The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
How Socialism Leads to More Domination of Workers than Free Markets
Political philosopher Chris Freiman makes the case.

One of the standard justifications for socialism is the claim that it will free workers from domination by their bosses. After the revolution comes, working people will no longer have to cater to the arbitrary whims of capitalists or their managerial lackeys. Anyone who has ever had to put up with a mean or incompetent boss can readily see the intuitive appeal of this idea.
The intuition is backed by the ideas of "non-domination" theorists (not all of them socialists), who emphasize the importance of freedom from the arbitrary control of others. Even if the victim of domination has a high material standard of living, they argue, she has still suffered a grave injustice. Thus, even the best-paid employees of capitalist firms still labor under the domination of the boss. Some non-dominationists add the point that this is true even if the boss's dictates are always reasonable and he never abuses his authority. The mere fact that he could wield arbitrary power over you if he wanted to, is enough to make you a victim of subordination. Socialism would, it is claimed, put an end to this grave injustice.
In a recent guest post at Bryan Caplan's "Bet on It" blog, political philosopher Christopher Freiman takes issue with the non-domination rationale for socialism. While it may free workers from the potential domination of bosses, it exposes them to worse abuses at the hands of fellow workers:
[I]magine that Alice is living under capitalism and owns a restaurant. She has somewhat puritanical sensibilities and doesn't like the look of her employee Tate's new tattoo. However, she would suffer a significant material cost if she acted on her anti-tattoo bias and fired him—namely, the loss of a productive employee. So even though Alice doesn't like tattoos, she has an economic incentive to grit her teeth and keep Tate on board. Indeed, it's plausible for Becker-type reasons that if Alice does start making hiring and firing decisions on the basis of occupationally-irrelevant considerations like tattoos, she'll lose productive workers to competitors and see her business languish as a result. The system as a whole will punish arbitrariness even if a particular employer indulges in it.
Now suppose Alice is living in a socialist society that's characterized by democratically-run, worker-controlled cooperatives. She still doesn't like tattoos and Tate—now her fellow worker-owner—still decides to get one. As an individual worker-owner in the cooperative, Alice can cast a vote to fire Tate. Notice that her material incentive to not indulge her anti-tattoo bias is much weaker in this scenario. Under capitalism, Alice's decision about Tate's employment is decisive—if she wants him fired, he's fired. Consequently, an arbitrary decision comes with a 100% chance of losing a high-productivity employee and taking money out of her own pocket.
However, under socialism, even if Tate is productive and firing him would make Alice worse off economically, it may still be rational for her to vote to fire him to express her distaste for tattoos. The vote, unlike the firing decision in the capitalist scenario, is not decisive—it comes with a much smaller chance of actually resulting in Tate's termination. Since there is a comparatively low chance that her vote to fire Tate will get him fired, the vote has a comparatively low material cost to Alice—making it more likely that she'll cast it. And the point holds for all of the other worker-owners, meaning this is a cooperative-wide problem. (It's true that Tate also gets a vote, but a single vote isn't much of a safeguard against domination.) While socialists claim that collectivization will liberate workers from the whims of their bosses, they tend to ignore how collectivization subjects workers to the whims of other workers. Indeed, worker-owners have stronger incentives than capitalist employers to make arbitrary decisions, so we should expect arbitrary decisions to be more prevalent under socialism than capitalism.
Freiman's point can be extended in several ways. First, the dynamic he identifies becomes worse with increasing size. The larger the number of workers employed by any given enterprise, the smaller the significance of any given vote in the cooperative assembly, and the greater the voters' incentive to indulge various prejudices. At the same time, the larger the electorate, the less the chance that any potential victim of those prejudices will be able to exercise enough influence to change the outcome. In Chapter 1 of my book Free to Move: Foot Voting, Migration, and Political Freedom, I explain in greater detail how these dynamics ensure that democratic processes generally fail to solve the problem of domination, and may even exacerbate it.
The danger of worker domination under socialism is exacerbated if the socialist system in question is one where enterprises are controlled not by their employees, but by the government - even a democratically elected one. In that event, the individual worker has even less chance of influencing the rules she must live under. And those rules apply not just to one enterprise - which dissatisfied employees can quit - but to every workplace throughout the economy. In that scenario, workers with minority preferences are likely to be far more thoroughly dominated than in almost any other.
In the real world, of course, "democratic" socialism is highly likely to devolve into dictatorship, as has happened with every large-scale experiment in socialism throughout history. Workers throughout the nation then end up subject to the whims of a much smaller, and more centralized clique of bosses who - unlike capitalists - don't have to compete for labor. Dissenting workers are lucky if they only get fired or demoted, as opposed to executed or sent to the Gulag.
