The Volokh Conspiracy
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The WSJ Is Worried About The Chief Justice "Turn[ing]" Votes In Dobbs
I'm having flashbacks to NFIB and Bostock. Has there been a leak?
On Tuesday, the Wall Street Journal Editorial Board published a piece titled, "Abortion and the Supreme Court: This is the moment for the Justices to turn the issue over to the voters." The conclusion of the essay is bold. The Editorial Board expressly called on the Supreme Court to overrule Roe.
Far better for the Court to leave the thicket of abortion regulation and return the issue to the states. A political uproar would ensue, but then voters would decide on abortion policy through elections—starting in November. . . . In Dobbs the Court can say that such a profound moral question should be decided by the people, not by nine unelected judges.
I see a shift in the Editorial Board's position. In July 2018--shortly after Justice Kennedy announced his retirement--the WSJ published an editorial titled "The Abortion Scare Campaign: Why Roe v. Wade and same-sex marriage are likely to survive after Kennedy."In no uncertain terms, the WSJ predicted that the nominee--who was most likely to be Justice Kavanaugh--would not overrule Roe:
The liberal line is always that Roe hangs by a judicial thread, and one more conservative Justice will doom it. Yet Roe still stands after nearly five decades. Our guess is that this will be true even if President Trump nominates another Justice Gorsuch. The reason is the power of stare decisis, or precedent, and how conservatives view the role of the Court in supporting the credibility of the law. . . .
A post-Kennedy Court is likely not to overturn Roe and its successors but it will probably uphold more state restrictions. This won't please some social conservatives, but it would put U.S. law close to where American public opinion is—keeping abortion legal but making it rarer than it now is. . . .
No one on Mr. Trump's list of nominees will claim to want to overturn Roe—and not because they are lying. In their caution and deference to precedent, they will be showing proper conservative respect for the law and the reputation of the Court.
In four years, the WSJ has gone from "the post-Kennedy Court will not overrule Roe" to "the post-Kennedy Court should overrule Roe." I am not certain why this change occurred, but I suspect the WSJ can sense which way the political winds are blowing. Abortion has been effectively illegal in Texas since September, and the world hasn't stopped. And at this point, a decision upholding Roe would lead to a massive fracturing of the conservative movement. (I wrote about this potential schism in what turned out to be an influential post.) In any event, I commend the WSJ for this shift in position.
Yet, other parts of the editorial left me concerned. Indeed, while reading the piece, I had flashbacks to NFIB v. Sebelius and Bostock. In both cases, rumors began to swirl that a conservative Justice was going to vote with the left. And, in both cases, there was a sustained public relations campaign on the right to shore up the wavering Justice. And, in neither case did those efforts work. I wrote about the Obamacare leaks in my first book, Unprecedented, and I wrote about potential leaks in Bostock here. Back to the present.
The WSJ editorial on Dobbs begins with a lengthy discussion of a "ferocious lobbying campaign." But there is nothing new here. Really, there is a hodgepodge of agitations from pro-choice groups. We are five months from oral arguments. Why write something now? As I read the first few paragraphs, I thought, okay they are setting up something far more important. Then we get to a section break with three asterisks. The editorial sketches out, at a very high level, what is going on behind the scenes.
All of this [i.e., the "ferocious lobbying campaign"] is aimed at swaying the Justices to step back from overturning Roe and Planned Parenthood v. Casey because the political backlash against the Court will be ferocious. The particular targets are Justices Barrett and Brett Kavanaugh, the two newest Justices.
Judging from the Dec. 1 oral argument in Dobbs, the three liberal Justices would bar the Mississippi law that bans abortion after 15 weeks as a violation of Roe and Casey. Justices Thomas, Neil Gorsuch and Samuel Alito are likely votes to sustain the law and overturn both precedents. Justices Kavanaugh and Barrett seemed, in their questioning, to side with the three conservatives.
Mind you, these are the judges on Trump's list that the WSJ assured us would never, ever vote to overrule Roe. But now we get to the antagonist of the piece:
But Chief Justice John Roberts tried during the oral argument to find a middle way. He appeared to want to sustain the Mississippi law on grounds that it doesn't violate Casey's test of whether there is an "undue burden" on the ability to obtain an abortion.
For reasons discussed on this blog and elsewhere, such a ruling would be pure sophistry. Anyone who joins such an opinion should hide their head in an N95 paper bag. But for the Chief, law no longer matters. Once you swallow the blue pill, and hold that a penalty is a tax, there is no escaping the bottomless pit.
Yet, the WSJ is worried that Roberts may "turn" one of his newest colleagues:
If [Roberts] pulls another Justice to his side, he could write the plurality opinion that controls in a 6-3 decision. If he can't, then Justice Thomas would assign the opinion and the vote could be 5-4. Our guess is that Justice Alito would then get the assignment.
The Justices first declare their votes on a case during their private conference after oral argument, but they can change their mind. That's what the Chief did in the ObamaCare case in 2012, much to the dismay of the other conservatives. He may be trying to turn another Justice now.
Roberts "may" be trying to turn "another" (singular) Justice now? What do you say, WSJ? This seems like very, very specific information. Has there been a leak? And which (singular) colleague is Roberts trying to turn?
The Journal concludes:
We hope [Roberts] doesn't succeed—for the good of the Court and the country. The Chief's middle ground might be explainable with some legal dexterity, but it would prolong the Court's abortion agony. Critics on the left would still lambaste the Court for letting Mississippi's law stand. And states would soon pass more laws with even narrower restrictions that would eventually force the Justices to overturn Roe and Casey or say the precedents stand on solid ground.
. . . .
This is how the American system is supposed to work, as the late Justice Antonin Scalia often wrote. After a series of elections, abortion law will sort itself out democratically. That had started to happen before the Supreme Court intervened in Roe, embittering the abortion debate and damaging the Court.
In Dobbs the Court can say that such a profound moral question should be decided by the people, not by nine unelected judges.
Since Dobbs was argued, I have been waiting for this sort of editorial in the Journal. Indeed, at an event last week, someone asked me about Dobbs. I said something to the effect of, "everything is quiet now, and I haven't seen any evidence of leaks." Now we have evidence. If there are other similar pieces in National Review and related outlets, we can have more faith that knowledge has leaked out.
Perhaps I am over-reacting. I've done it before. But the Bostock and NFIB flashbacks are quite strong now. There is still plenty of time between now and the end of June. Indeed, we are somewhat ahead of schedule. The leaks from NFIB began at the end of May.
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Can you imagine what a mess it would be, if such an important, emotionally charged, medically delicate, exigent procedure was legal in some states but not others?
Not really. Assisted suicide comes to mind.
if such an important, emotionally charged, medically delicate, exigent procedure
Abortion is not medical delicate, nor exigent. It is not an Abdominal Aortic Aneurysm repair, a Myocardial Infection, a stroke. Abortion is a barbaric procedure that should be rare. It should be performed only for saving the life of the woman, even if Judge Kentanji Brown Jackson has no idea what a woman is. The latter shows how politics has decimated our “e pluribus unum”.
There is only one way to avoid an abortion, just like avoiding Type II Diabetes, Heart Disease, Hypertension, Obesity: adopting healthy life choices, otherwise you face the consequences. This isn’t that difficult. Terminating the life of the most defenseless is never justified.
It should be performed only for saving the life of the woman...
When elective abortion gets banned, even this exception you think is reasonable will be a casualty along with it.
Of course, even an otherwise healthy young woman can die due to complications of pregnancy. Why is telling her that she can't avoid that risk until she is in immediate danger acceptable? (with the level of danger decided by lawmakers rather than doctors) Well, I suppose you'll say that she could avoid the risk by not having sex!
