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Girgis: A Thought on Equal-Protection Arguments for Abortion Rights
My colleague and friend Sherif Girgis has sent me the following thoughts on the Equal Protection Clause and the momentous abortion case on the Supreme Court's docket.
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The leaked Dobbs draft spends pages arguing that abortion is not a deeply rooted unwritten right. That's had me thinking more about the most powerful alternative argument: that abortion rights follow from the enumerated right to equal protection. I want to float a thought on this family of views.
The arguments come in two varieties. A leading proponent of one variety, from whom I've learned (and to whom I owe) a great deal, is Professor Reva Siegel, who co-filed an amicus brief in Dobbs. She argues that we cannot explain prolife states' policies in terms of their professed concern for fetal life alone. Those policies also reflect invidious motivations, like stereotypes about women's "proper" role as mothers before all else. Other equal-protection arguments, including Professor Jack Balkin's, focus less on motivation than on impact. They suggest that prolife states impose burdens on women they wouldn't tolerate on men. Either way, the idea is that abortion bans—viewed together with prolife states' other policies—reflect or impose sexist double standards.
The draft opinion finds the equality arguments foreclosed by two cases holding that laws regulating sex-specific procedures don't trigger scrutiny absent some animus and that we needn't posit animus to explain abortion laws. Critics respond that this answer gives the equality arguments short shrift and refuses to revisit two precedents (including Geduldig, which for some has been overruled in the court of history) in an opinion rejecting much bigger ones.
To be fair to the Dobbs majority, the equal protection arguments depart not only from two cases but from the Court's global framework for equal protection law—with its focus on disparate treatment rather than impact and on classifications as triggers for scrutiny. But Balkin says that departing from these doctrines would take us closer to the Constitution's original meaning. Here I'll assume that he's right. Specifically, as needed for both the unfair-motivations and unfair-impact versions of the argument, I'll assume a doctrinal framework in which courts may reach equal-protection judgments by studying the whole body of a state's statutory (and common?) law to draw (1) inferences about the state's systematic motivations toward particular groups and (2) counterfactual judgments about how the state's laws might change if the burdens they imposed fell on different groups than they currently do. Granting all of this, I have a concern about the equality arguments for abortion access that isn't based on current precedent.
To preview: Despite their professed goal, the equality arguments ultimately have to assume that it is not even permissible for states to believe that fetal life is innocent human life. That the Constitution itself somewhere mandates a position on fetal moral worth—one that discounts early fetuses. But this was the weakest and most widely criticized premise of Roe and Casey. So the equality arguments would be no stronger than Roe and Casey's rationale. In which case, for the Dobbs majority's purposes, they would fail for the same reasons. In fact, the premise they shared with Roe/Casey would be doing most of the work in the equality arguments for abortion: there would be little left to be done by the appeal to equality itself.
For background, I'll begin with Roe and Casey's rationale (since equal-protection arguments are supposed to improve on it). In their own telling, Roe and Casey rested at bottom on a balancing of two interests: the interest in aborting and the interest in protecting fetal life. They held that the moral balance tips toward the fetus (enough to justify protection) only at viability. (See pp. 340-341 & n.46 here.) And they ascribed this moral discounting of pre-viable fetal worth to the Constitution. But for this they gave no historical or precedential support. Effectively, then, Roe and Casey depend on the surprising premise that the Due Process Clause takes a position found nowhere in our history on when the human fetus counts enough to be protected—that the Clause itself rejects higher estimations of pre-viable fetal worth.
Few appreciate that it was Roe's defense of this particular premise that John Hart Ely and Laurence Tribe so famously scorned. Ely said Roe's argument for discounting pre-viable moral worth was transparently circular, "mistak[ing] a definition [of viability] for a syllogism," and Tribe wrote that one has to "read[] the Court's explanation" for this premise "several times before becoming convinced that nothing has inadvertently been omitted." And Dobbs's historical analysis argues that the Constitution does not enshrine Roe/Casey's moral premise that pre-viable fetuses lack sufficient worth. (As I explain toward the end, states could be free to regard fetal life as human life even if they aren't required to by the Fourteenth Amendment—i.e., even if fetuses aren't constitutional "persons.") So if the equality arguments are to advance the ball—in particular, if they are to escape any rebuttals on the merits that Dobbs makes against Roe and Casey—they must avoid resting on this constitutional discounting of early fetal worth.
Some aspire to do that. The equality arguments summarized by Professor Reva Siegel and Professor Neil Siegel (and here by just RS) recognize a "bona fide interest in protecting potential life." Granting that abortion bans are partly "about" protecting "the unborn," these arguments don't say this motive is off-limits under the Due Process Clause. (So they see no inherent constitutional problem with regarding fetal life as innocent human life weighty enough to justify abortion restrictions.) Instead, equality arguments say prolife states' policies also reflect other motivations—or have effects—that are forbidden, but by a different clause: equal protection. Specifically, as Siegel and Siegel sort them, these arguments rest on one of two broad claims: that (1) prolife states unjustly burden women in ways they would never burden men, and that (2) prolife states must be motivated by bias against women. I'll take them in turn.
- "Gendered impact of abortion restrictions": The first argument is that by banning abortion without offsetting the burden to women in certain ways (e.g., without "providing material resources to support" mothers), states would impose X burden on women that they would never impose on men.
But I don't see how this argument could really grant the premise that it is constitutionally permissible for states to see fetal life as innocent human life (as needed if it's to improve on Roe/Casey).
To grant this and still establish a sexist double standard in the burdens prolife states would impose, the argument would have to identify situations where those states would lift burdens like X from men (but not from women) at the cost of legally permitting the intentional taking of innocent life or something morally comparable. And it's hard to see how one could show that. What policy protects men's interests at the cost of legally permitting the intentional killing of innocents or anything morally close to it?
The costs of pregnancy cannot be trivialized. And unfortunately, given the limits of our technology, some of those costs cannot be transferred to another person or a machine. But if the equal-protection arguments are to add anything to Roe and Casey, they must allow that the costs of permitting abortion might also be grave—possibly as grave as permitting the intentional killing of innocent human life. And assuming those are the costs, we have to think of something similarly morally bad that prolife states would tolerate to benefit men, if we're to establish a double standard. (Or find other combinations of cost and benefit that reveal that prolife states in particular apply more generous tradeoff rates for men than women.)
Compare: The costs of conscription—separation from friends, family, and work, and possibly death—fall on able-bodied adults. That doesn't mean that they reflect animus against the able-bodied relative to the disabled. That's because we couldn't transfer those costs even if we wanted to; we have very weighty reasons to tolerate them; and there's no evidence that we would refuse to accept similar tradeoffs when the disabled are the ones bearing the costs.
- "Constitutionally suspect judgments about women": A similar issue plagues the second family of equality arguments, which go like this: By banning abortion but failing to protect human life in XYZ other ways (e.g., reducing abortion rates by providing "appropriate and effective sex education" or enhancing health outcomes by "provid[ing] assistance to needy families"), states manifest not only concern for fetal life but also impermissible attitudes toward women (e.g., "stereotypes about women's roles as child bearers before all else").
In other words, prolife states are too callous toward human life in other contexts for their abortion bans to reflect a pure (admittedly legitimate) concern for fetal life, rather than suspect judgments about women.
But to establish that, this argument would have to identify situations where prolife states not only fail to effectively promote life in XYZ ways, but do something as callous toward life as withdrawing the protection of homicide laws from a class of innocents. Is failing to subsidize certain forms of health care—or failing to subsidize childcare, or for that matter failing to subsidize childcare when this will make someone marginally likelier to get an abortion—the moral equivalent of denying the protection of homicide laws to a class of innocents? It seems not to be.
But if we can't point to such situations, we haven't shown that prolife states' policies must have a hidden, invidious motivation.
To be clear, I think no matter what their abortion policies are, states can and should do more—much more—to support pregnant women, parents, and children. The narrow analytic point is just that withdrawing the protection of homicide laws from (what are conceded arguendo to be) innocent human lives is generally worse than failing to provide resources. With born persons, for instance, we must protect everyone against homicide, but we don't automatically give everyone every vital resource in every context—due to scarcity and costs, the unintended effects of some redistributive policies, competing policy needs, and other tradeoffs. So if states can see abortion as the intentional killing of innocents (as equality arguments mean to grant), they can see a world of difference between withdrawing the protection of homicide laws from the unborn, and giving the born and unborn this or that form of public support. We needn't posit that this difference is motivated partly by suspect judgments about women.
We may have more direct evidence that some particular prolifers harbor biased views about women. But we also have empirical evidence that many do not: the tiny gender difference in public opinion on abortion and high proportion of prolife women. From the 1970s onward, the gender gap on abortion has consistently been smaller than on almost any other political issue. If suspect judgements about women drove prolife views, then women would hold constitutionally infirm views about women at nearly the same rate as men. And in absolute terms, just under half of all American women would be guilty of misogyny and plagued by false consciousness. The fact that prolife or antiabortion views are barely more common among men than women, and are quite common among women, is a serious point against suspect-judgment arguments.
More broadly, there's no context where states must license something they permissibly see as comparable to the intentional killing of one group, in order to secure equality for another group. Nor any context where we would even wonder whether equality required such a thing.
So the equality arguments must, after all, presuppose that it is not permissible for states to see fetuses as innocent human lives on a par with the born—that states must discount the intentional killing of fetal lives. But then equality arguments will need a defense of this further, purely moral claim. That defense will need to improve on Roe and Casey's plainly circular one. It will need to trace this claim about fetal moral worth to some part of the Constitution, in order to justify its imposition by courts. And if an argument did all of that, I don't see what further work would remain to be done by appeals to equality. A constitutional abortion right would already have been established. (Those convinced by Peter Westen's argument that appeals to equality never do the work in an argument about rights will be unsurprised if it turns out to hold true here.)
