The Volokh Conspiracy
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A response to the latest vilification campaign against the NRA
David Kopel at the National Firearms Law Seminar
This morning I spoke at the NRA Foundation's annual National Firearms Law Seminar, a continuing legal education program. Below are my introductory remarks. In a future column, I will describe how mass murders at schools could be halted immediately, through multistate programs like FASTER—Faculty/Administrator Safety Training and Emergency Response. On Tuesday, the executive director of FASTER Colorado explained the program on the Jesse Watters show.
Good morning.
I'm here to tell you about how the legal protection of the right to keep and bear arms has changed in the 14 years since the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in District of Columbia v. Heller. And I will, with 71 slides that I guarantee will be completed by 10:10 a.m., on time.
But first, I'm going to address something that every one of us is thinking about: the heinous murders at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas.
Some of the speakers you will hear later today recently received demands from the media—specifically, from Reuters and from Law360—asking if they would cancel their presentations here today because of the Uvalde murderer.
As if the acts of a criminal made it wrongful for lawyers to become better-educated in the law.
I've gotten to know some of the victims and families of victims of mass shootings, including from the Luby's Cafeteria murders in Killeen, Texas (Suzanna Gratia Hupp); from Columbine High School (Evan Todd); from Parkland, Florida (Pollack family).
These people are among the many good and decent Americans who don't believe that the proper response to the crimes of evildoers is to punish the innocent.
Today, hate groups are demonstrating against us for even daring to gather. They have declared that they will shut us down. Certainly, they have the right to demonstrate as they wish, and they have no right to suppress the free speech and free association of other people.
The haters declare guilt by perversely imagined association. They operate by the same rule as the medieval malefactors who thought they were entitled to kill Jews because, supposedly, Jews from 1,500 years before had been responsible for the killing of Jesus.
This was the same evil thinking as people who used the acts of foreign terrorists on September 11 as a pretext to attack and persecute patriotic and law-abiding American Muslims.
The same malice that used an illegal alien's murder of Katie Steinle in San Francisco as a pretext to deny due process rights to peaceful persons who were accused of noncompliance with immigration laws.
Blood libels are used sooner or later against almost every civil rights group. For many decades, our Association has been libeled precisely because we are the oldest and most effective civil rights association in America.
Among other things, the NRA was virtually the only sporting organization in the early 20th century not to draw a color line against participants. Later, NRA-affiliated gun clubs became the arsenal of the Civil Rights Movement.
Ironically, none of the bigots whose lips drip with blood libel can point to a crime committed by an NRA member. Since 1871 the millions of members of our Association have among the most safe and responsibly-behaved people in human history.
Twenty-three years ago, and fewer than two weeks after the Columbine High School murders, the NRA canceled all its public events for its Annual Meeting in Denver. The hate groups construed this as an admission of guilt.
At the legally-required Members Meeting, we members entered that Hilton Hotel despite a bomb threat. Every cowardly politician who had been scheduled had canceled. But the surprise speaker at that meeting was Colorado Secretary of State Vikki Buckley, the first Black person elected to that office. She described her personal victimization by criminal gunshot wound, affirmed the importance of all constitutional rights, including the Second Amendment, and urged NRA members to join with her in fighting against what she called "New Age hate crimes"—that is, the irresponsible failure to teach children self-control and right from wrong.
So as we begin our day of studying the Law, we say to each and every hate group, we reject your sick and twisted lies against us, for exactly the same reason we reject the blood libels against every race, every religion, and every other group: We reject Satan and all his works.
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Of course, the NRA is the real victim here!
“ So as we begin our day of studying the Law, we say to each and every hate group, we reject your sick and twisted lies against us, for exactly the same reason we reject the blood libels against every race, every religion, and every other group: We reject Satan and all his works.”
He sounds more upset about people protesting the NRA than he does about fourth graders being so badly mutilated by the weapons he wants legal protections for that they needed DNA samples from parents to identify them.
You scumbag lawyers streeted the mass murderer. You protected, privilged and empowered him. Your agents, the police, allow millions of crimes. When the public wants self help, you arrest them, and knock them to the ground, and threaten to taser them. You are the vilest, most toxic people in the country. You need to be crushed to save the country.
The cause of slaughter of innocents is their weakness. The attempt to disarm the population is to attack it later.
Commie is a continuous measure. It is measured by the fraction of the GDP controlled by government thugs and the oligarchs who profit. It is the Mafia. The US is already 95% Commie if one counts the control of the GDP by the lawyer Commie filth through regulation. The last 5% of freedom must be vigorously defended.
6 school shootings in Israel since 1974, living among millions of Jew haters. Stop talking. Start studying.
They go after people early.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/texas-school-shooting-could-israeli-school-security-methods-serve-as-model-for-us-schools/ar-AAXMsVl
Just to be clear, Behar is misunderstanding the thing he's linking to. It does not say "6 school shootings in Israel since 1974." It says 6 terrorist attacks on Israeli schools since 1974. This was a lone gunman, not a terrorist attack.
It is true that the motivation of these terrorist shooters was different, but other than that - what difference does it make as far as the salient point - does Israeli- style security work against school shooters?
Israeli-style security would be extremely unconstitutional. The United States isn't (yet) a militarized ethno-state.
Perhaps, but that's not responsive to my question.
If the NRA are 'butchers' and should be treated as such for letting a few dozen kids die for the sake of preserving what they like what about the abortion lobby that lets 600K kids per year die to preserve what they like?
Why is one organization of 'babykillers' vilified while another is lionized? Does killing children magically get noble once you enter the hundreds of thousands territory?
I can also do whataboutism strawmen in the form of non-sequiturs.
If the January 6 insurrectionists are "photoblogging tourists" and should be pardoned unconditionally despite their treasonous behavior, what about the millions of innocent people who are in prison because of coercive plea-bargaining, predatory bail practices, and for-profit policing?
Why is one set of criminals "patriots" while another is forgotten? Does treason magically get noble once you enter brainwashed-cult territory?
"what about the millions of innocent people who are in prison because of coercive plea-bargaining, predatory bail practices, and for-profit policing?"
I dunno. That sort of stuff isn't really a huge part of either parties agenda. At least not as much as the Jan 6th picnic is to Dems. Maybe you should start caring about it if you want the other side to.
*picnic*
I agree. Over charging should be illegal. If a prosecutor throws a boatload of charges at someone and they are acquitted the prosecutor should have to serve the sentence the defendant was offered by the prosecutor in the plea bargain. Bail is also a problem. It should only be used if someone is a true flight risk.
Now what?
Open wider, AmosArch. Guys like me are not nearly done stomping guys like you into political irrelevance. You can run to West Virginia or Mississippi, or Idaho or Oklahoma, and hide from modernity and progress for a while longer, but you are no match for your betters.
Haven't been for at least a half-century.
Cling to your guns and superstition for solace if you wish, in the time you have remaining before replacement.
Your Neurofibrillary tangles are showing "Reverend", although you may call Pennsylvania "Pittsburgh and Filthy-delphia with Alabama in the middle", Dr. Oz is gonna short circuit that Tattooed Circus Freak Fetterman's new Pacemaker (remember when guys with Tattoos were actual tough guys? OK, I don't, but you surely do, "Reverend")
And such ignorance, we don't "Cling" to our guns, we stroke (Ok, I said "Stroke" take your best shot) them , like you might do with a loved house cat, or faithful dog,
Frank
Rev, where do you live, sweetheart?
