The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
When Is It Unethical to Publicly Identify an Anonymous Speaker?
The @LibsOfTikTok controversy brings up this question, though the broader question is an old one.
The recent controversy about the Washington Post's Taylor Lorenz publishing the name of the Twitter @LibsOfTikTok account reminds me of this question, though it has of course also come up before. Two things seem to me quite clear:
- Publicizing such names can sometimes lead to the user (a) receiving threats (from a tiny fraction of the people who learn the name), (b) potentially being targeted for physical attacks (likely from even a tinier fraction), and (c) losing jobs and other economic opportunities (whether because the employers or others disapprove of the person's speech, or are just afraid of lost business if they deal with someone controversial). This in turn can cause these people to stop speaking; and it can deter other people from speaking, for fear that they will be identified this way.
- Publicizing such names can sometimes help people understand the possible biases of the previously-anonymous speaker, the possible relationships between various sources of online information, and the like. In some situations, it can also help readers figure out if the speaker has said or done things inconsistent with the speaker's anonymous persona, and help readers further investigate the credibility or the motivation of the speaker.
On the second point, such identification differs some of what is called "doxxing," such as publishing people's highly private information or even their home addresses (though mere identification of a person's name is indeed often labeled "doxxing" as that term appears to be used these days). It has some value—sometimes modest, sometimes substantial—to many readers, though it can also cause harm as the result of the actions of a few readers.
Generally speaking, knowing who is saying something is often seen as one possible data point in evaluating the credibility or the motivation for the statement, though of course it isn't always especially important. With @LibsOfTikTok, which I understand primarily reposts—in order to criticize—other people's publicly available posts rather than making its own factual assertions, credibility might be less important. Still, understanding the speaker's motivations and biases that might affect the selection process could be important to some readers, especially for an account with 700,000 followers.
What then should we think about this? When is such identification of speakers—whether by the mainstream media or by other speakers—something we should praise, something we should condemn, or something that we should view with indifference? I'm not asking here whether this is illegal (it almost never is) but rather whether this is unethical.
Note that I'm not speaking here of the broader question of when media or others should identify, for instance, criminal suspects or alleged fraudsters or people who file lawsuits (or are defendants in lawsuits). Rather, I'm focusing specifically on identification of anonymous speakers, though of course it's possible that all these public identification questions are logically linked.
(For an example of my—rightly or wrongly—publicly naming the author of an anonymous account, in the course of discussing her lawsuit against someone aimed at trying to shut down such identification, see here. Please feel free to discuss that, or other of my posts, in the comments as well; I hope I've acted properly in such posts, but I'm certainly open to the possibility that I have erred.)
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Again, as with defamation, get damages from the people causing them. Prosecute the people threatening the person. I support the common law viewpoint requiring imminence and visible means of achieving the threat for criminal or tort action, as opposed to empty or jocular threats. Sue the employer acting on job irrelevant speech. The person is a realtor. Pedophilia in the videos is irrelevant to real estate. Sue any licensing board or regulatory agency that acts on them for the new tort of Free Speech Retaliation. Make it expensive.
Going beyond harassment, conservatives are getting visits from SWAT teams for fake drugs and weapons. They are getting investigated by regulatory agencies.
Those SWAT teams should be made to pay dearly from personal assets, not from tax funds. The same is true of all investigation costs generated by agencies and by institutions to harass conservatives. All damages should come from personal assets, since harassment is not part of the job description by the tax payer.
These benefits should be subtracted from any damages I proposed. The lady becomes famous. She gets lucrative speaking engagements. She gets hired by political campaigns to research videos of candidates. She gets a lot of supportive messages, and feels good about herself. She gets invited to attend and to speak at a MAGA rally.
I like Eugene's use of the word, ethical. When did any Democrat consider that word before attacking a conservative? Why are they so vicious? Simple. Pelosi net worth went from $40 million to $80 after she became Speaker. Power and and its accompanying money, in the millions.
What Eugene does not understand is that the facts abandoned the left 100 years ago. The left is just the Mafia, but in state power. 1% are wealthy and 99% are poor by theft. Maduro's sister has $4 billion. The Castros have $billion. Putin has $200 billion. Who knows what Xi has.
So personal attack, intimidation and killings are their means of persuasion. With $billions in theft at stake, it should be understood they will do whatever it takes to crush the opposition. So, the word, ethical, in this subject matter seems pathetic.
Lorenz is doing this in order to try to harm the person who posts the videos under LibsofTikTok. Basically, the person is just playing tiktok videos that others have posted. Lorenz researched and located the LOTT person's family members and went to their homes. She posted a picture of her real estate license and other information. Basically, she is encouraging people to go after the LOTT twitter account holder.
"Lorenz is doing this in order to try to harm the person "
Sure thing Professor X.
Why do you think Lorenz has doxxed the LOTT tweeter and gone to her relatives' homes? Lorenz has a history of doxxing people and causing trouble in their lives with both their careers and educational future. Do you think THIS time she is trying to do the LOTT poster some type of favor?
Uh, journalism? Exposing people and things is kind of what journalism does...
I can agree that the identity of the LOTT lady is relevant. But why are her home address and religious affiliation (also revealed by Lorenz) relevant? Hint: they're not.
Taylor Lorenz's m.o. is to harass people with whom she disagrees. Whether it's harassing their minor children or unjustifiably releasing their personal information, Lorenz is a shock-jock, nothing more.
And what's worse is she (an employee of one of the most powerful institutions in the country) cries about "harassment" (i.e., legitimate criticism) when people disagree with her. She's a fraud and a child.
I think her home address might be relevant to demonstrating where he is and who she is. And people want to know religious affiliations because religion often shapes our worldviews. That she comes from a very conservative religious background could help one understand her obsession with gays and such, for example.
I mean, couldn't she have said that LOTT lady lives in the "XYZ neighborhood of Brooklyn" to give a sense of where she lives, rather than her precise address? It sure seems to me that giving out the address is pretty obviously an intimidation tactic. Meanwhile, Facebook (a different entity, obviously) de-prioritized content about Patrisse Cullors' real estate purchases because the content violated privacy interests. But in that case, the real estate itself was an essential part of the story. Please excuse me if I express skepticism that LOTT lady's address is relevant.
Likewise with her religion. We know she's a conservative based on LOTT content. Do we need to know she's a religious conservative? Especially of a religion that is already excessively prone to attacks, including by left-wingers?
If she had said 'she lives in this neighborhood' wouldn't she then be open to attacks of 'well how do you know that?'
And the religion seems even more obviously relevant to me. If it were reported that she were a Mormon fundamentalist wouldn't that make you think about her 'grooming' comments differently? If she were a member of a conservative faction of the Catholic church wouldn't that make her criticisms of gay marriage be seen in a different light? Religion motivates a great deal of people's political and moral positions and often in a way more compelling than some want to acknowledge (this is why we have religious accommodations and exemptions!).
No. It wouldn't. None of what you posted makes me think anything differently.
In two words, no and no.
Remember kids, religious stereotypes are bad. Unless you disagree with the person's politics. Then they're totally fair game, since we all know religion motivates you to act.
Would you be so kind as to post your real name, address, religious affiliation, etc. on this blog so that we can better contextualize your comments?
The original article linked to a page with her real estate license number. How are you going to defend that?
You mean this article?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/04/19/libs-of-tiktok-right-wing-media/
Please highlight where your claim is supported. I found no hyperlink to such information whatsoever.
No, I meant the original article. That's why I took the trouble to type out the words "original article".
Congratulations, you have discovered the stealth edit.
You also could have meant the original, as in, differentiated from articles discussing the controversy.
Do you attribute the original version to be a mistake, or malice, or some other explanation?
What do you base that on?
You think she spilled her coffee and accidentally typed out a hyperlink to her address?
JC probably thinks it was an innocent drafting error, to paste a coherent clause about the home address of a story's subject into the text, followed by an unfortunate oversight by the layers upon layers of fact checkers and editors who didn't ask whether the departure from their usual practice was justified.
Michael, do you have any personal knowledge of the work processes involved?
Of course you don’t.
I actually do see a scenario where this could’ve been a mistake. It’s possible that every statement of fact in a draft is linked to the source automatically, and only during editing are the links parsed for publication.
It’s also possible, despite your unsupported accusation otherwise, that there are not “layers upon layers” of fact-checkers or editors.
So maybe you should shut the fuck up for once.
"Do you attribute the original version to be a mistake, or malice, or some other explanation?"
I attribute it to malice. If they had an innocent explanation, they were free to note it in a correction, as is normal journalistic practice.
A correction is for when one reports something untrue (whether substantively or misspelling or typoing). They had nothing to issue a correction over here.
You want to split hairs over whether a note explaining the change should be called a correction? They can call it anything they want. In the absence of an explanation, I'm attributing it to malice.
One peaceably assembles to petition the government, not to unpeaceably assemble and intimidate private citizens.
This is not about reasoned argumentation to set government policy, but intimidation.
Journalism? "That's what journalists do?" A journalist would investigate, and it it was someone working secretly for some faction, expose them and the faction. Is that what haooened here?
Or was it an unethical doxxing for purpose of intimidation?
????
That was supposed to be the ROFL emoji.
You're wasting your breath. Anything you can bring up no matter how heinous (as long as it doesn't become literally criminal) QA will say is justified when it comes to leftists doing it but would be unjustified if it was a conservative doing it. Thats how nutty the progs here are.
Now if it literally is a criminal act up to murder/genocide QA will probably still defend or minimize it if there is an opening. Otherwise it will be ignored.
Hi Queenie. You should post a copy of your license. If anyone fake reports you, I would like to fund your law suit against the licensing board for all investigation costs, your time, your distress. We would refuse all tax money, and demand all damages from the personal assets of the licensing board. To deter.
Exposing what exactly?
I could see exposing Mark Felt a Deepthroat had news value, and certainly exposing Hillary as paymaster of the Steele Dossier, but I’m trying to figure out the news angle in “exposing” a real estate agents anonymous Twitter account.
OK, are you just trolling? Because I've said at least a half a dozen times here the kind of thing that is or could be exposed that's newsworthy.
