The Volokh Conspiracy
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Who Decides What Is Taught in Government-Run K-12 Schools?
Various states have enacted laws limiting the teaching of "critical race theory" by various government institutions. Florida has recently limited "classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity … in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."
Keith Whittington has written about some of these laws as applied to universities; I'll speak about that in a separate post. But I thought I'd talk more about the big picture, and particularly K-12 teaching at government-run schools (though similar arguments arise as to internal training by government offices and the like).
[A.] Let me start with three hypotheticals, just to put the matter into broader perspective.
[1.] A state tells public schools (and therefore teachers) that they can't teach "critical race theory," defined for instance as "the theory that racism is not merely the product of learned individual bias or prejudice, but that racism is systemically embedded in American society and the American legal system to facilitate racial inequality." (I'm quoting here a North Dakota statute enacted recently.)
[2.] There's a movement to teach students Coastal Elites Theory, a theory that various coastal elites (in national government, higher education, Wall Street, Hollywood, and other such institutions) have been wrongfully exploiting Heartland Americans in what some label "flyover country." This has gone on, the theory goes, from the 1700s to now; "heartland" Americans have resisted it at various times throughout (note the echoes here, for instance, of complaints about New York financiers in Alexander Hamilton's day), but the oppression continues.
There is also a countermovement that argues that, though there are some plausible arguments for some such complaints, the theory—especially when taught in K-12 schools—is (1) in various respects mistaken, (2) exaggerates the magnitude of the problem, (3) foments divisions both among Americans generally and within each school (since in all places some students and families may be more linked to supposed Coast Elites and some to Heartland Americans), and (4) counterproductively undermines the education even of the students it aims to benefit, by causing them to focus on grievances and obstacles rather than on opportunities. As a result, a state tells public schools that they can't teach Coastal Elites Theory.
[3.] There's a movement to teach students Free-Market Capitalism, the theory that on balance economic liberty is a huge boon for mankind, and that regulations of free markets are usually counterproductive. (I should add that I think this is an important and respectable theory, and I'm inclined to think that it's mostly correct, though the question is always which regulations, however rare, are necessary.) But many in the Legislature disapprove of it, and tell public schools that they can't teach Free-Market Capitalism.
[B.] Now naturally one can conclude that one or more of these proposals is a bad idea because the underlying theory is a good theory and should be taught. But from a legal and constitutional perspective, they strike me as similar.
Someone has to make the decision about what the government says and does—what public schools teach, what training government employers require, and the like. Usually it's done by administrators within the relevant government agency: school boards and principals in education, department heads in other departments. Sometimes it's done by line employees, for instance if a school gives teachers considerable authority over a particular class (common in universities, less so in K-12 schools, I think). Sometimes it's done by local officials, such as city or county governments or school boards.
And sometimes it's done by the legislature, either in the first instance or, more often, in reaction to what executive officials have done. In my view, this is a complicated policy question, with no one answer being clearly the right one as a matter of general principle.
For instance, most legislators (and even often local school boards officials) don't have much experience with educating people; principals and individual teachers generally do. On the other hand, legislators and school board members are more representative of the people, including people who are paying for the schools and who are sending their children to the schools. School board members are generally closer to the voters than state legislators. State legislators can provide more statewide uniformity, which is sometimes helpful (and perhaps sometimes not).
Perhaps the right solution might be to leave most decisions to teachers or principals, and to have school boards or legislatures step in only in rare situations where the elected officials think the lower-level decisions are far wrong. Or perhaps it might be to do something else. But again some government officials have to decide what is going to be taught in government-run schools. The question is which government officials they should be.
[C.] But whatever the sound policy might be, the First Amendment generally doesn't speak to these questions (except in the narrow and different context of the teaching of evolution or intelligent design, which has been governed by Establishment Clause principles, see Epperson v. Arkansas (1968) and Edwards v. Aguillard (1987), and which I set aside here). While teachers have considerable rights, for instance, to say what they want outside class, when they are teaching on behalf of the school, their speech in class is the government's speech, and they have no special First Amendment right to dictate what that speech would be. To quote some federal appellate courts,
- "Teachers do not have a protected First Amendment right to decide the content of their lessons or how the material should be presented to their students…. '[N]o court has found that teachers' First Amendment rights extend to choosing their own curriculum or classroom management techniques in contravention of school policy or dictates.'" "The right to free speech protected by the First Amendment does not extend to the in-class curricular speech of teachers in primary and secondary schools made 'pursuant to' their official duties."
- "[P]ublic-school teachers must hew to the approach prescribed by principals (and others higher up in the chain of authority)…. [A teacher does] not have a constitutional right to introduce his own views on the subject but must stick to the prescribed curriculum—not only the prescribed subject matter, but also the prescribed perspective on that subject matter."
- "[T]he school, not the teacher, has the right to fix the curriculum."
- "[T]he concept of academic freedom … has never conferred upon teachers the control of public school curricula."
In very rare cases, courts have struck down such curriculum restrictions as being not "reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical concerns"; most prominently, the Ninth Circuit so held as to an Arizona law that "prohibits courses and classes that '[a]re designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group.'" But even that decision reaffirmed the government's broad authority over the curriculum, upholding, for instance, other provisions that forbade public school classes that "[p]romote resentment toward a race or class of people" or "[a]dvocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals."
Again, it may sometimes be unwise to micromanage teachers on their choices of what and how to teach. But if higher-ups, whether principals, school boards, the state board of education, or the legislature, wants to control such speech, the federal Constitution doesn't constrain them.
Nor is there a First Amendment problem with a state legislature asserting control over the curriculum rather than leaving it to local school boards. Generally speaking, from the perspective of the First Amendment and the rest of the federal Constitution, local governments are subdivisions of the state, and subject to control by the state:
"Political subdivisions of States … never were and never have been considered as sovereign entities." They are instead "subordinate governmental instrumentalities created by the State to assist in the carrying out of state governmental functions." State political subdivisions are "merely … department[s] of the State, and the State may withhold, grant or withdraw powers and privileges as it sees fit."
Indeed, this is true even of charter schools, when those schools are operated as government schools:
The First Amendment's speech clause does not … give … charter school teachers, Idaho charter school students, or the parents of … charter school students a right to have primary religious texts included as part of the school curriculum. Because [the] charter schools are governmental entities, the curriculum presented in such a school is not the speech of teachers, parents, or students, but that of the [state] government….. A public school's curriculum … is "an example of the government opening up its own mouth," because the message is communicated by employees working at institutions that are state-funded, state-authorized, and extensively state-regulated. Because the government's own speech is not subject to the First Amendment, plaintiffs have no First Amendment right to compel that speech.
[D.] Finally, it's possible that a state constitution may give some institutions some autonomy from the state legislature, but I set that state separation-of-powers question aside for this post. And again it's possible that it's wiser or fairer to leave such questions at the local level rather than at the state level, a question that of course arises as to a vast range of public policy and not just school curricula.
But I don't see why in principle the state government, which often pays a huge portion of the cost of public education, shouldn't have a say here—and, indeed, given the constitutional structure of our states, the ultimate control. (Whether federal government should exercise such control, including with conditions on federal funds, is a more complicated matter, because the Constitution doesn't generally view states as just subdivisions of the federal government, the way it views local entities such as school boards as subdivisions of states.)
UPDATE: I added the parenthetical that briefly mentions the evolution / intelligent design cases, which are governed by specialized Establishment Clause rules related to the religion-related motivation for the laws involved in those cases.
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Florida has recently limited "classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity … in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards."
fwiw - the human mind lacks the capacity to understand those concepts until the person reaches puberty.
The second point is the US is woefully behind in most every industrialied country in the world in math and science while we pollute out childrens education with crt and gender issues
Schools should not trach a denial of reality, such as various self identifications. For example, I identify as rich. I expect everyone to respect my identity and send me money.
I have identified at various times as middle class and poor, but have the same conclusion.
I would settle for getting the amount of money needed for a sex transition, $75000. Send that to me, and unlike the transgender people, I promise to not try to kill myself after you spent all that money.
Joe:
1. Those countries that are way ahead of us in math and science are also adequately funding their schools. And it's not like CRT and gender identity will take large amounts of time anyway; if they come up at all, they will come up in history and social studies classes that are being taught anyway. So it isn't that time is being taken away from math and science; it's more of a question of how subject will be taught that are already being taught anyway.
2. Do you have any actual data or evidence that the human mind can't absorb these subjects before puberty? Because I had a pretty good idea about them well before puberty, and I suspect you did too. Not that the specifics of what I believed were entirely and 100% accurate, but I had a basic grasp of the subject.
1) No those other countries are not spending more per pupil than the US
https://reasons.org/explore/blogs/todays-new-reason-to-believe/more-evidence-for-extreme-climate-stability
https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/education-spending.htm
I didn't say more pure pupil; I said adequately funded. Those are different concepts.
How much more do we need to be spending on public schools to achieve "adequacy"? And why do other countries seem to be able to do it for so much less?
It’s interesting to note that Democrat failures always seem to be because they weren’t funded enough or because they weren’t authoritarian enough.
They are never because of bad people implementing bad ideas.
Democrats want government to solve problems, and funding is the only lever government has. There's really no solution for what happens when you increase funding and you don't get more of the stuff you're funding.
In the private sector, otoh, if you don't keep figuring out how to make stuff better, faster, and cheaper, you go out of business, so people focus on that.
moral of the story: Shut down government schools!
KryKry. See the rent seeking theory to explain our garbage education system.
Krychek_2
March.21.2022 at 9:40 am
Flag Comment Mute User
I didn't say more pure pupil; I said adequately funded. Those are different concepts.
you mean like more money to the teachers and in the government employee industrial complex
Like more money for less results
like more of the same that doesnt work
like doubling down on failure
"I said adequately funded."
Framing the issue so it can't ever be satisfied. Nice.
Bob, Joe, Ed, 12", NAS and BCD (I'm ignoring Behar):
Your knee jerk reactions -- government is a failure, it's the Democrats' fault -- do nothing to address a complex problem.
My original comment was in response to Joe's claim implying that other countries are beating us in math and science because we teach CRT and gender theory. That, too, is a simplistic solution to a complex problem. I responded in kind with a simplistic solution of my own -- adequately fund the schools -- not because I actually think that will fix the problem (though it would probably help) but to demonstrate that simplistic solutions, from both right and left, are just that. You had no problem demolishing my simplistic solution while completely lacking the self awareness to recognize the problems with your own. Thank you, I suppose, for proving my point.
