The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Prof. Michael Dorf (Cornell), Andrew Koppelman (Northwestern), and Me on Texas Anti-BDS Law
We just filed this amicus brief in A&R Engineering and Testing, Inc. v. Paxton, which is much like the briefs we filed in a couple of previous cases (Arkansas Times LP v. Waldrip and Amawi v. Pflugerville Independent School District). Here's the Summary of Argument and the Conclusion:
Decisions not to buy or sell goods or services are generally not protected by the First Amendment. That is the necessary implication of Rumsfeld v. FAIR, 547 U.S. 47 (2006), and it is the foundation of the wide range of antidiscrimination laws, public accommodation laws, and common carrier laws throughout the nation.
Thus, for instance:
- A limousine driver has no First Amendment right to refuse to serve a same-sex wedding party, even if he describes this as a boycott of same-sex weddings (or part of a nationwide boycott of such weddings by like-minded citizens).
- A store has no First Amendment right to refuse to sell to Catholics, even if it describes this as a boycott of people who provide support for the Catholic Church.
- An employer in a jurisdiction that bans political affiliation discrimination has no First Amendment right to refuse to hire Democrats, even if it describes such discrimination as a boycott.
- An employer that is required to hire employees regardless of union membership has no First Amendment right to refuse to hire union members on the grounds that it is boycotting the union.
- A cab driver who is required to serve all passengers has no First Amendment right to refuse to take people who are visibly carrying Israeli merchandise.
Of course, all these people would have every right to speak out against same-sex weddings, Catholicism, the Democratic Party, unions, and Israel. That would be speech, which is indeed protected by the First Amendment. For this reason, this Court should interpret "otherwise taking any action that is intended to penalize, inflict economic harm on, or limit commercial relations," Tex. Gov. Code § 808.001(1), as covering only commercial conduct such as that listed in the preceding phrases ("refusing to deal with" and "terminating business activities with"), and not extending to advocacy.
But as a general matter, a decision not to do business with someone, even when it is politically motivated (and even when it is part of a broader political movement), is not protected by the First Amendment.
And though people might have the First Amendment right to discriminate (or boycott) in some unusual circumstances—for instance when they refuse to participate in distributing or creating speech they disapprove of—that is a basis for a narrow as-applied challenge, not a facial one. For this reason, Tex. Gov. Code § 2271 is constitutional, as are contracts based on that provision….
Banning discrimination against Israel and Israeli companies—whether in general, or just for government contractors—is a controversial policy. Perhaps it is unwise, especially when applied to small service providers. Perhaps people should be generally free to choose whom they will do business with, unless such choice risks creating a truly pressing social problem.
But such decisions are a matter for the political process, not for courts. So long as a law leaves people free to say what they want, it may generally restrict people's decisions about whom to do business with—which are generally regulable conduct, not constitutionally protected speech.
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I've probably said this a hundred times ...
whenever I see Anti-BDS law, my mind automatically fills in the "M" at the end.
So I read these articles, and I go from excited, to confused, to disappointed.
I understand acts are not speech. Volokh listed services open to the public. This is about buying and selling one's possession. Can acts be compelled? Like buying something against one's will, or not being allowed to sell something by the government.
That would be freedom of association, but the left cannot rely on that as it has been crushed as surely as a skull under the treads of a Terminator tank.
First, they told us we couldn't choose who we associate with. Then they told us we couldn't say certain things. Then they told us we couldn't associate with certain people (because of things they say). They told us "liberalism" demanded this and the Constitution allowed it. And we believed them.
"And we believed them."
Well, conservatives tend to be poorly education, gullible (even superstitious), and uninformed . . .
Artie, Artie, Artie. You are woke, well educated, not gullible, well informed. When are you quitting your job and interviewing your diverse replacement? Until then, STFU. All your comments are just big talk from an old male white supremacist.
Those things aren't banned. What you are complaining about is that when you choose to associate with angry, cruel people, or say angry, cruel things, people think less of you and don't want to associate with you.
That is an example of other people choosing not to associate with you and telling you that your speech, which no one is stopping you from saying, is unacceptable to them.
Free speech just means you can say what you want, with a small number of specific exceptions. It doesn't mean that you don't have to face consequences for the things you say. Accountability is a fact of life.
Showing my age, I see "Bush Derangement Syndrome" and keep wondering how that could be legislated out of existence.
Answer: Electing Trump did this already. No matter how many bigotted conservative policies GW Bush pursued, all of that paled in comparison to what the Orange Menace accomplished. Just as Putin rehabilitated NATO, Trump rehabilitated Bush's image.
Three cheers!
I am now forever compelled to make the same addition.
You don't post here enough.
When I see a story about the K-pop band BTS I read BTK (bind, torture, kill).
Whatever floats your boat, dude.
But what a splendid example of something that really could have been left unsaid.
Lighten up, Francis.
". . . which is much like the briefs we filed in a couple of previous cases (Arkansas Times LP v. Waldrip). . . ."
So much for your work in Waldrip....
On February 12, 2021, the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals held that an Arkansas law requiring government contractors to pledge not to boycott Israel or reduce their fees by 20 percent violates the First Amendment. The lawsuit was filed on behalf of the Arkansas Times LP, which was penalized by the government after it refused to certify that it is not boycotting Israel or Israel-controlled territories.
https://www.acluarkansas.org/en/cases/victory-arkansas-times-lp-v-waldrip
And Pflugerville.
