The Volokh Conspiracy
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It's Blacklisting All the Way Down
[UPDATE: See Prof. Hamburger's response below.]
Prof. Philip Hamburger (Columbia) has an op-ed at the Wall Street Journal arguing, among other things,
What should be done about law-school deans and others in legal institutions who censor, cancel, blacklist, refuse to hire, fire, "investigate" and otherwise threaten others for their opinions? A partial answer lies in reminding them that their misconduct may disqualify them from ever sitting on the bench….
If a dean, committee member, law-review editor, bar-association leader, or other person in authority cancels, blacklists, excludes, threatens or otherwise disadvantages scholars, students, lawyers or their work on the basis of their opinions, can he be trusted as a judge to listen with an open mind to conflicting legal positions? If someone can't tolerate both sides, how can he be trusted to do justice impartially? …
The position of a judge is unlike any other job. Judges enjoy vast authority over their fellow Americans, and the primary defense against abuse of this authority is their internal commitment to impartiality—their dedication to hearing both sides with an open mind and deciding without prejudice. This is a constitutional requirement of judicial office and due process.
So it's not too much to consider intolerance or cowardice disqualifying. Those who have shown themselves to be intolerant of difference or too fearful to stand up for what is right have no business sitting on the bench.
I appreciate Prof. Hamburger's concern about the disease, but I'm not on board with the cure.
Let's step back and try to get a sense of perspective about all this: A 23-year-old law review editor does something "intolerant," and this makes him unfit, perhaps thirty years later, to serve on the bench? Really?
Could it be that half a lifetime in the practice of law might change a person (whether for the better or for worse)? Why should we think that having exercised poor judgment—nothing criminal or even tortious or violative of the rules of ethics, but just weakness, folly, intolerance, or self-righteousness—just a few years into adulthood should weigh so heavily when we evaluate an accomplished professional? I wouldn't appoint people to judgeships because of something great they did when they were 23. I wouldn't blackball them because of something intolerant they did.
Beyond that, consider how categorical the proposal is in scope as well as in time: "If a dean, committee member, law-review editor, bar-association leader, or other person in authority cancels, blacklists, excludes, threatens or otherwise disadvantages scholars, students, lawyers or their work on the basis of their opinions, …." Well, yes, if a dean had fired a professor for his speech, and that violated the First Amendment (in a public university) or a state statute (which may apply even to private universities) or academic freedom principles, it's legitimate to count that against the dean in various contexts.
On the other hand, hiring decisions are inevitably based on the content of a candidate's scholarship, and sometimes even on the candidate's opinions. (Some opinions, for instance, may be viewed as reflecting poor reasoning.) If a committee member "excludes" a candidate because the member thinks the candidate's opinions about legal history are just historical nonsense, that might be reasonable, or might be intolerant, or might be some mix of the two—but I doubt it tells us much about whether the committee member would make a good judge.
On top of that, while some institutions ought to be tolerant of a vast range of ideological beliefs, not all should be. Some law reviews are deliberately ideologically focused, and are known to be that, just as some serious magazines are deliberately ideologically focused. It's hardly disqualifying from a judgeship, I think, for a student to be an editor of such a journal, and to "disadvantage[]" certain authors' "work" because of the authors' "opinions" embodied in that work.
The article likewise faults "law firms [from] discourag[ing] associates, even partners, from taking pro bono cases for dissenting individuals," and I think that's often a reasonable criticism, especially if the law firm promotes itself as a big tent. On the other hand, some firms are deliberately highly ideological; I wouldn't expect an overtly pro-labor-union law firm, for instance, to approve many pro bono cases supporting anti-labor advocates, or vice versa. Yet I don't think that former managing partners of such law firms, whether on the Left, on the Right, or anywhere else should be disqualified from judgeships.
To be sure, implementing such a categorical rule—if it could indeed be consistently implemented—might help deter some bad behavior (as well as some unobjectionable behavior). But so what? Speeding is bad behavior, but I wouldn't endorse disqualifying from a judgeship anyone who had ever gotten speeding tickets while in law school, even if I thought that it might add an extra dollop of deterrent.
Now if some Presidents or Senators—or their analogs in various state judicial appointment systems—wanted to consider whether such recent actions by a dean, professor, or lawyer reflect on the person's judicial temperament, that would be fine. (I wouldn't consider such actions by a law student, just because those actions were almost certainly at too different a time in the candidate's professional life.) But those actions should be considered alongside all the other features of the prospective judge's career, rather than as some sort of categorical litmus tests.
And we should also recognize that judges are expected to exercise an impartiality of a sort that lawyers and professors generally need not. I take it that it's OK for a professor to prefer applicants with a higher GPA or who had gone to a more prestigious law school, even though a judge should presumably not consider that in deciding what witness to credit or what sentence to hand down. Likewise, I take it that it's OK for lawyers to choose their own clients (pro bono or otherwise) based on the clients' ideology or professional role (e.g., employee, employer, tenant, landlord, etc.), without making it impossible for us to "trust[]" the lawyers "to do justice impartially" once the lawyers are appointed to the bench.
In any event, it seems to me a mistake to create overbroad, perpetual, and categorical disqualifying rules—for judicial appointments or for most other things—especially when those rules turn on behavior that is generally perfectly lawful even if, in our view, insufficiently tolerant. We need fewer blacklist threats these days, I think, rather than more.
UPDATE: Prof. Hamburger graciously passed along this response, which I'm delighted to post:
My thanks to Eugene for his thoughtful response to my Wall Street Journal piece arguing that intolerance is disqualifying for judicial candidates. As at other times when I disagree with Eugene, I am half persuaded he is right. Certainly, he has a good point that the disgrace of blacklisting should not induce counter blacklisting. But that's not what I was proposing.