It's not newsworthy in the least.
The only way it's newsworthy, is if it's someone who is already famous posting.
If it's a rando posting, no one cares, except two types of people.
1. Those who already know the rando, and will use this information to punish her.
2. Those who want to go out of their way to dox people they don't like.
No one cares about the religion or address or any other nonsense.
Exactly, Mitt Romney's anonymous Twitter account was newsworthy, a suburban housewife/real estate agent is not.
Journalism pointers from disaffected misfits with no apparent journalism experience are always entertaining.
Feel free to post your real name, address and phone number then Rev. Entertain us.
If there is a point hidden in your comment, it is concealed well.
I am not here to entertain you. My ministry involves identifying hypocrisy, mistakes, bigotry, and the like, contributing to the marketplace of ideas.
"Journalism pointers from disaffected misfits with no apparent journalism experience are always entertaining."
These disaffected misfits are known to people with real skills as "customers" and real businesses spend quite a bit of time getting pointers from them.
" These disaffected misfits are known to people with real skills as "customers" and real businesses spend quite a bit of time getting pointers from them. "
Are you genuinely stupid enough to contend that heart surgeons should seek pointers from the public on how to conduct heart surgery; that nuclear engineers should take tips from hayseeds on how to design and operate nuclear reactors; that journalists should seek guidance from half-educated yokels on how to gather or report news; or that Bruce Springsteen, the Rolling Stones, or the Who should solicit pointers from the peanut gallery on how to play their instruments or write songs?
My tentative sense: You are that stupid. Which is great. My children and grandchildren get to compete economically with people like you, and your inadequacies make it easier for my preferences to prevail in the American marketplace of ideas.
Carry on, clinger.
CSB. Mind if we dox you for simply posting anonymous comments on here and then go harass your family members? if you do mind that, then spare us the sanctimony.
Why does Twitter (obstensibly) prohibit doxxing?
I put obstensibly in parentheses, because it obviously isn't consistently enforced, like many other Twitter terms of service.
Others have surely asked you, but what is the journalistic value of identifying an otherwise anonymous Twitter user?
*ostensibly, obviously. Just like Twitter, no edit functio
This would be the same Twitter that actively helped dox LOTT.
Like naming rape victims? Transparency, yea!
maybe take a gander at the SPJ Code of Ethics
This isn't ethical journalism
Yep. I don't see why this person's identity is at all newsworthy. I also wonder if WaPo puts similar effort into doxing left wing anonymous parties (one can guess not, but I don't read WaPo). Or is this just them doing their part in the culture war for "team left" to intimidate the opposition into fearful silence.
You don't see why it might be useful to know this person has a history of saying nutty things under different handles? That a GOP operative who won't comment on it did trademark work on the project? I don't know how you could ethically report on that without proving identification.
I don't see tiktok as worthy of news coverage in general. But nope, don't care who is running satire accounts in the least. I believe her motivations were bad, you believe they were just part of "good journalism" I guess. Each to their own.
I wonder when she will get around to doxing people on the left who say nutty things under different handles as she is an impartial journalist without any political axe to grind.
No, see you *believe* something, that's very true, but what I'm doing is just doubting what you believe, and I do because there's ready alternatives for the actions here. And it's silly to try to argue 'well, it's tiktok so who cares?' Obviously Joe Rogan or DeSantis' spokesperson or Tucker Carlson or the others who've highlighted the site care...
It is clear enough what you believe. Doxing bad-thinking people, A-OK.
And again, it is tiktok, I don't think *journalists* should care about troll or satire accounts on tiktok. And I don't actually care about what Rogan, Desantis, or Carlson think either, nor do I think what their interest should motivate a journalist to dox someone.
See, you're wrong again. My position here doesn't rest on any moral judgement about what the reporter or the influencer did or do, it has to do with how much influence she has. It's simply natural and often useful to know something about someone who is trying to influence our polity and has had a great deal of success in doing so, it's natural that journalists are going to work on that kind of thing.
" don't think *journalists* should care about troll or satire accounts on tiktok."
That's just dumb. So when tik tok was linked to violence via the tik tok 'challenges' journalists should have ignored it?
"don't actually care about what Rogan, Desantis, or Carlson think either"
Well, you've just gone from Lloyd to Harry with that one.
And knowing her address or religion, then whistling and walking away while they are opened to threats, as indimidation, has nothing to do with it.
I think you are confusing freedom of speech in a right to disseminate any information with bundling that into some justified cover story to hurt them.
It's not a satire account, FWIW.
"You don't see why it might be useful to know this person has a history of saying nutty things under different handles?"
Useful to make ad-hominem arguments?
Would your comments make more sense if we knew your name and address?
Look Commander Data, in the human world we often use information about a person making an argument (especially one trying to get us to change things that materially impact us), such as: does the person stand to gain financially or politically or what have you from people accepting their argument? is the person motivated by something like religious tradition or belief? is the person a pathological liar or nutcase? Access your files on inductive logic or things like impeaching witnesses or the credibility of expert testimony or the like.
Hi, Queenie. What town do you live in, so we may know your surrounding culture?
The neurodivergent like David have trouble understanding social interactions and so they often say awkward and/or creepy things.
https://spectrumofhope.com/social-cues-missed-with-autism/
I am trying to be more social. If you tell me your town, and I am going there, I love to take you out to lunch. I would enjoy meeting you in person for that more human interaction.
The neurodivergent like David have trouble understanding social interactions and so they often say awkward and/or creepy things.
https://spectrumofhope.com/social-cues-missed-with-autism/
Queenie. Try to stop repeating yourself so much.
"we often use information about a person making an argument"
Ok, go ahead.
Name, occupation, street address and religious affiliation will get us started.
Knowing those things about me or you would of course help people think about our political positions and arguments. Of course it's not very important with randos on comment boards but more compelling with people who have hundreds of thousands of followers including big time pundits and pols. Do you really not get that? The thing is, it doesn't matter if Bob gets it or not, he'll straight up admit his principles are just to see his side win, so if he seems to miss something so obviously relevant it's more likely he just thinks acknowledging it might be bad for his side.
Seems like you want OTHER people doxxed, but for some reason, it doesn't apply to you...
Queenie is a Democrat. Democrats persuade by sending diverses to people's homes. They throw rocks, and shout quaint sayings from the hood.
You are truly the Queen of ad hominem attacks so of course you think it’s swell to set this person up for that. Or worse, honestly if they got a thumping you’d be ok with it because they engage in wrongthink anyway.
You and Lorenz want your political opponents shut up because exposing the hypocrisy of your side is embarrassing. Setting a mob on a person like this, which is clearly the intent, is not journalism. Note that she never exposes someone on the left - there’s a flavor she likes and a flavor she doesn’t.
Meanwhile, any criticism of her leads to “oh you’re endangering my life, you hate women, how horrible this is for me”. Such a crock of shit. She may literally be the worst person active on social media. It’s no wonder that someone like you would support her.
Wow, you planted your flag on that mountain of alleged bad faith with some gusto! I mean, you really think I want LOTT to 'get a thumping?' And you can't think of any other reason why a journalist would report on the identity and background of a much cited social influencer other than to 'shut her up?'
So, just assume bad faith (I mean, beyond bad faith, evil intent) with anyone who disagrees with you and then go off on an outrage orgy on the hypo you've assumed. Wow.
I'm not sure its fair to say they assumed bad faith. I think they implied they had evidence Lorenz acts in bad faith.
I can’t think of any other reason to give out her address than to encourage visitors. And the kind of visitors Lorenz sends are not bringing welcome baskets.
And this isn’t anyone who disagrees with me. This is a person with a long, long track record of horrible behavior on the internet. Assuming that a dog is gonna sniff another dogs butt isn’t assuming behavior, it’s knowing dogs. Lorenz is that predictable.
And the fact that you’d defend this crap says a lot about you. Whatever it takes to win…..well, what? What the fuck does this stuff actually accomplish of any consequence? Nothing. The vast majority of potential voters give exactly zero shits about this. It’s just petty meanness for the sake of meanness.
Same when the right does it BTW, but unlike in this case you’re not so sanguine then.
Where exactly was her address posted?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/04/19/libs-of-tiktok-right-wing-media/
...I'm not seeing it.
That's because the POS pretending to be a serious newspaper you rely on revised the original article to remove it, without noting it, and then lied about doing this. https://twitter.com/JerryDunleavy/status/1516420428574646289
" Meanwhile, any criticism of her leads to “oh you’re endangering my life, you hate women, how horrible this is for me”. "
That could make her a hypocrite. Maybe even a Volokh-level hypocrite.
But it doesn't much influence whether her publication of that report was wrong.
Well I guess she does stand to gain financially, now after she has been doxxed.
Seth Dillon of the Babylon Bee has signed her to a paying gig now.
Why is that useful?
All this account is doing is cherry-picking what many might think is the ludicrous free speech of others. Why might it be necessary to know who this person is, let alone whether they are a "GOP operative"? What value does knowing their identify provide?
Why do you think many occupations, from salespersons to researchers, have to disclose all kinds of things to those they make arguments, offers, etc., to? Why do you think intelligence agencies try to find the source of bots and possible paid operatives from other nations? Why do you think political ads have that 'this ad was paid for by X' at the end?
I could go on and on. This is really not rocket science.
That's not actually "all" the account does. The account itself, from time to time, tries to get those "others" fired.
"The account itself, from time to time, tries to get those "others" fired."
The account has no ability to get anybody fired, other than by bringing the teacher's own videos to the school's attention.
And if teachers are discussing doing inappropriate things like grooming children, they should be fired.
So, in other words, the account has the ability to get people fired.
No teachers anywhere are discussing grooming children. Misusing the term "grooming" in that fashion makes you an asshole.
One of the teachers was fired for telling kids, "If your parents don't accept you for who you are, fuck them. I'm your parents now."
It seems that there are people out there who think that's something appropriate for a teacher to say.
I mean, vulgarity is not appropriate… at school. Was this teacher saying this at school? Or on TikTok on his own time?
A . . . "lawyer"?
Queenie supports revealing home addresses of people it disagrees with, so diverses can go there and throw rocks at it, and yell out quaint hood sayings.
