The Volokh Conspiracy
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No, the Supreme Court is Not Going to Reconsider the Constitutionality of Bans on Interracial Marriage
There's a lot of loose talk going around about the potential consequences of the Court's pending decision to overrule Roe v. Wade. Among other things, some serious people, such as several law professors in this Vox symposium, are suggesting that the Court may overrule Loving v. Virginia, which held that laws prohibiting interracial marriages are unconstitutional. After all, if abortion is not a firmly established historical right protected by the Due Process Clause, then perhaps neither is interracial marriage.
There are three reasons why Loving is safe.
First, over ninety percent of Americans approve of interracial marriage (compared to four percent in 1958!). Even more presumably think it should not be illegal, even if they disapprove of it. As a result, no state is going to ban interracial marriage, so no case will come to SCOTUS.
Second, overruling Loving would be politically unthinkable. The Supreme Court does not just follow the election returns, but it also does not go out of its way to overturn firm precedent that has the support of over ninety percent of the public and the demise of which would cause mass bipartisan public outrage.
Third, and most important, the Loving decision invalidated bans on miscegenation first and foremost on equal protection grounds, as an illegal racial classification, with the due process right to marriage only a secondary rationale. In the very unlikely event the Court were inclined to revisit the due process right to marry, Loving would be safe because of its equal protection holding.
Here's the Court:
While the state court is no doubt correct in asserting that marriage is a social relation subject to the State's police power, Maynard v. Hill, 125 U. S. 190 (1888), the State does not contend in its argument before this Court that its powers to regulate marriage are unlimited notwithstanding the commands of the Fourteenth Amendment. Nor could it do so in light of Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U. S. 390 (1923), and Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U. S. 535 (1942). Instead, the State argues that the meaning of the Equal Protection Clause, as illuminated by the statements of the Framers, is only that state penal laws containing an interracial element as part of the definition of the offense must apply equally to whites and Negroes in the sense that members of each race are punished to the same degree. Thus, the State contends that, because its miscegenation statutes punish equally both the white and the Negro participants in an interracial marriage, these statutes, despite their reliance on racial classifications, do not constitute an invidious discrimination based upon race. The second argument advanced by the State assumes the validity of its equal application theory. The argument is that, if the Equal Protection Clause does not outlaw miscegenation statutes because of their reliance on racial classifications, the question of constitutionality would thus become whether there was any rational basis for a State to treat interracial marriages differently from other marriages. On this question, the State argues, the scientific evidence is substantially in doubt and, consequently, this Court should defer to the wisdom of the state legislature in adopting its policy of discouraging interracial marriages.
Because we reject the notion that the mere "equal application" of a statute containing racial classifications is enough to remove the classifications from the Fourteenth Amendment's proscription of all invidious racial discriminations, we do not accept the State's contention that these statutes should be upheld if there is any possible basis for concluding that they serve a rational purpose. The mere fact of equal application does not mean that our analysis of these statutes should follow the approach we have taken in cases involving no racial discrimination where the Equal Protection Clause has been arrayed against a statute discriminating between the kinds of advertising which may be displayed on trucks in New York City, Railway Express Agency, Inc. v. New York, 336 U. S. 106 (1949), or an exemption in Ohio's ad valorem tax for merchandise owned by a nonresident in a storage warehouse, Allied Stores of Ohio, Inc. v. Bowers, 358 U. S. 522 (1959). In these cases, involving distinctions not drawn according to race, the Court has merely asked whether there is any rational foundation for the discriminations, and has deferred to the wisdom of the state legislatures. In the case at bar, however, we deal with statutes containing racial classifications, and the fact of equal application does not immunize the statute from the very heavy burden of justification which the Fourteenth Amendment has traditionally required of state statutes drawn according to race.
The State argues that statements in the Thirty-ninth Congress about the time of the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment indicate that the Framers did not intend the Amendment to make unconstitutional state miscegenation laws. Many of the statements alluded to by the State concern the debates over the Freedmen's Bureau Bill, which President Johnson vetoed, and the Civil Rights Act of 1866, 14 Stat. 27, enacted over his veto. While these statements have some relevance to the intention of Congress in submitting the Fourteenth Amendment, it must be understood that they pertained to the passage of specific statutes, and not to the broader, organic purpose of a constitutional amendment. As for the various statements directly concerning the Fourteenth Amendment, we have said in connection with a related problem that, although these historical sources "cast some light" they are not sufficient to resolve the problem; "[a]t best, they are inconclusive. The most avid proponents of the post-War Amendments undoubtedly intended them to remove all legal distinctions among 'all persons born or naturalized in the United States.' Their opponents, just as certainly, were antagonistic to both the letter and the spirit of the Amendments, and wished them to have the most limited effect."
Brown v. Board of Education, 347 U. S. 483, 347 U. S. 489 (1954). See also Strauder v. West Virginia, 100 U. S. 303, 100 U. S. 310 (1880). We have rejected the proposition that the debates in the Thirty-ninth Congress or in the state legislatures which ratified the Fourteenth Amendment supported the theory advanced by the State, that the requirement of equal protection of the laws is satisfied by penal laws defining offenses based on racial classifications so long as white and Negro participants in the offense were similarly punished. McLaughlin v. Florida, 379 U. S. 184 (1964).
The State finds support for its "equal application" theory in the decision of the Court in Pace v. Alabama, 106 U. S. 583 (1883). In that case, the Court upheld a conviction under an Alabama statute forbidding adultery or fornication between a white person and a Negro which imposed a greater penalty than that of a statute proscribing similar conduct by members of the same race. The Court reasoned that the statute could not be said to discriminate against Negroes because the punishment for each participant in the offense was the same. However, as recently as the 1964 Term, in rejecting the reasoning of that case, we stated "Pace represents a limited view of the Equal Protection Clause which has not withstood analysis in the subsequent decisions of this Court." McLaughlin v. Florida, supra, at 379 U. S. 188. As we there demonstrated, the Equal Protection Clause requires the consideration of whether the classifications drawn by any statute constitute an arbitrary and invidious discrimination. The clear and central purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment was to eliminate all official state sources of invidious racial discrimination in the States. Slaughter-House Cases, 16 Wall. 36, 83 U. S. 71 (1873); Strauder v. West Virginia, 100 U. S. 303, 100 U. S. 307-308 (1880); Ex parte Virginia, 100 U. S. 339, 100 U. S. 334-335 (1880); Shelley v. Kraemer, 334 U. S. 1 (1948); Burton v. Wilmington Parking Authority, 365 U. S. 715 (1961).