Let me head off one possible objection: I think an argument (or a court) can hold that states may see unborn human life as morally comparable to born life, without assuming that fetuses are "persons" for purposes of the Fourteenth Amendment. In fact, Roe and Casey themselves taught that saving X's life can be a compelling interest even if X isn't a person; they said just that of viable fetuses. Under Roe and Casey, post-viability abortion bans were permitted (though they burden a right) because they serve a compelling interest—but not required, because the late-term fetus isn't a constitutional person. (See pp. 340-341 & n.46 here.) Here, by analogy, the idea that fetuses aren't constitutional persons doesn't entail that states may not regard them as such.
In sum: Even granting the equality arguments' claims about the meaning of the Equal Protection Clause, the proper doctrines for implementing it, and the unsoundness of Geduldig and other precedents, I think the arguments fail to establish an abortion right unless they assume with Roe/Casey that the Constitution itself takes a position discounting fetal moral worth. If Dobbs's historical analysis proved that the Constitution does no such thing, it would refute the equality arguments, too.
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The leaked Dobbs draft spends pages arguing that abortion is a deeply rooted unwritten right.
Does that sentence say what was intended. I read the Dobbs draft, and that seems off. Maybe, ". . . arguing against the proposition that abortion is a deeply rooted unwritten right?"
"Those policies also reflect invidious motivations, like stereotypes about women's "proper" role as mothers before all else."
More feminist lawyer denial of reality. The sole purpose of life is reproduction. The rest is bullshit in the service of that aim. Women are more important than men, and superior in value and in status. The Yale indoctrinated lawyer cannot understand that.
I am interested in her sexual orientation, her child bearing history. From her picture, she looks rape proof. Should a member of the KKK be allowed to file an amicus brief in a case of black civil rights, or does he lack standing to do so? An argument can be made, she hates the American family, and needs to STFU.
I thought the exact same thing. It has to be a misprint or an oversight.
Ginsburg dissented in Baze because of the remote possibility that the guilty would suffer pain in his exectution.
Yet ginsburg and the rest of the Pro death cult show any concern for the pain that is suffered by the innocent babies in the abortion process.
It’s worse than that. In the first Carhart decision, Stevens and Ginsbuurgh wrote a concurrence making a stronger argument than the majority opinion, that it is IRRATIONAL for the state to be concerned about the amount of pain that feuses experience.
That just shows the extreme hypocrisy of the pro-abortionists.
its wrong to condemn those guilty of the most henious of crimes to death along with any possibility that those guilty might feel a tinge of pain, yet perfectly okay with killing the innocent for convenience purposes - with no thought or reducing the pain felt by those innocent.
Ghastly.
Given the clear documented evidence that abolitionists were riddled with improper motives and often treated slaves as pawns for their animosity against Southerners that slavery apologists had voluminously accumulated, and given the clear disparate impact of abolition on Southerners, the Equal Protection argument against the 13th Amendment ought to be open and shut.
If we are willing to give the arguments against slavery the same sort of hypercritical scrutiny as people are giving arguments against abortion (and notable proponents of slavery like John Calhoun gave exactly these sorts of arguments at the time), we ought to be willing to reach the same result.
Except that the 13th Amendment is part of the Constitution and it explicitly bans slavery. Period, full stop. Once it's been ratified, the motives of its authors are irrelevant.
You're right. The idea of a 14th amendment case against the 13th amendment is nonsensical.
However I think ReaderY intended to make a broader point about whether interpreting EP in this way makes any sense at all. And it doesn't.
In another thread someone claimed that pro-life state legislatures being unwilling to prosecute mothers who abort their babies for first degree murder proved that their claims that fetuses are persons with a right to life were "fatuous." So then did the fact that the same people who abolished slavery thereafter maintained segregation and other discriminatory policies prove that their claims that all people are created equal were fatuous?
No, it proves that people can and do hold internally inconsistent positions.
Though I suppose the argument could be made that blacks shouldn't be slaves but they weren't equal to whites either.
Not all slaves were black. Not all blacks were slaves.
And that would be a valid point except that this specific conversation is about blacks who were slaves.
My mistake. I thought it was about slavery regardless of the race of the slave.
It started out that way, but then ML made the following comment:
"So then did the fact that the same people who abolished slavery thereafter maintained segregation and other discriminatory policies prove that their claims that all people are created equal were fatuous?"
Which slightly shifted the subject from slavery regardless of race to the condition of ex-slaves under Jim Crow. In your defense, it was a fairly subtle subject shift.
I agree with Professor Bray that in both cases, if you start with the premise that there’s objectively no moral concern, it’s easy to find evidence that others’ moral concern is pretextual.
I continue to think that the similarity of arguments and rhetoric in the two cases is worth paying attention to.
In my view, fetuses have for constitutional purposes an analogy to extraterritorial aliens. The term “person” in the Bill of Rights does not apply to them. The Constitution itself provides no constraint on what we do to them. We can make war on them and kill them for any reason or no reason. We could kill them without the formality of war. We could hunt them for body parts, or for sport, or shoot them for target practice if we wanted to. The Constitution wouldn’t stop us. Laws and treaties would. But we could repeal laws and abrogate treaties if we wanted to.
But nonetheless, the fact that the Constitution does not itself protect them in no way implies a judgment on the Constitution’s part that they are not worth protecting. Even when we go to war against them, the Constitution permits laws that require Americans to expose themselves to additional risk and danger to avoid harm to enemy prisoners of war and civilians. The Constitution permits us to kill citizens of other countries, but it in no way requires it. Congress could declare a particular war, or war in general, immoral if it wanted to.
The situation with fetuses is, in my view, similar.
Nice argument I had not thought about
Once again, as so often with would-be originalists, you have to distinguish historical analysis, from what passes in legal circles as historical analysis. I doubt what Alito did in draft Dobbs would pass muster among academic historians.
In a comment on a another thread, I hypothesized Alito did attempt a historical analysis of common-law cases from the pre-19th century era, found too much contrary evidence for his taste, and so structured his argument about history and tradition to discount to zero about 200 years of especially constitutionally relevant history. I surmise that because of a curious shortage of North American case citations during that historically crucial interval.
My review was less than thorough, and I am open to being corrected. I suggest someone with more legal acumen than I have team up with a few good colonial-era historians and take a hard look at it.
your accusing Alito of doing what Stevens did in his Heller dissent - except Stevens flat out ignored historical writings on the individual right.
Joe_dallas, Stevens was right to ignore those "writings," unless they were somehow connected directly in the historical record to constitutional framing of Article 1, or of the 2A. Which they were not. The militia clause, however, was directly connected.
The historical problem Scalia confronted in Heller is that a right to keep and bear arms already existed, variously protected by state constitutions—with special historical salience for, "variously." Special salience because there is no historical reason to suppose slave states and free states could ever have been reconciled on the question of a right to arms for self-defense for everyone.
Given that, it is a logical historical supposition to attribute to deliberate reticence the lack of citations to a personal self-defense right in actual constitutional debates about the 2A. If you think it through, it would actually have been somewhat fantastical to imagine northern delegates reconciled to an explicit constitutional provision to deprive slaves of arms, or southern delegates reconciled to a constitutional provision which might imply slaves enjoyed such a right. A presumption that the founders deliberately bypassed that confrontation fits the record. But it is admittedly speculative.
Scalia's historical task was to show that the 2A—for some reason explained nowhere in the historical record—supplanted those state constitutional protections. Without any citations anywhere to show that happened, Scalia was left flailing with a badly crafted history and tradition argument, which he botched terribly, because Scalia did not know the first thing about historical reasoning. He could have done better, but probably could not have been strongly persuasive to skeptics. As it happened, no one should find Scalia's history and tradition argument persuasive.
That does not mean your remark about Alito and the Dobbs draft does not have potential to critique my argument in that case. But any history-and-tradition debate about a common law, pre-constitutional era must turn on a meticulous handling of case results. If Alito did not even attempt that, as the Dobbs draft suggests—or worse, if Alito attempted it, got results he did not like, and excluded the whole analysis to hide what he did not want critics to see, that has to be counted a fatal weakness in his history-and-tradition argument.
To resolve questions like that is why I suggest an intensive investigation by professional historians with also some legal guidance. Problem is, if the decision gets announced before that is done, it's just a mess. Unless folks think the whole history and tradition bit was superfluous, which is what I suppose the comeback would be. Alito, however, did not seem to think it superfluous.
Stephen Lathrop
May.19.2022 at 3:20 pm", Stevens was right to ignore those "writings," unless they were somehow connected directly in the historical record to constitutional framing of Article 1, or of the 2A. Which they were not. The militia clause, however, was directly connected."
Holbrook 's well documented research on the topic - basically destroys any credibility to your response and Stevens distortion of the historical record in his Heller dissent.
Joe_dallas, like Bellmore, you are in completely over your head. You have so little notion of history as a scholarly activity that you cannot even tell who practices historical research, and who does not.
I wish it did not feel like such a waste of time to try to explain what you would need to know. I might give it a try, but it would be the longest article of any kind ever published on the VC. So to get me to try, you would have to show a good deal more curiosity and open-mindedness than I have seen thus far.
Instead of me doing it, let me recommend to you a book. It is called, ON HISTORY, and Other Essays. Michael Oakeshott wrote it. He was a great conservative historian, and philosopher of history. The book is always available on Amazon, and inexpensive. Get a copy, and see if you can understand the first 48 pages, an essay titled, Present, Future and Past. Do not expect easy reading. The concepts turn out to be subtle, and the analysis rigorous. With considerable professional training in history, it took me 3 slow readings to grasp most of what Oakeshott was teaching me.
