The Volokh Conspiracy
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Perhaps the S. Ct. Will Reconsider the "Actual Malice" Libel Test -- but Not in Palin v. N.Y. Times
[UPDATE 3/11/2022: A new New York state intermediate appellate decision suggests the chance of the U.S. Supreme Court taking Palin is higher than I thought, though I think still very low; see here for details.]
Sarah Palin will doubtless appeal the verdict against her, and will almost certainly lose. Under existing libel law, she could only prevail if she could show so-called "actual malice," which basically means that the Times knew that the statement about her was false (knowing falsehood), or at least published it with a "high degree of awareness of … probable falsity" or "entertain[ing] serious doubts as to the truth of his publication" (reckless disregard of the risk of falsehood). Mere negligence or even gross negligence isn't enough. The jury has resolved against Palin this factual question about the Times editors' mental state, and the Second Circuit Court of Appeals is highly unlikely to overturn such a factual ruling.
In principle, of course, Palin could then petition the Supreme Court, asking it to exercise its discretion to review the case, and perhaps reconsider whether the "actual malice" test really should apply—the Supreme Court could reverse that precedent, even though the Court of Appeals can't. (Technically, the precedent isn't New York Times v. Sullivan, which required the actual malice test for public officials, but follow-on cases, such as Curtis Publishing v. Butts, which extended that to so-called "public figures.")
But it seems to me extremely unlikely that the Court would agree to hear Palin's case, because it arises under New York law—and a recent New York statute adopts the "actual malice" test as a matter of state law, whether or not it applies as a matter of First Amendment law.
Whether the Court overrules some of its First Amendment libel precedents thus wouldn't affect Palin's case, because one way or the other the jury had to be instructed under New York law. (In theory, Palin could have argued that Alaska law applies, since she's a resident of Alaska, even though the case is being litigated in New York; but the plaintiffs expressly declined to make such an argument.) That legal irrelevance of the First Amendment question is basically a dispositive reason for the Court not to exercise its discretion to hear this case.
There is one possible twist: The new New York statute was enacted after the case was filed, so one could argue that it shouldn't be applied in this case. But in late 2020, Judge Rakoff concluded that the statute should be so applied; I doubt that the Second Circuit would revisit that question, because that question is unnecessary to its decision (since the Second Circuit has to apply the "actual malice" test in any event under the First Amendment). And the chances of the Supreme Court agreeing to hear the Palin case when the first step would have to be interpreting a New York statute—and when an interpretation of the statute that affirms Judge Rakoff's would make the meaty First Amendment issue go away—strike me as very low.
Of course, many of the Justices might in any event be reluctant to reconsider important First Amendment precedents in a case that's so politically laden. (Some Justices might not care about that, but I expect some would.) But even apart from this, I just don't see the Palin case as procedurally suitable for that question.
I think it's possible that the Court will indeed reconsider some of those precedents in some case. Justices Thomas and Gorsuch have so suggested recently, and then-Professor Kagan had so suggested back in the early 1990s. A Justice has recently called for a response in one case calling for such reconsideration, Coral Ridge Ministries Media, Inc. v. Southern Poverty Law Center, though the Court has also passed up some opportunities to do this in recent years. But Palin v. New York Times, I predict, won't be the Court's vehicle to do this.
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There is absolutely no way Mr. Volokh believes that there was no "actual malice" in the writers of the NYT -- this is absurd and absolutely must be overturned by SCOTUS.
I happen to agree that there was malice on part of the NYT, to a large degree it is the modis against any conservative.
There is the problem of proving malice which it is unlikely that Palin put forth evidence of malice. Very difficult to get evidence into the record of someones intent. Though there are indications that the Judge barred testimoney that would have shown malice, which may be the only substantive grounds for appeal.
Actual malice has nothing to do with malice.
It's is more about knowledge than intent:
knowledge that it was false or with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not.
It's some really misleading jargon.
Do you really believe that the NYT thought that Mrs. Palin really caused the shooting of Gabby Giffords?
If not, what reason would they have to make such an accusation other than to severally slander her with a blood libel?
Pro Tip: a “blood libel” is a specific antisemitic canard that alleges that Jews kidnap and murder Christian children and use their blood for rituals. It should not be used to refer to any other falsity.
Allege?
Well falsely allege to be more accurate.
LTG: NO!!!!!
The phrase was chosen purposefully and correctly.
Palin was targeted in the same spirit (as are the truckers in Ottawa and the people who defended freedom over irrational Covid restrictions) with rhetoric meant to dehumanize, to "other," to justify the denial of human rights -- even to death.
Never again!
NOPE. You can fuck the fuck right off with comparing Sarah Palin or anti-vaxx truckers to Jewish victims of blood libels in medieval and early modern Europe. Just fuck the fuck right off.
No, FUCK YOU!
It is NOT an accident that Omar/Talib are on YOUR team and D. Duke endorsed them!
FUCK YOU!
I didn’t realize “Don’t make bad analogies to the Holocaust/historic antisemitism” was a “team.” And if it is, I don’t think Omar and Tlaib are on it. David Duke certainly isn’t.
