The Volokh Conspiracy
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Prof. Michael Dorf (Cornell) on Florida's Repeal of Disney's Special Government District
I put up some tentative thoughts on the subject Friday, and Prof. Dorf (DorfOnLaw) did as well today. He leans in favor of concluding that the repeal is unconstitutional (because it is in retaliation for Disney's political activity), but agrees that this is a difficult question. If you're interested in the controversy, you should definitely check out Prof. Dorf's post; here's an excerpt, responding to my argument that the retaliation here is not just against Disney as corporation, but as Disney operating a local government:
[I]n some respects Disney is a local government. So let's try to construct an analogy that's a bit different from the ones Professor Volokh gives—in which government officials lose their special privileges (like a member of Congress losing the chairmanship of a committee) in response to political statements or actions out of step with leadership.
Consider Bridgegate. The Democratic mayor of a municipality did not support the state's Republican governor's re-election bid; in response, people working for the governor retaliated against the municipality. Let's assume that the mayor speaks for the municipality. After all, he was elected. And he clearly exercises political power over the municipality—probably more local government authority than Disney has. Even so, when the governor's staff punished the municipality, it seems that they were punishing it for speech unrelated to the political power that the mayor and municipality exercise.
But wait. What about Professor Volokh's second observation? In the actual Bridgegate, the retaliation took the form of needlessly creating a traffic jam and endangering public safety; in that sense the governor's staff punished Fort Lee by making the municipality worse off than other New Jersey municipalities. Might the case look different if instead the governor's staff had retaliated by withdrawing some special benefit that Fort Lee had previously enjoyed?
Maybe, but I'm not so sure. That view sounds a bit too much like Holmes's no-right-to-be-a-policeman. We can think of a government job—even a low-ranking one—as a "special" benefit in the sense that most people aren't employed by the government. The relevant question for determining whether the loss of a benefit for political speech implicates the First Amendment strikes me as the one that the Court asks in the employee speech cases: does the government have an interest in controlling employees' speech that goes beyond its interest in controlling the general public's speech?
Where the speech relates to the official duties, the answer will generally be yes. And with respect to political appointees, the job is inherently political, so patronage of some sort is inevitable. But where the speech of an individual, local government, or corporation with some special governmental authority is on a matter wholly unrelated to the exercise of the governmental authority that individual, locality, or corporation possesses, the interest in retaliating in response is no different from the (nonexistent) interest in retaliating against ordinary citizens for speaking out on matters of public concern.
I also thought I'd add something that was sent to me and Prof. Dorf by an extremely knowledgeable appellate lawyer:
[Prof. Dorf writes:]
Where the speech relates to the official duties, the answer will generally be yes. And with respect to political appointees, the job is inherently political, so patronage of some sort is inevitable. But where the speech of an individual, local government, or corporation with some special governmental authority is on a matter wholly unrelated to the exercise of the governmental authority that individual, locality, or corporation possesses, the interest in retaliating in response is no different from the (nonexistent) interest in retaliating against ordinary citizens for speaking out on matters of public concern.
[But f]or inherently political appointees, even speech that is "wholly unrelated to the exercise of the governmental authority" can be the basis for removal. And the head of a special tax district seems like an inherently political appointee (or a high-level policymaker, to use the terminology from the caselaw), since it directly exercises sovereign power and likely has at least as much, if not more, policymaking discretion within its sphere than most officials exempt from Rutan/Pickering [the Supreme Court cases that generally limit the government's power to discriminate against most employees, at least lower-level ones, based on their speech or political affiliation].
Put differently, to use your Bridgegate hypo, if in NJ, the Governor appointed the mayor of Fort Lee and had power to fire him but otherwise had no control over his actions, isn't it completely obvious that the Governor could have fired the mayor for not supporting him, even though supporting the governor was wholly unrelated to the mayor's powers in Fort Lee? …
[T]his seems like one of the areas where the greater really does include the lesser. If it is consistent with the 1A for state law to permit the NJ governor to fire the Fort Lee mayor based on his speech, then it's hard to see why the 1A should care if the NJ governor merely limits the powers of the Fort Lee mayor (or if the governor violated state law in so doing). From the perspective of the 1A, firing the Fort Lee mayor will chill his speech far more than curtailing his powers—although the lesser sanction may hurt the public more than just replacing the mayor, that's not a 1A speech interest. And especially given all that, it does seem to me that disestablishing a special jurisdictional district is the equivalent of firing the district ….
For the record, I might agree with [Prof. Dorf] in the context of the federal govt retaliating against a state based on the speech of the state or its officials. But I don't think any such principle should extend to a state's regulation of local subjurisdictions/offices that exist only at the state's sufferance.
Prof. Dorf, in the exchange with the lawyer, added:
I very much agree that the high-level policymakers line of cases provides the best grounds for the conclusion that the withdrawal here would be valid, but for the reasons that both Eugene and I identify, I also think that there are enough disanalogies to make the question an open one….
I do think there is a potential 1A problem with punishing a jurisdiction (including potentially withdrawing a special benefit) in retaliation for a government official's speech, even if the official could be dismissed from the position. My reasons are related to the reasons I gave for thinking there could be a 1A violation with the repeal of SALT deductibility in the column I linked in the blog post. Again, I recognize various countervailing factors. My main contention is that the question is open.
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No private business should enjoy the privileges that Disney bought with their paid for politicians.
Regardless of why it occurred it has passed the Florida Legislature by a legal vote and was signed into law. If the Federal government intervenes in state tax matters its going to be a real fun show. Why would the Florida state court attempt to trump the legislature?
I'd welcome Biden or more accurately one of handlers to stick his jowls into this one. Lets see how much lower his poll numbers can get.
Thank goodness you managed to stick in that conservative conspiratorial shibboleth.
I'd have almost had to agree with your post!
You figure bigotry in general -- and Ron DeSantis' Deep South, Trumpy brand of bigotry in particular -- is the long-sought fuel that finally enables the Republicans to diminish the tide of the culture war, pull even with the liberal-libertarian mainstream, and then reverse the half-century tide of the culture war in modern America?