What it would absolutely teach you, is not to jump to conclusions about professional expertise which grapples with challenges you never dreamed existed.
Holbrook provided significant number of citations to the original source document. It is those source documents from which I reach conclusions, not from the "historian" presenting their version.
there is no question Stevens distorted the historical record when he denied the existence of historical writings of the individual right.
Please explain how Stevens and you or any good historian would deny the historical record in the face of those source documents?
Please explain how Stevens and you or any good historian would deny the historical record in the face of those source documents?
Joe_dallas, typically, in historical research there is a judgment whether a particular source is relevant to the topic at hand. To assert that some document exists, somewhere in the past, which expresses support for an individual right to bear arms for self-defense, is not even remotely sufficient to establish relevance for an argument that such a right was installed in the 2A by the founders.
To show individual self-defense as a 2A right, you must have a record demonstrating that the founders created it, on purpose, at a specific time and place relevant to the drafting of the 2A, and that their draft was ratified afterward. That is a requirement not satisfied, nor even implied or suggested historically, by evidence that some other group, drafting a state constitution, for instance, put such a right into that document.
It is entirely possible that what actually happened in the past is that some states protected individual self-defense with firearms for everyone, some protected it for only some people, and some protected it indifferently or not at all. And that none of them knowingly ratified a document which would replace their own preferred governance on the firearms subject with something different, to be enforced alike by the federal government against everyone. The historical record probably shows the founders left the self-defense right out of the federal constitution on purpose, to give states scope to tune the question to their particular purposes. But that is only historical inference from the surprising lack of proof to the contrary. Thus, it cannot be asserted as fact any more than the contrary.
If Holbrook's ambition is to show historically something happened which no one else has ever provided even one citation to demonstrate, then Holbrook has to come up with the records to prove it. Show me a citation you rely on from Holbrook, and I will try either to suppress my surprise while I adjust my view of history, or explain to you why Holbrook's source(s) fail the test of relevance.
I will be happy to play along if you think you have something. I do note that historical records have been ransacked for decades by experts looking for the key citation which would show what you want. If that bit of evidence were known to exist, it would, of course, have been Exhibit A in Heller. It is not there.
I am truly impressed by your ability to distort the historical record
The is no question that a large bulk of historical writings discuss the right to form militia's for the "common defence". Yet as there is also considerable historical writings about the right to keep and bear arms for individual protection and considerable historical writings about the right to keep and bear arms for both the common defence and personal use and protection. Those source documents are noted in Holbrooks research.
There is zero historical writings that the right to keep and bear arms is LIMITED to serving in a militia.
Joe_dallas, your final sentence is correct. But it is also entirely consistent with my comment you are responding to. A right to self-defense with a firearm does not have to be protected by the 2A to exist. It can be protected, for instance, by a state constitution, as I said. It can also be an after-the-fact graft of a court-made right onto a federal constitution which did not previously protect it—which happened with Heller, whether redundantly or not.
What you can show from the historical record, is ONLY that the militia right was protected by the federal constitution. Highly specific and provably relevant citations from the historical record are available to do that. For whatever reason, such citations are unavailable for a federal right of personal self-defense.
The kind of negative inference from less-than-relevant evidence you insist upon may strike you as logical. But it is a kind of logic which historical research must forbid, lest history be read to mean absence of relevant evidence is as probative as its existence.
To allow that would be to license making stuff up and calling it history. You could, in fact, use that method to approve Bellesiles. His thesis that a notable gun culture did not exist in pre-revolutionary America has not ever been disproved—something which would be very difficult to do—to prove a negative from colonial-era records. What has been disproved is that Bellesiles had the historical evidence necessary to back his assertions. That lack of relevant positive evidence was regarded as sufficient to cast him out of the historical profession in disgrace.
The kind of argument which disgraced Bellsiles cannot be a kind anyone else can use to prove a right of self-defense in the 2A. Thus, the custom in academic history is that you must find in the historical record evidence to support what you say actually happened. It is not that you must posit that it could have happened, while pointing to tangentially relevant possibilities which cannot be proved to apply.
I remain open minded. Cite me a few of the best sources relied upon by Holbrook, and I will take a look, and see if despite my low opinion of what I have seen previously from Holbrook, he has done better than I realized. I will be happy to show my work, not just hand you an ipse dixit.
But let me caution in advance, if all you have to show is previous state constitutions, or citations to dates which post-date ratification, then those are right out. They cannot be taken as relevant. Nothing the founders did in state law, nor anything they did after ratification of the 2A, is in the least bit relevant to show what the founders, or anyone else, intended for the meaning of the 2A.
To redouble the point—with reference to a soothingly off-topic subject—I will offer you another example to show why those kinds of assertions are irrelevant. Suppose you want to show, for instance, that Spinoza's thought was influential in the framing of the Constitution. There are some thematic similarities to suggest that could be. But you lack any citation to any founder who says something like, "According to the esteemed political philosopher Spinoza, we will do well to frame the Constitution this way, and I propose we do it." Instead, what you have are two historical facts of interest. Both Jefferson and Franklin had in their personal libraries books which discuss Spinoza's ideas.
Here is the problem. Even if you suppose that each founder bought those books out of interest in Spinoza, instead of for something else in the books, you have no real proof whether their interest was motivated by intentions favorable to Spinoza, hostile to Spinoza, or by something else entirely. Knowing that Jefferson and Franklin could have seen Spinoza's ideas discussed tells you nothing to show either founder ever even read their books, let alone endorsed those ideas, or rejected them. The presence of Spinoza's ideas in the personal libraries of two key founders turns out to be essentially useless to historical analysis, for want of further information to show relevance. Relevance is the key. Find examples to show that.
"If Holbrook's ambition is to show historically something happened which no one else has ever provided even one citation to demonstrate, then Holbrook has to come up with the records to prove it. Show me a citation you rely on from Holbrook, and I will try either to suppress my surprise while I adjust my view of history, or explain to you why Holbrook's source(s) fail the test of relevance."
Holbrook has numerous citations to source documents through out his book. Pick anyone of the 50+ citations
I do not have Holbrook's book. Years ago I gave up on Holbrook, who failed to impress me as intellectually honest. Still, he may have written something better than what I rejected.
You are the one relying on Holbrook. You pick me out a few of the best citations you can find, and I will do what I can to discover if they can claim historical relevance. I will take it straight down the middle, and concede any points Holbrook's scholarship has earned.
To show individual self-defense as a 2A right, you must have a record demonstrating that the founders created it, on purpose, at a specific time and place relevant to the drafting of the 2A, and that their draft was ratified afterward. That is a requirement not satisfied, nor even implied or suggested historically, by evidence that some other group, drafting a state constitution, for instance, put such a right into that document.
Wrong
Completely, utterly, totally wrong.
The point of "original understanding of what the Constitution mean, by the general public" is that it doesn't matter what the drafters thought in their minds, it's what was in general discussion at the time.
So the fact that the American people believed at the time that people had a right to self defense, and that that self defense right was tied to a right to keep and bear arms, is ALL that is needed.
Finding diary entries by people who voted for the Amendment is pretty irrelevant, compared to that
Greg J, what you defend is not about history. It has to do with non-historical ideas about how to interpret law. In this case, I might better have said, anti-historical ideas, because they were cooked up specifically to obviate (without answering) objections that would-be originalists could not support historical "analyses" they offered, but could not substantiate.
AFAICT, you will never find a would-be originalist lawyer willing to let a historical expert check his work. Lawyers invented originalism to give themselves a ballpark with rules they alone could govern, and use to win the contests they wanted to win. Their idea was and is to escape all constraint, while pretending to be constrained by immutable evidence (which they proceed to make up).
That is why there have been so many successive theories of originalism. Each has been shown to deliver bogus history, and thus to deliver no meaningful constraint. Each time that happens, a new version is posited, to keep the game going.
The version you insist on above is among the worst. It is based on a preposterous belief. It is the belief that a historical evidence problem daunting to solve by the difficult-but-sometimes-possible analysis of records created by a few individuals, could instead be solved better by the utterly impossible analysis of all the historical records created by everybody, everywhere, throughout time.
I am not playing that game. I am talking instead about rules professional academic historians live by. They are rules developed over long practice to limit mistaken interpretations about the past. They do not offer much power to assist legal interpretation. But when that interpretation is mistaken, those rules have considerable power to blow up the mistakes.
The practice of history is an intellectually challenging activity. It presents reasoning pitfalls undreamed of by laymen uninitiated in the field—which means it works like other professional endeavors. I doubt you will ever find a professional historian who, absent separate professional legal training, would claim any expertise in legal interpretation. Nor would it be likely for an economist to do that, nor a medical doctor, nor a physicist. But for some inexplicable reason, or for no reason, lawyers by the dozens count themselves competent to practice history on their own, completely untutored. It is rare indeed for any of those to avoid making a fool of himself.
Each such effort delivers an inadvertently invented past—a past which professional historical analysis can show is demonstrably mistaken. So the trick of the originalist must finally be to bypass the historical analysis, avoid review, and put invented historical fictions directly to work governing legal outcomes.
Your comment above amounts to advocacy for that.
Stephen Lathrop, the point of the "militia clause" is that it's protecting access to military weapons.
And that it applies to everyone, because every adult male was part of the militia
Hold up.
At the time the constitution was ratified, the bill of rights applied only to the federal government. The states could limit the right to bear arms however they saw fit at the founding, but the federal government could not.
