Essentially, they boil down to the claim that the LSAT does not objectively measure ability because children from wealthy backgrounds can more easily afford elite prep courses and personalized tutoring.
It certainly seems unfair that such a significant portion of the admissions criteria favors the wealthy. But even critics of the LSAT concede that the same is true of nearly every other component of the admissions process. The wealthy can hire tutors to improve their GPA and snag better recommenders. And they can pack in more extracurriculars because they are less distracted by resource requirements.
In fact, by one reckoning, the poor benefit significantly from the fact that the LSAT is such a heavily weighted portion of the application calculus. Rather than hiring a cavalcade of tutors for each class or making time for a mountain of extracurriculars, limited resources can be focused on a single, highly important test. Moreover, the Law School Admission Council (LSAC) periodically analyzes various methods of LSAT preparation. LSAC's data show that among the most effective is the organization's own $99 prep material. Sure, that's an expense, but it's hardly out of reach for most applicants. And sure enough, LSAC—which administers the LSAT—notes that doing away with the test has been shown to work against minorities and the economically disadvantaged.
LSAT opponents know all this. So why do they still single out the LSAT?
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The LSAT needs to publich all its reliability and validity statistics. It needs to publish its scores by all demographic characteristics. These facts would generate litigation to put the test out of business.
The lawyer ended the use of the IQ test, not to exclude, but to include for special extra services and help. The IQ is the most validated test in history. The score at 7 predicts income at age 50. That is not allowed to be used anymore.
Does Eugene want to attack a real garbage test, that has hideous impact on people's futures and income, question the Bar exams. Those are total, anti-scientific garbage. If someone has passed law school, a whole bunch of law profs believed the student had performed well enough to hit the street.
As with all professional education, nothing covered in law school will ever be used. And nothing you really need to perform a profession on a daily basis, will have been covered. They are garbage hazing rituals. As with all skills only praxis has any value. All professions should just convert to apprenticeship. End the garbage make work of of these rent seeking schools. Eugene, of course, would need to be fired if his school closed. He would then have to get a real job serving the rule of law.
I looked at a practice LSAT book. I believe the test would wipe me out. Yet, I am genius in the law. Why? Because of the preservation of my high school education despite my legal training. All high school knowledge has to be wiped out by legal training due to its indoctrination into supernatural and garbage doctrines from the Medieval era. I attended law school old, and was inure to that effect. Eugene attended law school young and became a clueless denier of what is self evident to anyone on a bus or slurping coffee at a dinner. The lawyer profession is raking in $trillion. It will never give up its rent seeking haul without violence.
David, your high school education and ordinary common sesnse were wiped out. You succumbed to the lawyer training. You believe in mind reading, in forecasting, and that standard of conduct should be set by a fictitious character. You are now stupider than a kid in Life Skills learning to eat with a spoon. He would make a far more effect Justice of the Supreme Court than the current Ivy indoctrinated dumbasses. He would be far more successful at reaching the self stated goals of every law subject. It's a tragedy.
The bigger tragedy than what happened to your intellect and to your ethics is what you are doing to this country. The lawyer profession is the font of all social pathology. Get rid of this toxic profession and end crime, bastardy, poverty, accidents, poor education.
What are the supernatural elements of legal training?
Law is not about truth or justice. It is about precepts and what others have previously derived from those precepts. Logic is valuable in this sort of task. The lsat is a bunch of logic puzzles. The same sort of stuff you'd see in 100-300 level undergraduate logic courses, usually in the philosophy dept.
I'd want any lawyer I hire to be good at formal and informal logic. Even ordinary bivalent sentential logic is not intuitive. Lawyers need this training, for the same reason that LPNs get extra math training, so they don't mess up a dose of medicine.
Oh hell no. That is their fake masking ideology. They are about procedure to keep getting our $trillion in rent seeking and returning nothing of value.
Bar exams are very different from the LSAT. Bar exams are more about rote memorization of large amounts of material. It's less intelligence and ability and more busy makework. I'm told that's more akin to medical school. To be fair, the practice of law can be like that.
If it were me, I think the bar exam (and law school exams in general) should be replaced with closed universe fact patterns, required written briefs, and oral defenses. Think of it as the MPT on steroids. That will show you who has the tools to make it as a lawyer. Let's take a family law example. Suppose there is a case about spousal support and equitable distribution in a non-community property state with no children involved. No Judge is going to ask you to explain how your answer would be different if the parties had children.
I'm not sure what I would do. I doubt the bar exams serve much useful purpose. It might be nice for the lawyers if the bar exams and the schools had a protectionist economic function, like the AMA and doctors and dentists do for themselves. But they don't. Every year law schools and bars churn out more than twice as many newly minted attorneys as will ever actually work as attorneys. I guess maybe it is good that a licensed attorney shows some modicum of knowledge about the law in their state before being minted.
I invite criminal procedure students to spend a half day in traffic court. That is where criminal procedure is in operatin millions of times a year. Nothing they covered will they ever see. Nothing they see will have been covered. The same is true for med school. You have to memorize a 3000 page book every 12 weeks, then nothing you have memorized will you remember, nor ever need. You will will learn from patients and from doing their care. That is why all professional education should be apprenticeships. Imagine how much more and faster you will learn anatomy once you know you will be faced with an open body at surgery tomorrow at 7 AM. That surgical fields will look like nothing like the pictures in the book, and will be 10 times more disorienting and confusing. The same applies to mining, bridge building at a real location, the haze of accounting bookkeeping maintained by a business, the problems of parishioners brought to a pastor.
Get rid of time and money wasting schools. Schools are a total scam. Eugene is in denial about his being a scammer. He is teaching supernatural doctrines that are illegal in our secular nation. He is making kids memorize shit and testing them on shit they will never use. He is also failing to teach what they will desperately need to just survive in the profession and to barely serve their clients, once on the street. Why, he is not doing that himself, being a lawyer. He is a scholar. Clients are collateral nuisance to him.
I agree that schools are a scam. To fix that, all you need to do is stop giving them trillions of federal taxpayer dollars. Most of which takes the form of student "loans."
On their third birthday, each child shall have placed before them the seven objects: a hammer, a sword, a bolt of cloth, an abacus, a spatula, a speculum, and a mortarboard hat. Those that touch one of the first six shall be taken away and apprenticed per their choice, and returned to their village in their eighteenth year, should they reach that age. Those that touch the seventh shall be taken and drowned.
LSAC stopped publishing LSAT demographics after they reported that in 2004, only 29 black test-takers scored over 170 of the LSAT nationwide. To put that in perspective, the 25th percentile of Harvard's incoming class had a score of 170.
Not just racial quotas. The removal of objective measures means only subjective measures are left, which can then be used in whatever way serves the agendas and rent-seeking of those atop the societal bureaucracy.
Also, I have no disillusion that they'll bend their discretion to helping minorities. Minority quotas would be at best virtue signalling (while they fill those seats with wealthy foreigners where possible), while they direct most resources towards things like legacy admissions and children of their friends.
This conspiracy of all racial quotas no merit is some insane VDARE white replacement shit if you think about it for even a moment.
Pointing out a way we measure merit is bad is not a sign you want to get rid of merit entirely.
Though you still believe in The Bell Curve, so you have some real thoughts about race and merit that are not shared by most policies nor the public.
Standardized tests more measure achievement than aptitude.
I don't think I need to answer that question - pointing out something is bad doesn't mean you need to offer a better option.
What about a portfolio-based system, like art school? It might change how pre-law is taught, and it might encourage more pre-law paralegalling, which would not go awry.
But yeah, I dunno. Our meritocracy is not currently measuring actual aptitude very well, even though we treat it like it does.
===========================
Actual aptitude is not quite the same as future results. A support system/resources can make crap aptitude get at least average results. Is that okay? Should we base our education system solely on outcomes, which include the additional resources well-off people have? Or should it be more a stripping away and seeing what your talents looks like?
I'm not sure, but our system aims at the first as best it can, but seems to treat it's results like the second.
No, that's not always the question. Saying the system isn't doing what it says, and we need to look at how to change that does not require I have the upshot ready to go.
"What about a portfolio-based system, like art school? It might change how pre-law is taught, and it might encourage more pre-law paralegalling, which would not go awry."
How to demonstrate Alcohol tolerance is left as an exercise for the reader.
You have half the comments here
This is an area of interest for me!
If it was required for admission to law school? Yes. (Not defending it as a good idea or not, just acknowledging that the prep system would shift to support whatever the requirements are).
I'm not sure a portfolio would be as neutral as a standardized test, tbh. The wealthy would have better connections and better mentoring, leading to better portfolios.
This already describes standardized tests like the ACT/SAT. They are not neutral with regard to social class, which in today's world is also tied to race.
For graduate tests, which I think would be somewhat different, (GMAT, LSAT), if the student has had an opportunity to work in their field first, gained professional income, and thus can afford the prep. My understanding of law school is that a large percentage of students go straight from their undergraduate into grad school and do not pick up a career in between. For business majors, it's often the opposite.
There's a bit of a problem with saying that a test is not neutral with regard to social class. What does that mean?
Ideally, what it means is that the measurement of what the test is supposed to be measuring is contaminated by a component that varies, instead, with social class. That "instead" is critical, because it may happen that the thing being measured actually DOES correlate with social class.
But determining this objectively requires a better measure of what the test is supposed to be measuring, than the test itself. If you had that, why wouldn't you use it, instead of the test?
Less ideally, what it may mean is that somebody has made an a priori assumption of how what the test is supposed to measure is distributed relative to social class, but that the test is more correlated with social class than this a priori assumption.
Hence why i said 'as neutral', which acknowledges the standardized test isn't necessarily neutral, just that I think it's probably closer to neutral than a portfolio approach would be.
My god. I already can't stand how much the legal profession is filled with privileged kids of lawyer families and blatant nepotism. Now you want make entry into law school dependent on who can write the best legal briefs before they even start?
Why not just put up a sign saying "no poor kids allowed"?