I would like to know Queenie's home address. The purpose would be to go pick it up, and to treat it to lunch at a nice restaurant.
Cindy, if I were in town looking to buy, I would prefer to use Lott as my realtor.
It has since come out that Lorenz' doxing is a foreign intelligence operation by Germany's ministry of education.
https://gellerreport.com/2022/04/german-government-funding-hate-research-that-doxxed-libs-of-tik-tok-and-others.html/
Should it surprise anyone that fans of the Volokh Conspiracy are also fans of Pamela Geller?
I've never seen the second point occur. Revealing anther persons real name had exclusively been used in my personal experience to allow people to organize against the individual exposed in their non-anonymous lives.
The report kind of has to identify her when it reports on her past activity using different handles (such as engaging in covid, QAnon and election fraud misinformation), otherwise the journalism is open to question.
So they needed to organize a restance against her in her personal life, because who's behind compiling tiktoks of liberals embarrassing themselves is at most a personal interest story and has no real newsworthy value.
Of course it's newsworthy to report on the past of someone with this much influence.
So it's somehow newsworthy to know the real world identity of any "influential" Twitter account? Again, kind of goes against the spirit of the Twitter terms of service. Wonder whether the Trust & Safety Council will weigh in.
So, how is this past activity the least bit relevant, if the reposted Tiktok content is genuine?
Face it, it was purely to enable retaliation, so others would be deterred from doing the same.
It can speak to motivation, integrity, track record, etc.
If it's so important for the personal information (including their address) of people with influence to be publicly exposed and for their uninvolved relatives to be harassed, then why the hell does Lorenz object so dramatically when it's done to her and hers?
You can't really believe the bullshit you're spewing.
I tried, but no go. Back on ignore.
Maybe you should support your claims.
The article I read doesn't mention the address. Going to someone's registered address (the act of which IS mentioned) to ask a question is not 'harassment' of 'uninvolved relatives.'
I'm starting to think that at least 90% of people around here don't even bother checking whether the shit they complain about is even true.
Correct me:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/04/19/libs-of-tiktok-right-wing-media/
As usual, you’re late. The initial article had her address. The WaPo pulled it after it went live and re-published without the address.
This is the third time (and counting) that you've posted this same drivel. The stealth edit has was already well documented at the time of your original posting, so only by deliberate obtuseness were you able to miss that. We're all full up on stupid craziness. Perhaps you should go find your village.
Please stop saying "stealth edit." It just makes you look like an idiot. The Washington Post has editors. Editors edit. They do not "stealth edit."
"Stealth editing" is editing without a change note.
No. That's just normal newspaper editing.
Under Queenie's logic, the Jews should all need to all have a bright gold star on their clothing, because it speaks to their "motivation, integrity, track record, etc".
Argumentative speech, at least, should stand on its own merits. Highlighting the speaker's identity encourages ad hominem attacks that distract from substantive evaluation of the argument. To the extent a speaker's identity is useful, the relevant part of LibsOfTikTok's identity -- its conservative bent -- was well-known; what does the speaker's exact identity add beyond that?
Ad hominen is a fallacy of deductive logic, but as a matter of inductive logic knowing an argument comes from someone who regularly says crazy things or who is a paid hack or what have you is useful and logically appropriate.
What's your real life identity, Q-A? We'd like to know if you're someone who regularly says crazy things or who is a paid hack .
I'm that guy who used to boink your mother. The one you thought was so cool, remember?
The irony of someone enthusiastically supporting doxxing while hiding behind a pseudonymous handle is not lost on anyone here.
What might be lost on them is an ability to make basic distinctions, such as the difference between someone who is clearly seeking fame and policy change with boucoup followers including powerful pols and pundits and randos on commenting boards. I mean, it's lost on you so there's probably others!
"clearly seeking fame "
By being pseudonymous? Famous for being unknown.
It's certainly not uncommon to have people bask in the fame of their pseudonym. But again, Bob probably gets that.
I don't use a pseudonym.
Not what I said.
Fans of irony will find plenty of it to enjoy in this thread, don't you think, zztop8970?
Indeed, just as I worte. We have anonymous posters vigorously defending their own anonymity while cheering on the doxxing of others. Irony at its best
BTW, is Stephen Lathrop your real name? Care to provide your home address for us?
BTW, is Stephen Lathrop your real name?
zztop8970 — Tell you what, I'll let you see me on television. Google: Don Schollander To Tell the Truth. I'm the guy in the middle. The guy to my right is Mia Farrow's brother, by the way. He set me up for a date with her, but on her way to New York she stopped off instead in Vegas, to see Frank Sinatra. At the time, I had never heard of her. I doubt we would have hit it off.
What's your home address?
Lathrop, Queen won't answer, so I'll try you.
If it's so acceptable - no, necessary to the survival of our democracy - for people like this to have their personal info spewed all over the internet and for their uninvolved relatives to be hassled, then why does Lorenz break down into histrionics when it happens to her? I guess the Golden Rule doesn't apply here, huh?
Hmm. I've been pronouncing your name wrong in my head all this time.
Nieporent, more often than not, people reading the name pronounce it differently than folks in my line of descent do. So you are not really wrong.
The whole family in the U.S. are apparently descended from one guy who had a lot of offspring. They spelled the last name variously among them, and may have pronounced it differently too.
By the way, in my head I have you pronounced, "Neeporent." Have I got it right?
Yes. Three syllables, accent on the first syllable.
And just as you describe, there are other branches of my family in this country that pronounce it differently (and a branch that spells it without the "i".)
Not "Nyeporent?" with accent on the first syllable?
“ At the time, I had never heard of her.”
But you had to know she was pretty? How many young actresses aren’t?
Curle, checking now, I see that Mia Farrow's first film credit was a minor role in an unremembered film released just a few months prior to that program. Nobody had ever heard of her. Which is part of why I was surprised when her brother told me something like, "Turns out she's not coming to New York. She went to Vegas to see Sinatra." She married him two years later.
Fans of irony will find plenty of it to enjoy in this thread, don't you think, zztop8970?
Can you point to the comment(s) where zztop8970 was supporting doxxing, enthusiastically or otherwise?
A fallacy is essentially a violation of the rules of argumentation. Those rules (unsurprisingly) aren't uniformly agreed upon, and they vary by context. Nevertheless, there's pretty broad agreement among scholars of rhetoric and argumentation that the ad hominem is primarily a fallacy of relevance (plus some secondary civility characteristics that are less well accepted). Relevance can be at issue in all sorts contexts; it's definitely not limited to deductive arguments.
So the issue here is whether or to what extent the LibsOfTikTok's identity is relevant. I'd say the relevance is very low. The credibility of LibsOfTikTok isn't at issue. It's an account that reposts TikTok videos. And as far as I know, no one has ever contended that the videos are inauthentic or anything like that, which makes attacks on LibsOfTikTok's identity more fallacious than not. (But I wouldn't go so far as to say they're devoid of all conceivable relevance.)
Sure. Any discussion of relevance needs to start with the question: relevance to what? Her identity isn't very relevant to the question of whether a particular tiktok video she's publicizing is genuine, no. (In the absence of any reason to doubt that.) But that wasn't what Lorenz's article was about. It was about, "There's an account out there that is becoming pretty influential in political debate. Who's behind it?" It's useful to know if this is a random person who can just go on TikTok and find this stuff easily, or if this is a political operative paid to go around nutpicking.
That trivially means that the very decision to dox somebody makes their identity relevant.
This, there is a difference between unmasking someone who claims to have witnessed something and wants you to take their word for it, and unmasking someone who is making an arguement. Ironically journalism gets exactly wrong which of the two should have their identity protected.
Again, that's a massive misunderstanding of not just how logic overall works, but common sense. Why do you think there's a ton of focus on campaign disclosure laws? People want to know somethings about those who are trying to change public policy because it's quite natural to find that information useful. Are they self-interested? Are they being paid? Are they nuts in other areas? Do they have a much larger agenda? Knowing this absolutely puts their arguments in better context. Everyone knows this in everyday real life practice (it's why salespeople and other occupations have to disclose certain things).
Don't care. An arguments stand or falls on its own merits and a candidate garners my vote purely on their proposed policies. What either do outside of that window in not my business or concern.
What does the speaker's exact identity add beyond that?
1. Privately valuable self-constraint.
2. Ethos.
3. Constraint of weaponized speech targeting others.
4. An ability to understand in real-world terms interrelationships among various speakers.
5. An ability to associate the speaker in some cases with facts which imply particular ulterior motives—facts such as the speaker's office address in the Kremlin's bureau of disinformation.
6. Reduced hypocrisy.
7. Exposure of purely pecuniary motives behind false but allegedly true published assertions.
8. The identity of a person who commits libel, to facilitate suits for damages.
9. Suppression of bullying among young people.
10. Friction to slow the spread of internet swill.
11. A more wholesome climate for politics, especially on the fund-raising side.
12. Public health benefits.
Stuff like that.
We're talking about what the speaker's exact identity adds for the audience's interpretation of the speech (beyond the speaker's already-known conservative bent). Only some items you list relate to that. (4) Ok, potentially useful, unclear how much. (5) (7) Audience is already on notice to watch out for motivated reasoning. And we're talking about opinions/arguments, not "assertions"; these are persuasive or not, rather than true or not. (8) Courts can order unmasking when warranted, but opinions/arguments can't be libel.
questioner7, look up, "Logos, Ethos, Pathos"
(2) "Ethos appeals to the speaker's status or authority" -- which an anonymous account obviously doesn't, so what's the relevance?
questioner7 — The relevance is that you asked what the speaker's identity adds for the audience's interpretation of the speech. So without that, the listener knows nothing about the speaker's status or authority. Is your take on it that it's good to have no appeals to status or authority, and thus ignorance of status and authority is another of the blessings conferred by anonymity?
My take is that status and authority of the speaker is critical information, necessary to vet whatever information the speaker imparts. If you are getting ostensible secret government information, your source better be someone positioned to have access to it.
The problem with your position is that it disregards context and the different forms of argument. Identity certainly can be relevant, but it doesn't have to be.
