The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Right to Defy Criminal Demands: The Duties to Retreat and to Comply with Negative Demands
I've just finished up a rough draft of my The Right to Defy Criminal Demands article, and I thought I'd serialize it here, minus most of the footnotes (which you can see in the full PDF). I'd love to hear people's reactions and recommendations, since there's still plenty of time to edit it. You can also see previous posts (and any future posts, as they come up), here.
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Thirteen states and D.C. continue to recognize a so-called "duty to retreat" as a limitation on the right to use lethal force in self-defense.[1] The Model Penal Code captures the standard definition well: Even in defending against threat of death or serious bodily harm, deadly force may not be used if "the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating." And this likely means that the defenders can't return to the place from which they retreated, at least for some time.
Seven states also recognize the duty to comply with negative demands, by denying the right to use deadly force in self-defense if "the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety … by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take."[2] And one state appears to recognize a narrow duty to comply with both positive and negative demands, but only if they are minor: North Dakota denies the right to use deadly force in self-defense if "it can be avoided, with safety to the actor and others, by … conduct involving minimal interference with the freedom of the individual menaced."
Here too the law in essence requires people to comply with criminal demands. Say Craig tells Danielle, "leave this bar or I'll kill you." (It's not Craig's bar, so he's not just demanding that she cease an illegal trespass.) If Danielle refuses to comply with Craig's demands, she will lose her right to use deadly force to protect herself against Craig's deadly attack.[3] And "[t]he same result follows, of course, if there is no demand but the actor knows that he will be attacked if he appears in a certain place." (Not all duty to retreat scenarios involve such demands—sometimes the attacker actually wants the defender to stay, for instance when the attacker wants to beat up the defender. But they often do involve such a "retreat or else" demand, and then the duty to retreat, if state law recognizes it, applies.)
Likewise if Craig tells Danielle, "don't dance with your new lover in front of me at this bar." That is "a demand that [s]he abstain from any action which [s]he has no duty to take." By refusing to "comply[] with [that] demand," Danielle again loses her right to use deadly force should Craig attack her. And the statutory formulation of the duty to comply could in principle extend to serious demands indeed: "Don't have sex with my ex-lover or I'll kill you"; "don't set up your business competing with me, or I'll kill you"; "don't set up an abortion clinic, or I'll kill you."
Of course, the theory behind such duties is that Danielle should try to have Craig arrested and prosecuted. But say he denies having made the threat, and it's just his word against Danielle's at that point. The police may then decline to arrest him, the prosecutor may decline to prosecute (perhaps foreseeing that it would be hard to prove the threat beyond a reasonable doubt based just on Danielle's word), or the jury may acquit for lack of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Then Danielle would still lose her lethal self-defense rights by (say) dating the ex-lover. Indeed, her report of Craig's threat to the police could be used against her, since it would show that Craig had indeed made a demand with which Danielle has refused to comply. Self-defense is a form of self-help, which is especially useful if past attempts to enlist the legal system's help have failed. The duties to retreat and to comply foreclose that form of self-help.
The duties to retreat and comply are sometimes characterized as a special case of the "necessity" requirement in self-defense law:
- To lawfully use deadly force in self-defense, the defender must reasonably believe that the use is necessary to prevent death, serious bodily injury, rape, kidnapping, or (in some states) some other serious crimes.
- Deadly self-defense is necessary, the argument goes, only if there is no alternative that would still avert the danger without using deadly force.
- And if there is an alternative—averting the danger by safely retreating—that means deadly force isn't necessary.
But this formulation of "necessity" is incomplete, because the law always recognizes that some alternatives need not be taken, because they unduly impose on your liberty.
For instance, say you're in a jurisdiction that doesn't allow deadly force simply to prevent robbery. (Half of all American jurisdictions take this view.) The "can't use lethal self-defense if it's not necessary" approach would suggest that you therefore can't use lethal self-defense if a robber demands your money, you refuse to obey, and he attacks you in a way that threatens death or serious bodily injury. After all, you could have averted the danger by handing over the money, so deadly force wasn't necessary.
Yet even the Model Penal Code's duty to comply wouldn't require this. Instead, it makes clear that the duty to comply never includes the duty to turn over property (except property demanded under a claim of right, for instance as with repossession of borrowed or mortgaged property). Having to turn over even a modest sum is seen as such an intrusion on liberty—or perhaps on dignity—that you don't lose your right to self-defense by refusing to take that alternative.
Likewise, say someone credibly says, "beg me for mercy, or I'll break your arm." No jurisdiction would bar you from using deadly force against this threat of serious bodily injury on the theory that deadly force was not "necessary" because you could have avoided the injury by begging.[4] Even the Model Penal Code makes clear that, while you have a duty to comply with demands to abstain from action—or else lose your right to self-defense—you don't have a duty to comply with demands to take action. Though there is an alternative (begging) that would still avert the danger without using deadly force, the Code (and, to my knowledge, the law of all states) would still let you use deadly force to protect yourself, without condemning such use as unnecessary.