Why we are behind other countries in math and science is a much more complex issue than that we teach CRT and gender theory. I know the right loves simplistic solutions, but at the end of the day, they're not really all that helpful.
How about we start with you defining what "adequately fund the schools " means. Hopefully in a way that is meaningfully different from "spend more per pupil, comparable to expenditures in countries who outperform the US in math and science "
The main logic behind 'adequately fund schools' is that we need to spend more than we are now on at least some of them. I don't know that it locks Krychek_2 into picking the right number himself, only that in his opinion it should be higher in at least some places.
I think there are absolutely some schools that are underfunded - that's hard to argue. Our property-taxes based system we have right now is not great for equality of opportunity.
But there are also plenty of well-funded schools and districts that manage to still do badly. So some other reform is needed.
Unless...maybe well-funded is just based on expectation. I do feel in my heart of hearts that there is a whole high-level educational funding paradigm we're missing. Like in the Key and Peele Teacher's Draft sketch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkHqPFbxmOU
Or that West Wing quote: Education is the silver bullet. Education is everything. We don’t need little changes, we need gigantic, monumental changes. Schools should be palaces. Competition for the best teachers should be fierce; they should be making six figure salaries. Schools should be incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free of charge to it citizens, just like national defense.
The main logic behind 'adequately fund schools' is that we need to spend more than we are now on at least some of them. I don't know that it locks Krychek_2 into picking the right number himself, only that in his opinion it should be higher in at least some places.
Neat. Is this a new rule ?
Both taxes and government spending are waaaaaay too high. But I certainly don't need to specify how high they ought to be, nor what spending programs need to be slashed or by how much.
This new game is fun !
Lee, you've posited a false alternative. If someone weighs 400 pounds, I don't have to pick a precise number to know that their health would definitely be better if they lost some weight.
Assuming taxes and spending are, in fact, too high (not everyone agrees with you), then no, you don't have to have a precise number to make the point that they're too high.
private Catholic have a much lower cost per pupil yet have much better results.
Wouldn't surprise me, Joe, though I would wonder how it scales.
Yeah, just like national defense. Billion dollar boats and planes that can't beat goat herders with spears.
Good one.
The main logic behind 'adequately fund schools' is that we need to spend more than we are now on at least some of them.
Krychek_2 explicitly denied that he meant spending more. So that can't be it.
Where did I deny that I meant spending more?
"I didn't say more pure pupil; "
"West Wing quote"
Good lord, one of those people.
West Wing was political fantasy.
That has nothing to do with the quote saying something I agree with.
When you start with a strawman, it's no surprise that you don't get answers that make sense. Joe didn't claim (even by implication) that other countries are beating us in math and science because we teach CRT and gender theory. He claimed that we are already behind in math and science and aren't fixing it because the people who should be in charge of fixing it are instead wrapped up around CRT and gender theory.
The constraint is not classroom hours or dollars, it's management attention. It's a question of prioritization.
So let's start with a different question. Assume we are bad at both math/science and gender issues. Which should schools fix first? If you can only fix one, which should it be? Don't pretend that resources are unlimited. Set a priority. What's yours?
Obviously math and science are more important, but we don't have an either/or situation here. Whatever ails our teaching of math and science can most likely be fixed while also doing what is necessary with CRT and gender issues. I think you would have a far better case if CRT or gender issues were separate classes being taken instead of math or science, so that students had to choose between a three credit hour gender studies class versus a three credit hour algebra class.
But the classes in which CRT or gender issues are likely to arise are already being taught, and the real question is *how* they are to be taught.
But the classes in which CRT or gender issues are likely to arise are already being taught
This suggests otherwise - https://journals.aps.org/prper/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevPhysEducRes.18.010119
This isn't a K-12 class or school. It isn't an educational institution at all. It's an abstract for a research paper to study introductory college classes for an independent professional organization.
Why on God's name would you think this proves anything about CRT in schools?
Other countries are beating us in math and science instruction because we have lousy parents.
If we had better parents, they would demand better schools and we would get better instruction.
In school districts where children do better in math and science instruction it's because the parents demand it.
If you were right, there would be a linear relationship between per-child funding and outcome -- and there isn't.
It's public data -- not always easy to find, and you have to be careful to see exactly what revenue they are (and aren't) including, but you can look up per child spending yourself.
Why the fuck do CRT (or whatever you want to call it) and gender identity need to be taught in school at all?
There’s a simple compromise here - teach age appropriate sex education at a certain age. Maybe late middle school or early high school. There’s no reason to “teach” race or racism at all. Acknowledge it? Of course. But teaching about causes and so on is more opinion than fact, and frankly the CRT/intersectional/anti-racist folks are as racist as the people they decry and way more racist than most Americans. You don’t want small children immersed in their hateful bullshit.
The problem is, as with everything else, the fucking extremists on both sides. The left is just dying to indoctrinate small children in their racial and gender victim garbage, and the extreme evangelical right is afraid that even high schoolers might hear the word “gay” and want to make sure kids are indoctrinated in American greatness. Neither side actually gives a shit about actual education.
The problem is that the school boards are either controlled by the zealots on the left or terrified of crossing them. It’s easy and simple to compromise on this but the crazies are too lost in their own bullshit.
In the times in which we live, there's no way in hell that gender issues won't come up in school from time to time, whether the administration wants to or not. So the question is this: When they do come up, what will be said about them. We don't have the luxury of not teaching them at all.
With respect to CRT, I don't see how an honest teaching of the history of this country wouldn't include the basics of CRT. Does anyone deny that we had Dred Scott, or slavery, or Jim Crow, or the Klan, or race riots, or redlining, or any of the other horrible things that were done to black people? Does anyone deny that we don't still have their lingering effects? So again, it's a question of how that history is to be taught. What I'm hearing from the right is don't teach it in any way that makes white people uncomfortable. If you want to read a really enlightening book on the subject, check out Lies My Teacher Told Me by James Loewen.
KryKry. You need to stand up in Kindergarten class, and confess to your white privilege. Then you need to own your responsibility for the underperformance of Democrat diverses. Welcome to the Red Guard, Kindergarten edition.
"Own your responsibility for the underperformance of Democrat diverses"
Witness the modern re-skin of white man's burden. Congrats, Democrats, you did it!
"What I'm hearing from the right is don't teach it in any way that makes white people uncomfortable."
When I look at actual "anti-CRT bills," I see bans on teaching the moral inferiority of particular races qua races, blaming students for what others of their race did, and calling American fundamentally racist.
Nothing against teaching the bad parts of history, and one bill I saw mandated that the racial parts of history get taught, including Frederick Douglass' works.
The "uncomfortable" talking point comes in because some bills ban telling students they *should* feel uncomfortable for their race or what others of their race did.
If students get uncomfortable on their own initiative, that's not banned.
For example, they can teach about Israel and the Middle East, but they can't turn to the Jewish kids and say "aren't you ashamed to be Jewish because of all the horrible Israeli crimes," and can't turn to the Arab kids and say "aren't you ashamed to be Arab after all that Arab terrorism?"
"Oh, no, the poor Jewish and Arab snowflakes, they don't want to be made uncomfortable, poor dears!"
I suspect that CRT promoters/defenders wouldn't have a problem with making Jewish kids "uncomfortable." (They count Jews as "white.") But they'd definitely yell "RACISM!" if the teacher or the textbook said anything negative about Arabs or Muslims (never mind that Muslims aren't a race).
Cal, should Catholic kids feel inferior because of the Inquisition? No, but the Inquisition needs to be taught, because it explains a lot of what happened next. An honest conversation about the Middle East would probably result in both Jews and Arabs being a little uncomfortable.
Nobody needs to be made to feel bad, but understanding history requires talking about what actually happened, and how it still impacts us today.
I am not aware of any CRT-related bill that proscribes teaching the history of slavery- can you enlighten us?
The ones about 'report to us if a teacher is doing a CRT' are open-ended enough, plenty of parents are reporting anything that touches on race and makes them uncomfortable.
I just looked over my previous remark, and I seem to have anticipated your objections:
"For example, they can teach about Israel and the Middle East, but they can't turn to the Jewish kids and say "aren't you ashamed to be Jewish because of all the horrible Israeli crimes," and can't turn to the Arab kids and say "aren't you ashamed to be Arab after all that Arab terrorism?""
Would an "honest conversation" really involve singling out students for special humiliation?
I also said above that "If students get uncomfortable on their own initiative, that's not banned."
So, really, I don't see how I could get much clearer. Should I use all-caps?
And I'm not going to approve, sight unseen, any and all programs of encouraging informants. The question is whether teachers are presumed innocent - that is, if the only evidence is that some white students felt bad about slavery, but no evidence that they were harassed for being white, would teachers get cleared of such false allegations?
The same goes for any allegations against teachers, not just CRT. What if they're accused of goofing off in class? Parents could make false charges about that, too. So should we legalize goofing off in class?
For instance, there was a report of an English professor teaching licentiousness to his students. Investigation showed he'd simply assigned a poem by a raunchy-but-talented Restoration poet:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44688/to-his-coy-mistress
Does it follow that, if he had *actually* taught licentiousness to his students, that would have been OK, or that false charges should be prevented by legalizing all things of which one could be falsely charged?
The Inquisition was a business model. It enriched the Vatican for 700 years in the form of plea bargains to avoid the stake. It was a rent seeking scam. The only benefit was to avoid getting burned at the stake.
French patriots ended it by expelling and decapitating 10000 high church officials. That is a good model for our remedy for the vile, toxic, rent seeking lawyer profession that took over this business model.
The Spanish Inquisition only lasted about 400 years, and never enriched the Vatican by so much as a penny. On the contrary, it was established to spite the Vatican and challenge its power. The Vatican never approved of it or its antics.
The Roman Inquisition, which still exists, is controlled by the Vatican, but its excesses were nothing compared to the ones that made its Spanish rival infamous.
KryKry. A lot more time was spent on Dred Scot in High School American History, than in Law School where it was totally covered up as a major lawyer fuck up.
In fairness, I teach it as a cause of the Civil Law, not a legal case.
AND in the context of the Fugitive Slave Laws, which legally it isn't.
