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"Illegal Aliens" "May Be 'Disqualified from' Possessing Arms Without Violating the Second Amendment"
So the Eleventh Circuit held today in U.S. v. Jimenez-Shilon, in an opinion by Judge Kevin Newsom, joined by Judges Elizabeth Branch and Andrew Brasher; the opinion focused on Framing-era history, and concludes,
[Under eighteenth-century law,] aliens could not surreptitiously enter a foreign nation in violation of the immigration prerogatives of the sovereign and expect to receive all the rights and protections of the citizenry. Nor can they do so today.
Other courts have likewise upheld the federal ban that was upheld in this opinion, but generally without such detailed historical analysis.
Judge Newsom also adds a separate concurrence, in which he questions the use of strict scrutiny, intermediate scrutiny, and similar tests both as to the Second Amendment and as to other constitutional rights, such as the First Amendment. Allowing constitutional rights to be overcome by compelling or substantial government interests, he argues, "elevates the normative views of 'we the judges' over 'We the People' through an ill-defined balancing test." And, turning to the First Amendment, he adds:
It's not just that the [First Amendment strict scrutiny / intermediate scrutiny] doctrine is exhausting—although it certainly is that. It's that the doctrine is judge-empowering and, I fear, freedom-diluting. If we, as judges, conclude—as I've said we should—that Second Amendment rights shouldn't be casually balanced away by reference to manipulable means-ends balancing tests, we might need to start asking the bigger question: On what basis can we do exactly that when dealing with other, equally fundamental rights?
Of course, this is just a quick summary of the results the opinion and the concurrence reaches; for more, see here.
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By Jove, I think he's got it!
Blame the Supreme court for inventing 'substative due process'; The 14th amendment guarantees Privileges and immunities to citizens only, and to people in general only due process and equal protection of the law.
The right to keep and bear arms is one of those Privileges and Immunities only citizens are entitled to.
Wrong. Name another article from the Bill of Rights that is citizenship dependent.
Also, the right isn't created by the 2A, its violation by the govt is restricted. The right stems from natural law.
Self defense (and the right to arms to do it with) is an aspect of the Right to Life that is elucidated in the Declaration of Independence. It is not granted by govt or men but by our creator, which for me is nature.
Basically all of them, since they're supposed to be incorporated via the P&I clause, which specifies the rights adhere to citizens.
Well, hurrah! Indeed, basically all constitutional rights are treated by the courts as though there was an invisible "unless the government has a good reason" clause. "Congress shall make no law ... unless it has a good reason."
It's nice to see a judge point out that invisible clause isn't actually present.
I have seen it argued too many times that the First Amendment means "Congress shall make no law abridging the (freedom of speech)" as distinct from "Congress shall make no law abridging the (freedom) of speech" or some similar quibble, where "freedom of speech" is a distinct thing which happens to allow laws on slander, libel, defamation, etc. It's like the "right to keep and bear arms", which is a single phrase which understands it doesn't apply to babies, felons, prisoners, the mentally ill, etc.
In both cases, the quibble is that Congress is not abridging the simple right, buy the right that is already abridged as understood.
Sort of like saying someone did not bake a cake from scratch if they didn't grow their own wheat and sugar beets, raise their own chickens, etc.
You put chicken in your cake?
You put chicken in your cake?
Doesn't everybody?
I certainly do.
Clump-of-cells chicken or unfertilized ovum chicken?
I keep a rooster with my flock, so I never know whether my ovum chicken is fertilized or not...unless I put it in the incubator.
Well, you could potentially use something other than chicken eggs.
Duck, goose, and turkey eggs are all available if you know where to look.
And if you need to make a really big cake you could even use an ostrich egg.
Duck eggs are superior in flavor to chicken eggs, but I still haven't persuaded my wife to replace our flock with ducks. She thinks the ducks are much dirtier.
Which is true, just tastier, too.
No, they are the taste testers. All this home-grown food is more likely to be poisonous or contaminated.
I do my own taste testing, there's no more effective diet plan than a good bout of food poisoning.
Currently waiting on a smoked trout and mushroom quiche to cool down enough to serve for dinner. Admittedly, I didn't grow the wheat myself, so I guess it's not from scratch.
It sure isn't from scratch -- I was riffing from I, Pencil,
I’d rather trust the safety of my town to a group of undocumented aliens, who are glad to be in our country and willing to fight for it, than to any of our self styled “militias”.
Self stylied militia - you mean like the black panthers or BLM?
"The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard."
10 USC Ch. 12:
In other words, you would trust illegal aliens over the citizens of the United States for the safety of your town....
Arguably the comment was restricted to "self styled militias" rather than federally recognized ones. Which I guess excludes the old, mostly white, dudes who are in self styled militias? And females, whatever that means in this day and age?
It turns out though that the concept of a militia predates the Constitution, so the idea that a later statute could limit the reach of the 2nd Amdt is not persuasive.
Michael,
In regards to "rather than federally recognized ones."....
Please keep in mind. The citizens of the United States ARE the militia. That is the actual definition. Not "old white dudes" but all those people who are required (by law) to register with the Selective Service System and be potentially eligible for the draft. In fact, the reason they CAN constitutionally be drafted is because they are in the militia.
