The Volokh Conspiracy
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On Removing Conflict of Laws from the Bar Exam
Will the field survive if it is not a "bar class"?
Law.com has a story about a major planned reform to the multistate bar exam:
A new bar exam slated to debut in 2026, which will test more skills and fewer subjects than its current incarnation, is now ready for public comment from legal professionals.
The National Conference of Bar Examiners has asked the legal community to weigh in on preliminary outlines of exam content that, once finalized, will guide future test takers, law schools and exam drafters as the new exam approaches.
The NCBE, which develops bar exam content for 54 U.S. jurisdictions, has published the preliminary Content Scope Outlines for the next generation of the bar exam on its website. The bar is the test of legal skills and knowledge that most U.S. attorneys must pass before licensure.
NCBE is asking members of the U.S. legal community to review and comment on the Content Scope Outlines. The comment period will be open until April 18.
One of several changes would be the removal of conflict of laws and several other subjects from the exam:
The most noticeable change to the content planned for the new exam is the number of subjects tested, which will decrease to 8 from 12: civil procedure, contract law (including Article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code), evidence, torts, business associations (including agency), constitutional law (including proceedings before administrative agencies), criminal law and constitutional protections of accused persons, and real property, according to NCBE.
NCBE states that the new exam will no longer test conflict of laws, family law, trusts and estates, or secured transactions, and will test some legal concepts more deeply than others.
Apparently (according to the story) this decision reflects the conclusion that conflicts and the other disfavored subjects do not arise sufficiently frequently or sufficiently universally, or that it is not important to know much about them when they do arise.
I confess that I am a little surprised at this conclusion about conflicts. Many transactions and incidents involve at least glancing contact with multiple jurisdictions, and the legal principles for what state can govern those transactions are not at all intuitive. (See this earlier post on this year's Supreme Court conflicts case.) Indeed, my experience is that lawyers who have no knowledge of the field of conflict of laws often do not even know that they have encountered a conflict of laws question.
But the bar committee presumably studied this question carefully, so I will assume that they know what they are doing. I am more interested in the possible consequences of removing conflict of laws from the bar exam.
If this change goes through, I suspect it might fully bury the scholarly study of conflicts as a field. Already, the field is regarded as something of an intellectual backwater, as I learned a decade ago when I naively told people I wanted to be a conflicts professor and learned how unfashionable and undemanded that was. One of the few countervailing forces generating any demand for conflicts professors is the sense at at least some law schools that they should probably have at least some faculty members who can teach the "bar classes." If conflicts ceases to be a "bar class," I'd predict the number of conflicts courses and conflicts professors slowly dwindles to zero.
I'm not saying that's a reason not to reform the bar exam, which should serve the interests of the public, not the interests of law professors. But it does mean that the important ideas and observations about conflicts might have to be assimilated into other fields, like constitutional law and federal courts and civil procedure, if they are not to be forgotten entirely.
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The most validated test on earth, the IQ, was banned from schools because of racial disparity. It was used to help diverses get more services, not to damage them.
The racial disparity in the pass rates of the bar exam is far worse. Failing it has severe damaging consequences to one's ability to do one's profession. The most powerful is predictive validity. The IQ at 7 predicts your station in society at 50. Can someone provide these measurements for the bar exam? The bar exam is a racially discriminatory garbage exam for a racially discriminatory garbage profession.
Before validating a test, one must find it reliable across these measures: https://letstryandenjoy.blogspot.com/2022/03/reliability-and-types-of-reliability.html
"Test retest
Measure of stability
It is established by determining the relationship between scores resulting from administrating the same test, to the same group at different times.
Split half reliability
Measure of internal consistency
Split half reliability is determined by establishing the relationship between scores on two equivalent halves of a test administrated to a group at one time
parallel form reliability
Measure of internal consistency
In parallel form reliability we create two different tests from the same contents to measure the same learning outcomes.
Equivalent reliability
Measure of equivalence
Equivalent forms of tests are two sets that are identical in every way except for the actual items included.
Internal consistency
Measure of internal consistency
The test is administered to a group of students on one occasion to estimate reliability
Kuder-Richardson
Measure of internal consistency
Its measurer’s reliability from a single administration of a test with the help of formulas"
Once reliabilities are found to be adequate, these validation measures are required.
https://ebn.bmj.com/content/ebnurs/18/3/66.full.pdf
"construct validity:
1 Homogeneity—meaning that the instrument measures one construct.
2 Convergence—this occurs when the instrument measures concepts similar to that of other instruments.
Although if there are no similar instruments available this will not be possible to do.
3 Theory evidence—this is evident when behaviour is
similar to theoretical propositions of the construct
measured in the instrument. For example, when an
instrument measures anxiety, one would expect to
see that participants who score high on the instrument for anxiety also demonstrate symptoms of anxiety in their day-to-day lives.