AND in Roger Taney being from Maryland, which legally is irrelevant.
there has been great progress in race relations in this country
The current format of CRT not only retards that progress but instead it reverses that progress to everyones detriment and creating racial divisions,
further CRT hinders an honest assessment of the primary reason for the black achievement gap that exists in this country since the 60's. Without an honest assessment of the primary reason for the achievment gap, there cant be an intellectual valid method devised to close that gap.
And you, of course, are just the man to tell everyone what the problem is.
Yes, the problem is 100% explained by bastardy. That was caused by Democrat and feminist lawyer induced government dependency from the War on Poverty. Very dark skinned African immigrants outperformed whites in the 2010 Census. They debunk all racism theories as quack. They come from intact, patriarchal families. They are Christian. They love America, and are the new Koreans, top performers.
"there has been great progress in race relations in this country"
I thought that racism against minorities doesn't exist any more. I'm pretty sure I've been told the only victims of racism are white people. Often.
I didn’t say don’t teach history. Some how for many many years we managed to teach about slavery and Dred Scott and so on without telling every white 3rd grader that they are responsible for it and should feel guilty.
We aren't doing that now, either.
I guarantee gender studies doesn't come up in Korean or Japanese or Chinese schools.
How do they manage?
Since gender studies, like CRT, is a college curriculum I think that everyone is safe.
But if you need to blow off steam, go to a school board meeting and scream about Nazis or threaten and intimidate members at their homes. That's what the moral-panic crowd is doing and it's getting great results. A bunch of dedicated people have resigned.
"Why the fuck do CRT ... need to be taught in school at all?"
It isn't. It literally (using the word correctly) isn't taught in any K-12 schools anywhere in America. It isn't even tought at most colleges.
The burden of proof is on you, not him.
However the misrepresentation of the Florida bill is approaching legendary status among the left.
The fun part is half the conversations they deem correct were to occur outside of school the adults would likely be investigated if not charged
Not charged for now…
2) Its highly doubtful - you had any serious grasp of gender / sexual issues prior to puberty - at least not at the level pushed by the gender identity activists
When I was five, I hear a radio preacher ranting about homosexuals, and knew even then that he was talking about me. Did I have as good a grasp then as I do now? Of course not.
And that highlights a very important point that you're overlooking: The system as it works now probably works just fine for kids who are growing up to be hetero cis binary males and females. For kids who are growing up to be something different, not so much.
KryKry. The majority should not be dragged down to accommodate handicapped people that constitute 1% of the population.
If the sole purpose of life is reproduction, who is more impaired? A kid has cerebral palsy in a wheel chair. He flirts with girls and would love to fuck one. The gay author wrote the Novel of the Century and is the Discoverer of the Cure for Cancer?
I hear a radio preacher ranting about homosexuals, and knew even then that he was talking about me.
Liars gotta lie.
The only way a 5 year old knows about sexuality, much less homosexuality, is if they had been groomed.
What are you talking about? Kids can understand that some kids have two dads, some have two moms, and some have one of each. It's a simple enough concept that a child can grasp it.
Literally.
krychek - that is flat out BS that you had any comprehension of gay sex at age 5
I knew nothing about gay sex; I had already figured out gay identity. You, kalak and BCD have demonstrated nothing except a wholesale ignorance of human sexuality. And it's because you make the fundamental error of assuming that straight people don't have a sexual orientation, just like white people don't have a race.
Five year olds are already engaged in doing things related to gender and gender roles. Little girls practice being mommies by playing with dolls. Little boys practice being men by building forts and playing capture the flag. All of this is teaching and grooming them for the roles they will play later in life. And nobody thinks a thing about it because, well, heterosexuals don't have gender identities.
It's only a problem when five year olds who have already figured out that they don't fit traditional roles start acting out what works for them.
When I was five I knew nothing about the mechanics of gay sex. I already knew I wasn't very good at being a traditional boy. And I had already internalized enough to know that that radio preacher was talking to me.
Five year olds are already engaged in doing things related to gender and gender roles. Little girls practice being mommies by playing with dolls. Little boys practice being men by building forts and playing capture the flag. All of this is teaching and grooming them for the roles they will play later in life.
Aaaaand it's back to the 70s again. Since the 70s child psychologists have tried and tried and tried again to demonstrate this alleged training and grooming. But again and again the kids ruin the experiment. The "controls" - where they try to coax the boys into playing with dolls and the girls into playing with artillery - fail. When the adult leaves the room, the boys seize the weapons of war, and the girls seize the dolls.
It must be something outside kindergarten. Or in the water. Or the CO2. Something. Because nothing is going to force us to abandon our deeply cherished theory that gender roles are culturally imposed and have nothing to do with biology. Even the fact that animals have gender roles too, though ethologists call them sex roles, so as not to embarrass their human-focused colleagues.
Of course children's toy choices are only statistically gendered. Some girls like tanks and some boys like dolls (dolls not carrying machine guns that is.) And some of these oddball girls and boys grow up to be gay, or bisexual. Though plenty grow up to be as straight as the creases on Obama's pants.
I never said the kids needed adult assistance with finding what for them are comfortable gender roles, though in a lot of families boys who play with dolls and girls who play with tanks aren't going to get a lot of adult support. My basic point, though, is that the idea that kids are unfamiliar with gender roles and sexual identity is ridiculous.
"any comprehension of gay sex at age 5"
No one is teaching 5 year olds about sex, gay or otherwise.
Flat out bullshit.
Five-year-olds do not have a sexual identity.
You are making up 'memories' based on your feelings ten or fifteen years later (or more).
Is that your professional opinion as a scientist?
It's the professional opinion of decades of child development scientists - including those employed by the NIH.
Humans do not begin to develop a sexual identity until they are almost 10. A five-year-old with a firm sexuality would be world-shaking and a developmental miracle that would upset biologists, psychiatrists, and huge swathes of medical researchers!
Alternately, K2 has made up memories of his early childhood like almost everyone else does.
Education Expenditures by Country
"In 2017, the United States spent $14,100 per full-time-equivalent (FTE) student on elementary and secondary education, which was 37 percent higher than the average of Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) member countries of $10,300 (in constant 2019 U.S. dollars). At the postsecondary level, the United States spent $34,500 per FTE student, which was 102 percent higher than the average of OECD countries ($17,100)."
Maybe we just spend it badly, instead? I wonder if 'new math' is taught elsewhere?
I didn't say more per pupil; I said adequately funding. Though you're probably right that at least some of it could be better spent.
I didn't say more per pupil; I said adequately funding
So, buzz words.
Half of that US post-secondary spending is probably on football.
You're not wrong.
Increasing funding for schools doesn't change outcomes. We've tried that. Money is not the problem. (Indeed, additional money rarely goes to teachers at all - it goes to more administrators, which is why the number of administrators per teacher has more than quadrupled in the last several decades, and that's probably understating it).
The fact that additional funds don't go to teacher pay is probably one of the main problems. Teacher pay, especially for new teachers, is incredibly low for people with college (and often advanced) degrees.
Note, Joe, that the law is not restricted to teaching in grades 1-3, or even teenagers. If "state standards," set by the idiots who run FL, decide that it is "not age appropropriate" to discuss any of this in a class for high school seniors it becomes illegal to "teach."
So what? Schools don't exist to serve teachers.
Why so eager for adults to engage in sex-related talk with other peoples' children?
Especially age-appropriate sex talk.
What is wrong with you people? No one is talking about sex. This isn't sex education we're talking about.
Gaslighting
"fwiw - the human mind lacks the capacity to understand those concepts until the person reaches puberty."
Ask your average five-year-old if he/she knows anyone with two dads or two moms and you'll see how ignorant this is. They are absolutely capable of understanding that male-male and female-female parents are the same as male-female parents. No one is going.to talk to them about sex at that age, just like they haven't been teaching about heterosexual sex in the past.
Unless you're one of those people who wants to pretend that talking about homosexual couples means talking about sex. That would make you dishonest and a gaslighter.
My local school board dove into the CRT pool head first. When it came time to choose an interim replacement for a resigning member the only thing the school board had to say about the winning candidate was their pleasure at her commitment to "antiracism". I have no idea if she ever met a child, but she could talk the talk.
And yet when I talked to a student of that school system she hadn't noticed any of the white guilt stuff. She hadn't noticed that the principal decided the January 6 incident was the opportunity to go on a rant about how the land here was stolen from Native American tribes. So I tentatively think the fear is overblown, not because CRT is not an evil racist theory but because its proponents are not up to the task of teaching it.
Me, I promote Coastal Elites Theory when I can. Not being a school employee I am not bound by school doctrine.
I think a less controversial example is the Armenian genocide. Or the mysterious Armenian disappearance if you like. There is a significant Armenian minority in some Boston suburbs. (I have seen Armenian writing in the wild.) Not much Turkish influence to oppose it. So it was decided that schools around here would start teaching that there was a genocide, rather than calling it sporadic disorganized violence or omitting it from history. A parent sued saying he didn't want his child being fed lies. But schools are allowed to teach children lies as long as they are not religious lies.
The land was not 'stolen' from the tribes that were here just prior to 'our' arrival. We won it fair and square in military conflict, the historical way of gaining land.
(just for the record, the tribes that were here when we arrived got the land the same way. They took it from those who were here before them.)
So killing someone and taking their property does not constitute stealing in LTBF's world.
Not when done by the government.
Just like the USA. Which is the world I live in.
"taking their property does not constitute stealing"
bernard11, receiver of stolen property.
Note that word "their". There are only two possibilities:
1. Back then, when it was done by military conquest it did not constitute stealing.
2. Even back then, taking someone's property by military conquest did constitute stealing, in which case our predecessors didn't do that, because the property in question didn't belong to the people they took it from.
To allow a third possibility, you have to come up with an explanation for why the property did belong to the people our predecessors took it from, but doesn't now belong to us.
Obviously, this is an issue that will not be resolved by reason and logic. The only long term solution is school choice, which means fragmentation of education. If parents divide into a dozen clusters of views, we'll have a dozen school systems.
Seldom is the depth of cleavage in our society acknowledged. By analogy, try to imagine a school system that educated both Israeli and Palestinian children. Russian/Ukraine. Uygur/Han. Kurdish/Turkish. What will the curriculum say? How foolish to not recognize that these cleavages are reflected in school curricula.