Whatever definition captcrisis is using for militia isn't correct in legal terms.
Many of the original men called to militia duty were, by your standards, illegal aliens.
The first American solider to die in the (stupid) Iraq War had come into this country illegally. Look up Lance Corporal Gutierrez.
I know quite a number of illegal aliens (unlike you, I wager) and I do trust them more to keep the public order than I would those brave open-carry 2A men.
"Many of the original men called to militia duty were, by your standards, illegal aliens."
Again, this requires evidence.
Lance Corporal Gutierrez had political asylum, and was not an illegal alien when he enlisted. He was a legal US resident.
You would trust illegal aliens with your safety over people like Lance Corporal Gutierrez....
Yeah, how could you have a militia of illegal aliens?
Well, you could, but they'd probably be some other country's militia...
You could certainly have a military made of illegal aliens. There are thousands serving in U.S. forces as we speak. And this has always been true.
"You could certainly have a military made of illegal aliens. There are thousands serving in U.S. forces as we speak"
This requires evidence.
No, he's right: Normally having been caught as an illegal immigrant means a life long prohibition on legally immigrating, but serving in the military, if they'll have you, is one of the few legal routes for an illegal immigrant to become legal.
Yes, but the military tries not to enlist aliens who are not legally present in the United States. I think the request for evidence was about the claim that thousands have (more or less) successfully snuck in.
Thousands of illegal immigrants in the military?
Keep in mind, that in order to enlist in the military you need the following.
"To join the U.S.military, non-citizens must be living permanently and legally in the United States. Non-citizens must
also have permission to work in the United States, possess an I-551 (Permanent Residence Card), have obtained a high school diploma and speak English."
https://immigrationforum.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/VNA-Fact-Sheet.pdf
They came into this country illegally.
Which is not what you said. There's a large difference between illegal aliens, and legal residents of the United States.
It's a bit of a loophole: If an illegal alien, using falsified documents, manages to enlist and are discharged honorably, they qualify for citizenship under the terms of a law granting citizenship to "aliens" who have honorably served, which happened not to explicitly exclude illegal aliens.
That loophole is pretty narrow these days, as if you're an alien serving in the military, they do a background check on you when you're discharged, and if it turns out that you were an illegal alien serving using falsified documents, you get a dishonorable discharge. So you have to go undiscovered until you've already been discharged honorably.
So when you claimed, "There are thousands serving in U.S. forces as we speak. And this has always been true." you were lying your ass off.
No, he was just eliding the "and in order to do so they lied that they were here legally" part.
So wait. We are now governed by the 18th Century laws of other countries?
Well, the Constitution does recognize the law of nations.
Can I quote you on that? Might come in handy on other issues.
Heck, you can quote the Constitution on that. Article 1, Section 8: "To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;"
I don't think that's the same thing as saying that whatever 18th century immigration law was in Spain, say, that law applies in the US today.
In fact, the idea seems absurd.
Well, sure, I agree with you on that. We're not mandated to have the same immigration laws as random 18th century countries. At best you can point to other countries to illustrate what was accepted practice at the time.
Judge Kevin Newsom -- another stellar Trump appointee. Thank you, Mr. President!
Will Judge Newsom struggle when confronted by conflict-of-rights cases? Never fear. It's always clear. Stay tuned to find out.
I had never heard of Judge Newsom until recently but he is quickly becoming one of my favorite judges on the bench. I don't even know how often I agree with him, but he is more and more often writing fascinating, thoughtful discussions of significant structural issues, on a wide range of topics from arms to free speech to Article II discretion to delegation.
He's also a calmer gent than most of the highly opinionated Article III judges, on both sides of the aisle: he doesn't seem to let his strong opinions get the better of his judicial temperament. Other thoughtful judges include Judge Hamilton (7th Cir.) and Judge Thapar (6th), for examples, but Newsom acts more chill.
Might have a future on the Supreme court under a Republican administration.
Let's point out that guns are the only rights that undocumented immigrants lose. Somehow that one is special.
Again, illegal immigrants. They're 'undocumented' immigrants in the same way somebody who breaks into your house is an 'undocumented' tenant, or somebody who robs a bank is an 'undocumented' bank customer.
Selective incorporation is part and parcel of the illegitimacy of 'substantive' due process. The 14th amendment was supposed to incorporate ALL Privileges and Immunities in one fell swoop, but only for citizens. Jury rigged incorporation via 'substantive due process' allowed the courts to pick and chose which rights they incorporated, under what circumstances.
The People have a right to vote, but aliens -- even those lawfully admitted -- don't.
There is no right to vote in the Constitution, only specific reasons why the vote can not be denied.
It's an implicit right, except where is explicit, such as in Article I Section 4, the Guarantee Clause, the 17th Amendment, the 24th Amendment, and perhaps some others.
That's not what the Court has found - MollyG has it right.
You may think the law ought to be otherwise, but the current law is you can't argue there is an SDP right to vote, only that the EPC means if you offer it to anyone, you need to be careful who you exclude.
