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Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene Not Disqualified from Federal Office
So Georgia Administrative Law Judge Charles R. Beaudrot ruled yesterday.
You can read the full opinion in Rowan v. Greene (Ga. Ofc. State Admin. Hearings); here's an excerpt:
Challengers allege that Rep. Greene "does not meet the federal constitutional requirements for a Member of the U.S. House of Representative1s and is therefore ineligible to be a candidate for such office." They assert that Rep. Greene "voluntarily aided and engaged in an insurrection to obstruct the peaceful transfer of presidential power, disqualifying her from serving as a Member of Congress under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment …." … This section of the 14th Amendment provides:
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability….
To prove that the Disqualification Clause bars Rep. Greene's candidacy, Challengers must show that:
- after Greene took an oath to defend the Constitution
- she engaged
- in insurrection against the Constitution.
The parties have stipulated that the first time Rep. Greene took an oath to defend the Constitution was January 3, 2021, when she was sworn in as a member of Congress. Therefore, only conduct by Rep. Greene occurring after taking that oath on January 3, 2021, is relevant in determining whether the Disqualification Clause applies. Similarly, statements made by Rep. Greene and actions taken by her prior to her taking of the oath on January 3, 2021, are only relevant, and can only be considered, to the extent they explain her conduct occurring after the taking of the oath….
There appear to be two judicial opinions that have considered the meaning of the word "engage" as used in the Disqualification Clause. See United States v. Powell, 65 N.C. 709 (1871) (defining "engage" as "a voluntary effort to assist the Insurrection … and to bring it to a successful [from insurrectionists' perspective] termination"); Worthy v. Barrett, 63 N.C. 199, 203 (1869) (defining "engage" as "[v]oluntarily aiding the rebellion by personal service or by contributions, other than charitable, of anything that was useful or necessary").
It appears that it is not necessary that an individual personally commit an act of violence to have "engaged" in insurrection. See Powell, 65 N.C. at 709 (defendant paid to avoid serving in Confederate Army); Worthy, 63 N.C. at 203 (defendant simply served as county sheriff). Nor does "engagement" require previous conviction of a criminal offense. See, e.g., Powell, 65 N.C. at 709 (defendant not charged with any prior crime); Worthy, 63 N.C. at 203 (defendant not charged with any crime); In re Tate, 63 N.C. 308 (1869) (defendant not charged with any crime); Gerard N. Magliocca, Amnesty and Section Three of the Fourteenth Amendment, 36 CONST. COMMENT. 87, 98–99 (2021) (in special congressional action in 1868 to enforce Section Three and remove Georgia legislators, none of the legislators had been charged criminally).
Rep. Greene points to the use of word "engage" in a similarly-worded 1867 statute with more severe consequences (disenfranchisement) than the Disqualification Clause. The then Attorney General construed that statute to require "some direct overt act, done with the intent to further the rebellion." The authority does not indicate that a prior criminal conviction is necessary to trigger the Disqualification Clause.
On balance, therefore, it appears that "engage" includes overt actions and, in certain limited contexts, words used in furtherance of the insurrections and associated actions. "Merely disloyal sentiments or expressions" do not appear be sufficient. But marching orders or instructions to capture a particular objective, or to disrupt or obstruct a particular government proceeding, would appear to constitute "engagement" under the Worthy-Powell standard. To the extent (if any) that an "overt act" may be needed, see id., it would appear that in certain circumstances words can constitute an "overt act," just as words may constitute an "overt act" under the Treason Clause, e.g., Chandler v. United States, 171 F.2d 921, 938 (1st Cir. 1948) (enumerating examples, such as conveying military intelligence to the enemy), or for purposes of conspiracy law, e.g., United States v. Donner, 497 F.2d 184, 192 (7th Cir. 1974) (even "constitutionally protected speech may nevertheless be an overt act in a conspiracy charge").
Challengers argue that Rep. Greene's speeches, texts, tweets, and appearances evidence a long-term plan to foment an insurrection on January 6 in order to prevent Congress from completing its Constitutional duties in certifying the election of President Biden. Under Challengers' view of the evidence, Rep. Greene was planning and furthering insurrection long before she took office. This plan, they contend, began as soon as it was clear that President Trump would lose the 2020 election. Under Challengers' view of the evidence, the January 6 Invasion was "Plan B," to be triggered when efforts to object to the Electoral College votes and to persuade Vice President Pence to refuse the certification of President Biden failed.
The difficulty with Challengers' theory is the lack of evidence. Whatever the exact parameters of the meaning of "engage" as used in the 14th Amendment, and assuming for these purposes that the Invasion was an insurrection, Challengers have produced insufficient evidence to show that Rep. Greene "engaged" in that insurrection after she took the oath of office on January 3, 2021. In short, even assuming, arguendo, that the Invasion was an insurrection, Challengers presented no persuasive evidence Rep. Greene took any action—direct physical efforts, contribution of personal services or capital, issuance of directives or marching orders, transmissions of intelligence, or even statements of encouragement—in furtherance thereof on or after January 3, 2021.
There is no evidence to show that Rep. Greene participated in the Invasion itself. To the contrary, the evidence shows that she was inside the Capitol building at the time, and unaware of the Invasion until proceedings were suspended at approximately 2:29 p.m. on January 6, 2021.
Further, there is no evidence showing that after January 3, 2021, Rep. Greene communicated with or issued directives to persons who engaged in the Invasion. Challengers point to Rep. Greene's apparent prior contact with certain persons, such as Anthony Aguero. They point to postings from various persons, such as Ali Alexander. But the evidence does not show that Rep. Greene was in contact with, directed, or assisted these individuals, or indeed anyone, in the planning or execution of the Invasion. Rep. Greene denies any such contact or involvement and that denial stands unchallenged by other testimony or documentary evidence.
Challengers make a valiant effort to support inferences that Rep. Greene was an insurrectionist, but the evidence is lacking, and the Court is not persuaded. The evidence shows that prior to January 3, 2021, Rep. Greene engaged in months of heated political rhetoric clothed with strong 1st Amendment protections. NAACP v. Claiborne Hardware Co. (1982); see also Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969). The evidence does not show Rep. Greene engaged in months of planning and plotting to bring about the Invasion and defeat the orderly transfer of power provided for in our Constitution. Her public statements and heated rhetoric may well have contributed to the environment that ultimately led to the Invasion. But expressing constitutionally-protected political views, no matter how aberrant they may be, prior to being sworn in as a Representative is not engaging in insurrection under the 14th Amendment.
Challengers point to Rep. Greene's statement during the Newsmax Interview on January 5, 2021, as a literal call to arms to storm the Capitol. {In this interview …, Rep. Greene discussed her plans to challenge the results of the 2020 presidential election by supporting challenges to the certification of Electoral College votes. When asked, "What is your plan tomorrow? What are you prepared for?" Rep. Greene answered, "Well, you know, I'll echo the words of many of my colleagues as we were just meeting together in our GOP conference meeting this morning. This is our 1776 moment."}
The Court finds this to be the only conduct that could even possibly be interpreted as triggering the Disqualification Clause. If this statement was in fact a coded message from Rep. Greene to her co-conspirators to go forward with a previously planned incursion into the Capitol, it might constitute an overt act and one that occurred after she took her oath as Representative.