Another way out, is to teach only STEM technical subjects, excluding all social/civil/historical aspects of education. 2+2=4 is not controversial, but there is great value in learning STEM subjects. Don't forget, we already accomplished the near total exclusion of religion from curricula.
"2+2=4 is not controversial"
Not familiar with the fight over 'new' math? There is NO topic an educational fad can't screw up the teaching of.
Which new math are you referring to? Because your complaint could be from Tom Lehrer in 1965.
It's new to you, so it's bad.
"It's new to you, so it's bad."
That's not what he said. You can infer which new math Brett was referring to from the context. I would imagine that in other contexts new math could refer to something that he would approve of.
You overlook the fact that if they only teach STEM, we can objectively determine which teachers are competent.
This is unacceptable to the propagandists.
" 2+2=4 is not controversial"
2+2=22 🙂
Like the accountant being interviewed:
Q. What is 2 + 2?
A. What do you want it to be?
Hired on the spot.
"2+2=4 is not controversial,"
You'd think, but no. It's controversial.
The left wants us to believe that there is no objective truth so it can get people to believe whatever it wants.
Rats.
https://medium.com/arc-digital/mathgate-or-the-battle-of-two-plus-two-ed4af5f32933
"The left."
One nutcase becomes "the left."
Not one; all the nutcases become the left.
Is it true that all nutcases are leftists? No, I don't think so.
Is it true that all leftists are nutcases? Yes, I think there's a strong case to be made for this proposition.
There are several nutcases mentioned in that article. Popular Mechanics wrote an article about it: Why Some People Think 2+2=5
Several, eh?
You gotta stop this nutpicking generalization nonsense. It's divorcing you from reality. Especially when it comes to education.
You don't think an exchange that showed that several prominent education accounts believe that two plus two doesn't equal four should lead to an inference that there's a large problem there? Well, you do you.
This is nowhere near your original goalposts. And you know it.
The original goalposts were a claim that 2+2=4 was not controversial. I pointed to a situation where a claim that 2+2=4 generated controversy. It's a perfectly valid counterargument.
It's still not controversial, chief.
So how many people need to profess the belief before it becomes "controversial"?
There's not a number threshold, don't be silly. But no, the questioning of is 2+2 not 4 is not going to be encountered in most any classroom.
You know this. TiP knows this.
And yet you are so desperate to have a cause to fight against, you'll do all you can to pretend this is a going issue.
You claimed the statement was not controversial, and your position was disproven by an example where the statement was challenged and generated a controversy.
You then declared that one example of generating controversy wasn't enough to be controversial.
Do you know what type of fallacy that is?
The original goalposts were, "[t]he left wants us to believe that there is no objective truth so it can get people to believe whatever it wants."
It's right there in the article I linked too. The author of Seattle's social justice math curriculum (so no nutpicking) tweeted "let's see how we can make [2+2=5] a true statement."
If you're unfamiliar with critical theory's view of objectivity as a tool of the oppressor, feel free to google it.
"The Left" is such a wide strange place to you. They all believe this & all want that. They are all confused and/or corrupted. Humans generalize & stereotype stuff to help understand. Or to deliberately not understand stuff. In this and nearly all human judgement, there is a balance point between different ways of doing things. Non-binary thinking doesn't fare well in these threads. "The left wants us to believe that there is no objective truth so it can get people to believe whatever it wants." That isn't "The Left". It is the way understanding works. These objective & truth words you use. Somebody made those up. There really is no objective human understanding. It is all subjective. Please note, The Right has very good success getting people to believe anything they want as well.
"The Left" is such a wide strange place to you. They all believe this & all want that
In fact "The Left" is much more homogeneous than "The Right."
Lefty-ness is consistently associated with :
- enthusiasm for equality
- enthusiasm for government programs to achieve social ends
- lack of enthusiasm for religion
- internationalism
- democracy being more important than liberty
- the need for government to own, or at least regulate, important businesses to run them for social purposes
- the ends justify the means
How strongly you feel about each of those varies of course. it's possible to be a religious lefty, but it's not really possible to be a small government lefty.
"The Right" however is simply everyone else, who isn't a lefty. So it encompasses authoritatian monarchists and reactionaries who want to control big businesses just as much lefties do - just for different social purposes; classical liberals who disapprove of authoritarian monarchists just as much as they disapprove of socialists; religious types who wish to incorporate at least some of their religion's teachings into law, Imperialists, and even "National Socialists" who agree with other socialists on almost everything, except which particular definition of Volk the State is to be organised to benefit. The Right is a ragbag which would be more aptly titled "The Rest."
It's true that lefties are naturally fissiparous, always likely to split off into ever smaller groups on detailed matters of doctrine that are invisible to ordinary people. But the general tone is much the same - the world should be run collectively, ostensibly to benefit the downtrodden, and arithmetic is a sin.
You're religion bit is questionable.
You're wrong on 'democracy over liberty'
You're wrong on nationalizing important businesses
And then you say 'ends justify the means'.
Do you not even have the self control to try and explain what the other side is without lapsing into polemic?
And defining the right as 'against the left' is pretty telling, my reactionary friend.
You're religion bit is questionable.
Well, to take three obvious examples - the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Spanish Civil War - the lefties were vehemently anti the churches and the priests, to the extent of actively seeking them out to murder. And then there's that "opium of the people" thing. Closer to home, we discover that when it comes to American domestic controversies and lawsuits that impact the lives of religious folk, the lefties are invariably on one side rather than the other.
You're wrong on 'democracy over liberty'
Nope. I'm right. And as well as being right in practice, I'm also right by definition. Since "equality" - however defined - and government solutions to the lack of it, are central to leftism, it is simply not possible to pursue the basic ends of leftism without infringing liberty. There are all sorts of types who urge voluntary help for the poor and downtrodden, and the voluntary running of commercial enterprises for ends other than profit. But you simply can't be a proper card carrying lefty if you insist that voluntary means to these goals are the way. The whole point of being a lefty is that you insist on pursuing them by government force.
You're wrong on nationalizing important businesses
Nationalising was popular on the left until nationalising things demonstrated the utter cluster****ishness of nationaiising things. Now regulating is much preferred. Hence I said "to own, or at least regulate, important businesses." The urge is to control.
And defining the right as 'against the left' is pretty telling
Actually I defined it as "anything that is not the left" rather than "against the left." Obviously since leftism is collectivist and hegemonous, leftist attempts to run your life for you might well in due course encourage you to be "against the left", but the real algorithm is that if you are not of the left, the left is against you.
But you gaily skipped past the point even here. As I explained, pieces of The Right (aka The Rest) can be just as "against" other pieces of The Right, as they may be "against" The Left. A classical liberal is not defined by being "Against the Left" - there's a whole host of authoritarianisms, collectivisms, and illiberalisms for a classical liberal to be against.
Obviously since leftism is collectivist and hegemonous, leftist attempts to run your life for you might well in due course encourage you to be "against the left", but the real algorithm is that if you are not of the left, the left is against you.
Obviously, you define yourself as against the left, but I'm not sure you have a strong sense of what the left is other than kinda vague redbaiting.
The left is *very much* not monolithic. To a fault. Hilarious you think otherwise.
What part of "fissiparous" are you struggling with ?
I think another important factor is transparency: Are people willing to publicly show what they want to be taught in government-backed schools? If the public can see that, it can have an informed debate on the merits. By that metric, the people backing CRT have done very poorly; they act as if they have something to hide.
Switching gears, I do not think experience in teaching children counsels deference in deciding whether to teach particular political theories as truth. These educators only see their pupils for a few years, and have little or no feedback about effects in the longer term. One might just as (un-) soundly argue that principals should have the discretion to use corporal punishment in their school because it maintains order.
It is easy to find the texts and teaching materials your child will be using in school. The "people backing CRT" don't have anything to show because CRT isn't taught in American schools.
Prof. Volokh, you've phrased this as a question about K-12 education, but is there a reason the same conclusions wouldn't hold for post-secondary schooling?
Government doesn't mandate attendance in post-secondary schools, most obviously. The government also has almost a monopoly on primary and secondary schools, although that has more debatable constitutional implications.
Presumably because except in rare instances most post secondary students are legally adults able to vote, make their own decisionas and have sex with whoever they want.
I'll have a separate post about this in a few days.
What are you, some kinda blog tease?
The first taste is free. Don't you want more? It'll make your (brain) feel good!
When teachers teach it is paid speech, not free speech in any sense. Those paying for the performance have the right to control what is said so long as the teacher is being paid to talk.
With the increasing role of government in all aspects of our lives government employees have come to the conclusion that they are in control of the taxpayer, not the reverse. School boards and teacher unions have decided that they have the right and the duty to direct the students to 'correct beliefs.' Parents are unqualified to make decisions in these areas and are, in fact, unqualified to even complain.
Parents are unqualified to make decisions in these areas and are, in fact, unqualified to even complain.
Why on earth would you suppose state legislators would be any better qualified? At least parents can come to their own decisions, without worrying about their standing with a mistaken majority.
I think Mr Dinkle is speaking sarcastically, out of the mouth of a hypothetical teacher's union spokes-hack - ie it is the opinion of our unelected masters, rather than the opinion of Mr Dinkle himself, that parents are unqualified to make decisions about their children's education.
But to answer your question, state legislators are better qualified than parents because, collectively, they have the power to do something about it. Parents can whine and complain but they have no power - except via the chain leading from elections to legislators to laws to enforcement of those laws.
Absent the obvious, unanswerable, solution, which is to nuke government schools from orbit, and replace them with an all-private system; as EV points out - if you have government schools, some government official gets to decide what gets taught.
Is it to be the elected government officials or the unelected ones ? For a considerable while the elected ones have left it to the subordinate unelected ones. But an increasing number of the elected ones, not to mention the powerless (except with their votes) parents, have noticed that what the unelected government officials are up to is not to their liking. And so they are handing out new instructions.
"if you have government schools, some government official gets to decide what gets taught."
Apparently you don't understand the textbook market. With the exception of a few large states (Texas being the most aggressive, but California and New York also have the necessary buying power) not even states, let alone a "government administrator", school districts or individual schools, has much control over the texts used in K-12 schools.