2 The final measure of validity is criterion validity. A criterion is any other instrument that measures the same
variable. Correlations can be conducted to determine the
extent to which the different instruments measure the
same variable. Criterion validity is measured in three
ways:
1 Convergent validity—shows that an instrument is
highly correlated with instruments measuring similar
variables.
2 Divergent validity—shows that an instrument is
poorly correlated to instruments that measure different variables. In this case, for example, there should
be a low correlation between an instrument that measures motivation and one that measures self-efficacy.
3 Predictive validity—means that the instrument
should have high correlations with future criterions.2
For example, a score of high self-efficacy related to
performing a task should predict the likelihood a
participant completing the task."
If the bar pass rate correlates with the IQ test, it is primae facie evidence of race discrimination. Larry P v Riles (1979) was denied Cert at the Supreme Court. It stands as precedent, and has been confirmed several times. It deterred the IQ test to place diverse students in advanced classes as well as from getting special education help.
"...the bar exam, which should serve the interests of the public, not the interests of law professors."
The bar exam is a regurgitation of the IRAC approach taught in law school. The bar exam is nearly unrelated to the practice of law. I urge Criminal Procedure students to spend half a day in traffic court, the criminal procedure affecting nearly every driving adult. They will see nothing they have learned in class. Nothing they see will have been covered in class. They will see a machine making $20000 an hour, with 3 minute trials, scoring $400 each. Anyone who asserts any legal right and slows down this machine, will be bullied, intimidated, and crushed.
And then you get assigned a misdemeanor or low level felony case by a judge, because the PDs don’t have the manpower, and everyone is guaranteed assistance of counsel in a criminal case. You try to beg off, because you are, say, a tax attorney. Nope says the court. Your specialization was your choice. But what if I commit malpractice? You do carry malpractice insurance, don’t you?
Far fetched? No - actual CO Supreme Court case (if I remember correctly).
Bruce. Sympathy. I agree with you. You should report the judge to the Judicial Review Board, for suborning inadequate representation under color of law, meaning, forcibly. I tell my dermatologist, pull this tooth, at the point of a gun. He ties it to a doorknob, and slams the door. I am bleeding, and have broken gums. Not cool, but not his fault, mine.
We must have less compulsory service in Massachusetts. Some public defenders are government employees and others are in private practice working as contractors. About 15 years ago contract public defenders in the Pioneer Valley decided the pay wasn't worth it and stopped taking new cases. The courts clogged up. I think they got a raise. Neither the prosecutors nor the defenders handing misdemeanor cases were highly paid.
The Internet tells me this month Minnesota public defenders are talking about a strike.
"The bar exam is a regurgitation of the IRAC approach taught in law school."
Except, of course, that the MBE is multiple-choice.
Apparently Mr. High IQ hasn't heard "Brevity is the Soul of Wit"
Hey, Frankie. Are you a licensed lawyer?
Hey, Daivd. Are you a Licensed Prick?
Hey, Frankie. Not a lawyer. I wish you well.
Unlicensed and practicing without.
"The most validated test on earth, the IQ, was banned from school because of racial disparity."
IQ tests measure the ability to take IQ tests, and precisely nothing else.
Licensing is derided here for many jobs, like hair braiding. There is a study showing that pro se criminal defendants outperform public defenders in obtaining not guilty verdicts. Indeed, public defenders who have passed the bar, will urge defendants to accept false and ruinous guilty pleas. The bar exam has no more public benefit than a hair braiding licensing exam.
"There is a study showing that pro se criminal defendants outperform public defenders in obtaining not guilty verdicts."
Link?
Seen or downloaded by 25000 people. Famous.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=901610
And public defenders outperform privately paid defense attorneys.
https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2021/oct/15/study-shows-public-defenders-outperform-court-appointed-private-attorneys/
Go to the second chart on p. 2 for any date.
https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Admissions/Law-School-Regulation/Exam-Statistics
OK, according to the report, only about 0.5% of defendants use pro se and therefore, ". . . the sample size of pro se defendants in the State Court Database remains too small to draw definitive conclusions about the success rate of pro se defendants."
So a tiny amount of defendants choose pro se and of that amount, most "win" their case.
That's hardly a sweeping argument as your, ". . . a study showing that pro se criminal defendants outperform. . . ," suggests.
Ape. The rate of guilty verdicts with public defenders is around 95%. So "most" win the case if pro se is extremely significant. The rent seeking lawyer author was denying her own facts.
"Most" of "not much" is not a significant number. Some of those pro se defendants are the sovereign citizens insisting that the court lacks jurisdiction because there's a fringe on the flag. Those people like to rant about lawyers, too, while also insisting that they have rights under the Articles of Confederation as they are standing in states that did not exist in 1789.
Actually 234 is a very respectable sample size. The percentage of the total is not what determines the statistical significance.
The paper states that the sample may include people who haven't taken any steps to represent themselves. If the prosecutor dismisses the case while the defendant is in the process of engaging an attorney, that doesn't say anything about the effectiveness of pro se representation.