I am skeptical. I blame my education and character.
It was a fraud from the outset, so who cares it's state power being used to target based on speech!
Good lord. I'm not generally for counterfactuals, but I'm absolutely sure you would have been FINE with this were it not for DeSantis deciding this was the asshole hill he'd use to climb to the Presidency.
And don’t discount how Demings in Orlando defied DeathSantis and mandated masks and Orange County has the second lowest death rate in Florida after the Keys which could restrict travel in order to mitigate spread. So Demings provided evidence that masking works and that DeathSantis killed more Americans than Osama Bin Laden.
Congratulations on ignoring the facts in favor of partisan nonsense!
I do not see the problem.
The FL state legislature voted the districts into existence in 1967, some 55 years ago. The law creating the districts did not say they would be special districts in perpetuity and never change and never be dissolved.
The FL legislature voted to dissolve the districts. They have the authority to do so. In 55 years, a lot has changed.
Now, do I think it is ever a good idea for a government (local, state, federal) to retaliate against a private business for questioning legislative actions? No, I do not. Because the wheel will turn and the other guys will do the same, or worse. It becomes a race to the bottom.
I just don't see the leg to stand on here. Doesn't state law decide this issue?
Dorf says that where there is no government interest in regulating the speech, taking away a benefit in retaliation for said speech implicates the First Amendment, even if the benefit can otherwise be legally removed.
That's a new one on me, but it makes sense.
But that gets into a very murky area. The same action that is perfectly Constitutional for Motivation A is unconstitutional for Motivation B. First of all, whose motivation do you look at -- each of the legislators who voted for it? The governor who signed it? Both? What if some thought, Disney's 55-year-old deal is bad policy, and here is an opportunity to get rid of it?
Second, as Judge Kozinski wrote, politicians lie. (Yeah, I know, shocking.) A politician might say something like, "We enacted a Muslim ban" just to look like he kept a campaign promise, when in fact no such thing was passed.
Third, you are opening the door to partisan judgeing of the worst kind. The judge can completely ignore what the governmental authority did, and just try to read the minds of the enactors. The president who appointed His Honor had pure motives when he ordered the same thing, but his successor from the other party is a bigoted cad whose motives are Constitutionally defective.
You really think the inquiry in this case is murky? It's been anything but. Retaliation or not is a quite common inquiry courts have been making for quite some time without an issue.
You can throw all the chaff you want 'what about every legislator; what if DeSantis was lying? What if judges start picking and choosing thair findings based on party?'
The facts are slam-dunk for retaliation based on speech. I don't know the law, but the facts are quite clear what this is.
So I'm open to legal analysis, but your parade of horribles is in defiance of the facts, and the history of retaliation law.
It may be clear here, but in other cases it is not. The rule of law has to be the same for every case, and it would be bad policy to allow this kind of judicial review for the reasons I have indicated.
The retaliation you are talking about is in employment cases, where the actors and dynamics are totally different.
So then make it a clear and convincing standard.
If you are worried about a thicket, but this case isn't in the thicket, then cut around the thicket.
Isn't this plenary power?
Exactly what are the constitutional limits placed on the Florida Legislature. Do any of those limits apply to passing legislation that is well within said Constitution.
A President can pardon a convict. No matter what. No matter the reasons. There is no recourse.
The limits on the state legislature include the First Amendment which has been incorporated as to the states via the Fourteenth.
The state also passed a law in the not-so-distant past that sets out how such a special district could be dissolved, under what general circumstances, and the responsibilities of the various layers of state and local government after the dissolution. Obviously, this is a self-imposed limit but they didn't bother to overturn that law prior to relaliating against Disney.
Mixed motive cases are common, occurring most often in the context of an adverse job action. Mt. Healthy Board of Education v. Doyle sets forth the framework for resolving a plaintiff's claim.
Except you only actually know what the governor said. You don't know what the legislators were thinking. You are only guessing that because they voted for the bill, they must have been thinking the same thing the governor was thinking. You also have to go beyond the facts of this particular case. Even if it were true that the facts here are indisputable, there are many instances when it is difficult, if not impossible to pinpoint the motive. In such cases, allowing judges to invalidate laws based on their determination of the motives of the relevant legislative or executive branch actors truly turn the system upside-down and allows judges to invalidate laws at their whim. Let's not forget that judges can be as political, vindictive, deceitful and stupid as others. But where judges are appointed for life, as is true for federal judges, they can carry out their bad-faith acts without accountability. At least legislators and governors have to run for office.
As noted above, (and by me) employment law does this all the time.
There are plenty of ways to find evidence of a motive. Saying 'this is my motive' is a pretty good one.
Or redistricting cases, where race cannot be used but political party can. The one who drew up the map is the one that matters, not the legislature that signed off.
Judges can be petty is not an excuse for other politicians to be petty.
There are some govermental actions, otherwise lawful, that cannot be undertaken to retaliate for the exercise of First Amendment rights.
There is a difference between lawful, and exercising plenary power.
iowatwo — The stronger the right-wing case is to justify what it did to Disney, the greater the need becomes for Disney to pull up stakes and get out of Florida. It can't live with a situation where a political beating like that one remains fully justifiable.
Right wingers are delighted because they think their side has owned the libs against Disney—made a loser out of Disney. If instead Disney decides to get out, and leaves Florida holding the bag in Orlando, which side looks like it won, which side looks like it lost?
Assume that happens. Will DeSantis be campaigning for president on that record? No. He won't be campaigning for president at all. He will be a laughingstock.
Adversaries who put power to beat them into the discretion of their opponents are not smart. Don't do it unless you don't mind the risk of looking stupid.
Iowatwo,
What is the basis of your continuing claim that this is an exercise of plenary power by Florida?
The First Amendment applies to state legislative acts. What cases, constitutional provision, or other law are you relying upon to conclude that revoking the special district is an act of plenary power not subject to the ordinary limits on the Florida legislature's power (which includes the First Amendment).
I mean, you accept that Florida couldn't make a special Catholics-only district? At which point, you accept the First Amendment applies and your plenary power gambit fails.