There can be no question but that Virginia's miscegenation statutes rest solely upon distinctions drawn according to race. The statutes proscribe generally accepted conduct if engaged in by members of different races. Over the years, this Court has consistently repudiated "[d]istinctions between citizens solely because of their ancestry" as being "odious to a free people whose institutions are founded upon the doctrine of equality." Hirabayashi v. United States, 320 U. S. 81, 320 U. S. 100 (1943). At the very least, the Equal Protection Clause demands that racial classifications, especially suspect in criminal statutes, be subjected to the "most rigid scrutiny," Korematsu v. United States, 323 U. S. 214, 323 U. S. 216 (1944), and, if they are ever to be upheld, they must be shown to be necessary to the accomplishment of some permissible state objective, independent of the racial discrimination which it was the object of the Fourteenth Amendment to eliminate. Indeed, two members of this Court have already stated that they "cannot conceive of a valid legislative purpose . . . which makes the color of a person's skin the test of whether his conduct is a criminal offense."
McLaughlin v. Florida, supra, at 379 U. S. 198 (STEWART, J., joined by DOUGLAS, J., concurring).
There is patently no legitimate overriding purpose independent of invidious racial discrimination which justifies this classification. The fact that Virginia prohibits only interracial marriages involving white persons demonstrates that the racial classifications must stand on their own justification, as measures designed to maintain White Supremacy. [Footnote 11] We have consistently denied the constitutionality of measures which restrict the rights of citizens on account of race. There can be no doubt that restricting the freedom to marry solely because of racial classifications violates the central meaning of the Equal Protection Clause.
II
These statutes also deprive the Lovings of liberty without due process of law in violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.
Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival. Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U. S. 535, 316 U. S. 541 (1942). See also Maynard v. Hill, 125 U. S. 190 (1888). To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual, and cannot be infringed by the State.
These convictions must be reversed.
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Phew! So my marriage to a member of another race is safe based on his race. Great. We're both men, though, so we're probably SOL anyway even though over 70% of Americans support same-sex marriages. And given that over 60% of Americans support a woman's right to an abortion, I'm not sure sure the "over 90%" rationale means much since a clear majority is a clear majority in all three cases. And Loving was decided in 1967 while Roe was decided in 1973. Do 6 additional years overcome Alito's new "deeply rooted in the nation’s history and traditions" test?
When same-sex marriages were (are still) being debated, there was a lot of talk about "same-sex marriage" as a unique thing versus just plain old marriage. How is "mixed-race marriage" also not a unique thing that is also lacking deep roots in our tradition? (AKA: not "traditional marriage.")
Perhaps the most convincing argument for why mixed-race marriages are safe from the Supreme Court is that Catholicism doesn't take a negative view of them.
And by that same standard, less than 20 years passed between Bowers v. Hardwick and Lawrence v. Texas.
Kudos on this great comment.
Agree. Excellent comment.
Did you even bother to read the article? Yeah, Bernstein's "first" and "second" points might not apply to same-sex marriages but the "third" point, the only one that really matters and the one that takes up almost all of the post, is about the equal protection basis - an argument that does support Obergefell but does not support Roe.
Alito addresses that also in his draft opinion. When the 14th Amendment was drafted, abortion was not considered covered. And from Bernstein's own article, neither was mixed-race marriage. Similarly, we can deduce that same-sex marriage was also not covered. The court's reasoning, as quoted by Bernstein, goes into why mixed-race marriages are still covered by the 14th amendment and Bernstein doesn't contrast with why reproductive choice based on a right to privacy is different.
There is no evidence that this isn't a direct attack on all the main culture war targets; why should anyone believe the right would be satisfied with taking out just the one?
30 years ago, conservatives argued that legalizing sodomy would lead to gay marriage. What would you say to everyone that said that was hyperbole and never going to happen?
I am certain some will try. But, they might not succeed for two reasons: 1) there has been a sea change in attitudes that make it perilous except in the reddest states, and 2) Gorsuch might very well agree DOMAs are unlawful discrimination on the basis of sex, forming a 5-vote bloc.
I don't even think it would pass (they won't even try) in the reddest of red states. Especially after the realities of potential tax revenue loss are explained to the legislative and executive branches.
Shawn. I want to marry my dog. You got a problem with that? No matter what the delusion of the lawyer, reality does not change.
Nor do I understand poltgamy. Why would a guy want 4 bosses instead of one?
"mixed-race marriage" also not a unique thing that is also lacking deep roots in our tradition"
6 of the original 13 states never banned black/white marriages and Pa. repealed its ban in 1780, pre-Constitution. Only 16 states still had any such laws when Loving happened, all Southern.
Indians and Europeans got married regularly. Pochontos for instance.
I'm confident that Obergefell is safe, but I chose to address Loving because there's at least a plausible argument that Obergefell could be in danger, but a law professor suggesting Loving is in danger borders on the irrational, fear-mongering, or both.
While I have been a proponent of enacting same sex marriage statutes for at least a decade prior to obergefell, the legal rationale in obergefell can be used to invalidate most any marriage restriction. poligomists could be considered to equal protection to marry 3, equal protection to marry cousins, or underage children etc. Not saying that would happen, just that the legal rationale would allow it if the justices liked the result.
Polygamists may have a good argument for why they deserve legalized marriage. Let's see if they make that argument. You can already marry your first cousin in a number of US states. You can already marry women as young as 12 in some states.
Perhaps dead-beat dads (Zablocki) and prisoners (Turner) are at risk of not being able to marry in the wake of Alito's opinion.
True…except the Supreme Court never has to take a polygamy case and they just have to hope no lower courts rule in favor of polygamy.
Polygamists actually have a pretty strong case, much stronger than SSM ever had. For all that the societal damage from permitting it would be greater, polygamy is a traditional form of marriage since forever, and has been legal in many countries all along.