Then incorporation happened (a gradual process after the 14th amendment), which ended up applying most of the bill of rights against the states.
So no slavery fight was brewing at the founding, because the bill of rights was never originally intended to apply to states in the first place. And after the civil war, the 14th amendment extending the right to bear arms to black people in southern states was almost certainly part of the point.
(That's specifically no slavery fight about the right to bear arms. There were other obvious slavery fights brewing).
Squirreloid, if an orginalist bill of rights included only the militia right, how did subsequent incorporation against the states endow them with anything except the militia right? Seems like pro-gun enthusiasts would be better advised to stick with the notion that their protections have all along depended on rights conferred by states.
"historical analysis"
Aren't you a photographer, not an historian?
The lens only captures what the photography wants you to see
Well actual historians say Alito's "analysis" is non-sense, so maybe you should ask them.
"Once again, as so often with would-be originalists, you have to distinguish historical analysis, from what passes in legal circles as historical analysis. I doubt what Alito did in draft Dobbs would pass muster among academic historians. "
Then where are those "academic historians" taking apart Dobbs?
My review was less than thorough, and I am open to being corrected. I suggest someone with more legal acumen than I have team up with a few good colonial-era historians and take a hard look at it.
So, it's your serious claim that no one has ever tried to do that, in the 50 years since Roe? In the almost 2 years since ACB replaced RGB, not one group of abortion supporting "colonial-era historians" have tried to come up with a historical defense of Roe / Casey?
Really?
Yes, I know, absence of evidence is not proof of absence. But at some point you have to put up or shut up.
When is your side going to "put up"?
Greg J, the historical problem with Alito's Dobbs draft is not to take it apart. It is so weak, thin, and fragile that the historical problem is to put some meat on its bones, to get it strong enough to stagger upright. That is a job for anti-abortion advocates.
Pro-abortion types need only point out that Alito seems to have left out completely any North American history encompassing the first two centuries—including the entire era of the enlightenment, the least pietistic period in the nation's experience.
Subtract those two centuries, subtract the Roe/Casey era, and all you have left from Alito is a notably shorter interval encompassing approximately 1825 to 1950—featuring an abortion legal regime which for the last 50 years has been explicitly rejected by the Supreme Court.
On that basis, Alito loses hands down the historical argument on history and tradition. He will, of course, ignore that, and find another means to get where he wants to go. But without history and tradition to point to, the only way he gets around stare decisis is to say, "I want what I want. This bench, these robes, and 4 like-minded colleagues give me the power to impose what I want."
"Greg J, the historical problem with Alito's Dobbs draft is not to take it apart. It is so weak, thin, and fragile that the historical problem is to put some meat on its bones, to get it strong enough to stagger upright"
Bzzt, wrong, thank you for playing, we have a lovely parting gift for you.
Alito's Dobbs draft is abotu to become the law of the land. If you can actually identify a problem with its history, provide it, with links.
All you've given is hand-waving bullshit. That's not worth a response.
Here, let me give you a template:
"Alito says the case was X. Y is actually what the case was."
Unless you can honestly fill in an X and Y (I've seen a bunch of people with dishonest Xs., which makes their writing pointless) you've got jack, and when the Alito opinion comes out with 5 votes you're encouraged to go off in a comer and whine, while the rest of us laugh at you.
It's "put up or shut up" time. Alito put up. Now it's your turn. Stop babbling about how great your side is, and tell us precisely what's wrong with what Alito wrote, or give us a link to one of your vaunted "academic historians" telling us exactly what Alito got wrong, with quotes and references.
If you've got it, I'll read it. but I'm not going to read you wanking about how great your side is, when you have no specifics to back it up
Stop babbling about how great your side is, and tell us precisely what's wrong with what Alito wrote, or give us a link to one of your vaunted "academic historians" telling us exactly what Alito got wrong, with quotes and references.
What did Alito get wrong? He LEFT OUT quotes and references. The history and tradition argument IS NOT THERE. It does not exist. There is nothing to critique, except an unfounded claim that a history and tradition argument features in the decision.
A decision against abortion based on Alito's draft will make it brutally plain to everyone that the Supreme Court no longer cherishes its legitimacy. It would show the Court proposes to rule the nation by pure power.
Some fools will applaud that. You may suppose it can happen. Others note that the Supreme Court does not have power to exert. The Court in its present form will not last long after trying that.
How long until reform will depend on how much time it takes Democrats to mobilize political power sufficient to transform the Court. They will no longer hesitate. It could be as little as 2–4 years. It might be a decade or more. That's politics.
When the transformation comes, it will not happen as right-wingers suppose. It will not be a few extra seats added during Democratic administrations, then countered by a few more seats to push the pendulum the other way during subsequent Republican administrations. It will be sweeping reform, to create a court with power to preclude that kind of tit-for-tat, and restore substantive majority rule permanently.
What did Alito get wrong? He LEFT OUT quotes and references. The history and tradition argument IS NOT THERE. It does not exist. There is nothing to critique, except an unfounded claim that a history and tradition argument features in the decision.
Which ones?
Again, this is just more babbling BS.
Here, I will give you another format you can use:
"Alito quoted X as saying Y. He left off Z, which completely invalidates his claim. Here is a link to the actual contents of X, showing what he left off"
Exactly what mental pathology is it that keeps you from making an actual legitimate argument? News flash: no one gives a damn about your unsupported word vs Alito. So, you can keep on relying on it, if you don't have any actual arguments. Or you can produce the precise things he supposedly got wrong, with yoru supporting proof for your claim.
Since I've yet to see you do that on any subject, I won't be holding my breath. But I will check back later to see if you're provided anything
At it's core - you have a classic clash between law & ideals vs factual reality.
The law & ideals side says that every person must be treated equal in every respect regardless of gender or sex.
The factual reality is that the female sex, and only the female sex can produce eggs and bear children. You can't get around that no matter what your ideals are, no matter what pronouns you use, no matter what laws you pass.
"The factual reality is that the female sex, and only the female sex can produce eggs and bear children."
Disinformation. Men can get pregnant. Science.
All laws relating to abortion apply equally to all, regardless or real or perceived gender.
In the same way, laws relating to rape apply equally to all, regardless of the sex of the perp.
The lawyers have now swept in a lot of extraneous non-rape rape under the legal heading of "rape" but until fairly recently you couldn't commit a rape without having a penis. Consequently, it was in practice a crime that only males could commit.
And that 'sexist" crime doesn't even kill a human. But it remained on the books all the same.
Of course females could aid and abet a rape, or participate in some sort of conspiracy to achieve a rape. But then males can, and frequently do, aid and abet abortions, and conspire to procure or perform them. And were States to get enthusiastic about criminalising abortion, those male aiders and abettors, procurers and performers would be in the frame. Indeed IIRC the Texas Bill aims primarily at the procurers.
Not sure if you were being sarcastic or not, but while some people who call themselves "men" have gotten pregnant, none of them have been males. In every case, it was a FtM transgender person. In other words, born female.
"They suggest that prolife states impose burdens on women they wouldn't tolerate on men. "
Or, states don't have laws preventing men from having abortions because men can't get pregnant.
Balkin has the biggest un-deserved reputation on the left. There are dumber law profs on the left but Balkin is taken seriously.
But there is a certain amount of misogyny in anti-abortion laws that assume that because she's a woman, it's just fine to deprive her of bodily autonomy for nine months and then force her through the pain of childbirth for a child she doesn't even want. Because the whole point of being a woman is to be a wife and mother; If there were anything comparable that involved men I doubt we'd be having a serious conversation about it.
To be clear, I think there are far better reasons to oppose laws against abortion. But I've spent enough time listening to pro-lifers to know that misogyny is part of it.
What abortion laws are based on the premise that it's OK to "deprive" a woman of her "body autonomy" "because she's a woman"?
This seems like a very vague and strawman-based argument. Are you saying you once heard a few pro-lifers make what you think are misogynist statements therefore it's a part of all pro-lifers?
What law against abortion *doesn't* result in depriving of woman of her bodily autonomy because she's a woman (since only women get pregnant)?
What law against abortion *doesn't* result in depriving of woman of her bodily autonomy because she's a woman (since only women get pregnant)?
That is, of course, completely different from your actual claim:
But there is a certain amount of misogyny in anti-abortion laws that assume that because she's a woman, it's just fine to deprive her of bodily autonomy for nine months and then force her through the pain of childbirth for a child she doesn't even want.
But you know that, you lying hack.
Wuz, it's a huge shame that you and the Reverend Arthur L. Kirkland aren't gay, since you'd make a fantastic couple: You are to the right what he is to the left. You'd be perfect for each other.
"Assumes" and "results in" are not mutually exclusive; they can be part of the same package, and one can be an expansion of the other. But I really don't have time this morning to explain English to someone on whom it would obviously be a lost cause.
I'll ignore your homoerotic fantasies.
"Assumes" and "results in" are not mutually exclusive;
Nor are they interchangeable, which is what you're so weakly attempting to do...you lying piece of shit.
But I really don't have time this morning to explain English to someone on whom it would obviously be a lost cause.
OK, Mr. "Fetuses are committing civil trespass".
"Fetuses are committing civil trespass" isn't an issue relating to English; it's an issue relating to law. You can't even keep up with the category of what's being discussed.
And no, I'm not attempting to make them interchangeable; I'm talking about different things in different parts of the conversation. During a conversation, sometimes the subject shifts slightly. Again, try to keep up.
And fantasies? God no. Just pointing out that you are the right-wing equivalent of Arthur Kirkland.
"Fetuses are committing civil trespass" isn't an issue relating to English; it's an issue relating to law.