We can get around this problem by looking only at cases that went to trial, but that reduces the sample size to 23. There were five acquittals, resulting in an acquittal rate of 21.7%, but the error bounds are huge (9% to 35%). The acquittal rate of 21.7% for pro se defendants is marginally higher than the acquittal rate of 21.6% for defendant represented by counsel, but that comparison is meaningless because the sample size is too small.
This isn't a criticism of the paper, because the authors of the paper acknowledge that the sample size is too small to support the claim that Daivd Behar makes.
"This isn't a criticism of the paper, because the authors of the paper acknowledge that the sample size is too small to support the claim that Daivd Behar makes."
so, the conclusion is that the authors of the study know what they're talking about better than Behar. Unsurprising.
Comparing apples to oranges proves that apples are not oranges.
This appears to have been a student project, since Orin Kerr was listed first for thanks. What was striking to me was that in the federal cases, with the best data, almost all cases were pled out. Pro se did better there. But of the few cases that went to trial, the pro se defendants got creamed, as you would expect. Which suggests, to me, that the big difference is in plea bargains. And one thing that may differ here is guilt or innocence of the defendant. PDs don’t care that much. 95% of their clients are guilty, at least of one of the charges against them, and most of their job, volume wise, is plea bargaining. In LS, a prof had an ADA and PD in, and would throw them fact scenarios. They could plead it out in a minute or so. Tweak a fact, both would quickly agree on a different sentence. So, what happens to the defendant who knows that he is innocent? Can he plead his case better with the ADA than the PD will? Compounding that, ADAs are often very busy, and it takes them more time to deal with pro se defendants. My experience is that it can - I make the state either prove their case with traffic infractions, or offer me a good deal. Their 2nd offer is always better than their 1st, and the 3rd one, right before trial, inevitably has some sort of deferred prosecution, or similar. PDs are very often one and done with ADAs. Pro se makes prosecutors work harder, thus giving them an incentive to give better deals.
Does that mean that everyone should represent themselves? Hardly. One reason that pro se representation can be effective, is that it alters the status quo, the equilibrium between ADAs and PDs. Another is that not everyone is confident enough in their persuasive abilities to get better deals than a PD could. I am, because I inevitably have been out of LS a lot longer than they have. The point here is that there is a lot of self selection going on, in determining who is going to self represent, and who isn’t. Remember, only maybe 1% of the population have graduated from LS, and they intimidate most people. What sort of person believes that he can hold his own against these brainiacs (lawyers)? Could that self selection more than compensate for the differences in the statistics? We don’t know, but I think it likely.
Bruce. Judges should be looking out for the procedural rights of pro se defendants. I have proposed excluding lawyers from the bench. Judges should go to judge school, after being older and having suffered a little. Then, take the shackles off judges, and let them investigate. Give them investigative resources and security from criminal gangs. They are the best experts and are supposed to be neutral and fair. But, that would cut into fees, and judges are most oppressed of all by the lawyer hierarchy, even more than lawyers.
"Judges should be looking out for the procedural rights of pro se defendants."
what? defendants should be looking out for the procedural rights of defendants, and judges should be impartial.
Good point that there is self-selection going on.
There is also the point mentioned in the paper that they classified by status at the end of the case, so some large fraction of the pro se could be people who fired their lawyer. Apparently to good effect, judging by the stats.
Maybe the "lesson" here isn't so much represent yourself, it's that you need to be more willing to dump your lawyer if s/he is messing up.
Being willing to dump your lawyer has more to do with having the resources to hire an alternate than anything else.
Except the study results could (stress the could) be explained in part by no replacement being better than retaining a bad lawyer.
In the study we don't know how many of pro se cases are fired lawyers, but we do know all the fired-and-unreplaced cases are counted as pro se.
Wouldn't be out of line with other professions. A bad plumber, barber, accountant can easily do more damage than attempting to do it yourself.
Once a lawyer has appeared for the defendant, the judge isn't going to let them withdraw/be discharged with no replacement, because that's asking for an overturn on appeal for ineffective assistance of counsel. So if you want to fire your lawyer for being a bad lawyer, it's almost impossible unless there is another lawyer lined up and ready to take over.
"Except the study results could (stress the could) be explained in part by no replacement being better than retaining a bad lawyer."
Anecdotal: I was pro se in my own divorce case, and I kept the house and custody of the offspring (the only contested issue in the divorce). Is that proof that having no lawyer is better than the alternative? Sure sounds like it might be, until you fine out that she was also pro se. AND also pro se in the annual petitions to re-open the custody case, despite no meaningful changes in circumstance.
Even more critical than deciding to plead out, there's the technicality that some defendants are actually guilty of the crime they've been charged with, and some are not. Did the defense attorney who got their guilty defendant acquitted do a better job than the defense attorney who got their innocent defendant acquitted? That's probably the harder job, but is it "better"?