For the reasons given above, IT IS ORDERED that Plaintiff Amawi’s motion for a preliminary injunction, (Dkt. 8-2), and the Pluecker Plaintiffs’ motion for a preliminary injunction, (Dkt. 14-1, 1:18-CV-1100), are GRANTED. Defendants, and their officers, agents, servants, employees, attorneys, and those persons inactive concert or participation with them who receive actual notice of this Order, are preliminarily ENJOINED from enforcing H.B. 89, codified at Tex. Gov. Code § 2270.001 et. seq, or any “No Boycott of Israel” clause in any state contract.
https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/amawi-v-pflugerville-independent-school-district-et-al-order
It's fun - and sad - to watch Volokh ultimately lose every time on this issue.
It's like he's clueless about the First Amendment which is kinda weird seeing he's a professor on the First Amendment.
apedad: 1. Did you happen to see my link under Arkansas Times v. Waldrip? If you followed it, you'd have noticed that the Eighth Circuit had agreed to rehear that panel decision en banc; we're still waiting for that en banc decision (argument was on
2. I didn't include a link under the Amawi case, but if you'd done a quick search, you might have seen that the Amawi injunction was vacated by the Fifth Circuit on mootness grounds (see here). Our brief is indeed inconsistent with the view of the district court decision in Amawi, but district courts sometimes err (as do other courts).
3. More broadly, there's no shame (or "clueless[ness]"), I think, in legal academics taking a view contrary to that of lower courts (or even the Supreme Court). Indeed, many constitutional positions that ultimately prevail do so only after some courts reject them. Nonetheless, I just wanted to set the record straight on the actual state of the rulings in the federal appellate courts in these cases.
Thanks.
I didn't want to spend additional time looking further.
You're still going to lose.
ape, take the L.
Verbal curb stompings like that can only be survived, not refuted.
I'm not sure.
This is a relatively difficult issue. Because it gets to the heart of what is a permissible regulation of economic activity to promote a desired goal (such as non-discrimination), as opposed to an impermissible regulation of speech and association.
Don't think of the actual issue, because that gets heated. Think of some other, random country. How about a made up one, like Canada?
Now, some people want to boycott Canada because they hate their policies on maple syrup goodness. That's very much a political act, right? That's all NAACP v. Claiborne.
On the other hand, maybe state governments decide that they don't want to economically discriminate against Canadians. So a state government will only award contracts to companies that don't discriminate against Canada. I mean ... replace Canada with "minorities" and it's not that hard of an issue, right?
People should be allowed to boycott. Of course. That's an inherently political activity and protected. But I don't know that this is, a matter of law, a clear-cut issue.
Indeed it is not clear cut. As Eugene pointed out, how do you distinguish between boycotts of Israel and boycotts of same-sex weddings? Why is the former inherently speech while the latter is not?
So our government could have made similar laws regarding the South Africa boycott movement?
I think the argument that such laws would be constitutional are persuasive.
Possibly? The Constitution, unfortunately, does not enact my personal policy preferences.
And I'm kind of torn on the legal issues here.
To Loki and Josh
I realize this is the internet so you'd be right to suspect trap laying or whatever, but I was actually honestly wondering. I agree with you both this area is tough and that sometimes correct legal interpretation requires recognizing tough outcomes. Just curious as to the outcomes, thanks for both of your answers, which I consistently find interesting and thoughtful...
I don't think the conclusion should rest upon whether it would affect this popular example, but I guess I think that the lack of legal opposition to them could be telling about motivations and such.
Again, thanks.
"how do you distinguish between boycotts of Israel and boycotts of same-sex weddings" -- you recognize a compelling interest in banning the latter but not the former, based on involvement of an established protected class. Then, though the First Amendment protects both boycotts, a law banning the latter survives strict scrutiny.
In other words: arbitrary ad-hoc approach (instead of an actual bright-line rule one way or another).
We're gonna designate certain preferred groups ("protected classes") and make it illegal to "boycott" them. But if you're not in one of these preferred groups -- TS!
Equal protection, everybody!
Yeah, "recognize" is doing several truckloads of work in that statement.
It's just the usual passing laws that make some animals more equal than others.
Possibly the funniest thing I've read all day.
apedad: I'm just wondering where you get such confidence. District Courts have split on the question. The Eighth Circuit panel split 2-1. The Eighth Circuit agreed to rehear it en banc, so it seems likely that some of the Eighth Circuit judges agree with the dissent. It seems not unlikely that some Fifth Circuit judges will take one view and some others will take the other, and we don't know which of the judges will be on the panel.
On top of that, the two-judge Eighth Circuit majority didn't even hold that a prohibition on boycotts as such is unconstitutional; it struck down the law because it read "other activity" broadly. ("Assuming without deciding that the Act would not run afoul of the First Amendment if it were limited to purely economic activity, our focus is on whether the term 'other actions' includes activity that is constitutionally protected.")
Now I appreciate that you disagree with us on the First Amendment analysis, and perhaps on the statutory construction question. But what makes you so certain of how judges actually will rule, rather than of how you think the judges should rule?
Because in InternetCommentThreadLand, "descriptive" and "normative" are synonymous.
The Arkansas law seems to be closer to a compelled salute.
But the reason I disagree with your article is the “absolutist” language that a exchange of products or services are simply “not” speech. My recollection is that the court requires us to parse the expressive from non-expressive parts. Therefore selecting WHO you choose to do business with might be very expressive. But deciding it is speech doesn’t end the analysis. Some regulations of that expressive conduct might pass strict or intermediate scrutiny.