So, you are not a Democrat? On the left side of the spectrum? A Progressive?
David Duke is a racial supremacist -- I KNOW he is right in line with the progressive racial world view!
Your comparison is disgusting and false. You deserve no more notice than anyone's previously given you.
In the same spirit as the fucking Holocaust?
Yeah, maybe don't devalue the Holocaust to play out your petty partisan melodrama.
He didn't say in the same spirit as the Holocaust, he said in the same spirit as the classical blood libel. And yes, it was in exactly the same spirit.
Never again!
Jesus, you suck.
I can't think of a surer way to make never again loose it's meaning.
BWA HA HA HA!!!!!
Orange Hitler was the Hitlerest Hitler since Bushitler!
Until the next Republican wins and they'll take that spot!
Remember when milquetoast Mitt Romney was next in line for "worse than Hitler?"
I do NOT forget! Talk about devaluing the Holocaust!!!!!!
I disagree. "Blood libel" is precisely the correct term to use here. I see no significant difference between blaming the Gifford shooting on Palin and blaming Little Saint Hugh's death on "the Jews".
You have both the facts and the law wrong.
The question is knowing it was false. Thinking it was true or not is different,
And I don’t recall the exact language, but the NYT did not claim Palin was a but for cause of the shooting of Giffords.
"And I don’t recall the exact language..."
" In 2011, when Jared Lee Loughner opened fire in a supermarket parking lot, grievously wounding Representative Gabby Giffords and killing six people, including a 9-year-old girl, the link to political incitement was clear. Before the shooting, Sarah Palin’s political action committee circulated a map of targeted electoral districts that put Ms. Giffords and 19 other Democrats under stylized crosshairs.”
DWB: Mrs. Palin really caused the shooting of Gabby Giffords.
This is not what that says.
Not saying it's true and cool, but don't embellish
From TIP above: "...the link to political incitement was clear..."
The inference is also clear ... what was the phrase of the day?
"Eliminationist rhetoric?"
They tried to blame Palin for the actions of the shooter -- a clear blood libel like blaming Sanders for the House Baseball shooter (or gun manufactures.)
Weirdly, you didn't say linked you said caused.
Almost as though you know one is stronger than the other.
And you're still using blood libel when maybe you shouldn't.
Weirdly, you didn't say linked you said caused.
The NYT accused Palin of causing the (attempted) assassination of Gabby Giffords.
And you're still using blood libel when maybe you shouldn't.
See my comment above -- I stand by the phrase -- it is an accurate description of what the NYT did and what Branch Covidians do when they blame the unmasked/unvaccinated of "killing grandma" and what the Ottawa truckers are being blamed for (so Trudeau can violate their human rights.)
I endeavor to not be hyperbolic...
They didn't say that.
This is why linked and caused are different words.
Defending the indefensible is ... indefensible.
They accused her of attempted murder!
SHAME!!!!!
"Weirdly, you didn't say linked you said caused."
What type of link could they have been referring to, other than a causal link?
Increased the odds. Increased risk. Like how global warming is linked to worse storms, but can't be sure it causes any given one.
There is a lot of middle ground before the but-for cause DWB is insisting on.
Still overstating things, but not the same.
"Increased the odds. Increased risk. Like how global warming is linked to worse storms, but can't be sure it causes any given one."
Huh? You have it backwards.
If somebody were to say that there is a clear link between Hurricane X and global warming, they would be saying that global warming caused Hurricane X.
If you want to say that global warming may or may not have caused Hurricane X, you say there is an unclear link to global warming.
Probabilities are a thing that exist.
Quit pretending linked to and caused by are the same thing. You know they're not. I presume at this point you're just trolling.
Nobody is talking about probabilities.
I'm saying that in this context, the only link that can be inferred is a causal link. You are unable to show another type of link that the NYT could have been referring to, so you are calling me names because you can't demonstrate your claim.
Nobody is talking about probabilities.
That's begging the question. You want all links to be 100% causal. But not all links are 100% causal. That's pretty elementary.
You have a continual problem with this; you're reading into something to get where you want to go, and assuming that's the only way to read it.
Even if you have the most likely reading (you don't, IMO), you're wrong that the only way to read it is link = cause.
"You have a continual problem with this; you're reading into something to get where you want to go, and assuming that's the only way to read it."
You still haven't provided a plausible alternate reading of the paragraph.
Even if they wanted to say that she made the shooting more probable (or in laymen's terms, that she may have caused the shooting), that would mean that there was no clear link between her 'incitement' and the shooting, the opposite of what the times said.
Plenty of nutjobs on the right thought that Hillary killed Vince Foster. It's basically an equivalent accusation, except that no right-wing "paper of record" accidentally printed it.
Are you serious?
The right went nuts over Foster's death. Rep. Dan Burton shot a watermelon to help gin up a conspiracy theory.
The WSJ called for a special prosecutor - on no evidence whatsoever - to investigate the possibility Foster had been murdered.
It was a disgraceful episode, but you think it shows the integrity of the right.
That's ridiculous.
"The right went nuts over Foster's death. Rep. Dan Burton shot a watermelon to help gin up a conspiracy theory.