The Code's drafters justified this exclusion of a duty to comply with positive demands by saying that such demands of "positive action" could be "infinite in variety," and some of them may be "outrageous, a demand to which the answer is that one would risk death rather than comply." Perhaps a demand for begging might so qualify for some people, and other positive demands for still more people.
So the duty to retreat is more specific than a necessity requirement: It is a statement that, if threatened with serious violence, you must surrender your right to be in a particular place—but not your right not to turn over your money, or your right not to beg—or lose your right to deadly self-defense. Likewise for the duty to comply with negative demands.
This may be part of the reason why, despite the Model Penal Code's endorsement, the duty to retreat is now recognized in only about a quarter of the states—and why the duty to comply has been adopted by even fewer states. Dean Margaret Raymond put it well in a 2009 article:
[The Model Penal Code's] approaches inappropriately undervalue that actor's dignitary interest …[:] the actor's interest in being permitted to move about freely and to pursue those activities fundamental to a free society, without being subjugated to the unlawful demands of another actor…. Any rule that constrains the law-abiding citizen's choice of lawful options by requiring her to submit to the unlawful demands of others in order to retain the privilege of self-defense improperly invades that interest. Such a rule … requires her to submit to the subjugation of an aggressive and unlawful actor. This allows bullies effectively to require compliance with their [express or implicit] demands.
Whatever the (uncertain) pragmatic costs and benefits of such duties to retreat or comply, such legally mandated "submi[ssion] to the subjugation of an aggressive and unlawful actor" is understandably unpopular.
The duty to comply with negative demands, by the way, appears to have been inherited from the Restatement (First) of Torts, where it was a limitation on the self-defense defense to a tort claim for battery. The Restatement, as best I can tell, invented the rule; it offers no case citations supporting its position. The Restatement (Second) continued to endorse the rule, but it was deliberately removed from the Restatement (Third).
The practical limitation on the duty to comply may be prosecutorial discretion. I have found only two appellate cases that refer to the duty having been invoked, and the facts in both seem unusual.
[1.] James Savage and C. Sumner Morrill were fellow bluegrass band members; Savage had an affair with Morrill's wife, and after that ended,
Savage and his wife went to [Morrill's farm]. Savage brought a loaded revolver, a tape recorder and copies of letters and tapes from Morrill's wife.
As a result of an earlier confrontation, Savage was aware that Morrill did not wish to discuss Savage's relationship with Morrill's wife…. Savage placed the tape recorder on the table and said he wanted Morrill to hear something. Morrill said he did not want to hear it, he knew all about it, this was his home and that he would have to get his "persuader." Savage fired four shots at Morrill, the first two in his chest, a third through the side and a fourth through his back as he was kneeling on the floor. Savage testified that Morrill had previously threatened to kill Savage and that he thought Morrill referred to a gun when he mentioned "persuader."
The court upheld the conviction, and in particular endorsed a jury instruction "that Savage was not justified in using deadly force if he knew that he could with complete safety comply with a demand by the victim that he abstain from doing something that he was not obliged to do"—namely, the demand that Savage stop talking about the affair.
Two facts here, though, make this an unusually strong case for a duty to comply, and may explain why it was argued in this case but so few others. First, Savage was in Morrill's house, doing something that Morrill had told me he didn't want to do. It doesn't appear that Morrill had demanded that Savage leave, so Savage wasn't exactly a trespasser. Still, any claim for a right to defy others' demands appears weaker when one is defying a homeowner's demands in his own home.
Morrill could have lawfully demanded that Savage leave, and could have lawfully threatened deadly violence as a means of backing that up. Morrill's demand that Savage abide by Morrill's conditions if he were to stay seems comparable.
Second, Savage was talking to Morrill, over Morrill's objections. The law often gives people considerable veto powers over others' talking to them, whether through unwanted letters, unwanted phone calls, or other unwanted contact. (Indeed, the ban on fighting words may be seen as a special case of that principle.) That would not justify Morrill's seeming implicit threat to shoot Savage if Savage continued discussing the matter. But it does weaken any interest on Savage's part in continuing to exercise his liberty notwithstanding Morrill's threat.
[2.] Lauren Daly and Margaret Dover were raising children together; after they broke up, they had conflicts about the custody arrangements. At one exchange of children, Daly shot Dover; her defense was that she believed Dover was trying to run her over with her car, and therefore shot in self-defense. The parties had apparently agreed that all exchanges would take place with Daly remaining in the home (presumably to avoid tense in-person interactions between Daly and Dover); and the judge instructed the jury that
[If the Commonwealth proves that Daly] knew that she could avoid the necessity of using deadly force with complete safety by complying with a demand that she abstain from any action she had no duty to make and failing to do so by coming out of the house and coming to the proximity of this automobile during the transfer of the child[,] … the actions of [Daly] are not justified.