I mean, you accept that Florida couldn't make a special Catholics-only district?
Your analogy needs to play all the way out.
The Florida Legislature in fact did separate out Catholics for unique consideration.
Now the Florida Legislature is passing a law, eliminating that unique consideration. Treating Catholics like all other churches.
It seems that the special district would never have been allowed under free speech standards.
Could the President of the United States go to a federal Prison, and pardon only the White criminals? I see no recourse provided by the constitution. Even though it would violate a slew of laws.
This is the exact issue with the section 230 blabber. You big Internet companies aren't doing enough deal with harrassment, so we will massively hurt you financially by removing immunity from lawsuits.
Krayt, why would anyone conclude that a move to repeal Section 230 without condition, was undertaken with any coercive motive at all? That is what I advocate. And far from any attempt to coerce, I do it only to make the case that press freedom, the public life of the nation, the case against government censorship, and the interests of individuals will all be better served if it happens.
Section 230 was passed to help get the internet up and running with various services. There wasn't much of an inkling back then that it would lead to hundreds of thousands of dead Americans through the spread of misinformation or an attempted coup or any of the other things Facebook and Twitter's immunity from responsibility have bought us. Unintended consequences are a good enough reason to ditch 230 all by themselves.
But if it makes you feel any better, now that the billionaire libertarian joker has bought Twitter and there's a chance Trump will reemerge in time to really mess up our next two sets of national elections, I'm sure a significant number of Republican politicians are going to forget about their section 230 objections.
...and a significant number of Democrats will discover their own objections to 230 in the process...
I agree. I don't like the idea of this sort of retaliation generally. Although, one could make the case that when it constitutes speaking truth to powerful megacorps, and the "retaliation" only results in a more level playing field through the revocation of special privileges, it's just the sort of pursuit of justice that government should be doing.
But what is even less attractive is the federal judiciary assuming control of deciding what state and local governments can or can't do.
Darn that pesky Constitution eh?
You're against retaliation "generally" unless it's your favorite people doing it.
Flimsy doesn't even being to describe your moral compass.
Incoherent.
As far as the Constitution, I lean toward preferring the original First Amendment, that we had for ~150 years, over the newer version.
If what I wrote was incoherent to you, then you should probably get your head examined, or pick up a dictionary and learn a thing or two.
The First Amendment that restrained only Congress, and not the states?
Why not, the first word is "Congress". You can't say the text supports any other conclusion.
If the Amendments ended at 1, you'd be right. But there are other Amendments at work here.
No amendment changed it. Just a bunch of activist judges.
Incorporation is not activist judges. Not that you care about the actual underpinning. Jurisprudence isn't really your thing; you're more will to power.
The First Amendment that allowed the feds to imprison anti-draft leafleters?
Speaking truth via using state power for vengeeance?
I don't know what speech means in your world...
the federal judiciary assuming control of deciding what state and local governments can or can't do.
So the 14A is a thing that exists, and was created exactly to do that.
That begs the question. The 14th Amendment bars unequal treatement of citizens, mainly based on race. You know, like having separate public schools for blacks, and funding them so they are inferior to those for whites. That kind of thing can be determined without focusing solely on motivation.
No, actually, bringing up affirmative action is off topic and a distraction.
It begs no question at all.
Who is talking about affirmative action? I am talking about Jim Crow. Which by any objective measure, was designed and implemented to keep blacks in the South inferior in every way possible. Without need to examine motivations.
I mean, that's just Plessy logic, no?
I have no idea what you are saying. This has nothing to do with Plessy. (Although it is my view that Plessy should have been overturned because, in practice, separate but equal was always a sham.)
The 14th Amendment generally forbids unequal treatment. That is something you can measure by objective standards. The notion that the very same law violates or does not violate the 14th Amendment based solely on the subjective motivation of the Legislature would have seemed novel, if not bizarre, to those who passed the 14th Amendment.
Not affirmative action, not Plessy logic.
The people who passed the 14th amendment only intended to constitutionalize the 1866 Civil Rights Act so that a future Congress couldn't repeal it.
Interestingly, another constitutional amendment was considered in 1875 to apply the First Amendment to the states. It wasn't adopted, obviously.
So you're against incorporation. OK, that's about your level of crazy.
But even your pinched 14A is 'the federal judiciary assuming control of deciding what state and local governments can or can't do.'
Bored Lawyer,
Think harder. The 14th Amendment protects plenty of things that require some examination of motive. And you're just wrong when you imply (probably unintentionally) that if separate schools for black students and white students were equally funded all would be fine. That's definitely not ok under the 14th Amendment. You appear to know it, so that makes it weird you used that example.
And your wiggle word gives away the game: "without focusing solely on motivation". Yeah, but once you admit, as you must, that motivation is a relevant factor in almost every 14th unequal treatment case, what are you left with? Nothing.
(See, e.g., disparate impact analysis under statutes enacted to guarantee the rights secured in the 14th and it is kind of different from the usual analysis because, unlike the ordinary case where direct consideration of motive is at issue, you can rely on objective facts to infer motive).
The problem you have is that the exact same policy (or materially the same) is Constitutional or not depending solely on the perceived motivation of the persons involved. You had this with the Muslim ban -- the Obama Administration did something very similar to what Trump did, yet many argued that the one was Constitutional and the other not, because Trump said (in his usual lying way) that they enacted a Muslim ban, when they did no such thing.
Now let's say that this law is struck down by some district judge. So then some Florida legislator says, you know, Disney's arrangment was bad policy, and it is unfair to its competitors in Orlando, so let's repeal it and have Disney operate on the same footing as Universal Studios does.
Is the law now magically Constitutional?
Do you see how it erodes public confidence in the judiciary to say the same policy enacted by one administration is Constitutional, but the other is not?
(I was not implying that separate but equal is Constitutional. I know what Brown v. Bd of Education says. My pet theory is that it was the right decision for the wrong reason. Plessy as implemented was an utter sham.