The WSJ called for a special prosecutor - on no evidence whatsoever - to investigate the possibility Foster had been murdered."
If the NYT had called for a special prosecutor to investigate the possibility that Palin had incited the Giffords shooting, they wouldn't have gotten sued. But they investigated the issue themselves, and found that she did no such thing. Then they couldn't be bothered to check their own reporting before publishing the bullshit theory.
And if AOC had shot a watermelon to try to suggest somehow that Palin incited the Giffords shooting, she wouldn't have gotten sued either.
But none of your examples rise to the level of what the NYT actually did, which was to publish the bullshit theory as fact. So thanks for proving my point.
You're whattabouting again. Sometimes even via hypotheticals!
Stick to your thesis - you said the right wing media was comparatively restrained about the Vince Foster was murdered by the Clintons conspiracy.
Bernard pointed out this is manifestly untrue.
"You're whattabouting again. Sometimes even via hypotheticals!"
You're misreading things that aren't hard to understand again.
Bernard attempted to claim that right wing media was not comparatively restrained about the Vince Foster was murdered by the Clintons conspiracy by pointing out examples of right wing conduct that were... restrained compared to what the NYT did, which was to publish actual bullshit.
Thanks for playing though.
...So your current thesis is tat the right wing media published no actual bullshit about Hillary killing Vince Foster.
"So your current thesis is tat the right wing media published no actual bullshit about Hillary killing Vince Foster."
My current thesis is that mainstream right wing media never published a claim that Hillary Clinton murdered Vince Foster.
The NYT, OTOH did publish a claim that Palin incited the Giffords shooting.
This isn't hard to understand, you just don't want to understand it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkansas_Project
And it's not "basically" an equivalent accusation at all. "Palin's ad inspired Loughner to shoot Giffords" — while false — is not remotely similar to, let alone equivalent to, "Hillary killed Vince Foster."
Who are you quoting, and why did you feel the need to say, "inspired", instead of "incited"? It's a very different claim, though maybe remotely similar.
And it's similar in the sense that it's a fringe theory only believed by a few nutjobs. The fact that it made it into print in the NYT is... telling.
It indicates that there were a few people involved with the story who thought it was true several years later, to the point that nobody bothered to check.
I doubt that anybody at, say, the WSJ thinks Hillary murdered Vince Foster to the point where they would just pound it into some copy and not check it. Can you imagine?
I doubt that anybody at, say, the WSJ thinks Hillary murdered Vince Foster to the point where they would just pound it into some copy and not check it. Can you imagine?
Are you fucking joking?
Revelations about the handling of Mr. Foster's office papers, remember, is what brought Whitewater to a boil. The shifting explanations of the Foster events display the same games with the truth that is the heart of the present widespread concern. Until the Foster death is seriously studied, a Banquo's ghost will stalk not only the independent investigation but the next three years of the Clinton Administration.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB850701448144661000
Still no examples of them publishing the claim as fact, I see.
No columns in the WSJ on political violence where they casually draw upon Hillary murdering Vince Foster as an example?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1993/07/29/the-journal-and-vincent-foster/78a226d3-0152-4211-99e3-645921c27973/
In "A Washington Death" (July 22), the Journal called for an independent "special counsel" -- exactly the institution it had howled against so often during the Reagan-Bush years -- to investigate Foster's demise. And then this: "We had our disagreements with Mr. Foster during his short term in Washington, but we do not think that in death he deserves to disappear into a cloud of mystery that we are somehow ordained never to understand... . If he was driven to take his life by purely personal despair, a serious investigation should share this conclusion so that he can be appropriately mourned."
Yeah, the WSJ was a piece of shit about Vince Foster.
If you say so, but by actually publishing the claim as fact, the NYT was shittier. That's the whole point.
And the NYT didn't say Palin caused Gifford's shooting.
By your own dumbass new goalposts, your comparison is wrong.
Maybe New York Times v. Sullivan let the WSJ get away with such accusations?
Lol. Same goalposts.
The NYT said falsely that Palin published an ad with lawmakers under crosshairs, and that the ad incited the Giffords shooting. You can quibble over whether or not that means that she caused the shooting (it does), but you can't hide from the fact that they published a batshit-crazy Vince-Foster-level theory that had been debunked years prior.
And then they had to retract when people were like, "Uh, guys, you know this isn't true, right?"
But wait - what about when the Whigs accused Andrew Jackson of murder? You didn't criticize *that* at the time!
Your goalposts are beyond what the NYT did. As DMN pointed out, Palin's ad inspired Loughner to shoot Giffords — while false — is not remotely similar to, let alone equivalent to, "Hillary killed Vince Foster."
What other link than inspiration do you think was implied?
"What other link than inspiration do you think was implied?"
Huh? Nothing was implied. The NYT said expressly that there was a link to incitement. But there was no incitement, and no link to the material that the NYT falsely claimed was incitement. The theory was a crazy leftist theory.
LOL, a link to incitement is where your goalposts are now.....and you're saying 'well, the WSJ didn't SAY the Clintons killed Foster!'
You're acting like a clown.
"LOL, a link to incitement is where your goalposts are now..."