Indeed, you can see that each of the voting rights amendments merely eliminated a potential basis for denying the franchise.
15: race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
19: Sex
24: Failure to pay taxes, but only for federal offices. (Interesting provision, that.)
26: On account of age, so long as you're at least 18.
But they can still, constitutionally, deny the franchise on other basis, though Section 2 of the 14th amendment, NOT the EPC, would penalize the state if it wasn't on the basis of rebellion or other crime.
Personally, I'd argue that the right to vote is actually being routinely violated in many states, though, not on the basis of who gets to vote, but who they get to vote FOR; Until the government itself started printing ballots, there was no such thing as "ballot access", and the right to vote was the right to vote for anybody you wanted.
I'd argue it's still the right to vote for anybody you want, and that any state that doesn't permit write in votes is violating this right; You can violate a right by contracting the scope of it's exercise, not just by forbidding it's exercise totally.
Section 2 allows a lot of mischief, Brett.
Why would the EPC not apply?
I also don't see a lot of support for open ballots being required by the text of the Constitution. Both for practical reasons, and for the more formalist folks, considering the already existing practice when the 14A was drafted.
Yes, Section 2 allows a lot of mischief, which Section 2 punishes. It is what it is, not what it ideally ought to be.
The EPC wouldn't apply, because voting is not "protection of the law". The EPC is a prohibition on outlawry, not a general non-discrimination rule.
Outlawry was the practice of placing some person or group outside the protection of the law, so that crimes could be committed against them with impunity. Sound like anything that was going on in the South about the time the 14th amendment was written?
Right - but section 2 does not require one person one vote. In fact, it's not formally a right at all, since the remedy is specified already. Which opens up a lot of stuff a state can do to monkey with the franchise. And lets a state just take the punishment and contract the franchise.
I'd say voting is necessary protection of the law. But more than that, under the logic of Brown the stigma of denial is also something to note - second class citizens is not equal.
7
Warren went further: "The right to vote freely for the candidate of one's choice is of the essence of a democratic society, and any restrictions on that right strike at the heart of representative government."
It's some mighty fine parsing to say that voting isn't a right under EPC because there is no protection there, well, that kind of parsing gets you separate but equal as technically correct.
"And lets a state just take the punishment and contract the franchise."
Well, that IS what it says, isn't it? Haven't I said often enough that the Constitution genuinely means some things that aren't good, but that doesn't stop them from being the highest law of the land until amended?
Separate but equal might have been technically correct, if it had ever been equal. (In much the way the Court ruled that literacy tests to vote might be constitutional if they were ever honestly administered.) It was reasonable of the courts to eventually take notice of the fact that it never was, because nobody who wanted separate actually wanted equal. (I await, but not with 'bated breath, for the courts to figure out the same thing about "reasonable regulation of guns".)
"Warren went further: "The right to vote freely for the candidate of one's choice is of the essence of a democratic society, and any restrictions on that right strike at the heart of representative government.""
Seems I said something like that myself in another thread today.
How does Judge Newsome plan to avoid interest-balancing when the Courts consider military grade weapons (bazookas etc)? It seems there is a reasonable originalist argument that the people should have access to the same technology as the federal government (as was true until the 1930’s or so). Plus the 2nd A contains a clear anti-tyrannical purpose in which the people should be able to fight the federal government on something like equal terms. All of which means that the real reason no court is going to allow military grade weapons is interest balancing (e.g., it is insane to allow this).
That's been the holdup: The 2nd amendment represents a sense of the relationship between citizen and government that the modern judiciary reject, have in fact been carefully selected to reject. They can't bear to honestly uphold it, it clashes too deeply with their values.
The Miller Court held that what made guns 2nd amendment protected was their being suitable for military use. Scalia stood that on its head in Heller, because he was of a generation of jurists who'd been trained to be hostile to the idea of a citizenry armed match the military; He could only bear to uphold a neutered version of the 2nd amendment.
He and Stevens weren't so far apart, after all.
The fact is, when I was a tyke, you could buy anti-tank guns, mail order. And new machine guns were just artificially expensive, not restricted. So the idea of citizens owning bazookas isn't all that crazy, in terms of fairly recent history; Plenty of people still living were around before there was such a thing as a military firearm civilians couldn't legally own.
I don't see a pleasant route back to that legal environment, though, it was the product of a revolution fought with civilian arms against a powerful military, not gradual evolution.
What's interesting about this - and I realize you're far too stupid to grasp the distinction that I'm about to draw - is that you're (i) embracing a theory of the Second Amendment where it protects a kind of natural right to overthrow a tyrannical government while (ii) denying that a person's natural rights can be entitled to protection by the Second Amendment without their fundamentally committing themselves to living subject to that government.
I think it is logically incoherent in the first place to assert that a government or legal system can protect an individual's right to overthrow that government or legal system. That's why the "modern judiciary" has essentially rejected claims to that effect. But entertaining for a moment that it isn't, how do you distinguish between a person who has declared war on their own government and an undocumented immigrant? Don't they both, in your view, stand outside the government in question? Don't they both have the same natural rights vis-a-vis the government in question? What entitles the righteous insurrectionist to act where the undocumented immigrant may not - if anything?