I'm pretty sure Eugene does not take that absolutist view as evidenced by his support for Elane Photography's right to turn down serving a same-sex wedding.
Does the Texas law in question require companies doing business with the state to sign something saying that they aren't boycotting Israel? Or does it somehow only apply to companies who have actively turned down or denied business with Israel? It seems like a company that says it is boycotting Israel, but has never had the opportunity to do any business with Israel, much less turn it down, is only being punished by Texas for its speech, or its beliefs.
Texas lawrequires government contracts to include a condition that the contractor does not boycott Israel and will not boycott Israel during the term of the contract.
Would a law which forbids a business form posting a sign "we do not serve blacks" violate the First Amendment? I don't think so because such speech is integral to unlawful conduct. If I am right, then it seems it would be also OK for the government to require you to post a sign "we do serve blacks."
I suppose. I realize that all these things require balance, and no rights are absolute, but this seems to be skating dangerously close to viewpoint discrimination and enforced speech. I wish courts would take expansive views on interpreting rights, rather than narrow ones. But I understand your point.
Indeed posting a sign that "we do not serve blacks" is illegal and will get you prosecuted. As will a sign that "we do not serve Israelis". Actually refusing to serve Israelis is of course illegal too.
As I understand it both the federal government and most states already do require all government contractors to affirm that they do not discriminate against blacks. That's why I find mind-boggling the idea that it's unconstitutional to require such a certification that one does not discriminate against Israelis.
To Professor Volokh and Apedad:
In effort to isolate the politics from the law, query whether the opposite requirement--that the contractor pledge to boycott Israel--would be enforceable? And if the answers would be different, why would they be different?
Formerly Known as Stash: Of course there's no First Amendment problem with the government requiring contractors not to do business with a country -- that's what sanctions are all about.
If states do it, there might be a problem with federal preemption, see Crosby v. National Foreign Trade Council (2000), but that's a separate matter on which our brief doesn't opine.
As the worm continues to turn for Israel in America, and we reach a point at which modern Americans enact laws Israel doesn't like, we can expect Eugene Volokh, Josh Blackman, and S.B. Tillman to offer prompt "explanations" concerning why any discrimination against Israel would be unlawful.
In Prof. Volokh's case, this likely will involve a bit of section 230-style revision to his views, but he will get there.
The old dual-loyalty trope, eh Arthur? Once again, Kirkland proves that Dems are the real bigots.
Is Tillman supposed to be Jewish? The only persons I've known with that last name were not to my knowledge.
It IS possible to convert to Judaism, not just be born into it.
Sure, but if you're going to accuse someone of being anti-Semitic for invoking three guys being pro-Israel the fact that some of them are at least not obviously Jewish is kind of important.
He is identified as Jewish in this article (which quotes him defending a writer against accusations of anti-semitism).
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/editor-stays-silent-over-the-controversial-sacking-of-writer-myers-35999219.html
Are Blackman and Tillman Jewish?
If not, you seem to be spouting especially silly nonsense.
Fuzzy Zoeller: Is Tiger Woods black? I had no idea when I made my comment about fried chicken and collard greens.
Of course they're Jewish, you antisemitic imbecile. That's why you made the comments that you did.
I would have expected to learn that Josh Blackman was a Christian rather than a Jew. Doesn’t matter much. The particular flavor of superstition doesn’t do much to distinguish among religious zealots, especially right-wing religious culture war crusaders.
Yeah, Kirkland's denial here is as credible as MTG claiming she didn't realize the Rothschilds were Jewish.
What kind of a racist are you?!
/sarcasm
"But as a general matter, a decision not to do business with someone, even when it is politically motivated (and even when it is part of a broader political movement), is not protected by the First Amendment."
I'm always bothered by the determination to shoe horn all our liberties into the 1st amendment. It's understandable, as the only amendment in the Bill of Rights the courts seem to take at all seriously. But it's still a distortion.
The decision not to do business with someone isn't a 1st amendment right, to be sure, but it certainly would have been a traditional 9th amendment right.
I would argue that it is a 1st amendment right but it's protected by the Association clause, not the Free Speech clause.
And, yes, if that is a "necessary implication of Rumsfeld v. FAIR" (and most of the other cases enforcing anti-discrimination and public accommodation laws), then decisions were probably decided incorrectly. Discrimination is bad and we should urge folks to become better people but bullying is not the way to change hearts and minds.
A few quick comments-
1. I don't think it makes sense to refer to the Association "clause" of the First Amendment.
2. I don't think that referring to anti-discrimination and public accommodation laws as "bullying" is a good way to frame it if you're trying to be persuasive.
3. Further, public accommodation and anti-discrimination laws predate the ones people tend to get all up-in-arms about; common carrier laws existed in the US in the 19th Century, and the common law origins go back to the 17th century (at least).
4. Finally, and I hope this goes without saying, there was some pretty serious issues that needed some rectifyin' in the US in the 1960s. Whether, and to what extent, some of these issues continue to be an issue (and how those issues intersect with out right to associate) is a thorny one, and certainly worthy of discussion. But ... yeah.
4. But that doesn't mean we didn't go down the wrong road, and end up trading one evil for another.
Eh. As I get older, I think things are complicated.
But ... I can't accept what you're saying. If we had to do it over again, if anything, we should have gone harder. We should have lived up to the promise to remove discrimination "root and branch."
We didn't.
But I think it's some serious revisionism to think that things would have been magically different and better. I think you fail to fully grasp with the magnitude of the evil ... which continues today.
But that's my P.O.V.