That's what the whole fucking claim was! I didn't write that, the NYT did.
Gabby Giffords gets shot, and the left immediately and without evidence accuses Palin of being responsible:
"Sarah Palin and the rabid Republican right must be feeling really satisfied about now, since their threats of violence as a solution have now found fertile ground in the probably disturbed mind of a young man, Jared Lee Loughner. Their campaign is showing success."
It's nuts, and debunked, but somehow gets published in the Times years later?
Yes, I think the WSJ publishing the claim that Hillary killed Vince Foster is a good analogy.
Yes, malice in legalese is not malice in the dictionary. It means knowledge, not hate or wanting to hurt the person. Legalese is rent seeking garbage. The NY Times hated Palin. It should have paid for the damage they did on purpose.
The idiot Supreme Court should replace NY Times standard with the Journalism Code of Ethics standard. Failure to comply with its rules should result in liability for any damage.
https://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp
I like this rule: – Diligently seek subjects of news coverage to allow them to respond to criticism or allegations of wrongdoing.
All we get is the subject did not respond to our email at the time of publication. That is not an excuse.
As I said above, proving malice is a difficult hurdle.
My impression of the Mann v Simberg & Mann v Steyn was both Simberg and Steyn fully intented actual malice to Mann and Penn.
However, with the safety that Simberg's and Steyn statements were factually true, with a little spice added to the factually accurate statements
Hi Joe. I'm not clear on what you mean by "intended actual malice."
Professor Volokh isn't arguing what he believes, but what the courts have to pretend to believe.
"Before we go any further, I want to say something to you: You know and I know that we can't tell you what to print, or what not to. We *hope* the press will act responsibly. But when you *don't,* there ain't a lot we can do about it."
I suppose Palin could argue the retroactivity issue and the Second Circuit could certify the question to the New York Court of Appeals. If there’s a definitive answer that it’s not retroactive under state law then the actual malice question would be easier for SCOTUS to take up.
NYT v. Sullivan was decided because the liberal Warren Ct was not about to let racist Alabama crackers sue the New York Times.
Good policy maybe at the time but horrible law.
Now that almost 60 years has passed and many things have changed, no need to give a special status to the media. A license to lie.
[I know that technically any person, not just the NYT etc., benefits but lets face facts, except in the tiniest number of cases, no one is wasting their time and money suing some blog or twitter user for libel. Many states have anti-slapp laws as well.]
Where do you get this "license to lie" nonsense?
If you can prove actual lying (knowledge that some assertion was false) you have a case if the assertion damaged your reputation.
Can't prove it? Well, then, your case is without merit. Just like Palin's was.
Sullivan and the cases that followed that extended the actual malice standard to all public figures make for pretty good law, despite call from partisans on both the left and right for limitations on free speech.
I don't know if you practice law, but in the real world, it is very easy to lie while appearing to be a bumbling idiot. And since SCOTUS has decided that the latter is not liable for defamation, at least for a public figure, that gives such a person a free pass from defamation liability.
I once had a similar issue with an adversary counsel. They brought a motion against our client and firm for fees, but controlling authority said they were not entitled to it. We had to respond, and made a motion for sanctions. Under 28 USC 1927, which has been interpreted to require bad faith.
Judge denies it, and writes that there is an "alternative possible explanation," namely that the lawyers are just grossly incompetent and missed the controlling authority that says there motion was bunkum. So we had to spend time writing an opposition for nothing.
After that, we used the acronym for "alternative possible explanation," or APE, to describe stupid counsel.
So, do you think the Sullivan rule encourages more careful, or less careful, journalism?
Bob, I agree with your point about the reason for Times v. Sullivan. The decision came down while I was in law school, and having spent a year studying torts I wasn't crazy about the notion of radically changing the rules for a major class of torts. But the Profs, and all enlightened students, (almost) persuaded me that this ruling was necessary to keep the civil rights train on the tracks (and I DID and DO support civil rights). But what public interest is served by privileging the "US Paper of Record" to make false accusations about a political commenter? Holy smokes, the "Palin targeted Gifford" argument was refuted ages ago! If they can get that issue wrong, don't pay off any Super Bowl bets until you read another paper. Maybe two other papers.
"If they can get that issue wrong, don't pay off any Super Bowl bets until you read another paper. Maybe two other papers."
Well said. Wish I had said that. Actually, I did, in another post. (Though you said it better.)
Watching Trump fans argue for "loosening up" defamation standards is hilarious.
How do you figure Donald Trump (and Trump Election Litigation: Elite Strike Force, and various Trump supporters) would fare -- with respect to Dominion Voting Systems, the allegations concerning elections officials, the 'Hillary is a criminal' years, various QAnon stupidities, the sexual assault (and 'I did not sexual assault') claims, and myriad other claims -- if judged by the standard clingers want to impose on The New York Times?
If they know it's false, none. But if they don't know it's false, then we don't want their speech to be overly chilled by the fear of liability, because it might be true.
You have established a lonely position on Clinger Island, Mr. Nieporent. Most of these resentful, disaffected right-wingers care far more about sticking it to The New York Times than they do about any high-minded approach to chilling effect on speech.