Based on the evidence, the Court is unpersuaded that Rep. Greene's ambiguous statement that "[t]his is our 1776 moment" was a coded call to violent insurrection on January 6, 2021. Heated political rhetoric? Yes. Encouragement to supporters of efforts to prevent certification of the election of President Biden? Yes. Encouragement to attend the Save America Rally or other rallies and to demonstrate against the certification of the election results? Yes. A call to arms for consummation of a pre-planned violent revolution? No. It is impossible for the Court to conclude from this vague, ambiguous statement that Rep. Greene was complicit in a months-long enterprise to obstruct the peaceful transfer of presidential power without making an enormous unsubstantiated leap….
The parties and the Court agree that the actions of the participants in the Invasion were despicable. The parties strongly disagree, however, as to whether the Invasion constituted an "insurrection" within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. They proffer competing definitions of the meaning of the term "insurrection" as used in the 14th Amendment and whether the events of the Invasion meet those definitions.
The events that occurred on January 6, 2021, are truly tragic. Multiple lives were lost, including those of law enforcement officers who died defending the Capitol. Many sustained injuries, some of them permanent and life-changing. The citadel of democracy, the U.S. Capitol, was violently breached in the most serious incursion in 200 years. Members of Congress, including Rep. Greene, were forced to take shelter for several hours to avoid the wrath of the invaders. Congress was unable to perform its obligations under the 12th Amendment to the Constitution. It is among the saddest and most tragic days in the history of our American Republic. The well documented images of the events of the day are painful in the extreme.
Whether the Invasion of January 6 amounted to an insurrection is an issue of tremendous importance to all Americans and one that may yet be addressed. However, it is not a question for this Court to answer at this time. Because the Court finds Rep. Greene did not "engage" in the Invasion, either as a direct participant or in its planning and execution, after taking her oath on January 3, 2021, it is not necessary to address the question of whether the events of January 6 constituted an "insurrection" within the meaning of the 14th Amendment.
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That was one of my favorite opinions on a heated political issue I've read in a while
That was not an isurrection. The American Revolution was an insurrection and thousands died. That was a pro-democracy protest against the failed elite of Washington.
Greene has legislative immunity. Any utterance was political and immunized by the Free Speech Clause. That judge allowed the case to proceed despite the immunities of the defendant.
The lawsuit is a frivolous attempt to harass her and to deny the decision of the voters about her. The clerk of court should be dismissing such claims.
All legal costs should have been assessed to the assets of the plaintiff lawyers. Those costs should include the emotional distress of the defendant, minus the value of her exposure on TV and of her enhanced fund raising.
Lawyers need a copy of Warriners English Grammar and Composition. Judge finds Green qualified for federal office.
Pardon my ignorance, but is this administrative law judge issuing recommendations to some official body, or is the decision immediately effective?
It sounds like the ALJ has the authority to decide the question, in a way that binds the Georgia Secretary of State, at least in the first instance; but I expect there can also be an appeal.
Thank you!
Near the end of the decision, the ALJ seems to indicate that Secretary of State Raffensperger could "...accept or reject this Initial Decision..."
Of course. We live in extremely dumb times. That the case was not immediately dismissed is sad.
Sometimes a good legal analysis is the better option; avoids the conspiratorial "they swept it under rug!" kind of claims. I have no problem with denial on the merits here.
Sometimes but sometimes its just partisan hack politics. For example, can we bring Maxine Waters up same. How about Elizabeth Warren for her recent rants.
Of course not because they are Democrats
Who do you imagine is stopping you from bringing similar complaints against Rep. Waters or Sen. Warren?
OTOH, the full process probably cost MTG $100K
Say the case is ridiculous. Who made money here? The lawyers of both sides, the judge. They are colluding to rip off the defendants and the taxpayer. They should all be arrested for conspiracy to defraud.
But they had a clip from Independence Day! How could they lose?!
As a certain commentor would say, "Not Guilty!"
I agree with the reasoning of the opinion. I am glad the hearing was held and that Rep. Greene was cross-examined about her conduct. (She may want to consult appropriate medical providers about her inability to remember significant events.)
In the final analysis, it is for the voters to determine whether Rep. Greene deserves another term in Congress.
Agree = In the final analysis, it is for the voters to determine whether Rep. Greene deserves another term in Congress.
I agree that Marjorie Taylor Greene, a vile stain on America, should be on the ballot.
The poorly educated, roundly intolerant, disaffected, conservative residents of Georgia's left-behind-for-good-reason rural stretches have rights, too. That includes the right to vote for an un-American, delusional fellow culture war casualty.
Carry on, clingers. Your betters will let you know how far and how long, as has become the American way.
Maybe we can send Comey to the same doc?
Comey needs to answer questions before a judge, under oath.
Comey is a Republican. Should we expect him to lie and dodge in the manner of Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Clingerverse)?
Do you remember everything you said and did on January 6, 2021? No? Obviously guilty then. Off with your head!
In the final analysis, it is for the voters to determine whether President Trump deserves another term as president.
Even though he doesn't
She may want to consult appropriate medical providers about her inability to remember significant events
Thanks for that incredible insight. Your lawyerly acumen is so obviously beyond anything a mere mortal can comprehend.
I guess now they'll have to beat her the old-fashioned way.
Different cheating?
The best part of rigging elections might be knowing that Republicans are powerless to do anything about it other than whine, whimper, and move toward replacement.
Getting stomped by better ideas and people in a culture war has consequences.
So you admit that they're rigged? Wow. I had my doubts.
Not only are they rigged . . . I personally rig them.
Satan helps.
Anyone can print ballots and stuff ballot boxes at night.
Republicans should start doing that big time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xki5HlFV66A
2000 Mules
Well, that was just was stupid and I imagined it would be.
Florida seems to be getting along nicely in their counter-gerrymandering effort. Last I checked the four new GOP districts DeSantis has created nullify thr combined effects of Democrat gerrymandering nationwide.
This is a wild way to defend gerrymandering - it's not some sort of nationwide game, ffs. And also ignores a lot of other Republican states.
S_0,
"it's not some sort of nationwide game"
Of course it is. Look at NY.
It's not entirely clear to me that DeSantis actually gerrymandered Florida. Except for Tampa bay, his map is significantly better on compactness than the prior map. Rather, he appears to have broken up some racial gerrymanders that were committed in the name of the Voting Rights act and a similar state constitutional amendment. He's arguing that they're actually unconstitutional under the 14th amendment.
It seems he's trying to set up a challenge to the judicially created 'right' to benefit from racial gerrymandering if you're not white. About time!
By ballot harvesting and by votes by illegales.
With clubs?
The judge assumes without explaining that the attempted insurrection, if it is one, ended on January 6. That strikes me as an error. To determine for sure whether Greene was a participant, the judge would have to show the insurrection attempt is not ongoing, and that Greene is not still—or was not for some time after January 6—a participant.