I don't think I need to answer that question - pointing out something is bad doesn't mean you need to offer a better option.
compare:
In The Uses of Pessimism and the Danger of False Hope, the philosopher Roger Scruton outlines the fallacies underlying [the radical] mindset, such as “the best case fallacy,” which “imagines the best outcome and assumes that it need consider no other,” and “the utopian fallacy,” which insists that the perfect is the enemy of the good. These can be summed up under the rubric of “unscrupulous optimism,” a concept originally coined by the philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer. Assuming that intentions translate directly into results, radicals tend to be unscrupulous optimists in that they operate on the premise that well-intentioned radical change, however destructive, can only lead to improvement. They forget, however, that “human societies may retrogress disastrously,” as the economist and social theorist Thomas Sowell puts it in his analysis of Marxism. “Ignoring the dangers of retrogression can mean sliding into the belief that ‘nothing could be worse’ than the existing society being criticized.” This belief is reinforced by a tendency to compare the status quo not to history but to an imaginary future of human perfection. Any society that falls short of this fantasy is seen as an abomination. (source)
In the same piece, the author talks about “radicals’ unscrupulously optimistic assumption that the existing social order can be overthrown without detriment to the social fabric and human wellbeing.”
When I worked in university admissions for a religious private, we looked at ACT/SAT scores versus grades. It turns out, for that university at least, ACT/SAT weren't as predictive of success as high school GPA. ACT/SAT scores better correlated to ZIP code (read: family financial status).
In a time of declining student populations (a dip in the birth rate 18 years ago), barriers to attendance can impact the school's financial stability. You can still use merit to select students without relying on standardized testing.
You’re definitely in a phase where you’re poo pooing everyone and accusing everyone who doesn’t agree with you of being a conspiracy nut.
So if they’re trashing all of the merit measurements how is that not getting rid of merit entirely? And you’re ridiculing everyone with the White Replacement tag whether they actually believe in it or not, but tossing away merit these days is a lot more frequently Yellow Replacement, which everyone on the left would like to just sweep under the rug.
Come on, bevis, 'I'd assume it's part of a comprehensive drive to eliminate ALL measures of merit, so that none remain to expose covert racial quotas' is a conspiracy theory. It has no support, it relies on assumption explicitly, and it posits a broad-based coordinated invidious agenda.
Oh, and it's an agenda to keep the white man down.
It's pretty bad.
I'm one of those people who is quite skeptical of our current merit measurement system. I don't know that I want to tear it down without a plan, but I think we need a project to look at how we can replace it.
And if it starts with targeting marginal stuff like the SAT and LSAT, so be it.
Some people strongly believe in the desirability of "affirmative action," or in creating groups of people within institutions that intentionally have certain racial makeups. This could be anything from a student body, to a church congregation or leadership group, to a workforce or nonprofit board. And there could be any number of slightly or substantially different motivations for such beliefs and practices, although they generally seem to be characterized by objectives such as promoting racial reconciliation and harmony, or of "helping" groups of people in a way that is perceived to be useful or needed, or of obtaining a "diversity" of viewpoints and experiences that is perceived to be useful. Such objectives may overlap or they may not, and there may be others. If such people believe the LSAT gets in the way of these objectives why wouldn't they oppose it?
What are covert racial quotas but an attempt to topple whites from their perch atop the currently formulated meritocracy?
Affirmative Action is an attempt to spot-weld known issues with the meritocracy. It's better than nothing, but a real systemic examination would be better.
Feel free to look into any of the studies on IQ or on bias in standardized testing. Or on the systemic issues with admissions criteria, and who that favors.
But why read those when you can defend our meritocracy. After all, it was kind to you, right?
"look into any of the studies on IQ or on bias in standardized testing. Or on the systemic issues with admissions criteria, and who that favors. "
S0,
Let's look at the GSAT in physics for graduate school entry. Five years ago - taking the distribution scores of white students as a baseline - scores for Asians are skewed 50 points higher, scores for Hispanics 50 points lower and scores of black students 100 yet lower.
As ethnic classifications are based on self-identification.
I certainly didn’t say that. He’s chasing goblins with this replacement stuff.
And there are intersectional/crt/anti-racist publications and presentations that assert that meritocracy is a component of white supremacy. But sure, I’M the one that’s engaged in conspiracy thinking. Not the people you’re defending. No, not them.
I think the issue here is semantic. And it is a problem I have with CRT folks.
They white supremacy they talk about is systemic. Just a system that favors white people. For lots of reasons - wealth concentration, unconscious bias, geographic distribution. etc. etc.
It is not the individual prejudice against nonwhites that you and I were taught was the definition.
There is no conspiracy of people - CRT folks are not Farrakhan - just a system that was made to fit white needs not being well-fit when now it's being employed to serve a more divers society.
You can think that's wrong, but it's not a conspiracy theory.
Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)3 years ago
The idea that there is an organized effort to discredit meritocracy is conspiracy theory, but actually engaging in an organized effort to discredit meritocracy is not conspiracy.
Right, the same universities that actually did implement quotas couldn't possibly have concealing quotas in mind as they adopt opaque 'holistic' admissions policies. [/sarc]
Standardized tests measure a lot of things, but they're well correlated with success in schools, and that's their purpose: Avoiding wasting scarce spaces at a university, and scarce student resources to boot, on studies that are likely to fail.
This is an effort to throw away useful information which is telling the university things they don't want to know, because they don't want them to be true.
Oh, it's possible, but you don't get to declare it's true without any evidence other than you don't like the policies.
Wealth correlates to success in schools. Standardized tests purport to be a measurement independent of wealth. But by all evidence this is not true.
If you want to go all the way to 'all that matters is success in school' then welcome to a caste system, where the rich get the good education and jobs, and the smart but disfavored need to be truly extraordinary to get a chance.
I like a bit more actual individual merit in my meritocracy than that.
Sure, two things that correlate to a third naturally tend to correlate to each other. If I measure your height with a tape measure, that measurement will tend to correlate with wealth, because wealth leads to better prenatal nutrition, and thus greater height.
That doesn't mean my tape measure is measuring your bank balance, or that finding a way to stop my tape measure from correlating with wealth would improve it as a tape measure.
If the purpose of the test is to determine how likely you are to graduate, and thus not waste your tuition and space in the university, I don't see how it can possibly avoid correlating with anything that contributes to your preparedness; Native intelligence, diligence, the accumulated effects of intensive study. Some of those factors are going to be products of or causes of wealth, but they're still predictive of academic success.
You may have some moralistic preference for admitting people who achieved the same level of preparedness despite lacking various advantages. But to the extent you alter the admissions system to reflect those preferences, you must expect that resources will be wasted on students who fail to graduate, and some of those resources will be the students'!
Are you going to find some way to make them whole after wasting their tuition and several years of their life in order that you can feel better about the admissions process? Or do they just have to suck it up and suffer so you can feel better about it?
likleyhood to graduate is not the criterion schools claim to be using the LSAT for.
And as I noted, that criterion has some serious negative social impacts. And goes against a lot of America's self-image regarding individual opportunity.
The solution for people making it to school without the resources or support structure to succeed is to get them the resources to succeed, not cut them out of the system.
You really are arguing for a caste system where those with resources get education and those without don't. Not hard to see where that positive feedback loop ends.
"...likleyhood to graduate is not the criterion schools claim to be using the LSAT for."
Apologies for inserting a comment here -- it's not my fight -- but in medical school admissions the use of the MCAT is explicitly intended to select for students who will survive their first two years. My university also quite explicitly uses SAT/ACT scores as a measure of the likelihood that a student will pass their freshman year courses, and will return for a second year, which is one of the major variables used in assessing and ranking colleges. If law schools do not use the LSAT in the same way, I am not sure what the purpose of the LSAT would be....
What do you think the whole student loan forgiveness racket is about? The fanatics like Sarcastr0 duped people into taking loans out for classes they weren't prepared for and now they plan on making them whole by shafting the rest of society (and give their own kids free money to boot!).
welcome to a caste system, where the rich get the good education and jobs, and the smart but disfavored need to be truly extraordinary to get a chance - you mean like Asians trying to get into Ivy League school?
I don't think you read very well. I said the system we have today is exactly one where "the smart but disfavored need to be truly extraordinary to get a chance", nad proved it, with numbers.
You seem to think that would be the (presumably objectionable) outcome if Brett's recommendations were adopted, yet it is what we have today, under your favored system.
"Wealth correlates to success in schools. Standardized tests purport to be a measurement independent of wealth. But by all evidence this is not true."
You're claiming a causation from a correlation while ignoring all confounding factors as well as the fact that you're looking at averages. Self-selection is one: why are foreign students much better than domestic students? Foreign students don't experience the same societal pressure that they must attend college, even if they anticipate working a job that doesn't really need a degree. Student athletes come from all walks of life but don't necessarily care about their GPA if all they want is a shot at professional sports; a really dumb 18 year old won't make it into many colleges unless they play sports. Heritability, both genetic and not, is another: some families win the genetic and values lottery and pass down stable traits and attitudes, both of which are known to influence wealth and be reflected in standardized tests.
A lot of the causation is self-evident. Legacy support structures from legacy wealth and access to elite institutions. Access to courses and even individual coaching.
I'm also not sure you're right about foreign students not experiencing as much social pressure to attend college.
And I *REALLY* want to push back on your genetic 'stable traits and values' postulate. Values are not genetic. You're not clear what traits you're talking about, but individual familial mental traits are not proven to be determinative of much, given standard variations and environmental factors.
Not a lot of research into eugenics these days, to be fair.
"Access to courses and even individual coaching."
Parents in general (and white parents in particular) tend to get special courses and tutors for students that aren't 'measuring up to their potential'; they don't pump up already high scores.
"I'm also not sure you're right about foreign students not experiencing as much social pressure to attend college."
Practically ever American under 30 has been pressured to believe college is essentially inevitable if they want a 'good' job. That does not occur at the same level in any other country, and in many countries where we skim off the best-of-the-best (Latin America and the Middle East especially) they do not take the same approach. You only go to college if there's something special you want to do, you're really good at something, or you have the money to take some leisure time.
"And I *REALLY* want to push back on your genetic 'stable traits and values' postulate. Values are not genetic."
They are heritable, whether or not they are genetic. If you want to push back on that you need to understand that is what they are deemed in studies on heritability. For instance, sexual orientation is less heritable than attitudes towards homosexuality, even though it's a more 'genetic' trait.
"individual familial mental traits are not proven to be determinative of much"
Depends on what you're thinking of exactly but you're wrong. We know that bipolar spectrum disorders are fairly heritable (some very much so) and that they also have substantial lifetime effects. Schizophrenia is very much genetic and runs in families and has a very noticeable effect on outcome.