Okay, then people never get to change their mind about taking risk? Don't want to go skydiving? Well, you shouldn't have put on the parachute and gotten on the plane! Out you go! *shove* (By the way, skydiving has a far, far lower risk per jump than the maternal mortality rate in the U.S., defined as deaths per live births.) Or, she could use birth control, but maybe not if her employer objects to it being covered on her health insurance or the local pharmacist objects to dispensing it for religious reasons.
Or perhaps she didn't consent to the sex. Well, maybe she shouldn't have led the guy on, dressed all sexy or had any alcohol, or whatnot. Besides, when "it’s legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut the whole thing down."
This simply cannot be argued away. Banning abortion is putting the life of something not even as developed as a newborn puppy ahead of the desires and safety of a human woman. And we kill over a million dogs and cats every year in this country for no other reason than because no one is willing to pay for their continued existence. If your religion tells you that every zygote is sacred, then don't have an abortion. Don't force every woman to take on the risks and burdens of pregnancy to live up to your religious ideas.
Don't force every woman to take on the risks and burdens of pregnancy to live up to your religious ideas.
Protecting life, defending the defenseless, valuing the fetus predate Hippocrates, 460 B.C.. Educate yourself instead of clutching your pearly white talking points
Hippocratic Oath
I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.
The Texas law is misnamed a "fetal heartbeat" bill, because it isn't a fetus at 6 weeks. "Life begins at conception" includes every zygote, include the ~50% or so that never implant in the uterus and thus never had a chance to survive.
And it doesn't whether some people in ancient times viewed abortion as wrong. (A position which was never universally held, anyway.) The point is whether such a view is based on objective facts and principles or religious ideas. Make the case without reference to what people that lived more than 2000 years ago thought or without reference to religious beliefs or not, that's your choice. I'm only going to be persuaded by reason.
Of course, you also don't address my concern in the slightest anyway. Protecting life has to include the life of the woman, or else it's a slogan and not a real principle. Is the life of a zygote/embryo/fetus more valuable than the life of the pregnant woman? Even if it is equal, rather than more important, then why would that be? Why would a life at a stage well before anything resembling conscious thought is possible valued equally with that of a grown woman?
Life begins the moment fertilization begins. Prove me wrong
Fun fact: resident Macrophages are programmed from the yolk sac and fetal liver tissue.
Now go on and babble about medicine, genetics, physiology and/or biochemistry. Give it all you got.
so is a single Sperm not a living being? It (He?) can swim, has a tail, and a Nucleus, Ribosomes, Mitochondria, just like a Rock (see what I did there?) and don't even get me going about the Eggs.....
If Jason is down for a 3way, Im gayme. Same questions apply tho’
"so is a single Sperm not a living being?" Sure it is, but it's not a human being. Yatusabes should have been more specific by saying "An individual Human Being's life begins are fertilization", because we know you pro-aborts are super pedantic.
Life begins the moment fertilization begins. Prove me wrong
What, the sperm and egg cells aren't alive? Your slogan, taken literally, can only mean that fertilization is exactly what its definition says it is. The joining of a sperm and egg. The moral and ethical implications of that process are not determined by the pure scientific facts here.
What, the sperm and egg cells aren't alive?
As many times that I have shot my load on a towel, in a dirty sock or in my husband’s ass, no animal, mineral or vegetable ever came to be. OTOH, if you believe my breeding your ass, man to man, will result in a baby, then I would ask you to douche well, be clean, no screaming, and I never pull out until I say so. By the way, are you hung, muscular and alpha? I ask because i really hate prissy men. And obese men make me limp, so send me an x rated picture of you before we put your “sperm is alive” question to the test. Because i do have standards.
Any other medical questions?
Best,
Welcome to mute. I'm done here.
not sure what a "Pessary" is (asked at CVS and Jug-Dish the Pharmacist shrugged his shoulders) would a "Swift Kick to the Uterus" be OK???
and the Oath of Hippocrates always confused me,
"I will not use the knife, not even, verily, on sufferers from stone, but I will give place to such as are craftsmen therein "
Frank "Fists, do some Harm"
"I will not use the knife, not even, verily, on sufferers from stone, but I will give place to such as are craftsmen therein "
Just means that doctors need to remember they're not surgeons.
Frank "Fists, do some Harm"
Such an amateur. Every gay man knows a small tub of Crisco works just dandy for fisting. Douching helps with warm water.
Can you elaborate? I strongly support broad abortion access, but I'm not sure I see how a range of different legal regimes would be any "messier" than the other variations we consider routine and unremarkable.
You don’t think there won’t be desperate women, many already in at risk pregnancies and facing a natural deadline, traveling great distances to get an abortion in another state?
Only on the second Tuesday of the 3rd week, in the 4th month, in a leap year, on or before the alignment of Aquarius with Jupiter when Hailey’s Comet is proximal to Uranus but not distal to the Sun and whatever other extreme scenario you failed to construct
You proaborts would kill anything that made your life anything you could not control.
you mean like with my Glaucoma Medication? by the Federal Drug Schedule Marriage-Juana-A's Schedule 1, even worse than the awful Fent-a-nol (for years it's been "Fent-a-Nil"("Nil" like those unsufferable Soccer Fans insists on saying instead of "Nothing, Zero") then suddenly the Media finds out and its "Fent-a-Nol".
How about we turn back other controversial cultural conflicts back to the states? State governments can go back to deciding whether to allow people with different skin tones to marry each other. Whether they can be made to use different bathrooms or different water fountains. They can go back to criminalizing the sexual conduct of consenting adults, if those adults are both men.
And why limit it to just controversial cultural issues? Heck, the Supreme Court is already giving states more power back to decide who gets to vote how, when, and where. If states want to insist that doctors can't talk to their patients or the parents of their minor patients about gun safety in the home, why not? Or if states want to ban guns, why not let them? How about we scrap this whole incorporation doctrine nonsense and have the federal courts only oversee the federal government? If a majority of the voters in a state want an authoritarian state government, they should be allowed to have it. As long as we're in the majority, anyway. (Or can gerrymander our way into a majority of the legislative seats in the state government, if we aren't.)
"Heck, the Supreme Court is already giving states more power back to decide who gets to vote how, when, and where."
"Who" gets to vote? I think you may have been confused by raving about "disenfranchisement"; When they use that word, they don't mean "Losing the franchise", they just mean "mild inconvenience in voting," or perhaps "no longer enjoying the benefit of gross racial gerrymandering".
When those "mild inconvenience in voting" rules serve no purpose other than to reduce the turnout of those that are more likely to vote against your side, it does add up to "disenfranchisement".
And racial gerrymandering is bad, but gross partisan gerrymandering is okay, I guess? At least, SCOTUS seems to think so.
Brett's theory of representation is simple.
It's a wonderful thing for some minorities to have guaranteed, even wildly disproportionate, representation to protect them from the "tyranny of the majority" so long as the minority in question is residents of a small state like WY or ND. Other minorities need not apply.
I see a different approach.
If clingers choose to have their way -- 'owning the libs' -- in backward, poorly educated states, other Americans could respond in kind in advanced, accomplished, modern, educated communities.
Outlaw hunting on all public lands, for example, with severe criminal penalties for violation (and bounties for those who alert authorities to violations). Tax pickup trucks aggressively. Rescind special privileges for churches. Criminalize bigoted conduct (and impose severe financial civil penalties for bigoted conduct). Remove accreditation with respect to downscale, nonsense-teaching "educational" institutions. Stop subsidizing dying and obsolete rural communities.