It's unfortunate, albeit expected, that there are no useful comments on this page.
Conflicts was one of my favorite courses in law school (although it was certainly optional, and not taken by many). I have mixed emotions on this change, in that I agree with both sides.
Prof. Baude is correct- practitioners who are unfamiliar with conflict of law don't even realize that there is a conflict of laws issue when it is biting them in the behind; something I have utilized to my considerable benefit, and my opponents' detriment.
...that said, actual conflicts come up less often than you might think, IME. I'm not sure that it still needs to be on the bar exam.
Eh, who knows, Bizorgs is on the bar, and almost every young associate I have ever met knows jack squat about various legal entities.
Of course, comments that the bar exam has no validation and is racially biased is not useful to the lawyer.
Loki: "Conflicts was one of my favorite courses in law school"
Of course it was. Conflict of laws generates endless dispute and billable hours.
Probably far less than a lot of other subjects, because parties can contract around it and frequently do. I've had one case in almost 40 years where a conflict of laws issue mattered (and no, I didn't miss it in other cases). Maybe you're confused by the name. Do you even know what Conflict of Laws is?
More correct to say that you can TRY to contract out of conflict of laws issues.
I am less concerned about dropping Conflicts than Trusts & Estates. Sure, in big firms the T&E folks live in their own world and don't get much respect, but in the broader legal universe, being able to draft a will and set up a trust are probably two of the most common tasks there are. Moreover, they are easy to f*ck up if you don't know what you are doing, and those f*ck ups can have very real consequences.
I don't know if replying to this comment is the best place to post my thoughts, but since it seems the most pertinent one I first observed by scrolling I'll use it.
(I'm probably somewhat handicapped since I'm wholly unfamiliar w/ the Multi-State, having taken the Michigan Bar 55 years ago before it existed.) Eliminating Family Law I see as no problem since so much of it is dependent on particular State elements. The other three surprise me though.
Trusts and Estates, to the extent important understanding is based upon ancient Common Law precedents, presumably might be addressed in the Real Property section. Moreover, much of document drafting in this field also depends upon particular State elements. I do concur though that this is an important area of law that should not be overlooked.
I also concur w/ the professor's thoughts on eliminating Conflict of Laws. In addition to its periodic importance, the field tests the intellectual agility of the students.
Most surprising to me though is elimination of Secured Transactions. While I might be prejudiced as this area, both contractual and statutory, has been my primary specialty, these transactions surface constantly, and portions of it are appropriate for the Multi-State as of sufficient uniformity, e.g. Common Law rules on Suretyship and Article 9. (From the post perhaps only Article 2 of the UCC is addressed.) I can't perceive how this area can be overlooked.
I mean, everything you say is true, but being able to pass the bar exam prepares one to draft a will about as much as being able to pass a driving test prepares one to win the Indy 500.
I guess the rebuttal to my argument is, "Well, if it's on the bar people will take T&E in law school, and so they'll learn stuff that isn't tested on the bar." Which is also true, but it's not as if T&E teaches one how to draft a will, either.
Counter-couterpoint: Wills and Estates was on the bar exam back when I was picking classes, and I didn't take it. Anecdotal but concrete evidence that putting something on the bar exam doesn't mean that people will study it in law school. (I also didn't take criminal law, and it's a double-bar course.)
I strongly agree that conflict of laws questions should be included on the bar exam. Granted, I have a bias, as my father taught conflicts for many years, and I too enjoyed the course in law school. Conflicts questions may not arise frequently in everyday practice, but when they do, lawyers need to know how to handle them. And jurisdiction questions, which arise fairly frequently, used to be covered in conflicts, although maybe not any more. The law schools are in part to blame, as more and more of them do not require students to take conflicts.
I don't blame my law school for not requiring that I take a conflict of laws course. If I wanted to take it, I would have.
A decision from the First Circuit this week involved parties who couldn't be bothered to figure out which jurisdiction's law applied and whether there was any conflict. "Despite the Agreement's choice-of-law provision directing the application of Puerto Rico law to the interpretation of its provisions, the parties rely on federal precedents applying law from a variety of jurisdictions, along with general contract-law principles. Consequently, we — like the district court — will apply federal precedents and general principles of contract law." (_Rivera v. Kress Stores of Puerto Rico_)
In fairness, the great and brilliant Brainerd Currie wrote one of the best law review articles of all time in the field of conflict of laws.
In cutting through what had been a terribly complicated field, he understood that ... wait for it ... absent extraordinary circumstances, judges will apply the law that they are familiar with.
Bingo. If neither side understands that they have a conflicts issue, neither side will raise it, and the court won't have the issue before it. It's the imbecile's consent-to-jurisdiction clause.
Hell, I can't count the number of lawyers who, in drafting a contract or litigating it, do not even understand the difference between a choice of law clause and a forum selection clause.
I'll argue that CA law applies rather than NY law, and they'll respond, "No, the contract says that the parties consent to jurisdiction in NY." And will then look blankly when I say, "Yes, I agree. So what?"
