The Volokh Conspiracy
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Does the First Amendment Bar Public Schools from Removing Library Books Based on Their Viewpoints?
The Supreme Court split on this 4-4 in 1982, and the matter remains unsettled.
The question came before the Court in Bd. of Ed. v. Pico, and four Justices (led by Justice Brennan) took the view that "local school boards may not remove books from school library shelves simply because they dislike the ideas contained in those books." Four other Justices (led by Chief Justice Burger) expressly rejected this view (except in the narrow situation where the disagreement was based on pure partisanship, for instance if a Democrat-run board removed books because they were written by Republicans or because they praised Republicans). And the swing vote, Justice White, expressly refused to opine on this issue:
The plurality … issue[s] a dissertation on the extent to which the First Amendment limits the discretion of the school board to remove books from the school library. I see no necessity for doing so at this point….
[This case] poses difficult First Amendment issues in a largely uncharted field. We should not decide constitutional questions until it is necessary to do so, or at least until there is better reason to address them than are evident here.
Justice White concurred with Justice Brennan's opinion solely as to the propriety of remanding for a trial on whether the school board removed the books based on viewpoint or instead based on their being "in essence, vulgar" (which even the challengers "implicitly conceded" would be a permissible basis for removing the books, at least if they "were pervasively vulgar"). But he disagreed with Justice Brennan on the consequence of any such finding:
- Justice Brennan's view was that, if there was a finding that the removals were based on viewpoint, that would mean the removals violated the First Amendment.
- Justice White's view as that, if there was such a finding, "there will be time enough to address the First Amendment issues that may then be presented" (which echoes his conclusion that he saw "no necessity for" resolving those questions in his opinion).
What about lower courts? Two federal appellate courts have characterized the Brennan opinion as expressing the view of the Court, see Monteiro v. Tempe Union High School Dist. (9th Cir. 1998) and Turkish Coalition of Am., Inc. v. Bruininks (8th Cir. 2012).
But three other federal appellate courts have disagreed, and have recognized—I think correctly—that Pico didn't resolve the issue; e.g., Griswold v. Driscoll (1st Cir. 2010):
Pico's rule of decision, however, remains unclear; three members of the plurality recognized and emphasized a student's right to free enquiry in the library, but Justice Blackmun disclaimed any reliance on location and resorted to a more basic principle that a state may not discriminate among ideas for partisan or political reasons, and Justice White concurred in the judgment without announcing any position on the substantive First Amendment claim.
Likewise with Muir v. Alabama Ed. Television Comm'n (5th Cir. 1982), which concluded that in Pico "the Supreme Court decided neither the extent nor, indeed, the existence [or nonexistence], of First Amendment implications in a school book removal case," because "[t]he Fifth Member of the Court [Justice White] voting for the judgment expresses no opinion on the First Amendment issues." And likewise with ACLU of Florida v. Miami-Dade County School Bd. (11th Cir. 2009), which noted that the view that "school officials may not remove books from library shelves 'simply because they dislike the ideas contained in those books and seek by their removal to prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion'" was "the standard that failed to attract a majority in the Pico case."
The matter, then, is not clear. Lower courts may indeed themselves decide that viewpoint-based removals of books from school libraries violate the First Amendment, and they may find Justice Brennan's opinion to be persuasive. And schools may reasonably worry that this might happen, and might conclude that it's better to avoid that litigation. (Prof. Justin Driver so suggests, in Tony Mauro's recent Freedom Forum column.) But courts and schools may instead conclude otherwise, and be more persuaded by Chief Justice Burger's dissent.
Note, by the way, that this is all just about public school library books. Decisions to remove books or topics from public school curricula wouldn't be precluded even under Justice Brennan's opinion; that opinion noted that "Respondents do not seek in this Court to impose limitations upon their school Board's discretion to prescribe the curricula of the Island Trees schools," and added (in a part that got three votes),
We are … in full agreement with [the school board] that local school boards must be permitted "to establish and apply their curriculum in such a way as to transmit community values," and that "there is a legitimate and substantial community interest in promoting respect for authority and traditional values be they social, moral, or political." …
Petitioners might well defend their claim of absolute discretion in matters of curriculum by reliance upon their duty to inculcate community values.
And the dissenting four Justices were even more firm on this point about school board control over the curriculum. (The question whether the Establishment Clause limits school authority over including religious topics or excluding topics that are perceived as antireligious is a separate matter; I'm speaking here of non-religion-related curriculum choices.)
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No, these are easy questions. Penthouse magazine was not in my school library nor should of it had been.
So if a library wound up with a book that advocated for racial genocide, the board couldn't remove it? Idiocy.
People throw the idea of "book bans!" around incessantly, even when it doesn't remotely describe actual banning of books.
I dunno; I think if we want to keep our kids from being exposed to a book with bad ideas, the best place to put it is in a school library.
William F. Buckley famously opined he was against sex education in public school because public schools had taken intrinsically interesting subjects like math and poetry and made students hate them. He reasoned it would be a disaster if the same thing happened to sex.
Seems like he's been vindicated.
That might be good as a matter of policy, but are you seriously suggesting that there's a constitutional right to have books in public school libraries that advocate racial genocide?
Activist: "Yeah! You can't remove a book just because you disagree with it!"
"So the 'problematic' Dr. Seuss books have to stay?"
Activist: "What? No! I didn't mean that! I didn't mean that! I meant you can't remove my stuff like the Communist Manifesto!"
"Books I dislike should be banned. Books I like, but most people find abhorrent, should be taught to their kids."
("liberal" / "progressive" position in a nutshell)
Why not just make up things you think the other side would say? Sure saves dealing with reality!
What? The Seuss books didn’t disappear because they were offensive to the progressives? Where’s the made up part.?
Seuss did that. No one is saying remove them from libraries.
Yup, no one.