This seems to me to be an error on the judge's part, because "the duty to retreat does not arise until the defendant forms a reasonable belief that the other person 'is using or about to use deadly physical force'"; by the same logic, the duty to comply wouldn't, either. Thus, if Daly and Dover were (say) having a non-visibly-life-threatening argument, and Dover said "just go away," Daly didn't go away, and Dover tried to run Daly over with her car, Daly would be able to use deadly force if she were unable to safely retreat at that point—it wouldn't matter that she could have avoided the problem by leaving before the situation became deadly (or else we would have a standing duty to avoid anyone who we think might threaten us if a conversation goes bad). Likewise here: If at the point Dover was (supposedly) trying to run Daly over, Daly couldn't safely avoid the situation by retreating or complying with a demand to abstain, she should have the right to use lethal force in self-defense—even if she could have avoided the problem by complying before the threat to her life became apparent.
[1] The states are essentially the mid-Atlantic and New England states (minus New Hampshire and Vermont), plus three midwestern states (Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Nebraska) and Hawaii.
[2] Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Maine, Nebraska, New Hampshire, and New Jersey.
[3] The right to use deadly force in self-defense against threats of death or serious bodily harm is understood by American law as a right—often even a constitutional right—and not just as a benefit that the law is free to withdraw.
[4] I assume that even under North Dakota's provision that "The use of deadly force is not justified if it can be avoided, with safety to the actor and others, by … conduct involving minimal interference with the freedom of the individual menaced," such begging-on-demand would be seen as more than a minimal interference with freedom.
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I'm confused. I'm in a duty-to-retreat state. Someone threatens me. If I don't leave, and this person starts to beat me/pulls out a gun, I'm not allowed to defend myself against this because I hadn't left?
Put another way, if someone doesn't comply, that person just has to take whatever the aggressor decides to dish out?
The duty to retreat is to protect the life of the good lawyer client, the criminal, and to preserve lawyer jobs. It is in bad faith, to make money for the scumbag lawyer occupation.
The correct duty is the duty to kill. All law abiding citizens should get gun safety training in high school, and be required to conceal carry. If you fail to fire on a violent criminal in your eyesight, get a $100 fine. Violent crime should include property destruction. Someone smashes a car window to get at the content, kill him on the spot.
Such shootings should be 100% immune legally.
The single feature of all low crime jurisdictions is public self help. The garbage lawyer profession is worthless. Indeed, its garbage laws and procedures are a major cause of crime.
Read closely: This doctrine is specific to lethal self defense. You're still entitled to defend yourself, but if the self defense ends with the person attacking you dead, you might end up on the hook for manslaughter charges.
It may vary by state but I believe it applies to any use of lethal force (e.g. using a gun to defend yourself) even if your assailant doesn't end up dead
The law isn't particularly rational or responsive to objective facts, is it? People don't come with "pause" switches, any degree of physical force that would have a good chance of stopping a determined attacker also carries a significant chance of killing them.
Brett Bellmore: That is correct (and Kevin Smith's point about this applying to any use of lethal force, even when it doesn't end up being lethal, is also correct). But I'd add that you might even end up on the hook for murder charges.
Volokh is a shameless denier of the toxicity of the lawyer profession, and its predominance in causing all crime.
The most shocking aspect of the duty to retreat is its cultural acceptance and assumption. It was the proximate cause of 9/11 and unforgivable. The lawyer protected terrorists slit the throat of a stewardess, and the lawyer feminized males failed to rise up.
You vile, stinking, traitor, subhuman filth lawyers caused 9/11 with your duty to retreat.
9/11 would be unthinkable with other national airlines, Israeli, Arab, Hispanic. Their males do not have a duty to retreat, do not fear prosecution by the scumbag lawyer profession. Their non-feminized males would have attacked the hijackers and saved their own lives and that of 3000 Americans.
This scumbag lawyer profession must be crushed to save our nation.
Duty to retreat in action: Kitty Genovese.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese
Her murdered died at 81, in bed, at taxpayer expense.
Have you ever considered stopping to take a breath, and organizing your thoughts into a smaller number of comments, rather than unloading hot take after hot take?
No. Perhaps, Reason can add an editing function.
The bystander effect is caused by and enforced by the duty to retreat. It occludes public self help, the sole unifying factor in all low crime jurisdictions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
"rather than unloading hot take after hot take?"
What's DB's backstory, anyway? Nasty divorce where "she got the gold mine, DB got the SHAFT"?
Wouldn't shock me. Divorces tend to leave men with a very jaundiced view of the legal system. My own ex didn't bankrupt me, so my own lawyer took care of it, and our divorce was totally uncontested and no complications at all.
That is a personal remark. It commits the Fallacy of Irrelevance. I never got a divorce. It is factually incorrect as well. You would like to change the subject by personally insulting me. That will not change the fact of the utter failure of every self stated goal of every law subject.
Professor, I do not think your examples are on point. I doubt any of those states—or any other for that matter—would prosecute a woman for killing a man.