Imposing a 'no free swings' approach on the two-way street of life seems the sensible course for the liberal-libertarian mainstream.
I've got one for you "Reverend"
Stop eating food produced by Dying and Obsolete Rural Communities.
I'll give you the water, given your Blue States Records (see Michigan, Flint) might even speed up your demise (mercifully of course)
Oh, and your Educational Proposal just put every HBCU (ask the guy who shines your shoes, prove me wrong Rev, but you strike me as a "Shoe Shine" type of guy (I'd support severe criminal penalties for those who don't keep a shiny shine) where was I,
oh yeah, you just put every HBCU out of business (they're dying anyway) Agree with your "Bigoted Conduct" proposal, so who's going to prosecute (another Reverend, Jeez, for Men of the Cloth, you guys sure hate alot) "Reverend" Sharpton for his Years of Anti-Semitic, Homo-fobic proposals.
Successful Americans could readily arrange the equipment, employees, and real estate needed to produce any type of food. If every right-wing farmer went on strike tomorrow, it wouldn't take long for investment bankers, industrial food processors, skilled managers, retail chains, and others to make small-scale farmers even more irrelevant to modern society than they are today.
Would clingers be able to stop relying on their betters for medical treatment, scientific research, technological innovation, legal help, education, and anything else involving thinking?
A lot of swing state voters support abortion rights. Overrule Roe and you've just breathed new life into Democratic prospects this November.
Overrule Roe, and it just goes back to the states.
Overrule Brown and school segregation just goes back to the states too.
Brown at least has the 14th and 4th Amendments as a foundation. Roe is constructed on much shakier ground.
Don't get me wrong, unlike many who line up in opposing camps on this issue, I don't particularly care which way it goes; either way it doesn't affect me, or anyone I really know for that matter. It's never going to be an issue that brings me to the polls, so I tend to view it with a certain detached interest. Like coronary bypass, it's a medical procedure and should be treated and regulated as such. The person who has one is the one who will have to live with that guilt for the rest of their life, not me.
I just have always found the legal reasoning behind Roe to be rather convoluted. "Penumbras and Emanations" sounds to me like slick talk for "We can't find it, but really you know what they meant, wink wink."
I agree with Roe's bottom line that a flat ban on abortions is unconstitutional, but I think the court used incredibly convoluted reasoning to get there and there is much in Roe with which I disagree. A far easier route would have been the Ninth Amendment.
Overrule Brown and school segregation just goes back to the states too.
That 14th Amendment thingy waved.
Overrule Roe, and it just goes back to the states.
Exactly how long do you think it will be before the right starts agitating for Congress to pass a national ban?
I mean, if you think it's murder then how can you let it be legal in NY and CA?
You're clearly not up on global trends. Kids under 35 aren't having sex. Millennials & Gen Z aren't dating nor interested in marrying. They can barely tolerate being around people mano a mano. The birth rate has been in free-fall since WWII. Given that obesity, heart disease, Type II Diabetes, and other comorbidities are growing, abortionists will be the first to force women to give birth to live babies so that their offspring can keep Planned Barrenhood flush with their cash. Priorities!
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-low-can-americas-birth-rate-go-before-its-a-problem/
The U.S. fertility rate hit a record low in 2020 — just as it did in 2019, and 2018. Although the COVID-19 pandemic seems to have accelerated this decline, the drop has been underway for years. The total fertility rate — the average number of children a woman is expected to have over her lifetime — now sits at 1.64 children per woman in the U.S. Not only is this the lowest rate recorded since the government began tracking these stats in the 1930s, but it’s well below the so-called “replacement-level fertility” of about 2.1.
Wishful thinking. Hispanics are very conservative on the issue. Dems are already losing Hispanics in droves on other issues.
Regardless of what the what the court says, mid terms will not be about abortion. They will be about inflation, the economy, crime, and Biden's feckless leadership. Republicans will be wearing big t-shirts that read "Biden spent 1.5 trillion on infrastructure, all I got was robbed by inflation."
In fact, 2022 is a worst case scenario for Dems on abortion. Some voters really do care about abortion, but their voices will be drowned out. Republicans will get to claim voters don't care or are more anti-abortion than they really are, because they win, when in fact the overriding concern is the economy and crime.
Except the economy is on a path to recovery -- our jobs situation is great -- and that may not still be an issue in November. And voters who don't get their news from Fox mostly disagree that Biden's leadership has been feckless.
All that said, I think you underestimate the intensity with which suburban women in Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida view this issue. But we'll find out soon enough.
"Except the economy is on a path to recovery"
Provided one ignores the massive inflation problem and assorted food issues caused by Biden's unbelievably inept foreign policy debacles.
"And voters who don't get their news from Fox mostly disagree that Biden's leadership has been feckless."
Polls and reality say otherwise.
He gets his news from CNN+ and Brian Stelter. If only they had the market share that Fox News has enjoyed for years, and this from a guy that does not watch TV or read either online
LMAO.
Last year everyone says inflation was transitory.
And if you think Biden's numbers are bad now, just wait until the back stabbing and finger pointing starts on the Ukraine debacle. Once again, Blankenship is behind the curve. And Austin is more concerned about making sure the military is woke than winning.
I used to think that the "cabinet will 25th amendment Biden" was nothing more than an internet conspiracy. Biden numbers and cognitive problems will get so bad its going to become a real possibility.
"Blinken" not Blankenship
I'm not sure what kind of OAN/QAnon/Mike Lindell news bubble one has to be living in to think of Ukraine as being a "debacle" rather than a massive success handled shockingly and overwhelmingly well by Biden.
(Alternate explanation: Ukraine is a debacle… from the perspective of Russia, but you forgot you were supposed to be pretending to be American.)
We should've done more to help. And now it may be too late. It is probable that Putin will end up swallowing a good chunk of Ukraine. (Maybe Moldova too.)
^this
Pretty sure so far as the American People are concerned, this is not a debacle.
David....How are you defining success vis a vis Ukraine?
The jury is still out because we don't know the ultimate result, but Biden has successfully kept us out of war with the western coalition solid against Russia, all while Russia has been handed significant defeats. Of course, no one can claim success in preventing the carnage Russia has unleashed, but doing so likely would require all-out war.
Josh,
Your jury is out with Biden weaving a so-called "personal" narrative that regime change is needed in Russia. POTUS does not and cannot have openly expressed, personal opinions.
Josh R....you sound a little like Professor Post (the guy I need to collect my Ukraine wager winnings from). 🙂
I agree, the jury is still out. So...what significant 'defeats'? I see Russia successfully entrenching in Donbas, establishing a 60+ mile land bridge from Russia to Sevastopol, and squeezing Ukraine's access to the Black Sea to nothingness (Odessa is next). Moldova is already starting to deal with isolated attacks.
Yeah, Ukraine has managed to kill a bunch of Russian soldiers. How many? Who knows. But thousands for sure. Russia's military capacity has not,/i> yet been materially degraded enough to forestall action against NATO.
"Yeah, Ukraine has managed to kill a bunch of Russian soldiers. How many? Who knows. But thousands for sure. Russia's military capacity has not,/i> yet been materially degraded enough to forestall action against NATO."
I couldn't disagree more with your assessment of Russian military capacity. This war has shown that Russia's conventional forces are a lot closer in quality to Saddam Hussein's military than to Uncle Sam's. If Russia invaded Poland, NATO (read the US) would (absent the threat of nuclear retaliation) be in Moscow within months.