I GUARANTEE Rev Arty is a former New Yorker living in Florida.
Artie was banned by Prof. Volokh for poking fun at conservatives a bit too deftly for Prof. Volokh's taste. I am Arthur.
(That reminds me -- the Academy sometimes gets it right. But Ted Kramer, that talentless hack? Unforgivable.)
I have never resided in New York (longer than the week a client put me up at the St. Regis after an important litigation) or Florida (although I was a member at TPC Sawgrass for a number of years).
Actually you sound like a parody of progressivism. You are so over the top with your prejudices about conservatives that you seem absurd.
These right-wing jerks deserve every bit of the progress their betters have been shoving down their bigoted, gun-fetishizing, antisocial, whining, downscale conservative throats for so long as any of us has been alive.
The gun nuts, like the anti-abortion zealots, are destined to pay a severe and predictable price for siding with the losing and bigoted side of the culture war and history. I still hope the backlash against gun absolutists does not overrun a right to possess a reasonable firearm in the home for self-defense.
I also look forward to the replacement of every clinger by a younger, better, less superstitious, less bigoted, less conservative American. Don't like it, clingers? Whine and whimper as much as you like. But you will continue to comply with the preferences of your betters. Losing a culture war has -- glorious, in this case -- consequences.
Thou Doth Protestus too-much-uth, ass-hole-uth
"I also look forward to the replacement of every clinger by a younger, better, less superstitious, less bigoted, less conservative American. Don't like it, clingers? "
Rev, Rev, STFU until you do what you say must done. You are an old, white dude, who only got into your Top Tier school by white privilege. You started the race a full lap ahead. Why do you cling to you unfairly obtained law firm job? Please, tell the class when you resign, and interview the diverse replacing you. Come on, a little honest sincerity instead your bullshit, empty superciliousness.
Yes. NRA is the victim. And I wish its leadership had the gumption to stand up proudly behind its role in preventing or stopping tragedies like this one, instead of cancelling public events as though the group or its members had done something shameful.
The proper response by any political group to a threat to forcibly disrupt its meeting is to hire enough security to expel any disrupters, and give them ROE that will permit them to do that.
The left creates oozing pustules of hate, evil, resentment and envy then acts to ensure tens of millions of decent people are rendered their helpless prey.
The haters declare guilt by perversely imagined association. They operate by the same rule as the medieval malefactors who thought they were entitled to kill Jews because, supposedly, Jews from 1,500 years before had been responsible for the killing of Jesus.
This is obscene, not to say stupid. The people who accuse the NRA and the gun lobby do so for a specific reason. They believe that the laxity of American gun laws contributes directly to high levels of gun violence, including these mass shootings. They believe that restrictions on the type of gun the shooter used would much reduce that violence. They ascribe guilt to the NRA precisely because it fights against any restrictions, any tightening of gun law whatsoever, and thereby is directly responsible for some number of deaths. They think the NRA enables murder.
You disagree, no doubt, and many commenters will express sentiments like yours, some sensibly, some with insults and idiocy.
But this is not remotely like the kind of ethnic hatreds you compare it to. It is a dislike, and an accusation, based on explicit behavior, not race or religion.
Those who blame the NRA and its bought and paid for politicians are not doing what you describe.
Why are you sanctifying blood libels?
I'm not sanctifying blood libels.
I'm saying that what Kopel is talking about is not a blood libel.
Nobody who knows anything about anti-semitism should ever carelessly throw around the phrase "blood libel".
No it isn't.
Did you not read the sentence that came first? You quoted it without reading it?
Jews were persecuted for their ancestors' actions. Guilt by association. Yet you say "based on explicit behavior," as if NRA members have murdered school kids. Why don't you come out against modern Jews who apparently are still killing Christ?
You don't get it both ways. Either both are guilt by association, or neither is.
No. You're wrong.
I didn't say NRA members have murdered kids. I said their political activity can be seen as enabling murders by making guns, including pretty powerful ones, dangerously easily available.
And I'll say something else. I called the comment obscene. The blood libel led to pogroms, deaths, and all sorts of persecution. To compare that to someone calling NRA members names, or protesting at the convention, is obscene.
Utterly obscene. Just think about the comparison Kopel is making.
Hoplophobe political activity is far more responsible for school mass shootings than the NRA. Do you think it just coincidence that these mass shootings happen in gun-free zones?
Let's hang all hoplophobes, shall we?
New word for me to look up: hoplophobe.
“Easily available”.
Good faith question - how far should we be willing (or are we even able) to go to deny a law abiding citizen an enumerated civil right?
And don't get me started on all the hate-speech! It's far too easy to spread hate these days! We should institute speech permits! Local sheriffs (or maybe local Democratic Party leaders?) will decide who gets to speak. Only responsible speakers will be allowed. No haters!
… that’s pretty circular. If we pass laws that limit gun ownership, and they’re not struck down, and on that basis prosecute someone for owning guns in violation of that law, then by definition we’re not denying a law abiding person an enumerated right.
"By definition" if your definition is that the Constitution means only what the courts say it means, nothing more and nothing less. I understand that, day to day, that view is functional, but it overlooks the possibility of a corrupted system.
Hypothesize that, based on the recently declared ineligibility of Nancy Pelosi for communion, she introduces and gets passed a bill outlawing Catholicism. The president signs it, and the Supremes say it's okay.
I understand that probably means Catholics have no legal remedy. But does that really mean the bill does not violate the enumerated right to free exercise of religion?
I know, right? I guess we can follow Kopel's lead and be totally flip about the persecution of the Jews.
Oh my god, I was wearing my Broncos jersey, just walking down the street, and someone from a car was like, "Broncos suck!" I mean, as a Broncos fan, this must be what the Holocaust was like, am I right?
Yeah. Having some people yell at you is just like a mob breaking into your house and the houses of your friends and neighbors, beating and killing people.
Kopel needs to never criticize anyone for claiming victimization.
You mean like the BLM mobs two years ago? Of the mobs "protesting" in front of Supreme Court justices' houses?
“Of the mobs "protesting" in front of Supreme Court justices' houses.”
Those were Kavanaugh’s neighbors and they were just standing there, Chief. They had cheese plates.
A lawyer cheerleading illegal conduct. Color me shocked.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/05/11/protest-justice-home-illegal/
Wait, the Supreme Court protesters broke in and beat and killed the justices and their families and neighbors?
Or you just having victimization wet dreams again? Seriously, what's going on here? Are all conservstives not-so-secretly sexually-frustrated masochistic fetishists? I find it hard to explain their pervasive victimization fantasies any other way. Anything anyone says or does ever, including shoot up a school, gets perceived as a personal domination scenario. The OP is exhibit #1, you couldn't make shit like that up if you were trying to parody a letter to the editor of Leather & Libertarianism.
No, Ed, Leather & Libertarianism isn't a real magazine, I made it up. I can't "hook you up with a couple of back-issues."
You forgot your fellow lefty who opened fire on members of Congress. Many mass shooters are more leftist than conservative . The Buffalo shooter. The guy who shot Gabby Giffords.
You need to look up "pogrom."
You have information that a mob has beaten or killed a Supreme Court justice? You should alert the media - that could be a big story!
Either that, or you’re a complete fucking idiot.