It's an issue relating to you being a moron.
And no, I'm not attempting to make them interchangeable; I'm talking about different things in different parts of the conversation. During a conversation, sometimes the subject shifts slightly. Again, try to keep up.
Bullshit. The question:
"What abortion laws are based on the premise that it's OK to "deprive" a woman of her "body autonomy" "because she's a woman"?
This seems like a very vague and strawman-based argument. Are you saying you once heard a few pro-lifers make what you think are misogynist statements therefore it's a part of all pro-lifers?"
Your response:
"What law against abortion *doesn't* result in depriving of woman of her bodily autonomy because she's a woman (since only women get pregnant)?"
Pull your head out of your lying ass.
"Because she's a woman" would mean that is the motivation behind the law. Rather than, say, wanting to prevent the killing of children.
You seem to be confusing motivation and effect... although I'm pretty sure most abortion laws would also prevent pregnant men (if there were any) from getting abortions.
Not necessarily. A law can have pristine motivations, but if it has a biased impact, it can still violate equal protection. A company's policy of requiring the janitors to have high school diplomas was held to be racially discriminatory since it was in a location in which few blacks had high school diplomas, and there was no connection between being a janitor and having a high school diploma. I doubt the company deliberately set out to exclude blacks (though maybe it did; this was North Carolina in the early 1970s), but it had the practical effect of shutting out blacks, so it was held to violate the law.
And it's really the same issue as in Bostock -- sexist assumptions about gender roles. Women are supposed to be wives and mothers.
What does equal protection have to do with misogyny?
You were accusing the people that support anti-abortion laws of being misogynists.
The law does not normally concern itself with motivations (i.e., you're a misogynist) as with results. I said that some pro-lifers are pro-life because they are misogynist, and also that the law produces an unequal impact on women based on sexist stereotypes. The two positions are not mutually exclusive (unless you're Wuz, who seems to think that talking about different things at different points in the conversation makes you dishonest).
The two positions are not mutually exclusive (unless you're Wuz, who seems to think that talking about different things at different points in the conversation makes you dishonest).
Pretending that you were talking about "B" when you actually were talking about "A"...when "A" and "B" are not interchangeable and you know that...makes you lying piece of shit.
I talk about A when I talk about A, and I talk about B when I talk about B. And you seem not to be able to tell the difference. In fact, you have this recurring problem in which you will claim I said something that is almost, but not quite, what I actually said. Try to keep up.
In fact, you have this recurring problem in which you will claim I said something that is almost, but not quite, what I actually said.
Given that I always quote you verbatim when talking about what you've said we can chalk this up to yet another in a looooong list of bullshit claims by you....you lying sack of shit.
It's not the quotes that are the problem; it's your interpretation of them.
You were discussing anti-abortion laws. You attributed a motive to them, which is only rational if you meant a motive to the people that passed and support them. Now you've also added that the impact to women is entirely because of "sexist stereotypes". You are not arguing these as separate topics, but directly attributing one to the other.
Can you show that the reason anti-abortion laws exist is misogyny? Or that the reason those laws have an "unequal impact on women" is because they are based on sexist stereotypes? (What stereotypes and how are the laws based on them, btw?)
Toranth, it's a fairly subtle distinction, so perhaps I should have been more clear.
The human brain does not put things in categories that are isolated from one another; that's not the way human reasoning works. For something as complex as abortion laws, you're going to have motives (plural, since different legislators have different motives), subconscious motives that the legislator isn't even aware of, stuff that the subconscious has tossed in without really thinking it through, assumptions, and unintended consequences, frequently lots of them.
So it's not a matter of "you were talking motive and now you're talking about result." A drunk driver didn't intend to kill someone, but he did intend to get behind the wheel of the car, so he's responsible for the fact that someone is dead. And that's really what I'm talking about here: Even if no single legislator consciously intended to pass a misogynistic piece of legislation, a misogynistic piece of legislation is what we ended up with.
Now, is misogyny the reason for anti-abortion laws? It's one of them. There are others. It's certainly the practical result.
No one had the intention, but the end result had the intention?
How the hell does that happen?
Every part of every law was written by someone, who intended to write it. Any effect that law is intended to have is something that a creator intended for it to have.
Nor can you have intent for "unintended consequences" - the very concept is a contradiction in terms.
Similarly, unintended emergent effects cannot have intent themselves because they are not alive and do not think.
Discussing subconscious motives is even sillier, as any statements about them are just unfalsifiable garbage. Unless you've developed a telepathy machine you haven't told anyone about, you're projecting your own views on to other people.
As far as I can tell, all you want to do is call people you disagree with "misogynists" without actually giving any reasons or evidence.
Toranth, I'm disappointed that you would think "the results had the intention" follows from what I said. That's not quite Wuz territory but you're getting close.
If a law produces a misogynistic outcome, it doesn't really matter if that was the intention or not. In this case, there is a certain amount of misogyny in the intention, though there are other reasons as well. If you still don't get it I can't help you.
Misogyny is an attitude. It exists only in the minds of people.
There cannot be a "misogynistic outcome" without intent!
You have can have a disparate impact. But that's not misogyny.
You are attempting to apply a word that describes a mental state to things that do not have minds. That doesn't work and isn't rational.
Either go ahead and describe the legislators as misogynists (as you've been implying the entire time) or stop trying to pretend that there is any misogyny involved in your focus on disparate impact. But this swimming around trying to assign motive to inanimate things is just dishonest.
You're confusing a consequence with a punishment?
You're confusing a consequence with a punishment?
He's either too stupid to understand the difference between an outcome and a motive, or he's pretending to be that stupid, and is therefor a lying piece of shit.
"What law against abortion *doesn't* result in depriving of woman of her bodily autonomy"
Excluding consideration of rape and incest, none of them.
It doesn't deprive her of bodily autonomy because she's a woman; it deprives her of bodily autonomy because (and only when) she's pregnant.
Right, just like anti-miscegenation laws aren't technically racially discriminatory because blacks and whites can both marry someone of the same race they are. Blacks can marry blacks; whites can marry whites; neither of them can cross the color line, so there's no discrimination, right? Wrong.
"But I've spent enough time listening to pro-lifers to know that misogyny is part of it."
Matt Gaetz is a perfect example of this. He's an insufferable jerk-ass frat bro who clearly isn't against sex outside of marriage or non-procreative sex. And what is his belief about women who oppose abortion restrictions? That they're interested in their bodily autonomy? Nope, it's that they are "over-educated" and lonely cat ladies. A clear loathing of women who don't defer to him.
Men like Matt Gaetz don't dislike all women -- just the educated, reasoning, modern women. They don't mind compliant women, "traditional" women, uneducated and dependent women, mail-order brides, etc.
Now do Marjorie Dannenfelser: https://www.thecut.com/article/marjorie-dannenfelser-abortion-roe-v-wade.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab
I suppose she's against abortion because she's a misogynist who views women as child-bearers above all else? (I would note that the article, while not agreeing with Dannenfelser, is at least fair to her, unlike those who engage in cartoon stereotypes about pro-lifers whose prime motivation is keeping women down.)
Just because you can find exceptions doesn't mean something isn't generally true.
pew research did a poll recently that showed almost zero difference in abortion opinions between men and women.
The Mississippi Law aligned almost perfectly with the vast majority of the US population.
So I don't think abortionists are doing themselves any favors to believe this is all some conspiracy by Gaetz.
Lol. It’s not “a conspiracy by Gaetz” he’s just a prominent example of a guy who clearly has issues with women being anti-choice,
"But I've spent enough time listening to pro-lifers to know that misogyny is part of it."
"I've spent enough time listening to pro-abortion people to know that they're motivated by being Molock worshippers who eat babies for lunch."
You're completely full of crap.
Please identify any statement made by any pro-choice people that could reasonably be interpreted as Molech (not Molock) worshippers who eat babies for lunch. Then get some toilet paper and wipe your mouth; it's got shit all over it.
Please identify any statement made by any pro-choice people that could reasonably be interpreted as Molech (not Molock) worshippers who eat babies for lunch.
**** WHOOOOOOSH *****
OK, maybe you're not pretending, and you really are as braindead as you make yourself sound.
Oh wait, you actually thought the two statements were comparable? Apparently the limited amount of credit I gave you was still too much.
"I've spent enough time listening to pro-lifers to know that misogyny is part of it"
You have listened to all pro-lifers no doubt.
Its about an innocent human life of which over 50% are female.
It's mostly about religion.
Some are even honest and self-aware enough to admit it.
I'm honest and admit that my religion compels me to oppose the deliberate taking of innocent life. It's why I also oppose euthanasia, wars of aggression, and political terrorism (including the terror bombing of cities during war).
And you are absolutely entitled to your religious belief. If you stuck to advocacy, education, encouragement, peaceful protect, speaking against it, I'd be fine with it. It's when you seek to make your religion that law of the land that we part company.
I'm honest and admit that my religion compels me to oppose the deliberate taking of innocent life.
It's when you seek to make your religion that law of the land that we part company.
So you oppose anti-murder laws?
If the only reason for legislating against murder were religious, then yes. But as it happens, there are plenty of secular reasons for legislating against murder too.
Do you not think there can be any secular reasons to oppose abortion?
Polling shows that non-religious people support at least some abortion restrictions by almost 70% to 30%. About 20% of non-believers say abortion should be always or almost-always illegal.
Even 47% of atheists support some restrictions.
Only 19% of people of all stripes say abortion should be always legal.
And that's for the "general" question. When polls starting pinning down ages, it gets even more supportive of restrictions. For banning elective abortions after 14 weeks, there was 60% support. Jump it to 24 weeks, and there was 70% support.