"Local libraries begin removal of controversial Dr. Seuss books
by: WAVY Web Staff
Posted: Mar 2, 2021 / 07:35 PM EST
Updated: Mar 2, 2021 / 07:35 PM EST"
"Chicago Public Library removing 6 Dr. Seuss books from the shelves while it determines long-term options
By Jessica Villagomez
Chicago Tribune
Mar 08, 2021 at 5:37 pm"
And so we're once again facing that ages-old question: Is Sarcastr0's head really that far up his own ass, or is he just as full of shit on this as he is everything else?
He must think this is a pre-google age, that he can assert facts and think no one will check.
I still recall an incident from the WaPo-hosted days when he made some stupid comment in response to a certain post, and then claimed everyone got it wrong because he was responding to a different comment...one which hadn't even been posted until several minutes after his response...because he apparently assumed everyone was too stupid to read a timestamp.
Could both of you just talk to the comments and not be weird about it?
OK, I stand corrected. Though from your disparate examples, it sure looks like 'disappear because they were offensive to the progressives' is overstating things by a lot.
No, no, you don't understand. It's OK when librarians, who are trained professionals and can be trusted to know what they're doing, remove offensive books from school libraries. But when school boards, who are merely laymen elected by the citizens to implement policy, try to do the same it's a violation of the constitution.
Neato strawman. I think some folks below say that, but I'm not saying that.
Are you trying to claim that's NOT the reality?
That they same people who are screaming about a school district not using Mous, are the ones pushing to get rid of Huck Finn, Tom Sawyer, and To Kill a Mockingbird?
Do tell us, what's teh difference between removing Mous from the curriculum, and removing books written by "dead white males"?
How many people are trying to get rid of Huck Finn, really?
And adding books by non white males is not the same as getting rid of white male-authored books. Diversifying the canon is not a zero sum game.
"US school stops teaching Huckleberry Finn because of 'use of the N-word'" Guardian Mon 14 Dec 2015 07.46 EST
"2021
After parent complaints about the use of racist epithets in To Kill a Mockingbird; Adventures of Huckleberry Finn; The Cay; Of Mice and Men; and Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry, the Burbank (CA) Unified School District superintendent issued a statement removing the books from the district’s required reading lists for its English curriculum and banned the use of the N-word in all school classes. The books will be allowed in classroom libraries, but no student can be required to read them. At a board meeting, the superintendent stated, “This is not about censorship, this is about righting the wrongs of the past.”
And adding books by non white males is not the same as getting rid of white male-authored books. Diversifying the canon is not a zero sum game.
Bullshit
There is only so much time, and only so many books that can be taught in any given class. There's only so much shelf space in the library, and only so much budget for obtaining new books. Any time you're bringing a new one in, you're tossing a previously used one out.
"Diversifying the canon" is a political agenda, just like every other political agenda. The fact that it's your political agenda doesn't make it any better than the rest
No, it's not zero sum, anymore than choosing Hemmingway over Steinbeck is a crazy dig on Steinbeck.
For your logic to work, there cannot be any worthy black or woman authors.
Your persecution complex is making you look pretty bigoted.
"For your logic to work, there cannot be any worthy black or woman authors. "
No
For my logic to work, anyone who says "we must get rid of this author, because he's a white male, and replace him with this author, who's a black female" is a racist pig and a worthless pile of sh!t.
And that is indeed the case.
The ideological project of "diversifying the canon" is a racist and sexist project that's entirely political.
Your bigotry is making you look pretty stupid, Sarcastr0
I never said "all black female writers suck."
I said "anyone who chooses a writer BECAUSE she's female is a sexist. Anyone who chooses a writer BECAUSE she's black is a racist.
"Diversifying the canon" is about choosing writers BECAUSE of their sex or skin color, rather than because of their quality.
If you don't want to read Shakespeare because he's a white male, you are a racist and a sexist.
And I can't see any reason why any educational system should pander to such racists and sexists
"Why not just make up things you think the other side would say? Sure saves dealing with reality!"
You mean like claiming that Chris Rufo proudly tweeted how he's a liar?
Every librarian, I believe, and I am such, would regard as absurd the notion that the content and viewpoint (and how could you distinguish those?) of books should be ignored when selecting them for acquisition or withdrawal (and why stress the latter, when the former is at least as important?). Almost as absurd is the artificial distinction between books in the library and books in the curriculum -- probably every school library's mission statement has as point no. 1 'to support the curriculum.' Some librarians regard it as a professional duty to strive for some kind of balance in the collection, others do not, and none have the budget or space or time to carry such an effort out systematically.
A First Amendment limitation on book selection seems unworkable in practice. Libraries have finite space and finite budget and routinely remove books. To the student it does not matter if the book was never bought at all, was withdrawn in the normal course of operations, was withdrawn for being crap, or was withdrawn because a parent condemned it for being politically incorrect.
@PFS
Agree. People seem to have this notion that a library can properly use discretion (including as to age-appropriateness, viewpoint and overall quality) when acquiring books, but that once acquired, a book somehow becomes sticky and non-removable except on some content-neutral standard. That makes no sense.
I don't see anyone saying that. Decisions to bring a book into the library should be held to the same standards as decisions to take a book out of the library.
Viewpoint-neutral measures (like reading level, age-appropriateness of the content, desirability by expected readers) are valid reasons that apply at both points in the book's lifecycle and are non-controversial. Strictly viewpoint-based measures are what is in controversy.
I don't see how you can make acquisition decisions that factor in things like quality and age-appropriateness and not take content and viewpoint analysis into account. Content/viewpoint is probably the most important factor in the analysis.
It is not like a library has an unlimited budget. Generally, they must judiciously pick and choose what books to acquire. To do that well requires judgment, sense and taste. The First Amendment is really tangential to the whole issue.