Imagine that in reaction to the current academic exclusion of conservatives and libertarians, I had proposed excluding liberals and progressives from judicial positions. That would be blacklisting. In contrast, my argument does not take aim at anyone for their views. It merely points out that many in the legal community have shown themselves to be intolerant or cowardly in ways that are incompatible with the constitutional duty of a judge, let alone the due process of law. So I think Eugene's critique of "blacklisting all the way down" is misplaced. That's not what this is about.
But Eugene surely is making a very important point where he worries about categorical barriers to judicial office. People do change. Most don't change sufficiently, but some do. I therefore heartily agree that there shouldn't be a categorical rule against the intolerant and welcome that as a somewhat friendly amendment.
He also is right that most hiring or editorial decisions turn on complex evaluations of scholarship—questions that don't lend themselves to being characterized as tolerant or intolerant. My point, however, was that intolerance is disqualifying. Perhaps I could have been clearer about what I meant by this. Lest there be any doubt—and I appreciate Eugene's spurring me to be more explicit—my essay's concern is with express or otherwise manifest intellectual prejudice, not with trying to discern whether quotidian scholarly evaluations are ideological.
Eugene also makes a good point that students are young. So, perhaps, one should be particularly open to their renunciations of early intolerance. But most law review editors are in their mid-twenties. At that age, they should be able to understand the danger of blacklisting conservative or libertarian students or blockading conservative, originalist, and 'anti-administrative' articles. This is utterly intolerant, and a student at any law school should be able to understand why it is profoundly wrong.
If the question were merely about treating such students justly, their intolerance would be less significant. At stake, however, is justice for all the litigants who might come before them and for all the Americans who might have to live under their interpretations and precedents. Once the question of justice is understood with this breadth, it becomes necessary to worry about protecting Americans from injustice. So there is a tension between the desire to forget and forgive and the need to remember and protect.
Ultimately, the point is not is not about my views or Eugene's, but about the role of judges. To be a judge and to avoid denying the due process of law, an individual sitting on the bench must be willing to hear both sides in a case. In listening, she must keep an open mind. And ultimately she must be determined to reach a judgment devoid of prejudice—a judgment that rises above her precommitments.
So, when a dean, professor, student, or partner acts with manifest intolerance, it is difficult to avoid having doubts about her qualification to be a judge. The depth of those doubts will depend on the circumstances, and it will not always be clear where such doubts should lead. But such doubts are inevitable and constitutionally desirable. America cannot afford intolerant judges.
(By the way, the "Eugene"s in the response stem from the fact that Prof. Hamburger and I are indeed on a first-name basis—we've known each other for years. My formality in turn stems not from personal distance, but from my custom in blog posts to generally refer to people formally, unless they are co-bloggers. In person, we'd be Phil and Eugene to each other.)
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"A 23-year-old... does something "intolerant," and this makes him unfit, perhaps thirty years later, to serve on the bench?"
Wasn't that the standard that the left tried to impose on Kavanaugh?
Don Nico: To be fair, those allegations were (1) of a serious past crime, not of an intolerant rejection of an article, and (2) of a current false denial of that crime. Whatever one might think of how those allegations were made and reviewed, those strike me as quite different from what the WSJ op-ed is discussing.
Professor, you forgot “and made by character assassins who knew the allegations were false”.
Unless you know the allegations were false, you can't know that anyone else knew they were false. So how about you start by showing us the dispositive proof that led you to know the allegations were false?
Credible eyewitness testimony.
The testimony was he said she said. You can reasonably find either more credible. But you can't know whose version was more accurate, whether either was deliberately lying, and certainly not that someone else knew that one of them was lying.
He said, she said, and everybody around said she wasn't even at that party. But you know, no way to tell.
I think all of this is kind of besides the point. Whatever the standard of proof was, it wasn't met to the degree where it prevented him from becoming a SC judge.
Eugene's point still stands. If Kavanaugh had been guilty of those crimes, the fact that they had happened many years earlier wouldn't exactly be the same thing as being a biased law editor. If he'd committed a sexual felony, he probably should have spent time in prison, which most certainly would have negatively affected a potential career on the bench.
True enough Ev. I accept that was a difference even if his accuser was caught in two lies in her testimony.
But my comment was aimed at saying that much of "cancelling" is based on thing people have said 20 or 30 years ago.
Excuse me, lawyer dipshits. The purpose of school is education. In education, all sides of a subject are covered. If only one side is allowed, that is called indoctrination. That is not the purpose of the tax exemption, the government funding, the subsidies, the loans granted. All those should be cancelled at the slightest hint of indoctrination. The taxpayer is denied standing in a delusional decision by the scumbag lawyer Supreme Court. That should be restored. Then, any tax payer should have standing to mandamus the end of all those governmental privileges for the slightest hint of indoctrination. Religious schools that exclude atheism as side of a subject, radical treason indoctrination camps like the Ivy league, may stay open, just without any government privilege or subsidy.
I include accreditation as a government granted privilege. Let the Ivy decree be from an unaccredited school.
I honestly expected you to say, "never mind keeping them off the bench, death is too good for them."
OTOH, a 23 yro isn't a minor and hasn't been so for years. Worse, this particular hypothetical adult has a position of trust/leadership in that adult world.
That said, the real question isn't whether someone was intolerant 30 years ago. The question is whether they are still intolerant today...and at the very least, they should be questioned whether they stand by that old article, and if not, to explain what was wrong with it.
No. He was accused of attempted rape, not doing something intolerant. Now, I'm not saying that I found the accusations sufficiently credible; I did not. But I found them sufficiently serious that they'd have been disqualifying if true. (That's the Blasey Ford allegations; the Debra Ramirez ones, I would not have found disqualifying.)
