The Volokh Conspiracy
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Eleventh Circuit Strikes Down Main Provisions of Florida Social Media Law
I'm still going through the decision, in Netchoice v. Attorney General, but I thought I'd note the result:
The question at the core of this appeal is whether the Facebooks and Twitters of the world—indisputably "private actors" with First Amendment rights—are engaged in constitutionally protected expressive activity when they moderate and curate the content that they disseminate on their platforms. The State of Florida insists that they aren't, and it has enacted a first-of-its-kind law to combat what some of its proponents perceive to be a concerted effort by "the 'big tech' oligarchs in Silicon Valley" to "silenc[e]" "conservative" speech in favor of a "radical leftist" agenda. To that end, the new law would, among other things, prohibit certain social-media companies from "deplatforming" political candidates under any circumstances, prioritizing or deprioritizing any post or message "by or about" a candidate, and, more broadly, removing anything posted by a "journalistic enterprise" based on its content.
We hold that it is substantially likely that social-media companies—even the biggest ones—are "private actors" whose rights the First Amendment protects, that their so-called "content-moderation" decisions constitute protected exercises of editorial judgment, and that the provisions of the new Florida law that restrict large platforms' ability to engage in content moderation unconstitutionally burden that prerogative. We further conclude that it is substantially likely that one of the law's particularly onerous disclosure provisions—which would require covered platforms to provide a "thorough rationale" for each and every content-moderation decision they make—violates the First Amendment. Accordingly, we hold that the companies are entitled to a preliminary injunction prohibiting enforcement of those provisions. Because we think it unlikely that the law's remaining (and far less burdensome) disclosure provisions violate the First Amendment, we hold that the companies are not entitled to preliminary injunctive relief with respect to them….
I hope to have more to say soon.
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Face Book, where you are free to say anything except what we don't like and we don't have to tell you why.
More denial of reality by lawyers on the bench. This is ridiclous and toxic. No dissent from the billionaire oligarch agenda to kowtow to China, to further their selfish anti-America agenda. Welcome to Commie China, where only the party line is allowed, lawyers on the bench.
You are still free to preach your bigotry in the public square with your message of hate written on some cardboard with a Sharpie.
Rabbi. Jews of all people should oppose self serving censorship. You need to repent, Rabbi.
Thanks to the lawyer, and their lockdowns, their resulting toxic inflation, hundreds of oligarchs have become billionaires. Meanwhile 300 million have been thrown into real poverty, where they are thin and not eating, not our fake poverty. These oligarchs killed 100 million by starvation, far more than any 20th Centtury tyrant so they could make more billions.
You should be ashamed. You are a disgrace to the Jewish people.
Yeah, I think I'll keep my mouth shut on controversial ideas. Better to be employed than be a Shanda for the Schwartz Goyim.
https://bariweiss.substack.com/p/i-criticized-blm-then-i-was-fired?s=r
Do not worry about the Goyim. Worry about G-d.
"Face Book, where you are free to say anything except what we don't like and we don't have to tell you why."
Sounds exactly like the Volokh Conspiracy (or, for the Mr. Bumbles in the audience, Vol Okh Con Spiracy, with Extra Capitals!).
Volokh Conspiracy. Facebook. Both private entities.
Their playgrounds, their rules.
(Only one of them, though, criticizes the other for exercising the right to remove content or ban speakers.)
Piss off you pompous twit!
Correct. Private businesses shouldn't be told what to do. Unless Elon Musk buys Twitter and the SEC needs to intervene because that threatens democracy.
Is that the same SEC which can bring charges, try you and determine your punishment and then decree that you can't speak about it forever?
No. You misunderstand.
Sounds like someone doesn't understand why the SEC has beef with Musk.
Hint: It's not about democracy; it's about capitalism.
Rev. You still talkin'? Why you still talkin'? You need to STFU. Call back after resigning your job and interviewing your diverse replacement.
Correct.
If you don't like it, build your own social media company.
Impossible with the 3 billion users of Facebook, and its monopoly. Tik Tok has the same policies as Facebook.
Of course it's not impossible. There's probably a good handful of open source social media applications you can pick up and use without much coding experience if you wanted.