The argument should not be whether "book banning" decisions contravene the 1st Amdt, but rather whether they are wise and beneficial. 98 times out of 100, I'd say they are not, but these are discussions that should be had on the merits of the books in question, not abstract 1st Amdt principles.
I'm genuinely curious - how many pupils use school libraries any more?
Most of the ones destined to avoid foolishness in adulthood. So a notable minority, to be sure.
An informal survey of one high school student determined she had not checked out a physical book from her school library in a long time but was thinking about doing so.
Lots.
I don’t see how a school board could do otherwise. Otherwise, once the library fills up it could never buy new books.
For example, suppose a school board wants ro buy the second edition of a book because it thinks it better than the first edition. Since thinking A is better than B is always equivalent to thinking B is worse than A, liking the second edition more is equivalent to disliking the first edition more. If dislike is an invalid reason for removing a book. Replacing the first edition with the second would be unconstitutional.
Whenever we choose based on comparisons, we necessarily like A better than B, which means we dislike B more than A. Selecting A necessarily means rejecting B. So if rejecting based on dislike is unconstitutuonal, we can never select anything because we can never reject anything.
Unless it is legal to discard existing books, we can never get new ones. And it would be dishonest not to admit that everytime we buy new replacement books, every single time, rejecting the old ones because we dislike their ideas is precisely what we are doing.
ReaderY, professional collection management is a thing, and it works differently than you describe.
QA, Stephen - are you making a factual claim that old books are never removed to make room for new ones?
My personal book collection has books bought at library sales. Sales the library held with the openly stated purpose of getting rid of old books. Specifically to make room for new acquisitions. I'd bet lots of commenters here have the same experience. And all of us can walk up to a librarian and ask if it ever happens.
Your reflexive gainsaying here was particularly bad.
ducksalad — The process that enabled your purchases was collection management. There was no gainsaying. Collection management does not work as you apparently think, nor as ReaderY described.
People encounter stuff all the time, and get at firsthand random insights they misunderstand. Some folks are cautious that might happen, others just assume whatever they experienced provided a complete picture.
Stephen, you seem to think that renaming things using more elevated language changes their nature.
ReaderY's explicit claim was that first editions are sometimes removed and replaced with the second edition. Are you seriously saying that does not happen?
I'll stipulate though, if it makes you happy, that books are removed solely based on usage records. (Stipulate, not believe, mind you.) There remains the issue that some new books are purchased and others are not. Elsewhere in this thread you openly conceded that content and viewpoint are part of that selection, so it's kind of silly to claim otherwise now.
So can we get to the real argument, which is who decides.
Just because professionals are thinking the applicable ideas doesn’t make them content neutral. Nor does the fact that professionals don’t recognize that they are making content-based and idea-based choices when they make decisions.
Indeed, the idea professionals sometimes have that not only do they have no interests and biases, but the constitution priveleges their way of seeing things over others because only others have beliefs and biases, they just do things straight and neutral, is one of the reasons for the anti-elite backlash.
There’s some basis for it. Folks like Queen almathea might be Exhibit A for it.
Let’s take an example. I give an elementary school a large collection of books written in, say Ugaritic. It puts them in the sale or gives them to another library. Unconstitutional? The idea that Ugaritic is a more suitable language for an American elementary school readership than English is an idea. Just like any other idea. Dislike of that idea is dislike of an idea just like dislike of any other idea. If the library can’t reject books because it dislikes ideas, it has to display the Ugaritic books.
Just because an idea may seem so obvious to you that you don’t notice it’s an ifea doesn’t mean it’s not an idea. The elite’s beliefs, assumptions, and biases don’t get any exception.
Note: there will be school districts where, for example, a large Spanish-speaking population demans Spanish books against an English-first administration’s views creates a conflict that results in everybody noticing that what languages suitable books should be in represents an idea. When that happens, the fact that an idea is involved becomes visible. But it remains an idea for Constitutional purposes even when invisible, for languages where there is no constituency, and the administration’s decision that it’s not suitable content is uncontested.
What is and isn’t an idea doesn’t depend on whether it’s absolutely obvious to everyone, unquestionably wrong to everyone, seems right to some and wrong to others, or if nobody’s heard of it. It’s still an idea regardless.
That is, there are situations when the “content neutral” bases of professionals’ decisions conflict with the wishes of constitutents, when the professionals’ claim that their criteria are strictly objective and content-neutral becomes highly disputed, when the fact that they are highly disputable (and not in fact objective and content-neutral) becomes obvious, at least to people other than the professionals.
But the claim that the criteria are objective and content-neutral remains bogus even when there isn’t anybody to dispute it. What is objective requires a truly objective standard to assess. And those are very hard to come by.
Why aren't the government's own libraries just an instance of government 'speech'? I don't see the problem with a school board deciding they don't want a book to be in their own library.
Now, if they made some effort to keep the students from having access to particular books OUTSIDE the classroom, that would be bad.
Are we pretending that school libraries have some kind of monopoly?
Because schools are not supposed to be indoctrination camps for either party?
Well, that's just ahistorical; We wouldn't even HAVE public schools if they weren't supposed to be indoctrination camps. Compulsory public education came to America in imitation of the Prussian system of education, it was explicitly for the purpose of indoctrinating children to be good citizens.
The problem is that they've become indoctrination camps for one particular party, even when that party is out of power, and in places where it's the minority, because they captured the schools of education.
But they've always been about indoctrination, from the very beginning.
Notably, nothing in the OP appears to take notice of the way a professional school librarian would approach the question. The school librarian typically does not think mainly in terms of managing books individually—although that at times becomes a factor to meet topical needs. But the more-principled part of the management task is to develop a collection. Which is to say a body of materials to support debates about topics of scholarly interest, pitched appropriately to the intended audience. Plus, also, in schools, to provide a range-across-interests of especially inviting offerings to encourage students to read, and thus advance their literacy.