As I followed the development of "Stand Your Ground" laws, part of the problem was women were going to prison for murder (criminal homicide) killing their abusive spouse or partner under circumstances where, if there had not existed a domestic angle, the woman would likely have been acquitted on grounds of self defense or been given lesser manslaughter conviction.
No one would prosecute a woman for killing a man? I have been on planet Earth the past 73 years. Where have you been?
One of the things always emphasized in every self defense or Concealed Carry class is that, in a "Duty To Retreat" situation/state, you must be able to do so "safely". Turning your back and trying to "retreat" from an armed attacker, even if they just have a blunt instrument is a crap shoot at best.
The arguments about disparity of force, distance, etc. and of how "Safe" you really were, come up months later in a courtroom.
They want you to call the police, to generate worthless rent seeking jobs for doughnut stuffing, slow shuffling government workers.
Professor Volokh, do you cite any cases in your book from the People's Republic of NJ, where a defendant was imprisoned for using deadly force against an intruder who broke into their home?
Since I live in the People's Republic, this would be a good thing for me to know. My attitude is that I have a gun for protection, but need to know the bounds of the law so I am hard to convict (if it ever comes to that). What case law is there?
Where exactly is that line drawn? Isn't there always an alternative using the 'duty to retreat' law as you articulate it above? What happens when I blow away an intruder because I knew my wife was in another room and in mortal danger, with the intruder was between me and her? Or it was dark and there were too many obstacles to navigate to safely get to an exit (some people have very messy homes - not me!)?
Why have a 2A right if you cannot protect your kith and kin in your own home?
States with a duty to retreat tend to make exceptions when you are in your own home, but I can't speak for New Jersey in particular.
Yeah, I could not find any case law when I consulted with Judge Duck-Duck-Go on any NJ cases where a homeowner blew away a perp in their home, and was subsequently imprisoned.
I am hoping Professor Volokh sees this and responds. I am genuinely curious (and a little anxious, TBH).
In NJ, you will be nitpicked about licensing, about the gun being locked up when not in use, about your background. It will be endless hassles, hearings, fines.
Duty to retreat does not apply in your home in any of the duty to retreat states in the US, including New Jersey
Oh wow....that is a relief = does not apply when you are in your own home
Fire a gun at someone anywhere, you will be subjected to rent seeking, garbage lawyer procedures, investigations, confiscations, litigation, prosecution. It is on purpose, to protect, to privilege, and to empower the good lawyer client, the violent criminal. The lawyer profession is the most powerful cause of crime, along multiple dimensions, from promoting single motherhood, to scam death penalty appellate practice.
New Jersey is pro-criminal to the extreme. The exception is to fine middle class people for the slightest infraction, to generate funds for the Democrat governments. Of course, the people of New Jersey suffer from crime, but they deserve to, for their voting choices.
Diverses suffer most, with rates of violent crime victimization 4 times those of whites. Yet, they keep voting for the party of the lawyer and of the criminal.
Consult a local attorney if you want such specific answers.
Self defense law practically changes with every case that works it way through the courts. Consulting a local attorney with court experience who knows the attitudes of the local police, prosecutors and judges is wise.
IN FLAGRANTE BOOM BOOM
Re: the "intruder between me and my wife"
Which takes us back to the scenario of the intruder / interloper / intercourser on toppo her. Sudden-passion defense anyone when bullet-perforation homodemise caused by concerned or enraged husband upon finding wife in marital bed in engaged in what used to be euphemized as "criminal conversation" with a side piece (paramour)?
Note the "danger" here for the women's choice ueber alles contingent: Possible implicit recognition that the husband might have a legit claim to his wife's exclusive sexual consortium. Or one spouse to the other's and vice versa, to put it in a gender-neutral formulation (which was a thing some time in the past millennium circa 1970's-1980's).
SUDDEN PASSION IN TEXAS & "ORDINARY TEMPERANCE" STANDARD
At punishment, a "defendant may raise the issue as to whether he caused the death under the immediate influence of sudden passion arising from an adequate cause. If the defendant proves the issue in the affirmative by a preponderance of the evidence, the offense is a felony of the second degree." TEX. PENAL CODE. ANN. § 19.02(d).
(1) "Adequate cause" means cause that would commonly produce a degree of anger, rage, resentment, or terror in a person of ordinary temper, sufficient to render the mind incapable of cool reflection.
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.19.htm#19.02
There are a number of states where adultery is illegal, and a few that have heart balm torts permitting a spouse to sue an adterous spouse’s paramour.
North Carolina in particular is notable for its relatively frequent case loads and large damage awards.
It’s definitely still a thing.
"The practical limitation on the duty to comply may be prosecutorial discretion."
And possibly jury nullification, which is related because a prosecutor will be more reluctant to try a losing case.
"Perhaps a demand for begging might so qualify for some people, and other positive demands for still more people."
I'm curious whether this analysis includes considerations of whether you'd rationally believe that complying would remove the threat. A person might reasonably conclude that a demand that you beg for your life or be killed would just lead to you being killed after begging for your life.