As Freiman implies, the best safeguard against domination by bosses is the right of exit, combined with competition. If the boss makes arbitrary and unreasonable demands, she risks losing productive workers to her rivals. At the very least, she will have to pay good workers a higher salary to retain them. An employee who can say "no" to the boss by quitting has far more meaningful freedom from domination than one whose only recourse is, say, a 1 in 1000 chance of influencing the outcome of the next vote at the Workers Assembly.
Such exit mechanisms are far from perfect. But they are vastly preferable to socialist alternatives. And, as Freiman also notes, much can be done to increase mobility and competition in existing capitalist systems, most notably breaking down barriers such as occupational licensing and exclusionary zoning, which make it harder for workers to seek out new opportunities.
Finally, it's worth emphasizing that, if worker cooperatives are as wonderful as advocates claim, free market systems are entirely compatible with them. Nothing prevents people from setting up enterprises run by such collectives. Indeed, they have existed in "capitalist" societies for many decades now. If democratic cooperatives really do treat employees better than conventional bosses, that should give them important competitive advantages over the latter in attracting productive workers. They wouldn't have to pay as high wages to get the best people. And their happier workforces should be more productive, as a result, thereby increasing their competitive edge even more.
The fact that cooperatives don't seem to be successful in most sectors of the economy is a sign they may not be as great as enthusiasts claim. Either they don't actually diminish domination of workers (perhaps for the reasons Freiman notes), or employees care more about things like pay and benefits than they do about non-domination.
Some might even prefer a workplace where management is handled by the boss (or her specialized agents), because they find spending time on governance unpleasant and boring. As Oscar Wilde famously put it, "the trouble with socialism is that it takes up too many evenings."
Regardless, the existence of "socialist" enterprises in capitalist societies further expands exit options for workers, and further diminishes the risk of domination by bosses. By contrast, a socialist society cannot readily accommodate conventional "capitalist" firms - at least not without ceasing to be socialist if the capitalist firms begin to outcompete their cooperative rivals.
In sum, exit rights, not socialism are the best antidote to overbearing bosses. And if you are a non-domination theorist, they are also a far better solution to the problem of arbitrary power than is democratic governance.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
I don't think Chris Freiman made a good argument. To me, voting to fire somewhat makes me as morally culpable as if I fired the person on my own. I do not care that my actions may not do anything. If I think I get a net gain (moral, economic, social, etc.) by firing someone, I would fire them or vote to fire them. If I do not think I will gain, I would neither fire nor vote to fire the person.
You got it right by pointing out that with socialism the economic gain of the company does not matter. Only the gain for the government controlling the company matters. With centralized control, there are fewer options to get a different job with different rules.
I also thought that the larger practical effect depends on the unemployment rate. Workers have less power when unemployment is high than when the unemployment rate is low. I would argue that a strong, growing demand for jobs is more likely under capitalism than socialism.
Socialism = Mafia with bullshit masking ideology.
I have to agree. It's a weak argument that only really makes sense as a direct rebuttal to another argument that I don't find convincing in the first place.
After all, someone has to make these decisions. Whether that someone is a democratically elected leader or an electoral board. The lure of having no boss just doesn't work because in the end, everyone reports to someone. Even a dictator ultimately reports to the people.
The most important difference in capitalism versus socialism in this situation is that if capitalism has an injustice, you can turn to the government for help. The courts and the regulatory bodies will act as a counterweight to corruption, harassment, and the like. However, with socialism, your boss is the government. There is no counterweight.
Part of the problem is a variety of the agent/principal problem. If the boss making the hire/fire decision is the business owner, the incentives are aligned to focus on things that are important from a business perspective. If the boss is going to earn the same salary regardless of what the employees do, the incentive to retain productive employees is much reduced, displaced by an incentive to have "easy" coworkers.
This problem is compounded when the employees vote in large numbers on the decision: Rational ignorance steps in because the effort to learn what is needed to make a good decision is a larger cost than is the benefit from being one vote among many making the decision.
That's why most growing family businesses never survive the transition to professional management: The professional won't be going down with the ship if it fails, and they know it.
Recreating that loyalty through financial arrangements is hard to achieve in the first place, and often eventually gets circumvented.
What sort of loony definition of socialism is this? Only the completely nutty far, far left still insists it's to do with the method of funding of the means of production.