It ought to be obvious that it is bad practice for a school board not mindful of the collection policy to reach in and prune books politically, thus arbitrarily unbalancing the collection. If the legal issue in fact has long remained undecided, then I suggest a new legal principle in support of professional collection management as a default would make sense.
Your first paragraph concedes that the books are selected for content and viewpoint, by a government employee.
So you propose a "new legal principle", that in the case of a public library, the First Amendment requires "professional collection management".
It seems that you'd effectively be setting up librarians as independent of the control of the school board (and presumably the state legislature or Congress), in the same way judges are independent of the exective and legislative branches.
Now think of all the things we have to do to protect judicial independence - are you going to do it for librarians? Because you can imagine a school board cutting the librarians' pay, or simply firing them, for pulling or refusing to pull Dr. Seuss. How far are you willing to go? Librarians entitled to lifetime tenure and no pay cuts? Or maybe fixed 15 year terms?
It's not totally crazy, we do it some of that for professors. But not as a constitutional right, only as a policy. I'm not aware of any ruling that the First Amendment requires colleges to have a tenure system, and many don't.
"books are selected for content and viewpoint"
I for one fully support libraries refusing books that have no content.
Insisting on a viewpoint though might be a problem. Would that mean they couldn't have a dictionary?
Personally I find blank books somewhat satisfying. One can enjoy the feel of fine paper and the smell of the binding without the distractions of some idiot's ramblings.
Personally I find blank books somewhat satisfying. One can enjoy the feel of fine paper and the smell of the binding without the distractions of some idiot's ramblings.
Libri gratia librorum?
(I'm fairly sure that's not quite right. It's been a loooooong time since I took that one Latin class in high school.)
Pretty sure that is right. Liber is 2nd declension, and gratia takes the genitive in this usage.
I'm pretty sure that when a book has a passage that is considered so vulgar that the School Board won't let it be read out loud at a meeting, it should be removed from the School Library.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7eaE8xsvOQ&t=10812s
So a low level government employee [the librarian] has complete authority to select books and the school board or upper management has zero power to overrule her?
An absurd result that only a judge could agree with.
It seems we are missing the difference between private free speech and what the government chooses to pay for. We often make choices in what the state buys - look at the weird stuff California spends money on - and the obvious corollary is that the government can choose what to not spend money on, including books.
Not paying for a book is not at all the same as banning it. If a person can use his own cash to get the book, that book is not banned.
Are library collections curated? Yes?
Then, judgement since judgement is used to add to the collection, judgement can be used to remove from the collection. The collection should not, by constitutional dictate be a monotonically increasing number of titles.
Don't like the judgements of the choosers? Change the choosers. And don't give those choosers tenure or union protection.
Only lawyers and politicians can make this hard.
How does a library book get onto library shelves in the first place? It didn't just magically appear; some official(s) made a decision to put it there. I don't think the Constitution commands that once a book goes onto the shelf, it may never be taken off.
F.D. Wolf, one example of a fairly typical process would be that a library manager—likely someone with one or two masters degrees, including one in library science, plus extensive library experience—would create or update a collection management policy. That would be reviewed by a senior school administrator, and budgeted for annually. After that, books would be purchased and de-accessioned by the library manager, according to the collection management policy. The policy would get updated fairly frequently, but maybe not annually.
Typically, a library facility is full all the time, so not much gets added without something else being removed. Without agreed-upon policy on what meets ongoing users' needs, that process fairly quickly devolves into chaos. Random school board sniping at the collection promotes chaos.
I honestly almost mentioned this in my original post, but decided not to.
Where would an actual conflict most likely arise? Between your Master of Library Science, who will tend to be a (very) progressive political bent and a more conservative school board, elected and accountable to the people who actually pay for the library and the librarian's salary.
Now, one might debate who is better qualified to decide what books should or should not be on the shelves, but I don't believe it is a Constitutional question. I believe that the people through their elected representatives, who paid for the book in the first place, may choose to remove it.
Given the quality of our current 'experts' in their all forms as government employees, I am more contrarian in that if the MS LS is for it, I am against it. With a sister with a LS degree and working at a large state university, I at least have some basis for that, petty as may be.
F.D. Wolf — On what basis do you suppose a school board member's pique about a particular book represents a public assessment about the book's place in a curriculum? At lower administrative levels, decisions get pretty granular. I don't think at that administrative level the notion of, "accountable to the people," is a usable standard, except with respect to good accounting for funds. School boards are for policy, not for book purchase decisions already founded on information-gathering which tracks school needs in detail, and supervised by senior school administrators.
If school boards want to intervene politically in curriculum, the means to do it is not at the book-by-book level in the library. It is to entertain hearings about curriculum decisions, and the school-wide inputs which shape them.
At some point questions about what style of policy making advances wise decisions, and what kind hampers them, ought to get attention. If you allow censorship power to would-be book burners on a school board, you will shortly have school boards composed of nothing but book burners.
Imagine this scenario. Librarian looks over the library's holdings on the abortion debate and finds that there are 12 books on that topic, all of which defend a variation of the prochoice position. Because the library has limited space, the librarian can't just add 6 prolife books in order to make the holdings more ideologically diverse. She must replace some of the prochoice books. So, she removes 4 of the prochoice books and adds 4 prolife books. Clearly, the 4 books are removed because of their viewpoint. But isn't the library better as a consequence?
No one reads any of them.
QA and Stephen Lathrop are making the claim that your scenario doesn't happen. They're claiming books are removed based only on low circulation numbers or other objective factors, and any content/viewpoint balancing occurs strictly on the acquisition side.
Of course that just shifts the censorship argument to a different point, the decision not to buy.
ducksalad, I never said a thing about circulation numbers. This is the second time on this topic you assumed my priors and turned out dead wrong. Give it up.