While Facebook is a major player in this market, it doesn't have a monopoly despite what you claim and then immediately disprove in the same sentence.
Right. The other term for that is "private property."
What about a requirement to cc: all censored content (or a random sample of it) to a publicly accessible database? Then the public can inspect what's been censored (and criticize the platform for perceived bias), but no one would think of such a database as Facebook's own speech.
That is the same as the publication on Facebook.
"That is the same as the publication on Facebook" -- not quite, if it's off in a corner of the site (maybe even with a different domain name) separate from the normal place people read Facebook. But if it's the same, how about a government-run public database? Publication in that surely is not the same as publication on Facebook?
Dear Republicans,
If you ever want to earn my vote again, you have to show me you understand that "the government which governs least, governs best". Not every problem needs a government solution. In fact most problems don't need a government solution, they need the government to stay the heck out of the kitchen while the chefs settle this among themselves.
Signed,
An Independent
Don't worry, DaveM. The Democrats know that the security of our liberal democracy depends on moderated speech that removes hate speech, misinformation, and disinformation from the public discourse. If Republicans think that trans children are being "harmed" by puberty suppressing drugs, the can hang their 95 Theses to their mobile home door in the trailer park. Big Tech doesn't have to give bigotry a platform.
"If you ever want to earn my vote again"
You won't vote for the GOP unless they "show me you understand that "the government which governs least, governs best". Interesting
Who do you vote for now? The Democrats?
DaveM puts cuntry over party, just like McCain and Romney.
I am currently unrepresented. I suspect I am not alone in that.
Wait, with those criteria are the *democrats* somehow earning your vote?!? I get voting for neither party (which I've done for the last few presidential elections), but that doesn't feel like what you are saying.
Alas, far from it. I have no hopes of Democrats ever being in favor of limited government.
I generally agree with you. But I have been told that Facebook and Twitter live on a government subsidy named Section 230. And if this was taken away, they would collapse. So the question is, what are we the citizens getting in exchage for that subsidy?
Same thing we get from the government subsidies such as allowing limited liability entities (corporations, LLC's etc), Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act and bankruptcy protections: capital formation and the prevention of ruinous liability that could cripple an industry or commerce.
What we're getting out of it is Facebook and Twitter.
We can use regulation to destroy Facebook and Twitter. But you're not going to be able to "fix" them that way, whatever your individual definition of "fix" might be.
I don't see anything inherently "big government" about the concept that media companies who publish user-generated content aren't liable for what those users say. It's not a bad idea at all, it could be very liberty-friendly if implemented properly.
But I don't think our media companies are implementing it properly at all. Instead of using it to maximize liberty, they are using to act like traditional publishers and using the Section as a get-out-of-jail free card.
You've been lied to.
Really? You have posted here repeatedly that if Section 230 would be repealed, these sites would collapse. Care to explain?
Sec 230 prevents frivolous lawsuits. It doesn't protect much beyond what is already protected by the first amendment, but it allows meritless lawsuits from getting past summary judgment.
Without it, sites would likely be bogged down in numerous nuisance suits making it hard for the *smaller* *less wealthy* sites to continue. The sites would eventually prevail on 1A grounds, but only after lengthy and expensive litigation. Facebook, with their army of attorneys, would likely be fine without it. Smaller discussion fora, like this one, might simply stop having comments.
If you think that's a "government subsidy" so be it. I think laws like the ones in Florida and Texas, which are designed to be a litigation factory are a giant government subsidy for attorneys. Not being a lawyer myself, I'm not in favor of that. Were I in a position to bill a bunch of hours on this stuff I might be incentivized to take the contrary position.
Correction:
"...allows meritless lawsuits from getting past summary judgment. "
should be
"...prevents meritless lawsuits from getting past motion to dismiss."
So you think all defamation suits are meritless. You might want to check Prof. Volokh's postings.
FYI, Section 230 by its express terms does not apply to intellectual property claims. How many frivolous IP claims has Facebook, Twitter and Amazon had to deal with?
The DMCA protects them from copyright claims. As for trademark claims, the universe of plaintiffs who can bring those is much smaller.