Good point. Add to it, "get down on your knees and beg" should be a reasonable red flag that the aggressor wants you in a posture where you'll be least able to fight back/defend.
When I first took the class to be certified as an armed security guard (1991), our instructor asked us a question. "How many of you live in a multistory home where all of the bedrooms are on the second floor or higher. The majority of the class raised their hands. He said that under the current law, if you hear somebody who broke in downstairs and you grab a weapon, go downstairs, and get into an altercation with the person and you kill them, you are going to jail. Under the law at that time, by going downstairs, you provoked the confrontation.
That law has been changed. In the same class the "duty to retreat" was explained. One of the examples given was that if I was in a parking lot that was empty except for one car and I am shot at, I can't go to the car to use if for cover if the car is between me and the shooter. At the time, I thought it was a stupid example because I couldn't retreat "safely" across the open parking lot. Now after reading this, I have to rethink it. I'm beginning that DaivdBehr might have a point.
More rights talk ... Gee
Policywonk speaking here: Have you considered that shoot-first, worry- later results in parents killing their own kids (and other family members, non-strangers) without such intent? By shooting at purpoted intruders through a closed door or such scenarios, or in the dark.
Or mistaking the daughter's sleep-over boyfriend as a mortal threat to the preservation of the teen's virginity.
Have you considered that shoot-first, worry- later results in parents killing their own kids (and other family members, non-strangers) without such intent? By shooting at purpoted intruders through a closed door or such scenarios, or in the dark.
Which is not even remotely close to the sort of situation(s) he was talking about.
It's not about protecting life or property, it's about protecting the fragile male ego, as the title of this post illustrates. "But he embarrassed me!" Fortunately the rest of the developed world has moved on.
You've said a lot of pants-on-head-stupid things here, and I see you're proudly continuing that tradition today.
The basis of a duty to retreat has always been clear. It’s completely rational to regard life as more important than property, so that citizens can be required to give up some property to preserve life.
I would put the duty to retreat in a completely different context than the one Professor Volokh has used. I would compare to the traffic-law duty in all states to yield a right of way to avoid an accident.
After all, a riggt of way is a kind of property. If the principal of justice that people in the weokf deserve to die and its coddling them to get out of the way rather than kill them. people who think a duty to retreat is irrational ought to be willing to deliberately crash into and kill a family of small children because the driver got into the wrong lane or cut them off. How dare that driver steal my right of way! They should get what they deserve!
It seems to me that if you are willing to accept the idea that the law shouldn’t support and defend road rage killings merely because the killers happen to be legally in the right as a matter of traffic law, then you’ve accepted the fundamental principal behind a duty to retreat. And it’s then just a matter of degree, not kind, how far you’re willing to take that principal.
Just a state or locality that really values life over convenience could rationally set speed limits at 5 miles an hour if it wants to or even ban automobiles entirely, a state that really values life over property (and over being in the right) could impose a duty to retreat that encompasses putting up with a much stronger infringement on ones rights and sense of justice than merely having ones right of way unjustly stolen by another driver.
It’s completely rational to do so. If it isn’t rational, then the duty to give up a right of way to avoid an accident - exactly the same principle in kind, just lesser in degree - is also irrational.
"The basis of a duty to retreat has always been clear. It’s completely rational to regard life as more important than property, so that citizens can be required to give up some property to preserve life."
It's perfectly rational to value the liberty of the law abiding more than the lives of criminals, too. It reduces the incentive to behave criminally.
Road rage attacks are irrelevant here, just because somebody cuts you off doesn't mean that ramming them would be in any way self defense. We're discussing how people should respond to threats, here, not offenses that have already taken place.
No, a person who turns at a 4-way stop intersection when you have the right to turn first is a criminal who is stealing your right of way. The fact that you regard this theft as such a minor crime and the other driver as such a minor criminal as to not be worth worrying about is your opinion. And it’s a question of degree, not kind. If the principal behind the duty to retreat were completely irrational, you would be ethically obligated to turn anyway and crash into the guy. Justice would demand it.
No, a person who turns at a 4-way stop intersection when you have the right to turn first is a criminal who is stealing your right of way.
Do you manage to keep a straight face when making asinine arguments like that?
Self-questioning on the path to self-awareness. Progress. Keep it up.
Self-questioning
So you're also so illiterate that you can't understand when a question is directed at you, even when you're own words are quoted back to you as the object of that question?
It's perfectly rational to value the liberty of the law abiding more than the lives of criminals, too. It reduces the incentive to behave criminally.
Bellmore, that expands a right to self-defense into a right to deadly grandiosity. Of course it is not just you. That is a motivation far too widespread among the pro-gun crowd. Wherever it exists it tends to disqualify the person asserting it as a credible candidate to bear arms for self-defense. The first thing that ought to be taught in every self-defense class is, "Your initiative to use deadly force cannot be founded in a personal desire to improve public safety; if you think otherwise you should be barred from gun ownership."
My motivation is that I believe that whether a crime is worth dying over is a question we want people contemplating crimes asking, not their victims.