And I was about to endorse Beckwith's challenge, and suppose it was one most professional library managers would recognize as a problem worth fixing. Beckwith erred only in assuming a management solution executed entirely within the abortion debate category. Some library managers might cut books from some other category, or cut out a less-used category, to add even 13 or more pro-life books.
People should be free to choose their own schools and shouldn’t have to support libraries hostile to their personal opinions with tax money taken from their wages.
Libraries are anachronistic and everyone involved with libraries seems to be infected with an extreme narcissism disorder that prevents them from being able to serve the public. So we are probably better off as a society with fewer libraries.
Everyone always has a computer in their hand with instant access to the world’s knowledge.
Well, yeah. Libraries were an adaptation to scarcity. A very good one! But adaptations to scarcity sometimes out live the scarcity itself.
I have fond memories of libraries. Of closing my eyes, picking a card at random from the card catalog, and reading that book. Brought me to some fascinating discoveries. Over the years I accumulated about 5K volumes in my own personal library, and believe me, I wept when they went to a used book dealer for pennies each on account of me being broke and having to move out of state, and the moving van being full, damn it.
Today I have a Kindle and a Nook, and haven't been inside a library in a couple of years, unless you count the remnant in my new home, a few hundred books, tops, that survived the move.
Hopefully Congress is mad enough at Disney to reform copyright so some of that artificial scarcity is curtailed and more of the knowledge locked in old books can be made available to the public.
I’ll take my iPad over books almost every time. Books are heavy.
If courts deny school boards the authority to remove books they don't like from school library shelves, that just means that authority is being left in the hands of school librarians, without any oversight by the elected representatives of the community.
The arguments being made remind me of the absurd, almost self-parodying argument once made to the Supreme Court in National Endowment of the Arts v. Finley that while ethics are purely a matter of personal opinion, aesthetics as declared by art experts are matters of objective fact. They argued that government taking into account the perceived moral value of an artwork in deciding whether to give an arts prize violates the First Amendment because it introduces matters of opinion, and then had the chutzpah to argue that taking into account the perceived aesthetic value of the artwork somehow doesn’t violate the First Amendment.
If it violates the First Amendment to take into account perceived moral value, surely it must also violate the First Amendment to take into account perceived aesthetic value.
The arguments being made above fare no better than the ones that the art people made in pretending that their opinions were somehow matters of objective, indisputable fact and not opinion.
And they have same sort of hee-high-hooey putting on of airs that the arts people had in Finley when they assured the public that as professionals, they too used only strictly objective, content-neutral, non-First-Amendment-related criteria in making their decisions. We ignorant barbarians just didn’t understand anything about how they made their decisions, either.
I would have argued that Finley didn’t have standing to sue. An analogy would be a Presbyterian minister suing on grounds it violates the Establishment clause to have a Methodist minister do legislative prayer because Methodism is an establishment of religion, and asking as relief that only Presbyterian ministers have this role. After all, from the Presbyterian minister’s point of view (just like the arts people’s and the librarians’) , Presbyterianism isn’t religious belief. It’s just the neutral, objective truth.
A court couldn’t give the requested relief in this case because kicking the Methodist minister out would necessarily also require kicking the Presbyterian minister out. The Presbyterian minister couldn’t obtain a favorable outcome from winning the case.
So the correct outcome would be to dismiss the case for lack of standing, and to wait for somebody not living in a glass house before deciding a stone-throwing case.
Bob Dylan won the Nobel Prize for Literature, too.
So should students be taught Dylan's song "She's No Good"?
https://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/bobdylan/shesnogood.html
But that's different because it's misogynistic!
Librarians remove books for wrongthink all the time. Back when I lived in Michigan, the rural library in the town nearest me had "Arming America", (And this was after it had been established to be a work of fiction.) but no books presenting the contrary view.
I donated a couple, they ended up in the next month's used book sale. Arming America continued to be on the shelf.
Now, this was in a very pro-gun rural part of Michigan, (The Democratic candidate for state Senator very nearly came in at 3rd place.) but the librarians did not share the local ideology, and did it ever show in their curation decisions.
re: "removing books [from school libraries] for ‘wrongthink’"
https://reason.com/2022/05/04/public-schools-will-always-be-political-battlegrounds/
closing paragraph:
I fully agree.
(And once all public schools are shut down, the remaining (private) schools will be free to curate their libraries however they want.)
I have to disagree. Libraries need discretion in deciding which books to keep, and they shouldn't have to ignore the content of the books when doing that task.
"Content neutral" means that you can't get rid of the math book that's riddled with errors, because those errors are content.
While you do have a First Amendment right to read a book, you don't have a First Amendment right to have the government provide the book for you in a library.
So "She's No Good" should be taught in class?
Have you read the lyrics?
And the woman in the ad simply wanted parents to be notified if sexually explicit content was to be used in their kids' classes.
No law would be needed to keep "She's No Good" out of class, because no teacher would dare present such misogynistic content, not if Dylan had a whole stack of Nobels.
Complain, you bet. Force them to reinstate Trump, never.
But I complain about lots of stuff that people sell me.
Facebook resembles a public forum a lot more than a school library does.
You're the one claiming it never happens, not me.
Notice that I didn't ask that Arming America be with drawn. (I did suggest that a note be put in the inside cover explaining that the award it claimed had been taken away might be in order.) I donated contrary books to advance the debate.
Because it's a debate I think my side can win, is winning, so long as the debate is free.
It was the librarians who were curating the collection to avoid that debate.
Is there any danger of teachers presenting that passage? Presented in isolation, it would certainly be sexually explicit, but again, I don't think the issue would arise because I can't see a teacher using any but the most "innocuous" parts of the Bible in class.
I've done a bit of research on this, and there was a movement to assign a textbook *summarizing* the Bible and praising it as a progressive book. If I recall correctly, specific Bible passages would be presented to accompany the textbook.