I do wish there'd been a hint of an investigation, at least.
Would that include having her treating psychologist's notes disclosed? In any civil litigation, the privilege would have been held waived, and it would have been disclosed.
Or at least not a pretend investigation.
They interviewed everyone she claimed was at the event. None of them backed her story. Investigation complete, case closed.
An investigation of what? Everyone who was potentially there gave their version of events. What would you like to have seen done that wasn't?
I'm not sure that's true. The FBI's investigation was pretextual. All the uncovering was done by the press.
There were apparently witnesses turned away by the FBI.
But more importantly, that's the thing about an investigation - it sometimes finds things to investigate as it works.
Did you expect the FBI to turn over all materials it found during its investigation to the public?
Sarcastro, when you have an accusation that lacks both a date and a location and the initial people interviewed have no idea what you are talking about, what can you do?
When you are awash in clear false accusations on a transparent political witch hunt, can you take anyone who volunteers information at their word?
If you think the investigation was deficient, please give some suggestion of what you think the FBI should have done
Followed up on anyone who contacted them, which they admit they did not.
I imagine that happens in many high profile investigations where you get a million people claiming they knew a guy who knew a guy who cut the hair of someone who said he was there.
I'm not really sure what techniques they use to determine what leads they simply can't waste time on, but I have to believe those must exist.
Plus, if there really was credible evidence of his guilt some journalist would have won a Pulitzer by now digging it all up.
I'm not even saying that I believe the accusers knowingly lied about everything. Just that if there was DNA evidence or a video proving his guilt, it would have been discovered. I imagine they talked to everyone who could have given any direct eyewitness accounts of the events.
"I imagine that happens in many high profile investigations where you get a million people claiming ..."
I can't speak of political investigations, but I have read a couple of police bios where they set up a hotline for a serial killer or something and 99.44% of the calls are of the genre 'My cat told me the killer is a Gemini'.
They also get a lot of false confessions which is why they hold back details of the crime - 'So you're the Sacramento Slasher? Great, describe the knife you left at the scene...'.
There are weird people out there.
Witnesses to what? Not to the purported attack.
I don't know; that info is not public.
But I do know that a proper investigation is not limited to direct witnesses.
"I do wish there'd been a hint of an investigation, at least."
Even if you believe more investigation would have shed additional light on the matter, there would have been more opportunity for investigation if the allegation had come out sooner.
She had twenty years.
But with any decision-making process, at some point you have to stop gathering information and make a decision.
I don't know what more investigation would have uncovered.
I think this was worth looking into, long-ago or not. EV explains why the allegation was a legitimate concern above.
No, he explains why things she alleged are a legitimate concern.
But just because some loon comes out of the woodwork and alleges something doesn't mean that it's a legitimate concern.
I do wish that there had been some punishment for Ford being caught in two deliberate lies under oath
Really? That's what you take from the whole thing- that the weak-tea right wing throw shit at the wallapalooza was legit, and the allegations were not?
I don't know what happened. I think those on the left calling him a rapist are dumb, and I think those on the right who are sure Kav is pure as the driven snow are dumb.
I think those on the right who are sure Kav is pure as the driven snow are dumb.
I too think people who exist only in my imagination are dumb.
I think a full investigation by a properly neutral FBI team (Someone out of the Salt Lake City field office, for example), of Ford, her allies and the Democratic Congresswomen and her aids) would have been very revealing...
>a properly neutral FBI team
LOL.
If Democrats had acted in good faith they could have brought the matter up when they were first contacted about it. There would have been time to investigate. They did not.
Someone claims a terrible assault occurred, but cannot describe the time or place. She names witnesses to the event where it allegedly occurred, none of whom supported her story. What was to be investigated?
David, aren't you a lawyer? Wasn't the lying radical leftist at a teen party voluntarily? She implied consent to what happens at teen parties. See the movie Project X. What happens at teen parties is well known, especially by teens.
If you worked hard to get in the vicinity of Mike Tyson, if you get into Mike Tyson's limo at 3 AM, if you go up the elevator to Mike Tyson's hotel room, if you enter Mike Tyson's hotel room, if you fail to flee Mike Tyson's hotel room, you have implied consent. Consent is a full defense to a crime, except murder. Insert the name Bill Cosby into that sequence, as well.
David, aren't you a lawyer? STFU. Your every utterance has no validity, since you only speak rent seeking.
David, let me translate your rent seeking speak. Kavanaugh was accused of a serious crime. The accuser has low credibility. Let's investigate.
That means, let's spend $10 million on lawyer fees and return nothing of value in a Republican majority Senate. STFU you lawyer scammer.
So you're pro-rape as well as a racist. Good to know.
David, you are a rent seeker. In the rent, a man with a gun collects taxes. The money is given to lawyers. They return nothing of value. In the case of the Kavanaugh hearing, the lawyers return a toxic miasma that is highly malodorous and offensive. Rent seeking is a form of armed robbery and should be criminalized. Then all rent seekers are sent to camp.
Consent is a defense to rape charges. Sex should be Mirandized, including the presence of a lawyer. I have proposed an 18 page informed consent to sex. Every paragraph should be read out loud and initialed. A 3 day lawyer review period should ensue. A lawyer should be present at every sex act to assure proper consent.
Not really. That was all innuendo.
What Democrats did to Kavanaugh was extremely stupid because both parties now have robust pipelines of potential justices and we will never see another Justice Souter…so Kavanaugh’s replacement would most likely have been more conservative and younger than Kavanaugh. So party not in power should no longer engage in vetting justices because the opposing party would be better off impeaching a justice if something comes up in the future because they would more likely control the levers of power and get a justice from their party appointed.