So there seem to be plenty of people - tens of millions - that think they have non-religious reasons to support abortion restrictions.
I think there are secular arguments against abortion. But I was responding specifically to someone who said he was against abortion because it was against his religion.
No, you were responding to a post that was making the point that laws against murder often had religious justifications for them. Your response was, in fact, to suggest that you were fine with such laws because people had non-religious reasons for them.
If people have non-religious reasons for anti-abortion laws, will you be fine with those, too?
If the only reason for legislating against murder were religious, then yes. But as it happens, there are plenty of secular reasons for legislating against murder too.
You really do have the mind of a child...a rather slow one at that. If we as a society have already agreed that murder is sufficiently wrong that it ought to be prohibited by the state, it doesn't matter how each of us individually arrived at that conclusion when it comes to applying that principle. Seamus isn't inventing a new category of moral wrong. He's just citing the source is of his agreement with what we all (well, most of us...sociopaths excluded) already agree on: Murder bad.
Lol. Imagine you pretending to care about "innocent life."
I once said QI shouldn't be given to a cop who shot a child while trying to shoot a non-threatening dog. Your response? "Need a tissue." Or due process is "a bullet in the head." Oh and you've never, not once, managed to dispute that your preferred jurisprudence would allow kids to be executed for non-homicide crimes after kangaroo court proceedings. And let's not forget you are perfectly happy to use state violence to deport children to dangerous locations where they can die.
The fact that you DARE present yourself as a moral person defending the innocent is utterly disgusting.
The "Need a tissue." is my finest hour. It makes you SO MAD after all this time.
Yes. It does. You are PROUD of mocking empathy for a child gun shot victim. Proud of that. Of course it makes me mad. It should make ANY normal person mad. It’s an outrageous thing to do. It’s appalling. And doubly disgusting for an attorney.
Do me a favor: tell the people close to you how funny you think it is that people care about gunshot victims. Tell your rabbi. You think he’s going to agree with you? Laugh with you? No. They’re going to say you’re a monster. As well they should.
If that was your finest hour I shudder to think what your worst hour would look like.
LTG confuses the internet with real life. Among the many, many things he is confused about admittedly.
A normal person would not be SO MAD ONLINE but there you go. Just an arrogant humorous moral scold.
The internet is real life bob. Those were your real thoughts that were in your brain in real life that you decided to share: that child victims of police violence is worthy of mockery. You can’t escape that. And you know it. Your attitudes here are your attitudes in real life. In real life you are likely as big of a monster as you are here, but people probably don’t tell you because they don’t want to deal with you that much do to your consistent awfulness.
And your own “insult” proves it! Calling me a “mora scold” demonstrates two things: 1) that you recognize I am a much more moral person than you are 2) that you recognize you need to be scolded for your moral transgressions.
*due
Bob, if someone showed up here and made a similarly insensitive joke about Holocaust victims, I doubt you would be so dismissive. And I sometimes wish you could spend a week as any of several different groups of people whose rights you simply do not care about.
There are people with wrong thoughts. Get used to it.
Yet those same male chauvinists deprive men of their bodily autonomy for years by allowing the draft. They also allow men to be on the hook for child support for 18 years. If this was truly a man vs woman issue, why would these laws still be in place? And why would there be so many women involved in the pro-life movement?
John Rohan, you really cannot figure out that a pro-life woman might try to force other women to conform to the lifestyle a pro-life woman chooses for herself? That is really a mystery to you?
Is it mysogyny? Or is it 'statists going to statist'? I mean, we're deprived of bodily autonomy daily by things like federal bans on controlled substances (and bans on possession of prescription drugs without a prescription), and actively influenced by the government on a host of other choices because they think they know better than we do.
I'm pro-choice, policy-wise, but I'm not going to ascribe invidious motives to the other side just because I disagree with them on policy.
What about an argument that the Second Amendment protects abortion at least in some cases? The *Heller v. DC* opinion argues that 2A protects not only the mere keeping and bearing of arms but also their use in self-defense. Can abortion be framed as a woman defending her body against a fetus?
Are you suggesting that a pregnant woman has the right to fire a shotgun into her womb?
Incidentally, do you know what the elements of a self-defense claim are?
Last time I looked:
Decline combat.
Be unable to retreat due to either the tactical situation or physical infirmity.
Be in fear of imminent harm or death.
Can abortion be framed as a woman defending her body against a fetus?
Maybe...if you can show that the fetus attacked her against her will rather than being brought into existence in her womb as a result of actions she herself took.
Most people in the US would agree that a woman could have an abortion to protect her life.
I think abortion could be framed as self-defense, in cases of rape only. I don't know that it's ultimately right but there's an argument for it. I don't think the second amendment comes into play though.
"'Gendered impact of abortion restrictions': The first argument is that by banning abortion without offsetting the burden to women in certain ways (e.g., without "providing material resources to support" mothers), states would impose X burden on women that they would never impose on men."
On what planet does the government not "provide material resources to support mothers"? What to they think court-ordered child support is? What about WIC? The Head of Household tax filing category? The list of public and private programs and resources is almost endless.
" If there were anything comparable that involved men I doubt we'd be having a serious conversation about it."
My instinct is somewhat the opposite, especially for people with so-called traditional beliefs. You can't deny that paternalism is a thing. Men held men to their word on harsh contracts, on the theory that they had made a choice and were responsible for the consequences, but paternalistically "protected" women from making similar commitments. Male judges imposed harsher prison sentences on men for similar crimes. One could imagine a traditionalist placing men seeking abortions in the moral same category as deadbeat dads.
BTW, I'm not in favor of abolishing abortion rights. Just saying this particular argument doesn't ring true for me.
That's becuse the "argument" is fully fact free, and simply an opinion.
I've wondered about the asymmetry of the option of aborting a pregnancy.
A woman may at her sole option terminate a pregnancy, however if she carries the pregnancy to term the father is generally obligated to pay to support the child for 18 years.
It seems that the potential father should have some say in the pregnancy.
In a traditional marriage that is the case, the wife and husband generally work these things out, but increasingly people do not participate in traditional marriages.
If the state claims authority to inject itself into the conception, delivery, and raising of a child, it should be done in a fair and logical manner that balances rights and responsibilities. (fantasy, I know)
But as such, the state should assume all sex is recreational, unless those intending to create a child register with the state, defining who is responsible for the two main tasks of raising the child; physical nurture and financial support. Absent this registration, a pregnant person has full rights to continue or terminate the pregnancy within the constraints of balancing the rights of the child as well as the pregnant person, but also bears the responsibility for fulfilling the two tasks.
This also 'solves' the whole marriage thing as to numbers and genders (real of assumed)
Funny how the man's obligations stem from the interests of the baby.
But the woman has no such obligation?
There's clearly a conflict between the competing interests of man, woman, fetus. It's not persuasive to just ignore two of them.
It's my understanding that - under current precedent - the wife just has to "notify" the husband of her abortion, not get his consent.
Am I mistaken.
And the fact that Roe leads to such misogynistic conclusions as to let men off the hook for child support (because she could have avoided the "problem" by aborting) is an argument for the sexism of Roe.
Yes. Casey struck down spousal notification laws.
Er, the "Yes" was to your question, "Am I mistaken?"
So it's worse than I thought - the husband doesn't even have the right to be *informed,* much less to block the abortion.
Right. Current law, as dictated by the Supreme Court, is extremely one-sided towards women. It is not something that would follow from any equal protection analysis.
Abortionists seem to have given zero serious thought to this for the last 50 years.
"Those policies also reflect invidious motivations, like stereotypes about women's "proper" role as mothers before all else."
Adoption has been a thing for years.
In fact, the traditional "invidious stereotype" was that *married* women should be mothers, not single women, who were encouraged to use the adoption option.
And I offer the hypothesis that IVF and rent-a-womb policies might reduce the demand for adoptions by otherwise-childless couples - "why should we adopt some baby when we could always have a baby created for us in the laboratory?"
Well, there IS the financial aspect.
After cancer surgery made me sterile, we considered the options; We *could* still have had a child via IVF and some painful biopsies on my part.
It was freaking expensive, which is why I have one child and two testes, instead of the other way around.
I'm certainly sorry to hear about the cancer and the overall situation.
Nah. The traditional option for unmarried mothers was to move elsewhere, have the baby, then tell everyone the kid was her sister's, while raising a child who thought her mother was her aunt. That kid was my mom's best friend in Minnesota, in the 1920s. My mom said it was commonplace.
My information is anecdotal - I knew someone who traced her "birth mother" (mother) and found that it had been the scenario I described.
The pregnant woman is already a "mother" regardless of any stereotypes.
Otherwise what is the "life of the mother" exception supposed to be about?
Good one.
Do these liberals know that there is a substantial minority of pro-life lawyers who want the S/C to rule that abortion itself violates equal protection? Opening the door to a 14A EP analysis seems short sighted.
It's a one-way ratchet.
Shorter article. "The arguements against abortion or so incredibly strong and persuasive that the only way I can argue for abortion is by avoiding them and instead debating a strawman."
Maybe try not admitting in your first paragraph that you are making up arguements for your opponents rather than addressing what they actually are saying.
I think another commentor in this post month was right. Abortion advocates have not had to defend their opinion in so long they don't know how to anymore.
First, Reason today has a scam artist advertiser who's crushing the CPU usage. Investigate your ads, please.
Second, invideous is an odd choice of words, as it suggests deliberate attempts to outrage, rather than servicing your already-outraged base from someone else's ??invideous?? actiojs and arguments decades ago.