Socialism just means helping those less fortunate than yourself. The US has been firmly socialist since the early 1930s.
if thats the definition of socialism than we don't need any laws except maybe to force everyone to be religious since charity would go up.
That's the bullshit masking ideology. The reality is, collect and control 90% of the economy. Give the money to rent seeking government scumbags, a few crums to the needy.
"Socialism just means helping those less fortunate than yourself."
Like fascism just means cooperating for the common good, yeah.
Bloody hell, I agree with BB.
No-one redefines well-understood terms for honest debating rationales.
And the definition fails in that many true conservatives believe in personal charity and that the form of government they advocate will better those less fortunate. Now I regard the latter as a questionable opinion but nonetheless often enough honestly held and hence by this bright shining new definition, such conservatives are socialist.
This has to be a joke that went over everyone's head, right? ...right?
wow I agree with somin. Did I hit my head and wake up in normal world instead of the usual bizarro one?
Somin is very rational/reasonable when he gets away from the immigration/open borders issue.
Also he's mostly just recapping someone else's argument.
Don't we all? How many truly original arguments are out there?
I suppose there's some utility in pointing out the disadvantages of a form of socialism that can't exist in the real world except as a momentary transitional state. It's like convincing people not to buy the Brooklyn Bridge because, after all, it would be a real pain to collect all those tolls, the work hours would be horrible. Maybe the mark won't believe that the guy selling it doesn't own it in the first place.
The efficiency of hierarchical systems is such that supposed non-hierarchical systems are going to either collapse right away, or end up masking a hidden hierarchy.
Brett pretty much nails it here.
Kind of a silly post by Somin.
Nonsense in the OP is readily disposed of by experience—not that it is a kind of experience a rationalist-style philosopher is likely to attempt.
Simply go to work doing something dangerous. My experience of that was heavy steel fabrication. Try an interval doing something like that under unfettered free-market capitalism; follow it with an interval of unionized employment. Compare the experiences.
Compared to the latter, the former will be a living hell. The unionized shop will deploy protective equipment and procedures. It will suffer additional expense to supervise their use and make them mandatory. The free-market shop will reward supervision which strips such protections from workers. The unionized shop will be relatively clean, orderly, and efficient; the free-market shop will be a chaos of grime, clutter, and worn-out equipment. The employees in the unionized shop will be supervised by foremen who administer helpfully, with foresight and an eye to getting good performance on the basis of mutual respect. The foremen in the free-market shop will display the usual vices of petty tyrants. The unionized shop will monitor employees, and get rid of habitually dangerous workers. The free-market shop will promote habitually dangerous workers to the ranks of the petty tyrants.
Unionized shops will mostly prosper, while free-market shops forced to compete with them will become more likely to struggle.
It is true that beyond day-to-day shop experience, things are more complicated. Politically, some unions are better than others. Some are corrupt; some play favorites among the workers. In those situations, the big-picture experience of an ordinary worker can be arbitrary in a way similar to the big-picture experience delivered by a free-market employer. Where that happens, it is unfortunate, but not a net loss compared to being stuck with the free-market employer.
In shops with better unions, political-style outcomes are in fact determined democratically, although usually with some kind of built-in political advantage awarded to seniority. In either case, good unions or bad, an ever-present possibility of collusion between senior union leaders and management can become a risk for the well-being of less-senior union workers. In unionized shops that has to be dealt with politically, and the politics can fail.
As a steel fabricator I had experience in two large unionized shops—one with a good union; one with a relatively corrupt union. I also had experience in two large and one small free-market type shops. The pattern of conditions was uniform, and as described above—with the unionized shops far superior as day-to-day places of employment, even before their better wages and benefits were figured in.
The disadvantages of the free-market shops were sharply elevated danger, ubiquitous threats to health, affronts to personal dignity, and a generally dismal day-to-day working experience. Plus lower wages and benefits, and less job security.
In my experience, even a shop with a relatively corrupt union was preferable as a place to work to all three free-market shops. In that context, one point emphasized in the OP deserves particular debunking. Free market entrepreneurs prize unfettered management prerogative ahead of everything else. They experience as a threat to their management autonomy any reliance on especially-skilled or especially-productive employees. They will gladly suffer inefficiencies to get free of any such reliance. That may be more a quirk of personal outlook than a rational economic principle, but experience has shown that in the U.S. the quirk has dominated the principle. Giant business failures have resulted.
The notion that something like, "exit rights," would somehow vindicate a laissez faire pattern throughout a capitalist economy is contradicted by the well-known history which brought industrial unionism into existence in the first place. Folks pushing the kinds of arguments offered in the OP above do it for ideological reasons. It is an attempt to undermine a mixed economy, in which unionism features prominently as a check against the widespread degradation of workers which free market principles so consistently deliver.