Some sites would collapse; all would be altered. But that doesn't make it accurate to describe it as a "subsidy." If you repealed all laws forbidding trespass, then movie theaters would go out of business, but that doesn't make it reasonable to describe trespass laws as a "subsidy" to Cinemark.
This is a special law for one industry, without which, they claim, they could not exist. That's very different from general laws like trespass laws or corporate liability laws. Facebook gets to operate under a set of rules that a newspaper, radio station, or TV station do not operate under. You can call it a "special break" rather than a subsidy, but the fact remains that one industry is being propped up by a special rule, courtesy of the US Code. Calling them a private entity, while technically accurate, is a dodge.
That raises the question, in my mind, of whether that industry might also be required to have special responsibilities to the public. There should be a quid pro quo for special treatment -- either some public benefit, or some special behavior.
No. The special law is for the technology, not for the industry. Newspapers, radio stations, and tv stations that have websites are covered by § 230 for their online presences, just like Facebook is.
I know that. But Facebook is completely dependent on the technology which the NYTimes and ABC News are not. Section 230 was enacted to promote development of the internet.
If you bigoted Rethuglicans want to use Gamer Words, just go to 4chan and leave the rest of us alone.
So this is good as long as the left can continue their regimen of censorship. It will soon be bad though once Musk buys Twitter and breaks that up.
You're posting on the Internet right now with no fear of arrest or sanction. Your entire media diet is people hating this supposedly all-powerful liberal censorship system.
You're pretty silly.
Yet most people live their entire life without ever meeting a so-called white supremacist or neo-nazi, "hate crimes" are exceptionally rare, and most public shootings are gang related but you might never know that if all you did was watch the nightly news....
You know Musk is never buying Twitter, right?
And that Twitter is the 15th or 16th most popular social media site as measured by active users. The world won't change much if someone like Musk does buy it.*
*Now, if he does buy it, all those flying pigs will probably be fairly disruptive.
Twitter punches above its own weight in terms of number of users because of who uses it: politicians and the media. TikTok has a lot more users, but most of them are a bit less… prominent.
Theres tons of far more draconian laws for decades regulating monopolies to nearly widespread acceptance but suddenly its unthinkable for the specific purpose and only the specific purpose of curbing sjw censorship.
With the deadly rise of white supremacy in America, Biden might just have to enact new executive orders that force AT&T, Verizon, and Comcast to censor hateful communication. Think of the Black children!
You're actually far less clever than you apparently believe yourself to be.
Yeah that must by why. Federalist society member and Trump appointed judge Kevin Newsome who also worked under Pryor in the Alabama Attorney General's office definitely wrote this opinion because of his love for sjw censorship
Is Newsome an Ivy indoctrinated lawyer scumbag? If he is, he is dismissed, just another big government, rent seeking swamp creature.
Trump was a weak leader. He was totally played by the lawyers. On Inauguration Day, he should have fired the FBI and replaced them with real police, the DOJ, and mandated they cut federal crime like 100 million internet crimes, the State Department, a bunch of Commie traitors, the brass of the DOD, and replaced the pencil pushers with warriors.
Saying that a law is unconstitutional and they don't have to provide detailed reasons is the exact opposite or big government and means they can't be sued so also the exact opposite of rent seeking.
You copy and paste this nonsense on every post. You can at least refrain on doing it in ones that directly contradict your thesis.
Yes, speech is more protected from the government than business decisions are. Imagine that.
The surviving parts of the law require a social media platform to
* “publish the standards, including detailed definitions, it uses or has used for determining how to censor, deplatform, and shadow ban.”
* inform users about rule changes before implementing them
* provide view counts on request (which is controversial for reasons unrelated to censorship)
* notify candidates when they have provided free advertising
* allow a deplatformed user 60 days after deplatforming to retrieve user-provided content
The invalidated requirement for an explanation of censorship was said to be too vague and burdensome. Maybe it could be narrowed to be constitutional. Then you would get a notice like "a user clicked a button to report your post and we disabled your account for violating our hate speech policy." Which is fairly useless.
I was on team "let the company do its thing" until big tech (Apple/Google/Amazon/etc) eviscerated Parler. "Make your own social media company with moderation rules to suit yourself" became "make your own top to bottom infrastructure, including mobile OS, server farms, credit card charging, etc". Now I don't particularly care if the government messes with them.