I recall that it translated Song of Solomon 1:5 as "I am black *and* beautiful."
They began as indoctrination centers, and have remained indoctrination centers. How could you expect schools run by the government to be anything BUT indoctrination centers?
They also educate, to some extent. But indoctrination remains a key component of their purpose, which is why you see so much ideological opposition to school choice on the left. What's the point in running indoctrination camps if people don't have to attend them?
Funny, I keep hearing how police departments in the United States are morally compromised by their origins as slave patrols.
"Jacksonian patronage advocates"
Yes, true.
You are dodging the question though. Who makes the final decision on content of school libraries, the librarian or management/elected board?
And modern progressives like Queenie believe that all the important questions about our public institutions should operate should be taken out of the hands of the people and their representatives and entrusted to an unelected clerisy.
The article you linked to suggests the book Beloved is appropriate to be assigned in class to schoolchildren because the author won the Nobel Prize. I answered the article's "logic" by showing that the author of a "misogynist" song also won the Nobel Prize, so logically the song should be used in class, too.
Again, this is the article you cited to prove some point or other.
The article was mad because the mom/activist wanted parents to be told if teachers were using sexually explicit material. Yes, parts of the Bible meet that description, especially if some trollish teacher wants to stick it to those fundy parents.
If one ia willing to define a “content neutral” reason as “a reason I disagree with,” you’d be right. But I’m not willing to do that.
Yes, sometimes physically damaged books are replaced with new books with the same content. But whenever one decides to replace a book with one that has different content, one is making a decision that is not content-neutral. It takes the content into account.
Actually, QA, I'm not the least bit shocked by kids reading sexually themed books, Marx, Calhoun, even Hitler. I peeked at all those things myself well before the age of 18 and I'm sure you did too. We came out OK.
What's bothering me is the gaslighting - the claim that there isn't content and viewpoint selection going on. I want people to acknowledge that it happens, and that this is purely an argument over who decides.
Today you're saying school boards shouldn't interfere with librarians. But I suspect that's only because you think the librarian is more likely to align with your preferences than the school board, and that you'd flip sides in 10 seconds if you thought the librarian was a prudish conservative.
Sorry, as a reason I agree with.
Lord knows I complain about Comcast and Verizon, yet still use them because the alternatives are less palatable (and isn't that a crushing indictment of the state of telecommunications?).
I recall, in English class, reading from the work of a Nobel-winter: William Faulkner. I am not sure it would pass muster today, because it portrays the white characters disenfranchising black voters.
So "I am not sure" is wallowing in victimhood?
Also, with all due respect to William Faulkner, I wouldn't consider myself a victim simply for not being assigned his work.
"censor Faulkner"
See below for the misleading "ban" headline in the article you linked to.
I said: "No law would be needed to keep "She's No Good" out of class, because no teacher would dare present such misogynistic content, not if Dylan had a whole stack of Nobels."
Why "ban" it if teachers wouldn't be particularly disposed to teach it in the first place? No, not even in some folk-music class.
You seem to think I support a *prohibition* against teachers teaching the song, when my actual words were that teachers wouldn't assign it.
In saying I'm wrong about this, at least you're (belatedly) responding to my actual argument, so there's that. But before getting to that point you engaged in what I call creative re-interpretation of my remarks, which weren't particularly vague.
I wouldn't mind at all if "liberal" parents wanted to be informed about potentially offensive content is being taught. Huckleberry Finn, or even "The Emperor Jones," by a Nobel prize winner. If it's good and worthy of being taught, let the parents in on the wonderfulness!
You cited the article with approval. I've shown the logic of the article is flawed.
Perhaps you have a better article with which to make your point?
And all this, because a mother simply wanted to be *informed* if sexually explicit content was being taught.
The article you linked to said the mother wanted books banned from schools.
Here is the legislative summary of the law she backed:
"Requires the Board of Education to establish a policy to require each public elementary or secondary school to (i) notify the parent of any student whose teacher reasonably expects to provide instructional material that includes sexually explicit content, as defined by the Board; (ii) permit the parent of any student to review instructional material that includes sexually explicit content upon request; and (iii) provide, as an alternative to instructional material and related academic activities that include sexually explicit content, nonexplicit instructional material and related academic activities to any student whose parent so requests."
https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?161+sum+HB516
The only way the bill would have banned anything from schools is if teachers get cold feet about telling parents about explicit sexual content in what they're teaching the children - and the parent's remedy would be to stop the explicit content from being taught to *her* children.
No ban, unless, as I said, teachers are uncomfortable telling parents they're going to teach sexually-explicit content and giving *individual parents* an opt-out alternative.
And if the bill passed, I can certainly see some trollish teacher sending parents a "warning" that they're going to teach The Bible As Literature despite the rape scenes and Onan passage.
"And this applies to efforts to *remove* ‘upsetting’ books from libraries"
The article is not about school libraries, it's about a mother who wanted parents to be informed if there was sexually explicit material in their kids' curriculum.
I suppose that hip, with-it, enlightened parents wouldn't mind, and the bill wouldn't have stopped *their* kids from being assigned the material.
I understand that you want to prove that "conservatives believe in safe spaces, too!" OK, then, this mother wanted to have some authority over the content of the curriculum she pays for and which is being taught to her kids.
Call it a safe space if you will, I call it parental authority over their children.
Yes, teachers at govt-run schools *should* feel a "chill" about assigning sexually explicit works they wouldn't want parents to know about. Feature and not bug.
"This work with sexually-explicit scenes is so unobjectionable that parents shouldn't be told about it!"
I see you mentioned that schools are staffed by your neighbors.
Why would a good neighbor conceal from you what kind of sexually explicit material he's showing your kids?
I don't "concede," I *proclaim* that this is wrong.
Teachers teaching sexually explicit material should be teaching *only* such material as they are comfortable disclosing to parents.