What has never been satisfactorily explained is why separate but equal is perfectly legal in, for example, men and women's bathrooms. Separate bathrooms by race is patently illegal, while separate bathrooms by sex remained the norm until very recently. The real reason, I believe, is that everyone recognize that the former was meant to keep blacks inferior, while the latter is simply an impementation of modesty and safety, that women in fact generally prefer.)
"state power for vengeeance?"
One person's "vengeance" is another's sound public policy. Can you point to a time when things were any different?
"So the 14A is a thing that exists, and was created exactly to do that."
I don't agree that the 14A was created to do that. That part was made up 70 years later.
One person's "vengeance" is another's sound public policy.
Nope. This is just not true. I'm quite happy saying policies targeting specific individuals or corporations for vengeance is bad policy.
Well, here the benefit was likewise "targeted" to Disney. No other company got the same sweetheart deal.
That's the irony here. Disney now is on a level playing field with its competitors, such as Universal Studios and Sea World, who both operated in or near Orlando.
See sports teams, casinos etc.
Bespoke benefits to a specific big business are not a super special thing, quit spinning like it is.
Can you point to a situation where a competing business has to operate on a disadvantaged footing. Casino A gets a sweetheart tax break, Casino B is told, tough luck, pay the normal rate?
Any corporation that is encouraged to open up a factor in a state by some sweetheart property tax breaks that similarly situated corporations already in that state don't qualify for. Auto manufacturers get these sorts of deals fairly often, for example.
I'm thinking apples and oranges here. The Mayor of Fort Lee is an elected official. If enough voters don't like his political stance, he can be removed from office either by recall or at the next election. The "special zone" created for Disney, has no residents and because of that no voters. The person or persons governing that area are not elected, yet hold the same authority as an elected official.
Maybe I missed it, but has anybody smarter than me addressed the holding in US v O'Brien,
"It is a familiar principle of constitutional law that this Court will not strike down an otherwise constitutional statute on the basis of an alleged illicit legislative motive."
That would seem to cut against the claim that this law is unconstitutional.
Blog post coming up soon on this very issue -- it turns out to be more complicated, I think, than the language of O'Brien suggests.
Cool. Looking forward to it.
I'm kind of curious myself.
The various Trump cases certainly undermined that seemingly common sense principle as to executive actions.
? That's exactly what they said about the Muslim ban.
You're right. I forgot about the 5-4 SCOTUS decision. Maybe because it seemed like a denouement to all the DCt and COA decisions that prevented Trump's policies from being implemented. Still though, I don't think that's exactly what they said, if I understand correctly there's plenty of room for divining improper thoughts and "animus" in the mind of political actors, see cases like Windsor and Masterpiece. The City of Hialeah case touched on it as well.
The decisions you're salty about weren't about animus, they were about failure to address reliance interests.
Masterpiece were statutory.
Windsor was a Kennedy decision, so who knows what it was about.
The Muslim ban was an executive action with a purportedly illicit executive purpose.
Nothing in that decision limited it to executive actions.
Animus analysis as a general thing is dead.
Which is why none of the legal theories offered here are about animus. Retaliation is not an animus analysis.
No, but there's other case law that limits courts from looking at legislative motives. Apparently, there's a post on that forthcoming.
Which is true as far as it goes (we'll see how far it goes soon looks like) but is also not your original thesis.
It's literally the OP of the thread we're on.
ML posted that 'The various Trump cases certainly undermined that seemingly common sense principle [animus analysis of laws is not a thing] as to executive actions.'
I responded with the main case on point - the Muslim ban - did the opposite of undermining that.
You then posted "The Muslim ban was an executive action with a purportedly illicit executive purpose." Did you forget how the Court came out there?
It’s not on point. It involved executive authority, not legislative authority.
I think you're mixed up on how the Muslim ban case came out...
So I guess the antiChik-Fila stuff, attempts to instate the Fairness doctrine, and investigations of the Trump Organization and all other times Dems punished political rivals was unconstitutional but nobody notices unless grooming kids is on the line.
So go back and make an announcement that this is about Disney paying its fair share. Problem solved.
The whole we need to teach 5 year olds about "gender fluidity" and tell them "puberty blockers" are legitimate medical treatments that they can use is just plain creepy and highly suspect.
The law sees refusing to hold forth a benefit as not the same as removing that benefit.
Though I agree with you it's a bad double standard to have. Similarly for anti-BDS laws. Maybe legal; bad policy.
To nobody's surprise, your understanding of the facts and your guess are both wrong.
An accusation of grooming kids is a canard -- a plain indication that the accuser is not one to be taken seriously.
As leftists like to tell us "actions have consequences" and that is what hit Disney here.
I can't believe the Framers intended the First Amendment to apply to a special right conferred by a Legislature to become vested, effectively, in perpetuity, because of heavy restrictions (impossible restrictions?) to rescind.
If the left is really morally outraged here, perhaps a little self reflection might be in order before doing the standard hang wringing and gnashing of teeth. You spent the better part of the last 30 years trying to cancel people, companies, and entities. And now you decide the tactic is no longer ethical?
With this logic a defense contractor or anyone living off a government grant can in theory effectively force their contract or grant to go on forever by becoming a blabbermouth against whatever current regime is in place and claim they're being persecuted. Imagine every single rejected multibillion dollar jet or tank concept or program to make toilet seats in topeka lasting for centuries on end.
A provable independent reason for firing is a valid defense.
Why not quote this bit of Prof. Dorf? Readers can decide who is corrupt.
"However, if the constitutional issues are difficult, the policy issues are not. What DeSantis and the GOP-controlled Florida legislature aim to do here is fundamentally corrupt--in much the same way that the repeal of state and local tax (SALT) deductibility by the then-Republican-controlled Congress and President Trump was. Their pretty obvious goal was to punish blue states for their political positions by shifting more of the tax burden onto them from red states. In analyzing that legislation in a Verdict column in late 2017, I noted First Amendment and other objections that parallel the ones I've noted here, as well as the same reservation about the difficulty of proving motive in cases less obvious than the attack on Disney. My bottom line with respect to SALT deductibility was this:
[N]o one should be fooled by the limits of what can be proven in court. In shifting some of the nation’s tax burden from over-represented red states to under-represented blue ones, congressional Republicans and President Trump acted in a crassly partisan manner and betrayed core [American] ideals . . . .