Nevermind. By that standard, everything from cops-qua-highway robbers for speed traps and parking tickets to the ADA, rewarding law firms with 10k payouts every time someone finds a handrail too low must fall.
invidious: unfair or unjust
invideous: only communicated in text, audio, or still pictures
I also think some attention should be paid to the idea that the concept of gender is meaningless. If pregnancy is in no way associated specifically with women vis-a-vis men, if people identifying with either gender or none can get pregnant, then it follows that laws relating to gender cannot be gender-specific laws.
Indeed the basic premise behind the equal protection argument - the idea that pregnancy is somehow connected to femaleness or that pregnancy or abortion are activities that are somehow specific to women - would seem to reflect exactly the invidious animosity being attributed to the idea that motherhood is somehow specific to or associated with women.
The idea that abortion is in any way female-specific itself reflects a gender stereotype about gender roles. It is rooted in the invidious idea that gender has a relationship to biology.
Under what the left increasingly claims is a proper understanding of the Equal Protection Clause, claims that abortion treats women differently from men are themselves inimical to the Equal Protection Clause because they imply a profound and unconstitutional disrespect for, and invidious animosity towards, the gender identity and rights of pregnant trans men.
If this view is correct, then abortion laws are in no way gender specific, and the Equal Protection Claim collapses at the primia facia stage. If there is neither disparate treatment nor disparate impact in actual fact, if claims of disparaty are based on nothing but invidious gender sterotypes, there can be no inequality for the Equal Protection Clause to be concerned about.
Indeed, advocates of abortion have, out of concern for trans men, have increasingly dropped claims that abortion should be regarded as in any way a woman’s right and have been adopting gender-neutral language that it should be regarded as a person’s or human right.
Absent the existence of a classification, there is no equal protection issue. Abandoning the idea that abortion has anything to do specifically with women abandons the equal protection argument. “People,” undifferentiated, have no equal protection rights.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/abortion-rights-debate-women-gender-neutral-language/629863/
Ultimately, the only argument needed to justify the right to an abortion is found in the 13th Amendment's prohibition on involuntary servitude -- to force an unwilling woman to incubate an unwanted fetus certainly qualifies as involuntary servitude.
"Ultimately, the only argument needed to justify the right for a father to walk away from support for a child he did not intend to sire can be found in the 13th Amendment's prohibition on involuntary servitude -- to force an unwilling man to provide financial resources to an unwanted child for 18 years certainly qualifies as involuntary servitude."
Involuntary servitude only applies when you did not voluntarily take an action. Unless you want to argue abortion should only be allowed in the case of rape, which I highly doubt you do, your arguement falls apart because an action was taken which everyone knows can lead to a second person being hosted in your body through no action of their own. As the person who holds sole responsibility for creating a
a life or death situation involving two people. You can't murder the other person, as you are the only person who has initiated force.
It's not totally implausible, maybe slightly more plausible now that some women do in fact offer it as a service for pay.
I consider it obvious involuntary servitude to conscript someone, send them to some hellish place, with survival stats considerably worse than pregnancy.
On the other hand, if someone signs up voluntarily, and then wants to back out? Less clear. There probably still ought to be a way to get out of it but I'm OK with it not being easy or free of all consequences.
The equality arguments summarized by Professor Reva Siegel and Professor Neil Siegel (and here by just RS) recognize a "bona fide interest in protecting potential life."
And this sentence alone is sufficient to deduce that we are dealing with sophistry-mongers and scoundrels. It's not potential life, it's actual currently alive life. This is not even arguable.
The question is, or at least may be, whether at this stage of its development this actual current human life is valuable enough to provide a bona fide interest to the government. But if you start of by describing an actual living creature as "potential life" we can see straight away that you are a scoundrel.
The costs of pregnancy cannot be trivialized.
No indeed. But likewise they should not be wildly exaggerated. Thus, of the roughly 8 billion people currently alive on the planet, roughly 8 billion of them are here because a woman bore exactly these costs. So while the burden may be heavy, it is not extraordinary. It is very ordinary.
Further, if it were possible, a very large number of men would rather spend 9 months being pregnant than, say, spend 9 months working on a garbage truck. It is true that you get paid for working on a garbage truck, but that just puts a monetary value on the inconvenience. And since we have arrived at monetary value, pregnancy if it resuts in an actual howling infant is likely to impose costs on the father well in excess of a year's garbage truck pay.
Nor is pregnancy anything like as dangerous as being conscripted and sent to war. Even when pregnancy was way more dangerous than it is now (thanks docs) , military service was more so.
And last but not least, a very large proportion of pregnant women, and also a very large proportion of those pregnant women who would like to get an abortion, are pregnant through their own free choice. They threw the dice in the same crap shoot as did Mr Child Support.
So yes let's not trivialise the cost, but let's not pretend it is akin to being crucified.
Murder is ok if I'm paid $1M.
You can't expect me to give up a million dollars, can you?
So if the laws are re-written to say something like, “No person may have an abortion after 15 weeks of pregnancy,” that law would treat women and men equally, right?
Quite a stretch by these EP abortion advocates, of course.
It would be far more plausible to argue that the fetus (especially late stage) is a person for EP purposes and is being denied equal protection.
"states would impose X burden on women that they would never impose on men."
Also very transphobic of course, ignoring the fact that men give birth and have uteruses too.
The Fourteenth Amendment does not define personhood as arising at the moment of birth; it defines citizenship in terms of born persons and protects the privileges and immunities of those citizens. In contrast, the legal protections of the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses are not restricted only to born citizens, but rather apply to "any person."
"Fetal life," as Prof. Bray references, is undeniably human life; not merely potential life upon birth. It is living; not merely viable. It is not a citizen yet, but nothing in the Constitution suggests that it is not a person deserving of equal protection and due process.
But since the 14th Amendment’s “person” excludes well over 90% of the world’s adult human population - all aliens outside US territory aren’t included in the term - it’s not exactly surprising, nor inconsistent, that fetuses aren’t included either.
commienot
May.19.2022 at 11:59 am
"It is living; not merely viable. It is not a citizen yet, but nothing in the Constitution suggests that it is not a person deserving of equal protection and due process."
I agree with your analysis with the exception of the last statement - See 14A
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Unfortunately, the abortion advocates frequently use 14 A as a basis to justify killing the innocent.
Is this an equal protection argument?:
In the absence of consensus about legal personhood for a 1st trimester fetus, the determination whether a 1st trimester fetus is a person with rights the law protects is a choice reserved to each person to make for herself.
If it is not an equal protection argument, why not?
We do not have "weighty reasons to tolerate conscription". Conscription is literally prohibited by the 13th Amdt. (although it's possible the Supreme Court would find a way to deny that), which allows for involuntary servitude only for those who have been convicted of a crime.
But, constitution aside, it is an unwise, unnecessary and unethical wealth transfer from those to are conscripted to those who are not - and who presumably expect to benefit from victory. If the victory is worth winning, then those who benefit ought to be able to pay enough to get a sufficient number of volunteers - and note that volunteers are likely to be cheaper if the country itself is at risk, but more expensive if the cause is seen as dubious. Conversely, if it is not worth paying enough to get enough volunteers, then - practically by definition - the country has established that the war is not worth fighting. Fundamentally, this is no different from, say, growing the crops the nation needs: we pay our farmers; we don't enslave them (anymore).
And I haven't yet begun to talk about the impact on military effectiveness, of relying on recruits pressed into a cause they may not believe in. Nor on the fact that militaries are much more careful with the lives of volunteers, who are not so easy to replace "for free" - especially if you are careless with their lives.
So, in fact, we have some very weighty reasons to prohibit, not tolerate conscription.
Off topic, I know. But no fly-by endorsements of conscription, please.
I thought that, as I was flying by, I would take the opportunity to criticise your economics. Conscription has generally been used in modern times only for large scale wars requiring lots of troops. (In ancient times, of course, military duty was often coextensive with citizenship - the idea of being a citizen who might not feel like fighting to defend the polity was ridiculous*.)
In such modern wars, the government is already taxing as much as it can tax to finance bullets, bombs, ships etc. And going heavily into debt as well. Taxes are not raised simply by passing a Bill in the legislature, or by issuing a proclamation if you're that kind of country. They also have to be collected. And the collection of money taxes becomes harder the higher you set them.
So you should think of conscription as a tax. (You just know the Chief Justice would be able to produce a very neatly worded opinion explaining why this is so.) It is a tax collected from young men, in the form of their labor. And it's quite an efficient tax. It's hard to avoid - you have to emigrate to avoid it, leaving all your property and family behind, and you have to do that in time of war. And if you just sit at home on your farm and say "shan't" then the government puts you in jail, or in a chain gang, or sends you to the front anyway and puts you in one of those suicide battalions to absorb enemy fire while the real soldiers look for an opening. Or the government just shoots you straight away, if you're in that sort of country. So it's a tax which is both easy to collect, and one carrying quite effective enforcement mechanisms.
And instead of the frictional costs of collecting money and then having to use that money to bid for labor, you just collect the tax directly in the form of the labor itself. And you get to do this when your capacity to exact taxes in money is already at bursting point.
* and so, coming full circle, we see that even in ancient times the military service demanded of citizens was really a Robertsian poll tax.
"Conscription is literally prohibited by the 13th Amdt. (although it's possible the Supreme Court would find a way to deny that), which allows for involuntary servitude only for those who have been convicted of a crime."
The Civil war was actually the first use of federal conscription as we know it today in the US, and at the time it was VERY controversial, a lot of people thought it was just not within the government's powers. There were court battles over it, and massive riots.