Let them live with the rules they tried to impose on all of us.
re: "a sense of perspective"
Since the confirmation process seems to be regularly dredging up "concerns" that are far less relevant to judicial qualifications and that are easily that far back or more, I don't see Prof Hamburger's proposal as a significant deviation from the apparently-acceptable standards.
But okay, maybe you could exclude law-review editors from the list of permanent disqualifiers. That issue is a lot less relevant to deans, bar-association leaders and others whose intolerant actions are far more likely to be temporally proximate to any potential judicial nomination.
That said, I think you may be reading more into the proposal than is really there. I read it as a proposal that it's a negative mark to be considered, not an automatic blacklist. But maybe I'm wrong. I don't have access to the entire op-ed.
I think that there is something to the argument that the way to cancel the cancel culture is to make everyone play by its rules.
I would modify that a bit: if you seek to impose rules on others against their will, you must abide by those rules yourself, even if you fail to impose those rules on others.
What should be done about law-school deans and others in legal institutions who censor, cancel, blacklist, refuse to hire, fire, "investigate" and otherwise threaten others for their opinions? A partial answer lies in reminding them that their misconduct may disqualify them from ever sitting on the bench….
I should have thought that that sort of behavior would by now be a strong recommendation for nomination to high judicial office by a Democratic President, and might soon be a sine qua non for confirmation by a Democratic majority Senate.
Does anyone seriously think that the average Dem Senator thinks that cancelling, blacklisting, refusing to hire, firing, or "investigating" "wrongthinkers" or "hatespeakers" is a bad thing rather than a good thing ?
Can we have some examples of Dem Senators speaking out against this sort of thing ?
Maybe spend more time dealing with actual things to criticize Democrats for, and less speculative future telepathy.
I note that you have not offered any contenders for the competition :
Can we have some examples of Dem Senators speaking out against this sort of thing ?
But, don't worry, we're still open for entries.
Lee,
I don't think senators, of whatever party, routinely comment on the actions of law school deans.
So I don't think much of your challenge.
I also think little of your attempt to shift the burden to guilty until they say they're not.
If a dean, .... can he be trusted as a judge to listen with an open mind to conflicting legal positions?
I'd say that's up to whoever is doing the nominating/confirming, and not Hamburger.
While I don't find Prof. Hamburger's position very persuasive, this seems like a pretty stupid criticism. Obviously he's not suggesting that he has the power to impose this standard: he's suggesting that it would be good if the people who do have that power adopted it.
It's just fascinating how many ideas conservatives have for deciding how to pick judicial nominees when they don't have the power to make them. Hamburger has proposed a "be intolerant of intolerance of intolerance" standard; Josh wants to give the Senate the power to name the president's "short list."
All of these standards, of course, are to be voluntarily accepted by the appointing person - or risk having them be cynically invoked by the other party when they choose to stonewall the nomination for purely partisan reasons, I suppose.
Hamburger isn't very tolerant of those he views as intolerant.
Seems to be kind of a nut case, from what I can tell.
I wonder if Hamburger thinks hos involvement in the hiring and firing of Trumpist coup plotter Jeffrey Clark would disqualify him (Hamburger) for a judgeship.
People who keep pushing this coup/insurrection lie should be put in prison.
Another conservative champion of free expression.
Just STFU, you idiot.
pot.kettle.
That's helpful. Another idiot.
STFU said the champion of free expression, you idiot.
He's not urging that you be arrested, fired from your job, or banned from this site. He's expressing his personal desire that you shut up. That's not anti-free expression. It's classic response speech.
"People who keep pushing this coup/insurrection lie should be put in prison."
On what basis, pray tell? Please be specific.
Because you can't shout "insurrection" in a crowded theater.
" People who keep pushing this coup/insurrection lie should be put in prison. "
Mitch McConnell (without reservation) and Kevin McCarthy (mumbling) described the Jan. 6 event as a "violent insurrection."
You are an alienated, deplorable, bigoted clinger, BravoCharlieDelta. Stomping the likes of you into disaffected irrelevance in the American culture war has been important, enjoyable work for your betters.
I find your whining about it entertaining.
"Stomping the likes of you into disaffected irrelevance in the American culture war has been important, enjoyable work for your betters."
From the guy who supports FGM and performing unnecessary double mastectomies on girls.
What is FGM, you bigoted hayseed?
It is a label used on the street pills guys like you use to get through another deplorable day in clingerland?
enjoy ur 6-3 conservative SCOTUS, crybaby. I'll bet you good money that within 20 years it will be 7-2. If you even live long enough to see that. God knows you're probably obese.
As a partitioning algorithm, "If American, decide obese" has a 70% accuracy rate. We're not even the lead anymore.
I'll wager $10,000 on that (fewer than seven conservatives on the Court during the next 20 years). Or are you all talk, you bigoted knuckledragger.
Those who agree with the opinion piece here seem less interested in solving a problem, and more interested in spite and vengeance.
Never the sign of a good policy proposal.
I was listening to a reporter talking about the Canada truck convoy, and she described the atmosphere on the ground as carnival-like, celebratory. It's a community of disconnected, lonely people who have found others like themselves, and were just vibing - without really a concrete idea of what they wanted or how to achieve it, or any concern for the kind of chaos they were causing.
In some ways it reminds me of the Taliban taking over Afghanistan. Very happy to destroy what others have created, but no real plan for what comes after, and no real concern for how others will suffer for it.
I observed something similar at a Ron Paul rally. For a few moments, those hopeless misfits and antisocial losers felt normal and successful.
u comment on like every post of a libertarian law blog abt how much u hate rural ppl and apparently others are the misfits and losers lmao
This isn't a libertarian blog, you deplorable right-wing bigot.
Do you contend Ron Paul fans are not hopeless misfits?