As my old partner used to say, 90% of lawyers are not in the top 10%.
Fire all the teachers? Half our kids are performing below average in school!
You must live in a different legal world than I do. The contracts I litigate almost always have choice-of-law provisions and very often have separate venue, dispute resolution, and similar provisions.
Standard contracts drafted by well paid teams of experienced lawyers working for large companies have those.
Speaking of worlds, I remember talking to a lawyer who was then new to foreign law expressing surprise at how willing continental European courts were to enforce an oral contract that would never hold up in America. It was not clear to me whether the difference was due to custom or the Statute of Frauds.
"The contracts I litigate almost always have choice-of-law provisions and very often have separate venue, dispute resolution, and similar provisions."
The contracts will have the boilerplate clauses in them that the lawyers paid to draft them choose to include. The people choosing to include them may or may not understand why they're in the standard boilerplate template. Somebody at the firm got burned by not including a choice of law clause, and included one in their standard contract template, and everyone since then has just cut-and-pasted the original clause into their standard contracts ever since.
That's one of the points of having a large law firm, right, so you can "learn" from the experiences of each other and avoid making the same mistakes?
Same thing's happening in Medical Schools, used to be Students dissected their Cadavers, usually 4 to a body, you had to know the other Cadavers also (all named of course "Dr. Funk" wasn't embalmed particularly well but looked as if I might get up off the slab, "General Burkhalter" looked like the "Hogan's Heroes" character. You had to know all the little bones in the hand although only 1 gets injured with any regularity, "Never Lower Tillie's Pants, Grandma Might Come Home" was the pneumonic (Doctors of a certain age will remember it) my favorite was "Fuck Little Titties" which was a Biochemistry one for the Pituitary Hormones that are Glycoproteins (FSH, LH, TSH)
the Kids today have professional dissectors cut everything up, and even most MD's don't know their carpal bones, branches of the Internal Iliac, and of course the "Anatomical Variants"
and NP's?? fuggetaboutit, I've seen more who don't know a Radius from an Ulna, read EKG's upside down, and wouldn't recognize a small Pneumothorax if it walked up and Bitchslapped them like Will Smith....
Frank
Hey, Frankie. If you were a patient, what year in medicine would you like to return to, because it is better than today?
The failure and fraudulent nature, the rent seeking of medicine is 10 times bigger and 10 times more toxic and deadly than that of the lawyer. It is too big even for me. These people kill 100000 people a year just by mistake, with a racial disparity, naturally. Of course, I blame all medical error on the lawyer profession. It induces a cover up and defensive medicine instead of fixing the crazy, stupid system.
Dammit, you know all of our scams! Like Air Travel, most things are better now than in the "Good Old Days". Statins have cut the MI rate in half, and those that happen usually get PTCA instead of a Sternotomy. Gallbladder used to require a painful subcostal incision and weeks recovery. OTOH was nice for patients to come in the night before instead of 6am.
And worse than Lawyers are the Electronic Medical Records, instituted to increase billing, and to protect liability, unfortunately documenting a complete head to toe examination for a sore throat throws out any credibility a practitioner might have.
1998 was a pretty good year, most of the modern advances, but most things still handwritten or dictated.
As someone who's had sternotomy (bypass), PTCA (balloon angioplasty with and without stent), and gall balder removal via laproscopic surgery, I can say it's all good.
I'm two years older than one grandpa made it, the other comes up in two more years.
Laproscopic bypass is the holy grail, but apparently there are some technical hurdles to go.
Hey, Frankie. Machines are 100 times better. Compare commuting to work on a horse to in a car on a snow day. The electronic record is bad on purpose, and is slower than paper. Imagine a car that is worse than a horse, and throws you out, shuts down at random times. Why? To force doctors to type, instead of doing billable procedures. To demoralize doctors by degrading them into data entry clerks, preferably, so they quit.
A real electronic record would be a video recording of the encounter, no typing whatsoever. Doctors would give a 1 minute summary at the end, what they saw, what they did. Review the last minute of the record on the next visit. Patients take the recording with them to review everything they forgot, which is everything that was said.
In 1998, Covid vaccine would have taken 5 years to develop, not 5 months.
In 1998, the threat of Covid was still two decades in the future, so needing a 5 year headstart wouldn't have been a problem. They were still trying to get the world vaccinated for polio.
Also in STEM careers. Schools are complaining that most drop outs drop out because of calculus. They want to drop calculus from science and engineering degree requirements.
Years ago, saying "dumbing down of America." was considered an extreme far right thing to say. Today, that view is more mainstream.
That may have more to do with teachers who don't understand Calculus than students.
"That may have more to do with teachers who don't understand Calculus than students."
Funny story... as an undergraduate, I took a 400-level course in science, math, and computer-science education. The course was taught by someone who had very little understanding of science, math, or computer-science.