I'd argue the prohibition against it is actually a violation of the free exercise clause, as well.
And polygamist suffered very real animus directed at them with Romney’s family actually having to move to Mexico in exile because the feds were prosecuting polygamists. Btw, if a family moves to a country in exile their children born on foreign soil should not be eligible to run for president…just like foreigners born on foreign soil aren’t eligible to run for president.
" Btw, if a family moves to a country in exile their children born on foreign soil should not be eligible to run for president…just like foreigners born on foreign soil aren’t eligible to run for president."
No, that's not how it works. Birthright citizenship comes from several potential paths.
1. If born on US soil no matter who your parents are and/or their citizenship status.
2. If both parents are US Citizens, the child is a US citizen by birthright regardless of the location of the birth.
3. It gets complicated if one parent is a US Citizen and the other is not. Then there are issues about how long the US Citizen parent had lived in the US. If the US parent meets the residency requirement, the child is a US citizen regardless of the location of birth.
The same history is true of same-sex marriage. It's just harder to find and you certainly won't find it in a Florida K-12 classroom.
No, the same is NOT true of SSM. You can find rare instances of something vaguely similar to SSM in the past if you squint hard, and occasional eccentrics, but it's not remotely the same as polygamy, which has ALWAYS been a very common form of marriage, throughout history, and even to this day is legal in substantial parts of the world.
The catholic church used to perform them. They've existed in various forms across the world for as long as two people enjoyed each other's company. Marriage itself has changed more over time than homosexual relationships have. You don't need to squint to find them, but I do agree it can be difficult with many centuries of taboos having erased much of the evidence.
I didn't even learn that the Nazis imprisoned gay men during WWII or that the allied armies left them in the prisons after they freed the surviving Jews until I reached college. Florida's having another go at deleting history they don't like. Let's see how that works in the internet age.
You're talking about "Platonic" marriage. It certainly wasn't regarded as "marriage" in the same sense as heterosexual marriage; For one thing, it was supposed to be chaste.
Going after children will NEVER happen if gay "marriage" is recognized .... that lasted what, a few years?
Polygamists actually have a pretty strong case, much stronger than SSM ever had.
And why is that?
Whatever its roots in history, polygamy is not much rooted in American tradition and history.
For all that the societal damage from permitting it would be greater, polygamy is a traditional form of marriage since forever, and has been legal in many countries all along.
True. Though you ignore that in many cases the polygamous marriages were not exactly totally consensual. But even leaving that aside, your comment, true as it is, suggests that "tradition!" is not a particularly powerful argument when it comes to discussing various social arrangements.
And SSM? Well, the argument against SSM on these grounds seems to be, "It's never been allowed, so we don't think it should be allowed." That's a pathetic argument.
Suppose we could show that there is a long and deep history of same-sex couples forming long-lasting intimate relationships, despite the fact that such relationships were often stigmatized both socially and legally. ISTM that this would be a strong argument in favor of allowing SSM, even from a traditionalist point of view.
For all that the societal damage from permitting it would be greater, polygamy is a traditional form of marriage since forever, and has been legal in many countries all along.
"Well, the argument against SSM on these grounds seems to be, "It's never been allowed, so we don't think it should be allowed." That's a pathetic argument."
That would be a pathetic argument, I agree.
The actual argument is, "It's never been allowed, so the Constitution doesn't suddenly mandate that it be allowed.
Remember, the question in Obergefell wasn't whether legalizing SSM was a good policy. It was whether the Constitution demanded that it be legal. Even if Obergefell had gone the other way, SSM could still have been legalized through normal democratic processes.
We're discussing what the Constitution does mean, not what it ought to mean.
Personally, I think Obergefell was an illegitimate usurpation by the judiciary. The judiciary were swept by a fad, and full of their own moral superiority, decided to hell with democracy, to hell with whether anybody had ever thought the 14th amendment meant any such thing, they were getting their way. And they just steamrolled the country. Perhaps with the passive aid of a legislative branch that privately agreed with them, and didn't dare openly thwart the voters, but certainly could get away with being ineffectual in defending their will.
This judgement has nothing to do with any moral questions about the legitimacy of the cause. Were it not for the utterly predictable application of this ruling to anti-discrimination law, (Which is pretty nasty, for all that the number of direct victims is fairly small.) I'd really have no complaint if its legalization had happened by a legitimate route. My complaint is procedural: This is not something the judiciary were entitled to do.
But, they did it. I don't see any prospect at all of reversing this, nor much reason to put up a futile effort in that direction. It would be a waste of energy better directed at minimizing the damage to our liberties caused by that application of anti-discrimination law, and fighting the efforts that the same people moved on to once this was accomplished. (I think we might not have seen this "trans" madness if they were still fighting for SSM. That sudden victory emboldened them.)
Obergefell is a sunk cost, time to move on to other battles we might yet win. And to hope like hell the judiciary doesn't get seized by another such fad any time soon.
You can focus your energy on the ACA individual mandate now. 😉
concur - As I stated I am in favor of same sex marriage statutes, while at the same time, the constitutional legal rationale rates pretty low,
If you are referring to the various cases of providers refusing to serve a gay couple's wedding, that was going to happen (and was already happening) without Obergefell.
Not to nearly so great a degree.
Also, by handing the left a free victory on SSM, they freed them up to pursue other, even nuttier causes. I think we wouldn't be seeing this "trans" insanity currently, if they were still busy fighting for SSM at the ballot box. Maybe not even if they'd fought for it there and won it; The fight would have forced some moderation and respect for public opinion, in order to succeed.
Actually I think Obergefell helped Republicans in 2016 by taking away a good issue for Hillary to run on AND making people believe Roe/Casey was safe. So the Supreme Court should have been a good issue for Hillary as McConnell was holding up the appointment but Democrats didn’t get energized which is why Trump won.
Hillary couldn't run effectively on gay marriage in 2016 because she opposed it up until 2013.
Politifact:
"Clinton came out in support of same-sex marriage in 2013 after more than a decade of opposing it....
We decided to put Clinton’s statements about same-sex marriage on our Flip-O-Meter."
