which throws around the ambiguous term "higher power". From personal experience, I know that the plurality of sects considering themselves jewish do not require [to say the least] belief in a personal Deity, and there are quite a few professedly atheistic rabbis out there. Of course, some worship Gaea, or some cosmic something.
Hi, Rhoid. Half the salary, twice the price for everything. Look up the want ads for your job in English papers. Look up the same item on Amazon, France as on Amazon, US. Live like an animal. Religiosity is a factor.
What are you trying to day, Rhoid? I do not understand this comment.
You think the leaders like Gen Milli "White Rage" Vanilli voted for Trump? The guy literally committed treason under Trump.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Hi. Rhoid. Cool argument, bro.
Because historically people believed in magic.
Would but the opposite be true.
I've never felt the need to buy insurance to protect myself from the risk of having sex and there being no forms of contraception around.
You think having sex makes someone realize they need to buy insurance for condoms?
Your comment is obviously dumb, but it does raise an interesting question: Is Trump a "higher power" in the sense of the OP?
How is it dumb? The woke, gay, trans loving Pentagon leadership are no way Trump supporters.
What are you, retarded? Do you not see the stupid gay shit the Democrat US military is doing?
Disaffected right-wing bigots are among my favorite culture war casualties. Better Americans will continue to march toward progress along a path paved with the crushed aspirations of these obsolete losers.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner. It just slaps a thin legal veneer on what is really Mob Rule. That is why matters pertaining to individual rights should be outside of the reach of the democratic process. Liberty, freedom or any other term you chose to assign is the state of existing without coercion. It cannot exist so long as a group large enough can tell you what you can or cannot do.
Just because 51% of people say something should be, doesn't make it OK or right.
It was for this reason the Bill of Rights isn't a list of Rights, it's a list of what government can't do, no matter how popular.
The redemptive qualities of democracy do not exist. But the connection between the stupidity of J6 and the fallacies inherent in democracy are zero.
Dictatorship is the use of force on otherwise unwilling individuals. It has nothing to do with whether or not people voted to authorize that force.
Why don't answer the question?
Can you specifically point to the difference between worship and deep reverence?
https://nypost.com/2021/09/29/milley-admits-he-would-tell-china-if-us-launched-an-attack/
"Also, military officers do vote Republican significantly more than they do Democratic."
Why do you think all military officers work at the Pentagon? Moron.
You buy insurance for broken condoms? lol
A significant plurality of the top richest counties in America surround DC where the Federal Class lives.
Federal workers earn, on average 2x as much compensation as a private sector worker. That number increases the less education you have, by the way.
A double income Federal family would be a top 5% household in terms of total compensation.
Yet Federals provide no economic value and only introduce cost and inefficiencies upon the rest of us. There is a class war going on, it isn't whites vs blacks, or rich vs poor, it's Federals and their client groups vs the rest of us.
Hi, Rhoid. Try this. Look up the salary of whatever your job is in Monaco. Then look up the price of a Ford Escort in Monaco and in the States.
Believing the supernatural stories is not philosophy: it is believing nonsense.
No different than believing Bugs Bunny, John Blutarsky, or Barack Obama to be an omniscient god, or that the screenplay of Groundhog Day, Animal House, or Caddyshack is a sacred, perfect text answering all of life’s questions without error.
There were many uneducated, insular, ignorant, barely literate people 250 years ago. Excellent conditions for superstition.
So you don't know what a dictatorship refers to?
The absolute control in a dictatorship doesn't really allow for things like being voted out of office.
Which is why "progressives" want to get rid of it.
What if, instead of cancelling elections, you tinker with the election rules to make electoral fraud easier? What if you declare the leader of (and some (many? most?) members of) the other major party ineligible for election by virtue of being "insurrectionists"?