"I think it is logically incoherent in the first place to assert that a government or legal system can protect an individual's right to overthrow that government or legal system."
Well, it wouldn't be logically incoherent, (Unless you're relying on some undisclosed and probably controversial premises.) just fruitless, since any government deserving of being overthrown would violate that right in a heartbeat regardless of what the legal system said.
The 2nd amendment doesn't protect a right to overthrow the government. (Though the Declaration of Independence does assert such a right exists.) What it protects is the means to do that. The capability. It aims at preserving an armed populace that will be able to overthrow the government in dire extremity.
As such it functions as a sort of miner's canary, since any tyrannical government would pretty much automatically set out to take those means away in its own self defense. And by setting on that course, demonstrates both its contempt for the Constitution, and its own evil intent.
"What entitles the righteous insurrectionist to act where the undocumented immigrant may not - if anything?"
Just numbers. Revolution is one of those areas where might is right; A cause for revolution that doesn't persuade enough people fails, and the revolutionaries end up on a gibbet. A revolution that does persuade enough people succeeds, and by winning declares itself to be righteous, while the opposition ends up on those same gibbets.
Scalia - pawn of the left.
Nah, more a pawn of the political establishment.
Remember, pretty much the entire political establishment was in favor of gun control there, for a while. The modern gun control movement was created by the political establishment, after the Kennedy assassination; Literally by a 'retired' CIA agent.
Originally gun control in the US was about rendering suspect minorities defenseless, but after the Kennedy assassination, the American political class took to viewing the whole population besides themselves as suspect, and set about trying to disarm basically everybody. And this attitude was nearly as common among right wing politicians as left-wing.
It took long, hard work by gun owners to wrest even one political party from the control of gun banners, which made it look like a left/right issue. But it's more of a ruler/subject conflict.
made it look like a left/right issue. But it's more of a ruler/subject conflict
Lots of these subjects disagree with you about what they are, and what gun rights should be.
I tend to think there is an individual right to self defense both against people and animals is laid out in the 2A, as well as common practice (though I do think registration is legit)
But it's pretty poor to call everyone who disagrees with you on gun rights someone who loves them some monarchy.
I wouldn't call every gun control advocate somebody who wants monarchy. I'm just saying that politicians push gun control much more than public opinion would normally result in, because their fear of assassination causes them to favor a disarmed public, and they acted on that opinion.
The modern gun control movement is a top down movement that was driven by politicians, not a bottom up movement driven by citizens. Not one gun control organization out there has a membership based organizational plan, they're all self-perpetuating boards mostly funded by large foundations, with the 'membership' just useful props who have no input into policy.
Doesn't mean nobody got sucked in and became a true believer.
As usual, you assume motives that are not in evidence. With security as it is today, I don't think the main concern is someone with a legal firearm.
But there are lots of fine policy reasons to want fewer guns on the street. If you count accidents and suicides that there is a pretty dangerous tool!
The modern gun control movement is a top down movement that was driven by politicians, not a bottom up movement driven by citizens.
That as you know, depends on which questions you ask, and whether you're looking state by state or not.
Well, then, I'm sure you can provide examples of member oriented gun control organizations of some significant size. By "member oriented", I mean organizations where the BOD is actually chosen by the members.
That's a really finely tuned metric you've decided is determinative - NRA-style nationally funded member-funded organizations.
Ignore opinions polls, ignore votes, ignore any policy org or nonprofit with a business model different from the NRA, or one without national reach.
That's argument from being procrustrian.
Yeah, my argument is that the gun control movement is elite driven astroturf, not a bottom up social movement. And my evidence of that is that there aren't any gun control organizations with conventional membership based structures. They are all, without any exception I'm aware of, top down organizations with self-perpetuating boards and dependent on outside funding. With no mechanism at all for the 'membership' to influence policy.
They're all organizations that didn't require widespread public support to form, and don't need it to exist, and are structured so that they can ignore the views of their 'members'.
Astroturf that people opinion poll for and even vote for reps to push?
Lots of metrics I cited above wouldn't show up if it was a pure elitist push as you claim.
Yes, Sarcastro. The point of astroturf is to motivate people who wouldn't otherwise be active on an issue by creating the illusion that they're part of this huge ground swell. It's a way of goosing a political reaction that's not quite able to reach critical mass on its own.
So, done well, it does move votes and polls, though only as long as you keep pushing. You stop pushing your cause dies, because it's not spontaneous, it's a hothouse movement.
You want to know where the genuine energy is on this topic, look at the progress of the concealed carry movement. That didn't happen through foundation funded astroturf, it was a real movement.
pretty much the entire political establishment was in favor of gun control there, for a while.
Well, if by "for a while" you mean more than 600 years. And of course there were plenty of restrictions on carriage throughout the country since the beginning.
Originally gun control in the US was about rendering suspect minorities defenseless,
A vastly oversimplified statement. It may have done that, and even been a motivation in some places, but your description is monocausalist nonsense.