Wheras Trump was way out in front of the issue, in 2000 while he didn't support gay marriage he supported robust domestic partnership laws, here is an interview with the Advocate:
"Advocate: What are your thoughts on gay marriage?
Donald Trump: I think the institution of marriage should be between a man and a woman. I do favor a very strong domestic-partnership law that guarantees gay people the same legal protections and rights as married people. I think it’s important for gay couples who are committed to each other to not be hassled when it comes to inheritance, insurance benefits, and other simple everyday rights.”
Trump’s primary voters were moderates and didn’t really care about his past positions anyway. Conservative Christians and Republicans that cared about judicial appointments voted for Cruz.
If they hadn't met him, I suppose. He was at a candidate forum in Greenville during the primaries, and the guy just screamed "used car salesman".
Maybe it's unfair to vote on the basis of such subjective reactions, but that was mine.
You might be right because peoples' political preferences don't necessarily reflect the stated policy preferences of the politicians, but wasn't Trump the more pro-gay marriage candidate?
The number of cases may have been less, but the courts would have had to deal with them all the same.
It was once thought that gay rights was a nutty cause. Now, only dinosaurs believe it. Hopefully, the same will be true of transgender rights in 50 years.
With respect to “transgender rights” I’m not sure trans are being discriminated against today. But the issue of trans athletes has been in the news and right now there is no such thing as “men’s sports”…women are free to participate in men’s sports right now and so trans athletes are obviously free to participate in men’s sports.
Holy shit Batman!
Well, they're not. Not being fully humored in your delusions isn't the same thing as being discriminated against, 'trans-women' are legally treated no worse than other men.
Biden has a top official that is trans mere months after Trump appointed the highest serving openly gay man. In 2022 nobody cares how people dress or if someone tucks their penis between their thighs…sorry if you thought chopping off your balls and wearing a dress made you edgy.
Heck, you don't even have to chop your balls off nowadays to get put in a women's prison. You've just got to say that you feel womanly.
The rationale is effectively the same as Loving except wrt sex rather than race. It's an equal protection based on sex issue.
Without the originalist 'expected application' element.
Personally, I think Obergefell was an illegitimate usurpation by the judiciary.
Personally, I think it was a clearcut decision.
Spot on. And selected in the proper order, for all the reasons you say.
But another post about Obergefell, even qualified carefully and with absolute intellectual honesty to reflect the arguably greater risks it faces as a precedent, would still be very useful from you.
Carry on.
PS: Imagining the same stare decisis drill, post Alito's-Dobbs, I have relatively more worries about the continued viability of Lawrence v. Texas, solely because of the relatively lesser reliance/change-of-position interests in planning a single sexual encounter ("Shall we commit sodomy tonight, dear? Have you checked today's cert grants to see if Lawrence is under fire? Or can we still rely on it?"), as compared to entering into a marriage.
So maybe you should do a series ....
60% percent of Americans support a womans right to an abortion, just not late term at 36 weeks like some Democrats.
15 weeks (trimester) is about as far as most people go. And in Europe its more strict than that.
This is inaccurate.
Most people go farther than 15 weeks. A WSJ poll shows 48% of people would support or somewhat support an abortion limit at 15 weeks but an ABC poll says that 57% believe abortion should be legal later than 15 weeks.
So-called "late term" abortions are extremely rare with only 1% happening after 21 weeks and an estimated 0.02% happening after 26 weeks. There are very good reasons to allow abortions later in pregnancy, for example the health of the mother, but there is wide agreement among liberals and conservatives that limits on later abortions are acceptable.
Europe isn't a single country. Some of the countries are largely Catholic and have predictable laws relating to abortion. On average, Western European countries are more liberal wrt abortion than the US. And let's not forget nearly all of them have state-run healthcare systems that provide the procedure. (Poland might be the only EU country that does not.)
We will find out whether this is true. How people poll often differs markedly from how people vote.
These are two different things. An issue poll like this is a single issue opinion. A vote is most often a multi-issue choice where, for most Americans, abortion ranks pretty low. Further, the nature of our primary system tends to give the voters less than ideal choices between extremes. Women who vote for anti-abortion politicians might be focused on "not the liberal opponent" or "this person will protect my job" more than whether they might have access to a medical procedure at some painful point in the future. So no, voting is largely not going to represent Americans views on just this one issue that only directly affects women.
yep. And the Democrats picked a bad year to fuck up the economy. also, education, Afghanistan withdrawal, the border...
Isn't it funny how bad things always happen when they're in charge? Bad luck, I guess...
“Extremely rare”. You dodge the point. The public is strongly opposed to late term abortions.
Why should elective late term abortions be legal? The bill today made them legal and that probably cost a decent amount of moderate support. Manchin explicitly said that provision cost his vote.
"Perhaps the most convincing argument for why mixed-race marriages are safe from the Supreme Court is that Catholicism doesn't take a negative view of them."
I think the more convincing argument is that no state is actually trying to kill the precedent made by Loving so no question on it will reach the SC.
"some serious people, such as several law professors "
If that is serious, G-d save us from the unserious.
What is serious about using "G-d"?
"And given that over 60% of Americans support a woman's right to an abortion"
That is a misleading in the sense that you lump many shades of opinion in that statistic.
If you ask how many support abortion to get rid of a baby of the "wrong sex", I doubt that you get 60%
And you get more support if you ask if it should be allowed to save the life of the mother. I don't see your point. A majority of Americans believe it should be legal in some or all cases. A majority of Americans also believes there ought to be some limits. Further, a majority (57%) believes 15 weeks is too limited. 54% of voters don't believe Roe should be overturned.
Meanwhile, in the real world, Alito's opinion would allow total bans on abortion and a number of states have trigger laws that will do just that. Some states are already banning abortion medication. And the Senate Minority Leader, who sees himself as the Majority leader in the near future, believes Congress has the authority to ban abortion nationwide.
"A majority of Americans believe it should be legal in some or all cases. "
And a majority of Americans believe it should be illegal in some or all cases. Why assign the "legal in only some cases" group to the legal in all cases faction?
Once again—what about the million frozen embryos in IVF clinics??
Put them up for adoption, obviously.
I do know a gay married couple that adopted an embryo and in another post I made the comment that I scoffed at the notion of snowflake babies years ago while at the same time conservatives were saying gay marriage would destroy marriage. So that’s something I got wrong that I’m happy to be wrong about.