Propaganda. The “high level of mass shootings” is meant to mislead rather than inform. Fatalities per million from mass shooting 2009-2015):
Norway — 1.888
Serbia — 0.381
France — 0.347
Macedonia — 0.337
Albania — 0.206
Slovakia — 0.185
Switzerland — 0.142
Finland — 0.132
Belgium — 0.128
Czech Republic — 0.123
United States — 0.089
Austria — 0.068
Netherlands — 0.051
Canada — 0.032
England — 0.027
Germany — 0.023
Russia — 0.012
Italy — 0.009
Cool chart that includes the 2011 mass shooting in Norway and the 2015 terrorist attack in Paris…but none of the many mass shootings that have occurred in the USA since then.
Figures lie and liars figure, go figure
and funny you don't here about school shootings in Israel where the teachers/and almost every one else carry real Assault Weapons.
Frank
Accordign to this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States, there have been 647 additional mass shooting deaths in the US from 2016 to date (including the latest 22 murdered at Robb). Per million, this adds a grand total of 0.0019 to the list above, which would not make any difference, even ignoring any additional deaths in the other countries.
I can see why you went to law school, with such limited math skills.
zztop8970 — All of the crap statistics you applaud are based on an inappropriate choice—using mean statistics where median statistics convey more accurate information.
What is it that right wing insults so often boomerang? My guess? Right wingers are trying to ape the style of critiques they see others use, but do it without understanding the substance.
I did not applaud any statistics, and those above can certainly be critiqued on some grounds, including the use of mean vs median, which tends to give more weight to outliers. The median is not "more accurate" - that's more mathematically illiterate nonsense, it is just a different statistics, which may (or may not ) be more useful in some contexts.
What I did was point out that the specific critique offered by LTG is ridiculous in its lack of mathematical literacy, and the effect of small numbers of victims (tens to hundreds ) on populations in the hundreds of millions.
Bullshit.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/united-states-lower-death-shootings/
Did... did you actually read what you linked?
It admits that those numbers are correct!
The best that Snopes can do to cover for its side is to point out that the definition of "mass shooting" isn't easy to determine.
Well, that plus perform statistical malpractice to produce their 'alternate facts'.
Did YOU actually read what I posted? The Snopes article CLEARLY points out the problems with that list. Read the last chart in the article and you'll see what the problem is.
And that's the statistical malpractice I was criticizing, you idiot.
You cannot (honestly) use the frickin' median to describe rare events, because it is almost always zero. Did you know that by that standard, the US annual mass school shootings is zero? Nothing for gun grabbers to worry about, then!
" it fights against any restrictions, any tightening of gun law whatsoever, and thereby is directly responsible for some number of deaths. "
That is simply not so. You are ignorant of the NRA's positions and activism with regard to gun laws.
But one could — and conservatives have! — said the same thing about the ACLU. Giving police more leeway, not using "technicalities" [sic] to let guilty people off, reducing the protections of the 4th through 6th amendments, all of that would help keep criminals off the streets, and criminals overall do a lot more cumulative damage than mass shooters do.
Ah, yes - as the famous adage goes, it is better that 100 10-year-olds be shot in the face in their classrooms, than one gun nut be barred from owning as many firearms and as much ammunition as he pleases.
Do you think the result at Robb Elementary would have been materially different if Ramos had been limited to just one firearm, and 150 rounds of ammunition?
Well said.
This should be an embarrassment to everyone.
It's shameful to invoke blood libel about your political organization.
And the timing.
Maybe take a beat before you post rage-fuel like this.
(Same goes for Post's posts at times, but nothing at this level).
Not as shameful as condoning your sidecar blood libels.
Sidecar?
Autocorrect for "side's", somehow.
My side has its hare of issues but this ridiculous post is extra bad for ANY side.
It might be shameful somewhere, at some time in history.
This is the country where the Hillary campaign engaged in what the former Attorney General is calling a "seditious" conspiracy. There's no apparent shame from anyone involved or anyone who went along with it or who supported her.
Kopel's words aren’t illegal. There’s no other standard of behavior that we see people obeying. Pretending to care about standards and norms in order to launch attacks is a last decade sort of thing.
When the best defense you got is ‘standards don’t matter anymore’ maybe don’t defend this thing,
I was directly responding to you. Kopel needs no defense. You are wrong.
From that link:
That's pretty impressive. Two lies (and one lie by implication) in just one sentence.
1) That's not what Mook testified.
2) It was not later found to be disinformation.
3) "A candidate said something to the media about the candidate's opponent that might not be true" is not "sedition," and is pretty much "day-ending-in-y."
Thanks for being the example
Thank you too. "Shamelessness" is not a point you should be trying to make, Beng.
none of the bigots whose lips drip with blood libel can point to a crime committed by an NRA member.
Are you seriously claiming no NRA member has ever committed a crime?
Also that criticism of the NRA is a form of “bigotry.”
It is. Hoplophobes hate everyone who likes guns and appreciates their self-defense virtues. Far more lives are saved by guns than terminated.
Fuck the fuck off. There were people on the scene with guns, they didn’t stop him. Same as with parkland. Same as with Dayton. Same as with Buffalo. And in the case of Las Vegas it wouldn’t have made a difference because he was sniping into a crowd. I could go on.
Children were mutilated so bad they couldn’t be identified except by DNA. They can’t do open casket funerals.
Yet here you are trying to make yourself a victim of the “hoplophobes.”
A child recently had to explained they covered themselves in their friend’s blood and played dead.
Yet here you are thinking you’re the victim of bigotry.
Utterly deranged on every level.
The police on the scene prevented both parents and federal agents from following SOP since Columbine.
No wonder leftists want to argue about gun laws rather than pass laws to ensure best practices are documented and shared.
They want to ban AR-15s so people don’t have to go to any more closed casket funerals of a child because they were decapitated or lost limbs or had their chest utterly blown out from the force of the rounds fired in quick succession while waiting for the good guy with the gun.
"There were people on the scene with guns, they didn’t stop him."
"while waiting for the good guy with the gun"
You can't even keep your lies straight for two consecutive comments.
They were both true! There were people on the scene with guns and the victims died waiting for that supposed good guy to do something!
The good guys with guns were blocked by people who think like you. Get out of the way and let the rest of us save people.
What are you talking about? The cops just stood there in Texas. They tried to engage in Dayton and the killer still killed multiple people in quick succession. The parkland cop fled. The Buffalo guard was overpowered.
You’re just grasping at straws to defend the indefensible because there is simply no limit to how much carnage you will tolerate.
https://news.yahoo.com/texas-police-wouldnt-let-tactical-160544919.html
“people who think like you”
No one has ever accused me of thinking like the police LMAO.
Michael P : "The good guys with guns were blocked by people who think like you. Get out of the way and let the rest of us save people"
Wonder why Kopel makes such a fool of himself above? Only consider one thing: Gun Nuts are the only fetishists who need to believe their obsession is "noble", "heroic" and "important". No other kink is remotely similar. I'll bet if you collect people into crossdressing or women's feet they will natter away about their fixation, happy to be among their own kind.
But collect a few gun freaks together and it's never long before they're puffing out their reedy chests to brag how essential they are. The poor things just can't help it, no matter how pathetic it sounds. But now? Those fantasies don't just sound silly & sordid, they're downright repugnant. No wonder Kopel blew a gasket.....