Parents in general (and white parents in particular) tend to get special courses and tutors for students that aren't 'measuring up to their potential'; they don't pump up already high scores.
This is not how the parents I know act. Every little extra chance matters! It's not a cost-benefit game.
-Our foreign student superstars come from India and Asia. You're looking at the wrong countries.
-Going from 'stability' as a genetic trait to mental illness as a genetic trait is really normalizing the deviance.
Still don't like heritability either - it basically says some groups are just better; the rich deserve their money, most likely, etc. etc. If true, we should be working to explode that anti-social mobility effect, not embrace it.
"Still don't like heritability either - it basically says some groups are just better; the rich deserve their money, most likely, etc. etc."
Pretty much. Reality doesn't care if people don't like it, it is what it is regardless. The rain falls on the just and unjust alike, but the stupid end up wetter because they don't bring umbrellas.
Some more bad news: Beautiful/handsome people tend to be smarter than average, too, for basic biological reasons. (The same prenatal influences that make you ugly make you stupid, basically.)
" If true, we should be working to explode that anti-social mobility effect, not embrace it."
Not clear to me what you mean by that. What IS an anti-social mobility effect, anyway?
If you want to measure merit for a profession, you have to measure performance.
Universities that insist on grading on a curve grossly distort that. Policies in public high schools do likewise.
Eventually one may get to see a person's work product. That is a terrible time to decide she's a shitty doctor.
You either believe in racial discrimination or you don't.
You Sarc, believe in racial discrimination. Why? I suspect ... deep in your heart ... that you don't really believe that black people are truly equal to you.
Really?!
I predict (but this is easy because it's already happening) that admissions will be handled by artificial intelligence systems that merge personal life, high school performance, ability to pay and other factors (some of which might be objectionable like race (white), wealth, and gender (male)). I don't mean to start a race fight over this here, but rather point to current experience with AI that is trained on data which, unintentionally, conveys the same biases already inherent in our system.
"but rather point to current experience with AI that is trained on data which, unintentionally, conveys the same biases already inherent in our system."
Or perhaps conveys an objectively correct result rather than a politically correct result, and for reasons of ideology the people charged with evaluating the results are barred from ever admitting that the latter isn't the former, that a totally non-racist process wouldn't produce the mandated numbers.
Of all the standardized tests I've taken the LSAT was the most fair and the most valid. It didn't require any prior knowledge but thoroughly measured an ability which is crucial for a law student (and a lawyer), namely clear thinking (what the more pompous types call "thinking like a lawyer").
The point of the LSAT is supposed to be that a high score correlates positively with doing well in law school. The problem is that these tests make it easy to identify racial discrimination by those who control entrance. It looks like the Supreme Court might be getting ready to crack down on such racial discrimination. If so, those who want to retain it must obfuscate their selection process, and this requires getting rid of the LSAT. Saying that Asians have unappealing personalities doesn't seem to be working.
The relevant question is whether the test identifies ability and intelligence. If it does, and if ability and intelligence tend to be higher in persons from richer families, the fact that persons from richer families tend to do better on the test is indicative of the test's reliability in identifying ability and intelligence.
Whatever the LSAT measures it isn't ability and intelligence. It seems to measure pattern recognition; which makes it a good predictor of success at issue spotting in law school exams. It doesn't measure slower (analytic) thinking at all.
Those that need a tutor should likely be considering a different career.
Based on the LSAT 25 years ago (perhaps it has changed dramatically), it obviously fails to cover everything a lawyer should have a talent for. However those that it does cover are important and if someone can't ace it with just a few practice tests they are unlikely to have the "right stuff".
The LSAT at that time struck me a bit like doing an initial screening of quarterbacks for your NFL team by checking if they have at least one arm.
What’s the correlation between “academic success in law school” and becoming a competent attorney? We’ve learned there’s almost no correlation between where one attends law school and competence, but is there one between class rank and competence?
Law school academic performance seems to correlate highly with being a diligent and conscientious associate who is willing to bill a lot of hours. Adjust for rank of law school and it seems to correlate with the type of competence expected from such an associate.
I remember a science fiction short story ages ago which postulated a world-wide test in some field using some kind of equipment, all irrelevant to the story, which was about one of the students taking the test who was really pissed about having to deal with a machine which was a generation or two out of date, and not in the best of condition to start with; he spent half his time fixing the damn thing!
Afterwards, griping about it with one of the exam proctors, he found the truth: he had already been pegged as better than most, and the clunky test machine was intentional, to see how well he could think for himself and solve problems not in the book. Most technicians were only good enough to solve ordinary problems with the best tools, not enough imagination or initiative to deal with uncomfortable reality.
I remember this story every time I hear of grumbles about tests. In the real world, of course, the people portrayed in the story as imaginative and innovative are not recognized by smart bureaucrats, but by themselves, not being content with boring normality. Elon Musk is the prime example today. Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos were one-shot wonders who will never have another brilliant off-the-wall in their lives. But none would have been found by tests, either the current kind or the kind in the story.
Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos were one-shot wonders who will never have another brilliant off-the-wall in their lives. But none would have been found by tests, either the current kind or the kind in the story.
Bill Gates went Harvard, Jeff Bezos was the valedictorian of his high school class and graduated with honors from Princeton, and Elon Musk went to one of the most presitigious high schools in South Africa before emigrating to the U.S., where he also graduated from an Ivy League school. Seems like the traditional methods of academic sorting treated them just fine?
Elon Musk is the prime example today. Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos were one-shot wonders who will never have another brilliant off-the-wall in their lives.
Extremely objective analysis going on in this post.
But your broader point that testing is not a great indicator of merit is not wrong.
As someone who tends to test above my actual merit, I think we need more apprenticeship models to deal with those who test below their actual abilities.
Aptitude is only part of the story, obviously. If you don't have at least the threshold level of it you're screwed, but once you pass that threshold necessary to comprehend the material, success is as much about diligence as it is aptitude. They trade off to a certain extent at the mid-levels, but the highest performers always rate high in both.
It's absolutely a continuum of the two. Average comprehension workaholics get stuff done, and lazy geniuses are a thing.
Plus, of course, each particular endeavor has it's own mix of how much you can grind it out and how much just having it click matters.
Diligence/dedication is absolutely part of the merit mix, but how do you measure it?
Standardized tests don't include anything about dedication. Grades do, but occluded by a lot of other stuff.
I actually think it would improve things if you could separately measure intelligence and diligence. Different teaching strategies might work better depending on the students' balance of these two factors.
Apocryphal story warning, but since we're talking about him, I heard that Bill Gates's school did exactly this. His goal was to get the highest possible marks on the quality of the work, and the lowest possible marks for effort.
Use hidden cameras in the check-in area before the exam, and open check-in 5 minutes later than the previously announced time.
At the college level we've got 10 minutes between classes, sometimes the prior class ends five minutes late. During this five minutes you will see some students lined up single file outside the room. I am not making this up. These are pre-meds, the most diligent people in the world, true believers that success comes from getting all the boxes checked. People of normal diligence show up during the next five minutes. People of below normal diligence show up after the bell rings.
Anyway, do the same thing for the LSAT/GRE/GMAT and you'll kill two birds with one test.
Absent the near-slavery and monopolistic guild aspects, I'd love to see apprenticing make a comeback. I gather "reading for the law" used to be somewhat similar, and medicine also had something similar. Both grew to the point that rote memorization became necessary, but for different reasons. But if there's room for practical nursing (? -- not sure of the field's name), there's room for even more diversification and practical care, and I imagine that drawing up wills and simple contracts don't require 3 years of Harvard law school.
I've seen people not liking standardized tests generally. I don't know that there's an especial focus on the LSAT, other than maybe by legal academics.
The problem with the LSAT, if there is one, is that it favors pattern recognition over analysis. It's probably a good predictor of success in law school, since rapid issue spotting is crucial in law school tests. It might be a better world if different kinds of thinkers made it to elite law schools. But you can't pin that on the test.
I personally found it a very beatable test by just doing tons of practice exams.
The people who say that they're not good standardized test takers generally aren't that bright. Leftists hate these tests because they expose the lie that most of success is driven by nurture.
Only got into med school because of my Idiot Savant-esqe (more Idiot than Savant) MCAT scores, which was good, because all they cared about were great test scores, and fortunately, took it the year before they required a written essay (always prefer Oral), which is why I can't remember stupid grammatical rules, "Reverend".
I here most med schools are pass/fail now (of course they have "Honors" "High Honors" which is just another way of grading A-D, but most of the competitive specialties are filled with Ass-burgers who make "Rainman" look like Robin Williams (hated "Patch Adams")
If you want to know if you have a good Vascular Surgeon say to him(don't say it to a her)
"As Sally Lay Frigid, Oscars Penis Slipped In"
any Vascular Cutter worth his salt will smile, and know what you're referring to, a bad one (or a modern day Frank William Abagnale Jr) won't.
I could tell you, BadLib, but then I'd have to kill you (no 18 USC 871 rap, I'm just a big "Top Gun" fan)
I could say, go to Med School, and you should learn it in first year Gross Anatomy, but not certain they tell teach it, waste of time you see, they can Google it on their phones, and we can't spare any time away from "Sensitivity issues in Sexual Reassignment Surgery (Don't call it an "Add-a-dick-t0-me")
But I'll let a few more of this August Company weigh in....
Frank " Flop, Chop, and Drop" or is it "Drop, Flop and Chop?"
I prefer the question, how many of these procedures have you done? If the answer is 10000, pick that person no matter your bias. First, the person was proven and trusted with all those cases. That person stopped making mistakes 5000 cases ago. That person will have seen what could go wrong and had to learn to cope with that. That person will be fast and effective with muscle memory drivng the procedure, which includes the entire smooth running team, as well.