"what gets taught" and the textbook may not be particularly correlated. Sure, an unimaginative teacher can just plow through the book, but better teachers will use parts of the text they like, and find or develop other material if they don't like the text's coverage. I know my better half used the book for a relatively small part of the material.
Agreed. But if the teaching material isn't CRT, the instruction isn't CRT. CRT is literally an entire analytic theory, not just a teacher who thinks that systemic racism exists.
Are there teachers who inject their own opinions into their instruction? Absolutely. But, again, that doesn't mean schools are teaching CRT.
Unless you think that anyone who believes any part of CRT should be banned from teaching?
Dude didn't even mention CRT and yet you went straight to your talking points about it.
Nelson
Apparently you don’t understand the textbook market. With the exception of a few large states (Texas being the most aggressive, but California and New York also have the necessary buying power) not even states, let alone a “government administrator”, school districts or individual schools, has much control over the texts used in K-12 schools.
And yet somehow Florida managed to set up a system to review books and reject some. Much to the consternation of people who did want SEL passages in primary school math books.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095042273/ron-desantis-florida-textbooks-social-emotional-learning
Publishers did then edit their math books. Turns out books can edited and printed in smaller batches these days. And publishers would like to be able to sell them in FL. So yes, States do have quite a bit of choice in books used.
By the way: at the time I did do some hunting to try to find the content of those books. It was not easy to do. But some of the advertising of some of the books showed passages that have colorful cartoons of animal characters talking about their feelings and over coming adversity. Inside the math book.
You can have different ideas of what’s horrible. But evidently Florida legislature has decided they want their math books to contain math.
Drat-- I thought I put blockquotes in the above.
When I was a kid I if somebody said that boys who play with dolls are really girls and should have their testicles removed, that person would have gotten in trouble for some sort of bullying.
But now we the education establishment has gotten itself into this weird cult where we have to pass laws to prevent the teachers from bullying the students. Terrible.
Oops, wrong spot.
"Parents are unqualified to make decisions in these areas and are, in fact, unqualified to even complain."
There are studies that show that this is worse in lower-income, inner-city schools, where the teachers view the parents primarily as "help labor."
"At Jefferson, enactments of parent involvement drew upon some aspects of parent partnership models (Epstein, 2001), such as volunteering in school, but did not give the parents the same opportunities to engage in planning, decision-making, and school leadership. The teachers at Jefferson did not talk about or treat parents as partners or intellectual equals, as research has shown is the case at middle class schools (Lareau, 2003). They also did not collaborate with the parents to support home or family goals, as is implied by the term partnership. The parents at Jefferson had little say about the kind of help they could or should provide. Instead, teachers assigned parents tasks that they themselves determined would be helpful to compensate for their lack of teachers’ aides and paraprofessionals. In this way, parents became indispensible help labor for the teachers. "
Doesn't the Golden Rule apply at all? "He who provides the Gold, provides the Rules?" The idea that an employee can do whatever they want without control by the employer seems ... a particularly government position.
Or, as teachers in (almost?) every state require State Certifications, can't the state, IDK, set the renewal of certifications based on behaviors, i.e., what is taught?
Shorter Volokh: Scopes lost, so why shouldn't that mean we let state legislators outlaw teaching evolution?
If you answer that question by saying, sure, it's the law, and the constitution does not say otherwise, then there is something wrong with your answer. I guess the task is to figure out what it is.
A state power to outlaw truth in schools is not any useful part of American constitutionalism. That needs a bigger part in the discussion than EV gives it.
One point might be that however competent compared to others state lawmakers may be, they are fundamentally at cross purposes when asked to stand up for truth against a majority. I suggest making that a legal principle to authorize moving curriculum decision-making to others who are not similarly conflicted. How you do that over the objections of the aforesaid legislators remains a puzzle.
As a matter of law, they would be entitled to ban teaching evolution in public schools.
I've pointed this out before: The Constitution doesn't enact your policy preferences. It's actually constitutional for you to lose policy arguments, and this doesn't strike people other than yourself as a defect in the Constitution.
this doesn't strike people other than yourself as a defect in the Constitution.
Coming from you, Brett, this is laughable.
I may think it is a defect in the Constitution that it does not enact my policies, but I don't assume people with different policy preferences agree.
You sure as fuck do, Brett.
You have posted here over and over and over again that those who disagree that the Constitution enacts your policy preferences actually agree with your take (because it's obvious) and are lying about it.
Judges who don't agree with you are ruling in bad faith and breaking their oaths. Massive numbers of them.
This has been your reliable position.
Question for you, Sarcastr0:
In your opinion, a judge who upholds a criminal conviction based on this law (see link below) be "ruling in bad faith and breaking [his or her] oath"?
https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-senate-votes-to-criminalize-local-leaders-who-enact-right-to-work/
No, they wouldn't be.
State regulation of local government is well within state powers.
I don't know the IL constitution, so there may be an issue there.
But the federal constitution doesn't have much to say about rights for local municipalities to pass certain laws - operative rights are generally individually held. I don't know of any that are municipally held.
One point might be that however competent compared to others state lawmakers may be, they are fundamentally at cross purposes when asked to stand up for truth against a majority. I suggest making that a legal principle to authorize moving curriculum decision-making to others who are not similarly conflicted.
The quiet part is shouting again.
Actually the legal principle you are hunting for is "a government of limited powers" whereby the individual humans retain all the powers to make decisions for themselves except for a few that they cede, very specifically, to government. They certainly don't need to cede anything to government in the realm of schooling or education. There never was a sphere of life better suited to exclusively private provision.
So we just need a few dedicated folk to get the process moving on amending some State constitutions to limit the powers of their States accordingly.
I say "just" but of course it will probably also be necessary to impeach about 60% of the federal judiciary, who would otherwise be discovering federal constitutional rights to government education.
"A state power to outlaw truth"
Can you give examples from actual "CRT" bills?
I don't think it's out of copyright yet, but H. L. Mencken wrote a *Nation* article in 1925 which said legislatures could set the curriculum, even on the subject of evolution.
I mention Mencken because he is probably exempt from being criticized as a Protestant fundamentalist.
Shorter Volokh: Scopes lost, so why shouldn't that mean we let state legislators outlaw teaching evolution?
If you answer that question by saying, sure, it's the law, and the constitution does not say otherwise, then there is something wrong with your answer. I guess the task is to figure out what it is.
Shorter SL: What is 2+2? And don't say 4, you racist bastards.
My kingdom for an edit... Italics should have ended after the next paragraph.
Starting to question if you're just illiterate or don't understand your own bad faith in assuming everything Eugene posts is in bad faith.
Also, I think public education is akin to the Tower of Babel, where a uniform, monolithic 'understanding' leads to evil. For that reason, I think a balkanization, or, diversity if you will, of teaching institutions providing competing methods, foci and principles might be for the best education (if not the individual, then on the whole) citizenry.
Unified schools districts are an abominations.
" 2+2=4 is not controversial"
You need to decolonize your mind. Your expectations of correct answers are a Eurocentric narrative based on white supremacy and oppression of minorities.
2+2 =4 is only true for bases >= 5. I.e., 2+2 = 1 (base 2), and 2+2=0 (base 4)
2 + 2 = 1 base 3. Damnit all to hell.,
Of course; because we all know there is no 2 in base two.
Wait, isn't 2+2 = 11 base 3?
Correct. We should kindly assume a typo, given the way comments here sometimes function.
Yeah, I hate commenting on my iOS device. My typing on a keyboard almost keeps up with my thinking, but thumbing on a mobile device, and I look every bit the 54 year old I am.
2+2=4 is true in all bases, even though it might be expressed differently.
Racist.
You're just quibbling about symbols rather than meaning. 2+2 = 11 in base 3, but 11 base 3 = 4 base 5 (or higher). It's mathematically the same answer. Changing the base doesn't change the math. You're arguing semantics, not math.
And, absent an explicit statement of base (or a context in which a different base makes sense, which pretty much only exists for binary or hexidecimal), base 10 is implicit.
This is of course a fundamental problem with the 'woke' left, they're more interested in signs and signifiers than actual substance. At least with a traditional Marxist you can have a discussion about real things.
Yes, all of this falls squarely in the category of "stupid but not unconstitutional".
I suppose if I was in the law school hypotheticals business I might be able to invent a hypo that pushed the boundaries towards child abuse, in the sense that it implicates the "best interests of the child" standard, but even then it's not necessarily going to be a problem legally under US law, given how much the supremacy clause as applied to treaties made has been reduced to dead letter by successive Supreme Court judgments.
(Well that and the fact that the US is one of the few countries, together with the Cook Islands, Niue, the State of Palestine, and the Holy See, not to have ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.)
There's a movement to teach students Free-Market Capitalism, the theory that on balance economic liberty is a huge boon for mankind, and that regulations of free markets are usually counterproductive. (I should add that I think this is an important and respectable theory, and I'm inclined to think that it's mostly correct, though the question is always which regulations, however rare, are necessary.)
It is, bluntly, impossible to teach this without first teaching a solid course in micro-economics.
And if you understand the course in microeconomics you will realize that this is an extreme, ideological, concept, and that free market, while an excellent fundamental way to run an economy, nonetheless have their flaws and failures.
On even further understanding, you realize ALL systems have their failure modes. (For a given definition of "failure.") And you just have to pick which failure you want to have to battle. Crony capitalism? The gulag?
The gulag?
Really?
And market failures are by no means limited to crony capitalism. As I've suggested before you really need a good course in economics.
Like that one that you "learned" from? Did you pick up a copy of "Economics for Dummies"?
"For a given definition of " failure.""; We may not even agree about what qualifies as a failure!
I'd like to think that you are not refusing to recognize an American gulag as a system failure. (Having been exposed to leftist thinking, I can't be certain, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.) So, what are you saying? That it's only those backward Russians who'd set up a gulag? That it couldn't possibly happen in an English-speaking country with a long tradition of freedom & democracy? Ayn Rand didn't think so. Neither did George Orwell.
The question is not whether or not free markets have the occational failure.
The question is: Is there any significant possibility of government intervention not making those failures even worse?
More than "occasional."
And yes, there is, your ideology notwithstanding.
Sure: Since, as Adam Smith relates, businessmen seldom meet for any reason without conspiring in restraint of trade, government could intervene to frustrate those conspiracies.
Sadly, one of government's classic failures is enforcing them, instead.