(And in saying all of this, I do agree that these laws abridge freedom of association, and I do understand that they cause harm as well.)
Screw that. Free people can discriminate in the use of their rights, and where do you stop with "root and branch"? Who people befriend? Marry? Will we force people to take jobs in a non-discriminatory manner, not just hire that way? To not discriminate in terms of which businesses they patronize, not just which customers they serve?
Non-discrimination law is in fundamental contradiction to the very concept of freedom. Freedom is the domain where you're entitled to make your OWN choices!
It's reach keeps growing because it's very existence violates those rights the Constitution is supposed to be safeguarding, so all defensible lines were crossed when it was accepted in the first place, and nothing more stands in its way save the ever fading reluctance to carry it to its logical conclusions.
Non-discrimination law and liberty can't coexist in a stable way, one or the other has to go, and so far it's been liberty that's been giving way.
The right of intimate association is protected by the Constitution. So, government won't be telling you who to befriend or to marry (especially since marriage is also explicitly protected). On the other hand, if a law requires me not to discriminate on the basis of race in who patronize, that is likely constitutional.
What's sad is you are trivializing liberty when you claim the CRA is sending us down the road towards the deprivation of liberty the people of Hong Kong, Myanmar, Belarus and many other places around the world are forced to endure.
"Screw that. Free people can discriminate in the use of their rights, and where do you stop with "root and branch"?"
I'm sorry you missed the reference. It's repeated a lot in civil rights cases, most famously in Green v. County Sch. Bd., 391 US 430 (1968) ("School boards such as the respondent then operating state-compelled dual systems were nevertheless clearly charged with the affirmative duty to take whatever steps might be necessary to convert to a unitary system in which racial discrimination would be eliminated root and branch.")
The idea was to eliminate and eradicate the de facto and de jure barriers that discrimination had erected.
I realize that this may not fit in with your world view, but when you had a society with a candidate running on "Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever," and systemic effects throughout society (from redlining to overt discrimination in all manner of jobs and places) then it was kind of a big deal.
I don't think there can be a "common good" if there aren't some realms within society where everyone can experience that commonality. Where is our national identity if we spend so much time looking for that "one drop" that might disqualify someone from a job, a seat in a school, or a bed in a hospital?
Non-discrimination laws maximize liberty for everyone in the country, regardless of gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.
And we're having this conversation at the same time the GOP has decided to give new life to the "homosexual = pedophile" stereotype to drive the coming set of elections and is attempting to pass laws restricting what public school teachers can teach or say in their classrooms regarding race, sexuality, and gender. But tell us more about this "liberty" you speak of?
Free people can discriminate in the use of their rights,
Formalizing freedom like this ends up with a functionally unfree society.
Lots of examples of how this works. If Jim Crow doesn't strike you, how about the Lochner era? So much freedom lots of people have to sell away their freedom to not starve!
We already formalized freedom like that, over 200 years ago. We're just currently violating it.
The freedom of 200 years ago was formal. And manifestly unfree in any practical sense.
re: #2 - Well, decades of talking about the fundamental inability to legislate morality into people has failed to open any eyes. Different language is apparently necessary. How would you describe the problems of coercion over persuasion? Why is "bullying" not the right description?
re: #3 - You are correct that common carrier laws predated public accommodation and anti-discrimination laws. The critical difference is that the common carrier laws were a tacit acknowledgement of the natural monopolies of the carriers. The common carrier laws were (arguably) necessary for those limited situations where no competitive market existed.
re: #4 - Absolutely there were some very serious issues that needed fixing in the 60s. The question on the table is whether the "fix" we chose (anti-discrimination by coercion) did more harm than good. I and others argue that they have done more harm - that levels of discrimination were already dropping precipitously - that the anti-discrimination laws could not have been passed in the first place if this was not already so - and that the passage of those laws first made us complacent and second triggered a backlash that would have been avoided if we had chosen to continue persuasion rather than to attempt compulsion. Passing those laws felt good at the time but here we are over 50 years later still arguing about it.
And, yes, on #4 I recognize that reasonable people can and should disagree and discuss.
Re 2- I don't think of laws, in general, as "bullying." That's just a poor phrasing, in my opinion. It's like when Nikita Mazepin calls the sanctions against Russia "cancel culture." If you want people to seriously engage with you, that's not the best way to put it. IMO.
Re 3- Common carrier (also known as public carrier) isn't just about monopolies. It dates back to "common hosts" and even craftsmen that served the public. It wasn't about a monopoly, it was about those merchants, inns, or carriers who served the public (through transport, hosting, or otherwise) indiscriminately.
Re 4- I understand your opinion; that said, I will respectfully disagree with you on the balance of harms. I do agree with you that anti-discrimination laws are not an unadulterated good.
Bullying connotes a wholly illegitimate purpose. I would hope you agree that there are considerable legitimate positives from anti-discrimination laws. And if so, you might then realize why "bullying" hurts your argument.
I prefer denotation over connotation; It's easier to agree on and less value laden.
Not so. Someone bullying you to steal your lunch money is a wholly illegitimate purpose. But your doctor or your spouse (or worse, both) bullying you into eating better and maybe getting a little exercise is an entirely legitimate purpose - it is just a generally illegitimate (by which I mean ineffective) means to get anything beyond short-term compliance. For another example, tiger-moms bully their kids into piano lessons, etc, not because they don't love their kids but because they do. They have a legitimate purpose but their means tends to lead to resistance, resentment and a failure to develop intrinsic motivation. Despite their purpose - despite their stated intent - their behavior is frequently indistinguishable from the schoolyard bully stealing lunch money. And that's what makes it bullying.