Take your vetting claim. What vetting do you claim is at issue here? As far as I know, no one has ever claimed that false or fabricated were posted.
I'm not an absolutist on this. Sure, you can identify some relevance. After all, what if Putin himself is using deep fakes and actors on TikTok and then personally reposting the inauthentic videos on Twitter to malign the the woke left and sow dissention?! But that wispiest thread of relevance isn't strong enough to justify much.
You do realize none of that applies to a person who reposts what others say. Face it, you are just cheering for their personal destruction because they expose the insanity behind your beliefs.Leftists are evil one and all.
If it is an average speaker, sure let them remain anonymous, but when the person takes a major role, especially when they are stoking culture wars they become fair game to be publicly identified.
Who would have guessed it? There is a downside to cost-free, anonymous, world-wide publishing. Someone else could—at no cost, even anonymously—unmask you world-wide. And who knows, maybe while you were publishing anonymously, you let yourself say stuff that you would never dream of uttering if you thought people would connect your real identity to what you said. That could be a catastrophe.
What solution could there possibly be to a problem like that? How could anyone guard against it?
you let yourself say stuff that you would never dream of uttering if you thought people would connect your real identity to what you said.
Well, assuming you're using your real name here, you've been demonstrating for years that a lack of anonymity does little to dissuade many from making complete fools of themselves publicly.
The name of the tik tok lady is completely not relevant to anything.
She is not a celebrity and has no close connection to Trump or any other politician or group. She's just a rando who re-published publicly posted tik toks.
Lorenz, if she wasn't a proven sociopath, could have described her in general terms just as well. Publishing her name is 100% designed to get her harassed. Most of the legwork was done by the odious Media Matters, Lorenz was just the vehicle to broaden the reach.
"She is not a celebrity and has no close connection to Trump or any other politician or group. She's just a rando who re-published publicly posted tik toks. "
There's really no way to know this without identifying her, is it? All one would know is that there's this source of information with a huge following and which is cited a bunch by very powerful pols and pundits. Who is behind it? What's their history of arguments/actions? Are they being paid in some way? That's all useful to know in judging such an influential, well, influencer. I don't know how you could adequately report on that without identifying them.
"There's really no way to know this without identifying her, is it? "
"30ish Orthodox Jew female with a real estate license who lives in a DC suburb" would be sufficient, no?
Her name adds nothing.
If she didn't identify her name then people would be like 'how does this report know the LOTT person is 30ish, an Orthodox Jewish female who lives in a DC suburb?' The reporter would be damned either way.
"The reporter would be damned"
Well, yes, Lorenz will be.
Lorenz will be damned?
By your paltry, illusory god?
Should she also worry about accountability imposed by Batman, Wonder Woman, the Toxic Avenger, and Little Miss Muffet?
You've said that twice, but it lacks credibility. The reporter can easily say, she knows the individual, but will respect her privacy by only revealing general facts about her. "How do you know that?" is a lame excuse, since one could ask that even if the person is identified.
I think she anticipated that they still would ask, it's quite likely why she reported on the real estate license, address, etc. People were bound to say she was making up the identity so she tried to cover all the bases.
Sure thing Professor X.
I don't really find that very compelling. Reporters use anonymous sources all the time. People who want to call them liars will call them liars. People who don't, won't. There's nothing special about this story to change that dynamic.
To be clear, I also think the accusation of "doxxing" is overused, and I think that once one voluntarily enters the political arena one forfeits the right to have the media keep one's name secret. She's not a commenter on a local Facebook group; she's a prominent (if formerly pseudonymous) social media figure.
Again, why is it necessary to know whether she's a celebrity? You keep assuming your own conclusions here. Twitter is, by its very nature, an anonymous social media platform.
If the owner of this account is violating Twitter's terms of service, that's for Twitter to decide. Not a Washington Post reporter.
OK, you're just trolling or stupid, right? I've answered this about a half a dozen times with many examples. Of course, I've not said much that EV didn't say in the OP! You're repeated not acknowledging it is a classic sign of trolling or stupidity.
Oh, and this is about tiktok, not twitter.
A true journalist, doing what you say, would investigate, determine they were not some faction's operative, then drop it as they know the only reason to expose them would be to initiate intimidation. I am guessing that is not taught at journalism schools, and certainly not facetiously wrapping it in a confused overlap of freedom of speech.
Two weeks ago, Lorenz was on a news segment literally crying about the on-line harassment women suffer on a daily basis. She wants the LOTT tweeter to suffer the same. I guess she thinks when it happens to someone else, it's not really that bad.
You do know Raich has bragged about getting people fired, right? That doesn't mean Lorenz is in the right here because of that, but it's quite pot and kettle for Raich and her defenders to come at her defense this way...
“ You do know Raich has bragged about getting people fired, right?”
So she exposed misconduct? That’s awesome!
Lorenz is a hypocrite. She makes her living trashing other people but actually cries when people say mean things about her on Twitter.
Glen Greenwald had an excellent takedown of Lorenz at his substack site.
You can stop there. No.
No, he shouldn’t stop there. And you weren’t always a closed-minded lefty. Dude, what happened to you?
Your comments have always been those of a disaffected, bigoted, obsolete right-winger on the wrong side of history and the losing side of America’s culture war. What has caused this? Lousy parents? Substandard character? A deficient childhood environment in the desolate backwaters? Adult-onset superstition? Lack of education?
Not even hiding the ad-hom.
We can be sure this is true, because CindyF is actually a pseudonym for Taylor Lorenz, and therefore has deep insight into Taylor Lorenz's thinking.
This is not a simple question. Obviously, I post here anonymously, and I think that as a general rule, it is bad form to "out" people (and doxxing, which is generally considered a much more specific type of attack, wherein you are publicizing details about a person with the desire/hope/expectation that other will harass and terrify that person is just right out).
At a certain point, though, if you get to a level of significant public prominence with anonymity, you must expect to lose that anonymity. Because .... well, if you are really prominent, and involve yourself .... reporters will have a duty to find out who you are. It's like the old saw about invoking the Fifth Amendment in civil litigation- it can't be both a sword and a shield.
Here, this anonymous account-
1. Was engaged in some pretty ... interesting ... behavior, going after numerous private individuals and accusing them of "grooming" among other things.
2. Was very involved in major public events, to the extent that DeSantis's press secretary was regularly engaged with the account.
3. Recently launched a newsletter.
4. Was a regular feature on a lot of right-wing news sources.
So this was certainly newsworthy. In other words, far from being unethical, it had to be expected that journalists would seek to uncover the identity of the person.
Now, do I think Chaya Raichik wants to be named? Probably not. She choose anonymity for a reason. But ... it is also clear that she cycled through a lot of different right-wing twitter account seeking fame.
Well, she has it now. And the trouble with that fame is that people are going to want to find out who was behind the account.
Even if you uncover it, the question is whether you should publish your findings. To me, the question than is whether the identity is itself newsworthy.
Sometimes it will be. For example, an anonymous person claiming to have access to inside information about important issues (think Q). In that case, it is important to know if the person really does have that access or if they are a complete fraud.
But most of the time, knowing an anonymous poster's identity is irrelevant to what they have posted.
Totally agree. Will people interpret this tiktok (which I've never actually seen) differently now that they know the person behind it? Really? The channel's agenda was apparently clear enough, mocking liberals. Why is more needed?
In this case, however, not only is this a major issue of public concern, we've also found out:
1. This account was made by a person who previously tried to gin up other conservative issues for outrage before settling on this one.
2. This individual claimed to be at the Jan. 6 rally, and live-tweeted from it.
3. She was directly entwined with the current hot-button issue (DeSantis legislation).
4. There is apparently a nexus between her and Grant Lally (a GOP operative) who filed for the trademark ... which means that there is a high likelihood that she is operating in conjunction with some political operatives.
So ... yeah. There does seem to be more there, doesn't it? If you inject yourself into proceeding like this, and if you appear to be coordinating with GOP operatives (to the extent that they are registering your trademarks for you) then guess what? Expect people to ask questions.
Even if you uncover it, the question is whether you should publish your findings.
That seems right to me.
I'd add that a person who claims to be reporting facts, especially making accusations, might reasonably be identified.
Interestingly, Loki has, in the past, accused bloggers on this very blog of attempting to dox him, and IIRC he wasn't particularly reserved in his analysis of whether it was right or wrong.
I don't recall that.
But that wouldn't go against the criteria he set up above, even if it did happen.
This is the second time in this thread that you've commented about how you don't know about something, but opine anyway. You're on a roll!
You seemed to be implying that loki was a hypocrites. By the facts you yourself laid our, he is not.
I don't need to know about the facts to see that you're shit-stirring didn't get any on him.
You are free to draw whatever conclusions you want.
I'm just contrasting two things:
1. Loki very angry at his own imagined doxing.
2. Loki quite nuanced about a political opponent of his getting doxed.
Loki is actually Donald Trump, Jr.
I guess that explains the confusion.
Hopefully Taylor sees the justice she deserves soon.
A Pulitzer?
I am skeptical. But I have professional journalism experience, so my perspective may not be welcome at a white, male blog for disaffected, obsolete right-wingers.
Ah, so you briefly left your mother's basement at some point to deliver newspapers. This is becoming one hell of a story arc!
I was a newspaper carrier before I became a reporter and editor.
Life of Brian — folks who aren't smart enough to see professional writing aptitude in Kirkland's commentary misconstrue him in other ways too. He's often lazy and repetitive—thus a match for the lazy, repetitive character of mostly bad, mostly ideological stuff he critiques. Here and there he shows he can write. I doubt this blog shows anything like the full measure of what Kirkland could do if he wanted to. I actually wish he would show it.
I was a professional journalist, Mr. Lathrop, but that was many years -- and a couple of careers -- ago.
A strange set of circumstances enabled me to become a reporter for a big-league newspaper before I was 20 years old. I was an editor for another big--league newspaper before I graduated from college. I started as a paperboy when I was 9 or so.