One would so hope/expect given that their presence in the U.S. constitutes a violation of U.S. law.
This seems accurate. Those who are criminals and/or have broken laws often do not have the rights that law abiding citizens have. We don't expect felons in prison to have the right to bear arms. Illegal immigrants fall in the same category in many respects.
Begging the question.
While Scalia certainly asserted that the right of convicted felons to own guns could be restricted in a manner consistent with the Second Amendment, we don't have much more than his say-so. How do you justify that limitation? Citations to history prove too much, because the "right to bear arms" at the time of the founding and in England was subject to a number of restrictions, many having nothing to do with one's status as a "citizen" or "criminal." If you bracket the history and look to the reasoning of Heller, you similarly have a hard time explaining this strange carve-out, since it's not obvious why non-criminal citizens have a right to defend themselves from violence, and convicted criminals do not.
In this case, the Eleventh Circuit conflated a person's status as a "citizen" with "loyalty to the crown/sovereign," treating these as essentially equivalent for purposes of determining the reach of the Second Amendment's protections. But being a citizen is not the same thing as swearing an oath of loyalty. If the right of undocumented immigrants to bear arms may be limited because they are not citizens, based on this historical analysis, then a good many of us could be similarly restricted - if we don't want to swear an oath of loyalty to the state in order to own a gun. Never mind that the historical distinction drawn cuts against the reasoning in Heller itself.
Jimenez-Shilon had resided in the United States for twenty years. He has a kid who was born here. He paid taxes. Why shouldn't he have the right to defend himself against violence?
"How do you justify that limitation?"
You justify it by understanding that the original meaning of a "felony" was a crime you could be executed for. Deprivation of a civil liberty was a lesser penalty.
And so losing one or more civil liberties has always been on the table when you're convicted of a felony.
I count myself among those who would be alarmed to learn that a neighbor had a M101 howitzer or that people at the local airport were arming the wings of their Cessna’s etc. with 50-caliber machine guns. So these are easy policy questions (for me). But these topics are completely avoided in discussions of the 2A and originalism. Scalia in particular avoided the problem very deftly, with sophistry.
If my neighbor had a howitzer, I would think that was pretty cool, and I'd want to know if I could come and watch the next time he uses it. (Assuming it would be target practice or some other reasonable/generally lawful use.) But I live in a suburb with 1/3 acre lots, so if any of my neighbors have a howitzer, it's not coming out of the basement very easily.
I mean...it could come out. Depends on what era the howitzer is from. The M1841 is about a pool table in weight. Heavy but managable with a few guys.
The M777 Howitzer...well, now you're talking serious firepower. And weight. And asking "Why does he have THAT in his basement?"
My neighbor back in Michigan had a canon in the front yard. He'd fire it on the 4th of July, and a few other occasions. (Yes, we were rural, his back stop was a couple miles distant.) We used to have joking arguments about his habit of leaving it pointed at my house when it wasn't in use.
I count myself among those who would be alarmed to learn that a neighbor had a M101 howitzer
Why?
Congress doesn’t have to have a compelling interest. There is no basis for conducting any scrutiny at all. The 2nd amendment by its terms defines a “right of the people.” Illegal aliens simply aren’t members of “the people.”
“The people,” like “person,” has a definition. The definition doesn’t include everybody.
Is there any precedent for this view of the definition of "the people" prior to US v Verdugo-Urquidez? It seems suspicious to me that suddenly in 1990 we understood the meaning of the term "the people."
You might notice that the term shows up repeatedly in the Constitution and the Declaration of independence, so it's not like the Court invented it in V-U.
Sometimes the Constitution is clearly using "people" as just the plural of "person", but in other places it made clear by grammar that "people" is being used as it was in the Declaration of Independence, to refer to a particular group of people. They wouldn't have bothered with this grammatical distinction between "people" and "the People" if it didn't mean anything.
Yes, that makes sense. They also could have written citizen, but didn't, so it must mean a larger group than that. As I said above, it's a much more interesting and nuanced question than I realized when I made my first flippant comment.
It is. Identifying "citizens" is easy. Identifying "the People"? Not so easy. I suppose that Congress could arguably settle the matter under the enabling legislation clause of the 14th amendment. I'd go for citizens and legal resident aliens, myself.
It's pretty clear, though, that under no definition of "the People" that would garner more than a tiny amount of support, are illegal aliens part of "the People".
This opinion is shit.
I took this as an opportunity to refresh on Heller, and it's interesting how frequently this opinion diverges from Scalia's textual interpretation of the Second Amendment and his summation of the historical evidence. It's almost like the 11th Circuit had a foreordained conclusion and simply assembled the historical materials helpful to support it - ignoring whatever in Heller might tend to count against their conclusion.
It really depresses me that I'm living in a time of what can only be described as "judicial innovation," as conservative jurists write nonsense into our law in order to achieve desired conservative outcomes.
Think how conservatives feel about it; Except for the odd centenarian, we've lived all our lives in a time of judicial innovation. You perhaps just didn't notice it because it was your side doing the innovating.
Explaining that only the rights that existed in the late 1700s count is a pretty big judicial innovation!