Just like the Taliban, except without the mass executions and rigidly enforce Islamic fundamentalism.
If you at least wanted to make a somewhat thought-provoking comparison, you would say they resembled OWS or CHOP.
Not yet, anyway. It's not like they haven't been talking about executions, arming themselves to the teeth, using apocalyptic rhetoric, phoning in death threats, enthusing over Christian supremacy, etc. Republicans across the country are looking for more and more ideas to ban from schools and universities. Bob from Ohio over there wants to ban porn. Behar wants to execute lawyers and journalists. Even Brett has sadly conceded that, when push comes to shove, the only way to protect "his rights" may be to endorse political violence. Go on over to the "main" Reason site, and you'll find plenty of pseudonymous commenters talking about killing "commies."
The worst you can find on the left-side of the spectrum is maybe some schadenfreude when a COVID-denier sputters to death in a hospital bed, after weeks of Facebook posts telling Brandon to "go."
Found the Rev's boyfriend!
Are you obese and diseased too?
Speaking of which, when's the last time anyone saw a comment from aktenberg? I wonder if he's a 1/6 defendant.
In some ways it reminds me of the Taliban taking over Afghanistan.
My days of not taking you seriously are definitely coming to a middle.
Of all the criticisms that can be levied against Hamburger's argument, Eugene, it is strange to me that your mind first goes to the reformed (or not) racist. And then the rest here is just "Where do we draw the line????"
Law professors. Sheesh.
The problem with Hamburger's argument is in the false premise that an academic dean (or any of the other roles he cites) are supposed to act with a kind of "official neutrality" as to opposing viewpoints, akin to what a judge must employ when hearing the arguments of parties before the court. Setting aside the silly and trivial counterexample of an institution with perfectly justified ideological precommitments, even a knowledge-pursuing institution with the most ecumenical of mandates must be regulated to accomplish its mission. There are certain questions and facts that have to be acknowledged as simply beyond debate; there are certain disputes and inquiries that are no longer worth serious attention.
You may be able to get into court by claiming that God told you not to wear a mask or that your prayers are meaningless if not offered by the dozen; but that kind of claim would be laughed out of any serious seminary or theological school. You might win before the Supreme Court by arguing that you believe that Plan B is an abortifacient, but your paper to that effect would be easily dismissed by any medical journal. You might carry the day with an argument that "the way to end discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race," but that kind of claim would be rightly rejected as unserious in broad swaths of academia. (Save for legal academia, maybe.)
The leaders and gatekeepers of academic institutions are not neutral arbiters of ideas, and they are not supposed to be. They have to set standards and protect their communities from distracting controversies that do not further the academic mission. There is no reason to invite Charlie Kirk to your campus, but not because he's a fascist; it's because he's a deeply unserious man with no interest in contributing anything to good faith intellectual debate.
It is not an easy role to play, and to be sure, the temperature of our time may sometimes drive leaders to err on the side of mollifying "caution." But overzealously investigating Ilya Shapiro over a dickhead tweet (and Christ, how are we still talking about this) does not really signal that someone lacks something essential to a judicial constitution. They are entirely different roles and functions.
And Hamburger’s response shows why line-drawing objections are so tedious and pointless. In some cases, he accepts the “slippery slope” outcome; in others, he denies that it would result.
What a tiresome exchange.
Certainly, I agree with you and the late William F. Buckley that academic freedom is a superstition, and that in many cases universities should teach *what* to think, not simply "blah blah how to think."
I think those sorts of decisions, though, should be made by the trustees, who are *entrusted* with the responsibility of properly governing the institution, leaving deans and the like to implement such policies, not make up their own.
"that your prayers are meaningless if not offered by the dozen; but that kind of claim would be laughed out of any serious seminary or theological school"
The trustees of a seminary should certainly reject such a position, assuming they can find anyone who holds it, and perhaps you can cite some examples.
"You might carry the day with an argument that 'the way to end discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race,' but that kind of claim would be rightly rejected as unserious in broad swaths of academia. (Save for legal academia, maybe.)"
It's possible that many trustees hold to this "unserious" position and might actually *disqualify* someone who believes in racial discrimination.
A distinction without a difference.
The rest of this is irrelevant garbage.
*Someone* got up on the wrong side of bed this morning.
Really, you post is so full of errors I feel a bit like the proverbial mosquito on a nudist beach. I mean, where do I start?
Let's start by your glib assertion that governing universities by hired administrators is the same thing as governing universities by trustees.
What garbage?
When there was even a *suggestion* that the Trustees at the University of North Carolina would make a different personnel decision than an academic department, the internet was filled with spittle-flecked outrage - even on this very blog.
Here's just one example:
https://classics.unc.edu/2021/06/23/open-letter-to-the-board-of-trustees-on-nikole-hannah-jones/
Maybe you agree that the trustees were (temporarily, to be sure) wrong, but then you'd be agreeing with me that there *is* a distinction and a difference between trustees and administrators.
Let's see...what else is there? Ah, yes, your failure, despite my still-open invitation, to cite anyone who believes "that your prayers are meaningless if not offered by the dozen."
Ah, yes, there's your blithe assumption that the cure for racism is a little hair of the dog - that is, more racism, only this time in favor of different groups than before. I personally don't think that's a serious position.
etc,
A "distinction without a difference" is a plausible distinction that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Hamburger's claim is that a university administrator who demonstrates "intolerance" of certain points of view thereby demonstrates that they are unfit to serve as a judge, since a judge must be able to remain impartial as between the parties appearing before the judge.
My response to his claim was that this argument fundamentally misconceives the role of a university administrator. They are not merely "neutral arbiters" who must hear "both sides" of any intellectual dispute; they serve rather in a gatekeeping function designed to promote and protect the kinds of intellectual inquiry that should happen at a university.