Some folks remember industrial experience under formerly-prevalent unions. For them, the last 30+ years of devolution under a continuously less-unionized economy have come as a goad and a provocation. The legacy has been lasting bitterness. Anyone who does not understand that only needs to look around to be corrected.
Stevie. How is steel manufacturing doing in the USA?
Prospering apparently.
My guess is, like all Leftists dreams, unions can only really prosper when all steel manufacturing in the world has been unionized! That way there is no "race to the bottom" and the bureaucrats can control the entire system and plug up any freedom leaks.
BCD — Experience seems to show you are mistaken. At least in this nation, what unionism seems to require is a legal structure explicitly supportive of it. That is a condition no longer met in the many states which passed right to work laws. It is also possible that maximally exploitive labor conditions abroad can create difficult competition in international trade, but in the kind of work I was doing, even that was not a factor. The company did heavy construction all over the world, and outperformed everyone, everywhere.
At one of my unionized jobs, I worked in essentially anti-union Idaho. I was represented by a fairly corrupt union, at that time the Operating Engineers. Boise saw the shop I worked in become the most respected blue collar employer in town, and by a large margin the most prosperous one. Because it was efficient, it also offered the most secure blue collar employment. To be employed there conferred respect and social standing throughout town.
To be balanced, it is also true that out-of-control unionism can and has become an enemy of efficiency. There may be efficiency trouble inherent in a situation which promotes union jurisdictional disputes, with multiple unions in the same shop. I think what you want is one union per shop, which organizes all the labor specialties together.
Your reference to, "bureaucrats," seems mysterious. As a matter of principle, unions typically come closer to direct democracy than almost any other social organization. There can be problems, and have been, when unions do not live up to those principles, and let politically entrenched leadership run wild. But even that has little to do with bureaucrats.
Your experience is contrary to mine. In Texas Big Oil, there is a sharp difference between union and non-union facilities. The union facilities are extremely inefficient in comparison. It's all due to the "not my job" phenomenon. For example, if someone finds a leak, they can't tighten a flange to stop it. They must wait for a maintenance guy to come up and have everything properly documented. The one-person-five-second repair becomes a four-person-three-hour one.
When working CIMA emergencies, I have literally seen union men walk off of an active fire because it was their mandatory break time. After all, no one was going to make them work, and the union would have their heads if they didn't take their break. If the regulars weren't there, the blaze would have spread out of control in those 15 minutes.
I'm glad you had a good experience, but I'm fairly certain there was good management DESPITE the union, not because of it.
BoH — What you describe is the very situation I cautioned against. The remedy is to have one union which organizes the entire enterprise, across all the trades—or as close to that as is practicable. That gets rid of competing private purposes among the workforce.
I note also your mention of onerous paper work. Is that a reference to specific union requirements, or to safety procedures imposed otherwise? Either way, it is typically a union interest to promote safety, which is usually a good thing, both for workers, and for society at large. Among free-market entrepreneurs, safety tends to get treated as a costly externality, to be avoided wherever possible.
"The remedy is to have one union which organizes the entire enterprise, across all the trades—or as close to that as is practicable. That gets rid of competing private purposes among the workforce."
I wonder if it will ever occur to people who think the cure for failures in diverse institutions is getting rid of the diversity, that they might accidentally get rid of the ones that work, rather than the ones that are broken?
No, Stephen. The paperwork is about billing. After all, you have to properly account for multiple hours of labor for every little leak. An operator doesn't need a work order to make an adjustment on his own unit.
We don't need a union to do proper work safety. That's a deliberate falsehood conflating workplace safety with union presence. There hasn't been a correlation with safety and anything unions do for decades at least. Workplaces are far safer now than they were when they were nearly all unionized.
And by the by, even if there is only one union, there is a mandate to stay in your lane. An operator is not allowed to have a wrench because that's the maintenance guy's job. No one aside from the janitors can pick paper off the floor, and an engineer will get a union complaint for changing a light bulb in his office.
BotH — That last paragraph? None of that applied, any place I worked. Where does that, "mandate," come from? My guess is you have no experience in a shop with only one union, where all the workers are members. Am I right?
Would I also be correct with a guess that pretty much nothing you do on the job is likely to get you killed or maimed if you do it wrong? What does your typical work day look like? No pneumatic angle grinders involved?