I acknowledge I often take the lazy route when kicking around these slack-ja . . . . oops, sorry, forget about the hypocritical censorship imposed on liberals by Prof. Volokh . . . these easily mocked right-wingers. But I generally respond in kind, and there just isn't much high-quality content to respond to at this blog any more. I find Prof. Kerr's work interesting and important, for example, but I consider it high-quality work and am not in much position to engage at a high level on the relevant issues (never practiced criminal law, beyond a two-year internship at a district attorney's office) beyond saying I am glad someone like Prof. Kerr is thinking about them.
Scorning and ridiculing the red meat that Profs. Volokh and Blackman toss toward the clingers, and the downscale audience they are lathering into an ignorant, bigoted frenzy, however, is just so damned easy.
In another world, the better Conspirators would invite some mainstream and liberal writers to join their ranks, and this blog wouldn't be such an unalloyed right-wing shitstorm. I would enjoy that. But if anything this blog is headed in the other direction.
I respond accordingly. Perhaps I should try to do better . . . but responding in kind is, again, just so damned easy. This blog's right-wing lunacy -- and the rampant bigotry -- should not stand uncorrected, unmocked, and unchallenged. Otherwise, some unsuspecting readers might actually take this rubbish seriously.
Who else besides Professor Kerr do you appreciate, Arthur?
Shorter libs here: "she shouldn't have worn that short skirt" if she wanted to be safe
Lol, it's not surprising you don't get the line you're relying on and so inaptly invoke it here.
The "line" is a form of "victim blaming" historically directed at women who get sexually assaulted.
You, and others, are saying the woman deserves it for being a popular twitter-er.
Deserves what? Deserves to...have things known about her when she works to change policy that impacts us?
See, inapt, but again, not surprising.
Deserves whatever happens to her from revealing her address and other details, you complete dope.
Well who has argued that? See, you don't know what you're talking about.
I believe this to be a facetious statement. I cannot prove it.
Is it ethical to dox someone's otherwise anonymous online identity:
1. Are they conservative? Yes. Calling out racist, sexist, bigoted, homopobes is necessary. Silence is violence!
2. Are they leftist? No. Doing so unduly presents opportunities for racists, sexists, and bigots to target someone with unpopular opinions. Insert some stuff about freedom of speech/press if necessary.
That is all.
Pretty much this. And in particular this is a bad area for one-sided journalistic doxing if they care about people thinking them impartial. Though of course that ship has long since sailed.
compare:
Over the past few years, various Republican / conservative public events have been violently disrupted. In many of these cases, the police have been either unable or unwilling to protect the Republican / conservative participants / arrest the disruptors. It would appear that the only way Republicans / conservatives can hold a public event is to provide their own (armed) security. Of course, they can only do this if the jurisdiction in question allows the carrying of firearms in public.
Pending in the Supreme Court is a case where the court will decide whether the Second Amendment, in addition to protecting the right to keep firearms in one's home, protects the right to carry firearms in public. The ACLU has filed an amicus brief arguing against the recognition of such a right. Why? Because "restrictions on guns in public spaces are appropriate to make public spaces safe for democratic participation, including First Amendment activity such as assembly, association, and speech." Ta-dah!
https://reason.com/2021/09/23/aclu-says-second-amendment-threat-to-first-amendment/
What do you expect from the same people who think rioting is a form of free speech and have no problem with assaulting a speaker that they don't agree with just because that person dared to say something in the public square?
Ed Grinberg, the ACLU has that right. I say that as someone who rarely agrees anymore with the ACLU.
This nation is in dire need of a Peaceable Assembly law, lest present trends turn public politics into nothing better than contests decided by armed intimidation. If you already feel insecure about your safety in politics, and live in fear of armed attack by opponents, then you ought to agree with me.
A notion to ameliorate feared violence by bringing guns is unwise. If you would not fear that even more, then you don't know much about the history of public gun displays in politics.
Fans who praise anonymity on general principles should reflect whether anything would have been lost had the Declaration of Independence been published anonymously.
There are laws against threats and intimidation; and harsh criticism, short of unlawful action, is a price our people have traditionally been willing to pay for self-governance. Requiring people to stand up in public for their political acts fosters civic courage, without which democracy is doomed. For my part, I do not look forward to a society which, thanks to the Supreme Court, campaigns anonymously and even exercises the direct democracy of initiative and referendum hidden from public scrutiny and protected from the accountability of criticism. This does not resemble the Home of the Brave.
Doe v. Reed, 561 US 186 (2010) (Scalia, J., concurring).
Do you think the federal bureaucrats who lord and rule over us so much these days should get to stay anonymous as well? Is it really the Home of the Brave where a bunch of millionaire federal class morons rule us like some tyrant child-king? Without so much an ounce of accountability?
federal bureaucrats
...
millionaire
Ummmm....
In 2019, there were at least 50,000 federal bureaucrats with more than $1,000,000 in federal retirement funds. Another 250,000 have between $500,000 and $999,999.
In addition, a GS-9 with 20 years under their belt that retires at age 62 today will get more than one million in pension payments (assuming average lifespan). An upper-end GS-7 would also get more than a million dollar pension. Only 15% of government employees are below GS-7, and 20% of GS-7 or higher employees are eligible to retire with a full pension right now. Ignoring military pensions, which are possessed by about 35% of the federal workforce.
So if you assume no existing assets at all, but include retirement funds, then you are looking at more than 30% of the federal workforce that are "millionaires".
I'll take "ways to misuse words in bad faith" for $2,000, Alex.
What is "Anything Nieporent says"?
Yay, I win again!
Now that we're done playing your stupid games, do you have a valid criticism of the facts I laid out, or are you just attempting to attack me because you can't refute the truth?
more than 30% of the federal workforce that are "millionaires".
You fucking ignored any expenses, you utter troll.
I also didn't mention salaries or pets. What of it? Does a "millionaire" have some exact definition that includes expenses but not retirement funds?
You seem to think federal employees are poorly paid, when the answer is that they actually make a significant amount of money if they stick around for a full career. And most of them do stick around.
You seem to think federal employees are poorly paid,
I don't think they're a bunch of millionaires.
Maybe figure what thesis you're defending before you come in hot next time.
They are not all millionaires - but there are many of them, and mostly concentrated amongst the decision and policy makers.
You were the one that chose to challenge the idea that there were millionaire bureaucrats. I just provided some data to show you were wrong.
Millionaire does not have some exact definition. It could mean someone who has a 7 figure annual income. It could mean someone who has $1 million+ in current assets.
What it can't, and never does, mean is someone who has $1 million+ in lifetime income — let alone someone who is merely projected to earn $1 million+ over the course of their life, if he actually lives long enough.
By your logic, everyone in his 30s with a $40,000 annual salary can be described as a millionaire because he can be expected to work 25+ years and therefore earn $1,000,000+.
Hey, look who doesn't know how retirement funds work -and wants to play games with the definition of "millionaire". You're wrong there, too, though - it does not refer to income, just assets. Go ahead and use a dictionary if you want.
I counted the simple and easy assets that are published by the federal government. I didn't include any other assets, even though almost every federal employee with also have those - unless you think federal employees never own cars, houses, or cash savings. I didn't include salary (which immediately invalidates your attempt to show an error on my part).
A retirement fund, like TPS or a 401K, is certainly an asset.
A pension is also an asset.
You have to list these things when listing assets, like in bankruptcy. You can also take out loans against them - yes, including your pension. The federal government even supplies those loans for certain types of retirement benefits!
If you have a guaranteed income asset, and you can take out a loan on it right now, then yes, it counts.
Toranth, using your age 62 retirement as a benchmark, a million dollars to live, say, 25-years isn't exactly the lap of luxury—$40,000 a year, probably worth about half that or less at the end. If that's all they've got, then they are damned well going to need more from savings, or live like church mice.
Or at least invest it in something that has a rate of return higher than a pickle jar. Which is generally assumed.
Someone trying to live on a $25,000/year pension probably does not have a big fraction of that to invest.
On the other hand, I know a lot of former federal government employees who retired with 20 years of service and went on to lucrative jobs in the private sector, and their government pension is just the gravy.
I thought we were discussing people with $1M in retirement savings. Which, yes, works out to $40K a year over 25 years, but only if it's not drawing interest in the meanwhile. (And fails to take into account inflation, too: It would be worse than that if you were trying to a constant real payout for those 25 years!)
The point where I depart from Toranth's take was here:
That's an "on average", of course.
The expected pension for the federal employee described as reported by OPM is over $40K/year. And that is in addition to the several hundred thousand dollars in their federal government employee retirement fund. Did you not notice the part where I repeated the report that 300,000 federal employees had a retirement fund of $500,000 or more in 2019? That's more than 10% of all federal workers.
Should you then reflect on whether the Federalist Papers would have lost anything if not published anonymously?
I've been thinking about Publius this whole comment thread.
Publius the author of the Federalist Papers or Publius the anonymous blogger who was outed by Ed Whelan a few years back?
Or the conservative Publius whose pseudonymity Prof. Volokh fought to preserve a few years back, before he took up the cause of opposing anonymity or pseudonymity for non-conservatives?
mse326 — I have reflected on that, starting many years before the internet was a thing. A point to be made for anonymity in that case is that the folks who authored them, Hamilton and Madison particularly, were major public figures already, their names associated with widely published views.
Anonymity (which was pretty flimsy in the FP case, by the way) at least in principle bought space to let views expressed there be considered de novo, outside the context of well-known previous political positions. Reasoning on that same basis, when I was in the newspaper business, I mostly published editorials without authors' names attached—a pretty commonplace practice in newspaper publishing.
There are arguments on both sides to that. The benefits of anonymous de novo review might encourage full-strength insight into the content of each article. On the other hand, it can open the door to flummery, as it did for Hamilton.
As everyone knows, the Federalist Papers were an act of political salesmanship—offered in support of ratification for the Constitution. Hamilton was aware that many among potential fence-sitters had strong views favoring a central role for militias as guarantors of liberty. Hamilton himself thought that was poppycock, or worse. He had been a sharp and continuous critic of militias during the revolution, and judged them a threat to the security of the nation at any time.
But not in the Federalist Papers. There Hamilton was transformed into a font of just the kind of reassurances the militia fans wanted to hear. That could never have worked if he had signed, "Hamilton."