You essentially conceded the point, but you purported still to disagree with me, by observing that boards of trustees have ultimate authority over a university's educational mission. But that is neither here nor there. The point is that the university administrators serve in a gatekeeping capacity. Whether they do so per their own conception of a university's mission or subject to the direction of a governing body is not relevant to the present discussion.
A distinction, that is, without a difference.
As for the rest - your nitpicking over the examples I ran through are also irrelevant. My examples were rhetorical, only intended to demonstrate that you can make claims in court, and have them seriously considered by a judge, that would not be taken seriously in an academic context. This helps to illustrate how the two roles - university administrator vs. judge - differ, and are subject to different kinds of standards and needs for "impartiality."
If you disagree with the specific examples and characterizations that I chose, that's fine. I'm not going to argue with you over how justifiable my polemic is. The important point stands.
"You essentially conceded the point"
In the same sense that you "concede" that you're a wonderful guy and a snappy dresser.
"Proudly proclaim" would be a better term for what I said than "concede," but apparently it suits your agenda to pretend you're extorting unwilling concessions out of me.
You referred to "an academic dean (or any of the other roles [Hamburger?] cites." You didn't mention trustees, and neither did the Hamburglar, he said "dean, committee member, law-review editor, bar-association leader, or other person in authority" - so go ahead and pretend that all the time you were squeezing the trustees into "other person in authority" by your reference. If that was your meaning, you could certainly have tried *a lot more* to show a bit of clarity. You'd have to do some bizarre pretzel twists of Hamburger's language, but I'm sure you're up to that.
As for your straw-manning about public worship and your endorsement of racial discrimination, you're the one who brought these things up, not I. I'd fully understand if you don't want to defend the propositions you casually threw out.
nb - Normally I'd address you civilly, but you forfeited the right to be addressed in that way.
You don’t seem to be interested at all in discussing the topic at hand:
“I didn’t ‘concede’ anything!” Cal, I can read your original comment still, it’s still there.
“You didn’t mention trustees…” And I have explained why adding that nuance doesn’t really change the argument. All you’re doing now is repeating yourself.
“Your examples were strawmen!” And, again, I have explained that even if they were, the point in citing them wasn’t to say anything about the merits of the “strawman” claims, but rather to draw a distinction between the kinds of questions considered in court and in academic settings. Thus, there is really no point in defending them on their own merits. Legal complaints and briefs have to clear a much lower bar than claims in an academic setting, and the role a judge plays in considering the former is very different from the role an administrator (or, indirectly, a board of trustees, if you like) plays in considering the latter.
Cal, I do not know whether you are a committed but unsophisticated troll, or simply someone who can’t play in the big leagues, but your insistence on arguing over irrelevant points does not inspire me to spend too much time arguing with you.
Your dancing and evasion can't get you away from the actual meaning of what you said.
Yes, you said it was easier to argue against racism in court than in academia because of academia's higher standards. Such high standards that only racism like yours could meet the standards.
And the reason you're not spending much time addressing what I said is that you have only invective ("garbage," "clown") and not evidence on your side.
You are not merely a troll but a racist troll, and confronted with a challenge to your racism you try to wave it off as simply an incidental remark you tossed off to make a broader point.
Rather than have the courage of your own racism, you emit ink like a squid and scuttle away.
"“I didn’t ‘concede’ anything!” Cal, I can read your original comment still, it’s still there."
Which makes it all the more remarkable that you think you can get away with your misrepresentations.
I *proudly proclaimed,* not "conceded," that the university has to enforce some standards.
Unlike you, I don't think racism is one of the standards they should enforce - it is, indeed, they should enforce the opposite of racism, viz, nondiscrimination.
I refer to your comments as “garbage” because you insist on arguing about things I’ve said that are not relevant to the argument I’ve made. The comment where I called you a “clown” was even worse than what you’re doing here - fighting the hypothetical and nursing another grievance entirely.
I’ve been about as clear as I can be. I’m not going to fight with you about the nature of systemic racism or the merits of various religious claims, which seems to be all that you care about. This conversation is clearly beyond you, and your reading comprehension makes attempts at good faith debate pointless.
"I’ve been about as clear as I can be."
Then I feel even more sorry for you than for the misguided people who try to understand you.
These kinds of snipes are always more amusing than hurtful. I'm sorry, some idiot online doesn't think I can write clearly? Gosh, how ever will I survive? Do you want to call me a fat faggot, as well? Get it out of your system, hey?
I get more than enough validation of my analytical and writing ability in the real world, and I'm certainly not coming here for it. For me, it's more like exploring a primitive civilization and learning to speak in your caveman terms: "OOGA BOOGA, REVERSE RACISM IS THE REAL RACISM!!"
"I get more than enough validation of my analytical and writing ability in the real world"
Perchance you do. It may well be that, like fine wine, you only bring out your intelligence on suitable occasions, but while on the Internet you're content with Mad Dog 20/20, which would account for your showing the reasoning skills, and the manners, of a gutter bum while on this forum.
Consider, for instance:
"OOGA BOOGA, REVERSE RACISM IS THE REAL RACISM!!"
You just got through explaining that your views on racism were utterly irrelevant to the point you were trying to make, now you introduce the subject again.
If you can mention it, I can mention it.
You are a racist.
The pre-woke Merriam-Webster's said that "racial prejudice or discrimination" is racism, with no reservations or footnotes about "it's OK if you discriminate against the *right* people."
And since it turns out that your earlier remarks about race and religion *were* relevant, after all, perhaps you can *finally* produce an example of someone who believes that "your prayers are meaningless if not offered by the dozen."