Well, if you want to practice, e.g., computer science, then statistics is way more relevant to your work than calculus. So I'd certainly have no problem dropping calculus from those curricula as long as they add some requirements around statistics.
Calculus is pretty much only relevant to physics. Newton invented it to solve some physics problems he was working on. Statistics is only relevant to computer science if you are the team lead who has to answer the question "what are the odds that this project will be late, over budget, and contain bugs?"
One of the few countervailing forces generating any demand for conflicts professors is the sense at at least some law schools that they should probably have at least some faculty members who can teach the "bar classes."
So they don't want to teach "bar classes." This is both unsurprising and puzzling. What should law schools be teaching, if not, "civil procedure, contract law (including Article 2 of the Uniform Commercial Code), evidence, torts, business associations (including agency), constitutional law (including proceedings before administrative agencies), criminal law and constitutional protections of accused persons, and real property," along with "conflict of laws, family law, trusts and estates, or secured transactions?"
Some of these people need to get over themselves.
Well .... look ... that's not quite fair.
Once you have a basic understanding of (1) "how to think like a lawyer" (how to spot issues), (2) "how to talk like a lawyer" (required legal verbiage, like complaint, or estoppel, or life estate), (3) basic procedure & evidence (motion to dismiss, evidentiary standards), and (4) basic contracts and real property ....
Everything else can be taught on a bar course. Seriously. A lot of these classes are awesome and in-depth and I recommend them (especially business associations and agency) but you don't need them to pass the bar.
Honestly, it's so easy that I really really really have concerns that the bar is too low of a barrier, given the level of practice I usually see from practitoners.
I remember sitting in a Bar-Bri class, listening to the people behind me discuss the concepts that had just been lectured about. They were so stunningly off base, that any fears I had about passing the Bar (which was graded on a curve) evaporated.
Ok, Loki. I will accept your reproof, sort of.
But does what you describe take three years?
And if all that other stuff, which I presume lawyers need to know, can be taught in a few months (is that right?) then is there really no way to find that time during the three years?
Or is it the case that the bar courses only exist because the law faculty don't want to teach that material?
No. Law school should be two years. The third year adds lots of fun electives that would be fine for people who care about the law academically. But the vast majority of law students are in law school to get diplomas so they can take the bar and practice law.
No. I mean, most don't, because the stuff on the bar is basically the 101 level of any topic. But that's not why bar review exists. It reviews stuff one has already learned as well as covering anything one didn't take in law school that's on the bar.
There's approximately no reason law school couldn't be an undergraduate program.
then stop trying to license people to work the whole field* at once. Switch Bar licensing to admission (which proves that the person is qualified to walk into court and sit down at the correct table. Then license specialties, so a litigator gets an advanced understanding of civil/criminal procedure, evidence, and a business lawyer gets tested on business associations, contracts, and other areas of law that a business lawyer needs to know, and the pi lawyer gets tested on tort law, and so on for every different practice area, seeing as how in the real world, that's how lawyers tend to organize their practices, taking cases in their specialties and declining representation in cases that require knowledge or experience they lack. Once you set it up that way, you can set up the tests to thoroughly assess specialized legal knowledge (and you can require re-testing every, say, 5 years) and you can offer multiple passing scores, so that the guy who gets a score of 7 or higher is allowed to take cases on, but the guy who gets a score of 9 or 10 is allowed to put that score on his business cards, and charge higher rates than the guy who squeaked by on a 7. That way, the consuming public can pick the level of specialization they need, so if I need to set up an LLC to run a restaurant, I don't have to go to a guy who could've set up a publicly-traded corporation for me.
" But the vast majority of law students are in law school to get diplomas so they can take the bar and practice law."
Only about half of JD graduates go on to practice law.
" that's not why bar review exists. It reviews stuff one has already learned as well as covering anything one didn't take in law school that's on the bar."
Bar review courses exist to help people pass the bar. They have approximately nothing to do with what happens afterwards.
I took a great meditation course my third year!
(Yes, you read that correctly. Not mediation. Meditation.)
I was employed full-time when I started law school. So I enrolled in the part-time program, and had 4 years of law school rather than just 3. This gave me a bit more freedom to choose electives that were sometimes scheduled at the same time. I qualified for both the business-law certificate and the intellectual-property certificate (but the school only allowed JD students to pick one or the other. Had I wanted to pursue an llm, I could have added another.
I do agree that many times lawyers don't even realize there is a conflicts question. And, frequently, it is a 'threshold' question; can you even seek the relief you want in the court you are in?
I took "Conflicts and Choice of Law" back in mid 90's; it certainly was one of the drier classes but while it wasn't the single most useful class (which turned out to be Remedies) it was certainly in the top 3 (the other being Agency and Partnership).
While this stuff doesn't come up every day, it comes up often enough that you should be familiar with it; very recently had a case in Florida where plaintiff sued my client to enforce a California settlement agreement arising from California suit over a California Trust and settlement agreement stated California law will govern; technically, maybe, they could sue outside California but a Florida court is going to be applying California law and no one involved in the case was California lawyer. But opposing counsel just didn't see that.