I have not followed Greene's antics, and have no opinion whether that would make a difference, but it does seem to leave a hole in the reasoning.
The judge is supposed to imagine evidence might exist — evidence that no one presented or alleged? That’s not what judges do.
Wow...that's one I hadn't heard before.
The events of January 6th were not only an insurrection, but one that continued after January 6th, and is still going on.
Amazing.
In an insurrection, weaponswoild be fired. A Democrat assassin killed a brave female patriot and veteran. He shouldhave been Floyded.
Properly speaking, the events of January 6th amounted to an attempted coup, while the events since are more laying the groundwork for an additional, more successful attempt - having learned from the failure points of January 6th.
Oh joy....we can now make virtually anyone not eligible for office, based on the insurrection clause.
You keep making stuff up. Despite the alien invasion the judge ruled in MTGs favor
Neither an alien invasion or an insurrection happened
SL, you forgot your tinfoil hat this morning.
There are a bunch of democrat congressmen/women breathing a sigh of relief that their nut job antics can't get them thrown off the ballot.
Not really. These sorts of challenges based on partisan drama are all doomed. Anyone smart enough to get elected to office likely knows this type of thing goes nowhere.
Idead. In the Seattle, Minneapolis, etc. autonomous zones, armed militias literally (literally "literally") seized territory and declared themselves no longer subject to the jurisdiction of the US. Great numbers of lawmakers spoke out in support of those literal insurrections.
"In the Seattle, Minneapolis, etc. autonomous zones, armed militias literally (literally "literally") seized territory and declared themselves no longer subject to the jurisdiction of the US."
LOL. In Minneapolis there was a George Floyd memorial. In Seattle there was a so-called autonomous zone, but I haven't seen any account in which people declared they were no longer subject to the jurisdiction of the US. Do you have any citation for this claim? The "etc." that you're trying to use to imply there were other similar places, of course, is even emptier.
"Great numbers of lawmakers spoke out in support of those literal insurrections."
Nope. A few people like the Seattle Mayor said that there wasn't a need to forcibly remove them or that they were behaving nonviolently. Do you have an example of a politician actually supporting them?
You can't allow it to just transfer power 'peacefully' like Joe Biden wants, and allow him to become our president. Because he did not win this election. It's being stolen and the evidence is there — MTG, Feb 4, 2021
Turns out the judge was wrong. MTG was still spouting insurrection on February 4, 2021. She should be disqualified from the ballot. With that quote it doesn't even look like a close question.
Apparently the judge did indeed limit his consideration to the interval prior to January 6. Major mistake.
Did those seeking to have her disqualified claim an on-going insurrection past Jan 6 and did they put the above quote into evidence?
The judge's job is to evaluate the claims and evidence presented by the parties. It is not the judge's job to go out looking for evidence on his own.
He doesn’t know, he’s just pissed that his team lost and is venting.
I understand and appreciate why she won, but I wish she’d have lost anyway. She’s a waste of skin.
Slyfield, here is what the judge said on that:
Whether the Invasion of January 6 amounted to an insurrection is an issue of tremendous importance to all Americans and one that may yet be addressed. However, it is not a question for this Court to answer at this time. Because the Court finds Rep. Greene did not “engage” in the Invasion, either as a direct participant or in its planning and execution, after taking her oath on January 3, 2021, . . .
That is the court limiting the scope, while dodging an issue which would have resolved the question. Had the court attempted to define whether insurrection occurred, the "when" of it would have been opened for evidence, including evidence from post-January 6. But the court cuts it off at January 6, using its own arbitrary formulation for an end point—"the invasion"—and its own arbitrary determination that it need not consider the insurrection question.
Given that the case is about insurrection, it seems fair to criticize the court for not taking up the subject the case is about. Had the court done that, it would have opened the record to evidence relevant to that subject.
You didn't answer the actual question. You answered some different question that you wanted to answer.
I see you're not familiar with Stephen Lathrop.
Go ahead, Noscitur, explain his point for him.
You're kind of sliding over the important bit, which is "did not “engage” in the Invasion, either as a direct participant or in its planning and execution".
Lacking presentation of evidence of either, the end result was a given.
Oh, and "spouting insurrection" isn't a thing, legally. You have to actually engage in it for it to matter.
Did the challengers allege that there was an insurrection that continued past January 6? If not, the judge was fully justified in refusing to consider that possibility.
Seamus, here, from the decision, is how the judge structured the proceeding:
• after Greene took an oath to defend the Constitution
• she engaged
• in insurrection against the Constitution.
The judge then refused to decide the question of the existence of insurrection. That prejudiced the outcome on behalf of Greene.
Instead of considering all the allegations against Greene, the judge simply announced that only evidence pertaining to part of a 3-day interval would be considered. The judge did that by adding an arbitrary red herring to the proceedings, the notion of an, "invasion," which was made to do the work of limiting the duration of Greene's liability to 3 days, however irrelevant that invention was to the structure the judge had imposed.
Note that putting the proceedings in that posture excluded argument that insurrection was ongoing before Greene took her oath, and that Greene was already implicated. If that could have been argued, and proved, then Greene could have properly been excluded not only from the ballot, but also from office, from the moment she lied about defending the Constitution, despite already being an insurrectionist. If an argument were offered that she had reformed, and would henceforth be obedient to her oath, that could be disproved by her conduct following January 6, 2021. I have cited her own statements as evidence for that. Investigation of her fund-raising allegations would add extensive further proof.
By creating a structure of proof to govern the proceedings, and then circumventing that structure with an arbitrary invention outside the structure, the judge made the proceeding meaningless. Absent any court of appeal, nothing Greene's accusers offered could have succeeded.
The Greene incident is over now. The opportunity missed was a chance to chasten others in government, like Greene, who continue with insurrectionist intent to lay groundwork for the overthrow of American constitutionalism.
"The opportunity missed was a chance to chasten others in government, like Greene, who continue with insurrectionist intent to lay groundwork for the overthrow of American constitutionalism."
It is not the judge's job to do that. It's his job to decide the case in front of him, nothing more, nothing less.
Slyfield, Greene has no case for office, nor even for a place on the ballot. As with all candidates for office, that question is for the sovereign People to decide. They impose the criteria. This judge refused even to consider the specific criteria which applied to this case. That is not in question. It is what the judge said in the opinion.
"This judge refused even to consider the specific criteria which applied to this case."
The judge's job is to consider the claims, arguments and evidence raised by the parties.
Whether 1/6 was an insurrection or not is irrelevant because the challengers presented no valid evidence that she "engaged" in it.
Oh, and as to " As with all candidates for office, that question is for the sovereign People to decide.", the place the sovereign people decide that is at the ballot box, not before hand in deciding who gets to be on the ballot.
You can't present whatever evidence you want. The judge has to find it relevant in order to allow it to be submitted. Stephen is saying, convincingly, that by refusing to engage with the insurrection question, the judge ended up excluding a bunch of evidence of MTG's malfeasance. Evidence that would have been useful in both deciding whether it was an insurrection and then, if so, the extent of MTG's engagement with it.