Still, the owners of the embryos have to agree to the adoption and so most will be destroyed by the owners. But the fact couples create more embryos than the number of children they want to have says that in practice Americans don’t really believe life begins at conception. So the owners believe the high cost of the process justifies potentially destroying an embryo. Plus don’t embryos have rights which would made freezing them in perpetuity a messy moral question?? But embryos don’t have rights which is why I refer to owners of embryos and not parents.
A majority of Americans believe it should be legal in some or all cases.
Then they don't need the Supreme Court to uphold a constitutional right to abortion. They just need to enact abortion-rights laws through the democratic process.
If our "representative" system of government were representative of the "majority of Americans" then you'd have a point.
Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on one's perspective) some Americans are over-represented and some are under-represented in our current system. This fact is pretty clearly documented and should be uncontroversial. "Uncontroversial" in the sense that it's the status quo, rather than the sense that it's how it should be. That's another argument.
The point is that the statement that 60% support..." is misleading. Because that is NOT the proportion that support abortion on demand for any reason. Yet the quote is made in a way to imply that.
Learn a bit about what dishonesty with statistics is.
Tell me that your sole knowledge of law comes from reading hyperbolic posts from hyperventilating people on social media without saying that your sole knowledge of law comes from reading hyperbolic posts from hyperventilating people on social media.
That is not "Alito's new test." That test is far older than Roe itself.
Equal-protection does NOT support your right to such a "marriage."
A law passed by a legislature and signed into law does.
American morals have collapsed ... you win.
Natural marriage is between a man and a woman.
Gay marriage, or government marriage, is licensure for any two people to "confer dignity" and appropriate normal culture.
80% of Americans believe abortion should have restrictions.
Here's my real quibble: "While the state court is no doubt correct in asserting that marriage is a social relation subject to the State's police power"
Why do we accept that? Why is marriage not a religious sacrament protected by the First Amendment?
Minor quibble; in the first paragraph you say Loving held interracial marriages unconstitutional, where in reality it held that bans on such marriages were unconstitutional.
Thank you for this post. It's sad and pathetic that people actually believe that the Court would even sort of consider revisiting Loving, let alone actually overrule it. It's pure scaremongering without a shred of evidence to support it.
In point of fact, it is the liberals who are okay with racial classifications. They have no problem with rank discrimination in school admissions, but somehow the conservatives--who routinely decry racial classifications in numerous areas of law--are the ones we're supposed to believe are going to return us to the days of bans on interracial marriage.
What a load of horseshit. We have the 3 Trump appointees all on record that Roe is settled and what are we staring at?
Moreover, over 70% of people think abortion should stay as is but look at what is happening.
It's not absurd at all to think these assholes will find any bit of bullshit to undo Loving and any other number of cases. It's also not absurd to think a red state will bring such a ban about (I mean, look at all the unconstitutional bullshit they're already doing like in Ohio where they blatantly are ignoring the constitution on gerrymandering.)
You're a fucking idiot if you think there is no level that these authoritarians won't stoop to to ensure they get their way.
By authoritarians I assume that you mean those who want to have people fired from their jobs and ostracized from society for using the wrong pronouns? I await your ranting profanity-filled response.
"It's also not absurd to think a red state will bring such a ban about"
Tell me you don't know any Republicans without telling me you don't know any Republicans.
Which state do you think is most likely to enact a ban on interracial marriages?
Hopefully one of the good ones.
"Moreover, over 70% of people think abortion should stay as is but look at what is happening."
And how much does this mean, if 3/4 of that 70% don't have a clue what "as is" really is?
The polling that actually gets into the weeds, asks detailed questions about under what circumstances people think abortion should and shouldn't be legal, instead of asking "do you support Roe" of people who've never read the decision, paint a pretty different story.
Elective abortion only gets above 50% support in the first trimester, after that it tanks. A good deal of the support for abortion in the first trimester, and almost all of it afterwards, is for abortion for cause. Genuine threats to health, severe fetal deformity, rape and incest. Elective abortion is enormously unpopular after the first three months.
That's why pro-abortion coverage is relentless in describing bans on elective abortions as simply "bans on abortion", period. To trick people into thinking the abortions they actually think ought to be available are being banned.
But as a practical matter we currently have elective abortion until viability, and even after if you can find a doctor unscrupulous enough to declare your being upset over giving birth, or the perfectly normal risks of a healthy pregnancy, to be "medical necessity". And in some states even that last necessity is being waived now, and it's just elective abortion right up to delivery.
Rather sad that you need to resort to crude language to try to make your point.
https://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/RadioDerb/2017-01-27.html#05
You're a fucking idiot if you think there is no level that these authoritarians won't stoop to to ensure they get their way.
And you're a fucking idiot if you think that a return to miscegenation bans forms any part of "their way." Do you really think Justice Thomas is eager to have his marriage outlawed?
I am sure that there are more than a few Democrats and assorted black men that would like my marriage outlawed ... ain't happening.
"Do you really think Justice Thomas is eager to have his marriage outlawed?"
Sorry hon, if it was up to me we'd stay married, but you know, originalism and all...
Silly post:
- Most Americans don't rank abortion high on their list of priorities
- None of the Trump appointees are on record stating how they would rule on a Roe case, only that they would consider stare decisis, among other factors
- The real display of authoritarianism was reading this non-existent right into the constitution by the court rather than the lawmaking process to begin with.
Have fun.
While they did not legally commit perjury, they obviously lied to get the job.
As for unenumerated rights, I'm curious what other rights you want to bitch about because the Constitution doesn't explicitly mention them.
While you may find it convenient to declare, out of the blue, that you have a "right" to do something, so that the government may not punish you for it, or, even better, a "right" to something that the government must provide for you, saying "The Constitution requires it!" (and thus dispensing with the need to convince a majority of your fellow citizens) is dishonest and authoritarian. That's what he was "bitching"* about.
* See my comment above re: leftists and crude language.
raspberrydinners
May.11.2022 at 4:33 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
"What a load of horseshit. We have the 3 Trump appointees all on record that Roe is settled and what are we staring at?"