No idea why you think one union solves the problem. Whether it's one union or four, the union still has the incentive to protect individual job classifications (which have different pay scales).
Not in the places I worked Nieporent. You did the jobs you were capable to do. You looked for help on work specialities others did better than you. Foremen judged which jobs best fitted which workers' skills, and assigned workers accordingly.
One guy might be a wizard at torch cutting steel plate cleanly and accurately by hand; another guy might have a talent for overhead welding on stainless steel; another guy would not cost the company a fortune in ruined materials by blundering on a press brake. Someone else might be better than the foreman at reading a complicated blueprint. Everyone knew how to operate the overhead cranes, and take the fork lifts out and fetch the right materials from the steel yard.
The shops I worked in were specialists in custom one-off heavy fabrications, but sometimes had sidelines in assembly line type work as well (customarily used as a penal colony). Except for the foremen (not union members, but invariably formerly union members), they all got paid the same. And all of them had multiple specialty skills they could do professionally, so a foreman could keep a shift busy by matching personnel to the demands of various jobs being built simultaneously.
The absolutely most valuable skills in the shop were the least defined—the resourcefulness to organize a method to accomplish a large fabrication of a type no one had ever done before. That skill commanded no hourly premium, but those who had it found themselves choosing among high-paid assignments as foremen or managers of big projects overseas.
The businesses as a whole were organized as specialty workshops, thus mostly excluding workers of notably different skill levels. It turns out that at least in some areas you could hire an ordinarily skilled steel fabricator for the same wage as an ordinarily skilled electrician, put them both in the same union, and pay them alike. That turned out to be a successful business model.
If you wanted to, you could also open a different business, for instance, to do stainless steel pipe fitting for nuclear reactors, which would require harder-to-find skills for which you would pay more. That business too could put everyone in the same union; it might turn out that a lucky electrician working there would get more than he could earn at a steel fabrication shop doing less specialized work.
Notably, engineering workers, who were not in the union, typically had gradations in skill, status, and pay. Most of them, however, got paid less per hour than the shop floor workers. It turns out, for mundane engineering problems, such as designing and dimensioning a spiral staircase to wrap around the outside of a 40-foot-tall outdoor oil storage tank, or distributing access points to avoid interior interference on a distillation tower, to be shipped to a refinery, the shop floor workers were generally better engineers anyway. The real engineers had less insight into ways that design choices might complicate the fabrication process.
"The real engineers had less insight into ways that design choices might complicate the fabrication process."
My first engineering job, (Which lasted long enough to be about half my career assuming I can retire on schedule.) involved spending half my time designing, and the other half in the shop building what I'd designed, and getting it working. I do have to say that made me a better engineer.
Another great thing about unions is that they create jobs for software/robotics/technology type people, and these jobs are usually even better than union jobs.
But there's not a lot of demand for tech that eliminates non-union jobs.
"But there's not a lot of demand for tech that eliminates non-union jobs."
You haven't been paying much attention to the fast food industry over the last decade or so have you?
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/02/mcdonalds-tests-automated-drive-thru-ordering-at-10-chicago-restaurants.html
Also: https://thespoon.tech/mcdonalds-is-testing-kitchen-robots-and-ai-powered-drive-thrus-its-about-time/
Minimum wage laws can substitute for unions in this regard.
Minimum wage laws can substitute for unions in this regard.
No, they can't. A huge part of the incentive to get rid of human workers is that robots incur no health insurance liability, no Social Security liability, no retirement fund demands. And robots are utterly docile. Taken as an economic proposition, a robot starts to look like a good investment if it can be maybe half as productive as a human.
When everything gets automated, where are the funds to pay for Social Security benefits going to come from?
More generally, will-nilly adoption of automation which replaces human workers is a policy challenge with dire implications, almost all of which are being ignored. If the nation still had strong industrial unions, the politics of it would be far different. Unions would sensibly advocate for policies to prevent worker replacement until life-long economic security for the replaced workers was in place.
"When everything gets automated, where are the funds to pay for Social Security benefits going to come from?"
That general problem IS, in fact, a major challenge facing civilization in the next few decades. Automation has been a gradually rising tide for most of human history. First it rendered machinery superior to humans for jobs which required basically no thought at all, which was fine because very few of the people displaced from those jobs were incapable of doing more complex work which was less mind numbing.
But as the complexity of the tasks automation is capable of has increased, it has increasingly rendered the left tail of the bell curve redundant, incapable of doing anything machines can't do better. And it has been advancing up that curve.