Likewise here, whether or not Disney can prevail in court, in wielding government authority in a crassly partisan manner, DeSantis and the Florida legislature act as corrupt bullies."
"What DeSantis and the GOP-controlled Florida legislature aim to do here is fundamentally corrupt--in much the same way that the repeal of state and local tax (SALT) deductibility by the then-Republican-controlled Congress and President Trump was. Their pretty obvious goal was to punish blue states for their political positions by shifting more of the tax burden onto them from red states."
Wow. Let's not forget that one of the political positions they were being punished for was supporting an unfair and counterproductive tax break for rich Democrats.
It is really "corrupt" to punish people for enacting poor policy by repealing the poor policy?
I'm continually surprised by how confused otherwise smart Dems are on the SALT issue. It's really not a complicated issue.
SALT subsidies are bad policy because the artificially increase the benefits from SALT taxes (unless you can find an argument for why SALT taxes should be subsidized, which I haven't heard).
The fact that there may be other (presumably good) policies that tend to benefit red states in the aggregate doesn't justify a bad policy that tends to benefit blue states in the aggregate. If you have arguments against individual policies, make them.
It is the reality of "tax the rich" -
Yet the dems hate it.
I wonder why?
I think it's more you're confused.
On the previous SALT threads, there were 2 liberal opinions:
1) SALT was good because it was fair not to double-tax since government is government whether federal or state/local.
2) SALT was bad because it didn't incentivize anything useful.
And you know what? It's fine and good for a party to not always be in lock-step.
But what was clear was it only existed to screw blue states. Because owning the libs is the only excuse acceptable for a GOP tax increase these days.
And the number of supposedly conservative commenters suddenly finding a love for a tax hike was not fooling anyone.
I'm pretty sure it's not me. Liberal opinions? OK, let's see how they're wrong.
It's certainly not fair (or good policy) to create a situation where a state can effectively collect a portion of its SALT revenue from taxpayers in other states. And the alternative is for states to tax state/local benefits, which would be stupid.
This is closer but it doesn't go far enough. It is bad because it incentivizes a higher-than-optimal level of SALT.
Removing a benefit that blue states shouldn't get anyway doesn't "screw" anybody.
As has been explained to you before, it wasn't a tax hike, it was a removal of a poor policy in the context of an overall tax cut.
That is mostly true, but it was most definitely a tax hike on a narrow sliver of people. Because of the way AMT and the Pease phase-outs of itemized deductions work, the reduction in SALT royally screws homeowners in high property tax jurisdictions with about $200,000 of annual household income. Much above that and the AMT and Pease would have nuked your deduction under the old system, and much below that, the revised standard deduction offsets the SALT.
I'd wager a lot that the demographic in question skews heavily D, so it was a win-win for the GOP.
Now you're just having policy disagreements with those who like the SALT deduction and are declaring them incoherent. Meh.
Removing a benefit that blue states shouldn't get anyway doesn't "screw" anybody.
You don't seem to understand how expectations, or generally human nature works.
it wasn't a tax hike, it was a removal of a poor policy in the context of an overall tax cut.
This is also nonsense. It was an addition to a separate tax cut. You don't somehow lose the ability to analyze the policy on it's own because it's part of a larger law. And on it's own, it's something the GOP would never due. Except for pettiness; they're the party of pettiness now.
Well, I made arguments about why SALT deductions are bad policy and neither you nor anyone else has refuted them. What's your point? And I didn't say anybody was incoherent.
Your whole line of argument here is a strawman. No one has ever said that it's always bad to eliminate tax deductions, especially in the context of a broader tax cut. That's in addition to your false claim that I supported a tax hike, that was largely a tax cut for most people.
Talk about nonsense! Rich Dems expected a tax break, so they should get a tax break?
I don’t agree with those people either but the standard of ‘doesn’t convince me’ is not a useful one. Same goes for you.
You said taking away something doesn’t screw anyone if it’s good policy to take it away. That is ridiculous. Every policy good or no has winners and losers. This is elementary.
"You said taking away something doesn’t screw anyone if it’s good policy to take it away. That is ridiculous."
OK, would you rather I said it was good policy to screw them? Sounds like hair-splitting.
It's not hair splitting.
Removing a benefit that blue states shouldn't get anyway doesn't "screw" anybody. is flat wrong. And you said it because it sounded right, 'cause it seems to allow targeting blue states.
No. That's petty and bad. And so is what Cuomo tried with the NRA. This should not be hard. It's awful how much work you're doing rationalizing GOP pettiness and abuse of process.
"Removing a benefit that blue states shouldn't get anyway doesn't "screw" anybody. is flat wrong. And you said it because it sounded right, 'cause it seems to allow targeting blue states."
No it's not. It sounded right because it is right. Again, they're not screwing the blue states, or targeting the blue states. They're (partially) stopping the blue states from screwing the red states.
They're not screwing blue states, it's just that blue states are being screwed, and they're laughing about it, and this action is otherwise out of character.
Come off it, dude. It was legal, I'm fine with it as a policy (though I also think the fairness argument is reasonable even if it doesn't convince me).
But it was also done out of petty spite, and it's really clear to see, based on previous GOP behavior on taxes, and the chortling afterwards.
"They're not screwing blue states, it's just that blue states are being screwed,"
Nope. The blue states are doing the screwing. Pre-cap, some rich blue-state taxpayers pay less than similarly situated red-state taxpayers. Post-cap, same thing, but less so.
Pre-cap, these blue state taxpayers are out of pocket less than a dollar for every dollar they give the state in revenue. Post cap same thing, but less so.
If that's how you screw somebody, you're doing it wrong.
And the fact that somebody may have chortled doesn't change that.
Pre-cap, some rich blue-state taxpayers pay less than similarly situated red-state taxpayers. Post-cap, same thing, but less so.
No one was complaining about this. You've made up some nonsense standard of tax equity in order to justify this.