Clayton Kozinski, the Kavanaugh nepotism dude with the disgraced parent? He's graduated from Federalist Society meetings to writing for zombie clinger publication Newsweek?
not at all, I'm guessing. I'm just surprised there's a test, don't they take everyone? Hah-vud law accepts over 500 per year, the Med School (doesn't require the MCAT, go figure) 165, guess we need more Lawyers than Physicians
Not really, as neither of us are lawyers (are/were( ahh, those embarrassing "Buggery" charges) you??) School, Year of Graduation, and Your Current Bar Qualifications?? (I'm a Doctor we call them Licenses) You bust one everyone else's School, what was yours (Mine? Auburn for College(never heard of "Undergrad" until I was an "Overgrad") Medical College of Georgia for Med School (It's got some corporate Bullshit name now)
Both Pubic (i.e. Cheap) Schools, still suckered, I mean, applied to have Uncle Sugar pay my way through,
Being "rich" is going to, on average, better prepare you for law school than being "poor". Being rich gives you more time, more resources, better connections, etc. And if you're better prepared, you're going to do better, all other things being equal.
That in no way means that you can't do well in law school if you're poor. Or that you automatically will do well if you're rich. But money helps.
About 25 years ago I considered switching careers from software development and going to law school.
I bought the books that were old copies of the LSAT and started with the tests (I think there were sections about "how to take the test" and "tips and tricks" but I don't recall and know I didn't read those sections).
I ran through one full test and didn't bother to score it and thought "this isn't too hard" and "learned the ropes" by doing so. I quickly noticed such conveniences as everyone's first name in some types of problems starting with A, B, C, D, etc. and being unique in the first character which made it easier to write the boolean logic etc. without dumb errors. Then I did a couple more tests and timed and scored them getting nearly 100% (and, there were a couple of problems that I got wrong that I would argue were ambiguous).
At that point I decided that I probably didn't want to be a lawyer as if anything much below a perfect score was qualifying (and it seemed to be at some pretty decent schools), I really didn't want to deal with such people across the table every day when in practice (I was interested in practicing and had no interest in academia).
Perhaps the LSAT has changed over the years, but anyone who couldn't get a very good score on the LSAT just after two or three practice tests should really have considered another career back then. Just as many who rushed into "computer science" in the mid/mid-late 90's but had no passion and little talent for it (seeking money generally) should have picked different careers.
In the Rittenhouse case my view was reinforced when the Judge claimed that the law behind the charge against Rittenhouse regarding illegal possession, due to age and type of weapon, of his firearm was "confusing" before finally deciding to dismiss it. No, the law isn't confusing AT ALL. It may be bad policy, it may suffer from bad drafting, it may not cover all cases that some who passed it thought it should -- but it's not confusing and Rittenhouse should never have been charged. On my first reading of the three(?) intertwined sections, a simple truth table made it clear that Rittenhouse's age (at the time of the supposed offense) meant the law didn't apply to him. That's the sort of fools I couldn't tolerate running into and working with/against every day - esp. if they happened to be a judge I was before.
It can take a bit of time to learn the logic games section and generally to practice and get your mind in the groove, as the time constraints mean you have to go very fast, but it typically doesn't take very long to max your potential. I sat in one of the proctored practice tests cold and didn't do great, but after a few weeks of studying got a near perfect score on the real test.
I wonder how many Law School applicants actually take expensive prep courses or otherwise prepare for the LSAT. It seems to me that the more well off students are likely are to have been exposed to situations and experiences which give them an advantage over candidates who are not similarly exposed.
By well off I don't really mean rich, many educated parents of moderate means make a strong effort to expose their children to a wide range of experiences and encourage intellectual pursuits.
I am a licensed architect by profession so there is no analogue to the LSAT in my profession, however there is a near universal licensing examination and back when I was in line for it I could pretty much tell who would be able to pass the examination without too much trouble.
Can't say much for the LSAT in particular but for other widely-used standardized tests the impacts of tutoring and paid materials are wildly overstated. Rich people get tutors for their children and enroll them in special class because they're already doing badly, not to improve their already great standing. Outside of Asians (who apparently have a better handle on when the prep is worth it) private tutoring and special classes are correlated with worse scores, not better. Public test prep classes do improve outcomes, though I doubt that matters so much for the LSAT.
LSAT does not objectively measure ability because children from wealthy backgrounds can more easily afford elite prep courses and personalized tutoring.
I immigrated to the U.S. at the age of 15. I'd been in the country for a little over five years when I took the LSAT. Not being "from a wealthy background," I didn't have "elite prep courses" or "personalized tutoring." I did pick up a standard LSAT booklet at a law school admission office and went over it carefully. (It had one or two sample questions.) I did fine.
As I see it, there's nothing wrong with LSAT. If you have trouble with LSAT, you'll probably have trouble in law school, trouble passing the bar exam, trouble practicing law.
The people who complain about LSAT are the same crowd who complain about "inequality." A does better than B -- how unfair! We must do something!
Worse, the LSAT is taken by college juniors/seniors. Why don't those enlightened institutions use their DIE funds to provide free LSAT prep? Seriously. They can't blame "racist" municipalities and "under funded" school districts for inequalities at this level.
They need that money to manufacture more "racism" so that they can then demand more money to fight "racism". That is how this entire race hustle scheme works. BLM needs more mansions and that money doesn't just fall out of trees.
" Re: all the people posting here who say they found the LSAT contemptuously easy: "
How many of these 'it was too easy' guys sound like big-firm partners?
I had hundreds of partners. The handful that sounded anything like the average Volokh Conspiracy fan were buried down in the intellectual property section, their interaction with clients as limited as could reasonably be arranged, their lack of origination volume made more tolerable by miniscule practice development budgets.
They were awkward, but some were quite interesting in conversation if you were willing to make a bit of an effort and a few allowances.
(Believe it or not, that song was written by this guy. That might be the oddest combo platter in recorded popular music.)
>Okay. I give up and Google didn't help.
>
>I assume that phrase is a memory device for proper execution of >some aspect of vascular procedures - but for what?
Congratulations! now "Two Zebras Bit my Crotch!" not really, but it's one a Neurologist or ENT Surgeon should know.
My favorite one was "Fuck Little Titties", sort of a local one, dude who came up with that is one of top Dermatologists in the world (or at least Tennessee)
NFL should stop measuring "Fo-Fo" Times, Vertical Jump, Bench Press, and their Intelligence test, Der Vunder-Lick, no wonder there's such a lack of Diversity!
LSAT is like democracy, it's a terrible system, but still better than the rest.
Like opponents of democracy, opponents of the LSAT are mainly opposed to it when it generates outcomes they dislike.
It's not that hard to pass the LSAT with a $99 study guide. For the cost of a tank of gas you can improve your life. If you think being a lawyer is an improvement.
If that rate surprises you or seems difficult to believe, I conclude you are not a consumer of high-level legal services. My rate would be higher were I still associated with a large firm.
Billing 6 hours often involves at least 8 hours of time, for several reasons. And don’t forget pro bono work, such as kicking Republicans around in election law litigation or training a new generation of Democratic lawyers to do the same.
But overall I am very fortunate these days. I can earn essentially as much as I wish. I blame my legal (and writing) education.
Without some heavy-duty research, it's hard to have a legitimate debate about the efficacy/validity/fairness of the LSAT. But my (nearly worthless) personal opinion is that it's hard to imagine someone who is unable to score well on the LSAT being decent at legal reasoning.
Of course, there are many, many practice areas that don't require much in the way of legal reasoning.
I took the LSAT in the late fall of 1964. This was long before prep courses and practice exams for the LSAT were around--and the score distribution among those taking it reflected that. There was not a significant "bulge" at the very top of the scores.
I'd started high school in 1957, where my local school district was obsessed with producing a new generation of "rocket scientists" to counter the Russian Sputnik threat. The top track of college prep students was shoved into a single group of 30 students each year.
We were tested constantly--usually at least once a week. It got to the point that taking a standardized test was sort of a sport.
So along came the LSAT--I thought it was a test of general knowledge and language skills. As an "experienced" test taker, you looked for repeated questions--what was on the test writer's mind? Was the test difficult? Not particularly. But then I wound up Order of the Coif and Law Review at a top 8 law school.
I'd assume it's part of a comprehensive drive to eliminate ALL measures of merit, so that none remain to expose covert racial quotas.
The LSAT needs to publich all its reliability and validity statistics. It needs to publish its scores by all demographic characteristics. These facts would generate litigation to put the test out of business.
The lawyer ended the use of the IQ test, not to exclude, but to include for special extra services and help. The IQ is the most validated test in history. The score at 7 predicts income at age 50. That is not allowed to be used anymore.
Does Eugene want to attack a real garbage test, that has hideous impact on people's futures and income, question the Bar exams. Those are total, anti-scientific garbage. If someone has passed law school, a whole bunch of law profs believed the student had performed well enough to hit the street.
As with all professional education, nothing covered in law school will ever be used. And nothing you really need to perform a profession on a daily basis, will have been covered. They are garbage hazing rituals. As with all skills only praxis has any value. All professions should just convert to apprenticeship. End the garbage make work of of these rent seeking schools. Eugene, of course, would need to be fired if his school closed. He would then have to get a real job serving the rule of law.
I looked at a practice LSAT book. I believe the test would wipe me out. Yet, I am genius in the law. Why? Because of the preservation of my high school education despite my legal training. All high school knowledge has to be wiped out by legal training due to its indoctrination into supernatural and garbage doctrines from the Medieval era. I attended law school old, and was inure to that effect. Eugene attended law school young and became a clueless denier of what is self evident to anyone on a bus or slurping coffee at a dinner. The lawyer profession is raking in $trillion. It will never give up its rent seeking haul without violence.
A Very Stable one, at that.
David, your high school education and ordinary common sesnse were wiped out. You succumbed to the lawyer training. You believe in mind reading, in forecasting, and that standard of conduct should be set by a fictitious character. You are now stupider than a kid in Life Skills learning to eat with a spoon. He would make a far more effect Justice of the Supreme Court than the current Ivy indoctrinated dumbasses. He would be far more successful at reaching the self stated goals of every law subject. It's a tragedy.
The bigger tragedy than what happened to your intellect and to your ethics is what you are doing to this country. The lawyer profession is the font of all social pathology. Get rid of this toxic profession and end crime, bastardy, poverty, accidents, poor education.
What are the supernatural elements of legal training?
Law is not about truth or justice. It is about precepts and what others have previously derived from those precepts. Logic is valuable in this sort of task. The lsat is a bunch of logic puzzles. The same sort of stuff you'd see in 100-300 level undergraduate logic courses, usually in the philosophy dept.
I'd want any lawyer I hire to be good at formal and informal logic. Even ordinary bivalent sentential logic is not intuitive. Lawyers need this training, for the same reason that LPNs get extra math training, so they don't mess up a dose of medicine.