No, you just think like the dude with too much risk avoidance, drawing bad conclusions as a result, leading to more people dying.
How many different completely different issues are you up to in this thread now? 4?
Same thing happens to babies/Feti with abortion, but since they're predominantly Afro-Amuricans, nobody cares (I do, but not peoples in general)
If you ban AR-15s, gangs will have a monopoly on the AR-15 market.
Why on earth do you think banning AR-15s would prevent a single one of these mass shootings? Do you think there's something special about the AR-15 that isn't the case for hundreds of other different models of firearm?
Yes. Kids are mutilated so badly by this weapon and weapons of a similar type their parents have to get dna samples to identify their bodies.
It's really hard to identify a body when they won't let you see it, eh?
OMG!! You really have to stop believing all the Brady Group Bumper Stickers you see. The 5.56/.223 round isn't even considered legal for deer hunting in most states, too weak for a clean one shot kill. The 30-30 Winchester '94 your Uncle Harold had, before his pedophile conviction, was far more powerful. But dedicated and utterly ignorant Hoplophobes never let facts or reality get in their way. They just continue to make shit up.
DonP, maybe you spend more time with ballistic charts than you do killing game. Many fairly weak guns are still capable of inflicting extensive wounds. My favorite rifle to hunt rabbits was a .22 magnum rimfire. I learned I had to hit every rabbit in the head if I wanted much left to eat. The .223 Remington is several times more powerful than the .22 magnum rimfire. Especially at close range, the .223 Remington can inflict horrifying wounds.
Also, "hoplophobe," (especially with gratuitous capitalization) is a tell. It expresses anxiety gun pedants feel at being rightly marginalized. It is as if they saw the success gay-rights advocates enjoyed with, "homophobe," and figured, "Wouldn't it be great if gun pedants could do that too." But it fell flat. The difference was that it became socially unacceptable to marginalize gays, so a word to condemn doing that caught on.
It will never be socially unacceptable to marginalize gun pedants. Thus, a special, purpose-built word to protect gun pedants is useless—except as insider code to announce, "I'm a gun pedant."
Do you think there's something special about the AR-15 that isn't the case for hundreds of other different models of firearm?
Nieporent — The U.S. military thinks that, with good reason. It worked hard, did a lot of research, over a long time, to make it that way. The key to understand this is that commonplace features in a particular combination are more lethal than they are in other combinations. Hundreds of guns have some assortment of AR-15 style features, but will never be in as much demand as the AR-15, and for practical reasons, not just as a matter of style. AR-15 style guns mostly offer this mass-killing-enabling combination of features:
1. Automatic or semi-automatic operation;
2. Interchangeable magazines, of whatever size;
3. High velocity, light-recoil ammunition;
4. Inexpensive, less bulky, light-weight ammunition.
It is those design elements, used combined, which deliver a weapon featuring sufficiently deadly power—but with optimized lethal efficiency—that a deranged or merely foolish assailant can mistake emotionally for invulnerability—or more reasonably for a realistic prospect of a dramatic mass murder score.
It is that feature combination specifically which has been found to maximally enable deadly rapid fire at close quarters. That is the discovery which led the American military to swap out more-powerful older weapons for fully automatic versions of the civilian semi-automatic AR-15.
It is not hard to think of ways to alter such a gun design to reduce that perception of mass killing prowess. Doing that would likely convince many would-be assailants that they lack capacity to carry out ruinous violent fantasies.
To cite an extreme counter example, change out the AR-15 completely, for a bigger semi-automatic, but with an internal box magazine holding 3 rounds, and chambered for the .338 Winchester Magnum—ballistically a far more powerful weapon, as most readers here probably know.
I suggest if you had a button you could push to turn every AR-15 style .223 caliber semi-automatic in the nation into that .338 Winchester powerhouse, you would instantly restrict mass shooters to use of pistols (or maybe some lesser semi-auto rifles), and probably deter many of them from trying mass murder at all.
Powerful though it is, the Winchester .338 is unsuited for mass murder. Reloading the internal magazine would be frequent, laborious, and time consuming, and create opportunities for victims to rush the shooter. Punishing recoil daunts shooters, disrupts aiming, and makes even practice expensive and unpleasant. The ammunition is not only expensive, but heavy and bulky, making it impossible to carry as much to a crime scene. Even the rifle itself must be heavy.
A would-be mass killer armed with that would worry he stood a high probability of being stopped before his most deadly ambitions could be achieved. Is there any example of a mass killing in this nation which used a gun like the one described above? I doubt it.
Of course, you could also imagine a different kind of gun, which combined some AR-15 features with features from an internal-magazine rifle, to make the new gun far less dangerous as a mass killer. For instance:
1. Semi-automatic operation;
2. No interchangeable magazine; instead an internal magazine which combines bullet-by-bullet re-loading, and a 4-shot capacity;
3. Lower velocity, medium-recoil, higher-caliber ammunition;
4. Less bulky ammunition.
Those changes in the magazine design and the ammunition would make the gun far less useful as a mass killing machine, but leave it highly effective for a task like home defense. You could even make it safer-still against mass-murder use, paradoxically by making it more powerful. Up the cartridge size to whatever level you please, increase caliber, bullet weight, powder charge, and bullet velocity, and with each increment the gun becomes less and less useful as a mass killing machine—but arguably more useful as a defensive weapon.
For what it is worth, it is also possible to get an AR-15 style rifle, with the interchangeable magazine, but in larger calibers. Some hunters use them. They are not purchased as much as the .223. Even with a recoil-reducing advantage from semi-automatic operation, by the time the cartridge gets as large as .308 NATO, fewer folks want to shoot many rounds through it. The ammunition is more expensive; many are daunted by the recoil; accurate aim during rapid firing is increasingly disrupted by the recoil.
It is the combination of features which matters, not the features considered one-by-one. A useful gun less dangerous for mass murder is achievable. To design it is more akin to a software problem—identifying the best formula—than it is to the hardware problem of designing each feature.
Bigotry against gun-owners is very real.
Gun ownership isn’t a character trait or personality or immutable characteristic as much as some of them like to think it is. It’s a choice to buy a dangerous product. Criticizing gun owners isn’t bigotry in any sense of the word.
"Dangerous Product", do you mean like these crazy machines with 4 tires and engines that peoples insist on driving everywhere?
My Bad, you're probably against those to (I know, you need a license, they have to be registered, but Fuck, I can rent one in DC with only a DL and a CC)
Motor vehicles are extremely dangerous. That’s why their use is highly regulated.
safe, and rare, you hardly see any!!!!
Dope,
Frank
Boy, you got the best of that argument, Frank!
Don't forget insurance, Frank. AND you have to be 25 or older. You talk like those things don't make a difference. Fact is, that kid in Uvalde didn't need *any* of those thing to buy $4000 worth of military-grade weaponry the day after his 18th birthday. Hell, he didn't even need cash. Daniel Defense let's you buy on "e-z credit" terms!
That kid couldn't have rented a car, but he could buy two AR-15s and 375 rounds of ammo.
Good point - can you imagine if 18 year olds were allowed to have cars?
LOL. Not without *expensive* insurance, driver instruction and a license. If you don't have teenagers, let me tell you...
The minimum age to rent a vehicle with Enterprise is 21 throughout the U.S., except in Michigan and New York where the minimum age to rent is 18. With Zipcar, students 18 or older can rent, and Zipcar provides the insurance.