You could also argue from the other side that if the judge decided it wasn't an insurrection at all, the rest of the opinion is moot. There was no need to pillory MTG at all.
So it's odd that the judge decided to skip over that question. Why, if not to artificially limit the evidence?
" Stephen is saying, convincingly, that by refusing to engage with the insurrection question, the judge ended up excluding a bunch of evidence of MTG's malfeasance."
No, it's not at all convincing. That he did not engage with that question (because he assumed yes for purposes of the decision) in the decision says nothing about whether any evidence was excluded at trial.
Also, there would be no reason to exclude such evidence if the challengers didn't attempt to present it.
So, cite to where the challengers attempted to present such evidence to the court and the court excluded it.
The judge then refused to decide the question of the existence of insurrection. That prejudiced the outcome on behalf of Greene.
All she needed to win was a decision that the Challengers had failed on any one of the three elements. Once the ALJ decided that she hadn't "engaged" in the actions that the Challengers said constituted an "insurrection," there was no need to proceed to the third point.
But that raises the question, Did the Challengers allege that any actions after January 6 constituted an "insurrection" in which MTG "engaged"? If not, then (I reiterate) it was perfectly appropriate for the ALJ not to consider her participation in events after January 6. It's not the judge's job to think up all the claims and arguments t he Challengers *might* have made.
Would a southerner after the Civil War, who participated voluntarily, but was never a government official or employee at any level anywhere, be blocked if they attempted to run for Congress years later?
I don't think so. This is all about violating your oath of office. If you never held an office with an oath to violate, then this situation doesn't apply to you.
"But the court cuts it off at January 6, using its own arbitrary formulation for an end point"
And your evidence that the judge didn't use 1/6 as a cut off because 1/6 is the only insurrection claimed by the parties is what exactly?
Did you miss the part where the judge said "engaging" in insurrection requires an overt act?
Engaging in speech that is constitutionally protected for any citizen isn't innsurection, unless, as the judge pointed out, she is issuing orders to specific people who intend to carry out her orders.
I'm not going to defend her rhetoric, which is idiotic, and I'd like to see her lose her primary election, but there is absolutely no case to be made that any of the statements she made Feb. 4th or before constitutes engaging in an insurrection.
Did you miss the part where the judge said "engaging" in insurrection requires an overt act?
Yes I did, because the judge did not say that. The judge did say this:
To the extent (if any) that an "overt act" may be needed, see id., it would appear that in certain circumstances words can constitute an "overt act," just as words may constitute an "overt act" under the Treason Clause, e.g., Chandler v. United States, 171 F.2d 921, 938 (1st Cir. 1948) (enumerating examples, such as conveying military intelligence to the enemy), or for purposes of conspiracy law, e.g., United States v. Donner, 497 F.2d 184, 192 (7th Cir. 1974) (even "constitutionally protected speech may nevertheless be an overt act in a conspiracy charge").
“ Apparently the judge did indeed limit his consideration to the interval prior to January 6. Major mistake.”
Why? The contention was that she had aided and abetted the 1/6 “insurrection”. Power was peacefully transitioned. It was over. Now maybe there is another insurrection under way that she is involved in, but the FBI is devoting many of its resources to ferret out the miscreants and plotters, even, apparently, going so far as surreptitiously organizing it, and, yet, they have zilch to show for it. If you have proof that she has materially aided and abetted actual attempts to remove the Biden Administration by force and violence, then, sure, bring the evidence forth. But when the claim is that she materially tried to prevent the transfer of power through the 1/6 protests, then anything after that date is irrelevant, and everything she says on the subject is protected 1st Amdt speech.
Power was peacefully transitioned. It was over.
Hayden, it is not over yet. And Greene continues fomenting. I cited a quote above to show it. Since then, she continues the big election lie to raise money. That lie may be constitutionally protected speech. It is nevertheless a violation of her oath, and actively insurrectionist. She has taken an oath to support the Constitution. She disregards the oath and foments insurrection, both previously and now. The 14th Amendment denies that conduct a place on the ballot.
Even commenters here who scorn Greene seem willing to indulge her antics as harmless personal foibles. That is a grave mistake. It is a shame to shirk the duty to suppress that kind of challenge to the Constitution, and to the People's sovereignty, before further damage results. The example of her case might have served to chasten other would-be insurrectionists in government. Instead, they continue their efforts to undermine American constitutionalism.
Does that include people who continue to say Gore won?
rsteinmetz — Given the late date, an argument to put Gore in office looks absurd, right? Crucially, any reasonable claim to a sovereign election decree to put Gore in office is now dead and gone. His hypothetical term in office long-since expired. Notably, Gore conceded that immediately.
So no, it does not apply to people who say now that Gore won. Nor would it apply to anyone out of government who said an election was stolen from Trump. After Trump either conceded, or died, or after the term of office for which he ran had expired, it might not even apply to people in office.
What makes a big election lie a dangerous challenge to the People's sovereignty is existence of a current election result to the contrary. Acknowledge certified election results as the sovereign decrees they actually are, and you readily understand that to claim publicly that someone else was in fact elected is not mere speech, but a denial of the People's power to constitute government, and hence a challenge to it.
Any person who holds public office, or swears an oath to defend the Constitution, undertakes a special duty not to challenge the People's power to control government. The oath-taker swears to protect that power. Under that obligation, to instead flaunt the People's power ought to be understood as a crime akin to treason. At the very least, it is a violation of the oath. To make that easier to understand, it would be helpful if Congress made it explicit, with a law to punish oath breaking by denying a certified election result.
All that, of course, is why the oath language is in the 14th Amendment in the first place—to establish a clear line of divided responsibility, separating those who wield government power on behalf of the People, and thus agree to be constrained, from the others who ARE the People, with collective power to rule at pleasure.
Members of the latter group remain free at all times to say anything at all about politics. Members of the former group have sworn obedience to the most recent election result—and moreover have undertaken a duty to defend zealously the power which decreed that result.
Hope that helps.
So after noon on January 20, 2025, it becomes legal to say that the 2020 election was stolen, but until then, those arguing that, and especially those making that argument in political fundraising, are engaging in the felony of insurrection. Got it.
Seamus, you do not seem even to try to understand.
Before, during, and after January 20, 2020, anyone except those who have sworn an oath to defend the Constitution can say the election was stolen. That is their right under the 1A. More important, it is their power as members of the nation's joint sovereignty. If that is what they think, they can say it, and the nation can thank them for it.
However, anyone who has sworn an oath to defend the Constitution must do otherwise. That oath commits the person swearing it to defend zealously the will of the sovereign People. A certified election result is a sovereign decree, constituting government. With regard to that election, there is no room for ambiguity about the People's will. It is explicit. It has been ratified by the states. It stands on the same footing as the Constitution itself. Just as an official sworn to office may not attempt to overthrow the Bill of Rights, that official may not contest the validity of that election, because the official has sworn an oath not to do that.