"But opposing counsel just didn't see that."
Yep. And opposing counsel passed the Bar.
Understanding that doesn't even require taking Conflicts; just the ability to read.
"What do you call the guy who graduated last in his class in med school?"
"Doctor."
What do you call the guy who graduated last in law school? Rich. He did not waste time memorizing for exams. He can spot the important issues, instead.
Yeh - last row in class were those just getting their ticket punched. They were going into litigation, and the rest of it was just something they had to endure. And that is what they did - went into litigation and made good money.
The guy who graduated last in law school isn't passing the bar. (Except perhaps at the Ivy League schools you hate so much.)
You're assuming the guy who didn't pay enough attention to classes in law school is also not paying attention in his bar review course.
Here is a related issue I see quite often -- people using Delaware law and courts for run-of-the-mill commercial contracts (completely outside the M&A context).
I think they think that since their corporation is organized under Delaware law, that Delaware law should govern all their contracts, even though they have no substantive familiarity with Delaware law.
Most useful doctrinal class is an interesting question. I think it’s got to be evidence for me.
The First Circuit had a case a few years ago to enforce a settlement agreement, I think in a class action. After signing the contract the winning lawyers wanted a share of the settlement amount as attorney's fees. They done goofed (as we say on the Internet). The contract did not contain a choice of law provision. The settlement was agreed to in Massachusetts. Massachusetts does not automatically award attorney's fees in such cases.
As a non-lawyer, I had no idea that the law has it's own cornflakes. 🙂
I'm conflicted about this.
That depends on where you are located. 😉
Only if he's trying to resolve the conflict.
I can understand dropping family law - because the state portion - the essay portion - should cover that. I'm not really supporting it, but I understand. I agree that conflict of laws and trusts and estates, should remain on the multistate. I can also see dropping secured transactions, although I might want to roll that into "personal property/secured transactions." And you'll probably still get some of this in contracts.
Except that people are mobile now, and often bounce between states a bit. Did you know that if you spend the night at the Denver airport, and hold yourself out as married to the world, that an argument can be made that you are married (assuming that you could legally have gotten married to each other in the first place)? Last I knew, it retained a very permissive common law marriage law, dating from a time when some counties didn’t have preachers, judges, or attorneys. I am reminded of one couple, who had portrayed themselves to us as married, at a deposition at our offices in Denver. They apparently weren’t under CA law, where they lived, according to the suit by the “wife” for her share of the company. Except that they may well have been under CO common law marriage law. Her attorney seems to have missed that. Maybe.
When I was in LS, there were two different thoughts about what courses to take. Our Real Property prof counseled us to take all of the bar related cases. Others counseled us that we would pick up what we needed for the non core subjects in Bar/Bri (etc). I followed that, and wasn’t disappointed. Got to load up on the stuff I thought would be useful in my practice, and, for example, have used Antitrust far more that Family Law in the intervening 30 years.
Good points, thank you. I'm a legal aid attorney, so naturally, my mileage varies.
BTW, your story about Colorado reminds me of my cousin and his wife. They were married, then divorced - both in California. They reconciled and moved to Colorado. They never got formally remarried, but they held themselves out as married and saw themselves as married. I walked them through the elements of common-law marriage in Colorado (which I was somewhat familiar with because I started out in OK and it came up from time-to-time). At the end of my questioning, I told them that they satisfied the elements and they had a common-law marriage. I got the feeling the wife was relieved, but my cousin seemed a little perturbed. Frankly, I'm of the belief that it does need to be clarified, for everyone's future protection.
One of the elements of common-law marriage is a present wish to be married. I'm not sure that always gets factored into public perception.
The one class I wish I had taken in law school was remedies.
What is the rationale for deleting family law from the Multistate? I hope it's that the examiners are confident that every state will include family law issues elsewhere in the bar exam.
My guess for the rationale to drop family law would be that the field changes and is likely to continue changing, rendering memorized knowledge less valuable/necessary. Republicans would love a chance to put Obergefell back in the bottle it came out of.
I have long sensed a worthwhile approach would be a series of brief (three- to four-week) 'general survey' courses on subjects such as bankruptcy, tax, conflicts, remedies, intellectual property, secured transactions, estates and trusts, family law, employment law, and administrative law. (That is not an exhaustive list.) Second- and third-year students could be encouraged or take some, required to take others.
Almost every lawyer would benefit from knowing something about those subjects. Those who prefer specialized study could choose a semester on bankruptcy, estates and trust, family law, or the like rather than the condensed class.
I not only never took estates and trusts but also had a first-year property professor who largely ignored that section of the book. I have never written a will (named executor a number of times, but never wrote a will). When I tell people I do not write wills, some seem stunned that one can be a lawyer without knowing how to draft a will.