Of course, if you are a fan of the Constitution, and glad it was ratified, the Hamilton example actually makes a case for the advantages of anonymity. But it makes a contrary case with regard to the advantages of untrammeled insight available to readers shielded from knowledge of an author's identity.
It's not just the Federalist.
Common Sense, the letters of Junius, the letters from the Pennsylvania Farmer, and the majority of revolutionary pamphlets were all published anonymously.
Opponents of anonymity on general principles should reflect on whether the robust debate in the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers would have been more or less effective if they had been forced to publish with attributions.
Different documents for different purposes so it's not surprising that you get different results.
But more importantly, the signers of the Declaration of Independence chose to do so publicly.
But more importantly, the signers of the Declaration of Independence chose to do so publicly.
Because they were wise, and courageous besides. Do you advocate they should have been less wise? Do you suppose internet anonymity seekers risk more than did those signers? What's your point?
Rossami, the Anti-Federalist Papers were not a thing in history. Their identification and combination was a mostly-arbitrary project accomplished in the latter half of the 20th century. There is not agreement which contributions belong. There is not agreement which pseudonymous papers were the works of which authors. Aside from opposition to ratification of the Constitution, often poorly argued, there is not much thematic development to recommend that amorphous compendium.
To say that does not imply, of course, that there were not also strongly made and influential arguments against the Constitution. The nation owes the Bill of Rights to those. It is just to say that there is no meaningful equivalence to the Federalist Papers, which were a historical phenomenon—a joint project at the time they were written—and often brilliantly argued. They offer the further advantage that they are a record made by the side which won the constitutional debate.
A related question: When is it hypocritical?
Given that Taylor Lorenz is constantly publicly sobbing about how she has PTSD from being criticized on the internet, I'd say it's pretty clearly the case here.
Did Lorenz not sign her bylines or something and then got identified and then harassed?
You're not very bright, are you.
you've only figured this out now ? 🙂
Just dive right in with the demonization.
I don't know this lady, maybe she sucks. But this has nothing to do with the question at hand, it's just petty Internet bullshit.
As loki said, it's not an easy issue. I guess that's why you prefer to just throw poop at the partisan on the other side.
"I don't know this lady, maybe she sucks."
Well, educate yourself. Plenty of material.
I'm proud to say I don't care enough to.
The general issue is interesting. Whatever slap fight is going on is not.
"I'm proud to say I don't care enough to."
But you care enough to comment on the topic, and then tell us you don't care?
Can you fucking read? The general issue is interesting
My issue was not your factual analysis of the topic, it was how you jumped right into irrelevant character attacks like a pig who lova tha slop.
Which is your right, as it is mine to point out how lame that is.
You don't know anything about the issue, but you know it's irrelevant?
I posted about the issue below. The issue is a general question about ethics, with the anecdote as only a motivating anecdote.
You didn't even really talk about the anecdote, just one of the people involved. And then one of the commenters here. And then some random other news stories you dug up.
Because while I don't care about this particular spat, you don't seem to care about the issues, just which people are on your side and which deserve some mud thrown their way.
"I don't know this lady, maybe she sucks."
I do. As I said, she's constantly on every form of media you can imagine sobbing about harassment whenever somebody criticizes her. That's why I made the comment.
You know, if you don't know about something, you don't have to comment.
Why is this relevant?
Why are personal details about someone who makes public statements ever relevant?
If it's plausibly ethical to reveal an anonymous speaker a personal details for whatever reason, the recent hypocrisy of a public speaker/writer is even more relevant.
You don't see the contrast between Taylor Lorenz and the NYT claiming that "attacking" (criticizing) her leads to harassment, and Taylor Loranz "attacking" this woman, in a way that's calculated to lead to harassment?
I don't see how that has anything to do with the issue in the OP.
Lorenz very publicly complained about how terrible harassment is. Then she harassed someone in the way mentioned in the OP. That says a lot about both the answer to the question in the OP and the broader context of it.
That says a lot about both the answer to the question in the OP
No, it does not.
As usual, you have no real argument, so you just resort to loudly asserting things.
Do you also think the fact that the Washington Post stealth-edited the article that inspired this says nothing about the answer to the question in the OP?
You just stating that this woman's hypocrisy says a lot about the ethics of doxxing does not make it so.
You laid out no connection, just stated it was true.
My level of engagement was commensurate with your level of effort.
If you lay out an argument, I'd be happy to agree/disagree and explain my issue.
This reads like the Monty Python argument skit.
No, you mean the Monty Python disagreement sketch.
(Sarcastr0 often sounds like that guy.)
Hypocritical? I was thinking more manichean. Perhaps speech has no practical value to her except when it is her crowd correcting the perceived errors of others? To be questioned simply establishes her sacrifice and by extension her virtue. The word hypocrisy may have no meaning for her except as an characteristic of those she’s unfairly expected to tolerate.
The Democrat IRS and DOJ are up next to harass her.
Most of this blog is hypocritical right-wing grievance theater.
Not that there is anything wrong with that.
They're too busy now figuring out what to charge Elon with. Easiest way to distract the DOJ is to hang a noose somewhere.
It would not take a seasoned lawyer more than a few hours to identify the securities laws Elon Musk violates with remarkable regularity.
I hope people haven’t forgotten Volokh’s own notoriety in enabling anonymous speech (no not in the comments), and the controversy it caused when an academic doxxing was proposed by Brian Leiter:
So who is Juan Non-Volokh? I intend to find out and to post that information here in due course. I welcome your help...and I promise to keep my sources secret!
Until he comes out of hiding, however, I'm done commenting on Mr. Non-Volokh's displays.
Of course Juan Non-Volokh for those of you who weren’t around then turned out to be Jonathan Alder, who was worried about his radical right wing views keeping him from obtaining tenure and a decent gig at a good law school.
That’s what used to pass as a right wing radical 15 or 20 years ago in law schools.
Whoops, the link above goes to the wrong Leiter post, but it’s not hard to find, so I’m not going to repost it. At least it’s not a Rick Roll.
But it interesting that what got Leiter so incensed is that Alder quoted Clayton Cramer about academic infatuation about Nazi’s in the 30’s. I’m sure Leiter would still disagree, and maybe Alder no longer agrees, but I think Cramer’s conclusion has held up, at least when it came to choosing sides during Trumps spat with China:
“I would agree that nothing has really changed; academics are overwhelmingly on the side of totalitarian thugs throughout the world--but not on the side of George Bush.”
Three things-
1. Always find a better source than Clayton Cramer. Always.
2. I think that Leiter's outing of Juan Non-Volokh was shameful. (Which leads to ....)
3. These things are always fact-dependent. But one common similarity, IMO, is the intention of the person breaking the anonymity. If it is something done (as was done by Leiter) out of spite, it's always bad. It's that impulse people have when they are angry- "I'm going to get you!!!!!"
But when you have interjected yourself into a national issue, or you have become a national issue, then you can no longer depend on the cloak of anonymity- because the job of journalists is to uncover the identity of the person, especially where (as here) that is newsworthy.
Well as I recall Leiter was not successful in his outing attempt and Alder outed himself when he got a tenured position at Case.
But a proposed outing soliciting anonymous tips is just as reprehensible as a successful one. Especially when it's avowed purpose is to harm someone's career prospects, over an internet spat.
"These things are always fact-dependent. But one common similarity, IMO, is the intention of the person breaking the anonymity. If it is something done (as was done by Leiter) out of spite, it's always bad."
And Lorenz gave away her intent when she linked to a page that included not just the person's name, but home address and real estate license number.
Wapo stealth-edited the article to remove it.
Wapo stealth-edited the article to remove it.
Someone tell Jason Cavanaugh…
No, they edited it.
I very likely would have refrained from publishing the address were I the reporter or editor. It is not greatly surprising that the Post -- one of the world's few greatest newspapers -- edited the article in that manner.
"No, they edited it."
Sigh. Editors can record edits that they make to articles with notes and such, or they can choose not to. The latter is called a stealth edit.
No charge for the lesson in internet lingo.
Sigh. Nobody calls it that. All newspaper stories are routinely edited without "notes." There is a correction appended if there is a factual error, or an editor's note if substantive new information is added (like when a subject of the story didn't comment by press time but then later did).
Disagree. Just having a contrary opinion on a matter is not justification for doxing. Anonymity is only a problem if the anonymity provides a cover for violence. That would be actual violence not the liberal invented kind where free speech, e.g. an opinion they don't like, is labelled violent.
What about doxxers, should they be doxxed back?
This is actually not easy when generalized beyond an individual anecdote where you can pick out the heroes and villains so easily.
The doxers fired the first shot. As self defense I would dox them back sure. It's like mom telling to ignore the bully in school and dad telling you that at some point you have to kick his ass.
Dad is right. Fighting is generally bad but sometimes necessary.
Didn't this libsoftiktok account highlight random teachers' accounts and link to their school districts?
So they linked "random" teachers or teachers that re engaged in sexual identity training of elementary school kids? Because just random would be so what right? School Board would be nice dancing cat video on to other business.
But up to no good would not and thank you LOTT for that service.
This contradicts your previous position on doxxing ('Just having a contrary opinion on a matter is not justification for doxing.')
This is not surprising, because it's not actually about free speech for you at all.
1. Random is not the same as anonymous.
2. Sometimes doxing is justified. Were any of these teachers committing or discussing misconduct or poor work performance in their videos?
Point 3) Publicizing such names can hold the speaker accountable for the content of their speech as well as the manner in which it is conveyed. An individual who posts anonymously and, upon being publicly named, experiences social backlash, may seek to modify their speech (and criticisms) in a way that does not jeopardize their social standing. In other words, the speaker might adjust their behavior so that it is more in-line with who they wish to be perceived as.
The broader question is fact-based, and encompasses judgements that I'm not sure can ever be reduced to objective standards.
For doxxing, I wonder if a decorum/courtesy paradigm is better. Less objective, but just as amenable to social control, if not more so because it's less academic.
I think there's a reason those on here who claim to have discarded ethics still don't cross the doxing line.