HRNNNGHH YOU SAID THE NO-NO WORD AGAIN, NO!
NOT GOOD, NO!
BOOK SAYS YOU ARE WRONG! LOOK AT BOOK! NOT WRONG BOOK, RIGHT BOOK! YOU ARE WRONG!
WHY YOU TALK ABOUT INSTITUTIONAL STRUCTURES AND FUNCTIONS, ME WANT TALK ABOUT OTHER THINGS! HRNNNNNNGGGGHH!!!!!
Simon,
I think Eugene simply likes to cover all angles of the argument in general, as well as the specifics that are sufficient on their own.
He covered everything you covered. They are very different jobs. It can be looked at your way, with your examples, but when engaging in a discussion like this by trying to win with superior value judgements you end up with this type of exchange between you and Cal.
Another way to put it, to the person actually making the proposal if you want to actually persuade (or win if that's your thing) is to say, just because you suck at one job doesn't mean you'll suck at another.
Either way, different jobs.
it is strange to me that your mind first goes to the reformed (or not) racist
It might be strange...if that was actually what happened. But it wasn't. He was espousing a principal, not specifically defending an individual, nor any action(s) by that individual.
So here we have another case of, "Are you really that much of an illiterate dipshit, or just that much of a dishonest asshole?"
It was the first problematic hypothetical that occurred to him. But you are right that I jumped to the conclusion that the "intolerant" law review editor in question would be something akin to a "racist" editor. I now see the "intolerance" in question would likely be something more akin to "not sufficiently tolerant of racism."
My mistake; I had assumed he was talking about the sorts of reasons that might actually weigh in favor of disqualifying someone from holding judicial office.
In any event, it seems to me a mistake to create overbroad, perpetual, and categorical disqualifying rules—for judicial appointments or for most other things—especially when those rules turn on behavior that is generally perfectly lawful even if, in our view, insufficiently tolerant.
IOW...live and let live.
If a person in a position of authority (say, a LS dean) is willing to cast aside any pretense of due process, common civility, fairness, in dealing with a subordinate (say a law student) why should that sort of person be trusted with being a federal judge?
If they are willing to cast aside the basics of American justice in any situation, why would a federal bench suddenly make them righteous?
If a person in a position of authority (say, a LS dean) is willing to cast aside any pretense of due process, common civility, fairness, in dealing with a subordinate (say a law student) why should that sort of person be trusted with being a federal judge?
What if, after "due process, common civility, fairness," the LS dean, or the hiring committee, decides that the job candidate's opinions are so ludicrous that they don't think he should be hired?
Bernard,
You did not answer ER-Doc's comment at all.
All you did is talk about the common practice of every hiring committee
In the context of the piece and the comments string, seems obvious conjecture directed at how Prof. Hamburger might view that hiring decision-maker up for a judgeship.
The implication being, based on Prof Hamburger's expressed views, that the good professor might believe a judicial candidate should be blacklisted from the position for, years before, declining to make a ludicrous hire Hamburger and ER-Doc thinks not ludicrous.
I think the answer to Flight's question is that they are very different jobs with very different incentives.
Due process isn't required or incentivized for a LS Dean who doesn't want to end up on the wrong end of the cancellation stick himself. Unlike a judge, he has paying customers he has to please, and right now the customers, for the most part, aren't big fans of due process in this context.
It's kind of like saying there should be an automatic disqualification from the bench for any parent who tells their kid, "because I said so!"
No due process to be found there either.
If a dean, committee member, law-review editor, bar-association leader, or other person in authority cancels, blacklists, excludes, threatens or otherwise disadvantages scholars, students, lawyers or their work on the basis of their opinions, can he be trusted as a judge to listen with an open mind to conflicting legal positions?
Well, let's leave out "threatens," as that is a different thing altogether, but how does Hamburger know, or why does he assume, that someone who "excludes," whatever that means, people on the basis of their opinions hasn't listened with an open mind and then concluded that the opinion in question is batshit crazy?
Of course that's entirely possible. One may listen thoughtfully and carefully to another and then decide, based on what they said, that they shouldn't be hired, recommended for a job, etc.
" What should be done about law-school deans and others in legal institutions who censor, cancel, blacklist, refuse to hire, fire, "investigate" and otherwise threaten others for their opinions? "
Prof. Hamburger would disqualify everyone who has worked at a conservative-controlled -- dogma-enforcing, discriminatory (from hiring to firing and administration to disciplinary matters), censorship-shackled, nonsense-teaching, superstition-steeped, science-suppressing -- campus.
If he meant what he said, that is. But is there much doubt his position in the clingerverse would incline him to issue a pass to right-wing schools?
I think the basic issue is that we have to get out of a mentality where people display tribal identity and signal virtue by coming down Draconian hard on people who commit prominent vices. That was true for an older set of taboos, when there was life imprisonment for sodomy and small-scale drug in some places, but its also true for a new set of taboos.
In general, it’s not a good idea to deal with socially disapproved symbolic-import transgressions by totally destroying people.
So in many ways threatening to cancel people for canceling people just creates more of the same, just drags everyone deeper into the rut, rather than getting out and allowing us to move on.
We have to move into a world where being meaner than the next guy isn’t a quick way to get socially approved.
Funny how leftists only ever want to move on after their tactics are turned on them. The other path is to not let personal destruction and cancellation be a path that has no downside as you suggest.
Here is a counterexample I think Hamburger would find more challenging:
Suppose that Charlie is a law review editor-in-chief with well-developed "liberal" academic views. But Charlie does not allow these views to color which articles he accepts for publication; "conservative" and "liberal" pieces are accepted with about the level of frequency one would expect given the composition of legal academia more generally. In this respect, Charlie is "impartial."