The question whether an oath-breaking official commits insurrection is a separate question. There must be an insurrection, and there must be evidence that the oath-breaking official meant to further it. If no such evidence exists, the crime involved is violation of the oath, nothing more. For that, at a minimum, such officials ought to lose any office they are sworn to. I suggest Congress should establish criminal penalties as well, to help the less-responsible among the oath-takers grasp their obligations clearly.
No, their oath is to the Constitution, not the 'sovereign people'. Greene is free to (wrongly) believe that the election was stolen without failing to defend the Constitution - it's a belief that if the election had been conducted/counted 'properly', the outcome would have been different. That belief doesn't run contrary to the constitution at all (which merely says the state legislatures shall be responsible for elections). In fact, to the extent Greene believes the will of the legislatures were subverted, and that was the cause of the election being wrong, in her framework she's defending the constitution.
It is not insurrection to say the election was wrongly decided. It is only insurrection to attempt to change the government by force. The only possible allegation of insurrection is Jan 6th. You would need to prove that it was an insurrection, and that Greene committed overt acts which furthered that insurrection.
(If it was insurrection to say the election was wrongly decided, everyone who said Gore won in 2000 is an insurrectionist, and the fact that it wouldn't make sense to make Gore president now doesn't affect whether or not it would have been insurrection in 2000, or whether those people would then and now be insurrectionists).
Squirrelloid, did you forget that Gore conceded before the vote counts were certified? Do you know of any sworn government officials who thereafter launched fund raising campaigns predicated on restoring Gore to his rightful place in office? Did Gore do that?
What do you even think you are talking about?
Gore himself may have conceded, but some of his supporters still pop up from time to time claiming bush stole the election.
There were a lot of Democrats after 2000 saying Bush stole the election. Some campaigned on it (or at least said so on the campaign trail). Were they committing insurrection?
(What Gore did has little bearing to whether those people were guilty of insurrection).
I'd say no, btw. Just saying an election was stolen is not insurrection.
Why don't you address the point I made, which was addressing the point you made when you said that "Crucially, any reasonable claim to a sovereign election decree to put Gore in office is now dead and gone. His hypothetical term in office long-since expired. Notably, Gore conceded that immediately. So no, it does not apply to people who say now that Gore won."
Or are you now saying that you *weren't* claiming that allegations made by federal office-holders after the expiration of Bush's first term can't fall within the scope of section 3, for the very reason that expiration of that term makes the issue moot?
I did not address your point because the wording of your comment above left me unable to figure out what to say to address the confusion in it.
Seamus, put aside the broader question of insurrection in all its forms. Focus instead on what you consider controversial.
I have not said,"now," that a claim of a stolen election by a sworn office-holder, which is persisted in after the election has been certified, can amount to activity akin to treason (but not treason itself, in the U.S. definition). I have said that right along, for years.
Whether that makes the offending office holder guilty of the different crime of insurrection remains a question. That kind of finding requires further evidence—especially about the existence of an insurrection joined by the office holder, together with others, with some kind of overt act by someone to further the plot.
MTG's publicly provable conduct meets all those standards. She is an insurrectionist not only by the preponderance of the evidence, but apparently beyond a reasonable doubt. The Justice Department will be remiss if it does not charge her and prosecute her, along with many others—apparently including others in congress, if we take MTG's account of her own activities with them at face value.
To what extent that might be true for others, or not, will depend on evidence yet to be disclosed, or in some cases, probably, yet to be discovered. We know enough to justify criminal charges against MTG and a few others. For some, we must withhold that decision until more is known.
If that does not address your question, say more, and I will try to add whatever clarity I can.
"She should be disqualified from the ballot."
I am strongly opposed to having the government pick and choose who is eligible to be a member of the government, for reasons that I hope are obvious. If the voters decide to send someone the powers that be don't like ... too bad. Being able to elect people who the current government doesn't like is the essence of democracy.
If Bernardine Dohrn or Bill Ayers or Kathy Boudin can get elected, they should be able to serve. Heck, Matthew Lyon was elected to the House - by a 2 to 1 margin - while incarcerated. Unlike Greene who, while not evincing much intellect or character, hasn't been convicted of anything.
(You should like Lyon - he was a newspaper publisher serving time for violating the Alien and Sedition Acts by criticizing the president.)
Absaroka, this has nothing to do with government choosing who is eligible (or disqualified). If it did, you would be right in your critique. The requirement against insurrection is not the work of the government, but of the sovereign people. They decide at pleasure what qualifications warrant their gift of office, and what disqualifications forbid it.
" They decide at pleasure what qualifications warrant their gift of office"
1)Right. By having an election. When you tell them 'you can't choose the person you want to represent you, pick someone I approve of instead', they aren't going to be feeling very sovereign. 'The people are sovereign' isn't equivalent to 'Stephen gets to decide everything'.
Alternatively:
2)In this case, the people, in their sovereign majesty, have decided what the qualifications are and, as the judge explains, Ms. Greene meets those qualifications. You don't get to replace the qualifications the people chose with your personal preferences.
Absaroka, this has nothing to do with me.
The 14A sets forth criteria. They make participating in insurrection a standard for exclusion from the ballot. The judge refused to take up the question of insurrection, substituting a red herring invented for the purpose, which the judge termed, "invasion." And then confessing that, the judge rejected any requirement to consider insurrection in a proceeding which could only have been about insurrection.
That prejudiced the outcome in favor of Greene, and made nonsense of the proceeding. I offer no opinion on why the judge did that.
None of that is me, any more than it is you.
"The 14A sets forth criteria."
Which the judge applied. You don't like his view of things, but you don't see it as 'reasonable people can disagree'. The judge didn't do what you wanted, so 'red herring', 'invented for the purpose', 'prejudiced the outcome', 'made nonsense'. Because, after all, it's a given that you are right.
Absaroka, here is the judge:
Whether the Invasion of January 6 amounted to an insurrection is an issue of tremendous importance to all Americans and one that may yet be addressed. However, it is not a question for this Court to answer at this time.
It is mind-boggling to me that a judge considering a case about insurrection could write that. The excuse is nonsense that something about, "invasion," made up by the judge, is sufficient to answer all questions that might be raised while considering the much broader category of insurrection. There is nothing in the 14A about, "invasion." Any notion that it stands in for insurrection is belied by the judge's own forthright avowal that insurrection was not considered.
"It is mind-boggling to me that a judge considering a case about insurrection could write that. The excuse is nonsense that something about, "invasion," made up by the judge, is sufficient to answer all questions that might be raised while considering the much broader category of insurrection."
Sigh.
I invite your attention to this: "...and assuming for these purposes that the Invasion was an insurrection, Challengers have produced insufficient evidence to show ... even assuming, arguendo, that the Invasion was an insurrection, Challengers presented no persuasive evidence Rep. Greene took any action..."
You keep saying "but insurrection!!!". But the judge **assumed there was an insurrection** and even with that assumption the challengers couldn't meet their burden. Your argument is 'damn the facts, give me the result I want!'.