Not a user of Parler or Twitter mind you, and use Facebook in only a very limited way.
This is an antitrust argument against Apple and Google... which you'll find plenty of support for on the left.
This shows a lack of understanding for how the internet works or how internet applications work in general.
1) you need to find an ISP/host for your site where the content on your site doesn't violate their private, corporate terms of service. Porn sites have issues with this all the time. This isn't new.
2) You don't need your own mobile OS. That's just silly. Android can easily sideload anything. Again, porn sites have this figured out. You can also build a web-based mobile application the use can link to via a phone icon that just opens a web browser and loads your application. There's two ways to easily and quickly get around a mobile OS issue.
3) Credit card charging. Also, see: porn sites.
What I find ironic are the number of "small government" people who want the freedom to discriminate against others in their private businesses getting upset about private businesses not wanting to do business with them in return.
I understand the internet very well. An app that needs to be side loaded will never succeed broadly, which is critical to something with network effects like social media. It is an insurmountable barrier. And having service providers drop you with no notice, as AWS did you Parler is incredibly disruptive. The need to develop a complete top to bottom ecosystem to run a social network that doesn't want to one sidedly censor content is insane to me. If they are going to hound a baker into making a cake, I see no reason to make the legal warfare asymmetric.
And yet Truth Social seems to have surmounted it? 8CHAN is still out there, alive and poisoning minds. Just about every flavor of porn is available out there right now. I have to assume that at least a few educated people swallowed a red pill and can figure out how to set up a social media company for incels, nazis, and fascists. It's a big planet and the internet is global.
But if there isn't enough grey matter among the crazies to set up their own authoritarian hate-fests online, I'm certainly not going to provide any instruction on how to get that done.
Your main complaint seems to be centered on the fact that you'd have to build your own user base and cannot just take advantage of a pre-existing set of customers from Facebook or Twitter. The tech stack is easy. Getting people to come is the hard part. Just ask Devin Nunes (and Devin Nunes' Cow).
A different strategy just occurred to me.
What if Florida made political beliefs a protected class, the same way race, religion, etc are? After all, in the past certain states added protected categories like sexual orientation, gender identity, etc before the federal government did. You can always add to, not take away from, so why not add that?
Then on that basis, shutting off people's Twitter accounts because they don't believe in trendy gender theories would be a protected class and therefore illegal.
No, I don't think that's the optimal solution, but as long as we have to deal with these laws and bakers are being forced to decorate gay wedding cakes, why not beat them at their own game?
From a legal standpoint, could that work?
Um, whose political beliefs would be a "protected class"? Would it be historically "disadvantaged" beliefs in this country like communism, atheism, anarchism, or ones currently under attack like "Critical Race Theory" "White Supremacy" "Anti/Pro abortion" and other wedge issues. If everybody is in a protected class, you don't have a protected class. The 1A prevents viewpoint discrimination by the government. "Political beliefs" do not create a "class" because it includes the entire population.
Why can't everyone be a member of a protected class? Each has different values for the attribute in question to be discriminated against, so why doesn't that matter?
Why would you count only "historically disadvantaged" attribute values? Also, "historically" over what time and what locations? "Disadvantaged" to what extent? Can you actually produce an objective measure for those?
California bans workplace discrimination by political affiliation; do you think this makes discrimination law in California meaningless?
That's not how any of that works.
Race is a protected class. Discrimination on the basis of race is illegal. The justification for that rule is historically disadvantaged groups but the wording of that rule makes it as illegal to discriminate against whites as against blacks. (There is still some bigotry and selective enforcement among those responsible for enforcing the rule but that's a separate problem.)
Religion is another protected class. It doesn't matter which religion you are (or even if you aren't), nor does it matter which religions were "historically disadvantaged" at which point in history. You can't discriminate on the basis of any religion even though "religion" as a category includes everyone.
Note that some states already consider political beliefs to be a "protected class" - that is, that it cannot be used as a basis for discrimination (in at least some contexts). Yes, that functionally includes everyone. No, it has not resulted in a collapse of the process.