That is the theory of NY Times v. Sullivan. But why does actual malice -- which means either you know it is false, or have serious doubts about it -- have to be the standard.
Suppose gross negligence were the standard. How much speech would be "chilled?" And how valuable would that speech be? Should not be hard for the press to show that it acted at least with some minimal care, enough not to be grossly negligent.
A (very) rough differentiation between negligence and gross negligence is, if a school zone has a 25 mph speed limit, and you drive 40 mph, that is negligence. If you drive 85 mph, that is grossly negligent. Why should we let off a newspaper, or other press outlet, that acts the equivalent of one who drives 85 mph in a school zone? If that behavior is chilled, I say, good, let it be chilled.
I would be fine with a gross negligence standard rather than the actual malice standard of Sullivan¹… if combined with a robust anti-SLAPP law to ensure that rich people can't engage in lawfare against media outlets they dislike. *cough*PeterThiel*cough*.
¹Actually, Sullivan arguably described something like gross negligence. It's the gloss put on that by later cases that made actual malice nearly insurmountable.
David, you say that if the Times "don't know it's false, then we don't want their speech to be overly chilled by the fear of liability, because it might be true." Why should we empower a "news" medium to publish false information that "might" be true? If I write something about you that "might be true" but in fact is false and defamatory, you can sue me. Why treat me, an amateur, worse than a professional institution that purports to report "news"?
Huh? Whether you write it or the NYT writes it, the treatment is the same. The difference in treatment turns on the identity of the subject of the speech, not the identity of the speaker. If you or the NYT say it about me, I can prevail relatively easily. If you or the NYT say it about Joe Biden, he can prevail only with great difficulty.
Because we do not want to chill speech about matters of public concern. If you can't talk about a politician's potential wrongdoing without ironclad proof, politicians will get away with a lot.
As opposed to how much politicians get away with under the current system, where poorly-sourced smears and innuendo have become so commonplace that most persuadable people just tune them out? Maybe a bit higher signal/noise ratio would actually be helpful.
But this gets to BoredLawyer’s response about malice perhaps being the wrong standard.
The entire reason they included Sarah Palin’s name in this article was to draw a parallel and soften the blow for the NYT’s largely liberal audience that yes, there are murderous lunatics on the Left as well, and one of them targeted a Republican congressman over his hatred of Republicans. The parallel they were attempting to draw was completely extraneous, to say nothing of the fact that it was false.
Well, sometimes journalists things wrong. Eh, it happens. Apologize for mistake and move on. But what if the “error” was falsely asserting someone or their brand incited another mass shooting? And what if you offer the blandest correction you can and leave the article with their name intact?
NYT v. Sullivan was decided because the liberal Warren Ct was not about to let racist Alabama crackers sue the New York Times
There was no greater advocate against the racist Alabama cracker's position than the racist Alabama crackers, stating their position.
I suspect that if liberals then (and progressives now) actually considered blacks equal they would have been less paternalistic and we'd be a whole hell of a lot freer today.
I think that we just need to lower the evidentiary bar on the actual malice standard to not require a recorded villainous monologue.
A statement that no one could reasonably believe should be sufficient evidence of actual malice.
No rational person could believe that Palin was responsible for these killings. They had to have known this during publishing. Accusing someone of murder is libel per-se.
They did not accuse her of murder.
It's entirely possible that there was no venue anywhere, and no jury panel, that could have produced a plaintiff's verdict in this case.
But in my humble opinion, the fate of the case was foredoomed by Palin's lawyers' choice to file it in federal court in the Southern District of New York. Had I been her lawyer, I would have filed in state court in Wasilla, and I'd have included as a non-diverse co-defendant the NYT's distributor in Alaska.
For the life of me, I can't think of a strategic or tactical advantage that could reasonably have been expected to be found in her lawyers' choice among permissible venues, unless maybe one thinks her chances might have been better in the Second Circuit than in the Alaska Supreme Court.
I'm curious what Prof. Volohk or others who follow defamation law closely might think, with the benefit of hindsight, about her lawyers' venue choice and its significance, if any, to both the jury verdict and the (wildly inappropriately-timed!) ruling on the NYT's motion for directed verdict.
Would Alaska have personal jurisdiction over the NYT? The law around that is really in flux and constantly changing and confused
Even if you could establish PJ up there, which (long arm statute aside) I think you could under Keaton v Hustler, I think there would be some major venue issues with Alaska.
Would a state court in Alaska not be hospitable toward Clinger Barbie with respect to venue (or anything else)?
I think there likely would be personal jd. under Caldor v. Jones, as well.
As for venue, at least in federal court, for a corporation pj = proper venue.
And the NYT, which has competent lawyers, would've successfully argued fraudulent joinder.
Maybe. No one in Alaska distributed the Times edition that contained the alleged defamation? Not clear to me that her lawyers could not have found a proper defendant there.
And even so, federal court in Alaska would have been a better bet for her.
No, sir. A local distributor who republishes a defamatory statement is a joint tortfeasor, and an entirely proper defendant.