I find it amusing that you think buying 2 AR-15s (around $2500, based on the DDM4 Ramos bought, don't know what the 2nd one was) is "easy", but shelling out ~$2000 for a 6 month insurance policy for a teenager is "*expensive* insurance" https://quotewizard.com/auto-insurance/cost-of-teen-car-insurance
Only if you talk like a nut case.
well give an "Example!!!"(HT Jules Winfield, Inglewood)
it's like all the BS about Ronaldus Maximus talking about "Welfare Queens" c'mon (Man!) someone send me a link documenting his saying it (and not someone saying he said it) not like he ran back before Videotape/Tape Recorders.
Frank "never been convicted of committing a crime, there's a difference"
Wow this is some freakishly weird shit. You’re speaking about a gun rights lobbying group as if it’s a religion or that membership is some kind of immutable trait. The level of self-delusion required to compare yourself to Jews being persecuted is off the charts.
Hmmm. I'm pretty sure that Communist Party membership isn't an immutable trait. So, I guess McCarthyism was OK after all.
Better Americans will impose adult supervision on the gun nuts.
The arc of American improvement is plain. The march of liberal-libertarian progress is more than the clingers can handle. The culture war is not over but has been settled. The better ideas and better people have won and will continue to win.
Enjoy what is left of your period of cultural relevance, clingers. If you wish, pretend that the misfits who operate this white, male, obsolete, right-wing blog can deliver conservative relevance over the medium to long term.
I am a liberal. I am anti gun. I do NOT support the 2nd amendment.
I read the Volokh conspiracy to get intellectual conservative arguments, and the Volokh conspiracy usually delivers.
However, it is telling how quickly the intellectual veneer is dropped when facts contradict ideology. The USA is the leading producer of mass murderers. None of the NRA-proposed remedies have worked or are workable. Now, the NRA is down to blaming doors.
The easy unfettered access to weapons of war is to blame. All other reasons are just bullshit and smokescreen. The NRA may be able to block reform for a while, because it is a powerful minority of a minority party that controls congress because the constitution gives too much power to acreage and not enough to people.
Yet, it still represents only a minority view that will lose out eventually. The sooner the better.
No, the leading producers of mass murderers are socialist countries -- Mao, Stalin, Hitler murdered 100 million people last century. Guns are protected by the Constitution for their self-defense values, and it is telling that the left -- including self-professed Marxists and socialists -- are the ones who hate guns, just like their moral and ideological forebears.
Ah yes, the Marxist British with their massive hovernment-spoksored mass-murder. They are Marxists, right? Since any country with gun control laws is a Marcist country, they most certainly are. As are most of NATO. And pretty much wverybody, actually.
Hey! That voice inside your head! It’s a commie. You know it’s a commie. You know you got a mass-murdering pinko communist conspiracy going inside your head right now.
If you’re really serious, you’d put a stop to it. You’d put a gun to your head right now and shoot it. I know you would. You know its the right thinng to do when you got a pinko communist conspiracy running inside yout head like you do. Be a man. I dare you!
Heck, this post made me so angry I even tried to bait the crazies this time, which I usually try not to do.
A dictator taking control of the government can indeed commit mass murder.
Yet, it is telling that the only real threat to democracy in the US comes from gun-and-Trump loving republicans, who tried to overturn an election by storming Congress (and hanging VP Pence). Moreover, they are continuing their assault on democracy by changing state laws to make it easier to overturn elections if they do not like the result.
The idea that they are defending democracy against fascism and/or communism is laughable.
It's like the mice trying to bell the cat. How you gonna take, whats the figure the Marxist Stream Media throws around, "20 million" "Assault-Style" weapons?? Does that include SKS rifles with aftermarket extended magazines/pistol grips? M1 Carbines, no pistol grip, but the e-ville bayonet lug? M1 Garands, only an 8 round clip (yes, an actual "Clip") that Patton called the "Greatest Battle Implement ever devised"(OK, that was 1944, the AK47's better, at least at under 400m)
20 million? quadruple it, people been buying them like they're gonna be outlawed since the Original GHWB banned the import of "Assault Weapons" in 1989, after a similar shooting in Stockton CA (remember when adults committed mass murder)
And Charles Whitman killed 14 peoples (or 13 depending on if you consider killing an unborn human "murder") with a bolt action Remington 700.
Frank "Come and take it, I meat Get it"
Enforcing reasonable gun safety laws is likely to be far easier and more effective than a bunch of flailing, adolescent, all-talk clingers claim.
Yeah, "Reverend" that's what they said before Waco.
But most of us aren't David Koresh, like I said, Bee-Otch,
come and take/get (Oh, I forgot, I'm a klinger, "Git" )it
Frank "Bang!"
If that's how you wish to arrange your replacement, Frank, knock yourself out.
My "replacements" are already born, pretty much the way the world's worked since Adam stuck one to Eve,
You're the one threatening to take my property, you can diddle all the boys you want, (don't ask, don't tell)
Hasn't the NRA moved well beyond guns into more pure partisan politics at this point anyhow?
I feel like the argument both sides want to have is more about some platonic ideal of the NRA as proxy for gun rights enthusiasts than real life.
This all feels to me like anti-vaxx stuff. A disagreement about results that one side cloaks in principles. But, when challenged, those principles give way to reveal a very different take on the facts, causality, and cost-benefit.
Yes, like many other American institutions the NRA did not fare well in its encounter with Trumpism, and I doubt it can salvaged at this point. Hopefully another entity will arise to take up the banner of reasonable gun policy.
Prof. Volokh, I am glad you have allowed Mr. Kopel to publish this, because it shows how unhinged and paranoid some gun rights advocates have become.
"paranoid"
Yeah, it's not like one of the two major parties (that currently happens to be in charge of the federal administration) is simultaneously trying to (1) portray half the population as "domestic terrorists," and (2) disarm them. Why would anyone be worried?!
You can worry if you wish. You can whine and whimper, mutter and sputter, rail and flail, pray on it, whine some more. . . do whatever you like.
But you will comply with the rules established by the liberal-libertarian mainstream. As usual. Gun nuts are nothing special.
You do know whats coming in November to your liberal mainstream, don't you?
Another month of a decades-long, settled culture war in which better Americans are stomping poorly educated, superstitious, broadly bigoted, stale-thinking conservatives into cultural irrelevance. Some dense clingers residing in particularly desolate, ignorant backwaters — red states— may not apprehend much of what is what is happening, though, and may see the occasional flicker of conservative resistance as something other than a slight flutter along our nation’s inevitable, natural course toward replacement of right-wing losers by better Americans.
Paranoid is for when they aren’t out to get you.
Try to be more honest.
The Volokh Conspiracy at its worst.
Say what you will about Josh Blackman, and we do, but even he isn’t this fucked in the head.
Grow up, you sad waste of flesh.
I already did grow up. That’s why I’m not writing a post pretending I’m the real victim after a mass-shooting at an elementary school.
Volokh. Kopel. Blackman.
If this blog is genuinely the best that right-wing legal academia can muster . . . I can probably look forward to devoting less time to political and election work. These clingers don't stand a chance in modern America.
An earlier version.
The problem is that Mr. Kopel leaves out the fact that he and the Independence Institute were strong proponents of the Patriot Act and advocated for the rounding up of "law abiding Muslims" as well as being strongly opposed to legal immigration.