Ridgeway, there is no doubt whatsoever that NATO would 'clean Russia's clock' in a strictly conventional war. I have stated this repeatedly in the past. They are woefully behind us in logistics, and lethality. That said, Russia retains significant capacity to strike the Baltics, or Poland/Hungary/Romania. Degrading Russia's in-theater military capacity by ~20% will probably forestall Russia conventional action against any NATO member, given the armored reinforcements the US sent in the last 6 months. Russia would need to move a lot of troops and equipment around if they wanted to invade a NATO country; movement that we would see. That is why I say ~20% - that percentage means you need to move reinforcements for further action. What do you see militarily that I do not see, Ridgeway?
Josh R posits 'significant defeats' for Russia. I see no defeat, militarily (at this stage). Russia said they would move on Donbas and 'liberate' it. They did. Russia said they would establish a land bridge from Russia to Sevastopol. They did. That was accomplished at substantial human cost, but accomplished nonetheless. It is an open question if Russia goes for the 'knock-out' and takes the remaining Ukrainian coast (Odessa). Regardless, Ukraine is systematically being 'Grozny-ied'; it will not pose a military threat to Russia for the foreseeable future. I do not see a military scenario where Ukraine counter-attacks and invades Russia, do you?
As for POTUS Biden, I am glad he drew some red lines that were clear, and unmistakable. One - No US forces in Ukraine. Two - The US will militarily defend 'every inch' of NATO soil. He was right to draw those lines.
@C_XY
One youge point you only indirectly address is that the Russians have zero ability to achieve tactical or strategic surprise. I am inferring, based on what I have seen, that we are intercepting and reading all their communications more-or-less in real time. That, combined with our satellite and other surveillance, gives NATO extended warning of any impending attack. So a lightning strike into the Baltics, for example, where total Russian control becomes a fait accompli in a matter of days, is not a realistic possibility.
Even at 100% strength, they would fail spectacularly in any attack on NATO. What the Ukraine war has demonstrated is how much of a paper tiger they are. Not only do we see it, but the Russian military must as well. They are probably sh!tting bricks right now that NATO will attack them. I suspect that is what all the nuclear saber-rattling is about.
Ridgeway...Yeah, I agree with you on the inability of Russia to achieve surprise. They have now lost too many troops, vehicles and must resupply for adventurism past Ukraine. We would see it. I am not as confident about the Baltics as you are; Russia still retains the ability to move on them.
More broadly, Russia still maintains a very significant military capacity. And nukes. I do not (and would not) casually dismiss Russia's capabilities. They are achieving their publicly stated military objectives. They are not even remotely 'defeated'. The closest analogue to Ukraine I can find is Hungary 1956; except Hungary was not 'Grozny-ied' like Ukraine is currently.
For now, POTUS Biden is doing well articulating red lines that are clear, and morally unambiguous. That is good.
I am hopeful our policymakers are looking for 'exit ramps' that Russia can avail itself of. It is in Ukraine's interest to stop the 'Groznyfication' of Ukraine. It is in Russia's interest to stop losing Russians. It is in our interest to redeploy EU troops to asia.
I'm no military expert, by a long shot, but in following this thread involving people who are, it seems to me that Russian military capability has been degraded, and that it was not nearly as strong or competent as had been widely imagined.
Regardless, I recommend the thread.
@C_XY
Sure the Russians could "move on" the Baltics, but they would lose badly and in short order.
Of all the strategic miscalculations the Russians have made, the amount by which their invasion of Ukraine has strengthened NATO may be the biggest. If this had never happened, and instead, the Russians had filtered "little green men" into the Baltics like they did with Crimea, and then escalated gradually from there, I am not sure what NATO would have done. I have a sinking feeling that there would have been some stern speeches, and then the Baltics would have been cut loose. That would have been the death knell for NATO.
Now, any incursion into the Baltics or any other NATO country will be like Checkpoint Charlie in 1961. The big difference is that back in 1961, the expectation was that the Russians had the capability to overrun all of Western Europe with relative ease. The strategy was to try to delay them, and then retreat to fortified port areas that could then be reinforced for a counterattack.
Now we know that the Russian logistics chain will choke before they even get to the Fulda Gap. NATO counterattacks would look like Gulf War 3.0.
As an aside, one of the things that makes me nervous is that the Pentagon has been gaming this out in detail since 1946; I really hope they don't succumb to the "I needs to know" syndrome about how good their plans and materiel really are.
Russia lost the battle of Kviv and the rest of western Ukraine. They were supposed to take days to win the capital and install a puppet government.
What battle, Josh R? They surrounded Kiev, took an interminable amount of time doing it, blew a bunch of shit up and withdrew. Not much of a battle. I did read Russia lost a transport plane with hundreds of troops aboard; blown out of the sky. That had to hurt. I am not weeping about it.
For all we know (I have no special knowledge either way), the battle of Kiev could have been an elaborate feint to draw troops away from the land bridge invasion force.
Don't get me wrong. I want Russia to leave Ukraine - all of it - in utter disgrace and defeat. But that will not happen. Russia will keep Donbas, and they'll keep the land bridge.
Watch Odessa, Josh R. If Russia moves on Odessa, then you can be sure that Russia has settled in for the long haul. And Moldova will be next.
When you try to capture a city, get bogged down, and have to retreat and redeploy elsewhere, that is a defeat. It might not be a catastrophic defeat, and you may well be able to recover, but it is still a defeat.
"Yeah, Ukraine has managed to kill a bunch of Russian soldiers. How many? Who knows. But thousands for sure. Russia's military capacity has not,/i> yet been materially degraded enough to forestall action against NATO."
You are almost inconceivably ignorant on this subject.
Russian doctrine calls for 10 tanks per BTG. They've lost (visually confirmed count, mind you) over 530 tanks so far. That's FIFTY THREE full BTG's worth of tanks completely destroyed.
How many total vehicle losses? Approximately 3200.
How many BTGs does Russia have in the entire military? Approximately 120. They can mobilize up to about 168 BTGs. Those have to cover the entire defense of Russia. That means defending against China, the US, Finland, etc.
To say their military hasn't been materially degraded enough to prevent action against NATO is completely asinine.
Don't speak about that of which you know nothing.
Its Boris Johnson, the Baltic States, Czech Republic, and Poland that have driven NATO response, not the poor mad king and Obama's 2nd team in DC.
1) Militarily: Russia failed in its major objective (taking Kyiv and installing a puppet government) and its secondary objective (seizing as much of the country as possible), and is not making much progress towards its tertiary objective (expanding its footprint in the Donbas). Also, Russia's military is being severely degraded.
2) Diplomatically: The entire west is united against Russia, to a degree far greater than I ever thought would happen. Not just united in ineffectual words or symbolic sanctions, but in a broad spectrum legal, economic, and military response.
3) Geopolitically: Other countries are rushing to join NATO and/or the EU, and Ukraine is being fixed even more solidly in the European orbit.
And, of course, there has been no WWIII, which would negate all of the above if it happened.
Ok, I understand your definition of success. Mixed bag.
Re #1: Militarily, Russia retains Donbas and the land bridge. Those are the facts on the ground. Militarily, Ukraine has yet to counterattack into Russia (that we know of). Kiev? A mess. I honestly don't know if Kiev was an elaborate feint, or just a case of, 'let's go blow some shit up and leave'.
Agree re: #2. I too am surprised (esp by Germany)
Agree re: #3
Summing up: The jury is out on #1, and we agree about #2 and #3.
Militarily, Ukraine has yet to counterattack into Russia (that we know of). Kiev? A mess. I honestly don't know if Kiev was an elaborate feint, or just a case of, 'let's go blow some shit up and leave'.