Judges are sometimes going to decide cases differently than you like, just as they sometimes decide 2A cases in ways Brett doesn't like. The appropriate response to that isn't always 'the judge is an incompetent hack who just isn't as smart as I am'.
Once again, a hypothesis of an insurrection organized over a period of months—and possibly still ongoing—cannot be disposed of convincingly by means of a rhetorical substitution which shrinks the scope of consideration to a particular 3 days. Even less so after the judge (how many times must this be repeated before it sinks in) says forthrightly that he has not considered the insurrection itself.
Your attempt to put words in my mouth is your own. If you surmise your paraphrase from my argument, as applied to your own reading of the case, then maybe there is something to your surmise. But it remains yours, not mine. As I said above, to you, "I offer no opinion on why the judge did that." I meant that.
"—and possibly still ongoing—"
Sorry, but unless the challengers put for an accusation of an on-going insurrection, it would be entirely inappropriate for the judge to consider such.
Absaroka, also, you retreat to childishness when you write I assume as a given that I am right. If I did that, I would not lay out at such length my reasoning for you to contest. I offer you that opportunity repeatedly, not that you provide much more in response than subject changes and weak analogies.
Why not try engaging the points I make directly, with your own evidence and reasoning to show that I am wrong? If it turns out I am just assuming I am right, you will shortly prove it substantively, and won't even have to say so. All the bystanders can see you win the point. Wouldn't that be more satisfying for you than schoolyard-level critique?
"Why not try engaging the points I make directly, with your own evidence and reasoning to show that I am wrong?"
Let me repeat:
"I invite your attention to this: "...and assuming for these purposes that the Invasion was an insurrection, Challengers have produced insufficient evidence to show ... even assuming, arguendo, that the Invasion was an insurrection, Challengers presented no persuasive evidence Rep. Greene took any action..."
Nieporent, although you apparently are unclear on the point, the arguments I make here—and often when you find yourself in disagreement—are points of political philosophy or history, with an eye to originalist interpretation. They are not meant as points of modern legal interpretation, except insofar as use of that older context highlights paradoxes and confusions delivered by modern legal interpretations.
Modern lawyers practice a kind of decapitated constitutionalism, from which an active role for the sovereign has been lopped off. That was not the standard practiced at the founding. Instead, the entire structure of government was predicated on the presence and involvement of a continuously active sovereign.
In today's world, a continuous flow of confused legal interpretations descends from misperception of an inherited structure of government, dependent on an active sovereign, but with the sovereignty part forgotten or ignored. In Franklin's famous formulation, "A republic, if you can keep it," the word doing all the work is, "you," a reference to the role of the popular sovereign as an active force in government.
So from time to time, when the subject matter suggests it, I inject a bit of the political philosophy of Franklin, Madison, or James Wilson, to highlight the confusions. Apparently, it never dawns on you that the resulting confusions could be your own, insofar as you practice a legal orthodoxy at odds with its own supposed-but-mistaken bedrock principles. You cannot have government structured around active sovereignty, and then deny its involvement, without making a mess.
Not sure precisely why Absaroka is being called Nieporent.
Because, as is typical, you're not making any points of substance: you've misunderstood the topic at the most basic level, your tedious exegesis depends on axioms that exist solely within your own mind, and you're completely unwilling to reconsider your premises when your errors are pointed out to you.
This should be a macro, to be used to apply to every one of Lathrop's legal posts.
The errors of my premises? The errors of my reasoning? The errors of my evidence? The errors of my experience?
All I remember from you, Noscitur, are disagreements about conclusions, tending mostly toward ipse dixit. I welcome anything you wish to contribute otherwise. But check your note above; if that is an example of what to expect, save your effort.
If Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin are accused of inciting a riot, and they manage to demonstrate to the satisfaction of a judge that whatever they did was not incitement, I don't think the judge is required to go on and consider the further question of whether what they were accused of inciting was actually a "riot" within the meaning of the act.
And they can decide that with their vote. Put the candidates on the ballot and let the 'sovereign people' decide. A court proceeding is not the will of the "sovereign people" (whatever that term means in your head).
Squirrelloid, you are quasi-right about the court proceeding. The court, however, is part of government, and thus subject to constraint by the sovereign, as is every part of government. The sovereign, of course, is constrained by the constitution only insofar as it agrees to be. No court can constrain the sovereign, or enforce the constitution against it.
But Stephen Layhrop is OK with it as long as it is those of the opposing party. Sounds very much like that guy Putin
Oh because he made up an insurrection it’s OK
Steve maybe if you just write a few more paragraphs?
Sounds very much like that guy Putin
And unfortunately like that guy Zelensky. Ukrainian parties that were perceived as too Russian-sympathetic were suspended (such as Opposition Platform – For Life, which condemned in Russian invasion and expelled prominent members who supported the invasion, but was nonetheless considered insufficiently trustworthy).
Unfortunately, normal civil liberties frequently get short shrift in times of war. For one example, consider the German-American Bund in WWII:
"Within a year, every leader of the Bund was interned or jailed as dangerous aliens, and by the end of December 1941, the US Government outlawed the German-American Bund. In 1942, Kuhn’s citizenship was dissolved and he was deported to West Germany in 1945."
I don't know enough about the banned organizations in Ukraine to day to offer an opinion about whether banning them was necessary, but I tend to view them as victims of Putin's invasion rather than of a dictatorial Ukrainian government. Note that they weren't banned even after 2014 - only when a full scale invasion started.
It would be different if they had been banned pre-invasion, but losing the war and letting Russia take over Ukraine seems like a bigger risk to civil liberties than suspending many civil liberties during the war.
" Oh because he made up an insurrection it’s OK "
Deplorable insurrectionists have been charged with and convicted of seditious conspiracy in the wake of Jan. 6, you racist right-wing rube. "Made up" is the childish, silly superstition to which you cling; that insurrection occurred on Jan. 6 is an element of the modern, reality-based world that obsolete clingers just can't abide.
Holy crap let’s do 2016 you dope RESIST!
"MTG was still spouting insurrection on February 4, 2021."
Horse hockey. She was spouting idiocy. But that is not a reason to kept her off the ballot. She should be trounced the old fashioned way.
Nico, she called for overthrow of the election. She called for violence. You are right about the idiocy, but wrong on the question of insurrection.
You may suppose her idiocy so extreme as to render her harmless. The nation cannot afford to apply so relaxed a standard in all such cases. Its standard of enforcement must must strive for uniformity, with some room for leniency. But the question of insurrection is grave enough to suggest a need for rigor first, and selected leniency after reflection.
Based on the evidence presented to the court, this seems like absosmurfly the correct decision.
She's a GQP Trumpist who would deep-throat the business end of a loaded Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle if she thought it would get her votes. Doesn't mean this case had much merit.
Do you mean like VP Harris deep-throated Willie Brown to get her start in politics?
Not happy with the ALJ’s assertion that police officers died defending the Capitol, but otherwise a nice, reasoned decision.
Yea it’s astonishing how folks keep repeating lies.