Sorry, but you're mixing terminology. "Republish" and "distribute" are different concepts in defamation law. See, e.g., the Restatement (Second) of Torts § 581(1) (“one who only delivers or transmits matter published by a third person is subject to liability if, but only if, he knows or has reason to know of its defamatory character”). (Emphasis added.)
I used to have a paper route. I'd hate to be held legally responsible for what was in the papers I delivered.
Yes, which is commonly alleged, and typically survives long enough for the removal deadline to expire. Fraudulent joinder is not easy to prove, and it can't be just sorta kinda presumed. You're presuming.
The Times need not prove fraudulent joinder in the state court before the removal deadline. They file a notice of removal, and it's removed. Then Palin asks for remand on the ground that the federal court lacks SMJ because there's not complete diversity, and the NYT alleges fraudulent joinder and litigates it there.
And of course there are fact-specific situations in which it's difficult to resolve — but this wouldn't be one of them. What's Palin going to allege, that the distributor actually authored the editorial?
By the by, I thought of a proposal to deal with cases like these. Often, the real issue in a defamation case is not damages, but vindication. So suppose a state passed a statute as follows:
(1) If a person claims she was defamed, even a public figure, she can demand that the defamer issue an apology and correction, in the same place and manner the defamation was issued. (meaning, same page of the paper, with equal prominence.)
(2) If the paper prints the apology and correction, it has full immunity from suit.
(3) If it refuses, and then defamation is proven at trial, then there is no need to show actual malice (perhaps negligence or strict liability, which was the common law rule.)
This would have to pass SCOTUS muster under Sullivan, of course. Apart from that, any thoughts? Just a preliminary idea, obviously subject to refinement.
How many people would Donald Trump be required to hire to handle requests for apologies?
How many people would Donald Trump need to hire to handle claims from the people he stiffed after hiring them to handle requests for apologies?
Your contribution is noted. Par for the course. Nothing of substance to say, engage in political attacks. As though I care what Donald Trump would do or not do.
One initial thought is if there's no cost for frivolous demands for apology/correction, reflexive, automatic demands would quickly become the norm. At that point, a rational paper would only print stuff it was willing to stand by. So doesn't this effectively gut Sullivan?
Why wouldn't a rational scandal sheet print horsewallop accompanied by a retraction, without waiting for the demand?
Their audience would understand that the retraction is boilerplate "for the lawyers", and the sheet would have no constraints at all on the lies it could publish.
Because if you don't get an apology and sue, you still have to prove your case, i.e., that it is a fact and that it is false.
And some showing of harm as well, I would presume. But that's the same standard as for private plaintiffs today and everyone pre-Sullivan, right? The extra protection for statements about public figures is effectively gone. Not debating whether that's a good/bad thing, but it does seem like an inevitable result.
Alex Jones (I think) was forced to apologize by a Texas law limiting recovery for defamation if a retraction was issued on demand.
Some damages may be irreparable, even though they are customarily reduced to dollars. If a newspaper prints "Edwards found in bed with live boy AND dead girl" on the day before the election, a retraction the day after is not worth much. It is possible that late-breaking true news cost Hillary Clinton the 2016 election because it came out at just the wrong time.
I think there are often rules like this about avoiding *punitive* damages, but even with an "oops, never mind, we goofed," the plaintiff could still pursue actual damages.
I'm personally skeptical about letting them off the hook *entirely* for publishing an "oops," but...
Practically speaking, *if* the Supreme Court is uncomfortable with Sullivan and wants a face-saving way to walk back some of that decision, maybe an idea like yours might be just they thing they'd be looking for.
(reply to Bored Lawyer)
Of course, Palin suffered no damages, which was another infirmity of her suit.
Maybe the anguish is what caused her to be such a lousy parent?
Because she has a grandchild born out of wedlock?
Get back to the 21st century, Cotton Mather.
Care to examine the relevant college degree-to-arrest ratio? The unplanned pregnancy-to-gainful employment ratio? The busted family-to-hypocritical platitude ratio?
Add the 'abstinence advocate' grifting, the 'stand for Jesus and family values' hypocrisy, and the overt bigotry, and Clinger Barbie has much reason to be modest with respect to her parenting record.
You are welcome to find her just dreamy, Cal Cetin.
IIRC, there are certain kinds of defamation for which hurt feelings are damages. Calling someone an instigator of murder is pretty harsh, I think most normal people would be offended by that.
I think most normal people would be offended by that.
Ok, but how is that relevant to Palin?
It is pretty clear that at some point in the future the Supreme Court will rule that any criticism of Republicans is libel, while anything the right wing says about Democrats, particularly Fox News, is protected speech. Isn't that the way it is supposed to work?
As for the Palin case, once more we have evidence that while the extremists can dish out virulent accusations against everyone, when it comes to any attack on them they are the whiney little babies we all think they are.
Thank you for your contribution. It was worth every penny we paid for it.
It is a helluva thing to see the small government side advocating for more government intrusion into everyday life.
Plenty of countries have broader defamation laws than we do. In fact, there's a fair take that we're special.
Dunno if we should be. Been thinking about political lying these days, and that absolutely has press implications as well.