I think that teachers should have latitude within their classrooms to decide how to teach certain subjects, but yes, the school board and the legislature should have the ultimate say. The school board and the legislature are the elected officials who are answerable to the public. If the teacher has absolute control, what exactly is the recourse if they teach that the moon is made of green cheese and aliens are controlling us through TV signals? The idea that an employer controls how an employee does a job is not that controversial.
During the Solar Eclipse of 2017 local Pubic Elementary School kept the kids inside, you know, they might put an Eye out looking at the sun.
Coastal Elites Theory sounds like the prerequisite for Nazism 101.
No. I'm not exaggerating.
Of course you aren’t. Because everyone in flyover country has a little Nazi inside just waiting to come out.
Well, first of all, it appears to be a hypothetical, which I missed, and maybe you did too.
Second, you're so quick to criticize that you didn't give any thought to what I wrtote.
I did not say, or imply, that "everyone in flyover country has a little Nazi inside just waiting to come out." (I spent a long time living in flyover country, BTW, and have lots of friends there.) I said that advocacy specifically of what Eugene described sounded like Nazism-light.
Go back to touting your own virtue.
Your understanding of... most things, is hilariously lacking.
What did he misunderstand? You're thinking of something, but you didn't say what it is.
I'd just like a bit more context than an empty insult.
I took it as satire and a hypothetical, which I thought was obvious.
And you saw no reason at all to throw around the Nazi thing, but you did anyway because it’s like a requirement for membership in your tribe.
Wait, Bernard and Marjorie Taylor Greene are in the same tribe with Jim Jordan and Ted Cruz?
Mind blown.
You can't possibly be so dense as not to see that Prof. Volokh is intentionally parodying the (indeed Nazi-like*) Critical Race Theory?!
* CRT differs from Nazi racial doctrines only in its choice of target -- it targets "whites" rather than Jews.
Legally, it seems a no-brainer to me that state legislatures can regulate state schools, and that school boards have generally been delegated that authority as well.
Best practice would be to have a norm where neither interferes much with the expertise of teachers. The fact that many people furious about CRT have no idea what it is provides a good object lesson why.
But now that norm has gone away, like so many others, grist for the red-meat mills of partisan politics.
So what's the new best practice, if relying on norms no longer works? If you can expect State legislatures to get into a school's business whenever they need to make some partisan hay?
Absent federalizing public schools, I really don't have a solution.
And don't think I haven't noticed that the side that is into this meddling is also hostile to the concept of public schools anyhow, so any collateral destruction is kind of a bonus.
Or we could act like good communists.
The first thing they do is put the teachers against the wall.
You're right, I think, but let's note, JFTR, that lots of those advocating for the state legislatures to ban things are all about the virtues of "local control" when the results suit them.
Who advocates local control down to subdivisions of the state? Besides the voices in your head.
"expertise of teachers"
A mainly imaginary concept.
Teachers are mainly trained in teaching, they don't do subject matter courses beyond basic requirements.
I don't know that that's true, they are the experts by virtue of being the ones actually dealing with the kids and seeing how the subjects are implemented day to day.
Again, I point out the politicians not exactly knowing what CRT is, but that not stopping them from legislating about it.
Many teachers are experts in the fields that they teach.
But no teacher is an "expert" in whether or not schools should be teaching reading writing, and arithmetic, vs trying to instill particular views about race relations or gender ideology.
And many parents have a perfectly good idea of what Critical Race Theory is when it is being taught in schools.
Teachers will know more about what's going on in the schools than, say, you do. That's generalizable well beyond area of expertise. I don't go to you for a sense of what's going on in a classroom, but I would go to an actual teacher.
Teachers also think more about pedagogy than those who mostly write polemics on the Internet for a living.
That you turn from saying teachers aren't experts into a rant about how they're corrupting our kids on race and gender shows that expertise isn't really your issue here.
"Teachers will know more about what's going on in the schools than, say, you do. That's generalizable well beyond area of expertise. I don't go to you for a sense of what's going on in a classroom, but I would go to an actual teacher."
And when I go to actual teachers, and read what they write, they say that they are focusing on things like social justice pedagogy, equitable math (including the idea that focus on getting the right answer is white supremacy), and cultural competency
So I ask again, are teachers experts on whether or not they should focus on things like reading, writing, and arithmetic vs social justice, equitable math, cultural competency, and gender ideology?
And anyway, what's your model for feedback and error correction in public institutions?
If you think someone in the private sector is producing a suboptimal product, you find someone producing a better produce.
In the public sector it's more complicated, you have to pressure the public sector to produce a better product, and sometimes vote for candidates that you think will steer the bureaucracy to produce a better product.
But in your view, you just listen to the teachers and believe them when they say that everything's just fine, or that they need more funding, or whatever?
*YOU* don't seem to know what critical race theory is. Hint: it has little directly to do with race relations.
Teaching the bad stuff white folks did to black folks in the past may make you uncomfortable, but it's not CRT.
"Teaching the bad stuff white folks did to black folks in the past may make you uncomfortable, but it's not CRT."
Lol. Of course not, and nobody says it is, other than maybe a few nutjobs. Schools have been teaching that pretty much forever.
The fact that you have to erect a strawman is more evidence that you actually don't have an argument.
"And many parents have a perfectly good idea of what Critical Race Theory is when it is being taught in schools."
Having seen a bunch of videos of parents objecting to CRT, and doing it in schools that don't teach CRT (which is all of them), it's pretty clear they are completely clueless about CRT and are just parroting talking points from their favorite shit-stirring infotainment site.
And typically outlawing specific objectionable doctrines. Which, if they have nothing to do with CRT, why complain about the law.
Because when a legislature outlaws something they don't know what it is, that's going to be vague and chilling.
And also pretty dumb and bad practice.
"Because when a legislature outlaws something they don't know what it is, that's going to be vague and chilling."
Do you have a cite to a bill where a legislature is outlawing something that they don't know what it is?
I doubt the Florida legislature knows what instruction and age-appropriate instruction they are outlawing.
The goal is to be chilling. Teachers shouldn’t be talking to young children about sex-related topics. Why do they want to? Yeah, let’s chill that.
Teachers shouldn’t be trying to make students feel bad about their race or about other races. Yeah, let’s chill that.
Why shouldn’t they be chilled? Children aren’t toys for teachers to use.
The concern is not the stuff that isn't generally happening will be chilled, Ben...
So you’re concerned that completely unrelated stuff will be chilled? Does that concern make sense in any way?
Why is it so unimaginably hard to ask teachers to try to stay on subject and not use children for the teachers' personal [anything]? Children aren’t there for the teachers' benefit.
Does a teacher using a child's reading book that depicts a same-sex couple raising a child violate the Florida law?
Why are teachers so eager to hand out sex-related material to children? What drives them to want such material?
Pushing an agenda in schools is using children. Stop trying to use children for anything.
Are you arguing that a child's reading book that depicts a same-sex couple raising a child is " sex-related material"?
It might or might not be. Let’s see every page of the book and I’ll tell you whether it’s sex-related or not.
Again, what’s the need to force such material on 5 or 7 year olds? Why not stop using children for your agenda instead? Children don’t go to school for your usage.
Assume the material is exactly the same as another book that depicts an opposite-sex couple for which you find acceptable.
Choosing to permit the opposite-sex couple book while banning the same-sex couple book forces an agenda on children as well. No matter what, we have to choose the agenda. I'll take the one that teaches equal rights and dignity.
You want to use the children for your agenda. That’s not the purpose of schools and it breaks the social contract that schools are based on.
If you want to setup your own schools to teach your values, go ahead. Don’t tax away parents' education dollars to teach kids values that may be alien to their families. It’s a hostile thing to do.
And, you want to use the schools for your agenda. The social contract is that the majority of parents should decide which agenda prevails.
Leaving aside the issue of whether that majority should be statewide, districtwide or even down specific classrooms, we first need honesty about what the agendas are so parents can decide. If the Florida bill outlaws the book I described, it isn't being honest. It claims to stopping instruction in sexuality, but the honest agenda is not to depict gay people as equals.
Math isn’t an agenda. Reading isn’t an agenda. Science isn’t an agenda. Writing isn’t an agenda. Languages aren’t an agenda.
Subject matter about depicting specific subgroups of people in specific ways to benefit adults — that’s an agenda.
You want to use children for your own ends instead of helping them learn. Stop it.
Firstly, you did not address my point that the Florida law is not honest about combating this agenda. Secondly, reading material that depicts only opposite-couples raising a child depicts a subgroup (heterosexuals) in a specific way, and thus is also an agenda. Do you oppose such books because they too use children to reach the ends desired by some adults.
Secondly, reading material that depicts only opposite-couples raising a child depicts a subgroup (heterosexuals) in a specific way, and thus is also an agenda. Do you oppose such books because they too use children to reach the ends desired by some adults.
I think we can actually use an insight, albeit a banal one, from "critical theory" here. Reading material is generated by an actual author and while it is possible that an author who generates reading material depicting a heterosexual couple raising a child is consciously doing so to advance her "agenda", it's also possible - indeed rather likely - that she is doing so because that is the sort of child raising couple most familiar to her, the heterosexual subgroup of child raisers being an overwhelming majority of child raising couples.
Meanwhile the author who depicts a homosexual child raising couple might be doing it because that is the image that naturally pops into her head first, but it's considerably more likely that she's doing it to further her agenda. (My assessment of likelihoods is based on the assumption that reading material for schools does not tend to be offered for publication disproportionately by those whose personal experience was and/or is of homosexual child raising couples.)
So the same sex couple in the reading material is more likely to be agenda driven than the opposite sex couple.
However, critical theory (not to mention common sense which predates critical theory by some millenia) would advise us that even if the author composing the conventional heterosexual couple story is not consciously pursuing an agenda, but merely reaching for the familiar, that does not mean that her story is not serving to present the world in a particular way, that may seem unfamiliar to a minority of pupils, and may in its effects be indistinguishable from an agenda driven story.
Forget about the author. What about a teacher who goes out of her way not to assign the same-sex couple book (that is what the Florida law does, assuming it bans such a book)? Seems like an agenda to me.
What about a teacher who goes out of her way not to assign the same-sex couple book
Well if she deliberately goes out of her way not to assign the same-sex couple book, because the couple are same-sex, then sure that's an agenda, or at least same-sexness is her reason. But precisely what her agenda or reason is, may or may not be anti-gayitude.