Oh hell no. That is their fake masking ideology. They are about procedure to keep getting our $trillion in rent seeking and returning nothing of value.
Bar exams are very different from the LSAT. Bar exams are more about rote memorization of large amounts of material. It's less intelligence and ability and more busy makework. I'm told that's more akin to medical school. To be fair, the practice of law can be like that.
If it were me, I think the bar exam (and law school exams in general) should be replaced with closed universe fact patterns, required written briefs, and oral defenses. Think of it as the MPT on steroids. That will show you who has the tools to make it as a lawyer. Let's take a family law example. Suppose there is a case about spousal support and equitable distribution in a non-community property state with no children involved. No Judge is going to ask you to explain how your answer would be different if the parties had children.
I'm not sure what I would do. I doubt the bar exams serve much useful purpose. It might be nice for the lawyers if the bar exams and the schools had a protectionist economic function, like the AMA and doctors and dentists do for themselves. But they don't. Every year law schools and bars churn out more than twice as many newly minted attorneys as will ever actually work as attorneys. I guess maybe it is good that a licensed attorney shows some modicum of knowledge about the law in their state before being minted.
I invite criminal procedure students to spend a half day in traffic court. That is where criminal procedure is in operatin millions of times a year. Nothing they covered will they ever see. Nothing they see will have been covered. The same is true for med school. You have to memorize a 3000 page book every 12 weeks, then nothing you have memorized will you remember, nor ever need. You will will learn from patients and from doing their care. That is why all professional education should be apprenticeships. Imagine how much more and faster you will learn anatomy once you know you will be faced with an open body at surgery tomorrow at 7 AM. That surgical fields will look like nothing like the pictures in the book, and will be 10 times more disorienting and confusing. The same applies to mining, bridge building at a real location, the haze of accounting bookkeeping maintained by a business, the problems of parishioners brought to a pastor.
Get rid of time and money wasting schools. Schools are a total scam. Eugene is in denial about his being a scammer. He is teaching supernatural doctrines that are illegal in our secular nation. He is making kids memorize shit and testing them on shit they will never use. He is also failing to teach what they will desperately need to just survive in the profession and to barely serve their clients, once on the street. Why, he is not doing that himself, being a lawyer. He is a scholar. Clients are collateral nuisance to him.
I agree that schools are a scam. To fix that, all you need to do is stop giving them trillions of federal taxpayer dollars. Most of which takes the form of student "loans."
On their third birthday, each child shall have placed before them the seven objects: a hammer, a sword, a bolt of cloth, an abacus, a spatula, a speculum, and a mortarboard hat. Those that touch one of the first six shall be taken away and apprenticed per their choice, and returned to their village in their eighteenth year, should they reach that age. Those that touch the seventh shall be taken and drowned.
Laugh of the Day.
LSAC stopped publishing LSAT demographics after they reported that in 2004, only 29 black test-takers scored over 170 of the LSAT nationwide. To put that in perspective, the 25th percentile of Harvard's incoming class had a score of 170.
Not just racial quotas. The removal of objective measures means only subjective measures are left, which can then be used in whatever way serves the agendas and rent-seeking of those atop the societal bureaucracy.
Yep.
Wouldn't the push for affirmative action be a counterexample to this idea of no merit at all?
Again, saying our meritocracy doesn't measure merit well doesn't mean merit isn't a thing.
"Wouldn't the push for affirmative action be a counterexample to this idea of no merit at all?"
Maybe you could explain that. It doesn't seem obvious, we tend to think of affirmative action as a departure from merit, not a form of it.
'the agendas and rent-seeking of those atop the societal bureaucracy'
Those atop the societal bureaucracy(?) are pretty white.
But their agendas aren't necessarily white-serving.
Also, I have no disillusion that they'll bend their discretion to helping minorities. Minority quotas would be at best virtue signalling (while they fill those seats with wealthy foreigners where possible), while they direct most resources towards things like legacy admissions and children of their friends.
The important thing is to a priory condemn all efforts due to your future-shifted cynicism telepathy.
That seems some odd incentives at work.
Those atop the societal bureaucracy(?) are pretty white.
They are????
What year does your calendar say it is?
Who is President? What does the Senate look like? What about state legislatures? Governors?
In a majority white country?
Black Democrats have been screwing up my country just like their white counterparts since before I was born.
Update your prejudices ...
This conspiracy of all racial quotas no merit is some insane VDARE white replacement shit if you think about it for even a moment.
Pointing out a way we measure merit is bad is not a sign you want to get rid of merit entirely.
Though you still believe in The Bell Curve, so you have some real thoughts about race and merit that are not shared by most policies nor the public.
Standardized tests more measure achievement than aptitude.
So how would you suggest schools decide who can and can't attend?
I don't think I need to answer that question - pointing out something is bad doesn't mean you need to offer a better option.
What about a portfolio-based system, like art school? It might change how pre-law is taught, and it might encourage more pre-law paralegalling, which would not go awry.
But yeah, I dunno. Our meritocracy is not currently measuring actual aptitude very well, even though we treat it like it does.
===========================
Actual aptitude is not quite the same as future results. A support system/resources can make crap aptitude get at least average results. Is that okay? Should we base our education system solely on outcomes, which include the additional resources well-off people have? Or should it be more a stripping away and seeing what your talents looks like?
I'm not sure, but our system aims at the first as best it can, but seems to treat it's results like the second.
"pointing out something is bad doesn't mean you need to offer a better option."
It does actually, for any meaningful measure of "bad."
The question is always: Compared to what?
No, that's not always the question. Saying the system isn't doing what it says, and we need to look at how to change that does not require I have the upshot ready to go.
Saying the system isn't doing what it says, and we need to look at how to change that does not require I have the upshot ready to go.
Describe a 'tedious' person for me without using the word.
A portfolio of what?
Briefs. Legal writing. Alcohol tolerance. The sorts of things that are the deliverables in law school and in legal practice.
How much "Briefs. Legal writing." do you think an undergraduate has?
And how exactly do you show "Alcohol tolerance."?
Maybe do better reading my comments before you object. I answered that above.
Where? You have half the comments here
"What about a portfolio-based system, like art school? It might change how pre-law is taught, and it might encourage more pre-law paralegalling, which would not go awry."
How to demonstrate Alcohol tolerance is left as an exercise for the reader.
You have half the comments here
This is an area of interest for me!
Why would you expect a person who hasn't been to law school to have produced any briefs or legal writing, much less enough to form a portfolio?
If it was required for admission to law school? Yes. (Not defending it as a good idea or not, just acknowledging that the prep system would shift to support whatever the requirements are).
I'm not sure a portfolio would be as neutral as a standardized test, tbh. The wealthy would have better connections and better mentoring, leading to better portfolios.
This already describes standardized tests like the ACT/SAT. They are not neutral with regard to social class, which in today's world is also tied to race.
For graduate tests, which I think would be somewhat different, (GMAT, LSAT), if the student has had an opportunity to work in their field first, gained professional income, and thus can afford the prep. My understanding of law school is that a large percentage of students go straight from their undergraduate into grad school and do not pick up a career in between. For business majors, it's often the opposite.
There's a bit of a problem with saying that a test is not neutral with regard to social class. What does that mean?
Ideally, what it means is that the measurement of what the test is supposed to be measuring is contaminated by a component that varies, instead, with social class. That "instead" is critical, because it may happen that the thing being measured actually DOES correlate with social class.
But determining this objectively requires a better measure of what the test is supposed to be measuring, than the test itself. If you had that, why wouldn't you use it, instead of the test?
Less ideally, what it may mean is that somebody has made an a priori assumption of how what the test is supposed to measure is distributed relative to social class, but that the test is more correlated with social class than this a priori assumption.
Hence why i said 'as neutral', which acknowledges the standardized test isn't necessarily neutral, just that I think it's probably closer to neutral than a portfolio approach would be.
"It might change how pre-law is taught, and it might encourage more pre-law paralegalling, which would not go awry."
Most students are pretty poor at writing. Even those in traditionally pre-law majors
My god. I already can't stand how much the legal profession is filled with privileged kids of lawyer families and blatant nepotism. Now you want make entry into law school dependent on who can write the best legal briefs before they even start?
Why not just put up a sign saying "no poor kids allowed"?
compare:
In The Uses of Pessimism and the Danger of False Hope, the philosopher Roger Scruton outlines the fallacies underlying [the radical] mindset, such as “the best case fallacy,” which “imagines the best outcome and assumes that it need consider no other,” and “the utopian fallacy,” which insists that the perfect is the enemy of the good. These can be summed up under the rubric of “unscrupulous optimism,” a concept originally coined by the philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer. Assuming that intentions translate directly into results, radicals tend to be unscrupulous optimists in that they operate on the premise that well-intentioned radical change, however destructive, can only lead to improvement. They forget, however, that “human societies may retrogress disastrously,” as the economist and social theorist Thomas Sowell puts it in his analysis of Marxism. “Ignoring the dangers of retrogression can mean sliding into the belief that ‘nothing could be worse’ than the existing society being criticized.” This belief is reinforced by a tendency to compare the status quo not to history but to an imaginary future of human perfection. Any society that falls short of this fantasy is seen as an abomination. (source)
In the same piece, the author talks about “radicals’ unscrupulously optimistic assumption that the existing social order can be overthrown without detriment to the social fabric and human wellbeing.”
When I worked in university admissions for a religious private, we looked at ACT/SAT scores versus grades. It turns out, for that university at least, ACT/SAT weren't as predictive of success as high school GPA. ACT/SAT scores better correlated to ZIP code (read: family financial status).
In a time of declining student populations (a dip in the birth rate 18 years ago), barriers to attendance can impact the school's financial stability. You can still use merit to select students without relying on standardized testing.
You’re definitely in a phase where you’re poo pooing everyone and accusing everyone who doesn’t agree with you of being a conspiracy nut.
So if they’re trashing all of the merit measurements how is that not getting rid of merit entirely? And you’re ridiculing everyone with the White Replacement tag whether they actually believe in it or not, but tossing away merit these days is a lot more frequently Yellow Replacement, which everyone on the left would like to just sweep under the rug.
Come on, bevis, 'I'd assume it's part of a comprehensive drive to eliminate ALL measures of merit, so that none remain to expose covert racial quotas' is a conspiracy theory. It has no support, it relies on assumption explicitly, and it posits a broad-based coordinated invidious agenda.