Only rights that already existed could be "retained", obviously. You want new rights, I direct your attention to Article V.
Yeah - your whole paradigm here is itself an innovation, though part of the innovation is how it insists it's not new.
But despite what the politicians insist, scholars (including originalists) are all quite conscious of how new this push is. A new innovation, if not an invention, one might say.
SimonP
May.23.2022 at 11:37 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
"This opinion is shit.
It really depresses me that I'm living in a time of what can only be described as "judicial innovation," as conservative jurists write nonsense into our law in order to achieve desired conservative outcomes."
You mean justices such as Stevens who denied the existence of any historical discussion of an individual right in his heller dissent. Note that Holbrook has extensive citations to historical writings to the individual right
The Court does not appear to grasp the distinction between how a word can be used and how it ordinarily is used.” Check out the scholarship on "bear arms."
Stevens absolutely examined the history. When you find yourself saying that the other side isn't just wrong, they must be lying about it, you may have gone off the factual deep end into pure ideology.
I also think Stevens is wrong, simply due to the general use of arms in early America as a tool. But the idea that such practice could give rise to a right independently of the 2A's specific text is not allowed; hence this revisionist history of what the text of the Heller Opinion says.
Stevens did a good job highlighting the extensive written history of keeping and bearing arms for the "common defence"
What he denied was the existence of the written history of the individual right - which holbrook did document.
So while, Holbrook wrote with an agenda, those events/writings etc noted in holbrook's citations did in fact exist. Stevens and others simply deny the existense
That does not appear to be the argument Steven makes - "The Court does not appear to grasp the distinction between how a word can be used and how it ordinarily is used" looks to me like he's saying that cherry picking supportive quotes does not really prove anything.
Halbrook's citations are pretty dubious.
bernard11
May.24.2022 at 11:04 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"Halbrook's citations are pretty dubious."
Are you claiming Holbrook fabricated those citations?
If so, there would be actual refutation showing the fabrication.
I don't want to speak to bernard, but reading Stevens' dissent, I'd guess it's less that he fabricated sources, and more that he offered them as proof of things they did not prove.
It's not actually either, but rather that they proved things Stevens was not open to accepting.
As you know, I'm not defending Scalia here, who was hardly engaging in originalism himself, and his reading of Miller was an inversion. But Stevens' dissent was much worse in that regard.
Start from the beginning: "The question presented by this case is not whether the Second Amendment protects a “collective right” or an “individual right.” Surely it protects a right that can be enforced by individuals. But a conclusion that the Second Amendment protects an individual right does not tell us anything about the scope of that right."
So, what was his proposed scope?
"When each word in the text is given full effect, the Amendment is most naturally read to secure to the people a right to use and possess arms in conjunction with service in a well-regulated militia."
An individual right to be armed when and where the government demands that you be armed. You might as well suggest that the 1st amendment freedom of speech guarantees your right to give compelled testimony under oath in a legal proceeding! No sane person would describe this as an "individual right". Nor would Stevens ever rule in favor of anybody trying to exercise that 'right'.
Let me ask you, Sarcastr0: Do you think you have an individual right, enforceable against the government, to join the army? Even if the government doesn't want you? It was totally fatuous of Stevens to claim he was describing an individual right!
they proved things Stevens was not open to accepting.
Jesus, Brett. More telepathy. You don't like his argument, so he's not really making it. Stevens thought that the examples offered were not generally applicable. And I don't think the main opinion had much of an answer.
I'm not an originalist, so I don't much care for my own priors, but don't pretend this was just Stevens in denial. Dude made counterarguments, and the main opinion did not really engage.
You gotta quit with this unsupported speculation of the real motives of people you disagree with. Sometimes you can just disagree with someone without going into the malfunction that made them not adopt Brett's take.
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I actually think there is an individual right to enter the army, albiet like with many rights one with exceptions for government interest.
But being able to defend your nation has always been tied with adulthood and full citizenship since Ancient Greece. Part of why gays in the military was such a thing.
Though that's not really a germane discussion - you changed the field from the originalist arguments to a completely other issue. A telling quitting of the field.
Sarcastr0, I'm familiar with Halbrook's sources, I've got his book on my shelf. As a long time 2nd amendment activist I'm pretty familiar with founding era writing about the RKBA. It's not even a close thing, and anybody who claims otherwise IS in denial.
Gun controllers are just in a bad factual position here, the history really does support the gun rights crowd. The only thing the gun controllers have going for them, and it's big, is that the legal community really does not LIKE the 2nd amendment.
Otherwise it would be open and shut.
And, yeah, if somebody had sued to join the National Guard, say, Stevens would have been the first to rule against them. Do you really think that would be a winning case, that states/the feds can't even control the size of their own armed forces?
Sarcastro - "I'm not an originalist, so I don't much care for my own priors, but don't pretend this was just Stevens in denial."