Soon it will be drowning the center of the curve, and THAT will be socially cataclysmic. It may result in changes for the worse, or changes for the better, depending on how we handle it, but it WILL result in vast changes.
You won't be able to prevent those changes by unions, though. If human labor is less efficient than machinery for a job, the machinery WILL displace human labor, and if a given jurisdiction refuses to permit that, the work will just end up being done somewhere else. We have to find some other solution.
Ignoring the other things, in what way are unions (1) socialism and (2) not possible under capitalism? Cause I can't think of a single socialist economy that has had functional unions, but plenty of market economies that have.
exit rights, not socialism are the best antidote to overbearing bosses.
Yes, they are. But assuming that capitalism more or less gives everyone exit rights is silly. Leaving a job can be difficult for many workers. Even if they can easily find another, every often not the case, they may leave behind accrued benefits, job-specific skills they have acquired which may be reflected in their salary, etc.
These kinds of ridiculously abstract arguments may be fun for some people, but they have little relevance to the real world.
I think you're confusing having a right to do something, and doing something being easy. They're not remotely the same concept.
"Exit rights" are not really the point. Yeah, in some very unpleasant societies you're not even allowed to exit. But assuming that the socialist regime does let you quit, the real question is - what else can you do, if you want to carry on eating ?
The real problem with non-slave socialist regimes is monopsony - there's only one buyer for labor. In a capitalist / free market economy there will be other employers. Maybe the deal won't be so good as you got from the last employer, but unless you live in a company town, and can't travel, there'll be something else you can do. Or you can start your own business, anywhere in the spectrum from founding a new software company, to mowing other people's lawns.
But in a socialist society, the state is the only employer. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss is literally true.
The problem (slavery excepted) is not exit, but re-entry.
In practice it's both, because real socialist countries don't leave out the slavery part.
So just where has Socialism ever worked?
Socialism is trying to be rehabbed and repackaged as "public services" and sold to morons who have never read a book.
They point to Scandinavia which has gone full on capitalist.
Thus the 'Socialism just means helping those less fortunate than yourself' nonsensical attempt to redefine socialism.
Maybe the definition would make more sense if we added "using another person's money."
"The intuition is backed by the ideas of "non-domination" theorists (not all of them socialists), who emphasize the importance of freedom from the arbitrary control of others. Even if the victim of domination has a high material standard of living, they argue, she has still suffered a grave injustice."
Rather than argue that a worker would be better off under capitalism because their boss is disincentivized to fire them for arbitrary reasons, how about pointing out the falsehood of the premise that capitalism promotes a material injustice by subjecting workers to arbitrary control? People voluntarily enter the workplace to trade their time and energy to the company, under the rules and culture of that workplace, in return for monetary compensation. The amount of money depends on the value of their time and energy, and they are free to exit the company and find another to work for at any time. Compare that to a Socialist economy where participation is involuntary, there is no escape, and your time and energy are stolen by the controlling authorities to be directed where they wish to benefit others. There is no trade of time and energy value for monetary value (which is simply a medium by which you obtain what you actually want or need in return for your time and energy) - you are powerless; the government issues housing and food to keep you, a unit of production, alive so you can continue to be forced to labor for the collective. Only one of these scenarios presents a grave injustice to citizens, and it is certainly not capitalism.
People voluntarily enter the workplace to trade their time and energy to the company, under the rules and culture of that workplace, in return for monetary compensation. The amount of money depends on the value of their time and energy, and they are free to exit the company and find another to work for at any time.
That's a nice stick-figure description of what happens.
Is it even possible to realize that the world actual people live and work in is way more complex than a cartoon?
No, that is actually what happens unless the markets in which a company operates, on the supply side, the demand side, and/or the labor side, are controlled or distorted by government (laws or regulations), which, if this occurs, is not a problem caused by Capitalism. Your perception of what happens is based on the propaganda you have absorbed. Just give me one example that proves me wrong, that businesses in a Capitalist economy inflict "grave injustices" on employees.
reasonableone1959 — The trial of the Molly Maguires.
By the way, your question shows you have zero command of labor history. Absent consideration of experience, which only history provides, all anyone can do is argue ideology. You cannot reason your way from ideological axioms to discover facts.
My history professors would beg to differ, as well as my labor law professor and my constitutional law professor. Reading history is something I have not stopped doing in the 37 years that have elapsed since I actually got a bachelor's degree in history. So I think you should try again.
And "by the way," I didn't really ask a question as much as state a premise; beginning a statement with "how about" is sort of an implied question, but the statement (premise) was: "It is a falsehood to assert that capitalism promotes a material injustice by subjecting workers to arbitrary control." I followed that up with an argument. Feel free to disagree, but do so with a premise and a counter-argument, not a baseless and incorrect assumption about me or my knowledge.