It's a fairly common attitude, which is why only a small minority of states ARE duty to retreat states.
Bellmore, you already stated your motive. You were more candid the first time.
Stephen, aren't you a lawyer? You are defending your client and your job. You need to disclose your conflict of interest so people may assess your credibility.
Another way to look at it is to look at things before the turn. Perhaps I mispoke by saying you would be crashing into the other person. If your obvious, natural course is to make that turn, then the person who turns against your right of way is threatening to crash into you. It’s that person who’s doing the crashing, not you, you’re just going the natural course the law allows you. That’s attacking you. After all, a car is a deadly weapon. So rather than retreat, which is what yielding the right of way involves, you kill the other driver to prevent the attack.
You staying within your right of way and using deadly force to prevent the other driver from unlawfully entering it and crashing a heavy metal object into you is different in degree from you staying within your home and using desdly force to prevent another person from unlawfully entering it and crashing a heavy metal object into you.
But it’s not different in kind.
Let’s stipulate we have a situation where but for the duty to yield the right of way to avoid an accident, the other person would be considered legally responsible for the accident. The other person here is a criminal who is threatening your life.
You can totally look at things that way.
We’d have a society with a lot more deaths if we did that. But we could. Perhaps the additional justice that comes from the folks in the right not yielding to the criminals in the wrong would be worth it.
I don’t think so. But that’s just my opinion.
"We’d have a society with a lot more deaths"
Each of those deaths would add $2 million of value to the economy each year, as 200 felonies would not be committed for the expected lifespan of the deceased criminal.
But isn't your approach going to encourage reckless driving?
After all, a riggt of way is a kind of property.
Be careful to not pull something with all that stretching you're doing.
The basis of a duty to retreat has always been clear. It’s completely rational to regard life as more important than property, so that citizens can be required to give up some property to preserve life.
What does that have to do with the piece you're responding to?
Self-awareness. A good sign. Maybe this blog is helping.
Everything.
It would appear that the one constant with your comments is how obvious it is that you never bother reading what it is you're commenting on, linking to, etc.
Yet even the Model Penal Code's duty to comply wouldn't require this. Instead, it makes clear that the duty to comply never includes the duty to turn over property (except property demanded under a claim of right, for instance as with repossession of borrowed or mortgaged property). Having to turn over even a modest sum is seen as such an intrusion on liberty—or perhaps on dignity—that you don't lose your right to self-defense by refusing to take that alternative.
I mean, nearly every single time you comment this seems to be the case.
A conditional or vague threat of harm may not be legally actionable. I don't know how the line is drawn.
"She'd better stay away from Andy if she knows what's good for her."
"If I see you dancing with Andy, I'll kill you."
"I saw you dancing with Andy and if I see you again you're dead."
My state would allow a restraining order against one ex for putting the other in fear (Mass. General Laws chapter 209A) but it's harder if Craig is just some guy who imagines himself her boyfriend. There may be a gap where Craig can not be prosecuted, Danielle is not entitled to a restraining order, and Danielle also not allowed to defend herself if she is caught dancing. One would have to do some research to find if any particular state has that gap.
Amen, there are differences among jurisdictions and preemptive court-imposed restraints vs. after-the fact consequences (criminal and/or civil liability, or both) and whatever deterrent effect they may or may not have.
In my state, a restraining order is civil (enforceable as contempt of court if violated) and mutual (injunctive) temporary orders (TOs) are routinely entered in divorce cases involving minor children. Nonmutual injunctions may be sought on application in a contested evidentiary hearing or by agreement of the party to be restrained. These scenarios are governed by the Family Code, but that's not all.
Protective orders are a separate category with different legal consequences. Chapter 7A of the Code of Criminal Procedure authorizes a trial court to issue a protective order "without regard to the relationship between the applicant and the alleged offender" if the trial court finds that the applicant is a victim of certain crimes, including stalking. See Tex. Code Crim. Proc. arts. 7A.01(a)(1), .03.
As for criminal, the relevant offense would presumbly be "terroristic threat". Texas Penal Code 22.07
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.22.htm
My state's criminal stalking law requires three or more acts so a single threat would not be enough.
This duty to comply with a demand (else you lose your right to deadly force when later defending against an attack) smells a lot like a gov't enforced heckler's veto.
Even understanding the law is intended to have people avoid deadly force unless absolutely necessary - not a fan.
Kind of curious whether the duty to retreat states are that way due to legislative choice, or judicial fiat. IIRC, at least in Florida the state supreme court changed the state to duty to retreat, (Claiming that it had always been one.) and it had to be legislatively reversed.
That's interesting.
How does the duty to comply work when the compliance is a right?
"If you speak to others about your political views we will beat your face in and burn your home" is not an unknown statement in human history. Duty to comply (because if you speak you cause harm?), some different outcome not discussed in the article because this is a 1st amendment right and thus the case is different from the examples given like dancing with somebody?