Ukraine doesn't need to counterattack into Russia, though they have blown up some oil storage facilities there. It's not as if Moscow or St. Petersburg are just a few km's from the border.
It is wildly unlikely that the attack on Kiev was a feint, or a case of "blow some shit up and leave." It's the capital. That's a pretty good reason for Russia to treat capturing it as a major objective. They didn't.
Sweden and, especially, Finland joining NATO is a blow to Putin.
"Sweden and, especially, Finland joining NATO is a blow to Putin."
Absolutely. From the Russians' national security perspective, it is borderline catastrophic.
Well, I'd say that differently. NATO is not a threat to Russia's national security. With respect to the Russians' revanchist geopolitical agenda, it's borderline catastrophic.
"I'm not sure what kind of OAN/QAnon/Mike Lindell news bubble one has to be living in to think of Ukraine as being a "debacle" rather than a massive success handled shockingly and overwhelmingly well by Biden."
Odd that Russia did not try this under Trump.
See, Trump had a wildly successful foreign policy. No new wars. Drawing down other wars. Peace agreements.
Biden is an insult to dumpster fires.
Also, I remember when progs thought hating on Russia was bad. Times have changed.
With that childlike correlation is not causation-cum 'foreign policy's upshot ends with the end of the Administration' do we get to blame 9-11 on W?
To anyone with any depth of understanding beyond the snapshot, Trump appeased Russia up and down, weakened Ukraine for his own electoral jollies, and was materially hostile to NATO.
It's not at all odd. "This" has served to strengthen NATO. Trump was trying to weaken NATO (source: former members of Trump's own administration, who said he planned to pull out of the organization if re-elected.) Invading Ukraine before he was reelected would've been counterproductive. Once he was defeated, that consideration was no longer relevant.
Which part? His attacks on Iran? His support for war in Yemen? His failed diplomacy with North Korea?
Putin played Trump like a drum.
Why invade, when Trump would have handed Ukraine over, destroyed NATO, and kissed Putin's ass while doing it?
Speaking of childish attacks. If Putin could have gotten Trump to do all this, why didn't he? He had four years after all.
We are expected to believe Trump was a Russian puppet so Putin waited until the puppet left office to attack.
Makes no sense.
Truth is he waited until many of the same clowns that were in office in 2014 were back.
I think you might want to actually spend some time in exurban PA. I challenge you to find someone, man or woman, who can honestly say their live are better now, or even the same as they were two years ago. People vote their wallets, and they are looking pretty thin right now.
Really, with Covid now versus Covid in 2020?! And the post-Covid recovery?!
Somehow I think you may be letting your wishes author your observations.
Maybe that's how people feel, but it's not in keeping with the numbers.
S_0,
COVID may seem better now but it is ONLY because of the low virulence of Omincron. The US has been derelict in not pushing the development of new vaccines. Those based on the Wuhan strain are poor in preventing infection with Omicron and sub-variants. The "success" in lowering serious illness may be far more due to the much reduced virulence of those variants.
The US has not ben derelict in foundational vaccine development - i.e. figuring out the optimal workflow to make a vaccine come out quickly should it be needed, figuring out new techs to create new vaccines quicker.
Plus I don't think it's clear the odds of a new variant being more deadly versus less so; it's probably not 50-50.
I'm optimistic.
"I'm optimistic."
I am agnostic about that question.
"The US has not ben derelict in foundational vaccine development"
Who said that they were?
But where is the vaccine that is effective against Omicron? Your're defending an illusion.
I was not disagreeing with you (I don't know enough to, frankly), I was pointing out another rout that things are happening.
We may be lucky, we may be good and untested. Hard to say.
Come on, you know better. The gap in hospitalization and death rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated continues to be quite large.
But in any case, I don't see how that's relevant to Sarcastr0's point. Regardless of the reason that the pandemic is less severe, the fact remains that it is.
Honestly I live here. It was rare for me to meet someone what was actually in fear of something with a 0.26% mortality rate.
"may not still be an issue in November"
Keep hope alive!
Fed is going to raise rates and maybe put us into a recession. Inflation may go down a tad but will still be 5+%
K_2,
"Except the economy is on a path to recovery"
On that topic I believe Deutsche Bank more than you.
" Republicans will be wearing big t-shirts that read "Biden spent 1.5 trillion on infrastructure, all I got was robbed by inflation." "
Is so, it would be because Republicans are poorly educated, not very intelligent, and spectacularly gullible.
We have a solid, improving, strong economy -- in much better shape than the Republicans left it when they were removed from office.
"A lot of swing state voters support abortion rights. "
Maybe, but not the full on open abortion we have. They are fine with a limited, European style system.
And so, they will be fine with this.
Win for the GOP!
I support "Choice"/Roe.
Heck, it's resulted in (at least) 50,000,000 Fewer Black Peoples around, which is good for the Environment (and other living things, including Black Peoples)
who killed Malcolm the Xth? Black Peoples
who killed Tupac? Black Peoples.
who killed Nicole Simpson? Ha! Trick Question, Detective Mark Fuhrman, who framed a Black People for the crime....
I don't read the bolded statement as a leak. Supreme Court leaks are for the New York Times.
The reality is that every justice tries to persuade the other justices. Thomas admitted this recently at oral argument, commenting on a plurality opinion, saying he did not get a majority in that opinion.
Roberts probably did lose the majority, I suspect this is a new feature of the court. I doubt that means abortion is banned though. I don't think there will be five votes to allow abortion bans in the first trimester. To overrule Roe they also have to overrule Casey, precedent-on-precedent.
Dobbs will rewrite Casey. The conclusion will be that bans in the first trimester, not ok. After states can do as they like. Probably 5-4, although Roberts may vote with the majority to keep control of the opinion.
Dobbs will rewrite Casey. The conclusion will be that bans in the first trimester, not ok. After states can do as they like. Probably 5-4, although Roberts may vote with the majority to keep control of the opinion.
So, you think that the majority will make something up that reaches as close to their desired end as they think they can get rather than rule based on actual sound legal principles?
Based on your above screed on voting and Loving v. Virginia you are just trolling.
Once again, your unjustified hatred of Chief Justice Roberts clouds your view on an issue.
You misspelled justified.
Roberts couldn't logic his way out of a paper bag.
" Roberts couldn't logic his way out of a paper bag. "
Tips on thinking from gullible, superstitious, bigoted, backward, half-educated right-wingers are always a treat for better (educated, accomplished, modern, reasoning) Americans.
There is a reason the founding fathers wanted unelected judges as the final arbiter of moral decisions.
This is a legal blog, so what I have to say about this is upstream of this blog by at least two removes: my fight is to change hearts and minds on this topic, not the law. You can't fix this with a change to politics. You can't fix this with a different court ruling. Like any weed, you have to pull it out by the roots. Once that happens, the politics and the laws will follow.
Elective abortion is the intentional killing of an innocent, living, unborn child. There is no way to get around what it is.
Yes, there is. It is called reframing. Rejecting your labeling & understanding of the situation. Pregnancy is a process with a baby as the usual result. Preventing an unwanted child, is not killing a baby. Mothers are not slaughtering their babies by the thousands. Please look at the history of mothers in the Catholic Church, both unwed & married with too many children & childbirths. Declaring a fetus to be an unborn or pre-born baby doesn't make it so, except to you. Why do you think your moral judgement should apply to everybody else? Whose pregnancy is it?
Sure, I'll take you on.
"Preventing an unwanted child is not killing a baby."
To "prevent" means to keep something from happening. Abortion does not prevent anything. Abortion is the intentional act of killing after the fact of a pregnancy.