Hey- you are going to use the terms you want to use. You can justify it to yourself however you would like.
I will just note that others have pointed this out to you, and if you really hope to have good-faith conversations with people that do not share your a priori beliefs about these types of laws, you are unlikely to get very far if you keep using that term to describe those laws.
But it’s your choice. Use the rhetoric you want.
Use of the term "bullying" to describe your beloved spouse and your caring physician trying to convince you to take better care of yourself is entirely poetic; it's not real bullying. Bullying implies causing harm and intimidation to someone who is vulnerable. Getting your spouse to eat their broccoli and cut back on the smoking isn't bullying. You're stretching the use of the word from its real meaning into metaphor. It's easily distinguishable in the examples you provide: you get people to eat better because you *care* about them. Schoolyard bullies terrorize their victims and often physically harm them. If your wife beats you with a club until you eat better, then you can ligitimately claim she's a bully and also have her arrested.
My guess is you were never bullied.
Disclaimer - not a lawyer.
"A limousine driver has no First Amendment right to refuse to serve a same-sex wedding party"
True enough. But:
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
So, how is the involuntary servitude of the limousine driver not a violation of his 13th amendment rights?
Because that idea made justices sad so they decided to substitute their personal preference for those plain, unambiguous words.
It's not involuntary servitude to require common carriers to do that, unless you think that all regulations are involuntary servitude (because hey, they're telling you how to do what you do!).
So, I looked up "common carrier". Here's a definition from the Cornell Law School:
"A common carrier is a person or a commercial enterprise that transports passengers or goods for a fee and establishes that their service is open to the general public. Typical examples of common carriers include, a shipowner, railroad, airline, taxi service, etc. A private carrier, on the other hand, is a person or a commercial enterprise that only agrees in particular circumstances to transport passengers or goods. Private carriers differ from common carriers because they don’t establish that their service is open to the general public. In other words, private carriers enter into a contract with each customer without the assumption that a similar contract will be available to the next customer. "
Thus, the limousine driver is not a "common carrier".
Do you think limousine drivers don't hold their service out to the general public?
I mean, you can right now look up limo drivers in your area who, if you contact them, can tell you what their fee is per hour and such.
Do you think that if I head out to the nearest limousine stop and wait long enough, a limousine will pull up and I can get in? If you don't like Cornell Law's definition of common carrier, cite a better one.
It's not the definition I'm disagreeing with, it's the understanding of how limo drivers work. Answer my question.
"Do you think limousine drivers don't hold their service out to the general public?"
Some do. Some don't. That some limousine services present themselves as common carriers does not mean that all do, or must.
I have never had a limo driver negotiate and sign a contract with me for their services. If I am reading it correctly, an individual contract with the customer is the main differentiation between a private and a common carrier.
Whoops.
https://casetext.com/case/smith-v-chicago-limousine-serv-inc
Everyone is a common carrier because the alternative makes justices feel sad.
Lol, someone's feeling sad!
Quick tip-
The 13th Amendment is kinda like RICO.
In other words, if you find yourself saying, "But wait, doesn't X apply," (when X is the 13th Amendment or RICO) just stop yourself.
The answer is always no.
I think the Nieporent rule applies: can the CRA be justified under this interpretation of the [13th Amendment]? If not, then reject this interpretation.Moreover, SCOTUS directly rejected this argument in Heart of Atlanta.
Because you don't have a constitutional right to be a limo driver. If you choose to do so, you have to follow the law.
The part you have to ignore to make a legitamate argument that it is slavery or involuntary servitude is that you have chosen, voluntarily, to be a limo driver. If you don't want to follow the law, changing jobs is the solution.
Or changing the law, if you can, but in the meantime you have to follow the law.
This is nonsense. In general, laws can’t require the blanket waiver of constitutional or human rights to do something ordinary, like work for a living.
They couldn’t make you give up your 1A rights in order to offer a service or work a job. Same almost every other right, in almost every other situation. Exceptions require special needs or circumstances.
The right answer is the one I gave: justices decided their preference was that this specific right not to be used.
I don't have a specifically enumerated right to be a limo driver, or eat a hamburger, or terminate a pregnancy. That doesn't mean that there's no such right. And I do have to follow the law, but am free to argue that the law is unconstitutional.
On "Better Call Saul" two nights ago, lawyer Cliff Main was asked to represent the Kettlemans in a lawsuit against Howard Hamlin, and he turned them down just because he thought the case had no merit. If limo drivers have to take every customer, no matter how that might affect their business and reputation, lawyers do too. Right? There's no constitutional right to be a lawyer. So lawyers accept all clients always, right?
Fun fact: in the UK, that's how it is. (The implementation is a bit more complicated, but that's the principle.) It's actually called the cab rank rule.
See the difference between a common carrier and a private carrier. You seem to want to call everyone a private carrier without them having to fulfill the requirements.
Or are you saying there isn't (or shouldn't be?) such a thing as common carriers?
New law in Oklahoma: you have to attend Lutheran church once a week in order to be a limo driver.
According to Nelson, there’s no right to be a limo driver. Gotta obey the law. Therefore this new Oklahoma law doesn’t violate any rights in Nelson world.
Just because some conditions are unconstitutional does not mean all conditions are unconstitutional.
Some words in the constitution don’t make justices sad. Others do.
That law would violate my religious freedom rights even though I have no right to be a limo driver.