Bakers are not being forced to decorate gay wedding cakes. Jack Phillips chose civil disobedience, and he never baked the damn cake.
I wonder, though, why gays want to buy food products from someone who loathes their very existence. That seems risky to me.
Assuming your aside was a serious question:
Mostly they don't know the baker is a bigot until they try to get a cake.
As a married gay person, the last thing I wanted when I was researching cakes was to bump into a jerk who'd ruin the celebration. For every couple that sued the baker, there are probably countless others that just found a better one. Not everyone is willing to accept harassment and I appreciate those that stood their ground.
You don't think it's harassment to try to force somebody to bake a cake for you? You're the only one in the room who deserves to have any choice in the matter, maybe?
You're no more harassed by being required to bake the same cake for one customer as you would for another than you are by being required to make the same eggs and coffee for one as you would for another. Does the '64 Civil Rights Act harass you?
Wow, you really DO think it's not harassment to force people to do as you want.
Yes, Brett thinks the '64 Civil Rights Act harasses restaurants into serving minorities. There are a lot of people who think that, most just have the sense to not say it out loud.
I suspected he felt that way, but wanted to give him a chance to deny it. Once again, hope springs disappointed.
You've got a pretty unworldly notion of what constitutes force. By that standard no slave was ever forced to pick cotton, because they had the choice of being whipped to death.
"I wonder, though, why gays want to buy food products from someone who loathes their very existence. That seems risky to me."
I see your mistake: You think Phillips was sued by people who wanted cake. Nope!
Nobody went to Phillips looking to buy a gay wedding cake; If they'd wanted a cake they'd have gone someplace else. They went to Phillips looking to buy a lawsuit.
No. Twitter's First Amendment right to censor takes precedence over an anti-discrimination statute.
If that's true, then a person's first Amendment right not to bake a gay wedding cake takes precedence over an anti-discrimination statute.
I agree with that, but not everyone else does, and legally it hasn't been settled.
That assumes the existence of a first amendment right not to bake a gay wedding cake.
I also assumed Twitter has a First Amendment right to censor which, like the baker, is not settled law (and the resolution of one likely has no bearing on the resolution of the other).
Why don’t phone companies and mail carriers havw a First Amendment right to editorialize the medsages they wish to transmit?
The 11th Circuit erroneously assumes that the messages transmitted by means of Facebook’s network are Facebook’s property, or that Facebook can simply appropriate them as its property. The First Amendment doesn’t create a right to appropriate others’ property or make their messages your message.
Government can require Facebook to separate out the businesses of creating its own messages and transmitting others. It gets editorial control over its messages, but not others’ messages that it facilitates over its network.
Congress can like pre-wmpt state law where a national network is concerned. But the First Amendmwnt does not protect general message-transmission networks from being designated as common carriers and subjected to common carrier limitations.
Sure it does.
Ah, but that's the distinction you're missing.
Messages aren't "transmitted by means of Facebook's network". Messages are hosted on Facebook's servers. At Facebook's discretion, they may make a copy of the message and send that to someone else, but they never stop holding the message.
A social media company in which the company didn't hold onto messages would be closer to e-mail or SnapChat, one of which is a protocol not a company.
I quite agree there is a distinction, and it is a fundamental one. Telephone, mail, email, and text messages are point-to-point delivery protocols. No one but the sender and the receiver know the content. Message boards, web sites, social media feeds, and public texts are broadcast protocols.
That's not really the distinction.
I can send out a text message from my phone to hundreds of people at once.
I thought the issue was Facebook blocking messages. The ownership issue only applies to messages that Facebook doesn't block, because in that case Facebook is deriving value from content that it didn't create. But if Facebook blocks a message, preventing anyone except the creator of the message from viewing it, then Facebook isn't deriving value from distributing the content.
I don't use Facebook, but that sounds like a requirement that Facebook exit its current business. Isn't the fact that Facebook exercises editorial control over others' messages the reason people use the platform? You seem to be saying that government can outlaw social media platforms, or at least the type of social media platform that people generally prefer.
"Isn't the fact that Facebook exercises editorial control over others' messages the reason people use the platform?"