Do you have a coherent response to my comment, or are you just going to spew nonsense?
Blah blah blah. Your comment is incoherent nonsense. And I already responded. Challenge evidently not accepted.
that is actually what happens unless the markets in which a company operates, on the supply side, the demand side, and/or the labor side, are controlled or distorted by government (laws or regulations), which, if this occurs, is not a problem caused by Capitalism.
So, tell me, then. Has True Capitalism ever been tried?
The closest humanity has ever come occurred at the founding of our country. The Federal government was constrained in its power to interfere in the private financial affairs of its citizens to the greatest extent in any country at any time in history, to my knowledge. Article 1, Sect 10 was not yet a dead letter, the interstate commerce clause was understood to empower the federal government to regulate only entities that were actually engaged in business in two or more states, not merely entities who make products that might wind up in another state, the executive branch held little power and did not run dozens of agencies wielding power that the Soviet Union would have been jealous of, etc, etc, the takings clause was strictly for the government taking property for public use (which was understood to disallow direct federal taxation, as the taking of money for public use would necessitate giving it straight back under the takings clause recognition of the citizens' right to just compensation when their property was confiscated, and on and on. Property rights were understood to be the foundation on which liberty rests. The point is that Capitalism is what happens when people are truly "free" (when preserving liberty, not producing "equality," is the overarching goal of the people and their government) and they have the all the power over their economic lives (limited only by their obligation not to infringe the liberties of anyone else), and all other economic systems are what happens when the government holds all the power, and liberty is sacrificed for forced equality, fantasies of world domination, or any other goal sought after by Socialist, Fascist, or Communist governments.
Sorry to say, the evolution from what our government and country was, to what it has become, has been like an ever advancing ratchet driven by people who don't really want liberty, and lifetime politicians addicted to power who have incrementally made our country more and more like any Socialist, Fascist, or Communist country you can find in history. And one reason is that people don't understand what Capitalism really is; they are all too ready to believe the propagandist lies that anti-capitalists tell. They can't even be up front about what words mean - what is a "far right" activist? Its clearly anyone the Left hates; but what does it actually mean? An anarchist would make sense; and those who favor capitalism are on the far right in the sense that we want the least amount of government possible, but we do want a rational and constrained government to do only those things not possibly done by private actors. But to the left, "far right" means something like Fascism, which is actually another left wing anti-capitalist statist system. Its Socialism with a military leader. So, in short, True Capitalism almost existed. Once.
Or, as I like to say, individualism can simulate socialism with contracts, but socialism cannot tolerate individualism, let alone simulate it.
Arguing with socialists is a lost cause. They are either naive and must learn on their own, or power-hungry collectivists whose only desire is telling everyone else how to live.
" Arguing with socialists is a lost cause. "
True. But better than trying to argue with the belligerent ignorance, superstition-rooted dogma, and broad bigotry that animates the wrong side of history and the losing side of the American culture war.
Rev. The Commies are the Mafia. 1% are doing great, 99% are in abject poverty. They have to impose their unnatural ideology by force to stay rich. No one wants to be a Commie. The USA is 90% Commie if one measures the fraction of the GDP controlled by this failed scumbag lawyer government. Rev, where did you attend law school?
I highly recommend the writings of David Friedman, (Milton's smarter son.) on this topic. He pointed out the same thing:
"Most varieties of socialism implicitly assume unanimous agreement on goals. Everyone works for the glory of the nation, the common good, or whatever, and everyone agrees, at least in some general sense, on what that goal means. The economic problem, traditionally defined as the problem of allocating limited resources to diverse ends, does not exist; economics is reduced to the "engineering" problem of how best to use the available resources to achieve the common end.
The organization of a capitalist society implicitly assumes that different people have different ends and that the institutions of the society must allow for that difference.
This is one of the things behind the socialist claim that capitalism emphasizes competition whereas socialism emphasizes cooperation; it is one of the reasons why socialism seems, in the abstract, to be such an attractive system. If we all have different ends, we are, in a certain sense, in conflict with each other; each of us wishes to have the limited resources available used for his ends. The institution of private property allows for cooperation within that competition; we trade with each other in order that each may best use his resources to his ends, but the fundamental conflict of ends remains. Does this mean that socialism is better? No more than the desirability of sunny weather means that women should always wear bikinis or that men should never carry umbrellas.