Oh, and it's an agenda to keep the white man down.
It's pretty bad.
I'm one of those people who is quite skeptical of our current merit measurement system. I don't know that I want to tear it down without a plan, but I think we need a project to look at how we can replace it.
And if it starts with targeting marginal stuff like the SAT and LSAT, so be it.
"it's an agenda to keep the white man down."
I don't think anyone said that.
Some people strongly believe in the desirability of "affirmative action," or in creating groups of people within institutions that intentionally have certain racial makeups. This could be anything from a student body, to a church congregation or leadership group, to a workforce or nonprofit board. And there could be any number of slightly or substantially different motivations for such beliefs and practices, although they generally seem to be characterized by objectives such as promoting racial reconciliation and harmony, or of "helping" groups of people in a way that is perceived to be useful or needed, or of obtaining a "diversity" of viewpoints and experiences that is perceived to be useful. Such objectives may overlap or they may not, and there may be others. If such people believe the LSAT gets in the way of these objectives why wouldn't they oppose it?
What are covert racial quotas but an attempt to topple whites from their perch atop the currently formulated meritocracy?
Affirmative Action is an attempt to spot-weld known issues with the meritocracy. It's better than nothing, but a real systemic examination would be better.
As far as I know, the only 'well known issue with meritocracy' AA attempts to 'spot weld' is that it doesn't meet the quotas.
I do indeed believe that is as far as you know.
Feel free to look into any of the studies on IQ or on bias in standardized testing. Or on the systemic issues with admissions criteria, and who that favors.
But why read those when you can defend our meritocracy. After all, it was kind to you, right?
"look into any of the studies on IQ or on bias in standardized testing. Or on the systemic issues with admissions criteria, and who that favors. "
S0,
Let's look at the GSAT in physics for graduate school entry. Five years ago - taking the distribution scores of white students as a baseline - scores for Asians are skewed 50 points higher, scores for Hispanics 50 points lower and scores of black students 100 yet lower.
As ethnic classifications are based on self-identification.
I certainly didn’t say that. He’s chasing goblins with this replacement stuff.
And there are intersectional/crt/anti-racist publications and presentations that assert that meritocracy is a component of white supremacy. But sure, I’M the one that’s engaged in conspiracy thinking. Not the people you’re defending. No, not them.
I think the issue here is semantic. And it is a problem I have with CRT folks.
They white supremacy they talk about is systemic. Just a system that favors white people. For lots of reasons - wealth concentration, unconscious bias, geographic distribution. etc. etc.
It is not the individual prejudice against nonwhites that you and I were taught was the definition.
There is no conspiracy of people - CRT folks are not Farrakhan - just a system that was made to fit white needs not being well-fit when now it's being employed to serve a more divers society.
You can think that's wrong, but it's not a conspiracy theory.
The idea that there is an organized effort to discredit meritocracy is conspiracy theory, but actually engaging in an organized effort to discredit meritocracy is not conspiracy.
Got it.
"White Replacement tag"
Just a variation of the race card libs always use.
Right, the same universities that actually did implement quotas couldn't possibly have concealing quotas in mind as they adopt opaque 'holistic' admissions policies. [/sarc]
Standardized tests measure a lot of things, but they're well correlated with success in schools, and that's their purpose: Avoiding wasting scarce spaces at a university, and scarce student resources to boot, on studies that are likely to fail.
This is an effort to throw away useful information which is telling the university things they don't want to know, because they don't want them to be true.
Oh, it's possible, but you don't get to declare it's true without any evidence other than you don't like the policies.
Wealth correlates to success in schools. Standardized tests purport to be a measurement independent of wealth. But by all evidence this is not true.
If you want to go all the way to 'all that matters is success in school' then welcome to a caste system, where the rich get the good education and jobs, and the smart but disfavored need to be truly extraordinary to get a chance.
I like a bit more actual individual merit in my meritocracy than that.
Sure, two things that correlate to a third naturally tend to correlate to each other. If I measure your height with a tape measure, that measurement will tend to correlate with wealth, because wealth leads to better prenatal nutrition, and thus greater height.
That doesn't mean my tape measure is measuring your bank balance, or that finding a way to stop my tape measure from correlating with wealth would improve it as a tape measure.
If the purpose of the test is to determine how likely you are to graduate, and thus not waste your tuition and space in the university, I don't see how it can possibly avoid correlating with anything that contributes to your preparedness; Native intelligence, diligence, the accumulated effects of intensive study. Some of those factors are going to be products of or causes of wealth, but they're still predictive of academic success.
You may have some moralistic preference for admitting people who achieved the same level of preparedness despite lacking various advantages. But to the extent you alter the admissions system to reflect those preferences, you must expect that resources will be wasted on students who fail to graduate, and some of those resources will be the students'!
Are you going to find some way to make them whole after wasting their tuition and several years of their life in order that you can feel better about the admissions process? Or do they just have to suck it up and suffer so you can feel better about it?
likleyhood to graduate is not the criterion schools claim to be using the LSAT for.
And as I noted, that criterion has some serious negative social impacts. And goes against a lot of America's self-image regarding individual opportunity.
School is not some utilitarian operation.
The solution for people making it to school without the resources or support structure to succeed is to get them the resources to succeed, not cut them out of the system.
You really are arguing for a caste system where those with resources get education and those without don't. Not hard to see where that positive feedback loop ends.
Amazing. That is fallacious on so many levels...
"...likleyhood to graduate is not the criterion schools claim to be using the LSAT for."
Apologies for inserting a comment here -- it's not my fight -- but in medical school admissions the use of the MCAT is explicitly intended to select for students who will survive their first two years. My university also quite explicitly uses SAT/ACT scores as a measure of the likelihood that a student will pass their freshman year courses, and will return for a second year, which is one of the major variables used in assessing and ranking colleges. If law schools do not use the LSAT in the same way, I am not sure what the purpose of the LSAT would be....
"Are you going to find some way to make them whole…"
Give them part of Brett Bellmore's paycheck, undoubtably.
And part of the paycheck of the guy who became an electrician because the universities weren’t accepting people with his skin color.
Pretty boring, Ben! 'Libs, they love to spend and hate me and you!' is becoming a broken record.
We all know you're terminally partisan - come up with new material!
Frugal people who don’t play favorites could say I was wrong.
Dems, on the other hand, say they’re tired of hearing about it.
I’ve told you that you are wrong about liberals about a hundred times. Have you forgotten?
So yeah, now it’s boring.
What do you think the whole student loan forgiveness racket is about? The fanatics like Sarcastr0 duped people into taking loans out for classes they weren't prepared for and now they plan on making them whole by shafting the rest of society (and give their own kids free money to boot!).
welcome to a caste system, where the rich get the good education and jobs, and the smart but disfavored need to be truly extraordinary to get a chance - you mean like Asians trying to get into Ivy League school?
Asians benefit from our current distorted meritocracy. Which says nothing like what you posited about the Ivy League.
Asians' model minority status is being used to object to any attempts to change the status quo of targeting Asians (as a proxy for white grievance).
To be fair, there are some examples of administrations explicitly targeting Asians, but that's not the general rule.
anyone looking at stats like these and concluding "Asians benefit from our current distorted meritocracy" needs to have their head examined:
https://www.cato.org/commentary/asian-american-ivy-league-applicants-can-trust-markets-more-courts
You're saying affirmative action is part of our meritocracy? How generous of you!
I don't think you read very well. I said the system we have today is exactly one where "the smart but disfavored need to be truly extraordinary to get a chance", nad proved it, with numbers.
You seem to think that would be the (presumably objectionable) outcome if Brett's recommendations were adopted, yet it is what we have today, under your favored system.
No - you are assuming that the baseline meritocracy upon which aa sits is measuring merit, and thus Asians have lots of it.
Maybe they do! But since I don’t accept that assumption you need to do more than just point at the effects of affirmative action.
No, affirmative action is the distortion in our currently distorted meritocracy. Or one of the bigger ones, anyway.
"Wealth correlates to success in schools. Standardized tests purport to be a measurement independent of wealth. But by all evidence this is not true."
You're claiming a causation from a correlation while ignoring all confounding factors as well as the fact that you're looking at averages. Self-selection is one: why are foreign students much better than domestic students? Foreign students don't experience the same societal pressure that they must attend college, even if they anticipate working a job that doesn't really need a degree. Student athletes come from all walks of life but don't necessarily care about their GPA if all they want is a shot at professional sports; a really dumb 18 year old won't make it into many colleges unless they play sports. Heritability, both genetic and not, is another: some families win the genetic and values lottery and pass down stable traits and attitudes, both of which are known to influence wealth and be reflected in standardized tests.
A lot of the causation is self-evident. Legacy support structures from legacy wealth and access to elite institutions. Access to courses and even individual coaching.
I'm also not sure you're right about foreign students not experiencing as much social pressure to attend college.
And I *REALLY* want to push back on your genetic 'stable traits and values' postulate. Values are not genetic. You're not clear what traits you're talking about, but individual familial mental traits are not proven to be determinative of much, given standard variations and environmental factors.
Not a lot of research into eugenics these days, to be fair.
"Access to courses and even individual coaching."
Parents in general (and white parents in particular) tend to get special courses and tutors for students that aren't 'measuring up to their potential'; they don't pump up already high scores.
"I'm also not sure you're right about foreign students not experiencing as much social pressure to attend college."
Practically ever American under 30 has been pressured to believe college is essentially inevitable if they want a 'good' job. That does not occur at the same level in any other country, and in many countries where we skim off the best-of-the-best (Latin America and the Middle East especially) they do not take the same approach. You only go to college if there's something special you want to do, you're really good at something, or you have the money to take some leisure time.
"And I *REALLY* want to push back on your genetic 'stable traits and values' postulate. Values are not genetic."
They are heritable, whether or not they are genetic. If you want to push back on that you need to understand that is what they are deemed in studies on heritability. For instance, sexual orientation is less heritable than attitudes towards homosexuality, even though it's a more 'genetic' trait.
"individual familial mental traits are not proven to be determinative of much"
Depends on what you're thinking of exactly but you're wrong. We know that bipolar spectrum disorders are fairly heritable (some very much so) and that they also have substantial lifetime effects. Schizophrenia is very much genetic and runs in families and has a very noticeable effect on outcome.