Where did you get that idea? I don't think in all the years I was on FB I ever experienced FB's editorial control, both positive and negative, as anything more than an annoyance. If they weren't blocking something I did want to see, they were pushing something I didn't want to see.
People go on FB to communicate with other people, not so that some stranger can edit their communications with other people.
No. People go on FB to have a curated experience in communicating with other people. Of course nobody wants his own post to be moderated. But people want other things posted there to be.
If they just wanted to "communicate," there are a million ways to do that. Facebook provides a specific experience.
Except for FB annoyingly pushing content in your direction unsolicited, (Which is also curation.) the only stuff you'd see is stuff you volunteered to see. Why would stuff you volunteered to see make you want curation?
Bellmore — Finally, a question useful to illuminate what is going on. Good work.
Make it a point to notice. YOU are not the point of the curation. You are the product to be sold. The audience in general IS curated, to satisfy the need of the publisher to raise money to keep in business the institutional press the publisher operates, which generates many expenses. 1A press freedom cherishes and protects that ability to operate an institutional press, and counts it a public asset when it succeeds.
Bellmore — To answer further—and to take better account of Nieporent's response which you responded to—what you want on Facebook when you post there is access to the curated audience which Facebook has mobilized for your use. The publisher, Facebook, is tasked to exercise the judgment, use the diligence, and expend the energy to keep away from that experience all the myriad disruptors which make would-be advertisers shun the site, or make would-be readers of your comments flee elsewhere. Those are reasons why it is impossible to enjoy enduring press freedom without empowering a publisher to perform those tasks.
It is a separate consideration, but equally applicable, that empowering a publisher to edit at pleasure, incentivizes publishing as an expressive activity, and protects liberty of expression.
cell phone companies have been caught censoring the pvt text messaging of people who sent links to their friends from non democrat favored websites
Perhaps the cell phone companies were merely trying to protect their revenue, by keeping their paying customers from killing themselves by self-medicating with aquarium cleaner.
Assuming anything was happening, what make you suppose you know what motivated it? Privy to their plans, were you?
pretty weak sauce there Stevie
The court provides an easy path for any information transmitter who wishes to to assert ownership and control over the information transmitted. Avoiding being a “dumb pipe” is easy. If Fedex should wish to read your mail and refuse it unless it agrees with your message, or to copy it and use it itself for whatever it wishes, it need merely “curate” the mail, arrange it in its desired format, add in additional content of its own choosing such as advwrtising, and arrange what the recipient sees. That way, it becomes a content curator, not a dumb pipe.
Any phone company could do the same.
Who wants to be a dumb pipe? Nobody need be one.
What the 11th Cirrcuit has done is a bit like distinguishing between content created with a press and content created with (say) offset printing for First Amendment purposes. One can avoid the First Amendment simply by using a provess that doesn’t involve physical printing.
The 11th Circuit’s treating editorial control over other people’s mail as protected on grounds that if editorial control is asserted, it is by definition not mail, effectively lets common carriers define themselves out of being common carriers by making minor, easy tweaks to their process.
The courts have to look at the function of the platform in society. Does it function like mail? If so, it can require separating the carriers’ own messages from the messages transmitted by others, and can prohibit content-curating the transmitted messages as distinct from the carrier’s own messages. It can require the message transmission function to behave more like “dumb pipes.” The carrier can then provide its own messages on top of that if it wishes.
Yeah, e-mail is already a thing. Social media isn't it.
Who'd use FedEx if they insisted on reading your mail? Facebook does not function like mail. Email functions like mail. I've never been on Facebook and have no problem communicating with anybody I want to.
FedEx wants to be a dumb pipe. That's their business model, and they actively sought common carrier status. If another company entered the package delivery business and decided not to be a common carrier, I'm not sure that would be a problem. People who prefer dealing with common carriers would not have to use the new company.
You have it backwards. The 11th circuit effectively prevents the government from interfering with a business's first amendment rights simply by chanting the magic words "common carrier."
The government cannot control the NYT's editorial decisions by saying, "We declare you a common carrier. Now you don't have 1A rights."
Common carrier is a status that a business must implicitly elect by choosing to operate as a common carrier; it's not something the government can impose on a business.