Stevens was absolutely denying the existence of the historical record of the individual right - see the first sentence of the 6th paragraph of his dissent. " The opinion the Court announces today fails to identify any new evidence supporting the view that the Amendment was intended to limit the power of Congress to regulate civilian uses of weapons. "
1) Stevens completely ignores the citations from Scalia and ignores the the well documented events cited by Holbrook
2) Stevens goes to great lengths to explain how the proposed amendment was changed to where it limited the right to only times when serving in the militia - Yet there is no evidence of any objections or debate to limiting the right ? The lack of any debate or objections on limiting the right is telling.
This opinion is shit.
So is everything else you post, so there's no need to preface this particular one with that warning.
Who was this for?
Like, why did you type this contentless bile?
Who was this for?
Given that it was a direct response to a specific post that I quoted from, someone with even your limitations should be able to figure it out.
Like, why did you type this contentless bile?
Have you asked yourself that?
This -- judicial innovation, jurists writing "nonsense" into law, however you perceive it -- is the inevitable result of the radical centralization of government power and the inversion of the original decentralized model of American government.
Of course the "liberal" jurists are far worse in this regard and have been for many decades, your comment suggests you are unaware of this.
The practice of calling the status quo the real radicalism, and using that to excuse to cover your own side's nihilism. That's the real innovation.
Though the real far left is picking it up.
Who was this for?
Like, why did you type this contentless bile?
Really, don't be so harsh towards Eugene.
😛
Because it is broader than the Bill of Rights. The right to vote, the right to contract, the right to travel interstate.
https://law.jrank.org/pages/9429/Privileges-Immunities.html
Except the Bill of Right post-dated Article IV, so arguably both were meant to be included. I believe there is historical evidence to that effect.
But yes, your position is essentially what the Supreme Court did with the P&I Clause.
"but with the EP clause there to emphasize it’s equal application"
The EP clause was literally about equal protection of the law. It was a prohibition on outlawry, the practice of putting some person or group outside the protection of the law, so that you could commit crimes against them with impunity.
Yes, the Congressional debates concerning the 14th were pretty clear about the matter: P&I included, but were not limited to, the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights. Here's a lengthly exerpt from Senator Howard's introduction of the amendment:
"It would be a curious question to solve what are the privileges and immunities of citizens of each of the States in the several States. I do not propose to go at any length into that question at this time. It would be a somewhat barren discussion. But it is certain the clause was inserted in the Constitution for some good purpose. It has in view some results beneficial to the citizens of the several States, or it would not be found there; yet I am not
aware that the Supreme Court have ever undertaken to define either the nature or extent of the privileges and immunities thus guarantied. Indeed, if my recollection serves me, that court, on a certain occasion not many years since, when this question seemed to present itself to them, very modestly declined to go into a definition of them, leaving questions arising under the clause to be discussed and adjudicated when they should happen practically to arise. But we may gather some intimation of what probably will be the opinion of the judiciary by referring to a case adjudged many years ago in one of the circuit courts of the United States by Judge Washington; and I will trouble the Senate but for a moment by reading what that very learned and excellent judge says about these privileges and immunities of the citizens of each State in the several States. It is the case of Corfield vs. Coryell, found in 4 Washington's Circuit Court Reports, page 380. Judge Washington says:
"The next question is whether this act infringes that section of the Constitution which declares that 'the citizens of each State shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States?'
"The inquiry is, what are the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States? We feel no hesitation in confining these expressions to those privileges and immunities which are in their nature fundamental, which belong of right to the citizens of all free Governments, and which have at all times been enjoyed by the citizens of the several States which compose this Union from the time of their becoming free, independent, and sovereign. What these fundamental principles are it would, perhaps, be more tedious than difficult to enumerate. They may, however, be all comprehended under the following general heads: protection by the Government, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the right to acquire and possess property of every kind, and to pursue and obtain happiness and safety, subject nevertheless to such restraints as the Government may justly prescribe for the general good of the whole. The right of a citizen of one State to pass through or to reside in any other State, for purposes of trade, agriculture, professional pursuits, or otherwise; to claim the benefit of the writ of habeas corpus; to institute and maintain actions of any kind in the courts of the State; to take, hold, and dispose of property, either real or personal, and an exemption from higher taxes or impositions than are paid by the other citizens of the State, may be mentioned as some of the particular privileges and immunities of citizens which are clearly embraced by the general description of privileges deemed to be fundamental, to which may be added the elective franchise, as regulated and established by the laws or constitution of the State in which it is to be exercised. These, and many others which might be mentioned, are, strictly speaking, privileges and immunities, and the enjoyment of them by the citizens of each State in every other State was manifestly calculated (to use the expressions of the preamble of the corresponding provision in the old Articles of Confederation) 'the better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of the different States of the Union.'"
Such is the character of the privileges and immunities spoken of in the second section of the fourth article of the Constitution. To these privileges and immunities, whatever they may be — for they are not and cannot be fully defined in their entire extent and precise nature — to these should be added the personal rights guarantied and secured by the first eight amendments of the Constitution; such as the freedom of speech and of the press; the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for a redress of grievances, a right appertaining to each and all the people; the right to keep and to bear arms; the right to be exempted from the quartering of soldiers in a house without the consent of the owner; the right to be exempt from unreasonable searches and seizures, and from any search or seizure except by virtue of a warrant issued upon a formal oath or affidavit; the right of an accused person to be informed of the nature of the accusation against him, and his right to be tried by an impartial jury of the vicinage; and also the right to be secure against excessive bail and against cruel and unusual punishments."