The arguments come in two varieties. A leading proponent of one variety, from whom I've learned (and to whom I owe) a great deal, is Professor Reva Siegel, who co-filed an amicus brief in Dobbs. She argues that we cannot explain prolife states' policies in terms of their professed concern for fetal life alone. Those policies also reflect invidious motivations, like stereotypes about women's "proper" role as mothers before all else.
Bullshit.
Here is a baby who is about to be killed. People who believe that baby is a human being, and entitled to the same protections all other human beings are entitled to, are entitled to make laws protecting that human being.
Pretending that's "sexism" marks the writer as a delusional buffoon
Weird once the baby is born, y'all stop caring so much.
Also weird how little y'all want to subsidize contraception to prevent this thing you hate so much.
But hey, if the result is that a women's sexuality suddenly carries a lot more burden than a man's, and if women are going to have a lot more trouble entering the workforce on their own terms, so be it!
Nice strawmen, Sarcy. Do you buy them wholesale?
You didn't even pretend to make a counterargument - but that's typical for you.
Who, exactly, is this "y'all" that "stop caring"? Why is it their responsibility to care in the first place?
Why is subsidized contraception the only way to prevent "this thing you hate so much"? Are there any other outcomes? Can these people you imagine, perhaps, not become pregnant even if they don't have subsidized contraception? Have these people in your head ever tried abstinence or purchasing their own birth control?
And then, how does not killing babies suddenly put a "lot more burden" on a "woman's sexuality" than a man's? Is a woman incapable of being sexual unless they get pregnant? Is a man unimplicated in any of the outcomes of a pregnancy that does not result in an abortion?
Oh, yeah - who are these people that you have found that explicitly desire the result of burdening a "woman's sucuality" and making sure women have "more trouble entering the workforce on their own terms"? (What are "their own terms", by the way? Is there some secret terms that all women want?)
"Weird once the baby is born, y'all stop caring so much."
And your proof for this claim is?
"Also weird how little y'all want to subsidize contraception to prevent this thing you hate so much."
I'm not the one having sex with you, it's not my job to pay for your contraception.
Any more than it's my job to buy you a pair of skates so you can play ice hockey.
You want to be treated like an adult? Then act like one. Which means take responsibility for your own actions.
"But hey, if the result is that a women's sexuality suddenly carries a lot more burden than a man's"
"Suddenly"? Gee, it's only been that way for the, what, 500 million years that two sexes have existed on the Earth?
You have an interesting definition of "suddenly".
It's easier to "get laid" as a female than a male of equal characteristics (looks / brains / income). The reason for that is because the female sex carries the initial burdens of sex. You win some, you lose some.
Oh, but that's right, the whole point of the Left wing agenda is to completely ignore reality while chanting in unison "I love Science!"
Other equal-protection arguments, including Professor Jack Balkin's, focus less on motivation than on impact. They suggest that prolife states impose burdens on women they wouldn't tolerate on men. Either way, the idea is that abortion bans—viewed together with prolife states' other policies—reflect or impose sexist double standards.
The current status is that if a man and woman have sex and create a pregnancy, if the woman doesn't want the baby, she can abort him or her.
If the man doesn't want the baby, it doesn't matter. He's on the hook for 18 years of child support.
Now THAT is a sexist double standard.
So, once again, argument is total trash
If a
Yeah, the one with the womb gets a bit more say than the guy who just did the sexy bits.
If a man gets to tell a woman she must stay pregnant against her will, do you see some misaligned responsibility and authority there? Like, something that mirrors a lot of societies where women were more baby-makers than fellow humans?
Oh, so the woman gets do decide if she gets an abortion or not? Fine. But if the man offers to pay for an abortion, and the woman decides to keep the child anyway, why is he responsible?
Don't you see some misaligned responsibility and authority there?
"Yeah, the one with the womb gets a bit more say than the guy who just did the sexy bits. "
Why?
Why does she get to stick a man with 18 years of child support, but he can't stick her with 9 months of baby support?
Why can't the man say "I don't want the kid. I had 1/2 the sex, I'll pay for 1/2 the abortion. Otherwise you and the kid are on your own"?
Why is that 9 months of involuntary "servitude" unconscionable, but 18 years of servitude perfectly fine?
reducing abortion rates by providing "appropriate and effective sex education"
One would have to first prove that such "appropriate and effective sex education" actually exists.
Because it doesn't
What are you talking about? Seems like there's plenty you can pretty easily teach about how sex works.
But more importantly, lots and lots of studies show comprehensive sex education reduces teen pregnancies.
Really?
Name the best one, one that if I show it to be BS, you'll agree that it doesn't in fact work.
It being 10 days later with no such example provided, I'm no longer checking
Well you openly admitted to looking a child porn because of Hunter Biden, so we all know that you don't care about victimizing children.
I'd just point out that according to faculty surveys, history is THE most partisan discipline, with the possible exception of gender studies. Which goes a long way towards explaining how Arming America won the Bancroft award after people had identified serious problems with it.
So it should hardly be shocking when historians agree with Democrats, it's just Democrats agreeing with themselves.
So, don't tell me what historians think, tell me about the evidence they can produce.
mad_kalak, there are great historians, good historians, and bad historians. You can tell them apart by the way they do their work and argue their narratives. The great historians are the only ones you ought to rely on (Edmund Morgan; C. Vann Woodward, for instance). The hallmark of their work is that they do not tell you what to think. Instead, they collate survivals from the past (from the historical record maximally construed, to include every kind of evidence which actually descends from the past). They make those survivals critique each other. That method has the virtue to exclude present-minded analysis, which is the bane of the merely good historians—and incidentally, the bane also of essentially every historical layman who supposes historical insight (Scalia, for instance). The bad historians just make stuff up, typically picking and choosing historical bits consciously, to steer some modern debate to a preferred conclusion (Kopel, for instance).
You finish reading a work by a great historian with a conviction that you know what happened, because that is all they have been telling you about, without reference to anything else. Such a work is typically equivocal on almost any point of modern debate. That you can count on, for reasons that can be explained, but not briefly explained. I will not try to do it now.
DUDE. LET. IT. GO. I’ve demonstrated over and over again that you know NOTHING about the historical profession besides the Bellesilles scandal TWENTY YEARS AGO. I’ve also demonstrated, over and over, the history profession has grappled with that immensely. Yet you consistently ignore that.
“ So, don't tell me what historians think, tell me about the evidence they can produce.”
THEY DO. In their books and in their articles and public talks! You ignore it because you’re the most arrogant person I’ve ever seen and you think they’re just “Democrats”
Just for once, please, admit you have ZERO idea what you’re talking about when it comes to the profession. I mean the arrogance you have is unfathomable.
You victimized her! You looked at child porn! Every viewing is a revicitmization. You’ve done more to hurt a child than the vast majority of people. You should be in federal prison.
I understand the difference between actively killing versus allowing to die, but I'm not sure it makes any real difference here. For one thing, parents who allowed their newborn to starve to death would be charged with murder and it would be no defense that they merely allowed it to happen. See Commonwealth v. Robidoux, 877 NE2d 232 (Mass. 2007).
I'm also not convinced that if the technology existed (probably at a cost of six figures per fetus) to remove a fetus from a woman and keep it on a machine until it became viable and could live on its own, that that solution would satisfy either the pro-life or the pro-choice side. Because to a certain extent, this is a dispute about control. I think that not all pro-lifers, but a significant contingent within the pro-life movement, do want to control women.
And ultimately, those who see it as a women's autonomy issue think that trumps any considerations for the fetus. And those who see it as protecting innocent life ultimately have to not care about the impact it has on women.
Personally, there is a stronger arguement for financial abortions than real ones, because you don't have to kill anyone to perform a financial abortion and thanks to safe harbor laws, we have a quite literal example of women already having a right be denied to men.
But this is just my opinion as sometime who already has the right to take advantage of single parent adoption and safe harbor laws.
Krychek_2
May.19.2022 at 12:18 pm
" I think that not all pro-lifers, but a significant contingent within the pro-life movement, do want to control women"
That contingent that wants to control women, if it actually exists is extremely small -
Its one of the many bogus talking points by the pro abortion advocates, along with other bogus talking points such as "womens health care. "
You're aware, aren't you, that the percentage of pro-live vs pro-choice is almost identical between men and women, right? So I don't see how a significant contingent within the pro-life movement could be so motivated.
I think that not all pro-lifers, but a significant contingent within the pro-life movement, do want to control women.
Well, that's what happens when your perceptions about reality are formed by your consumption of scripted TV fiction.
Yes, I know there are women in the pro-life movement. There are also gays and transgendered people who vote Republican, though I have no idea why.
Bellmore, could it be that there are also notable percentages of women among pro-lifers who want to control women, especially women who live their lives differently than pro-life women choose to do? Yes! That could be!
And not only that, but anyone who has known pro-life women, and lived in communities where pro-life views are the norm, knows that is exactly what to expect from a great many (not all) pro-life women. I am not sure whether that taste for control is misogyny when practiced by women, but I am sure it is always an illegitimate impulse to control someone else.
Yes, I know there are women in the pro-life movement. There are also gays and transgendered people who vote Republican, though I have no idea why.
The things you have no understanding of are legion. Dumbass...he didn't say simply that "there are women in the pro-file movement". He said that the number of people who identify as "pro-life" is roughly split evenly between men and women. (Not only that, something like 43% of all women identify as "pro-life", depending on which polls you use). Do you really not understand the difference between the two? Are you under the impression that anything like 40% of gay/trans people vote R? Or that roughly half of all those who vote R are gay/trans?
You seem to be pretty defensive of the general concept of “historians” that disagree with Alito, but you’re awfully hesitant to name them. If great men and women of scholarship have resoundingly rebutted Alito’s historical analysis, surely you can point to them.