This is the right result. Being a blood-lusting, small-"t"-treasonous shitposter shouldn't disqualify someone legally from running for office. It should disqualify them socially and politically. Unfortunately, to a large faction (majority?) of the GOP base, loathsome personal qualities, as long as they're occasionally deployed to own the libs, are a feature, not a bug.
Agree.
If those Trumpist morons in GA want her to be their representative, that's OK with me.
But they have no business whining about how they are perceived by others.
I cannot for the life of me comprehend how anyone could take her seriously enough to cast a vote for her.
Because they are not mentally, in word, "rugged".
" I cannot for the life of me comprehend how anyone could take her seriously enough to cast a vote for her. "
You obviously are not familiar with the concentrating levels of ignorance, superstition, bigotry, economic inadequacy, and disaffectedness among the depleted human residue that remains in places like northwestern Georgia after generations on the wrong side of bright flight. When all of the smart, ambitious young people with character depart at high school graduation, never to return, what could any reasonable, educated, informed observer expect?
Plenty of conservatives, Republicans, and a Marjorie Taylor Greene.
Bevis,
There are just too many stupid people in the world
She could have bought and distributed guns, circulated detailed plans of the Capitol building, hired paid assassins, and given the "Go! January 6!" command to a militia she personally organized and trained . . . but as long as the did all this on January 2, not January 3, she'd be fine. At least by this court's reasoning.
Ha ha yea sure that
Nails it!
But, you know, she didn’t. Had she done so you don’t know how the court would have ruled. The court isn’t supposed to consider anything she could have done in your fantasy world.
All she did was run her stupid mouth, mostly after the fact. That’s her special talent.
That's how the amendment is written. Technically speaking, it's difficult to betray your oath before you actually give it.
Did you miss this part of the Fourteenth Amendment: "who, having previously taken an oath."
All the parties agreed that she never took such an oath until Jan. 3. By the express terms of the Fourteenth Amendment, what she did before does not count.
Now can you tell us what "reasoning" you suggest that is different?
As you have it, and as the court would have it, the only Confederate officials who would have been excluded would be the ones who had pre-1861 been members of Congress, or the military.
Read the full amendment. I'll highlight the pieces and professions you missed.
"having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States"
I'm not sure why you've chosen that as a hill to die on. You've overnarrowly described to whom it applies (it's not just congress or the military), but yes, as the court and the text of the constitution would have it, it only applies to people who engaged in insurrection after having taken an applicable oath.
It was not meant to disqualify every southerner who had supported the confederacy. Just the ones who had previously sworn they wouldn't do so.
Yeah. Had she actually done all those things then she could and should be tried and convicted of engaging in an actual insurrection. But that is only one prong of the 14th amendment disqualification, and she wouldn't have met the other.
Well, she'd be liable for a whole host of other crimes - but not disqualified because of that one particular phrase.
It's almost as if laws have specific terms, and if you don't meet the criteria, they don't apply to you.
Well she could be criminally charged for those acts, but not disqualified under the 14th amendment.
You surely can't fault the judge for following the text of the section 3 which is pretty plain:
"who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion".
The court doesn't have to apply any reasoning when the text is so plain.
Adhering to the literal text of the constitution is a tactic of white supremacy.
I think I just won internet bingo today.
Kazinski, there is ambiguity there, which required interpretation it was not given. The ambiguity arises when you consider the possibility of ongoing insurrection. If Greene is engaged in insurrection before taking the oath, and continues engaged in it after taking the oath, then from the moment she takes the oath, she should be disqualified.
The proceedings elided that analysis. The judge refused to consider at all the question of insurrection—even though the proceedings could have been about nothing else.
There was no allegation of an ongoing insurrection.
Ejercito, there was no consideration of any insurrection. That was the problem. See the judge's forthright refusal to come to grips, right in the opinion. Unless the judge was willing to consider insurrection, nobody was going to get in any evidence about when an insurrection may have begun, whether it was ongoing, or whether Greene was part of it.
More generally, setting the hearing aside, there is overwhelming evidence of a lengthy, broadly-organized insurrection attempt, which may still be ongoing. If you think otherwise, by all means start saving up energy to put yourself in a state of denial while that evidence is disclosed a few weeks hence.
So you're saying there exists evidence that you magically know exists about an on-going insurrection. But if it wasn't presented in court, the court has no reason to believe it exists, so... what's your point? As I understand it, the only alleged insurrection in court was Jan 6th.
Squirelloid, the evidence presented in court which the judge dismissed as inadequate was part and parcel of copious other evidence. This the judge found inadequate proof of intent to be violent:
Well, you know, I'll echo the words of many of my colleagues as we were just meeting together in our GOP conference meeting this morning. This is our 1776moment.
With that standing on its own, I do not agree with the judge, because I know conspirators planning violence were using, "1776 moment," to urge violence. But I could concede the judge his point, if that were all the evidence. But it was not. Problem was, the judge ruled out consideration of the other evidence which made the violent intent clear. Had the interval under consideration not been truncated by the Judge, and limited to the so-called January 6, "invasion," that utterance by Greene could have been bolstered by this one, and others:
You can't allow it to just transfer power 'peacefully' like Joe Biden wants, and allow him to become our president. Because he did not win this election. It's being stolen and the evidence is there — MTG, Feb 4, 2021
There is no reasonable doubt that Greene supported violence to prevent Biden from taking office. Even after January 6 she was still at it, apparently to prevent Biden's inauguration. She said so. She was sworn by oath to support Biden's election. She should not be on the ballot.
Dude you’re grasping at straws that aren’t even there.
You have zero evidence that there is an ongoing insurrection. And you have no evidence that she’s ordering or supporting anyone in the furtherance of this non-existent ongoing insurrection. Her expression of an opinion, no matter how stupid and void of evidence it is (sort of like yours!) is 1A protected and not remotely criminal.
He can't even get his facts right. MTG didn't say that on February 4 — as should be obvious from the fact that it speaks in the future tense and Biden had already been inaugurated by that point.
and mic drop?
Nieporent, you are correct on Biden's inauguration, and I should have realized that discrepancy on my own.
When I cited the quote, I had found two sources to assign the date for that utterance to February 4. That may be the date of a Facebook video released by Greene, which was said in sworn testimony to contain that quote, and apparently not contested by Greene, except to say it was being misinterpreted. NPR reported the video was also cited on April 22, at her hearing, which I had not known until now.
Your conjecture about the future tense is apparently misplaced, although not readily accounted for—except maybe as colloquial use of the future tense to suggest an explanatory tone, to describe thinking about a past event. In my experience, that is a routine usage in southern conversation, and maybe elsewhere. Nevertheless, I am speculating.
Can you suppose bevis that an utterance can be at the same time, 1A protected, a violation of an oath, not criminal in itself, but criminal in context of a conspiracy? I think that is accurate, but I'm no lawyer. I will count on Nieporent to correct me if I got it wrong.
Now demonstrate the existence of such an utterance, and show us how the plaintiffs demonstrated it to the court.