Thus she might also rule out teaching from a book that portrays a couple raising a child, where each of the couple is missing a limb. That may be prejudice against the disabled, but it could just as well be that she thinks the depicted disabilities are (a) atypical and thus (b) a distraction. Atypicality may be a good thing to introduce to older children, where you are trying to open their minds to unfamiliar points of view. But if you're just trying to teach them to read, or grasp the basics of something, atypical distractions may be ..... distracting.
Or her objection to the same sex couple book may not be personal animus but knowledge that some parents will regard it as controversial. Just as, perhaps, some teachers might reject a book depicting a keen-on-Trump MAGA couple raising a child. Or a couple of lawyers raising a child, which would obviously raise the ire of many an honest citizen. Some parents would find the depiction of a keen-on-Trump MAGA family (in a reasonably favorable light) as inappropriate. And keen-on-Trump MAGA families with children are way more common than same sex couple-led famiies with children.
There are all sorts of reasons for rejecting atypicality, distraction, controversy in school books. As well as reasons for accepting them.
But where the teacher accepts the typical, non-distracting, non-controversial book, in preference to the atypical, distracting or controversial book, that is much more likely simply to connote a desire to teach the matter directly at hand, without distraction or controversy.
When the Florida legislature goes way, way, way out of its way to ban teaching the same-sex couple book (assuming it has done so), it doesn't pass the laugh test that it chose to do so to avoid distraction or controversy.
Lots of contentious questions and suppositions, zero intent to actually help any kids learn.
You guys love to argue. But it’s obvious from the way you do it that you don’t give a shit about the kids or their families and you just want to use them for your own ends.
When the Florida legislature goes way, way, way out of its way to ban teaching the same-sex couple book (assuming it has done so), it doesn't pass the laugh test that it chose to do so to avoid distraction or controversy.
We were - most recently - discussing the author's and the teacher's choices.
As for the Florida legislature, it is reacting to school / school board / teacher choices that it perceives as having an agenda of which it disapproves. It is hard to believe that Florida legislators have become more anti-gay than they have been for the past 200 years, and yet this legislation is new. It's a reaction to politicising actions by schools and teachers.
Perhaps the first shot may turn out to be overbroad. If parents don't like it, they'll let their representatives know in the traditional fashion.
Personally, I can't in any event see any harm at all in pupils never seeing a book starring a same sex couple in school. It's not as if they don't get to see innumerable portrayals of same-sex couples being just fine and dandy on the TV.
What school choices (be very specific with citations)? I strongly suspect it is the right feeding red meat to its base.
"I point out the politicians not exactly knowing what CRT"
They know, they just don't accept the deceptive framing CRT advocates use.
LOL, so CRT isn't what the folks who study CRT is, it's this other thing I want to demonize.
That's some vintage Trotskyite semantic game-playing right there.
CRT advocates lie about what they are doing, yes
Language evolves. If CRT scholars and academics get to define words like racism and white supremacy for their own purposes, I don't know why concerned parents and others shouldn't do something similar with CRT.
That's not how language evolves, that's you excusing propaganda.
The fact that many people furious about CRT have no idea what it is
Did you finally read all about it, or are you still making shit up and attempting to pass it off as "the truth"?
I've posted definitions on this blog a couple of times.
Bottom line - critical theory is about systems having baked-in biases even if no one individually has any biased intent. It's largely a jurisprudential concept that your average high school class won't be touching.
Some teachers are instructed on it, but more for their own understanding of the systems of instruction they manage, not to teach it to kids.
Ah, the ever classic "nobody teaches CRT in grade school" distinction without a difference.
If they do, they’re not a true Scotsman, that’s for sure.
Sarcastro : critical theory is about systems having baked-in biases even if no one individually has any biased intent
Just as National Socialism is about the common people sticking together, under the guidance of a wise leader 🙂
Your definition is excessively bashful and self effacing and leaves out the actual content of critical theory - which is basically warmed over Marxism, flambéed a la Frankfurt. It's all about groups and their relative power - about identifying the oppressors and the oppressees, and organising to "correct" these things.
Thus Critical Race Theory, as a sub-branch, focusses on the identification of white folk as oppressors and black folk as oppressees, and seeks to even things up by inflicting a bit of oppression on the white folk by making them confess to their "privilege" in Maoist hazing rituals.
Critical theory is just "la lucha continua" where the marchers lay down their rifles on entering the institutions, rearm with pens, and settle themselves at administrative desks drafting new orders for us all. But they're the same orders they would have imposed with rifles if they'd rushed ahead 1917 style and burned down the institutions before making it to the desks.
'I reject your reality and substitute my own.'
And what a telling white oppression-filled red-baiting reality it is.
I share my reality with the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Not sure who's sharing yours :
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/critical-theory/
Critical Theory has a narrow and a broad meaning in philosophy and in the history of the social sciences. “Critical Theory” in the narrow sense designates several generations of German philosophers and social theorists in the Western European Marxist tradition known as the Frankfurt School.
And the Stanford-Moore reality is, in re the description of Critical Race Theory (the subject we're discussing remember), is white-oppression filled because CRT is a theory of ...... white-oppression.
You really must get out more.
"Best practice would be to have a norm where neither interferes much with the expertise of teachers."
This is like arguing that when we decide who gets incarcerated, we shouldn't interfere too much with the decisions of the police, because they're the experts in who commits crimes.
Telling analogy you chose.
What does it tell?
His priors when it comes to education.
Anything tells you anything if you embellish it with enough imagination, I guess.
"Who Decides What Is Taught in Government-Run K-12 Schools?"
I guess Prof. Volokh doesn't understand how our govt. works.
I mean, who decides:
How many aircraft carriers we need?
How many cops we need?
Where zoning laws apply?
How many Supreme Court Justices there are?
How much a marriage license fee is?
Seems more like he understands, but isn't sure how many in the public do.
Which is fair, though I'd bet this audience has a bit more of a foundation to get it right than most.
I'm less sure about this audience than you are. It looks like a wordy microcosm of the general public to me. Except with fewer moms.
I mean, who decides:
How many aircraft carriers we need?
How many cops we need?
Where zoning laws apply?
How many Supreme Court Justices there are?
How much a marriage license fee is?
None of those questions have the same answer, so what the hell is your attempted point?
Do you have to try to be this stupid, or does it come naturally?
Failed italics again <('.'<)
Actually they all have the same answer: Our elected representatives.
They’re called “public schools,” Professor. Use of the “government-run” formulation is unbecoming and childish.
England has public schools which are private.
US public schools *are* government-run, it's relevant to the point Prof. Volokh was making, and in any case, what's wrong with government schools that they have to be euphemized?
“Government-run” IS the euphemism. It was coined and is used in bad faith to elicit reflexive anti-government angst among the usual batch of easily manipulated and thoughtless choads and to insinuate something nefarious where there is nothing nefarious.
"Don't Say Gay" was coined and is used in bad faith to elicit reflexive anti-government angst among the usual batch of easily manipulated and thoughtless choads and to insinuate something nefarious where there is nothing nefarious.
Oh, Bob, clever as never I see.
euphemisms for me but not for thee
Who *does* run the public schools, if not the government?
A euphemism is a vague term covering up something which may be unpleasant. "Government-run schools" is a plain-English, correct statement.
“Government-run” IS the euphemism.
You mean dysphemism. Though as Cal explains, "government-run school" is entirely accurate, and is only derogatory, if you think a school being run by the government is ipso facto a bad thing.
Your love for government-run schools dares not speak its name.
Why ?
England has public schools which are private
Kinda. Several of the most well known English "public schools" were founded by Royal Charter by the King (or maybe established by the local Bishop) and were originally for the poor (not all the poor - just those with some scholastic aptitude.)
They were "endowed" - ie given a trust fund by the King / Bishop etc, they did not survive on tax revenue, but they didn't survive on fees paid by the pupils either. So they weren't "private" as in private businesses, they were (and remain) not-for-profits. In those days, the border between the King personally and the State was fuzzier, so whether you could have described them, at their founding, as "government schools" was also fuzzy. They had their Charter guaranteeing independence, but Parliament could always change that and thought about doing so in the 19th century.
The "public" means public in the sense of public accommodation. They were not schools that restricted entry to people from the local area (as did the parish schools) or to people of a particular religious denomination (though all of them would have carried on worship according to Church of England rites) or to the children of members of a particular trade or guild.
The issue with Florida’s law isn’t with the power of the state legislature to determine curriculum and procedures and the like within public schools. The issue is with how “instruction” and what is “age appropriate” are not defined in the law. In 2017 an elementary school teacher in Texas was placed on paid administrative leave after her welcome back to school presentation to her class included that she was engaged to a woman. (A parent had complained that she was “promoting the homosexual agenda.”) In 2020, the district settled her discrimination lawsuit for $100,000 and removed the discipline from her employment record, though without admitting fault.
Will parents now be able to sue teachers directly for such things in Florida? Will that implicate the First Amendment? What if a student mentions having two dads or two moms and the teacher answers questions other students have about that? What if a teacher is asked by a student to be called Michael instead of Elizabeth? Will that teacher be sued if they don’t notify the parents about what the law might consider to be the mental well-being of the student, even if the student doesn’t want the teacher to do so?
I am a public school teacher at a Florida high school. This law exposes me to all kinds of potential liability due to its vague requirements. It is clearly intended to chill my ability to speak on these topics with students and to have a trusting relationship with students that don’t conform to conservative ideas about sexual orientation and gender. That is why we deride this law as the “Don’t Say Gay” bill.
"t is clearly intended to chill my ability to speak on these topics with students"
Yes, because they don't think you should be speaking on these topics with students. They think you should be teaching grammar or math, or whatever else you were hire to teach..
"and to have a trusting relationship with students that don’t conform to conservative ideas about sexual orientation and gender."
K-3 students don't HAVE sexual orientations. And if you think a trusting relationship with a K-12 teacher should involve topics of this sort, maybe they think you shouldn't be trusted.
"and to have a trusting relationship with students that don’t conform to conservative ideas about sexual orientation and gender."
No, you call it that because, if you honestly explained the law, most people would think it a good law, and worry about why you found it offensive.
K-3 students don't HAVE sexual orientations. And if you think a trusting relationship with a K-12 teacher should involve topics of this sort, maybe they think you shouldn't be trusted.