Or perhaps teachers should have a "safe space" where they can be free of pestering parents?
See, anyone can randomly throw around the term "safe space."
The bill you're criticizing lets teachers - after they've made the needed disclosures to parents - teach these materials to any parents who consent on behalf of their kids, or even to parents who fail to file a formal objection. It's the *objecting* parents who would get alternative assignments (perhaps a Toni Morrison novel which *doesn't* have incest in it? Or some other uncontroversial work by a Nobel Laureate, like The Emperor Jones?).
If anything, the bill doesn't go far enough. Instead of thinking how much curricular material they can conceal, teachers should be totally upfront about what they're teaching. This is really one of those situations where, if you've got nothing to hide and aren't trying to undermine parental authority, you have nothing to fear from full disclosure.
All this talk about dodging (when I'm not obliged to answer your questions) and about Mrs. Lovejoy, when the actual question is would I let teachers conceal this stuff from *every* parent.
Again, as I've mentioned before, if the kids parents haven't filed a formal objection, they can be taught the sexually explicit material. As for the objecting parents, the question isn't whether you or I personally believe them to be prudes, it's whether we acknowledge their right to know about what their kids are being taught, and to direct their education, even if it means teaching what that parent deems appropriate, not what *other* parents deem appropriate.
Again, if teachers and school staff are your neighbors, and they're proud of what they're teaching, why wouldn't they share with their neighbors the wonderful news of "see all these great books your kids are reading! And the authors have Nobel Prizes!"
Let's assume, for the sake of discussion, that I want my kids to read the complete works of Marquis de Sade.
That doesn't answer the real question - do I have the right not only to impose my preferences on other peoples' kids, or to conceal what they're reading from their parents?
If teachers want to be neighborly (and they're your neighbors, remember), they'd discuss with parents what they're teaching the kids.
And I have given my answer. School officials obviously can't put every nook in existence on the shelves. They must pick and choose. They will choose not to buy some books for various reasons, including that the "content upsets folks". If they could choose not to purchase a book in the first instance, I don't think they are constitutionally forbidden from changing their minds later.
Yeah, if people are upset by "The Turner Diaries" or "The Art of the Deal," there is no constitutional obligation to keep either on the shelves of public school libraries.
But if it's taken off because the content upsets the librarians? That's just fine, right?
Why don't you explain what where and what he said was wrong then? With specifics.
What you're missing Queenie is that removing a book because it's not popular (and hence not checked out) is a form of viewpoint discrimination.
Given two books that haven't been checked out in an equal time, but removing one of them, because you feel the other has special value, is also viewpoint discrimination.
Nope. If I were on the school board, I wouldn't object to having it read.
QA, consider lowering your mental thermostat, or at least switching your thinking engine from binary to analog. You seem to think you're debating with a conservative, and you're not.
As to your actual point: Doctors, scientists, and engineers who work for the government are all subject to being ultimately overruled by non-specialist elected officials. OF COURSE it's unwise to overrule them for petty political reasons or stupid contempt for expertise. But the whole principle of democracy is that ultimately they are accountable to the voters.
I see no compelling reason to have a special constitutional exemption for librarians that doesn't apply to other professionals. And if all professionals (right down to economists, budgetary experts, military, foreign policy specialists, etc) are exempt from democratic override then voting becomes just a meaningless symbolic exercise.
PS For someone who accuses others of making things "political", you seem awfully inclined to map every single question onto conservative vs liberal. Which leads you to make some seriously incorrect assumptions.
Is the school board not staffed with your neighbors also? Or they imported from out of state as part of a conspiracy?
What's your school being staffed with your neighbors got to do with anything? At most it might dictate the nature of the indoctrination.
Alright, just to be clear, of course I think professionals usually do a better job than politicians. That's why we have them. And of course it follows that politicians should usually delegate decisions requiring expertise to them, and should usually defer to their judgment.
That's different from giving them a constitutional right to exercise government power not subject to any higher authority.
A doctor gives advice, informally we call the advice "orders", and a prudent person usually takes it. But ultimately it;s up to the patient. Technically I'm a licensed engineer working for the government and of course I'd be upset if a non-engineer interfered with my technical judgment. But I'd never dream of claiming a constitutional right to flout their authority.
I worked in a library as my first paying job (shelving books, to be sure, rather than selecting or culling them). But one of my closest friends has an M.L.S. and worked several years in college and public libraries. He told me that the left-wing bias of the profession was astonishing (his fellow students were proud of the fact that Mao Zedong had been a librarian), and that you're kidding yourself if you don't think they let their leftism influence their decisions on accession and deaccession. They may restrain themselves enough not to be obvious about it, but they definitely use their position to influence the scope and volume of materials available.
No, the idea that libraries should have books that constituents like is as much an idea as the idea that libraries should have books that the experts think are good for them. Neither is content-neutral.
Queenie,
What you don't seem to grasp is that removing a book for "lack of interest" or "because it's not popular enough" is a type of viewpoint discrimination. The fact that it's different from "because I don't like the book" (as opposed to "other people don't like the book") doesn't matter from a legal perspective really.
So your neighbors have kids run the school board meeting? It sounds like you live in a really weird place.
Sorry to see what a prude Queenie is. In my high school, we read The Miller's Tale, which I would submit is (like the Bible and despite their accounts of some fairly sordid activities) of considerably higher literary, historical, and cultural value than "Gender Queer."
"masturbation"
The Oman passage was about withdraw during the sex act, not masturbation.
Like on what?
The authority of school boards? Surely you are aware that there are cases where liberal school boards disagree with a conservative professional working as a teacher. And many, many cases of liberal university admins disagreeing with a conservative professor. My position doesn't change. Because "who decides" isn't a conservative vs liberal position unless you are looking at a tree rather than the forest.