Sarcastr0, believe it or not, I tend to agree here = For doxxing, I wonder if a decorum/courtesy paradigm is better. Less objective, but just as amenable to social control, if not more so because it's less academic.
I know - it's a pretty good, nonpartisan take!
Thanks for replying - plenty of interesting OPs, but the replies are all at the partisan ones.
I'm more guilty than most on that front.
I had to think about this a little. As a general proposition, I disapprove of doxxing - especially the publishing personal information like home address or work. As a legal matter, I would take no action to stop it. We either have free speech, or we do not.
I much prefer social mores to enforce this kind of thing.
FWIW: here's what a person on the left said when Ed Whelan, a person on the right, outed (or "doxxed," if you prefer, though I hold with those who reserve that term for disclosure of personal identifying information such as home address and phone number, names and schools of children, etc.) an anonymous blogger on the left: "What Whelan did added nothing to his or anyone else's arguments about the law. He had no reason to do this, other than pique. He outed publius as a law professor, but he also outed himself as a petulant bully. I hope he likes the publicity."
Source: https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2009/06/outing-publius.html
So for a consistency check, substitute "Taylor Lorenz" for "Whelan," "LibsofTikTok" for "publius," and "public policy" for "the law." If your gut responds to both the same way, congratulations, you aren't a hack without principles. If it responds differently, you might want to look to that.
I have to ask (seriously) .... did you read the source that you linked to? As was discussed back there, the people criticizing Whelan asked the following questions-
(1) Should people blog under pseudonyms?
(2) If someone blogs under a pseudonym, should s/he expect not to be outed?
(3) If you find out the real name of a pseudonymous blogger, should you reveal it?
Notably, they answered the questions like this:
Personally, I think that the answers to these questions are: (1) if they want to; (2) not if s/he has decent circulation, and (3) not absent a compelling reason.
Do you see something there? Look at (2) and (3). This is fact-dependent.
Or, as I put it earlier- if something becomes newsworthy (decent circulation) and there is a compelling reason to break the anonymity (like the person appears to be coordinating with current events AND is giving "anonymous" interviews AND their material is a fixture in the media) then maybe?
After reading your source, do you really think this is identical?
Insofar as there was no compelling reason to out either Publius or TLOTT, absolutely.
Apologies, but you seem to have missed the point.
You cited X for a proposition.
If you read X, you would see that they laid out specific criteria. Which are different than what you said.
Now you've got new criteria that you've made up.
But, assuming you actually care, even if you wrap up the "compelling reason" there are arguable reasons. The main being that:
1. Chaya Rachik was attacking other people (and admittedly trying to end their careers) through the cloak of anonymity; and
2. She was also publicly involved with major political issues (and political players); and
3. She was regularly cited by major news sources; and
4. She was giving interviews (as TLOTT) to news sources; and
5. She apparently was using a GOP operative to secure legal rights to her operation.
Again, you can't use it (anonymity) as both a sword and a shield. Once you enter the political arena at a certain level, you have to expect that journalists will try to find out who you are.
Whether or not you think this is compelling enough for you, I can't imagine that you think that this is surprising?
And you're doing many of the same things here. Mind if we dox you and harass your family? If you do, then spare us the sanctimony. if you don't, then please post your real name and address so we can evaluate your credibility and conflicts as a source.
*crickets*
What are you talking about? The specific criteria set out in "X" were:
(1) Should people blog under pseudonyms?
(2) If someone blogs under a pseudonym, should s/he expect not to be outed?
(3) If you find out the real name of a pseudonymous blogger, should you reveal it?
And the answers given by hilzoy were: "(1) if they want to; (2) not if s/he has decent circulation, and (3) not absent a compelling reason. "
I said that there was no compelling reason to out either Publius or LibsofTikTok, which would mean that under hilzoy's Criterion No. 3, Lorenz, having found out the real name of the latter, should not have revealed it. (The fact that, under hilzoy's Criterion No. 2, LibsofTikTok can't reasonably expect not to be outed doesn't affect the moral judgment falling on those who do the actual outing. If I walk through a bad neighborhood wearing a short sleeve shirt and a Rolex prominently displayed on my wrist, I shouldn't expect not to be relieved on my Rolex, but the person who steals it is still a bad person for doing so.)
Hilzoy went on to explain: "Of course, there are compelling reasons: if it turned out that an anonymous blogger on a white supremacist site was in fact the person in charge of the Department of Justice's Civil Rights Division, that would be worth knowing," but none of the reasons you cite as "compelling" in LibsofTikTok's case are at all analogous. And so, hilzoy's conclusion that "absent some such reason, I think that people's own decisions about what to reveal should be respected" is fully applicable here.
Finally, hilzoy's final paragraph can readily be adapted to apply to the Lorenz/LibsofTikTok situation:
"What [Lorenz] did added nothing to his or anyone else's arguments about [the alleged 'grooming' and 'indoctrination' of children on LGBT rights]. [She]had no reason to do this, other than pique [and a wish to punish]. [She] outed [LibsofTikTok] as a [Brooklyn real-estate agent], but [s]he also outed himself as a petulant bully. I hope [s]he likes the publicity."
(1) Unless they're independently wealthy or have the protection of something like tenure, or are left-wing, yes, absolutely they should.
I've told my son that if he wants to do any blogging or blog commenting, he should establish a pseudonym, and be very disciplined about using an anonymizing proxy and avoiding hints to his identity. If I knew then what I know now, that's what I would have done, commenting under my own name has already resulted in at least one attempt to get me fired. (By somebody using a burner email account and fake name, naturally.)
When I started on the internet, I already had a track record in meat space that I figured would make me one of the first people they'd come for if things got ugly, and I was thinking in terms of government retaliation for my speech, not private. So I didn't bother. Boy, was I ever wrong about where the real threat lay.
(2) In a normative sense, sure. In terms of real world expectations, he should expect to be outed unless he's careful not to offend the left.
(3) *I* wouldn't.
This seems to be an issue with left-wing journalists. I recall Nikole Hannah-Jones doxing a reporter for the free beacon, and then lying about it.
::eyeroll::
I'll bet it's an issue with people who are terminally online, which is a bipartisan disease.
Either way, journalists lying (and their employers allowing them to lie) is pretty bad for the institution.
As usual, you're generalizing from a single badly-sourced anecdote.
I'm thinking they may have tolerated more than just the one lie.
So the answer regarding unsupported generalizing is yes.
Falsa in uno falsa in omnibus.
Saying it in Latin doesn't mean you established anything at all about journalists with your single anecdote.
Then it's a good thing I didn't say anything about all journalists.
There was a Time article after the 2020 election that bragged about how the media including journalists lied/slanted news to support "the Party" aka Democrat party and Joey B because all was supposedly ethical because of Trump.
Something tells me your take may not be exactly what the article said.
Hearing voices? You're wrong
Link the article then.
Time, Molly Ball, election 2020 you have Google.
Oh, you mean the article about the incredible effort to maintain ballot access during Covid?
Where does that have anything to say about 'journalists lied/slanted news to support "the Party" aka Democrat party?'
You must be referring to something else:
“In a way, Trump was right,” writes Time national political correspondent Molly Ball. “There was a conspiracy unfolding behind the scenes.” She later describes this “conspiracy” as something that “sounds like a paranoid fever dream — a well-funded cabal of powerful people, ranging across industries and ideologies, working together behind the scenes to influence perceptions, change rules and laws, steer media coverage and control the flow of information.”
Dude sometimes you just have to give it up. I know your schtick is snarky lib contrarian. Media coverage was a coordinated bias effort. Parler just wasn't cancelled without a "conspiracy". They do exist.
Hot take - your quote is directly from The Federalist. Maybe not something that should be taken as gospel.
You do realize how *clearly* out of context that quote is, right? 'Sounds like' does not mean 'totally is.'
Give it up and embrace your media conspiracy theory? LOL.
There was no such Time article. Wreckinball is lying. He should go back to whining that people aren't talking about nonexistent political prisoners from 1/6.
Well I agree with you there, being terminally online has a lot of manifestations, and most of them have little to do with politics.
1. When I started commenting on VC, I decided to do so under my own name, to discourage myself from exercising my unfortunate tendency toward smart-ass-ery. Don't know if I succeeded.
2. When I read anonymous comments or opinions here or elsewhere I don't assume that the commenters have any special authority or qualifications for their opinions. They are just opinions. And I think most rational people treat them that way,
3. Therefore, if you "out" some commenter as a right-wing fanatic or left-wing loony, you probably haven't accomplished anything with respect to that commenter's audience. If the commenter's comments come from a conservative religious perspective, revealing that he/she/it is a religious conservative doesn't undermine the message; similarly for comments from a left-wing pagan perspective.
4. The situation is different if the anonymous commenter claims to have special insider information. If the commenter insists on anonymity, then I ignore his/her/its claim of having insider information. You should, too, even if the comments support your positition.
Those are generally good points.
How many pagans (distinct from Pagans) has anyone encountered in the United States since, say, 1850? Or should that be 1750?
(Watching that video was the first time I recognized that Steppenwolf was George Thorogood's side gig -- or is that George's brother?)
George is currently touring. I saw him again a few months ago; have tickets for another show in a couple of months. A better showman, or practitioner of the Chuck Berry arts, would be difficult to find.
(That's John Lee Hooker's House Rent Blues before the bourbon, scotch, and beer)
Amused to see the people desperate to publicize the Trump whistleblower's name suddenly arguing that the identity of people saying things doesn't matter.
(And that's even though they knew — indeed, it was part of their indictment of him — that the whistleblower was reporting secondhand information.)
The whole basis for Vindman's claims being newsworthy was that he was supposed to be personally credible, because the other evidence disagreed with him. The whole basis for LibsOfTikTok's claims being newsworthy is that they provide links to the original videos so that people can assess them first-hand.
That's great, except that Vindman wasn't the whistleblower.
Whatever. Pick the name of your favorite political oathbreaker. There credibility rides on who they are, not on what they say.
Yes, but he was THE person in the US government with a rock solid understanding of the role of the “international consensus” in our constitutional scheme of government. Were you going to advise Congress on the “international consensus” (copyright)? I think not.