The judge is supposed to rule on the basis of evidence and arguments presented, not on the basis of hypothetical evidence and arguments.
And the judge found that there was no evidence presented that she did so.
Come on Stephen. There is no ongoing insurrection. There wasnt even one on January 6th except for US media branding a riot as one.
Well, yeah. Not "fine" in the sense of not facing any criminal liability, but Section 3 clearly wouldn't apply.
You seem to be suggesting that such a conclusion would be wrong. Can you elaborate on how you get there from the text of the amendment.
Right decision, ignorant treasonous anti-Semitic POS though she is.
1. It is unclear according to the Constitution what standard of proof is required. Regardless, the evidence as presented did not demonstrated to any reasonable standard of proof.
2. It is also not clear that anyone other than the House has the standing or the authority to enforce that clause.
Lack of clarity should lead to a finding for the defendant.
It would be perfectly acceptable, however, if a House committee found that MTG had engaged in insurrection and she then lost a motion to remove her in the House. I think then she would not have a leg to stand on, though as she's buoyed by hot air, she would not necessarily fall down thereafter.
"It would be perfectly acceptable..."
Good role model and template for a Republican majority House, eh.
Not exactly. A house motion can't remove her, there are two ways she could be removed, by legislation using the authority granted by Section 5:
"The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."
Or by 2/3 of the House voting to expel her under article 1, section 5:
"and, with the concurrence of two thirds, expel a member."
But a simple majority of the house acting alone can't expel her under the 14th or any other provision of the constitution, which is why they haven't tried.
I suppose if they still had the majority after the election, they could refuse to seat her in the first place, citing section 3 as an excuse. THAT doesn't constitutionally require a super-majority, as "Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members".
I don’t think Congress has the power to expel a member by legislation, because that’s effectively bill of attainder. If the House has a majority but not a 2/3 majority it might be able to impeach, but then they’d need a 2/3 majority in the Senate to remove.
I don’t think the 14th Amendment overrides constitutional provisions, like the bill of attainder clause and specific procedures for removing elected officials, designed to protect the procedural due process rights of individuals and the democratic rights of voters.
The House (or Senate) has the right to refuse to seat a member based on the rules of the respective chamber.
Right, and if they start doing that, they're going to be facing entirely non-metaphorical insurrections. The day they start picking and choosing which of the opposing party's election winners actually get a seat is the day it's time to stop voting and start shooting.
They do have the power to expel a member by legislation, but only for insurrection using section 3 and section 5 of the 14th amendment, but not for any other cause.
And yes the 14th amendment does override other provisions of the constitution, if it's specific enough, and I think sections 3 and 5 are specific enough:
"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress... who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress... to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same...
The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."
Regarding your second point, I can't see anything that would prohibit a state from enforcing the restrictions on candidacy that are laid out in the constitution. The notion that the state couldn't refuse to put a 6-year-old on the ballot for Congress because only the House has the authority to enforce seems ludicrous to me.
was not, not did not.
I can't see myself voting for the Greene woman, unless her opponent was some kind of baby-killer, then I'd hold my nose and vote for her.
Her opponent in the general election will be a Democrat, and unless his or her name is Henry Cuellar, that means you'd have to hold your nose and vote for her.
If you can't base your vote on intolerance, authoritarianism, backwardness, and old-timey superstition, what's the point of being a conservative or Republican?
I'm impressed the judge continually refered to the events as an "Invasion" not an "insurrection" something that, regardless of what various media organizations call the events of January 6, is far from legally established.
I think an important point here is that, while Section 3 can disqualify you from actually holding federal office, the denial of ballot access is grossly abusive anyway, because what it's really doing is restricting who the voters are permitted to vote for.
I'll point out that, at the time the Constitution was adopted, and widely until after the Civil war, "ballot access" wasn't even a thing, because the government wasn't printing ballots, and so had no opportunity to deny people access to them.
Denying people a space on the ballot in order to manipulate who the voters are permitted to vote for is a relatively recent abuse. The right to vote, as an originalist matter, is the right to vote for whoever you damned well please.
" The right to vote, as an originalist matter, is the right to vote for whoever you damned well please. "
A write-in line addresses that point.
Well, yes, it would, though the right would still be substantially burdened. But a fair number of states have outlawed write in votes at this point.
I think you mean that they don't count write in votes. They're not sending anyone to jail for casting a write in vote.
If you're using an electronic voting machine, how are you writing in your vote? Are you scratching it onto the screen with a screwdriver?
Um, what?
Exactly zero law enforcement officers "died defending the Capitol".
One law enforcement officer (that's the singular) died, later and elsewhere, from natural causes that may have been exacerbated by the exertion of defending the Capitol. Which means he possibly died later because he defended the Capitol, but that's not the same thing as "died defending the Capitol".
And the suicides of law enforcement officers associated in some way with the riot are even further removed from "died defending the Capitol".
Also if determination of an "insurrection" is in doubt wouldn't ot be considered moot at this point. We've been at it 1 1/2 years and nobody is charged with insurrection.
As something that wasn't strictly in evidence as part of the case, the judge was as subject to misleading MSM coverage as anybody.
These issues are very fact specific. There is a tendency to associate everyone in political sympathy with a violent act with the actors. One has to check ones natural tendency, in inflamed situations, to disbelieve ones political opponents.
With respect to Stephen Lathrop’s comments, Taylor-Greene was accused of helping plan and facilitate the Jan 6 invasion, specifically. The ALJ properly limited the opinion to what she was actually accused of. Moreover, since having taken an oath of office is an element, the ALJ properly threw out anything she did before having taken the oath.
Stephen may think she should have been accused more broadly, but it is not an ALJ’s job to modify complaints when the evidence doesn’t support what they charge.
The ordinary rules of due process - notice, opportunity to be heard, limitation of evidence to what is relevant to the charges, impartial adjudication - apply even and especially to bad people.
Alice: Arrest him!
More: Why, what has he done?
Margaret: He’s bad!
More: There’s no law against that.
Will Roper: There is! God’s law!
More: Then God can arrest him.
Alice: While you talk he’s gone!
More: And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law!
Will: So now you’d give the Devil benefit of law?
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great raod through the law to get after the Devil?
Will: I’d cut down every law in England to get after the Devil!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned ‘round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country’s planted thick with laws from coast to coast - man’s laws, not God’s - and if you cut them down - and you’re just the man to do it - do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake.
— Robert Bolt, A Man For All Seasons.
More paid for his forebearance with his life. Richard Rich, the man More allowed to leave undisturbed, was the man who gave the perjured testimony at More’s trial that led to More’s conviction and beheading.
The cost of abiding by the law is especially high when one fears power will soon be in the hands of the lawless. Yet so it is.
More didn't actually say any of those things.
The character More in Robert Bolt’s play certainly did. Note the attribution given for the quote.
ReaderY, have you read the complaint against Greene? Before joining the others lecturing me about process, you probably ought to know what evidence was cited in the complaint.
In this judge's fantasy world, "multiple lives were lost, including those of law enforcement officers who died defending the Capitol." In reality, that didn't happen.