There are currently 9 justices on the SC - all of which are on record stating that stare decisis is a strong basis to respect precedent - but all 9 current justices have stated in their senate hearings that stare decisis is not absolute. Most, if not all the recently retired and deceased justices have made the same comment.
Why only single out the 3 trump appointees.
I think it is wrong to restrict this point to the 3 Trump nominees.
Plenty of justices are going to set aside stare decisis when an enlarged Court discards Dobbs.
Devious of Thomas to plot a dissolution by operation of law of his marriage to a white woman. Just plain sneaky.
Ha!
My reading of Thomas' jurisprudence is that he would probably vote to leave it up to the states and not get the feds involved. All the while knowing that he and his wife live in a state that allows it.
The same forces that placed Thomas and his right-wing colleagues on the court are the same forces that will want the feds deeply involved. This isn't about resetting the abortion discussion and coming to a more agreeable solution through a states-rights avenue. This is about banning abortion in the US. The USSC was a barrier. The Federalist Society organized against that barrier to an apparent, pending success. Now it's up to Mich McConnel to take this the rest of the way in 2023.
Mitch won't have 60 votes.
That assumes he needs them, for starters. Without the filibuster, he only needs 51. To remove the filibuster he needs 51. To avid a veto, he needs a couple more years patience. (And lifespan.)
There is nothing McConnell can do that better Americans won't undo in relatively short order.
Culture wars have consequences. So do inferior ideas, such as childish superstition, multifaceted bigotry, and rampant ignorance (to the point of delusion).
I am content to let time sift all of this. Of course, that's easy to say from the right side of history, the winning side of the culture war, and the advantaged side of predictable demographic trends.
My advice to conservative is to
start praying heavily.
It's gotta work better than the truth.
(If you can connect this one, you obviously have spent time on better things than praying.)
I love watching the hens cluck when their culture war betters drop one of their sacred cows into the pot.
And what is there to indicate that McConnell will kill the filibuster? He says he won’t and his track record backs that up.
Mitch loves the filibuster. It lets him block votes that would otherwise out RINOs, who'd end up losing their primaries. And Mitch loves his RINOs, they vote to make him majority leader, and that's really the only vote he cares about.
During Trump's first two years, when Republicans had both chambers, McConnell had turned the Senate into a killing ground for conservative legislation coming out of the House; Practically nothing the House sent over got a vote. And the filibuster was how he accomplished that.
Mitch won't kill the filibuster on his own initiative. Not if he has any choice in the matter.
It would be political suicide for Mitch to pass a bill which outlaws abortion in a nation that broadly supports it in the first trimester. He won't end the filibuster in order to commit suicide.
Did you see that study that showed how Congress votes < 20% of the time with the will of the people?
Our elected officials have re-election rates that would make Stalin or Saddam blush. They do not care about polls or what the people want, their re-elections are secured no matter what they do, or don't do.
The same forces that placed Thomas and his right-wing colleagues on the court are the same forces that will want the feds deeply involved. This isn't about resetting the abortion discussion and coming to a more agreeable solution through a states-rights avenue. This is about banning abortion in the US.
Justice Thomas doesn't think Congress has any authority to forbid you from growing marijuana in your backyard and consuming it in your house (presuming that your house and your backyard are in the same state) (Gonzalez v. Raich). He doesn't think Congress has authority to ban rape or other intrastate violence against women (Morrison v. United States). So he isn't going to suddenly find some unenumerated power for Congress to ban abortion. Sure, he hates abortion, but I doubt he's a big fan of rape or dope-smoking, either.
Thomas is already on record as thinking there is no federal authority to ban even late term abortions, I don't think the supreme court will uphold a federal abortion ban, it would be 8-1 or 9-0 against such a ban.
And it should be the same result for federal legalization of abortion.
I am in favor though of a federal right to travel law which would ensure the right to travel to any other state and engage in any activity legal in that state without legal liability. Of course it should also contain a nationwide constitutional carry provision to ensure people's safety while they are traveling.
Roberts and Alito upheld the partial-birth abortion ban without signing on to Thomas' concurrence which mentioned the federalism issue. It would shock me if either Kavanaugh or Barrett voted to strike down the law. so, it's 4-4 with Gorsuch as the tie-breaker.
FWIW, Clarence Thomas has recently opined that de jure segregation of public schools in the District of Columbia was not a deprivation of liberty. No matter how thin you slice it, that´s baloney.
See Thomas's concurring opinion in the recent United States v. Madero case: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/20-303#writing-20-303_CONCUR_5
His argument focuses on familiar originalist criticisms of substantive due process. It is thoroughly unsurprising that he would label Bolling v. Sharpe being incorrect as an original matter--especially in the context of its drafting history. But Thomas also believes in a broader interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment's Citizenship Clause as a potential angle to outlaw state-imposed racial discrimination, so make of that what you will.
Divorce can be expensive but if the marriage was unconstitutional and invalid you were never married and so there is no basis for her to steal your stuff.
To which we may add that Loving's originalist credentials are excellent. When the 14th amendment was ratified, multiple states repealed their laws against interracial marriage, on the basis that they were now unconstitutional. And the lower courts started striking down such laws where they were not repealed.
True, in Pace v Alabama, the Supreme court put a stop to that. In the Slaughterhouse cases, that same Court put an end to Reconstruction, and rendered the 14th amendment a practical nullity for generations.
I think it has long since been accepted that that Court's 14th amendment rulings are no legitimate guide to the meaning of the 14th amendment, but instead represented judicial malfeasance aimed at undoing it. No originalist credits that Court as a good source for the meaning of the 14th amendment.
It's also worth pointing out that most anti-miscegenation laws singled out particular races: whites weren't allowed to marry blacks, sometimes natives, and sometimes Asians. Miscegenation between those wasn't necessarily regulated. Once you consider how the 15A also exists it shouldn't have taken as long as it did for the laws to be stricken.
My own marriage would have been illegal in a good part of the country prior to the 14th amendment, and after Pace. Dark skinned Asians like my wife were considered interchangeable with blacks in much of the country.
"Once you consider how the 15A also exists it shouldn't have taken as long as it did for the laws to be stricken."