Again, see what the law actually says and what its sponsors have said about it applying in all K-12 grades.
This idea that teachers are only there to teach their content and not discuss other things with kids is ridiculous. Having a trusting relationship with kids, even in high school, is essential to good teaching. Kids are still developing their social skills and ability to handle social anxiety. If they don't feel safe at school, they won't learn effectively. If nothing else, teachers are expected to be trusted adults for kids to come to if they are being bullied, abused at home, feeling depressed, and so on. Teachers are expected to be part of the solution for just about all of their problems in other areas (I have the receipts for the pencils, paper, and other supplies I buy with my own money so that kids whose parents can't or won't buy them these things still have them), so saying that it isn't my place to be there for students that have issues in these areas is highly selective.
This idea that teachers are only there to teach their content and not discuss other things with kids is ridiculous.
No, they're there to teach their content. If other incidental things happen to come up - like escorting them to the doctor if they've gashed their knee, or discreetly removing the sign that somebody has stuck to Angela's back saying "Angela is a slut" then fine, do the incidental things.
But that's just because teachers are temporarily in loco parentis, during the school day. Things that don't need to be dealt with in the three remaining hours before the children are returned to their parents can be, and should be, left to the parents. if the kid wants teacher's views on whether they should join the Army or get a sex change, the reponse should be - "You should discuss that with your parents."
Having a trusting relationship with kids, even in high school, is essential to good teaching.
Trusting as in don't trick the kids into believing the American Civil War was fought between the Cowboys and Injuns, sure. Otherwise, crap. A teacher's job is not to be a teenager's confidant - that path leads to a 15 year stretch for statutory rape.
"Michael, that's an important issue that you should discuss with your family. They can help you with a legal name change if they decide it's in your best interest."
"Florida high school"
So you aren't affected by a ban on teaching sex to k-3 kids.
None of those questions in your last para have anything to do with "teaching". Maybe in a "health" class.
Your desire to hide things from parents is alarming.
So you aren't affected by a ban on teaching sex to k-3 kids.
1) The law does not 'ban' 'teaching sex'. It refers only to sexual orientation and gender identity. Making this seem like it is aimed at preventing schools from teaching kids about sexual acts is completely wrong.
2) It is very clearly including all grades. You are taking the K-3 part and ignoring the "or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students." Don't take the bill's text or my word for it either. Multiple of the bill's sponsors admitted during debate over it that it covers all grades. https://www.winknews.com/2022/02/21/florida-rep-joe-harding-answers-questions-about-so-called-dont-say-gay-bill/
This legislator seemed to address the kinds of concerns I have, but as I am seeing in the comments here, there are people that don't agree with him and think that the bill does things that he says it won't do and doesn't do things that he says it will. That will inevitably lead to lawsuits against schools and individual teachers and Florida courts will have to decide what the law does and doesn't do with its vague language.
We don't say "gay"; we say homosexual.
Schools don't exist to serve teachers.
Welcome to America, land of public sector unions.
When I was a kid I if somebody said that boys who play with dolls are really girls and should have their testicles removed, that person would have gotten in trouble for some sort of bullying.
But now we the education establishment has gotten itself into this weird cult where we have to pass laws to prevent the teachers from bullying the students. Terrible.
If you didn't mean that they were adequately funded in contrast to US schools, I don't see your point. We're spending as much, if not more, and if that's not enough, I suggest the problem isn't funding levels, but instead what the funding is buying.
Having remotely tutored my brother's kids on math after they graduated high school and had trouble in college, and now seeing my son's math homework in a charter middle school, I think at least part of the problem is educational fads displacing boring techniques that merely work.
Or, to put it another way...
I sense the ways in which modern America might address these issues involve accreditation (schools) and professional standards (teachers and administrators).
Of course Eugene gets the law right. But on the merits, I would have both sides of all three hypotheticals debated in school, likely starting in junior high school.
The Florida law is entitled Parental Rights in Education bill. I'm not following how the state legislature banning local school boards and teachers from instructing on sexuality or gender identity furthers parents rights. And perhaps the biggest issue with the bill is the vagueness of instruction and (for 4-12 classes) age-appropriate instruction. Does a children's book that depicts a same-sex couple raising a child violate the law?
"instructing on sexuality or gender identity furthers parents rights"
It leaves "instructing on sexuality or gender identity" to parents, where it belongs.
What if the parents in a particular school district want teachers to provide instruction, where "instruction" is defined by those parents?
If every parent agrees, sure.
What happened to majority rule?
If the bill passes, then the parents in your hypothetical school district will have been overruled by the majority.
It won't reflect the wishes of the majority of parents in particular school districts.
A good overview of the topic, but I can see some objections to it.
(1) No, state governments do not pay for public schools, at least not with their own money; taxpayers do. So at some point taxpayers should have a First Amendment right to refuse to pay for advocacy they disagree with.
(2) CRT consists largely of the view that all differences in life outcomes between races are the result of malice by whites. This amounts to defamation of whites.
(3) Exercises such as "walking back your privilege," when kids are compelled to do them, amount to brainwashing. Parents certainly have a human right to refuse to let this be done to their children. I believe the children also have a right to refuse to do them.
You say brainwashing, I say child abuse.
The local school board should ultimately decide, obviously.
The problem, of course, is that only one of these hypos includes unlawful racial discrimination and states' efforts to do away with it. CRT promotes racial discrimination and teaching it creates an hostile educational environment, unless it's taught in the vain of "this is what the Nazis believed" type of way, which is not how CRT is use, especially in K-12.
There, it's the underlying racist tenets of CRT that are infused into the curriculum, even math and science, as if they're undeniably true. Disputing the racist premises of CRT is forbidden and those who do are viciously attacked and often cancelled.
Maybe the whole subject is just way too complex to come to any general definitive conclusion about. Maybe the variety & scope of the issues combined with strong emotional cultural ramifications is beyond laws, rules, & guidelines. Maybe goodwill and willingness to find what works can get past the ugly stupid ill will that has taken over. Ideology kills thought.
There is no such thing as a "free market". Whoever has power will manipulate & control the market. Whether they have to capture some or all of the government, or just have their guys take care of it. Government is just one kind of power apparatus. Like unions, churches, & cartels. Governments don't abuse people. People do.
If school attendance is compelled by law, what schools teach is more than just "the government opening up its own mouth". Especially since the audience is captive and impressionable.
Russia forced all its teachers to teach kids that the Ukraine invasion is justified. Does the U.S. have no constitutional safeguards against such things?
Only the 13th amendment.
After thinking it over, the curriculum authority I would prefer would include a two-level review of curriculum, plus political oversight of non-curriculum school issues, including funding and educational quality review.
At the general curriculum oversight level would be a board of scholars, with responsibility to review and approve textbooks, and adopt curriculum goals. Those I would appoint using committees of subject-matter-specialist veteran teachers, chosen by their colleagues.
At the local level, I would give teachers latitude, but require use of the standard texts chosen by the scholars committee. That would happen under the oversight of a local parents' committee consisting of parents of current students, who would be elected within their school districts. Parents' committees would have final authority over teaching methods and curriculum administration, and would settle educational policy disputes—but not administrative policy disputes—within the districts.
Politicians at the state level would decide funding—but do so under a legislatively determined rule of equity among school districts. They would also determine the overall organization of the school systems—for instance deciding whether to district by towns or by counties, or otherwise.
Given a curriculum decided by others, the politicians would be empowered to establish testing standards to measure school performance. The curriculum standards would limit the subject matter tested for. Politicians would get no other say in curriculum questions.
Local administrative oversight of each school system would continue to be under the direction of elected or appointed school committees, as before. Hiring decisions would be the responsibility of principals reporting to the school superintendent.
I offer that system as a method to put curriculum responsibilities closest to those most affected by them, and to give administrative powers to those best equipped to perform them efficiently. I would be interested to hear comments, or read other organizational schemes based on those principles or on other principles.
I am least interested in hearing comments from folks ideologically hostile to public education, or who are aggrieved that schools do not teach their preferred ideologies.
The obsolete, disaffected bigots have been thoroughly lathered.
I do enjoy the poetry of your prose. Even though your understanding of the world is from a different alternate reality.
In today's news on why it really is a "Don't Say Gay" bill, see Texas AG Ken Paxton for what these social conservatives really want. He is accusing the Austin Independent School District of violating Texas state law by having a "Pride Week". The district tweeted Monday, "Every year, to celebrate LGBTQIA+ students, staff & families Austin ISD hosts its own Pride Week, a time to highlight the district’s commitment to creating a safe, supportive, inclusive environment." Paxton claims this violates Texas state law requiring parents' permission for them to be given "human sexuality instruction". (Florida law requires something similar, as students in Biology classes get sent home a letter informing parents about the unit on human sexuality and an opportunity for them to opt their child out of that instruction.)
This isn't about teaching sex. Paxton is claiming that acknowledging that these individuals exist and have equal rights counts as "human sexuality instruction" and "gender ideology" and that parents have a right to veto their children being taught this. This is culture war, pure and simple. They don't want kids in public schools to be told that being gay or transgender is a part of human experience that isn't shameful, because they don't believe that. They believe that it is 'sinful' or 'unnatural' and think it is wrong for a public school to say otherwise.
The government while handling these debates seems to forget that all should be done to preserve the best interests of a child. My daughter graduated from college this year, she won government grant, but the level of her English has much to be desired. At this point in time she attends https://promova.com/tutors/english-tutors-for-adults where I found extracurricular lessons for her.
"Perhaps even more tellingly, the long history of federal subsidization of higher education has resulted in little in the way of federal control over the curricula of private and state universities..."
WRONG!!!
What do you think the issue of accreditation is all about?
You have to be accredited to receive federal funds, and that is where the (increasing) interference with curriculum is coming in.
Teen pregnancy rates (while still far too high) are currently at record lows, so I'm not sure this is correct.
I failed to define my terms properly. Obviously teen pregnancy per se is not a problem at all, it is a success at the game of life.
It is extramarital teen pregnancy, leading to single parenthood, which is the social problem. Back when I went to school, the overwhelming majority of teen pregnancies were within marriage. Now, it is the other way round.
You know that homosexuality isn't something that you "recruit" people into, right? Or are you one of those "homosexuality is a choice" people?