Comparing disagreement with and legitimate criticism of ones political positions to blood libels and ethnic hatred is blshit.
Perhaps the NRA in fact has legitimate justifications for its positions and legitimate rational political arguments against its critica. Perhaps.
But if it does, why would it resort to bullshit? The fact that it is resorting to bullshit suggests it has conducted a self-evaluation and concluded that its positions have no legitimate rational support, so it has no other way way to defend them. Of you can’t argue with them, baffle them with bullshit, and go on the attack and try to guilt them into submission.
That’s certainly the impression the current rhetoric tends to give a neutral, disinterested observer.
No, it’s about right.
I’d have saved that comparison for after I had a few really apt examples myself though.
Hoplophobes are hypocrites.
You like to quote 30,000 gun deaths a year, but 2/3 are suicides, and lefties like medically-assisted suicide, even euthanasia. It must be doubly embarrassing that banning guns in Australia, for instance, made no change in the suicide rate, and that Japan, with one of the most effective gun ban in the world, has a higher suicide rate than the US.
Out of the non-suicide gun deaths, most are criminals shooting criminals.
Violent crime rates in the EU are 3-4-5 times as high as the US, almost universally. Farmers who have used shotguns to defend against home invaders have been sent to prison for daring to defend themselves.
The Burn Loot Murder squad was responsible for death and destruction all across the country, yet you prattle on about the unarmed Jan 6 riot as if it were the worst disaster since, oh, I dunno, probably July 4 1776, when our ancestors told the British to get lost.
Japan, with one of the most effective gun ban in the world, has a higher suicide rate than the US.
No. It doesn't. It's a bit lower than the US rate.
Not that it would be relevant to anything if what you said were true.
Look here or here.
Violent crime rates in the EU are 3-4-5 times as high as the US, almost universally.
No.
Some comparisons:
Homicide rates are a tenth to a third of ours.
Serious assault appears to be a problem in France, where the rate is 375 compared to 246 here. So 1.5 times. Other countries' assault rates:
Germany 164
Spain 39
Italy 109
Netherlands 27
Some EU countries do have higher robbery rates than the US, but hardly "universally," and not 3-5 times higher.
Got any more lies?
I agree that the left wing reaction to this murder has been deeply stupid.
Shit like this doesn't help.
"Ironically, none of the bigots whose lips drip with blood libel can point to a crime committed by an NRA member."
"Ironically, none of the assholes whose lips drip with Nick Fuentes' semen can point to even a single instance when Hitler gassed a single Jew in any chamber. NOT ONE"
Well Corporal Schickelgruber didn't gas them himself, just like "W" didn't and Barry Hussein didn't pop Osama a new asshole in his forehead, delegation (man!), delegation.
https://twitter.com/jadler1969/status/1530310355183869958?s=21&t=oKMuTK82uEgJUChyyBt_Ow
Lol
The Israelis ended the problem of armed intruders at schools by arming and training the school staff. This is a proven solution. Will Biden propose it? Fat chance. The divider in chief wants an issue.
This says nothing about arming and training the school staff.
What it does say is this:
David Hazony, a writer, and commentator on Israeli and American affairs and a father to eleven children, told Fox News Digital that the country "puts effort into identifying potential assailants through behavioral profiling."
Israel could not prevent attacks if its efforts were based solely on armed security guards at each school, he said. Israel "invests heavily in monitoring profiles of people," Hazony continued.
It has a "complex, multi-layered approach" to security that uses intelligence networks to examine the acquisition of weapons and social media activity, he said.
Is that what you want?
And bear in mind that Israel would be many steps ahead in arming staff because it has universal military service.
Everything from "David Hazony through "social media activity, he said." is from the article.
We already have that. Don't you remember how Obama's ATF ordered a gun dealer to sell a rifle to a straw purchaser, and that gun was later used to kill a Border Patrol agent? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
WTF are you talking about?
Your comment makes zero sense.
Not all of us want to live in a militarized ethno-state. I know that a really frighteningly lot of us do, but not all of us.
Emulate Israel? Unless Israel substantially changes its conduct, it might be lucky to be around longer than Kim Kardasian or originalism.
You're right "Reverend", they need to stop with the "2 State Solution" bullshit, throw the effing Palestinians in the Med,
Frank "Baruch Goldstein? mis understood"
Unless Israel stops its course of right-wing belligerence, it is likely to see how it might fare without America's military, political, and economic skirts to operate behind.
I hope Israel quits cuddling with the Netanyahus, Trumps, and clingers. But if it doesn't, it should expect a modern, improving America to respond by abandoning Israel -- and Saudi Arabia, I hope.
Umm, Reverend, might want to check your USA Today, or AOL newsfeed (is that still a thang?)
Net n' Yahoo's been out of orifice almost a year, Trump longer, and Clostridium Pelosii rules the House and Common-Law Harris/Peewee Schumer(on my side of the Israel-A-rab ish-yew ironically) since 1-20-2021,
But no worries, if we Kliners are dying off as fast as you say (I feel fine, but so did Ray Liotta a few days ago), your side will win a Landslide in November!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Frank "not a Klinger, but Bitter as fuck"
This is something else! Works of Satan indeed!
One thing I noticed:
“the NRA Foundation's annual National Firearms Law Seminar, a continuing legal education program”
…….. are you telling me people got CLE credit for this?!?!?
You're just bitter that one can't get CLE credit for cosplaying the Grim Reaper at beaches.
Political discourse as blood libel? I hardly think so. That rhetoric is unhinged.
Decent people don't celebrate the proliferation of firearms.
"Unhinged", huh?
Decent people - to you, are those the ones proudly spewing racist insults at black people?
" Decent people - to you, are those the ones proudly spewing racist insults at black people? "
The Volokh Conspiracy publishes a vile racial slur -- often gratuitously -- monthly.
That's not exactly true. Make it every three weeks. Almost like clockwork recently. It's like a quota system.
UCLA must be proud of and thrilled by its association with this white, male blog that attracts a concentrated audience of our nation's vestigial right-wing bigots. I hope it has learned its lesson about hiring movement conservatives for a strong, mainstream law faculty, and lets other liberal-libertarian law schools know about its unpleasant experience in this regard.
Nice whattabutism.
You going to defend the OP?
It isn't "whataboutism". You should probably learn what that is before you keep using the term incorrectly.
a) NG didn't make an argument; and
b) I'm attacking the proud racist NG's credibility for pretending to know what "decent people" are or what they want.
Are you going to keep defending NG racism?
Attacking credibility by attacking character based on past acts is at best ad hominem.
I’m not defending shit.
What about you and the OP? You into blood libel as criticizing the NRA?
Attempting to discredit an argument by pointing of vices of the speaker is an ad hominem. Again, that's not what I did.
I'm insulting NG, directly. He didn't make an argument, just presented his own insult, and I responded in kind.
You, on the other hand, are still attempting to defend NG's proud racist attacks. And you are lying again, as Kopel's post is not claiming that criticism of the NRA is blood libel. No halfway honest reading of the post could ever produce that statement, but it isn't surprising that you chose to lie about it. That's rather your thing.
So when I said I’m not defending shut, what did you think I meant?
Um, let me tell you about this guy named Hitler. He had this political party, they called themselves the National Socialists. Their whole shtick was blood libel. They got a lot of traction.
I disagree. An armed society is a polite society. (Plus the government will think twice before oppressing you.)