Parents in general (and white parents in particular) tend to get special courses and tutors for students that aren't 'measuring up to their potential'; they don't pump up already high scores.
This is not how the parents I know act. Every little extra chance matters! It's not a cost-benefit game.
-Our foreign student superstars come from India and Asia. You're looking at the wrong countries.
-Going from 'stability' as a genetic trait to mental illness as a genetic trait is really normalizing the deviance.
Still don't like heritability either - it basically says some groups are just better; the rich deserve their money, most likely, etc. etc. If true, we should be working to explode that anti-social mobility effect, not embrace it.
"Still don't like heritability either - it basically says some groups are just better; the rich deserve their money, most likely, etc. etc."
Pretty much. Reality doesn't care if people don't like it, it is what it is regardless. The rain falls on the just and unjust alike, but the stupid end up wetter because they don't bring umbrellas.
Some more bad news: Beautiful/handsome people tend to be smarter than average, too, for basic biological reasons. (The same prenatal influences that make you ugly make you stupid, basically.)
" If true, we should be working to explode that anti-social mobility effect, not embrace it."
Not clear to me what you mean by that. What IS an anti-social mobility effect, anyway?
If you want to measure merit for a profession, you have to measure performance.
Universities that insist on grading on a curve grossly distort that. Policies in public high schools do likewise.
Eventually one may get to see a person's work product. That is a terrible time to decide she's a shitty doctor.
Curve grading is bad.
But also different profs are different. Which is also bad and less transparent.
But over 3 to 4 years those effects tend to average out.
In any case a person who "saturates the system" is a good bet even from lesser universities
Tend to is still quite a risk, over the number of students we're talking about.
You either believe in racial discrimination or you don't.
You Sarc, believe in racial discrimination. Why? I suspect ... deep in your heart ... that you don't really believe that black people are truly equal to you.
You are wrong!!!!!
True, and I predict that's it's just a matter of time when admissions will be determined by lottery.
Really?!
I predict (but this is easy because it's already happening) that admissions will be handled by artificial intelligence systems that merge personal life, high school performance, ability to pay and other factors (some of which might be objectionable like race (white), wealth, and gender (male)). I don't mean to start a race fight over this here, but rather point to current experience with AI that is trained on data which, unintentionally, conveys the same biases already inherent in our system.
"but rather point to current experience with AI that is trained on data which, unintentionally, conveys the same biases already inherent in our system."
Or perhaps conveys an objectively correct result rather than a politically correct result, and for reasons of ideology the people charged with evaluating the results are barred from ever admitting that the latter isn't the former, that a totally non-racist process wouldn't produce the mandated numbers.
Of all the standardized tests I've taken the LSAT was the most fair and the most valid. It didn't require any prior knowledge but thoroughly measured an ability which is crucial for a law student (and a lawyer), namely clear thinking (what the more pompous types call "thinking like a lawyer").
I agree - if anything, the LSAT seems like the absolute last admissions test that should be scrapped.
+1
The point of the LSAT is supposed to be that a high score correlates positively with doing well in law school. The problem is that these tests make it easy to identify racial discrimination by those who control entrance. It looks like the Supreme Court might be getting ready to crack down on such racial discrimination. If so, those who want to retain it must obfuscate their selection process, and this requires getting rid of the LSAT. Saying that Asians have unappealing personalities doesn't seem to be working.
But the point of affirmative action is
The relevant question is whether the test identifies ability and intelligence. If it does, and if ability and intelligence tend to be higher in persons from richer families, the fact that persons from richer families tend to do better on the test is indicative of the test's reliability in identifying ability and intelligence.
Whatever the LSAT measures it isn't ability and intelligence. It seems to measure pattern recognition; which makes it a good predictor of success at issue spotting in law school exams. It doesn't measure slower (analytic) thinking at all.
The critics are full of it. I only studied 3.5 weeks for the LSAT. You have to buy some materials but you don't need a tutor.
Nice flex.
You are not everyone.
Those that need a tutor should likely be considering a different career.
Based on the LSAT 25 years ago (perhaps it has changed dramatically), it obviously fails to cover everything a lawyer should have a talent for. However those that it does cover are important and if someone can't ace it with just a few practice tests they are unlikely to have the "right stuff".
The LSAT at that time struck me a bit like doing an initial screening of quarterbacks for your NFL team by checking if they have at least one arm.
I didn't study for the LSAT at all (I didn't know at the time that there were study materials/courses for it) and I did all right.
What’s the correlation between “academic success in law school” and becoming a competent attorney? We’ve learned there’s almost no correlation between where one attends law school and competence, but is there one between class rank and competence?
Law school academic performance seems to correlate highly with being a diligent and conscientious associate who is willing to bill a lot of hours. Adjust for rank of law school and it seems to correlate with the type of competence expected from such an associate.
I remember a science fiction short story ages ago which postulated a world-wide test in some field using some kind of equipment, all irrelevant to the story, which was about one of the students taking the test who was really pissed about having to deal with a machine which was a generation or two out of date, and not in the best of condition to start with; he spent half his time fixing the damn thing!
Afterwards, griping about it with one of the exam proctors, he found the truth: he had already been pegged as better than most, and the clunky test machine was intentional, to see how well he could think for himself and solve problems not in the book. Most technicians were only good enough to solve ordinary problems with the best tools, not enough imagination or initiative to deal with uncomfortable reality.
I remember this story every time I hear of grumbles about tests. In the real world, of course, the people portrayed in the story as imaginative and innovative are not recognized by smart bureaucrats, but by themselves, not being content with boring normality. Elon Musk is the prime example today. Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos were one-shot wonders who will never have another brilliant off-the-wall in their lives. But none would have been found by tests, either the current kind or the kind in the story.
Bill Gates went Harvard, Jeff Bezos was the valedictorian of his high school class and graduated with honors from Princeton, and Elon Musk went to one of the most presitigious high schools in South Africa before emigrating to the U.S., where he also graduated from an Ivy League school. Seems like the traditional methods of academic sorting treated them just fine?
Elon Musk is the prime example today. Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos were one-shot wonders who will never have another brilliant off-the-wall in their lives.
Extremely objective analysis going on in this post.
But your broader point that testing is not a great indicator of merit is not wrong.
As someone who tends to test above my actual merit, I think we need more apprenticeship models to deal with those who test below their actual abilities.
Aptitude is only part of the story, obviously. If you don't have at least the threshold level of it you're screwed, but once you pass that threshold necessary to comprehend the material, success is as much about diligence as it is aptitude. They trade off to a certain extent at the mid-levels, but the highest performers always rate high in both.
It's absolutely a continuum of the two. Average comprehension workaholics get stuff done, and lazy geniuses are a thing.
Plus, of course, each particular endeavor has it's own mix of how much you can grind it out and how much just having it click matters.
Diligence/dedication is absolutely part of the merit mix, but how do you measure it?
Standardized tests don't include anything about dedication. Grades do, but occluded by a lot of other stuff.
I actually think it would improve things if you could separately measure intelligence and diligence. Different teaching strategies might work better depending on the students' balance of these two factors.
Apocryphal story warning, but since we're talking about him, I heard that Bill Gates's school did exactly this. His goal was to get the highest possible marks on the quality of the work, and the lowest possible marks for effort.
Use hidden cameras in the check-in area before the exam, and open check-in 5 minutes later than the previously announced time.
At the college level we've got 10 minutes between classes, sometimes the prior class ends five minutes late. During this five minutes you will see some students lined up single file outside the room. I am not making this up. These are pre-meds, the most diligent people in the world, true believers that success comes from getting all the boxes checked. People of normal diligence show up during the next five minutes. People of below normal diligence show up after the bell rings.
Anyway, do the same thing for the LSAT/GRE/GMAT and you'll kill two birds with one test.
This is a great idea.
Absent the near-slavery and monopolistic guild aspects, I'd love to see apprenticing make a comeback. I gather "reading for the law" used to be somewhat similar, and medicine also had something similar. Both grew to the point that rote memorization became necessary, but for different reasons. But if there's room for practical nursing (? -- not sure of the field's name), there's room for even more diversification and practical care, and I imagine that drawing up wills and simple contracts don't require 3 years of Harvard law school.
The number of folks who do federal contracting who are better lawyers than most of the lawyers I know is quite high.
When did we learn that?
I've seen people not liking standardized tests generally. I don't know that there's an especial focus on the LSAT, other than maybe by legal academics.
The problem with the LSAT, if there is one, is that it favors pattern recognition over analysis. It's probably a good predictor of success in law school, since rapid issue spotting is crucial in law school tests. It might be a better world if different kinds of thinkers made it to elite law schools. But you can't pin that on the test.
I personally found it a very beatable test by just doing tons of practice exams.
The people who say that they're not good standardized test takers generally aren't that bright. Leftists hate these tests because they expose the lie that most of success is driven by nurture.
Only got into med school because of my Idiot Savant-esqe (more Idiot than Savant) MCAT scores, which was good, because all they cared about were great test scores, and fortunately, took it the year before they required a written essay (always prefer Oral), which is why I can't remember stupid grammatical rules, "Reverend".
I here most med schools are pass/fail now (of course they have "Honors" "High Honors" which is just another way of grading A-D, but most of the competitive specialties are filled with Ass-burgers who make "Rainman" look like Robin Williams (hated "Patch Adams")
If you want to know if you have a good Vascular Surgeon say to him(don't say it to a her)
"As Sally Lay Frigid, Oscars Penis Slipped In"
any Vascular Cutter worth his salt will smile, and know what you're referring to, a bad one (or a modern day Frank William Abagnale Jr) won't.
Frank "you'll feel a little prick"
Okay. I give up and Google didn't help.
I assume that phrase is a memory device for proper execution of some aspect of vascular procedures - but for what?
I could tell you, BadLib, but then I'd have to kill you (no 18 USC 871 rap, I'm just a big "Top Gun" fan)
I could say, go to Med School, and you should learn it in first year Gross Anatomy, but not certain they tell teach it, waste of time you see, they can Google it on their phones, and we can't spare any time away from "Sensitivity issues in Sexual Reassignment Surgery (Don't call it an "Add-a-dick-t0-me")
But I'll let a few more of this August Company weigh in....
Frank " Flop, Chop, and Drop" or is it "Drop, Flop and Chop?"