"No one was complaining about this."
I complained about it every April 15th for years :-). Don't you think people who weren't getting the deduction realized what was going on? The details are right there in the 1040 instructions.
I think in another thread you said you have lived primarily in NYC and DC? Both areas where the SALT deduction might be popular? 'No one' and 'no one I know' aren't equivalent statements.
It make little but partisan polemical sense to discuss the reduction of the SALT deduction outside of the context of the reduction of the AMT hit and the overall increase iin other deductions.
I think it's fine to discuss it out of the context of the larger tax scheme. It's an easily severable policy; it's not an integral part of the plan upon which anything relies.
It also stands out as the only increase in the whole shebang. And it was dropped in seperately.
Not hard to disentangle, even if you don't like what you see when you do.
You can discuss it if your goal is to be deliberately misleadingg about the tax package. Of course it is legally severable. No one claimed otherwise. But not acknowledging that the cap reduction is linked to other major aspects is at best dishonest.
However, as I said, I'd be happy to get an addition $45K in deductions.
Removing a benefit that blue states shouldn't get anyway doesn't "screw" anybody.
It was not a benefit that blue states got. It was a benefit which every state got alike. It mattered more in blue states.
They had high costs of living, and high real estate taxes. So in those blue states ordinary non-rich people got hammered. In red states with lower real estate taxes, only the rich lost. Everyone understood that was what would happen, and that was what was intended. It was about altering a partisan-adjacent status quo to screw people who had relied upon it.
Because I lived in a Massachusetts blue collar town with little commercial real estate to tax, the residential real estate tax rate was maximally high (perpetually pegged to the max rate state law allowed). In neighboring towns commercial uses were much richer, and thus those towns never had to tax their rich residents anywhere near the state rate limit. Much richer people who owned mansions were paying lower real estate tax rates than carpenters, plumbers, and school teachers who owned high-maintenance, worn-down, 150-year-old ordinary houses, which needed new windows.
As a result, with a household income under $100,000, in a high cost-of-living location, I got hammered by the SALT change. So did a lot of others in my town—people who were driving school buses got hit. It was by no means a tax exclusively on the rich. And it came with a double whammy.
Because the rest of the legislation was purported to be a tax cut, withholding rates got adjusted downward mid-year, to put a boost into paychecks. That seemed good until tax time. Then everyone discovered that because the SALT deduction was gone, that meant even average earners had under-withheld, and had to dig deep.
People who say deduction of SALT was just a break for the rich have no idea what they are talking about.
The issue with the "screw the blue" version of reduction in SALT deductions is that unlike other deductions, this one is the same amount if you're single or married. Basically increasing the marriage penalty, something the GOP used to complain about. I don't have a huge issue with the tax increase as much as I do the reason it was done and the lack of effort in making it a good law rather than a "good burn."
In totally unrelated news, since 2017, CA has banned essentially all state-funded travel to 18 states whose LGBTQ laws do not meet CA's standards for appropriate legislation.
In other unrelated news, it has been nearly five years since Andrew Cuomo, then NY Gov., sought to destroy the NRA by pressuring banks and insurance companies into cutting ties with it. That one was especially poignant, as the ACLU, when faced with the choice of supporting government bullying or the free speech rights of an unpopular organization, went unabashedly for the former.
Again, refusing a benefit is not the same as removing that benefit.
And state-to-state regarding state policies is not the same as state-to-corporation regarding speech.
Other than that, bang-up job with the analogy!
Be interested in more on this NY pressure on banks. Was it just public speeches?
I think the legal questions are difficult. From an ethical perspective, I see little difference between Desantis trying to punish Disney for participating in politics, and Newsome trying to punish numerous small and large businesses in the affected states (by making public CA funds unavailable) in an attempt to punish those sates for their own politics.
Here is a news article on Go. Cuomo's perfect conversations.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-guns-new-york/new-york-governor-presses-banks-insurers-to-weigh-risk-of-nra-ties-idUSKBN1HR04P
A sample: "The governor directed New York’s Department of Financial Services to urge state-chartered banks and the more than 1,400 insurers it regulates to review whether their ties to the NRA and similar groups sends the “wrong message” to clients and communities."
OK, I did come in a bit hot.
But all industry in a state is not analogous to a single corporation. It's why the SALT deduction repeal is not the same as this Florida Disney nonsense, even if both are bad - one is petty and should be beneath the GOP; the other is authoritarian state vengeance and is really bad news.
Diffused targeting in a state-state policy fight is petty, but it's not bringing the hammer down because that one guy did something you don't like. Not that it's directly applicable, but Bills of Attainder are defined by this power differential
I am not defending Desantis here -- in an earlier thread I gave my opinion that he was not only ethically wrong, but also making a political blunder.
However you are letting your political sympathies cloud your appreciation of how insidious Newsome's policies are.
The fact that their effects are diffused is, if anything, worse, because they are affecting businesses (like restaurants and hotel franchises) least able to absorb the blow, and who bear absolutely no direct responsibility for the laws in question. And if they are not actually having any effect, then Newsome is just engaging in political grandstanding and virtue signalling (sorta like a certain FL governor I could name). On the other hand, if there is anyone that can go toe-to-toe with the gubmint, Disney is it.
P.S. it looks like we are in agreement about NY's former governor.
I know you aren’t defending this. I think my political objectivity are well tested by my SALT deduction comparison coming up as a lesser evil.
It’s not about the virtue signaling - plenty of good laws are motivated by that as well. It’s the single target aspect that makes it not just petty and below a statesman but authoritarian.
Eh YMMV, this isn’t an objective discussion. But as I said I think my distinction has some Constitional recognition in spirit of not on special application.
Now that the AMT is fixed, I'd welcome an additional $45 K in SALT deductions. Why wouldn't I.
And yes, what Cuomo did was both petty and edging towards authoritarian.
I was born and raised in NY. Went to school in the Bronx.
Not a lot of ties to it, but it's politics are worrisome and not getting better at the moment. The knee-jerk hostility to landlords is really dumb.