It seems the Florida legislature, as well as some of the posters here, have missed the point that the 1A is a restriction on the Government, not a restriction on a private entity.
If you want to stand on the public street with a racist sign then you don't impact my rights, if you want to stand in my yard with a racist sign then I will require that you cease and desist those actions.
It's really that simple.
Except that it's not really that simple. Absolutist interpretations of privacy rights have not been upheld by the courts in many, many years. Those interpretations would invalidate common carrier laws, public accommodation laws and most anti-discrimination laws. Unless you are ready to argue that those laws are just as unconstitutional as the Florida law, then it's not simple.
It is simple. The Florida law infringes 1A press freedom. The key question is liberty to publish or not, at pleasure. The state cannot burden that.
Here is the decision explaining that:
We hold that it is substantially likely that social-media companies—even the biggest ones—are "private actors" whose rights the First Amendment protects, that their so-called "content-moderation" decisions constitute protected exercises of editorial judgment, and that the provisions of the new Florida law that restrict large platforms' ability to engage in content moderation unconstitutionally burden that prerogative.
The, "private actors," bit was a clumsy diversion from the point, but the rest of the passage makes the court's point clear enough.
The other laws which aggrieve you do not bear on the 1A press freedom question.
We been trying to tell you this over and over but you just won't listen will you. Will you yahoos start paying attention now?
They're holding out for Thomas, Alito, et. al. to ride over the horizon and save the world. And they may get their wish - there seems to be a circuit split between 5th and 11th. The appeal of the 5th's decision is on Alito's desk right now.
Hopefully, he'll consider the thorough and well thought out 11th opinion and give it more weight than the vacuous non-reasons provided by the 5th. We'll soon see whether being a soldier in the culture wars trumps sober jurisprudence.
EV: "I'm still going through the decision, in Netchoice v. Attorney General, but I thought I'd note the result.. I hope to have more to say soon."
I'm curious to hear more. It seems that the 11th pretty well eviscerated the "common carrier" argument that Prof. Volokh has been pushing. i.e. you can't just invoke the magic words "common carrier" and ignore the first amendment.
From the opinion:
"If social-media platforms are not common carriers either in fact or by law, the State is left to argue that it can force them to become common carriers, abrogating or diminishing the First Amendment rights that they currently possess and exercise. Neither law nor logic recognizes government authority to strip an entity of its First Amendment rights merely by labeling it a common carrier. Quite the contrary, if social-media platforms currently possess the First Amendment right to exercise editorial judgment, as we hold it is substantially likely they do, then any law infringing that right—even one bearing the terminology of “common carri[age]”—should be assessed under the same standards that apply to other laws burdening First-Amendment-protected activity."
I would be happy with a law requiring “community guidelines” and moderation policies to be clear, concise, and equally enforced with an aggrieved party able to recoup damages if he can show he was suspended for a policy violation while others, whose posts were also in violation, were not.
In short; you can have whatever editorial policy you want, but it has to be clearly stated and equally enforced.
That sounds good. Unfortunately, it runs smack dab into the reality that content moderation at scale is not so simple.
Facebook takes down over one million posts per hour, and receives about 100 petitions to appeal those takedowns per hour. YouTube nukes about half a million posts per hour. Most of this is automated by AI algorithms because no humans could possibly keep up with all the bots posting the millions of "undesirable" posts per hour.
Now, if you have a "clear and concise" explanation of how neural net technology (artificial intelligence) works you should post it for the world to see. Because the more you learn about neural nets and AI, the more you realize that you'll never really understand why they do the things they do.
1) Why does it “have to” be? How is that any more permissible under the 1A?
2) What “damages”?
3) It can’t be equally enforced. There are millions of moderation decisions every day. There is no way to ensure that each of those is “equally enforced,” especially given that that’s a subjective standard.
“You suspended me for saying X, but you didn’t suspend him for saying Y, even though that’s just as bad.” But who says X and Y are equally bad?
In short; you can have whatever editorial policy you want, but it has to be clearly stated and equally enforced.
CFred, here is my editorial policy: "I am the publisher, and I will do as I please."
Clear enough for you? Satisfactory? If not, explain what law you can invoke to compel me to do otherwise.