What if there were words in the constitution that prohibited involuntary servitude just as there are words protecting free exercise of religion?
The argument that anti-discrimination laws amount to involuntary servitude was rejected in Heart of Atlanta, an easy call in my view.
Because the justices and you share a personal preference and a dishonest willingness to pretend that laws mean what you prefer instead of what they plainly say.
And you and they are also fans of coercion and bullying to enforce your preferences on others — people who are minding their own business and have asked for nothing.
Not at all what I am saying. Not even a little bit.
If you want to get a law changed or removed, you have to do that BEFORE you ignore it or you will have legal problems. As you should.
The underlying argument kind of reminds me of the test for a theory of jurisprudence. Start with the question: can Brown v. Board of Education be justified under that theory? If not, then the theory isn't valid.
Here, it's start with the question: can the CRA be justified under this interpretation of the 1A? If not, then reject this interpretation. (As Prof. Volokh says, you can justify certain as applied 1A challenges. But not the CRA itself.) That's why FAIR was unanimous: because to uphold the schools' 1A argument would've been to undermine anti-discrimination law generally.
I think this test gets things backwards on a fundamental level; It's statutes that have to comply with the Constitution, not the other way around.
And, yes, I think anti-discrimination law generally is a steaming heap. A well intended steaming heap, maybe, but steaming anyway. It's in horrible contradiction to all the rights the Constitution actually guarantees, and is eating away at them.
It's a mistaken path we never should have gone down, and if we do not abandon it, all our liberties will eventually be compromised.
Yeah, this says a lot. You either think the CRA was a milestone achievement in advancing this nation toward its ideals or that it was a steaming heap bound to destroy everything good about this nation. Brett is one of these guys who will tell you that the state of liberty is worse (probably much worse) today than it was in 1850 or 1870.
Well . . . for obsolete, white, male, Christian, stale-thinking bigots, modern America probably is worse today than was the American of the mid-1800s.
And America is only going to continue to improve, against the preferences of right-wingers, White nationalists, superstitious gay-bashers, poorly educated xenophobes, and the rest of the Republican electoral coalition.
"for obsolete, white, male, Christian, stale-thinking bigots, modern America probably is worse today than was the American of the mid-1800s."
Not for most of them even, no.
"And America is only going to continue to improve"
Boy, I'd like to have you in my betting pool.
I think you underestimate how much these stale-thinking right-wingers focus on bigotry, superstition, and the "good old days" that exist only in their fantasies.
They're willing to take plenty of hits on other issues if (1) they get their licks in on hatred toward blacks, immigrants, Muslims, gays, Hispanics, women (to some degree), and often Jews and (2) public institutions pretend that the clingers' childish fairy tale can beat up everyone else's silly superstition (or lack of superstition).
These hayseeds just can't stand all of the diversity, tolerance, and progress in America. They also will never get over losing prayer in schools, creationism in science classrooms, and a prominent role for Jesus in just about everything and anything.
Well, not until replacement occurs.
Yeah, it says a lot: I value freedom much more than I value other people doing what I think is the right thing. I'm a libertarian, I think freedom lives in that space between what you should do, and can be compelled to do, between what you shouldn't do, and can be punished for doing.
And I don't want to see that space freedom lives in abolished.
How much 'freedom' does a person have when they are turned down by most restaurants, hotels, businesses, etc.? I mean, I've seen you bellyache about being disciplined on Facebook for crying out loud. Are you capable of taking that feeling, thinking about it applying much more generally, and then concluding something about what the CRA laws addressed?
I also have to question your assertion itself. You don't want to see illegal immigrants and those seeking associations with them to be told to do the right thing, you want them punished.
More freedom than somebody has if they can't pick who they work for because anybody who walks in the door can force them to take part in something they find abhorent, or financially ruin them.
And, what did I and my friends do when FB started intruding into our private group and telling us to censor ourselves, without even bothering to tell us what had offended their censors?
We picked up and left.
" You don't want to see illegal immigrants and those seeking associations with them to be told to do the right thing, you want them punished."
I said that freedom is in the space between what you shouldn't do, and what you can be punished for doing, what you should do, and can be forced to do. That space isn't infinite.
"I value freedom much more than I value other people doing what I think is the right thing."
Yet you are not just pro-life in your personal decisions, you see anti-abortion legislation as a good thing. Which is the definition of forcing "other people [to do] what I think is the right thing."
And definitely not libertarian.
Again, that space is not infinite. Objecting to the "All that's not forbidden is mandatory" dystopia does not demand that you become an anarchist.
Oh, and I'd note that the LP platform steered clear of abortion for a good long time after its founding, because it was a contentious matter within the libertarian movement. Pro-life libertarians are absolutely a thing, I was one back in the late 70's, too, even as I helped found a chapter of the LP at my college.
Who said anything about mandatory? I'll be happy when cultural conservatives stop trying to force everyone else to live by their moral standards. No one is sayong you HAVE to get an abortion, but if you want to you should be able to.
You value freedom exactly as far as your personal beliefs, and no further.
The acid test of a belief in freedom/liberty is to ask yourself if someone doing something that you strenuously disapprove of (assuming NAP), is that a good thing or a bad thing.
If you think that it is a bad thing, you do not support freedom or liberty. Because in a free society, people will always do things you don't like.
"You value X only as far as your values" isn't an argument, it's a tautology.
Additionally, "freedom" isn't a single global on/off value. Unless you are an absolute anarchist, you, too, have "freedoms" you will not tolerate in others.