Same! Bedford Park neighborhood. But I went to high school in Manhattan (Xavier).
Sarc does not strike me as a CHSAA type. I am guessing Horace Mann.
I went to your arch-rival (and superior in every way) 😉
Fieldston. Me and Oppenheimer and the guy who played Chekhov on Star Trek.
I can't say Fieldston surprises me either 😉
Ha! I went to Manhattan College, your neighbor.
Or, maybe the state of California doesn't want to send its employees to states that are more likely to violate their civil rights? Which is why Disney is unlikely to move forward with relocating their more creative subsidiaries to Florida as they're likely going to lose valued employees for fear of the same type of discrimination. Even the US military is providing support to soldiers who are forced to relocate to states passing anti-LGBTQ laws.
'In this corner . . . champion of free expression . . . Prof. Michael Dorf'
'In the other corner, fan favorite of right-wing partisans and occasional supporter of free expression . . . some other guy.'
A difficulty here is long-standing precedent that local governments have no comstitutional rights. They are creatures of the state, which can create and abolish them at will.
So if all Florida did is anolish a unit of its local government, Disney has no recourse. It has no more right to have its preferred local government than the Yosillanti people who didn’t want to habe Ypsillanti addresses did to live in their preferred town.
So even where local officials have constitutional rights, their localities nonetheless do not. A state legislator which cannot fire a mayor directly can achieve the same goal indirectly by abolishing the town the mayor is mayor of.
It's not just Disney.
https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022C/3C/BillText/Filed/PDF
132 Districts involved, possible 6 affected.
https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2022C/3C/Analyses/h0003Cb.SAC.PDF
I've heard that this bill is really going to benefit Disney, and hurt Florida. If that's true, does it really count as retaliation?
I mean, is it unconstitutional for a cop to tase himself in the nuts in retaliation for someone's speech?
From what I know there is no definitive analysis on who benefits and who is hurt. My understanding is that it is possible, but not a sure thing, that two blue counties may wind up having to change their tax structure and assume liabilities that were previously Disney liabilities; thing is that may or may not hurt or help any of the parties.
On another note what is clear that Disney still has, and will continue to have, lots of tax benefits from the state. Specifically Disney is considering moving one of it's divisions from CA to FL due to a more favorable tax situation; something that seems to be proceeding even if the special district elimination happens.
Bottom line is with the delay in eliminating special districts it may not even happen and even if it does the implications are not clear.
"On another note what is clear that Disney still has, and will continue to have, lots of tax benefits from the state. Specifically Disney is considering moving one of it's divisions from CA to FL due to a more favorable tax situation"
Is that some special break for Disney, or just the fact that in general taxes are lower in FL than in CA? The latter does not raise any particular concerns.
Taxes in CA are appallingly high.
W/R/T your points, ragebot (which are well-considered)-
1. No, no one is exactly sure of the fallout. Which is why this should not have been passed. Then again, I viewed strictly as a power play with little chance of actually happening ...
2. The move (from Burbank to Orlando) of some of Disney's administration regarding its parks already occurred.
3. However (and this is the big problem) this maneuver by DeSantis has created two huge issues for Disney; the first is obvious. There is now increasing uncertainty regarding the "climate" in Florida, and therefore, less incentive to try and move further, non-park operations to Florida. The second is more profound- this has done serious damage to Florida's reputation in the overall creative industry, and it will take years for Disney to be able to get any major, non-parks divisions relocated to Florida.
In the end, I think the thing to watch is not all the abstract legal wrangling here. Nor is it the bleatings of people who are screaming about culture wars (even though they have no real idea why they suddenly got so angry).
See what Disney does. They have the attorneys to tangle this up in courts and apply a full court press. They also have the lobbyists, still, to make it go away. If DeSantis is serious, expect a massive court case. If this was just a stunt for his candidacy, expect to continue to hear nothing.
I believe it is still retaliation because the governor and the sponsors of the bill made it very clear that was the reason. Or, to use your own example, since the cop was aiming at an innocent victim and threatening the tazer if they didn't fall in line with an unreasonable demand, the fact that he's a poor shot, missed his intended target, and then tagged himself in the nuts doesn't change anything (except maybe his future employment.) Failure to execute an illegal threat correctly isn't a defense.
The analogy to "no right to be a policeman" strikes me as strained. This was not a case of Bob, a fully-qualified candidate, getting fired for holding unpopular views. This is more like Charles, an unqualified candidate who was hired anyway because he held then-popular views. Yes, it's disappointing and a little bit sleazy that it took Charles' views becoming unpopular before the problem was fixed but the fact is that he was never qualified in the first place. Revoking that special privilege can still the right thing to do even if it's for the wrong reason.
You really want that to be the factual inquiry a court makes? 'well, should the employee have been hired in the first place back in the day? Lets go into the merit vetting back then...'
No, that's crazypants. You're just trying to justify. You know, sometimes your side can do stuff and it's bad.
That's a factual inquiry courts make all the time. And while it's not great, it's definitely less-bad than trying to inquire about the "motives" of a legislature as if that barely-coherent mob could have a single purpose for anything.
No, courts inquire into current job performance, not the initial hiring!
Actually, no, courts inquire into the initial hiring all the time. Consider a claim about wrongful termination when the employer fires someone for having lied on their resume.
Didn't that whole SALT Tax thing get defeated a minute ago?
Seems to me that everyone who receives a special break from the legislature should do whatever they can to piss the legislature off so they can argue that any changes are retaliatory.
So, Dorf is an idiot -- gotcha.
He sure seems "crassly partisan" himself.
Trenchant analysis.
There are a couple of distinctions that I think may be meaningful:
Yes. It's local government. But it's unelected. It was appointed and not subject to removal during the ordinary course of elections. This makes it quite different from normal governments which can be removed by voters for any reason voters wish. That include voters voting out the government or elected official for the political views they express.
If there is no way to remove Disney for it's views-- not even including an ordinary vote that would take place for a Major or Governor, then the it really is a "special kingdom".
It's one thing to just call this a "special benefit". But being appointed to act as an unelected government that doesn't need to be re-elected from time to time is truly special. It's a bit anti-republican.