Artie. For $69, you can use an app to write a will, charge $300 for it. The app applies the laws of each state entered.
Yes, and you will get your money's worth, and no more.
Depends on how skilled the programmer of the program was. Odds are, not licensed to practice law in any jurisdiction.
I have proposed a two-credit course (to be taken after baby Tax) called "a little more Tax," giving bare-bones coverage to corporate and estate tax, which is not usually in baby Tax). No takers.
" When I tell people I do not write wills, some seem stunned that one can be a lawyer without knowing how to draft a will."
Not only did I not take Wills and Trusts, but on the actual bar exam, I had two essay questions on wills and trusts. Still passed the exam, perhaps because of not having to take time answering two of the questions, which left more time to answer the other questions.
If you hadn't slept through Bar-Bri those days, you could have answered those essays too 😉
Didn't take Bar-Bri. Too busy going to my daytime job.
I'm no expert, but I notice that *in 1834* Justice Story was able to write over 500 pages about conflict between domestic and foreign laws.
(Commentaries on the Conflict of Laws, Foreign and Domestic
In Regard to Contracts, Rights, and Remedies, and Especially in Regard to Marriages, Divorces, Wills, Successions, and Judgments. Boston: Hilliard, Gray and Company, 1834).
Have things grown easier or more intuitive since then?
Story wrote what he thought the law should be. Today you have to contend with 50 different jurisdictions, and occassionally federal choice of law.
The Bar exam is largely an exercise of wasted time and effort, on both sides (administering and taking the test). The MBE itself is not that hard to pass.
To really perform a gatekeeping role of keeping unqualified people from practicing law, it would be given to all practitioners on a regular basis (not just on admission) and wouldn't require a degree to take it. In most states, an ABA-accredited JD is required to be allowed to sit the exam. So people go to an accredited law school, then take a bar-prep course, and then take the bar exam (and then blot out everything that was on the bar exam with alcohol.) that last step is optional.
The main point of the bar exam seems to be to make sure that the law schools aren't just passing everyone who can afford tuition, because bar passage rate is recorded as part of ABA accreditation. This encourages law schools to keep some candidates from completing a JD degree.
Learning to "think like a lawyer" is not exactly the same as "spotting issues." "Thinking like a lawyer" is a methodological approach to breaking down a problem into its various parts, organizing an argument a logical fashion, etc. "Spotting issues" supposes at least a basic knowledge of substantive areas of law, much of which can be gotten in law school courses. The lawyers who don't recognize conflicts of law problems may be thinking like lawyers, but they aren't spotting the issue.
I cannot disagree with you more.
Spotting issues, or even understanding that there are issues that you don't fully understand (and will have to look up) is EXACTLY what thinking like a lawyer is. Period. That's the biggest difference between a lawyer and a layperson.
(I think you intuitively understand this- "breaking down a problem" is nothing more than spotting the issues)
I disagree with your disagreement. Spotting issues is the first step. Being able to analyze the applicable precedent and apply it to the facts of the case is the next step. Which many lawyers, in my experience, fail miserably at.
Spotting issue may or may not be the first step. Being able to analyze the problem, using relevant law, may or may not be dependent on issue-spotting.
Compare it to mathematics, where you first teach children how to add, subtract, multiply, and divide, then move on to basic algebra. Being able to do the mathematical operations involved does not help solve a story problem unless the person can understand which mathematical relationships exist in the problem.
One of the most important thing I learned in law school was a case in which a rich guy died who lived in State X but also had a home in State Y. Both States ended up claiming him as a domicilliary and taxed his estate accordingly. And the federal courts refused any relief.
Yes, that's not really a conflicts case, it's a jurisdiction case, but it dramatizes the issue. My practice was in DC, so we frequently had to deal with Maryland and Virginia law, and DC being the nation's capital we had to deal with disputes arising out of transactions and events in many other States -- as well as federal law, of course.
In my opinion, conflicts of law is a great way to learn that the theories don't always work. Proceed with caution.
How do Natural Law folks hendle Conflicts of Law issues?
So the field is at once so incredibly niche and specialized that nobody's going to teach it or research it if it's not on the bar exam yet so super duper important that you think it just has to be there?
Seems odd that American lawyers wouldn't have to have a basic competency in writing and handling wills.
As for conflicts, it's a procedural field, not a substantive one. I expect that Torts will pick up the slack as an element of choice of forum.
Mr. D.
"Seems odd that American lawyers wouldn't have to have a basic competency in writing and handling wills."
That might be odd, if that's what was being considered.
At present, the bar exam in most states is actually a combination of several exams. there's one part that is actually the same in different states, and therefore does not test the law of any one state in particular. There's also a part that each state makes up and scores on its own, independently of other states. Dropping a subject from the multistate part of the exam doesn't mean that there's no requirement to be competent on that subject. Perhaps it just means that that area of law is just not generic enough to be covered (and scored) the same in multiple states.