There is a difference between what institutions allow and what they require. If in a capitalist society everyone is convinced of the desirability of one common goal, there is nothing in the structure of capitalist institutions to prevent them from cooperating to attain it. Capitalism allows for a conflict of ends; it does not require it.
Socialism does not allow for it. This does not mean that if we set up socialist institutions everyone will instantly have the same ends. The experiment has been tried; they do not. It means rather that a socialist society will work only if people do have the same ends. If they do not it will collapse or, worse, develop, as did the Soviet Union, into a monstrous parody of socialist ideals."
"The intuition is backed by the ideas of "non-domination" theorists (not all of them socialists), who emphasize the importance of freedom from the arbitrary control of others. "
What about the arbitrary control of the Federals or their Globalist international peers? Maybe they think that's the good and necessary flavor of arbitrary control.
Having a 90% Commie media owned by tech billionaires kowtowing to the Chinese Commies for access to its market is pretty controlling. These traitors should lose their assets in civil forfeiture.
Since no socialism as described in this article has ever worked past the Right People taking charge to make it more efficient (for them), it seems sort of a moot point.
Anyone making broad claims about "socialism" or "capitalism," or offering up simple-minded comparisons, as Somin does here, is making a mistake.
The problem is that these are not remotely well-defined terms. Economic systems exist in a continuum, not in two or three distinct categories, and if your argument assumes they do it's nonsensical. You end up claiming that because the Soviet Union was a disaster we should dismantle Social Security, or that a market-based economy inevitably leads to 10-year-olds mining coal.
Bernie, Bernie, Bernie. It is not hard. Figure out the fraction of the GDP owned or controlled by failed scumbag lawyer government, that is the exact measure of how Commie a place is. Here in the USA, we are 90% Commie.
“Management” as a disciple always seemed inherently corrupt. The best leadership comes from founders who are most invested in making an idea work.
The story of the restaurant is owner is nice but it's not all the same story. What about Fred whose is also a good employ for 20 years, but he slower now and since his wife developed cancer he not been able to keep up. Fred doesn't work for the owner he works for a corporation where the bean counters control the operation. So Fred isn't a good employee he is number, just like the machine he works on. When the machine gets old it is replaced as is Fred. Now Fred is out of a job, he in his forties and he will never again get hired for a job that will pay him as well as they did when he was in his twenties and thirties.
I don't know that Fred would be better off in a worker cooperative, but the people working next to Fred would at least know his name. The bean counter on the eight floor only knows him as a number.
Policies that regularly get labeled as socialism in the United States - government health care, free or low cost state universities, more extensive benefits mandates - are done in all or nearly all Western European countries and Canada. In many, key utilities are government owned.
Is it really true that all of them became or are becoming dictatorships?
Gradually, but, yeah. You mention Canada; Have a look at how the Canadian government reacted to the slightest amount of push-back from their citizens over Covid controls. They were freezing the bank accounts of people who so much as donated to the protesters. Without even a court order, Trudeau just ordered it, and the banks rushed to comply.
And now the government up and declares that self-defense with a gun is unlawful, and is setting out to disarm its population.
So, yeah, Canada is sliding into dictatorship, while implementing the means to accelerate the slide. Things are not much better in Europe.
Let’s get this straight. When a small percentage of protesters you agree with get out of hand (and the protesters are blocking roads and preventing commerce from functioning), any government crackdown is dictatorship. But when a small percentage of protesters you disagree with get out of hand (and the progwsters ard blocking roads and preventing commerce from functioning), any govefnment forebearance represents a tyrrany against the general population; if government doesn’t crack down hard it’s n alliance with the protesters and responsible for everything they do.
OK, so that’s your position. You do acknowledge numerous posts attacking various city governments for not cracking sown hard on the BLM protesters, fon’t you?
Or is it really about agreement or disagreement? Maybe it’s just that when they’re white government has to put on the kid gloves and act ever so gingerly, but when they’re black government has to shoot to kill.
I didn't think that Canada could not legitimately enforce traffic laws against the truck protesters, just as we could have legitimately enforced laws against arson and looting against the BLM/Antifa rioters. (Note that there IS a huge gulf between violating traffic laws, and arson and looting, though.)
But they didn't stop there, not remotely, and the actions they took were not constrained by the normal functioning of the legal system. Trudeau dictated, and the machinery of oppression leapt into action.
I find it pretty amazing how you hold that all countries in the world are on the road to tyranny, including the US.
History shows this is untrue. But screw that kind of info - you're working from pure political science reason, based on the Brett view of human nature and governments.