A mayor in NJ is elected which is one of the reasons the governor couldn't just fire him even if the governor wanted to. Other members of that government were also elected. Many of their "special privileges" arise from the fact they were elected and so out of reach of the governor.
So that colors what actually happened in NJ.
Technically, Disney is not the government of Reedy Creek.
It's just that there are only 5 "residents" of Reedy Creek that own land there, and they are the 5 voters, and they are the 5 members that sit on the government board that controls everything the local government does.
Oh, and all 5 members are senior Disney management, and they can only pass the land on to other Disney employees as designated by Disney.
But technically, the Reedy Creek government is not Disney.
Ok. Fair enough. I didn't know they had elections.
Cushy arrangement!
I assume things are organized so no-one is going to suddenly sell their land. Sort of a "pocket burrough".
I'm a trifle confused about how the special district hasn't already gotten in trouble over its gross violation of "one man, one vote".
The Reedy Creek charter says, " “At all elections of supervisors, each landowner shall be entitled to one (1) vote in person or by written proxy for every acre of land and for every major fraction of an acre owned by him in the District.”"
THIS is why Disney controls the district: They own almost all the land.
I don't think it's "almost." I believe they own 100% of it since the district was drawn based on the property purchased in order to build the entire multi-park facility.
What's the evidence that Florida legislators were motivated to punish Disney for protected speech?
Didn't Gov. DeSantis boast that he was responding to "woke" opinions from Disney that offended the half-educated, roundly bigoted, stale-thinking Florida residents who elected and support DeSantis?
Rev,
You didn't answer Citizen Jeff's question because DeSantis isn't a legislator.
It seems reasonable to infer that Gov. DeSantis was expressing the motivation underlying the legislative Republicans' votes. I also imagine some of Florida's poorly educated, diffusely bigoted Republican legislators couldn't avoid the temptation to mimic Gov. DeSantis expressly in this context.
If you have better evidence of the Florida clingers' motivation, please share it.
(Are these commenters genuinely the best you (or right-wingers in general) can muster, Prof. Volokh?
Ouch. Very ouch.)
Legislature passes redistricting law that leaves majority black districts alone. DeSantis says "I think you made a mistake. Here, I've created the one you meant to pass. Right?!" And then he called the legislature into a special session and and included the anti-Disney bill on top of it and told his legislature to enact it. And like the mini-Duma they are, they did what they were told.
Rev,
I don't think you can infer that DeSantis is expressing the motivation of the legislature. You can't infer the Dems in congress from Biden. It's just not generally the rule.
You answered a question requesting evidence for X. You gave something that is not evidence for X.
I don't need to provide you evidence of !X to support what I showed.
The legislature in Florida currently does what they're told. DeSantis was the main sponsor of the bill and his comments as to why he added it to the special legislative session are unambiguous. The legislature could have decline to vote on the bill if they weren't in agreement with DeSantis' reasons or, if they felt it was a good idea regardless of the DeSantis' motives, could have made that clear during their vote. They did neither.
Further, the vote was sudden and the impact of the law hadn't been determined prior yet the legislature enacted it regardless. So if they had alternative reasons, those reasons weren't researched or validated prior to the vote.
While I see your point that the legislature might have a more valid reason for passing the law than the governor's, I don't think their silence creates a defense. They could have delayed the vote to a regular session after having the impact of the law reviewed in advance of debating and voting.
Not qualified to judge the accuracy of it but found this interesting. Essentially saying you don't have to get to lofty principles of constitutionality for this to not be allowed.
It'll be blocked because the state of Florida signed bond contracts promising not to dissolve Reedy Creek unless it paid off all the bonds first. Which the legislation does not address. And one of the bonds has a contract not allowing redemption before 2028.
https://bnanews202.bna.com/tax-insights-and-commentary/the-contractual-impossibility-of-unwinding-disneys-reedy-creek
DeSantis probably didn't expect to actual have to dissolve Reedy Creek but rather merely use it as leverage to get Disney to come into line; which is why he had all this happen about 14 months into the future. But having DeSantis' own state laws complicate his authoritarian power move could make him look weak and end up having the opposite impact on his coming presidential bid.
The Special District is a government entity created by the state and has little recourse, but Disney is not. It has no powers of government, it can only elect the people who do.
Here is the Florida law that sets out how the legislature can dissolve a special district and its related responsibilities and obligations. Florida limited its own options in this case.
Yeah, no one is worried about Disney here.
This is still really awful authoritarian populist nonsense. Like Huey Long levels of bad news.
Disney isn't moving out of Florida. Despite DeSantis' efforts, they may even come out of this with accidental tax breaks.
OTOH, Disney is less likely to expand their offices in Florida and eye other states, including California, for expansion of their content industry activities. Florida doesn't lose Disneyworld but they lose future job expansion.
Huey Long was an authoritarian populist.
And Disney is still fine for kids. Red Panda movie is not going to turn anyone gay.
Has anyone considered whether the Disney Company may have a cause of action for damages against DeSantis in his individual capacity for unlawful First Amendment retaliation?
One may wonder how much DeSantis learned at Harvard Law School.
"Huey Long was an authoritarian populist."
Just a populist. All the King's Men was fiction.
Long was in opposition to FDR so left leaning historians attacked him. Ironic because he was to the left of FDR.
Or maybe you're the one behind the cultural times. Who is to say, none of us have our thumb as on the pulse of the populace as we think.
Our country is not really majoritarian, either. Doesn't mean populism doesn't pack a punch though.
You may want to look at how Long operated in Louisiana.
Are you suggesting that left-wingers cannot be populist or authoritarian?
Huey Long was left wing, populist, and authoritarian.
What in the world are y'all on about here?
It's a hard topic. Confused me no end while I was trying to grow out of my legacy of upper-midwest farmer populism inherited via my mother. Her brother used to recite the Cross of Gold speech while shaving, she said.
Huey Long != William Jennings Bryan. I don't think Long had a lot to say about the gold standard.
What damages? Their government services will be provided by a different municipality.