I prefer the question, how many of these procedures have you done? If the answer is 10000, pick that person no matter your bias. First, the person was proven and trusted with all those cases. That person stopped making mistakes 5000 cases ago. That person will have seen what could go wrong and had to learn to cope with that. That person will be fast and effective with muscle memory drivng the procedure, which includes the entire smooth running team, as well.
Hmm, so an experienced Surgeon/Pilot/Lawyer is better than a less experienced one? Thanks! (Moron)
Do a lot of Asians go to laws school these days?
Keeping Asians out is the usual motive for eliminating testing
Did alot ever go? all I remember is Judge Ito.
Clayton Kozinski, the Kavanaugh nepotism dude with the disgraced parent? He's graduated from Federalist Society meetings to writing for zombie clinger publication Newsweek?
No wonder Prof. Volokh is a fan!
I can infer the Kozinski part... anyone else have a primer for those of us who haven't been memorizing the BlueAnon forums?
LSAT correlates with grades? OK.
How does it correlate with competence as an attorney?
not at all, I'm guessing. I'm just surprised there's a test, don't they take everyone? Hah-vud law accepts over 500 per year, the Med School (doesn't require the MCAT, go figure) 165, guess we need more Lawyers than Physicians
Hard to believe these two disaffected clingers, with these insights, were never hiring partners at a strong law firm!
Not really, as neither of us are lawyers (are/were( ahh, those embarrassing "Buggery" charges) you??) School, Year of Graduation, and Your Current Bar Qualifications?? (I'm a Doctor we call them Licenses) You bust one everyone else's School, what was yours (Mine? Auburn for College(never heard of "Undergrad" until I was an "Overgrad") Medical College of Georgia for Med School (It's got some corporate Bullshit name now)
Both Pubic (i.e. Cheap) Schools, still suckered, I mean, applied to have Uncle Sugar pay my way through,
Frank "Not a Reverend"
"Hah-vud law accepts over 500 per year, the Med School (doesn't require the MCAT, go figure) 165,"
Harvard Medical School does require the MCAT.
https://meded.hms.harvard.edu/admissions-mcat
I mean, the honest truth is this.
Being "rich" is going to, on average, better prepare you for law school than being "poor". Being rich gives you more time, more resources, better connections, etc. And if you're better prepared, you're going to do better, all other things being equal.
That in no way means that you can't do well in law school if you're poor. Or that you automatically will do well if you're rich. But money helps.
Duh! thanks for the enlightenment,
Frank "Eat less, Exercise more, you'll lose weight!"
About 25 years ago I considered switching careers from software development and going to law school.
I bought the books that were old copies of the LSAT and started with the tests (I think there were sections about "how to take the test" and "tips and tricks" but I don't recall and know I didn't read those sections).
I ran through one full test and didn't bother to score it and thought "this isn't too hard" and "learned the ropes" by doing so. I quickly noticed such conveniences as everyone's first name in some types of problems starting with A, B, C, D, etc. and being unique in the first character which made it easier to write the boolean logic etc. without dumb errors. Then I did a couple more tests and timed and scored them getting nearly 100% (and, there were a couple of problems that I got wrong that I would argue were ambiguous).
At that point I decided that I probably didn't want to be a lawyer as if anything much below a perfect score was qualifying (and it seemed to be at some pretty decent schools), I really didn't want to deal with such people across the table every day when in practice (I was interested in practicing and had no interest in academia).
Perhaps the LSAT has changed over the years, but anyone who couldn't get a very good score on the LSAT just after two or three practice tests should really have considered another career back then. Just as many who rushed into "computer science" in the mid/mid-late 90's but had no passion and little talent for it (seeking money generally) should have picked different careers.
In the Rittenhouse case my view was reinforced when the Judge claimed that the law behind the charge against Rittenhouse regarding illegal possession, due to age and type of weapon, of his firearm was "confusing" before finally deciding to dismiss it. No, the law isn't confusing AT ALL. It may be bad policy, it may suffer from bad drafting, it may not cover all cases that some who passed it thought it should -- but it's not confusing and Rittenhouse should never have been charged. On my first reading of the three(?) intertwined sections, a simple truth table made it clear that Rittenhouse's age (at the time of the supposed offense) meant the law didn't apply to him. That's the sort of fools I couldn't tolerate running into and working with/against every day - esp. if they happened to be a judge I was before.
It can take a bit of time to learn the logic games section and generally to practice and get your mind in the groove, as the time constraints mean you have to go very fast, but it typically doesn't take very long to max your potential. I sat in one of the proctored practice tests cold and didn't do great, but after a few weeks of studying got a near perfect score on the real test.
I wonder how many Law School applicants actually take expensive prep courses or otherwise prepare for the LSAT. It seems to me that the more well off students are likely are to have been exposed to situations and experiences which give them an advantage over candidates who are not similarly exposed.
By well off I don't really mean rich, many educated parents of moderate means make a strong effort to expose their children to a wide range of experiences and encourage intellectual pursuits.
I am a licensed architect by profession so there is no analogue to the LSAT in my profession, however there is a near universal licensing examination and back when I was in line for it I could pretty much tell who would be able to pass the examination without too much trouble.
You mean just yelling "racist" at something doesn't change reality to actually match with the political agenda of the person doing the screaming????
Can't say much for the LSAT in particular but for other widely-used standardized tests the impacts of tutoring and paid materials are wildly overstated. Rich people get tutors for their children and enroll them in special class because they're already doing badly, not to improve their already great standing. Outside of Asians (who apparently have a better handle on when the prep is worth it) private tutoring and special classes are correlated with worse scores, not better. Public test prep classes do improve outcomes, though I doubt that matters so much for the LSAT.
I immigrated to the U.S. at the age of 15. I'd been in the country for a little over five years when I took the LSAT. Not being "from a wealthy background," I didn't have "elite prep courses" or "personalized tutoring." I did pick up a standard LSAT booklet at a law school admission office and went over it carefully. (It had one or two sample questions.) I did fine.
As I see it, there's nothing wrong with LSAT. If you have trouble with LSAT, you'll probably have trouble in law school, trouble passing the bar exam, trouble practicing law.
The people who complain about LSAT are the same crowd who complain about "inequality." A does better than B -- how unfair! We must do something!
(forgot to add: I immigrated from a non-English-speaking country.)
> So why do they still single out the LSAT?
Worse, the LSAT is taken by college juniors/seniors. Why don't those enlightened institutions use their DIE funds to provide free LSAT prep? Seriously. They can't blame "racist" municipalities and "under funded" school districts for inequalities at this level.
They need that money to manufacture more "racism" so that they can then demand more money to fight "racism". That is how this entire race hustle scheme works. BLM needs more mansions and that money doesn't just fall out of trees.
Re: all the people posting here who say they found the LSAT contemptuously easy:
The Volokh Conspiracy commentariat may not be the best representative sample by which to make policy for the general legal population.
Plus, of course, on the Internet no one knows you're a dog.
" Re: all the people posting here who say they found the LSAT contemptuously easy: "
How many of these 'it was too easy' guys sound like big-firm partners?
I had hundreds of partners. The handful that sounded anything like the average Volokh Conspiracy fan were buried down in the intellectual property section, their interaction with clients as limited as could reasonably be arranged, their lack of origination volume made more tolerable by miniscule practice development budgets.
They were awkward, but some were quite interesting in conversation if you were willing to make a bit of an effort and a few allowances.
(Believe it or not, that song was written by this guy. That might be the oddest combo platter in recorded popular music.)
Here is the menu description of that Timothy-Pina Colada combo platter.
>Okay. I give up and Google didn't help.
>
>I assume that phrase is a memory device for proper execution of >some aspect of vascular procedures - but for what?
https://www.wikidoc.org/index.php/External_carotid_artery#Mnemonics
Carotid arteries.
Congratulations! now "Two Zebras Bit my Crotch!" not really, but it's one a Neurologist or ENT Surgeon should know.
My favorite one was "Fuck Little Titties", sort of a local one, dude who came up with that is one of top Dermatologists in the world (or at least Tennessee)
NFL should stop measuring "Fo-Fo" Times, Vertical Jump, Bench Press, and their Intelligence test, Der Vunder-Lick, no wonder there's such a lack of Diversity!
LSAT is like democracy, it's a terrible system, but still better than the rest.
Like opponents of democracy, opponents of the LSAT are mainly opposed to it when it generates outcomes they dislike.
It's not that hard to pass the LSAT with a $99 study guide. For the cost of a tank of gas you can improve your life. If you think being a lawyer is an improvement.
" If you think being a lawyer is an improvement. "
Righting wrongs (if you wish).
Helping clients.
Interesting work.
Billing at $600 per hour.
There might be worse situations.
such bull shit,
so assuming a 40 hr week (I know, you worked more)
you bill $1,200,000/year??
as I said, Bull Shit
Frank
I am easing into retirement.
If that rate surprises you or seems difficult to believe, I conclude you are not a consumer of high-level legal services. My rate would be higher were I still associated with a large firm.
Billing 6 hours often involves at least 8 hours of time, for several reasons. And don’t forget pro bono work, such as kicking Republicans around in election law litigation or training a new generation of Democratic lawyers to do the same.
But overall I am very fortunate these days. I can earn essentially as much as I wish. I blame my legal (and writing) education.
Without some heavy-duty research, it's hard to have a legitimate debate about the efficacy/validity/fairness of the LSAT. But my (nearly worthless) personal opinion is that it's hard to imagine someone who is unable to score well on the LSAT being decent at legal reasoning.
Of course, there are many, many practice areas that don't require much in the way of legal reasoning.
I took the LSAT in the late fall of 1964. This was long before prep courses and practice exams for the LSAT were around--and the score distribution among those taking it reflected that. There was not a significant "bulge" at the very top of the scores.
I'd started high school in 1957, where my local school district was obsessed with producing a new generation of "rocket scientists" to counter the Russian Sputnik threat. The top track of college prep students was shoved into a single group of 30 students each year.
We were tested constantly--usually at least once a week. It got to the point that taking a standardized test was sort of a sport.
So along came the LSAT--I thought it was a test of general knowledge and language skills. As an "experienced" test taker, you looked for repeated questions--what was on the test writer's mind? Was the test difficult? Not particularly. But then I wound up Order of the Coif and Law Review at a top 8 law school.