Try again.
just look at Abortion as "Early Euthanasia" you know, like how Universities have "Early Admission" programs.
And if my Mom had allowed Natural Fertility to have it's ways I'd have 20 Sisters/Brothers, who wants that?
And just think, no Aborted Fetus ever flunked out of High School, College, got a DUI, Divorced.
OK, and no Aborted Fetus ever went to high school, college, or got married. See? I wish I'd been Aborted in 1962!
Roberts does not look at law or precedent. He looks at his shadow like the groundhog. And he declares 4 more years of abortion.
But that may not be enough. If Roe stands it will be Barrett and/or Kavanagh that will squish. I predict they'll do it together
You are not as far from the truth as you think lol.
How long do you think conservatives could maintain a reversal of Roe in modern, improving America? Five years? Ten? Fifteen?
Do your damnedest while you can, Republicans. Better Americans should be content to let time, the unrelenting tide of the culture war, the trajectory of progress in America, and predictable demographic trends sift such issues as 'how many Supreme Court justices should there be, and who should become a justice?'
I don't know about your Police work there "Reverend"
Once peoples see how nice it is with umm, lets just say more of "Type A" and less of "Type B".
Just Saying, once you've been to Sweden, Port Au Prince Haiti doesn't look (or smell) too good.
The argument on Robert’s side is judicial minimalism, which derives from and is a variant of standing. The idea is that the Court should not decide, or change the law, any more than is necessary to decide the case before it.
So if Mississippi can get a win by narrowing Roe rather than overturning it, under the priniciple of judicial minimalism it is the court’s duty to narrow Roe rather than overturn it. There is no standing to overturn Roe until a case comes before the court that actually requires overturning Roe to decide the case.
This might not be politically expedient or better for the court’s political reputation. Perhaps politically it may be better to get it over with rather than drag theings out. And it might not be consistent with the current majority’s ideological bent. Some justices might be itching to make their mark by making sweeping pronouncements.
But it is the court’s duty under the constitution to decide only the case or controversy actually before it, and not to make pronouncements not necessary to resolve the case or controversy actually before it.
The argument on Robert's side is "but I don't want to look bad to my liberal friends!" Thats it.
If that's Robert's reasoning, he will vote with the liberal justices, because Robert's "liberal friends" don't want the Court to make any changes to Roe/Casey that further restrict the right to abortion.
"judicial minimalism"
Like Roe was?
By that argument, judges should be able to just shoot murder suspects no fuss no muss without any of this trial nonsense. They didn’t give their victims a fair trial, so why should they get one? Why should wrongdoers get more process than they gave?
That’s not how principled constitutionalism works.
Letting a horrible decision stand because of some misguided allegiance to "judicial minimalism" is not "principled constitutionalism".
To the extent "judicial minimalism" is sound, it has to bind both sides.
If you don't have principles to look to, you can't say what's horrible with any real weight.
My principle here is no killing of innocent life in the womb. That what makes Roe horrible.
It's all question begging.
And Constitution and laws bedamned, I guess.
Bacteria & viruses too? What about unwanted sperm?
here we go...
Unless you are prepared to imprison women who unwittingly cause a miscarriage, your reasoning does not deserve respect.
"I'll only stick to my principles if you stick to them also" is not how principles work.
Well Duh,
the Judges are supposed to shoot murder suspects AFTER the trial.
I mean they can sentence you to Life in Prison with really horrible monsters like KSM, the Unabomber, and Jerry Sandusky, with all the safeguards/appeals/solitary confinement, Death Row Prisoners have among the highest life expectancies of anyone.
RE: Nothing but "the case or controversy actually before it."
As if that were so simple ... There is still a live controversy as to whether the Texas abortion statute as of 1973 was invalidated in its entirety, and whether some parts or applications remain in force.
See the Tex Lege's 2021 statement as to its understanding in SB8:
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:
SECTION 1. This Act shall be known as the Texas Heartbeat
Act.
SECTION 2. The legislature finds that the State of Texas
never repealed, either expressly or by implication, the state
statutes enacted before the ruling in Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113
(1973), that prohibit and criminalize abortion unless the mother's
life is in danger.
Related issues are currently being litigated in the Texas Supreme Court in two defamation cases (in the procedural posture of interlocutory appeals of anti-SLAPP rulings) and in a case involving local government abortion logistical assistance. See Tex. Sup. Ct. Cause Nos. 21-0978 and 21-1039.
https://search.txcourts.gov/Case.aspx?cn=21-1039&coa=cossup
Conflicting court-of-appeals rulings in TCPA appeals below:
Dickson v. Lilith Fund for Reproductive Equity, 2021 WL 3930728 (Tex. App.—Amarillo 2021)
Dickson v. The Afiya Center, --- S.W.3d ----, 2021 WL 4771538 (Tex. App.—Dallas 2021); Dickson v. The Afiya Center, --- S.W.3d ----, 2021 WL 4947193 (Tex. App.—Dallas 2021); Dickson v. The Afiya Center, 2021 WL 3412177 (Tex. App.—Dallas 2021).
Tex. 21-0262; Zimmerman v. City of Austin et al.
Opinion below: Zimmerman v. City of Austin, No. 08-20-00039-CV 620 SW3d 473 (Tex.App.-El Paso, March 17, 2021, pet. filed) https://scholar.google.com/scholar?scidkt=10292218277469014312&as_sdt=2&hl=en
No doubt there will very soon be cases reaching the Supreme Court that involve restrictions on abortion that can’t be squared with Roe even by Chief Justice Roberts’ interpretation. That would be the time to address the issue.
Those who are blind are at least being honest when they say they don’t see any reason in what the other side has to say. Those who merely blind themselves because it’s convenient to do so, not so much.
I’ve chided the court’s liberals when they refused to see reason in conservative positions and then claimed those positions were irrational. But the court’s conservatives, and I should mention many commenters on this blog, do exactly the same thing with positions they find it inconvenient to discuss rationally.
But for the Chief, law no longer matters.
What a disgusting thing for a law professor to say. This is the sort of thing I expect from right wing talk show hosts.
I think Roberts must have run over Josh's dog or something.
Not the worst thing that has happened.
Funny -- that was what I was thinking of when I wrote my comment.
Just substitute son for dog, and repeatedly for accidentally.
Gold, Jerry! Gold!
"disgusting thing"
You should read what lib professors say about Clarence Thomas.
I'm not specifically sure about liberal professors, but when liberals- especially when Scalia was still alive- trashed Thomas for supposedly lacking intelligence or not asking questions in oral argument, I always defended Thomas. Thomas is a brilliant intellect even though I fundamentally disagree with a ton of what he believes.
And the new questioning format has confirmed that yes, he's perfectly capable of asking questions and asks intelligent ones (such as the questions he asked the Texas SG just yesterday). So yes, Justice Thomas got a bad rap from the left.
I think the criticism of Thomas for not asking questions was unfair, and said so, since I think a lot of that is pointless.
How many justices have ever had their views of a case changed by oral argument?
As for "brilliant intellect," OTOH, I think that's a description that's handed out to judges far too freely.
It was unfair with respect to questioning his ability to ask worthwhile questions.
It was fair with respect to wondering why he did not do his job to the best of his ability. That he now asks questions but did not before deserves an explanation (owed to the people who pay him for performing that job) I have not heard.
I don't know. Isn't the questioning a little more orderly now?
Anyway, I don't think his job is to ask questions.
He apparently thinks his job is to ask questions -- now.
Yet he did not do so earlier.