An armed society is a polite society.
This is a fundamentally moronic argument. The fact that gun lovers quote it so often suggests that they really don't think very carefully, if at all, about the place of guns in society.
Do you really want to live in a society where someone might shoot you for doing something they consider rude, and where that is accepted?
We’re also ones of the most armed societies ever, more guns than people, and the word “polite” is not one I’d ever ascribe to American society.
Grinberg is talking about armed intimidation, and how much he likes it.
I asked it above but I’ll isolate for clarity. This is intended as a good faith question.
How far should we/can we go in terms of denying law abiding citizens an enumerated civil right?
"liberal" answer (the kind "the Reverend" might give):
As far as their betters (i.e. the government) decide. If the government doesn't like you -- no guns for you! no speech for you! no religious freedom for you!
Why was it that, two years ago, all sorts of protests (or even gatherings!) were being dispersed, but BLM "protests" (riots actually) weren't interfered with?
Duh, because you can't shoot N-words for merely being N-words.
They never have any answer to "how far" or "how much". It’s always just further and more, no matter what.
Anything short of perfect utopia means you’re to blame and you are expected to pay and to sacrifice. And perfect utopia isn’t available so you’re always to blame and and you’re always expected to pay more and sacrifice more.
Simply shameful.
What a shit argument. Embarrassing. Unhinged horseshit that's not worth the read.
Since you did read it by your own words you should be ashamed of yourself.
Dear Professor Kopel,
I am an attorney and I am looking to make money. I have inquired about working for asbestos and tobacco companies as I am willing to say anything, and do not care about people dying.
Can you get me an interview with the NRA?
Skalding, Esq.
MESSAGE TO DR. VOLOKH:
Is this insane, sick post by David Kopel really representative of what you want associated with the Volokh Conspiracy?
Prof. Volokh dropped the facade when he brought Prof. Blackman aboard. This blog's current content is precisely what Prof. Volokh wants -- and, I sense, what he wanted all along.
(An even better one. Roger McGuinn batting leadoff, with a handy backing band.)
thanks "Reverend" it's just 20 minutes of a donkey fucking a horse, DON'T CLICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Meanwhile, what happens when brave people are not disarmed or sidelined? https://wchstv.com/news/local/victim-hospitalized-in-charleston-shooting
208 shot dead in Chicago year to date, when's Sleepy and "Reverend" Al Anti-Semite-Sharpton going there? It's clear they need some "common sense" gun control measures!
I get it, they weren't cute hispanic children, but grown men with "Grills" and Criminal records as thick as Jerry Nadlers skin folds (get that image out of your head),
Frank
OK, since everyone's obsessed with guns, I'll play,
Seriously, the anti-guns are way more obsessed than I am, I have gun(s) like I have a jack/spare tire/roadside assistance, back up my files, take ASA 81mg daily with an HDL/LDL of 85....
Fellow Conspirators! what's the last gun you touched (OK, Reverend "fondled") and when?
I'll Start, S&W Model 19, 2.5" barrel, loaded with 38+P 115g JHP's
Only 6 shots, so you gotta make em count, in a body armor Sitch-u-Asian aim for an eye, (not between, bones thicker there, and hard to keep shooting with out an eye (and temporal lobe)
Frank "KD"
A little over the top, but it seems entirely accurate.
Anti-gun people are just as ignorant about guns and the individuals who own them as a racist is ignorant about the people the racist hates. There’s no attempt to reach any common ground or understanding. No empathy. No acknowledgement of innocent conduct. No tolerance.
Umm, many race-ists are very knowledgeable about the races they hate, it's why they hate them. Did Africans hate White Peoples before they were thrown into chains, shipped across the Atlantic in inhumane conditions, and to add insult to injury, made to work and live in SOUTH CAROLINA??!?!??!?!?
heck, I'm a 1/2 white jew from Georgia, and don't want to live there,
Frank
Unless you’re well over a hundred years old, you don’t know anyone like the people in your story.
I don't/didn't know Abraham Lincoln but there is this Invention called "History" where people's write things down for future generations to read, and I read "Uncle Tom's Cabin", and I've seen "Django Unchained" like 30 times (yes, a Tarantino fan, but only seen this movie when I fly Delta)
Frank
You debase yourself. Which takes some doing.
When people like you disapprove, that’s a mark of honor.
The solution is pretty obvious ..... MORE GUNS!!!!
Don't forget, you need ammo, don't complain, RELOAD!!!!!!!!!! (and pass the ammunition)
For years shot M1 Carbine surplus ammo with the "Lake City Army Ammunition Plant" on the box, always thought it was Lake City Florida, turns out it's in Missouri, Independence to be exact (Ironic, and appropriate) and still active, (HT Wikipedia)
"The manufacturing capabilities of the plant include: Small arms cartridges; components such as percussion and electric primer; pyrotechnics; and small caliber ammunition (5.56 mm; 7.62 mm; .50 caliber; and 20 mm). The plant also performs reliability testing on small caliber ammunition (5.56 mm; 7.62 mm; 9 mm, .22 caliber; .45 caliber; and .50 caliber) and demilitarization and disposal of small caliber ammunition and explosives"
What's abundantly clear is that the people here vilifying the NRA know little of the NRA's history or mission. If you are opposed to guns and gun organizations for whatever reason, you would do well to study your opposition a bit, and not come across to those who DO know as idiots or pure partisans.
Blood Libel. Satan.
Point left all you want, this is nuts.
This is truly profane, in the original sense of the word. Maybe wait at least until the schoolchildren have been buried before you start dabbing on "the haters."
The haters don't show any such respect, and there is no obligation to wait before responding to hatred.
"This was the same evil thinking as people who used the acts of foreign terrorists on September 11 as a pretext to attack and persecute patriotic and law-abiding American Muslims."
How about the evil thinking of the people who used the September 11 attacks as a pretext to attack and persecute the people of Iraq? Would anyone be surprised to learn that this Kopel clown was a cheerleader for that fraudulent and murderous war? Because he was:
- https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/course-mandela-supports-saddam-dave-kopel/
- https://davekopel.org/Media/RMN/2003/Deja-vu-in-a-liberated-Iraq.htm
As was the NRA, naturally.
How many Volokh Conspirators have arranged positions at better schools since becoming associated with this blog?
Orin Kerr did, but (1) he stopped posting much around the time Blackman arrived and (2) he was always an uneasy fit with the hard-right Conspirators.
Any others?
This contribution by Mr. Kopel demonstrates why the Volokh Conspiracy is -- and should be -- poison on a resume in all but the winguttiest corners of legal academia.
Wikipedia still indicates that Mr. Kopel claims to be a Democrat.
If that is true, I, as a former elected and appointed official of the Democratic Party, urge Mr. Kopel to get out of the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party does not need an ostensible adult who believe he is (or at least claims to believe he is) fighting Satan by being a well-paid mouthpiece for the NRA.
Why would a guy like this pretend to be a Democrat? The Republican Party is a better fit for such a person. The Libertarian Party also is a natural choice for a disaffected, antisocial misfit. In any event, the Democratic Party would be better off without David Kopel.
"We reject Satan and all his works."
Be sure to take your silly superstition with you.
Do you have no decency? No sense of shame?
It’s astonishing that a Jew would deliberately try to dilute the term “blood libel,” particularly in the current political climate
+1
Your ignorance of it doesn't mean it isn't real. See the comments on Orin Kerr's response for an example.