Anyone who has been around this site for any length of time (check) thinks in their heart of hearts that mr. finkel is on the "small government side" (check) needs a heart transplant, stat.
Put differently: You got trolled, troll.
You're the one that wants government regulation on private businesses where it currently does not exist.
This was Life of Brian's only post in this thread.
I mean, he can absolutely say he's in favor of keeping Sullivan, but he seems to be taking the side of the folks who are not happy with the Sullivan status quo.
Indeed. INAL, but as a free speech absolutist I don't know exactly where to draw the line.
For example: Company A promises Product X will never break. I come to them with X clearly broken. They say " Sorry, free speech!" Yeah ... no. The court should punish them for fraud or breach of contract, not their speech.
Blaming Remington for the school shooter, or Sanders for the baseball shooter or Palin for the Arizona shooter seems beyond "free speech."
Am I wrong?
That'll shalt not bear false witness tells me no.
You are then, it seems, not a free speech absolutist.
Why yes, yes I am -- and the fact that you cannot see the difference in punishing speech (I disagree with what you say and I will now punish you) and bearing false witness (we had a contract and you broke it) says much.
There is a reason lawyers are a hated class...
They are both speech. You want to sanction some speech that you think is bad.
You are not a free speech absolutist.
I don't know who you are responding to, but I fail to see what this has to do with government regulation. Sullivan is a limitation on a private cause of action, defamation. SCOTUS tilted the playing field heavily in favor of one set of litigants against another. What that has to do with small govt., I don't know.
Who enforces private causes of action?
Hint: It's the government.
So you think that small govt. advocates favor abolition of all private causes of action? That enforcing contracts, for example, is a "big government" position?
Silly season seems to be upon us.
Saying government may not do "X" is the same as saying government cannot do ANYTHING!
It is known...
Small government generally means favoring broad rights, which restrain government.
But the moment you scent a spite suit, you're willing to advocate for narrowing whatever currently broad rights there are to get at it.
It shows where your principles truly lie.
Yawn. Have you been taking lessons from the Rev?
Applying "rights" against a private party was already a huge innovation. For 150 years, defamation law and the First Amendment lived comfortably together. You could toss NY Times v. Sullivan and still maintain vigorous First Amendment protections against the government or the states.
You certainly could do so if the standard were changed to gross negligence, as I indicate above.
Sure - make as many exceptions to what counts as speech for 1A purposes as you want. They could all be legal.
But in terms of principles, each exception narrows the area of protection from government-enforced action.
Turn yourself in pretzels to justify it - and maybe you're right! But the arguments you're making will definitionally be anti-libertarian; you are arguing for a change to constrain rights and for an expansion of government action onto private speech.
I'm not sure that's wrong these days. But it's *definitively* not the small government thing to do.
Narrowing constitutional rights means expanding government's reach.
There is NO greater violator of human rights than government --it is not even close
I guess you prefer your life nasty, brutish, and short, eh?
Give me liberty or give me death.
"Nasty, brutish, and short..."
That was life under GOVERNMENT serfdom, wasn't it?????
A long life as a slave ... is slavery.
The pure state of nature, or "the natural condition of mankind", was described by the 17th century English philosopher Thomas Hobbes in Leviathan and his earlier work De Cive.
Hobbes argued that natural inequalities between humans are not so great as to give anyone clear superiority; and thus all must live in constant fear of loss or violence; so that "during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man".
In this state, every person has a natural right to do anything one thinks necessary for preserving one's own life, and life is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" (Leviathan, Chapters XIII–XIV).
I don't think you've thought this 'government does all the bad things' out. Without government to restrain malefactors, or to coordinate collective projects like towns and damns and the like, you would certainly not be comfortably posting nonsense from the Internet.
Where to draw the line of how big government should be is another question, but government as the greatest violator of human rights ignores a lot of fundamental political philosophy.
The jury found for the defendant. So what exactly is there to appeal? Not that this will stop the appeal, after all why have juries when you have political hacks (not my words) on the Supreme Court ready to do the bidding of their Republican masters.
And by the way, if stupidity is considered malice or libel, would not Sarah Palin be defending in court for the rest of her life?
Stupidity runs deep in all groups...even the NYC Ivy League "intellectuals who run the NYT. (Holodomor apologists, cheering the New Orleans lynching of Italians). The NYT is a communist rag and should be considered an enemy of liberty.
The New York Times is a commie rag.
Titus PUllo is a defeated, bigoted, antisocial, right-wing culture war casualty.
The Times wins.
Again.
Always.
How many millions died in the Ukraine? Did the Times not cheer for the lynching? Animal farm must not be your book of choice I suppose. Iraq WMD lies? Oh where to stop with the Times...
Whether Sullivan ought to be the standard, one assumes. (It is, of course, but SCOTUS could change that.)
First why isn't the case being heard in Alaska where she lives? I tend to think the outcome would be different.
Second, can we say she got a fair trial? We don't know the judge's bias. We know there are very liberal judges who discriminate against certain groups (evangelicals, "white non ivy league", conservatives, European Americans (Irish, Italian) and so on. This case should have been heard in Alaska by a judge who shares the same religious/political views. Anything else is injustice.