It didn't take long at all. That's my point. A lot of current 14th amendment jurisprudence is just a warped recreation of how the 14th amendment was interpreted immediately after it's ratification, before the Slaughterhouse Court set out to spike it.
I say warped because the Court lacked the integrity to just straightforwardly overturn the Slaughterhouse Court's rulings, and instead invented work-arounds like 'substantive due process'. And they incorporated the Bill of Rights piecemeal, instead of all at once as the 14th amendment's authors anticipated.
The most convincing argument that Loving will not be overruled is Justice Thomas.
Thomas can always rule that it should be left to the states. And he may support his own mixed-race marriage while thinking that he's against it for the wrong type. It's not as though he's never been a hypocrite, after all.
Thomas is the one most likely to overrule Loving. Just stating the obvious.
As someone in an interracial marriage, I haven't run into many people who disapproved. One guy (who nobody I know knows) once put an angry emoji on a picture of us on social media. Nobody has ever said to me or indicated that they believe interracial marriage should be banned or regulated. The closest I've personally seen is when individuals claimed some sort of extreme power dynamic (due to race) between myself and my children and that I couldn't claim anything based on their experiences (that would be appropriation). Even that isn't calling for a ban and it certainly wouldn't be a viable reason for one in any red state, but it's the closest I've seen.
There've been a number of stories in the news about black/white families experiencing racism in part due to their mixed nature. The most recent that I recall was a same-sex family who's children were followed into the bathroom by a stranger and asked if they were kidnapped. A similarly situated straight couple made the news not too long ago as well. The whole "those can't be your children" thing.
Racism still exists but I've never run into anyone who believes interracial marriage should be banned.
Just a personal observation. A mixed race marriage with a Black woman and White man have said they run into much disapproval. Almost exclusively from other Black women. I have seen no studies that break down such disapproval by race. Which is sort of surprising since it seems pretty much everything is broken down by racial classifications.
Yeah, people in West Virginia, rural Texas, Tennessee, Wyoming, and Alabama love interracial marriages.
Of course, real Americans draw the line at integrated proms . . . there is only so much from these social justice warriors that a real American can be expected to take.
Prof. Bernstein: Thank you for this useful post, which I hope will be linked and forwarded promiscuously for its well-justified reassurance that Loving is safe.
Now do Obergefell. Same-sex marriage is safe too, even though Alito's draft in Dobbs knocks all the constitutional props out from under it and necessarily implies that Obergefell might not be decided the same way if it were a question of first impression. The reason it's safe is the concrete reliance element in the stare decisis analysis. Justice Alito's draft acknowledges this as first among the reasons why the doctrine of stare decisis itself exists. It goes on to reject the controlling plurality in Casey's attempt to rely on nontraditional and vague sorts of reliance, contrasting that to reliance based on property and contract rights.
And that's what Obergefell is about — the marriage contract, and the resulting fundamental transformation of property (even in non-community property states), including for purposes of estate planning. What happened in the hours, days, and weeks after Obergefell, with hundreds of thousands of Americans entering into same-sex marriages, was exactly the sort of situation "when advance planning of great precision is most obviously a necessity.” It's impossible to conceive, in fact, of a more compelling example of concrete reliance on a SCOTUS precedent involving property and contract rights than Obergefell.
I think a bunch more folks are worried about Obergefell than Loving, and because the reliance element turns any future reconsideration of Obergefell into a foregone conclusion — that it won't be, and can't be, undone consistent with existing stare decisis law — would be similarly useful reassurance to that which you've provided in this post.
Yeah. Even in the absence a right to marriage, the current state of law is that state action must meet the standard of strict scrutiny in the case of race. A law against against corporations having principals of different races would be struck down on its face without anybody having to invent a Constitutional right to form a corporation; so too would any law against marriages having principals of different races.
(And, really, anyone paying the slightest attention would notice it's modern "conservatives" who are far stricter about "strict scrutiny" on race; it's the left that wants to carve out all sorts of reasons the state may invent racial categories and then discriminate between them in the name of various goals it considers desirable.)
When we have Democrats carrying tiki torches shouting "you will not replace us," you let me know. Until then, I'm sure there are some "very fine" conservatives being all principled about race, especially from those "shithole countries."
Let me add... I don't think all conservatives are racists. I just think they've largely sworn fealty to white nationalists who use race to keep them riled up.
Not all Republicans or conservatives are racists. But plenty of them are, and every other Republican or conservative is an appeaser of bigotry.
That is a large element of why conservatives have lost the culture war. That's why their stale, ugly thinking is doomed in modern, improving America.
Specifying "tiki torches" is unfair, but you are clearly unaware of the various "colonized people" movements: https://blackhammer.org/principles-of-unity/
I'm sorry, sir, you seem to have some sort of mental disability where you mistake an unambiguous statement about an empirically-observable public legal position ("far stricter about 'strict scrutiny' on race") with an evaluation of moral character or motives.
" ...no state is going to ban interracial marriage, so no case will come to SCOTUS." he says with full confidence.
But what about at Kim Davis style official who simply refuses to issue marriage licenses to mixed race couples? The official gets sued, it goes to a sympathetic district court who rules against the plantiffs, and then it's on to the 5th Circuit who does their predicable 5th Circuit thing and affirms.
Now it's on to the SCOTUS. How do Alito, Thomas, Barrett, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh handle it? Shadow docket time?
IANAL, but I fail to see how "...no state is going to ban interracial marriage..." will prevent it from coming before the SCOTUS. Am I missing something?
Also, 90% the US in favor does not imply that it is above 50% in every state, or that a sufficiently gerrymandered state could pass it against a majority of their voters.
All that said, Loving is probably safe *for now*, but it took decades to engineer the overthrow of Roe; we can assume the opponents of Loving are similarly patient. Besides, they'll surely do Griswald first.
"But what about at Kim Davis style official who simply refuses to issue marriage licenses to mixed race couples?"
They get fired. Then they challenge it in court and lose at every level.
"Also, 90% the US in favor does not imply that it is above 50% in every state, or that a sufficiently gerrymandered state could pass it against a majority of their voters."
NOWHERE in the country is there remotely enough support for bans on interracial marriage that even the most outrageous case of gerrymandering could get it over 50%. Do you get some sort of thrill out of imagining that you live in a racist country where the KKK is barely held at bay by the courts?