In fact, in any society, there will always be some behaviors that you are unwilling to allow others to do - even when it doesn't involve you. (Assuming the abstract "you" here has values, of course - perfectly amoral people are a different matter).
That's why there a laws against murder or theft, for example. Allowing one person to kill another without repercussion for any or no reason, or take their stuff without cause or recompense, is certainly "freedom". But they're also behaviors that almost all others are not willing to tolerate.
Abortion happens to be one of those topics where many people see it as the same sort of immoral and unacceptable behavior as unjustified killings (literally, in fact). You may disagree as to the level of 'evil' that act of abortion represents, and that may change your conclusions about the level of freedom you would grant to the related acts.
But that doesn't mean that Brett - or others - don't value freedom at all.
I am calling out the hypocrisy of cultural conservatives who claim they are fierce defenders of freedom. They are fierce defenders of freedom as long as it doesn't violate their moral principles.
Once it does, using the power of the state to force others to follow a moral code they haven't chosen for themselves is perfectly OK.
85% (plus or minus a point pr two, depending on the year) of Americans reject the idea that life begins at conception. Two thirds believe that abortion should be legal through 20 weeks. Support for banning abortion before the third trimester has never been the majority belief of Americans since Roe v Wade was decided almost 50 years ago.
Even assuming a massive amount of psychopaths, murder, theft, rape, and other crimes would probably end up with 90%+ support. So I can see how something that would have a massive destabilizing influence on society would be banned.
But something that can't even convince one in five Americans? Despite a cadre of single-issue voters and litetally billions of dollars spent on influence campaigns?
I don't believe in binary constructs. No one is ever 100% for or 100% against anything. No group is ever 100% wrong or 100% right. But claiming "I value freedom much more than I value other people doing what I think is the right thing. I'm a libertarian.", as Brett did, is demonstrably false. It's not that he doesn't value freedom. It's that he believes that freedom should end at his beliefs and not a step beyond. At least with abortion.
He isn't the absolute defender of freedom that he claims. He isn't even a defender of freedom as accepted by a slim majority of people. He is, in regards to abortion, anti-freedom. That is my point with Brett and with anti-abortionists in general.
It gets things backwards, unless you care about real actual freedom people can use, rather than making sure all the principles line up on paper.
The Constitution is not a totem, if you think it requires a Jim Crow hellscape, that kinda makes it crap, no?
It's not a totem, but it IS the highest law of the land, and if it and statutes conflict, it's the statute that's supposed to fall, not the Constitution.
And if you don't like that, the Constitution can be amended. The 14th amendment certainly didn't override individual liberty, it was meant to extend it equally to everyone, not reduce it equally for everyone. On its own terms, its prohibition of discrimination only extends to states.
That was no accident.
I think the Constitution is a much better document than you do, it seems like.
There are limits to every Amendment to the Constitution. Rights aren't unlimited. Whether it's terroristic threats not being protected by the First Amendment, bans on automatic weapons and grenade launchers not being a violation of the Second Amendment, or any one of dozens of exceptions to enumerated rights in our legal code, there is no such thing as an absolute right.
And, as a general rule, I believe that the exceptions tend to be a means to protect the larger community from activities that are corrosive to liberty.
Jim Crow, in my opinion, is an example of the limits that free association in the public sphere should be subject to. There are those who would argue that Jim Crow wasn't that bad. It is an unsupportable belief, but you are allowed to believe it if you want.
In my view (without researching the question), it seems like there's a huge difference between refusing services to an individual and announcing a boycott of certain products. Of course Texas can say you can't refuse to provide services to people because they support Israel.
But that's different from this law which basically says, interpreted broadly, you have to swear you'll buy Sabra hummus. I'm being a little facetious, but the law essentially bans *announcing* a boycott, which, in my view, is obviously covered by the First Amendment. That's very different from all of your examples.
Government contractors have to declare that they're in compliance with the anti-discrimination laws. That already includes discrimination on the basis of national origin.
I had forgotten about the anti-discriminatory policy signs at work which are mandated by the federal government and yet seem not to have raised compelled-speech problems.
I do not think that a ban on discriminating on the basis of national origin covers refusing to do business with a nation or people who do business with or in that nation.
But it doesn't violate any anti-discrimination laws to choose not to buy certain products.
Or, wait, are you supporting me with your comment or opposing me? It seems like your comment supports my point, because the anti-BDS laws don't add anything.
Say I want to boycott Israel not because I want to “express” my disapproval of their regime, but because I have sincere moral beliefs that the Israeli regime is an apartheid state, and I believe that engaging in economic activity that benefits such a state effectively makes me complicit in that state’s immorality. Same result?
That’s why I refuse to vacation in Florida, for instance,
IANAL but it seems to me the "expressing" part isn't being legislated here. The laws are saying you cannot refuse to do business with Iraeli companies.
Of course, there are many ways to avoid doing business with pretty much any kind of entity if you're motivated enough. A Texan who wanted to boycott Israel could just move to a state that didn't regulate that economic activity and boycott as they see fit.
I am prohibited by my employer from traveling to Florida on official business because of Florida's own issues with its minority populations.
Pointless comment.
Say I want to boycott black people, not because I want to "express" my disapproval of their behavior but because I have a sincere moral belief that melanin is the mark of the Devil, or that it's radioactive and coming near it causes cancer, or some other such nonsense. Same result?
Suppose you want to spray paint graffiti on a bridge to express your profound ethical beliefs?
Same result.