CFred — Also, please note that I am not a fan of the current state of governance for internet platforms. I am only saying that whatever remedy will be applied cannot be one which suspends press freedom for publishers. I suggest that a good place to start would be to repeal unconditionally Section 230, and to enact, insofar as possible, policies to encourage profusion and diversity among smaller private publishers. The idea would be to assure among a myriad of choices an appropriate place to publish almost any opinion.
Is there not a myriad of choices of places to publish almost any opinion now?
There are over 100,000 usenet newsgroups, few of which have any sort of moderation, so there's a place to publish any opinion. Usenet is open to anyone, distributed worldwide, and except for obvious spam almost devoid of any moderation. It's also almost devoid of users for the above reason.
Oh, you want to post it where people will actually see it? That's different. (c:
Seriously, we are living in the golden age of voicing our opinions. Never in the history of civilization has almost every common person had the ability to publish their thoughts where potentially everyone else could read it. The thing is, to attract an audience the sites have to exercise some kind of content moderation.
That's what bothers Lathrop so much. He desperately wants the government to craft a system which requires the existence of professional gatekeepers.
Clem:
Never in the history of civilization has almost every common person had the ability to publish their thoughts where potentially everyone else could read it.
Nieporent:
That's what bothers Lathrop so much. He desperately wants the government to craft a system which requires the existence of professional gatekeepers.
Nieporent has, without realizing it, become sufficiently familiar with my arguments to make himself smarter. After he comes to understand my motivation, he can aspire to become wise.
Clem, your comment quoted above is a worthy ambition, as is the prospect of universal salvation cherished among some religionists. Leaving those aside, in the real world, that ambition of yours is utopian, because it is at odds with the means necessary to deliver capacity to fulfill it.
Unfortunately, the, "thoughts," which too many folks aspire to publish anonymously, cost-free, world-wide, without prior editing, have the power to destroy the publishing media needed to deliver the desired result. Even Nieporent understands that. His comments on other threads demonstrate that.
Nieporent has not yet got around to accepting the implications, which include an indispensable need for prior editing to prevent libel. (Nieporent curiously allows himself to advocate prior editing as a private freedom of property ownership, but refuses it to my advocacy, because he judges private editing to prevent libel equivalent to government censorship. Nieporent is a libertarian).
But in this case the ideological commitment to propertarian prerogative which Nieporent favors, arrives by accident at the correct policy destination. You cannot, without provoking an astounding backlash, publish libel world-wide, anonymously, without even knowing you are doing it, because you read nothing before publishing it. Do that, and people will come to hate press freedom, bit by offended bit, and those hatreds will coalesce into a political storm which press freedom will not withstand. That storm is brewing already.
I should mention, however, that the libel question is key to preventing the storm, but does not by itself account for all the public hatreds against publishing, or even most of them. If it requires prevention of libel, the law assures private reading and editing initiative. That in turn enables non-governmental private judgment—dispersed among myriad private publishers—to constrain within publicly acceptable bounds, without actual suppression, such lunacies as Qanon, the Big Election Lie, the Comet Ping-pong attack, and the malignant spread of Replacement Theory. Most, but not all, private editors look at stuff like that, and make decisions which do indeed prevent their spread.
The key to the beneficial effect of that arrangement is that unlike government censorship, it cannot be perfectly efficient. Some private publishers will find profitable niches catering to any and all of that suspect advocacy. That is a good thing. Suppression is arbitrary, in ways which competition in the marketplace of ideas is not. If the consensus judgment of most private editors turns out mistaken, which can happen, then increasing numbers will reform their views, and new ideas rightly tested and found virtuous will begin to spread. But if the consensus judgment of most private editors turns out correct, their efforts to stop the spread of lunacy before it gets published will work like the control rods in a nuclear reactor, absorbing enough stray neutrons to neutralize a chain reaction before a critical mass can explode.
The method described is a means to mobilize private initiative, group judgment, and the marketplace of ideas, to deliver a beneficial result. We do not need to speculate about any of that. It is a system tested over long practice, and proved to work.
Your "We need censorship because otherwise there is going to be a backlash leading to censorship" will never not be stupid, Lathrop.