...So in any defamation case, the plaintiff should get a judge of their religion and politics?
Is this a great legal blog, or what?
(It is the best these clingers can manage, which is what counts.)
Because she chose to file the suit in New York.
No, that sounds terrible.
NYT probably doesn't have enough of a presence in Alaska to be subject to jurisdiction there.
There is one possible twist: The new New York statute was enacted after the case was filed, so one could argue that it shouldn't be applied in this case. But in late 2020, Judge Rakoff concluded that the statute should be so applied
Perhaps it's Calder v Bull that SCOTUS needs to take another look at, rather than NYT v Sullivan.
I can think of some fairly juicy retrospective tax laws that might make SCOTUS sit up and pay attention.
Any plaintiff with a national reputation as a doofus has an uphill climb in a defamation case.
"(Technically, the precedent isn't New York Times v. Sullivan, which required the actual malice test for public officials, but follow-on cases, such as Curtis Publishing v. Butts, which extended that to so-called 'public figures.')"
Huh-huh, you said "butts," huh-huh, huh.
Oh, well, meant as a stand-alone comment, but this way it's even sillier.
Palin "won" by getting this to trial and exposing the corporate so-called "media" for what they really are - the propaganda arm of the DNC. Anyone who listened to or read the testimony during the trial along with associated discovery material can't honestly hold the fig leaf covering up the naked truth of these corporations any longer.
Just to be clear: Jimmy the Dane neither listened to nor read the testimony during the trial, let alone "associated discovery material."
Do you know how editorials work? The problem with the Times piece is that it was false, not that it was biased.
(To avoid any possible confusion, not that there should be any, that was a reply to Jimmy, not to DMN.)
I wonder who is financing Ms. Palin's expenses in this litigation. I doubt seriously that she is paying out of her own pocket.
"...and a recent New York statute adopts the "actual malice" test as a matter of state law..."
So why is this not ex post facto?
It is ex post facto. But the Supreme Court held long ago that the Ex Post Facto clause of the Constitution is limited to retroactive criminal statutes. Retroactive civil statutes are outside the Constitutional protection.
Having kept somewhat abreast of the trial, I thought it was fascinating. It's unfortunate that more people didn't bother seeing what the testimony showed.
Hearing how the sausage (in this case, the NY Time unsigned op-eds, which are the least-essential part of the paper) gets made was illuminating. But while it wasn't pretty, it made me sympathetic to the people at the Times- people who were human, people who can screw up on a deadline ... but more importantly, people who actually cared that they screwed up and tried to correct it quickly.
This was a really poor vehicle for a winning defamation case under the current law (which is why the Judge already announced the result prior to the return of the jury), and would make a terrible vehicle for overturning NY Times v. Sullivan (which I also think is a bad idea).
Finally, and as an aside- whether you are for, or against, Sullivan, try and remember that it's not about protecting the powerful press. The NY Times will end up being fine. It's about whether we protect powerful people (aka, public figures). The voices that get silenced, for the most part, won't be powerful media companies with legions of attorneys. They will be regular people spouting off about the City Manager, or Rando Blogger talking about a celebrity.
You don't have to agree with Sullivan- but do make sure you're paying attention to who it will impact. The drive to re-shape it isn't about taking down the liberal media; it's about protecting the powerful and the monied.
"But while it wasn't pretty, it made me sympathetic to the people at the Times- people who were human, people who can screw up on a deadline"
I am not terribly sympathetic. As in medicine, the first rule of journalism should be, first do no harm. If you cannot make a deadline without risking falsesly trashing someone, then screw your deadline.
Professor Colokh is probably right on this. There are plenty of cases where state legislatures are challenging existing Supreme Court precedents, and a legislature that finds this issue important would do so.
That said, this type of procedural argument is typically used by people who like the status quo and fear the change that might occur if the Court should get to the merits.
?
If dueling is legalized:
1: “I challenge you to duel”
2: “Pass”
1: “Well you are without honor”
2: “Cool”
1: “You may choose a substitute to duel by proxy!”
2: “No”
1: (impotent rage)
2: “K.”
My champion is The Mountain.
Yeah, dueling only works in fantasy land where perceived honor is more important than truth.
A fantasy land called the turn of the century, but yeah, nowadays it seems more like folks want some sanctioned violence.
I’d say it only matters in societies that don’t value their lives or the people they care for as much as perceived honor. Today, only unfeeling idiots would risk dying and leaving their friends and families behind to remedy a perceived slight.
The turn of the century was 22 years ago.
Nerts. Nerts, I say!
That's why the oath of office in Kentucky still has this:
"... I do further solemnly swear (or affirm) that since the adoption of the present Constitution, I, being a citizen of this State, have not fought a duel with deadly weapons within this State nor out of it, nor have I sent or accepted a challenge to fight a duel with deadly weapons, nor have I acted as second in carrying a challenge, nor aided or assisted any person thus offending..."
https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/Law/Constitution/Constitution/ViewConstitution?rsn=263
https://foxlexington.com/news/spirit-of-bluegrass/kentuckys-odd-oath-of-office/