The general population has long since moved on when it comes to racial discrimination. It's basically dead in America. Kept on life support by the only proponents of racial discrimination in the country: Left wing advocates of racial preferences!
Savor the victory! Be happy! THIS FIGHT IS WON!
The general population...well, at least the FOX news OAN population...has been frothing at the mouth over the Southern border and building "The Wall!" for years. They excused Trump's "very fine people" comment referring to actual white power protesters. That is "basically dead in America?" Meanwhile anti-CRT laws are driving various GOP presidential hopefuls forward in the polls. Sounds like winning to me?!
"There were very fine people on both sides, & I'm not talking about the Neo-nazis and white supremacists because they should be condemned totally."
People can be opposed to unrestricted illegal immigration and the dereliction of constitutional duties by the executive branch without being racists, you know. Perhaps you are projecting.
For a person running around decrying "bigotry!" you sure are a bigoted man
So, which state do you think might plausibly pass such a law?
"The general population...well, at least the FOX news OAN population...has been frothing at the mouth over the Southern border and building "The Wall!" for years. "
National borders and interracial marriage really are not remotely comparable issues.
"They excused Trump's "very fine people" comment referring to actual white power protesters."
Tell us you do not know what the hell you're talking about without typing "I do not know what the hell I'm talking about".
Can you cite the VERY NEXT SENTENCE Trump said after that? Like the NEXT FUCKING SENTENCE?
"That is "basically dead in America?" Meanwhile anti-CRT laws are driving various GOP presidential hopefuls forward in the polls. Sounds like winning to me?!"
Opposing teaching racism in schools is just like opposing interracial marriage?
Shawn, you might need to sit this out. You're just shaming yourself here.
Yes. Davis mounted a Free Exercise defense without attacking Obergefell. With or without a reversal of Roe, it has always been possible for a Davis clone to do likewise over interracial marriages without attacking Loving. And like Davis, whoever does that is going to lose in federal court.
They may lose in federal court, but they will always have the hearts and minds of conservatives at this blog.
Which states do you think could plausibly enact such a law? Hell, in which states do you think legislator proposing such a law wouldn't be signing their own political death warrant?
In 2022, probably none. Smaller units of government, such as townships, counties, etc. there's probably a few out there, but fortunately or unfortunately I can't point to a specific example. Or HOAs, who seem to be immune to civil rights laws, such as the one near me that doesn't allow Jews to own property or be members.
I think the broader point is that these rights only exist to the extent that the courts are willing to enforce them, and we've seen in recent days an unwillingness on the part of the courts to enforce rights when the personal opinions of the jurists are in conflict with with enforcing those rights.
The prime example would be the SCOUTS declining to enforce current precedent (Roe) in a case where it clearly was current precedent (Whole Woman's Health v. Jackson). Today, we had the 5th Circuit ignoring a large body of settled 1A law to overrule a lower court in NetChoice and CCIA v. Paxton. Both were issued without any legal reasoning or logical support for the ruling. Just a "SUCKS TO BE YOU" decision without even bothering to address the issues at hand or explain why.
This seems to be the new wave of "conservative" jurisprudence.
What the fifth circuit did yesterday was… not good. But it did not "overrule" anything. (It may have signaled that it was going to. But that is not the same thing.)
Ok, No court has issued a decision yet on the case, so there is no ruling to overrule. But the district court issued an injunction against enforcement, which the fifth circuit reversed yesterday.
Perhaps that isn't "overruling", but it's certainly a reversal, and as you say "not good".
The first two points imply that the Court follows public option. I do recall all the Justices adamantly saying that they are not politicians and will rule however the law requires regardless of pubic outcry.
It's a nice concept...then you remember Roberts declaring something is a tax when its proponents said the precise opposite during the entire debate on the bill....
Predicting what the current Supreme Court will or will not do is a mug´s game. No constitutional right is safe. Thanks in large part to Jill Stein and those who voted for her in 2016.
It didn't start with Jill Stein, I'd say the modern era of civil rights erosion started with the assault waepons ban in 1994.
The 3rd reason ought to be given first. Justice Black’s concurrence in Loving provides the independent ground for it, completely unrelated to Due Process or privacy claims, that no Justice currently on the court is going to disturb.
While sex classifications may or may not get strict scrutiny, racial classifications do.
A bunch of pathetic Chicken Little's in here, a few good contributions, by crying Chicken Little's seem to rule the day.
lol
Justice Black's concurrence in Loving? Only Justice Stewart wrote separately in that case - is that what you mean?
With no real bills in the works nationwide, it is indeed silly to start dramatically listing which rights will fall next.
But I also can't help but notice how weak Alito's attempts were to limit his logic to just abortion.
Some might say from his desire to continue to rampage through the other SDP rights he listed. But since I can't really think of not have I seen a better limiting principle once you open this door, I think it's just that there is no better limiting argument to be made.
So functionally? Interracial marriage and contraception and even probably gay marriage are fine. But formally stuff just got weird for lower courts.
Did not Obergefell have significant problems with limitation factors? Plenty have commented on it.
Just another made up story by leftists. Such a huge part of online discussion is people pointing out that bogeyman stories aren’t real.
Hysteria and rage are not virtues.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/05/06/americas-abortion-quandary/
The nuances of what Americans really think about abortion. They largely align with the Mississippi law...
While I agree with Bernstein's conclusion, I think his reasoning is backwards.
The main reason the court is not going to overturn Loving is popular opinion, politics, whatever, not Constitutional niceties.
I simply do not believe the conservative wing of the court has the integrity to oppose right-wing culture warriors, no matter the issue, unless the decision would be insanely unpopular.
These are not principled jurists.
Or maybe their principles as jurists are diffferent from, "let's enforce what is the elite opinion du jour."
The notion that the 14th Amendment enshrines a right to abortion, when that was illegal in every state at the time, is absurd. Nothing unpricipled about so ruling.
I predict this post will not age well
So what you're saying is that when conservatives talk about how only rights that are related to "deeply held traditions" are protected, they're lying out their asses.
I mean, that tracks, but you should just say *that* instead of dancing around it.