No mere presumptuous goofball was he but an titan bestriding the globe.
Everyone knew the name. It was like the temporary anonymity of Ashli Babbitts shooter.
It was pseudo anonymity, of a sort that's worse than useless. It didn't keep people from finding out the name, but it DID provide millions of people with the blatantly obvious spectacle of one media outlet after another conspiring to hide a fact, right out in the open.
Which naturally led to the conclusion that it wasn't unreasonable to think they were conspiring to hide facts covertly.
Huh? The Trump whistleblower's name was public, it was available in 5 seconds to anybody who wanted to google it.
Keeping it out of the hearings and media articles was pure theater.
And this is a twitter account, not a source for information in a Presidential impeachment.
If you are a big-time reporter who recently went on national TV to cry because people criticized you online, supposedly causing other people to be mean to you, you should wait a decent interval before setting out to destroy an anonymous private individual who does nothing other than link to things other people post online.
I know nothing about the specific controversy that inspired this post. To the general question, my default position is that it is almost always unethical to publicly identify an anonymous poster. Ideas and comments should be evaluated on their own merits. Even people I disagree with on almost everything can be right about sometimes. If being anonymous lets us find those points of commonality, that's a positive. We should honor requests for privacy because it generally improves the quality of discussion.
The few exceptions that come to mind:
- Uncovering sock-puppet accounts is a social good. Posting anonymously has value to fair evaluation of ideas. Posting from multiple accounts to make it appear that your opinions are more popular than they really are diminishes that value. But uncovering sock-puppets just means connecting anonymous (or pseudonymous) accounts - it does not require revealing the puppetmaster's real identity.
- Uncovering admissions of crimes or unethical behavior. This is a far higher standard than merely unpopular speech. But if the mayor starts posting "anonymous" pictures of cocaine-and-hooker parties, that's fair game for any investigative journalist.
For your average "woke" SJW, saying something politically-incorrect definitely qualifies as "unethical behavior." (If they have their druthers, it'll actually be a crime.)
I don't know if I agree with #2 except maybe with respect to politicians and other public figures engaged in hypocritical behavior. Otherwise, if it is something that seems serious enough to involve the police, you should involve the police and let them uncover the miscreant's identity. But posting the identity of the guy who has been anonymously reviewing the local massage parlors (and who happens to also be your a-hole neighbor) does not seem right to me.
My other category of "ethical unmasking" would be people that claim inside knowledge (like Q) -- if they turn out to be frauds, or if they turn out to be abusing their position (like IRS leakers).
I do not trust the media to behave in an ethical way and they can really ruin someone's life by identifying their private speech. If a person is not a public figure, they have the right to expect speech they want to be private to remain private, excepting illegal things.
If the media have nothing better to do than look for the identity of an anonymous poster and then publicize the person's name while knowing the negative consequences it will have on the person's life, this only speaks to the fact that the media have little to no ethics and do not actually care about the public good. After all, who has never posted something online that they regret which, taken out of or maybe even in context, could be seen as going against societal standards whether now or in the future?
"The [New York] Times no longer reports news about the president: It berates other journalists for reporting news about the president."
https://anncoulter.com/2022/03/23/protecting-biden-is-a-full-time-job-for-the-times/
Nobody has a right to expect speech posted on the Internet to remain private.
It's rarely illegal, always unethical when done by the Establishment press, but ultimately a waste of time because it really doesn't matter who the anonymous speaker is, what matters is that they are flicking their fingers right in the faces of power which is enormously satisfying and fun to watch.
Signed,
Mrs. Silence Dogood
Ironically, the doxxing will have a kind of Barbara Streisand effect. People who had never heard of LibsofTikTok will now hear about it because of the doxxing scandal, and check it out. So the doxxing may have the opposite effect of that intended.
I have no real opinion on the issue of revealing the identity of the LibsOfTiktok account (I lean against it though) but will note this.
The comments here feel super partisan. Just so much petty sniping back and forth.
Not everything has to be some sort of partisan/ideological competition/struggle.
Is there anything left of the Volokh Conspiracy that isn’t low-quality partisan sniping?
Other than the regular publication of vile racial slurs, of course.
Low quality posting like the repetitive slogan slinging you do .
That level of ignorance is just what The Volokh Conspiracy seeks among its fans.
(You have no idea how difficult is it to avoid using the term “sl_ck-j_wed” when describing your followers, Prof. Volokh — or perhaps you knew precisely how difficult it would be, and that is why you imposed the censorship and forbade me to use that term when describing conservatives at your blog. If so, deftly played, Prof. Volokh!)
Maybe one of your fellow clingers could explain it to you, wreckinball.
Yet you provide nothing, absolutely nothing constructive. No counter points just cut and paste repeat slogans and name calling.
You're actually alone in this regard. Even Tony attempts to make a point
" Yet you provide nothing, absolutely nothing constructive. "
You don't consider my periodic references to the list of "states ranked by educational attainment" to be constructive, factual, and illuminative?
Where's Kuckland at these days? He's better.
No, but the doxxers here ensured this was a partisan/ideological competition/struggle. Democracy Dies In Darkness!
Of course it's partisan. How could it be otherwise? Doxing is a weapon that's virtually only used by the left, so the left-wingers tend to defend it, and the right-wingers oppose it.
Doxing is a weapon that's virtually only used by the left.
You going to provide any evidence for that spicy take, or is it just your general sense is strong enough you don't need to establish this stuff.
As I said above, doxxing is about being terminally online, and that is bipartisan (and as Kaz pointed out, largely nonpartisan).
"Terminally online"? What does that even mean?
"Doxing" is about exposing the true identity of the anonymous, usually with enough additional information that anybody who wants to attack them can find them. It's basically providing targeting information to any lunatics out there, while pretending you're not doing anything threatening yourself.
And, yes, you'll have to look long and hard to find any examples of it being committed by the right.
So no proof then, other than an airy negative claim you've never seen it on the right.
How soon you forget 'Tiller the Baby Killer' and putting his freaking address up there.
Also, here's what a moment of google turned up:
https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgm3xx/far-right-groomers-doxxing-school-officials
As loki said in the last thread, it's not a simple bright-line. Someone hiding behind anonymity to foment Jihad or race war, who would be inhibited by their identity being known, it seems an injustice *not* to dox them.
This is an issue, and an important one. Partisanizing it removes it from that arena.
Terminally online encompasses not just the Glenn Greenwalds out there who are on twitter seemingly 24-7 in these dumbass flame wars with randos, but also like video game players with twitch streams and instragram influencers. You and I may not know or care who they are, but there's plenty of doxing drama there as well
He also forgets the stalking and death threats by MAGA people against state elections officials (and sometimes just random state election workers).
I don't assume they forget. I assume they're incapable of processing the information in the first place.
"Terminally online" What does that even mean?"
It means spending your whole day on a comments thread on a blog, like many of us here.
Or all day on a flame war on Twitter.
Or checking every 2 minutes to see if someone liked your picture on FB or IG.
Or ... well you get the idea. It's people who's online life is more real and fulfilling and takes up more of their time effort and consciousness than their real life, or at least an outsized bite of it.
Those things are aspects of it, but I think the real issue is people who confuse things that happen online for real life. There can be some major viral news story on social media in which all the terminally online people know exactly who did what to whom, who started it, the consequences they suffered, etc., and the T.O. people think this is a major national controversy that everyone is weighing in on… and yet normal people have no idea that the story even existed.
That happens because if it's a major national controversy, the mainstream media cover it up.
Doxing is unethical. You're trying to organize a mob to go harass someone.
Good observation above is that doxing and mob aggression is solely or almost solely done by the left.
Reason undoubtedly has uncovered the couple of exceptions to this rule and wrote a "both sides" article but it is one sided.
Yea, I know J6 Insurrection (shhh Professor can't write about it) which wasn't and is being uncovered as instigated by the Feds.
Oh yea the Whitmer Fed-napping, ha ha fake.
But doxing, mob violence ,destroying property, lives is a thing of the left
Libs of Tik Tok is really a bad situation because what exactly are they guilty of? They are not spreading lies. They merely show exactly what was said then and what is said now. Hypocrisy is at ridiculous kevels I would say dangerous since our justice department is also hypocritical so IMO its a service.
The doxers are now running around making up fake tweets to frame them as anti-gay or something.
Thankfully, they're not in a really bad situation now, because the CEO of the Babylon Bee has declared he'll pay her to do it full time as her job.
I mean, that doesn't protect her from lunatics who now know where she lives, but at least she can stop worrying about how she's paying for her next meal.
Good for her. Sounds like a good match although its not fake news. Maybe "Not the Bee".
He's doing it personally, not as part of the site.
I believe the argument for suppressing her is that her posts lack "context" and are therefore "misleading."
Summary of this "controversy" is as follows:
Liberals all over were going hard against parent's rights to decide how their tax dollars were used to educate their own children, with a pathetic talking point of "but nobody is teaching sexual topics to inappropriate ages, or attempting to indoctrinate them with insane transgender ideology, it's all in your imagination and your laws are not needed! Can you point to a single example, hmmm?"
This person on Twitter then proceeds to post thousands of examples. This of course causes liberals to fly into a fit of blind rage, so they proceed to personally attack and attempt to silence the twitter user.
All of you supporting this crap (Queen, Lathrop, Loki, etc) should be pleased to know that the digital lynch mob is doling out punishment for this wrongthink. This was of course as predictable as the sunrise, but based on their post Queen funds it astonishing.
Also predictably they’re beating up wrong Chaya. But what is the importance the quality of life of an innocent when compared to the requirement to punish someone who don’t think right. Along with anyone with the same name.
The whole point of the investigation was to intimidate and shut it down...because this wasn't about journalism but activism using journalism as a shield. The wapo like most corporate media outlets is pushing narratives not facts. The concern around pushing trans by teachers in elementary school must be quashed..even if it means ensuring said teachers own words are not ever shared. We should remember elementary teachers has the lowest SAT scores but most inflated beliefs in their own importance.
What exactly do you mean by "corporate media"? Do you know of any media outlets that are not incorporated?