In fact, what would transform it into a 1st amendment issue is if they cared what you were trying to express...
Brett, your example is so trivially easy to distinguish that it’s better just to dismiss it as yet another pointless murmuring of a narcissistic idiot who’s obliviously out of his league.
Perhaps. Isn’t that the question I’m asking?
Like, how explicit do I have to make it, for the hoi polloi here? My point is to say that, while some “First Amendment scholars” are busying themselves with limiting the zone of protected speech, the Court has been moving dramatically in the other direction, when it comes to free exercise of religion. It seems to me that the same behavior can receive a different degree of protection - even under the same amendment! - if we simply frame it as an exercise of moral belief rather than of condemnation.
Your “melanin” scenario is precisely the one cited by people warning against creating a “free exercise” opt-out from non-discrimination laws protecting LGBT people, which the Court is on the verge of imposing. And it’s distinguishable from the example I gave, which discriminates against Israeli businesses not because Israel is a Jewish state, but because it is an illegitimate, immoral one.
It may be that it would be difficult to distinguish anti-boycott and anti-discrimination laws as a matter of pure logic, but history and tradition are another matter. Boycotts against British goods were integral to organizing and developing the movement for independence, and eventually the very founding of the country. That's kind of what the Tea Party - the actual one - was all about. Shouldn't that history carry some weight for a purported originalist?
The claim here is that specific boycotts can be outlawed, not that all boycotts should (or could) be outlawed.
The claim here is that originalists should care more about the means than the end.
I'm sure that made sense in your head, but it's incoherent here. The fact that a boycott was used against the British does not mean that originalism therefore supports all boycotts as axiomatically legal.
No, the claim is that boycotts are not constitutionally protected. The fact that the founding generation apparently considered them to be an important tool of political action would seem to have some bearing on whether they are protected by the First Amendment, particularly if one adheres to an originalist methodology.
But as a general matter, a decision not to do business with someone, even when it is politically motivated (and even when it is part of a broader political movement), is not protected by the First Amendment.
Time to modify that. Make it clear that, "someone," includes neither states, nor governments, nor per-share voting corporations. If we are to have nationalistic statecraft, and capitalist policy, then ordinary people need access to every possible lever to effect influence.
Prof. Volokh: it seems to me that these anti-BDS laws target speech rather than conduct. After all, if I'm a random government contractor, the odds of me ever actually doing business with Israel are pretty remote to begin with, and these laws don't require me to do so. (How could that ever be enforced? What's the difference between "boycotting" Israel and simply doing business with someone else instead?) What they require me to do is announce that I won't boycott Israel.
As I noted above, a law which prohibits announcing you won't serve blacks is almost certainly constitutional because the speech is integral to unlawful conduct. Perhaps it would also be constitutional to require businesses to announce they will serve blacks?
Isn't that compelled speech, which should trigger strict scrutiny? Not announcing that you will serve blacks is not integral to unlawful conduct, so that 1st Amendment exception should not apply.
Perhaps. Or perhaps the constitutionality of mirror-image proscriptions and compulsions of speech rise or fall together.
Re: non-discrimination laws, there's a compelling government interest in preventing discrimination against established protected classes, so laws banning boycotts of same-sex weddings or of Catholics should still stand despite a First Amendment right to boycott. But there is no similarly compelling interest in protecting foreign states from discrimination, so laws banning boycotts of Israel should not stand.
If anti-discrimination laws survive because of a compelling state interest even though boycotts are speech, would laws which ban the advocacy of repealing anti-discrimination laws also survive for the same reason?
Is that the least restrictive means?
"would laws which ban the advocacy of repealing anti-discrimination laws also survive" -- of course not. Banning the advocacy of anything (except imminent lawless action) is not a compelling government interest, and "repealing laws" is certainly not lawless action.
Banning advocacy is not the claimed government interest. Instead, it's preventing discrimination on the basis of (for example) race. It seems to me banning advocacy of repealing anti-discrimination laws furthers that government interest. David has a point that perhaps banning discrimination is a lesser restrictive means that achieves the interest than banning advocacy, but I'm not sure.
Ok, IANAL and it shows; David is likely right. That's why there must be both a compelling interest and narrow tailoring: at a high enough generality level you can almost always find a compelling interest to justify something you want to do. Though I struggle to think of one to justify banning boycotts of companies that do business in Israel (as opposed to a boycott of Jews, or of people born in Israel regardless of current citizenship).
Texas' Anti-BDS law punishes companies who _say_ they boycott Israel, regardless of what they actually do. To avoid punishment, companies just need to _say_ they don't boycott Israel: "Sec. 808.006. RELIANCE ON COMPANY RESPONSE. The comptroller and a state governmental entity may rely on a company's response to a notice or communication made under this chapter without conducting any further investigation, research, or inquiry." What matters to Texas is a company's speech, not its actual acts. So this law clearly targets speech.
This sounds backwards to me. Every example you gave is permissible because it violates the rights of the person being denied the transaction; the state has the authority to balance the rights of it's own citizens. Foreign companies and governments lack such standing. If the state wants to diminish the 1st Amendment rights of it's citizens to protect another group of it's citizens being denied priv/immun and equal protection, that's an acceptable balance. To step on the 1st Amendment rights of it's own citizens to protect those who lack any rights under the US or Texas constitution... that shouldn't be acceptable. Compelling interests for the purposes of abridging rights have always been interests in protecting the people of *this* country.
I'm glad to see Chicago lose a round in the ticket wars.
...but I'm not glad I posted that in the wrong thread.