He then goes on to note that these P&I are all only operative against the federal government, And "The great object of the first section of this amendment is, therefore, to restrain the power of the States and compel them at all times to respect these great fundamental guarantees."
From United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez: "The Fourth Amendment phrase "the people" seems to be a term of art used in select parts of the Constitution, and contrasts with the words "person" and "accused" used in Articles of the Fifth and Sixth Amendments regulating criminal procedures. This suggests that "the people" refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community."
Basically, citizens, but the Court is open to including legal resident aliens, too.
Illegal aliens, (They frequently have documents; Fake ones!) don't have much in the way of rights within the US, save to be treated decently while they're being deported. They certainly don't have any right to own guns in the US.
Does the second amendment refer to "the right of the people" or to the right of citizens? Are illegal immigrants people?
They are "people", but they are not members of "the People".
That seems a little bit of a stretch. I think you are flirting with living constitutionalism here. I'm liking it!
How convenient for you.
Weird they didn't say American People, huh?
Because only an idiot would have thought they were writing about the French people.
I agree, Scalia, even if he had been so inclined, (He wasn't.) could not have mustered a majority for a more comprehensive ruling. (Which is why we got Heller then McDonald, then a long period where the Court refused to take cases.) I think maybe Thomas is the only one of them who'd be on board for a totally uncompromising upholding of the 2nd amendment, the rest wanted it limited in some regard that you couldn't really justify from an originalist standpoint, because they had severe misgivings about the consequences of doing so.
I think it's possible the situation has improved somewhat since, just because the empirical evidence that relaxing gun laws doesn't have negative societal effects has accumulated further since Heller was decided, and it's really hard for anybody to argue from a consequentialist standpoint that we don't dare uphold the 2nd amendment more than the Court was prepared to in Heller.
Rolling back gun control is going to be a long incremental process of getting some limit lifted, demonstrating no harm resulted, so the Court can't justify denying the 2nd amendment precluded that limit, rinse and repeat.
Don't be silly, Brett - the ambiguity was not what country, it was if there was an associated country.
You're just adding a word into the text and insisting that's what they totally meant even though they didn't say it.
That's more anti-textualist than any Warren Court purposivism.
Which, BTW, I don't really ding you for - I find pure textualism is not viable partially because of trip-ups like this.
You're not joining the dark side, you're joining the functional side.
While a few senators made confused and inconsistent statements like this in the brief Congressional debate, it seems most of the Congressmen and more importantly the original public meaning did not in any way contemplate the radical centralization of vast swaths of important governmental authority in the hands of a small oligarchy, such as we have today in accordance with modern interpretations of the 14th amendment. That process is still ongoing over 150 years later.
You're positing ambiguity where there isn't any.
From the Declaration of Independence: "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another,"
Using the "people" to refer to a distinct group of people was established, routine terminology. Nobody would have been confused about it.
Setting aside that, among others, you're characterizing the amendment's author as being confused about what it meant...
The 14th amendment didn't centralize governmental authority in the way you describe. It took extant prohibitions on federal action, and extended them to the states. That part was a diminution of state authority without any transfer to the federal government, because it represented an expansion of the rights of individuals.
The only centralization of power in the amendment was the provision allowing for implementing legislation. This wouldn't confer much power if the 14th amendment were correctly interpreted.
"didn't centralize governmental authority...That part was a diminution of state authority without any transfer to the federal government"
Only if you think the federal judiciary is not a part of the federal government.
The power to interpret and define the contours of a right is the power to allow complete infringement of that right or convert it into something unrecognizable. Not to mention the power to "invent" new rights or peer into history to decide what rights emanate from the text. Don't forget, your right to keep and bear arms for example will always be just a few votes from eradication. Especially if you reject remedies the framers considered rightful, such as state nullification.
...Do you think that use of people refers only to the American People, or any set of people?
You're reading the restriction 'American' where none exists, based on insisting this is what the drafters clearly meant.
It would be nice if the EP clause were enforceable against police and prosecutors, so that they couldn't allow politically favored groups to (ahem) Burn, Loot, and Murder with impunity.
Well, it would be, if Congress cared to do that. The 14th amendment does have an enabling legislation clause.
I noted a few years ago that the Klan acts were still on the books, and on the face of them perfectly applicable to Antifa.
Again, Sarcastro, only an idiot would have thought they were referring to any other People. They were writing in America, an American Constitution, and amendments to the same. They did NOT mean the French people.
Language only works if you approach it with at least a little good faith. It has no power to communicate with people who have deliberately closed their minds to understanding it.
It's actually an interesting question, and one that's been written about a lot, which I didn't realize when I made my initial comment to you. There are a number of scholars who more or less agree with Brett, thinking that use of "the people" in this sense falls somewhere between all people and US citizens. SCOTUS seems to have taken a stab at defining this in United States v Verdugo-Urquidez (1990), which is still good law today, I guess.