It feels very much like the aggressive individual gets to say, "look what you made me do" and the person harmed by the aggressor is somehow guilty because they made the aggressive individual do something. An inversion of common sense if not of law.
It's a bank robbery in a small town. The robber has ordered the teller and the bank manager (the only folks in the bank, except the robber), into the vault. There is a telephone in the vault, but the bank employees cannot use it because they are held at gunpoint. The bank manager has a concealed pistol under his coat, which the robber has noticed. Intending to disarm the bank manager, the robber orders him to lie down and extend his arms in front of him.
Should the bank manager have a duty to comply, or should he be free to use his personal judgment about the peril of the situation, and come up shooting? What is the most likely outcome of compliance? What is the most likely outcome of going for the gun? On what basis can anyone conclude the bank manager has an ability to discern accurately that a resort to deadly force will increase the safety of the situation, instead of recklessly risking the lives of all 3 people in the vault?
Take the next step. The bank manager is a former Navy Seal, with the training that implies. Does that alter in any way what the legal implications of an attempt to use his gun, if that is what he does? Can it be possible that the Navy Seal has a right to choose deadly force which would be denied to someone with less training and prowess?
On what basis can anyone conclude the bank manager has an ability to discern accurately that a resort to deadly force will increase the safety of the situation, instead of recklessly risking the lives of all 3 people in the vault?
On what basis can anyone conclude that you, the state or anyone else has an ability to accurately predict, without even being in the situation in question, that NOT employing deadly force in self-defense would increase the safety of the 3 people in the vault? (What the voices in your head tell you don't qualify as a rational basis.)
"Should the bank manager have a duty to comply, or should he be free to use his personal judgment about the peril of the situation, and come up shooting?"
My preference is that the bank manager's attention be focused on "What can I do to minimize the harm to the innocents here", not "How can I best ensure the safety of the robber, even at the risk of increasing risk to the innocents". The robber, after all, can drive his risk of being killed while robbing people to zero by the simple expedient of not robbing people. The people being robber don't have that option.
The manager's decisions will of course be subject to review by a jury, but that jury should be asking the same question.
Absaroka, in general terms, do you suppose attempts to shoot the robber are more likely than compliance to assure the safety of innocents? If you do think that, how do you explain why your view diverges from typical bank policies which direct employees to cooperate?
What a nonsensical question. In general terms, should the pilot of a malfunctioning airplane eject or try for an emergency landing? Does it depend, perhaps, on the specifics of the situation?
Robberies are no different. At one end of the spectrum for a simple note job, compliance is likely the safest option. At the other end, for a takeover job where the robber(s) intends to duct tape the employees in the vault, resistance might be safest, depending inter alia on the demeanor of the robber(s), etc, etc, etc.
In either case, we want the pilot or bank manager trying for the solution that minimizes harm to innocents. The pilot might eject, might ride the plane down so it misses the school, or might try to limp to the nearest airport, depending on the specifics. The bank manager might comply or might break a chair over the robber's head, depending on the specifics.
Absaroka, what percentage of bank robberies result in murders of unresisting bank employees, or unresisting bystanders?
What percentage of bank robberies are stopped by armed force with no innocent casualties?
Among bank robberies where everyone complies, what percentage result in no injury or death to innocents?
On a wild guess that the latter question produces by far the largest percentage, on what self-defense basis can anyone justify the notion that armed intervention by a gun-wielding private citizen is wise policy? I do not think you can get there reasonably. See if you can answer on the basis of dispassionate reason, without invoking grandiose guns-improve-society ideology, or romanticizing the prowess and miraculously accurate judgment of a gun toting hero.
"what percentage"
This is where you are going off the rails. When responding to an emergency, whether it is problem in a plane, a patient in the ER, or a violent crime, you respond to the particular facts of the situation you are presented with, not some average situation.
If you are being mugged, you can comply, fight back, or run. Which is optimal depends on a lot of things - if you have a cast on your leg running probably isn't optimal. Whether fighting back will work depends on, inter alia, whether you are an 80 year old granny or a prime-of-life linebacker, etc. It matters whether the guy wants the car, or wants you and the car, etc, etc.
Your concern with averages is misplaced. The law doesn't, and shouldn't require people to deal with some hypothetical median crime; it looks at, and should look at the actual facts of the specific crime at hand.
Absaroka, before you invoke the magic of specific hypotheticals, please try to deal with general expectations. Policy cannot be about specific cases. Gun wielding cannot be policy free.
I am trying to discover—and you are trying to evade disclosing—how big a statistical disparity you think the magic of specific hypotheticals can reasonably bridge.
In my first comment I mentioned Navy Seal training. That was a way to anticipate what I knew would be coming back—some kind of reliance on prowess and individual initiative. You obliged me on that, but ignored the question.
The Navy Seal is a reasonable stand-in for the maximum values you can reasonably expect for those personal qualities and trained skills which are doing all the work in your responses. So at least answer the Navy Seal question. Here it is again:
Can it be possible that the Navy Seal has a right to choose deadly force which would be denied to someone with less training and prowess?