And if either the Book of Genesis, Gender Queer, or The Miller's Tale is made available in the schools, people believing it should be excluded should free to read verbatim from the portions they find offensive.
In my high school, we read The Miller's Tale
Did that cause anyone's face, at first just ghostly, to turn a whiter shade of pale?
I not only had to read The Miller's Tale, I had to memorize and recite a portion of it with (what the teacher claimed was) correct pronunciation of Middle English.
So if the professionals want kids exposed to The Turner Diaries, George Lincoln Rockwell's White power, or to Theodore Bilbo's magnum opus, Take Your Choice: Separation or Mongrelization, Queenie has no objection, because they're the experts and they know best what's good for kids.
"professionals"
Local school librarians are not some elite, highly skilled group. They purchase things and know how to use computers.
C'mon, Queenie -- out with it. Why the week-long hiatus followed by the alt account? The juicy story possibilities seem endless. Please don't disappoint.
Queenie, so you support curation if you agree with it. Got it.
Your question belies a blanket "yes" or "no". It would depend on the book and the reason. If a book was put on the shelves, but was later found to have age-inappropriate content, I wouldn't object to its removal. One perennially-challenged book is The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, chiefly due to its use of the n-word. I don't think it should be removed from school shelves, but don't feel so strongly about the issue that I would be upset if a school board deemed it too insensitive, especially as it is readily available from any number of other sources if a student wishes to access it.
A JD of course.
Master degrees with classes in how to buy things and using the computer, yes.
Oh, spare me. Masters degrees that are glorified occupational certificates. I let my plumber decide how to install a toilet, because I defer to his training and experience, but I don't let him decide whether I should have a composting toilet, a squat toilet, or a low-flow toilet, or whether installing a urinal as well as a toilet in my bathroom is an unacceptable concession to the patriarchy. And if he tries to decide, I get a new plumber.
Good for you. I believe not all material is appropriate for children, and such material can be removed from school libraries. What is appropriate for high school students is not necessarily appropriate for elementary school students. You disagree and are certainly entitled to your opinion. Of course, as most censorship is driven by the Left nowadays, your quarrel is more with them than me.
Guardian story was about Philly schools and I doubt "conservatives" are in control there or in Burbank.
So the answer to my question is two schools. Since 2015.
Greg J is wrong, and your nutpicking just shows how uncommon this is.
Funny how those "professional standards" are the sort that let progressive books like Michael Bellesiles' "Arming America" stay on the shelves but find opposing books like Clayton Cramer's "Armed America: The Remarkable Story of How and Why Guns Became as American as Apple Pie" to be insufficiently meritorious to win (or keep) a space on those shelves.
When we do it it's curation, when they do it it's censorship.
That's actually literally true. Or do you think that libraries operate by letting members of the general public put books on the shelves, to which other people respond by putting their own books up next to them?
I'm confused. I thought Volokh was a professor at a state university, not a book in a public school library. But if he *were* a book in a public school library, I wouldn't want him censored, but I would concede the right and authority of the school board to decide whether the should be on the library shelves.
(The same answer goes for his actual books. If a school board were to decide that Volokh's casebook on First Amendment law was a bunch of libertarian hooey, giving aid and comfort to purveyers of hate speech, I would disagree with their action in removing it from school libraries, but I would say there was no constitutional objection to their doing so.)
There. Now that I've answered you question, you can answer mine.
What you don't seem to grasph, Armchair, is that you're wrong.
Using metrics to determine which products stay on your shelf, and which do not, has nothing whatsoever to do with the viewpoint or content of the book in question. What is inside the book never factors into the decision.
Jason,
If your metric depends on the viewpoint of the public, then it is viewpoint-based discrimination.
Let's give you an example. We decide that you cannot hold your gay-pride parade because not enough people support it.
-Viewpoint-based discriminatoin.
We decide to eliminate your book from the library because not enough people check it out.
-Viewpoint-based discrimination.
Is getting a permit for a parade the same thing as checking out a book in a library?
I've never conflated the two, so I don't think it is.
Perhaps more Sesame Street would do you some good, so that you might learn to differentiate unlike things.
None of that argument remotely references anything ReaderY actually said.
Neither the Miller's Tale nor the biblical account of Onan is what I'd call obscene--or maybe you get turned on reading them and would therefore disagree.
Nice straw man you got there, Queenie. Shame if something was to happen to it.
Nobody is assigning kids graphic novels of either the Book of Genesis (though I understand that R. Crumb produced one) or the Miller's Tale. If they were, you might have some ground for drawing that kind of equivalence. (And that's certainly the case if Crumb's graphic novel of the Bible is anything like the work he used to do for those Zap Comix I used to read in my misspent youth.)
But if you like, feel free to run to my school board and tell them you are shocked, shocked to find that students are being assigned stories about students swiving carpenters' wives and parish clerks kissing those wives' nether eyes (and then giving those students the Richard II treatment with red hot pokers).
https://www.marshall.edu/library/bannedbooks/the-adventures-of-huckleberry-finn/
That was in my first 30 seconds of looking
You've posted in the past as if you're not a total idiot. Why are you acting like one now?
Not "two schools", that's two school districts, which is quite the different matter.
Loudon County Public Schools - another district that banned Dr Suess and Huck Finn - has 100 schools and 100,000 students.
That's not trivial or uncommon.
Good one +
You do realize this just shows how your 'same people' are a pretty small number.
No, Sarcastr0, it shows that you can easily find multiple examples with essentially no effort at all
And the reason why that's true is because it's widespread
Like this:
https://redstate.com/alexparker/2022/05/19/university-cancels-sonnets-because-theyre-a-product-of-white-western-culture-n567152
Whatever floats your boat, I guess. But the news that you're into necrophilia takes me back to my original theory that you managed to do or store something that got your prior email account shut down. That takes quite a bit -- hopefully no criminal charges are involved.