It's not his job. Kirkland is an asshole, but he's not stupid. He's just being dishonest. And yes, the questioning is a lot more orderly now. Justices take turns, and get answers from the advocates, rather than talking over each other and making points for each other. It's infinitely more informative to read the transcripts under the current system than the old one.
You should do less tu quoque.
Saying Roberts is more politician than judge is not "disgusting" but much of what is thrown against Thomas is actually "disgusting".
Sorry if that violates some Latin phrase you learned in college.
Funny you rewrite 'law no longer matters' to 'more politician than judge.'
Why did you feel the need to make that change, I wonder? Maybe because Blackman's language is shameful, and you kinda know it.
Its always mind reading with you.
Roberts left law behind in the Obamacare case.
" What a disgusting thing for a law professor to say. "
South Texas College of Law Houston. Ranked sixth or seventh from the bottom among all American law schools. Just how strong a faculty member do you expect a shambling institution like that to be able to hire?
And at this point, a decision upholding Roe would lead to a massive fracturing of the conservative movement.
Blackman seems to think that should influence the Court.
Not only that, but the conservative movement is massively fractured with now. Trumpism is the biggest challenge that conservatism has faced since the early days of the Civil Rights Movement.
If you ask me, the best political result for conservatives would be a "reinterpretation" of the undue burden analysis that basically permits all regulations of abortion as long as they contain an exception for the health of the mother.
An outright overturning of Roe, while it would be gratifying to those who have fought against it for the past half-century (and would be the legally correct result if we were looking at this in a vacuum), would have so many collateral effects that a narrower victory would be better for conservatives in the short and long run.
"conservative movement is massively fractured with now."
No its not. The anti-Trumpers are a small minority, as are the pro-abortion NE politicians.
Really? So what's the consensus on health of the mother? What about ectopic pregnancies? What about whether the prosecute the woman as well as the doctor?
Pointing left and rationalizing every petty authoritarian nonsense you can come up with doesn't paper over the actual differences within your coalition.
Plus, your 'anti-Trump' formulation is a convenient framing. quietly condoning Trump is not exactly the same as being pro-Trump. And plenty of the GOP both voters and officials are the condoning crowd.
The reason cowardly politicians are cowardly is because their voters are not. Senators want to lead but if they oppose Trump too openly, they won't have followers.
Enough, I'll grant you, but you don't need a large majority of the party to threaten elected officials.
No one is threatening elected officials, the vast majority of GOP voters like and support Trump, so politicians won't challenge those voters. Nothing nefarious.
" the vast majority of GOP voters like and support Trump "
Most Republicans are poorly educated, unaccomplished whites (J.D. Vance described them as "lower-income, lower-education white people . . . ") stuck in our desolate, can't-keep-up backwaters.
They wallow in varying degrees and flavors of bigotry and dream about "good old days" that never existed. They tend to be gullible, superstitious, resentful, and backward.
That those losers see Trump as a solution to their largely self-inflicted problems -- along with street pills, dying industries, lotto tickets, guns, bigotry, tobacco, sketchy disability claims, faith healers, cheap 30-packs, backwater religious schools, energy drinks, and more bigotry -- says plenty about Republicans and Trump, none of it attractive.
As others have suggested, returning abortion to the states means that abortion is not after all a right.
As for this WSJ comment: "No one on Mr. Trump's list of nominees will claim to want to overturn Roe—and not because they are lying."
Wrong. Lying is exactly what they are doing, just as Thomas was lying when he said he didn't think about Roe during his nomination hearing.
Anyone who thought the Court was going to overturn Roe/Casey—particularly in an election year—hasn’t been paying attention the last 50 years.
If I recall correctly, one amicus in Dobbs argued that the SCOTUS could let states decide on the issue of fetal personhood (through state constitution), rather than doing so itself, and protect the pre-viability fetus under the federal constitution (only) to the extent it's personhood is recognized by a state. So, then, the legality of abortion would vary among the several states and people could move to and from their preferred policy environment, rather than the Supreme Court imposing a uniform national policy regime (with an arbitrary ___-week cutoff) or overruling Roe without putting anything else in place that would constitute a compromise of some sort.
This is the question I always wondered about. States can extend constitutional rights beyond their federal counterparts and to people not extended federal constitutional rights.
They can't do that if in the process they violate the liberty rights of a person protected by the 14th Amendment. Under Roe/Casey, a woman has a liberty right to an abortion before fetal viability.
I’ll say again what I’ve said several times before.
The Supreme Court recently affirmed a long line of cases holding that the Bill of Rights doesn’t apply to aliens outside US territory. That is, personhood (at least as the Bill of Rights uses the term) doesn’t apply to well over 90% of the world’s adult human population. Why should fetuses be any different?
Nobody on the Supreme Court is going to hold that the Constitution prohibits killing fetuses any more than they are going to hold that the Constitution outlaws war. And that’s what would happen the Constitution held extraterritorial aliens are persons. War deprives the enemy of life without any process of law at all. That’s what armies are trained to do. That’s what war is about. If you couldn’t deprive foreigners of life without due process of law, you couldn’t have war.
So as far as the constitution is concerned, killing a fetus is no different from killing an enemy soldier in war. Of course, government CAN impose restrictions on war. Congress can decide not to declare it. It can prohibit citizens from raising private armies and doing it themselves. It can prohibit practices it considers barbaric and immoral.
If Roe v. Wade was overruled, abortion would become something similar to killing people in war, Government could prohibit or restrict to limited circustances if it wanted to. But it wouldn’t have to. After all, the Constitution doesn’t prohibit our levying war on others for any reason or no reason or a bad reason. Nothing in the constitution prohibits war on demand, or for that matter lethal dirty tricks like assassinating foreign leaders. It merely doesn’t require it, leaving whether to allow, restrict, or forbid war (or other killings) up to the political branches.
Well, the fetusus at issue in this domestic policy debate and legal discourse are American fetuses, not extraterritorial ones. Other countries obviously have their own national/state/local policy regimes governing abortions on their territory. See the amici briefs of the international/European scholars in Dobbs.
And the Fourteenth Amendment applies to "any person" within the territory in which the U.S. constitution holds sway. The constraint to protect persons is imposed on the several states. So what does that have to do with international war and what status enemies have in it?
The definition of "any person" could be pegged to how each state defines personhood.
"a decision upholding Roe would lead to a massive fracturing of the conservative movement"
If maintaining the status quo would fracture the movement, why hasn't it done so already?
Because we now have 6 supposed conservative votes. Its time for the payoff.
Bob From Ohio...I tend to think ReaderY has this part right. If CJ Roberts writes the opinion, judicial minimalism will very much be a factor. Philosophically, is this actually bad?
I understand the utilitarian argument (Justice Brennan was infamous for this - need to get 5)....you have the votes, use them.
Should we have minimalism (that moves in the right perceived direction) or utilitarianism (go for the knockout with the votes you have) in Dobbs? Or is Dobbs truly the 'last stand'?
"Philosophically, is this actually bad?"
Yes, its why Roe and plenty of bad Warren Court cases are still law.
Say you are upholding Roe but kill Casey and allow states vast latitude in restrictions. That will be satisfactory. Compelling state interest at all stages of pregnancy. But we need and want at least a 90% sized loaf.
Isn't it a lot harder to kill Casey than Roe? I ask only because I recall Casey having a lengthy discussion on precedent in the majority opinion, and how it applies to Roe. It is almost as if that Court anticipated a case like Dobbs coming years later and squelching the arguments proactively.
Casey is an opinion about prudential line-drawing about when to follow precedent. Really generally a useful guide, but also something that can be run over pretty easily if you declare the underlying precedent (i.e. Roe) to be extra wrong.