"Policy cannot be about specific cases."
The law is very much about specific cases.
I'm a little mystified what you think the law should be. You seem to be fishing for something like 'on the average, running away from a mugger is the best policy, therefore if a mugging victim with a broken leg chooses to hit the mugger with his crutch instead of running away, we'll prosecute the victim for not choosing the strategy that is statistically optimum, even though suboptimal for the actual situation at hand'. Or something.
Even for you that seems like a silly argument, although it's hard to be sure what your argument actually is. Perhaps you would be better served by stating what you are actually advocating, instead of the playing cryptic twenty questions?
Also, bank robberies are no different than malfunctioning airplanes? Seriously?
Time and again I ask you for your answers to specific context-dependent questions. Time and again I get back squid-ink context changes in the form of outlandish analogies. Unrelated analogies cannot be dispositive of real questions with real context. At some point you have to get rid of the analogies, and at least venture to answer the questions.
"The Model Penal Code captures the standard definition well: Even in defending against threat of death or serious bodily harm, deadly force may not be used if "the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating.""
However, Brown v. United States, 256 U.S. 335 (1921) held that if a person is attacked and reasonably believes that he is in immediate danger of death or grievous bodily harm, he has no duty to retreat and has the option to stand his ground and defend himself even to the death of his attacker.
"Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife. Therefore, in this Court, at least, it is not a condition of immunity that one in that situation should pause to consider whether a reasonable man might not think it possible to fly with safety or to disable his assailant rather than to kill him." -- Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Junior.
Among the modern day cases that led to current "Stand Your Ground" laws, one included a battered woman who retreated to the bathroom and locked the door; her batterer broke down the door and she shot him dead. The prosecution maintained she had the duty to safely retreat by climbing out a small second-story bathroom window and dropping to the ground outside.
We all kind of know that the circumstances where you use deadly force today are judged by identity and political ideology. Not really the law.
Rittenhouse charged and thankfully acquitted
Chauvin charged and convicted
Byrd not charged or even interviewed by investigators.
So yea there are laws but how they are enforced or interpreted who knows.
The penchant for hypotheticalizing from the comforts of armchair or couch
Re: "The bank manager has a concealed pistol under his coat."
That goes to the real policy question here in the plotted fact scenario, and it involves planning/premeditation on the part of the would-be shooter.
First: Is that lawful (a question of public policy/law in the relevant jurisdiction), and if so, should the bank arm its managers (as opposed to hiring an armed security guard) by way of good business practice? Bottom line: Does it help or potentially hurt the bottom line?
So, assuming it's a legal option, is it a good way to run and protect a retail business? Even assuming there is a benefit from having the means to kill a robber at the ready, what are the countervailing risks and liabilities of accidental shootings in the workplace and collateral homicide or personal injury by stray bullets? And again, workers comp/commercial insurance implications if employees are harmed, rather than just cash taken?
How is a posited personal "right" not to mention a "duty" to resist even relevant to these considerations from the perspective of business owner and managers?
WPHDM, please help me understand what we gain by shifting the analysis from a public perspective to a management perspective.
WPHDM, please help me understand
What would he waste his time attempting a feat that has been valiantly attempted, without success, by countless others before him?
It's obviously relevant if you are the business (own a restaurant, for example), or in it (as a front house manager), or if you are the go-to attorney for the retail business on an ongoing basis (before something bad happens, dispensing advice on legal risk exposure and how to avoid getting sued by reducing chances of incidence that might give rise to liability in the first place).
In the fifth paragraph, is the construction [s]he really necessary?
Just to be clear, "[s]he" means (following standard legal style) "the original source says 'he,' but for our purposes we're changing that to 'she.'" Since in our hypo Danielle is a woman, but the source I'm quoting (a statute) uses "he," I think I need to include the "[s]."
Yet another break from reality for the lawyer dunderhead. Males are involved in crime, females rarely so, 10:1.
Who is the dunderhead here?
Justice is supposed to be dispensed on an individual basis, not based on statistical preponderance patterns and disparities on account of sex, or race, or other invidious criteria.
As for statutory construction and application to cases and controversies, including actions brought by the State against individuals, the personal pronoun "he" (if still used) is construed as including the "she" and the "it", if applicable.
The gender-neutral noun for people doing stuff that its prohibited is "the actor".
See, e.g., Texas Code Construction Act, codified as GOV'T CODE chapter 311.
Sec. 311.012. TENSE, NUMBER, AND GENDER.
(a) Words in the present tense include the future tense.
(b) The singular includes the plural and the plural includes the singular.
(c) Words of one gender include the other genders.
"Actor" means a person whose criminal responsibility is in issue in a criminal action. Whenever the term "suspect" is used in this code, it means "actor." Tex. Gov't Code Sec. 1.07 (a)(2)
File under: Law 101
Tags: Inane Questions Presented (Does the law apply to women?)
Correction: the "actor" definition is from the Penal Code, not the Code Construction Act. https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.1.htm
Thanks for the explanation.