There have been many stupid comments from gun fetishists over the past two days. One of the ones that makes me want to vomit is the one repeated by many elected officials that promotes "hardening" of schools to prevent massacres, as if massacres don't occur in supermarkets, places of worship, nightclubs, and other places. Another one that makes me want to scream is the mantra about good guys with guns saving us from bad guys with guns. Can anyone explain to me: Were the chicken-shit, cowardly, incompetent police in the hallway outside the classrooms where 19 babies and their teachers were slaughtered the good guys or the bad guys?
I really wish people would hammer away at the narrative assumption here - this could have been avoided had it not been for that evil NRA and lack of gun control. Don't play into it, instead challenge it. The assumption is not the least bit true and the left darn well knows it.
Beside the fact that they are using 19 dead kids as a political prop to forward their agenda which is patently offensive and sick, the cure-all remedy of "gun control" was the talking point before we even knew any details about the shooting. I'm assuming the left here is not full of psychics that have foreknowledge of the future, so my best guess is that it was just disingenuous performance art hand wringing going on.
Also, how is the NRA to blame for any of this? They advocate for gun rights, not the murder of children. But, the left needs a "bad guy" and the NRA is a convenient one. Funny how you can't label groups for associative responsibility on the left like antifa or BLM. Those get discounted as just fringe individuals, bad apples among a barrel of good ones. But, when it comes to guns it is perfectly alright to hold every single lawful gun owner responsible and any advocacy organization to supports their rights. It is a nice little parlor trick the left uses there, but that is all it is.
Don't believe the slimy rhetoric and fake gnashing of teeth the left is doing here. Make them justify any infringements on your rights. Hold them responsible for their offensive and sick use of dead kids as political props. That is the way to win this fight.
I had to read 154 boozy comments about Jewish history, until someone finally landed a sane response in this thread.
"They advocate for gun rights, not the murder of children."
This is like saying, "Oh, I'm not in favor of traffic deaths! I just lobby against seat belts, speed limits, headlights and stop signs!"
Silly argument, worse comparison.
What do you think the "seat belts, speed limits, headlights and stop signs" are in the case of guns? Not the guns themselves; your bad analogy would have those be the cars themselves. So what are you comparing here?
Or are you just insulting gun owners by insisting they want to murder children?
LOL. Certainly speed limits and stop signs are apt. And certainly guns have safety features that prevent accidental harm. But I suppose you could refine the analogy thusly: "I'm not in favor of more auto-related deaths, I just lobby against driver instruction, driver's licenses, car insurance, traffic laws, vehicle inspection or anything else that in any way restricts my right to drive any type of motorized vehicle, safe or otherwise, at any time, in any place and in any manner I choose."
When and where are you allowed to operate any type of gun, safe or otherwise, at any time and at any place and in any manner you choose?
Hint: No where and never. The NRA and almost all gun owners support significant restrictions on time, place, and manner for usage. While you *might* find someone willing to say he should be able to shoot anything or anyone at any time, I doubt it.
But it's clear you are now just looking for excuses to be insulting, and you are getting even more absurd in your attacks as you post.
Show me. Show the NRA's support of gun restirctions.
You’re seriously arguing that if, say, the legal age for buying this stuff was 21, this kid could have bought the gun just as easily, it wouldn’t have made any difference at all?
That seems a stretch. Just because it might have been possible to obtain a gun anyway doesn’t mean it would have been as likely to happen.
I can't even tell what you're trying to say here, it makes so little sense. This is a policy debate. What BLM policies do you think are responsible, even indirectly, for the deaths of children?
The NRA's preferred policies are responsible for the ease of access to guns in this country, I mean that's practically a policy summary. And there's a clear line from gun access to gun crime. It's pretty silly to claim otherwise given all the examples we have in other countries.
No, the "parlor trick" of the right is to equate the NRA's policies with civil liberties. To the extent it's true, it doesn't change the fact that the policies are indirectly responsible for the violence... it's just a way of saying "too bad so sad" to the left (not unlike the left has been doing with abortion for 50 years). But it's not even all that true. The NRA's policies are far more extreme than the second amendment requires. They're fair game.
Okay, *this* is someone who should not be allowed to own a gun.
Where have all the Libertarians gone?
long time passing.
Where have all the Libertarians gone?
Long time ago.
Where have all the Libertarians gone?
Turned to nanny-state Progressives every one.
When will they ever learn?
I guess they'll never learn.
All of this hand wringing and gnashing of teeth over someone pointing out that people are unjustly bullying an advocacy organization and holding them personally responsible for the murder of children. It is sort of sick when you think about the fact that these are the same people using 19 dead kids as political props.
Perhaps someone should take a moment to point out the obvious here:
-Murder is already illegal and punishable by life imprisonment or death in most jurisdictions.
-Schools are already gun free zones, a policy the NRA supports (to some degree), and carrying a firearm into that area was also a violation of law.
-The "good guys" who had the guns and would be the only ones (except the bad guys who are violating he law with their illegal guns) appear to have let the gunman go for about an hour before intervening. Apparently they were too busy rescuing their own kids and tasing parents who were getting frustrated at the lack of response. Do you want to rely on these people for your exclusive source of protection (also note you have no constitutional right to police protection of government sponsored safety either)?
The whole "this only happens in America" meme is stupid and untrue as well. Violent crime is a regular feature even throughout the Western world. Guns may be used less frequently because they are not as available (and don't go pretending that even strict firearm regulation is going to generate the same result in America as it has in European countries with more stringent border protections and a longer history of firearm regulation), but that just gets replaced with knives, bats, bombs, and cars. Also because your average citizen has been denied an effective tool for self defense the rates of violent crime tend to be higher. One thing that fascinates many European visitors to the United States is how safe it is just walking around even "shady" parts of a city. There is a reason why there are "no go" zones in even big Western European cities and the "go" zones that have heavy tourist presence have armed cops every 15 feet.
If you want to use dead kids as political props and yell about how gun control is going to save all these lives, feel free. That is your right. But, don't go off the rails and accuse those who are concerned about a civil right of being essentially guilty of murder. The "guilt by association" thing going around is stupid, unproductive, and guess what is going to be used against you at some point in time. Don't say I didn't warn you.
I was done reading this when you compared the protests against NRA members to the killing of Jews. That is disgusting. Seriously, that crap is your argument?
Kopel didn’t compare the protest to killing, he said the “guilt by perversely imagined association” underpinned both, and it is this reflexive behavior of mobs and groupthink that he goes on to criticize. For a legal blog it surprising how deficient the reading comprehension is in the commentary, particularly in the realm of analyzing an argument.
The reference to Satan afoot diminishes the "legal" part almost entirely. Unless someone wants to try to contend that superstition is worthy of respect in reasoned debate, particularly legal debate.
This blog has become a childish, flaming shitstorm.
Door's thataway. To your Left.
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I was done reading this when you compared the protests against NRA members to the killing of Jews.
Apparently you gave up on trying to master the art of reading comprehension many years ago, as that is not at all what he said.
"a pretext to deny due process rights to peaceful persons who were accused of noncompliance with immigration laws."
Sorry, the only due process trespassers deserve is the opportunity to either leave or be removed.
Or do liberaltarians like Mr. Kopel no longer believe in either citizenship or private property?