Why can’t you get your 90% loaf in 2 cases? It’s not like Dobbs is going to be the last abortion case ever. There will probably be a case from Texas challenging its 6-week restriction in a year or two. And Chief Justice Roberts isn’t likely going to be able to even try to square a 6-week restriction with Roe. A case directly challenging Roe is hardly going to take forever.
"Philosophically, is this actually bad?"
Absolutely. The Justices didn't swear an oath to judicial minimalism. They swore a rather different oath. Two of them, actually:
"I, ________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."
and,
"I, _________, do solemnly swear or affirm that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich, and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge and perform all the duties incumbent upon me as _________, under the Constitution. So help me God."
It is neither minimalism nor maximalism they owe fealty to, it's the Constitution itself. If they understand the constitution the mean "A", and rule in the name of minimalism "B", they are foresworn.
Brett, I interpret judicial minimalism as deciding the legal question before them as narrowly as possible. This is a hallmark of CJ Roberts. I think that is perfectly consistent with both oaths above.
Because we now have 6 supposed conservative votes. Its time for the payoff.
Are we ending any pretense that judges are supposed to rule based on law and facts alone and not their ideological, partisan, or personal preferences? Is that what this is?
Its always been a "pretense" as far as I'm concerned.
Judges always bring personal preferences, Supreme Court justices are unique that they are immune to correction except for impeachment which hasn't been used since the failed Chase one except for clearly criminal acts.
Norm-setting
SCOTUS makes the decisional law that the inferior courts and judges have to follow (binding precedent). It's not even a noble lie or noble pretense that the SCOTX makes law. How is decisional law not law, and how could it be otherwise?
Also, some people need to read up on the distinction between factual vs. normative. If the law were definitive - res ipsa loquitur like - we wouldn't need high courts to tell us which "reading" of the text is "correct" and how "the law" is to be given effect in different applied settings and fact scenarios. A computer program could spit out all the judicial decisions.
" Because we now have 6 supposed conservative votes. Its time for the payoff. "
Remember that thought as conservatives continue to fade in the culture war and the liberal-libertarian mainstream considers whether to enlarge the Supreme Court -- and the Union, and the House of Representatives (with it, the Electoral College).
I think Prof. Blackman is right on this one. Conservatives have for years said, "Vote for us and we'll appoint justices who will overturn Roe." And yet for years the goal hasn't been achieved; every challenge to it has fallen short. There have been some pro-life victories and some setbacks, but at the end of the day, Roe has stood. Conservative politicians have blamed it on a few bad choices by GOP presidents — Kennedy, Souter, especially — and promised that they'd more carefully vet their nominees if only pro-life voters would give them another chance. But if after all this time, with 6 GOP appointees from the litmus test era on the court, they still don't get what they want, they're going to wonder why they've been doing what they've been doing, politically speaking.
Am I the only one getting the Irony of a Surpreme Judge being selected because she has a Vagina, who supports terminating XX Feti, many of whom are selected for termination, BECAUSE they have a Vagina. (I know, the Lesbos get their revenge on the XY FETI, being aborted's the ultimate "Cock Block".
Which is such a waste of a perfectly good Vagina (hate wasting a Perfectly good Vagina), I remember my Holocaust surviving grandmother telling me to be grateful, because little kids in Eastern Europe didn't have enough Vaginas...
Frank "always can use a spare Vagina"
Frank, you are the reader this blog wants and deserves.
Thank you.
"Abortion has been effectively illegal in Texas since September, and the world hasn't stopped."
You are a sick sick man. Anyone who has read me here knows I am WAY not a lawyer. But letting Texas SB8 stand during this interim before Dobbs comes before the court. Making abortion in Texas illegal. And inviting & supporting similar legislation throughout the country, is not how that is supposed to happen. Right now, Roe v Wade & Casey are supposedly the Law of the Land. SB8 was a very aggressive challenge to the provisions in Casey. With the cute vigilante enforcement provision (which you called Brilliant) to jack with how it comes into the courts. Texas all but shot the Court the finger & mooned them. And the "conservatives" on the Court gave then a thumbs-up & an OK sign. Owning the Libs & pissing off progressives shouldn't be part of the Court's priorities. And it is a very long-standing precedent not to drastically alter what is in place with no deliberation or decision. Beat me up if I'm wrong about that. But I have seen that stated fairly often over a wide range of issues. There are profound personal issues about life, God, spirit, & willingness around a woman's pregnancy. There is the if & when it is a baby issue. For which there are many opinions, & justifications with facts of various kinds. Only one person's opinion matters. The pregnant woman. A woman's body & biology belong to her. And the arrogant stupidity of trying to bring every conception to full term & birth by force of law is beyond astounding.
"A woman's body & biology belong to her."
Ahh So Grasshopper, but what about the Woman's Body inside another Woman's Body Hmmmm?????? What if it was necessary to kill, sorry, I mean "Terminate" the larger Woman to protect the Life of the Smaller???
Frank "Turtles all the way"
Can we be honest here for even a moment? Abortion isn't illegal in Texas. It's restricted.
It's still legal if you test for a fetal heartbeat, and don't find one.
" Sec. 171.204. PROHIBITED ABORTION OF UNBORN CHILD WITH
DETECTABLE FETAL HEARTBEAT; EFFECT. (a) Except as provided by Section 171.205, a physician may not knowingly perform or induce an abortion on a pregnant woman if the physician detected a fetal heartbeat for the unborn child as required by Section 171.203 or failed to perform a test to detect a fetal heartbeat.
(b) A physician does not violate this section if the physician performed a test for a fetal heartbeat as required by Section 171.203 and did not detect a fetal heartbeat.
Sec. 171.205. EXCEPTION FOR MEDICAL EMERGENCY; RECORDS.
(a) Sections 171.203 and 171.204 do not apply if a physician believes a medical emergency exists that prevents compliance with this subchapter."
It's right there in the law, there are circumstances under which abortion is legal in Texas. Just not as many (ALL!) as pro-choicers would prefer.
" Abortion has been effectively illegal in Texas since September, and the world hasn't stopped. "
Says the grown man who becomes flustered whenever a superstition-based claim doesn't receive the snowflakey treatment a gullible clinger figures (certain) fairy tales deserve.
Do your damnedest while you still can, clingers.
Then, the reckoning will be imposed by your betters.
On just the practical side alone, abortion is a terrible practice for the country. The US birthrate is well below what is needed to keep our population at its current level. We need a bit more than 2,000 births per 1,000 women to maintain the population. This rate has been declining for decades, and by 2020 it has fallen to just 1,600 births/1,000. Our population is in a state of decline, not growing, as was predicted in the 70s.
In 2019, over 630,000 abortions were performed in the US, about 1 abortion for every 10 births. Abortion alone is thus contributing to 10% of our population decline.
And what is the economic impact of 630,000 future taxpayers who won't be alive to pay for government services? The average taxpayer pays $480,407 over a lifetime. Every year, then, we could be throwing something like 480K taxpayers @ $630K taxes = $302 trillion in lifetime tax revenues away.
To say nothing of the unbelievably vast waste of human potentiality this also represents. Tax revenues just barely scratch the surface of what each of us has to give to one another.
Abortion is a great evil, a vast, yawning chasm of death that attacks people who are at the most innocent and most vulnerable time in their lives. To be in the womb in the US today is to be under a death threat that may fall at any moment, without explanation, without defense, without trial or reason or any recourse.
Did you predict a leak? Wow, way to call it!
So did WSJ have the opinion last week and sat on it? If leaker first gave it to WSJ (or, for example, NYP) I'd use that as a heuristic to presume a right-leaning leaker.