However, whenever Charlie accepts a "conservative" piece, he invites a "liberal" scholar to write a response piece. Both the "conservative" and "liberal" scholars are permitted to see each others' work and to revise them to address criticisms and objections. But he does not do this when Charlie accepts a "liberal" piece; he allows such pieces to be published without answer. In this respect, Charlie shows a clear pattern of bias and impariality against conservative authors.
However, the result is better scholarship. While unopposed "liberal" pieces are accepted and published as submitted, "conservative" pieces go through a fair measure of scrutiny that allows their authors to hone their arguments and present a better case. Readers, in turn, are treated to a lively exchange of ideas. Thus, in this respect, Charlie has done a good job as a law review editor, at least with respect to his curation of conservative pieces.
Has Charlie demonstrated, by his actions, that he cannot be trusted with a lifetime judicial appointment?
That would all depend on what "liberal" and "conservative" mean in this context.
Is Charlie the kind of liberal who believes, with Hubert Humphrey: ""It was once said that the moral test of Government is how that Government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the needy and the handicapped"?
Then by all means consider him for a judgeship if he meets the legal qualifications.
Or is he the kind of liberal who deems certain children outside the pale of government protection, and who promotes the agenda of large woke corporations at the expense of labor and the public as a whole?
If he's a Hubert Humphrey liberal, and focuses on articles which sound the theme of how the law can help those who are most vulnerable, then by all means consider him. But if his concern is men playing women's sports, let some other person be a judge.
Clown.
Are you addressing your mother?
I tend to agree with professor Volokh. Really attempting to respond to blacklisting with more blacklisting is not a place we wish to go. First off doing so would justify the initial blacklisting and would make it just another tool of politics. Second off people who lean left tend to be better at blacklisting than people who lean right are so going toe to toe in a blacklisting fight would we lose, especially when it comes to academia.
Now I do have some agreement with Prof. Hamburger. I do not think a bar to judicial service should be used, but it is something a judicial nominee should be questioned about by members of the senate judiciary committee. The questions should be limited to very narrow events though. Realizing that the class has gone way too far on tangents when a student who disagrees with you speaks is one thing. Attempting to silence/defund student groups who disagree with you is another, especially at a public university where students are subject to constitutional protections and a law professor should be the first to point that out to the administration.
" Second off people who lean left tend to be better at blacklisting than people who lean right "
. . . says someone profoundly ignorant with respect to nearly all of the conservative-controlled campuses in America.
Other than that, though . . . well, still a silly comment.
"As at other times when I disagree with Eugene, I am half persuaded he is right."
A great compliment, which I share. This is why people of all stripes read this blog.
"My point, however, was that intolerance is disqualifying."
Apparently (ironically? oddly? sadly?), Prof. Philip Hamburger (Columbia LAW School), doesn't know what a judge's duties are because "tolerance" sure isn't one of them.
Were the judges in NY and DC being intolerant when they disbarred Guiliani?
Same with the Kraken lawyers who were sanctioned and still face disbarrment?
Yes and yes, because we expect judges to be PRECISELY intolerant of garbage antics in the law room.
^
Exhibit A of what Prof. Hamburger was talking about
In any conversation about events from long ago, there’s always the opportunity to say something like "In retrospect, I made the wrong choices. This specific choice I made was wrong." Possibly followed by an apology to someone for getting it wrong.
That’s something a regular person might say. The totalitarians and ideological cleansers don’t seem like the sort of people who would ever admit to being wrong though.
No need to disqualify them for what they did long ago when you can reject them for still being terrible in the present day. Or accept them if they’ve sufficiently improved.
On the other hand, there’s the idea that disqualification from some future position is fitting reciprocal justice for those past events. If people can’t be civilly persuaded to stop bad behavior, then perhaps treating them as they’ve treated others is in order.
Love content like this. More please!
Somehow the point here seems to have been lost in relitigating the Kavanaugh confirmation. I understand the analogy albeit imperfect, as analogies often are, but they are the first weapon of reason and I'm all about what about.
In regard of analogies Eugene, I think the speeding analogy poor. The issue Hamburger addresses is poor judging, not poor judgement.
You may be right that being the young purity police at the law journal, or even hiring committees of more 'mature' participants shouldn't fall under the same umbrella as to name a few, what the Dean at Georgetown is in the midst of doing to Ilya Shapiro , the sidelining of outspoken professor Amy Wax or the threats law school administration at Yale visited on a student there over a party invitation (as was thankfully condemned by Akil Amar at the Fed Soc convention): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAul5RHxN4k&t=1894s
Perhaps Philip weakens his argument by making it too encompassing which is really the issue with woke campus administrators. I understand that folks could have some difficulty in parsing Amy Wax's contribution to public intellectual discourse (not that administrators need to sanction it) but if its lumped in with an invitation to the trap house, it isn't clear that administrators can even judge what is worthy of serious discussion.
I wonder what would be Phil's response if such administrators were to simply condemn certain remarks or emphasize the dissociation of the institution rather than demote, suspend, or sanction. Perhaps it would reveal their sensitivities in that they didn't spend much time condemning plausibly intemperate remarks from those in the progressive fold, but that doesn't seem as disqualifying.
I think Eugene's analogy wasn't meant to be as specific as yours to the overall proposal. It was only meant to illustrate that there are degrees to mistakes of the past, and they should be judged in the present accordingly.
But if you are going to get specific to the proposal, I think there are still big differences between the job of "judge" in academia and the job of being an actual judge on the bench. I might wish that that there were more actual due process in academia, but the majority of the paying customers don't seem to agree with me.
My, probably flawed, analogy is that it's like disqualifying someone from the bench for not utilizing due process as a parent. I might even think due process is often a good idea in that context as well, But still, different job, different rules, different incentives.