The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
NPR Issues A "Clarification," Not A "Correction" on #Maskgate (Updated)
Perhaps the one silver lining of this mess is that the media will be less likely to publish leaks from SCOTUS.
I am sick of #Maskgate. You are sick of #Maskgate. The Justices are sick of #Maskgate. Alas, there is more #Maskgate.
Thursday evening, NPR's public editor wrote an essay titled "NPR reporting on Supreme Court mask controversy merits clarification." The subtitle was, "An inaccurate verb choice made the reporting unclear." This article comes 24 hours after Nina Totenberg boasted that NPR stood by her reporting.
NPR stands by my reportinghttps://t.co/eEtiNgMQet
— Nina Totenberg (@NinaTotenberg) January 19, 2022
At this point, the only redeeming value of this exchange is to reflect on how the media operates.
Tuesday morning, Nina Totenberg include this tidbit in her published report about the "Scorpions" on the Supreme Court:
Now, though, the situation had changed with the omicron surge, and according to court sources, Sotomayor did not feel safe in close proximity to people who were unmasked. Chief Justice John Roberts, understanding that, in some form asked the other justices to mask up.
Tuesday afternoon, Nina offered slightly different remarks on a live broadcast:
But now with the omicron surge, the situation had changed. And according to court sources, Sotomayor didn't feel safe in close proximity to people who were unmasked. So Chief Justice John Roberts, understanding that, in some form or other suggested that the other justices mask up.
You see the difference? First, Totenberg said "in some form asked." Second, Totenberg said "in some form or another suggested." There is a huge difference between the Chief asking, and the Chief suggesting.
Now, the NPR public editor says the use of "asked" was "misleading."
Totenberg's story merits a clarification, but not a correction. After talking to Totenberg and reading all justices' statements, I believe her reporting was solid, but her word choice was misleading.
I have no idea what the difference is between a "clarification" and a "correction."
The public editor offered this explanation from Totenberg:
Exactly how did Roberts, in some form, ask or suggest that his colleagues cover up? Totenberg told me she hedged on this: "If I knew exactly how he communicated this I would say it. Instead I said 'in some form.' "
That phrasing is at the core of the dispute. Totenberg said she has multiple, solid sources familiar with the inner workings of the court who told her that Roberts conveyed something to his fellow justices about Sotomayor's concerns in the face of the omicron wave.
What did Roberts convey? Totenberg does not know. How did Roberts convey the message? Totenberg does not know. What a thin reed to stand on.
The more prudent approach would be to say nothing at all. These unsourced leaks are inherently unreliable--especially with so few corroborating facts. Here is the advice given by the public editor:
Totenberg and her editors should have chosen a word other than "asked." And she could have been clear about how she knew there was subtle pressure to wear masks (the nature or even exact number of her anonymous sources) and what she didn't know (exactly how Roberts was communicating).
I also did not realize that Twitter flagged Totenberg's story as "potentially false." She got the Trump treatment!
NPR got a black eye here.
In the absence of a clarification, NPR risks losing credibility with audience members who see the plainly worded statement from Roberts and are forced to go back to NPR's story and reconcile the nuances of the verb "asked" when in fact, it's not a nuanced word. . . .
The disconnect between the story and Chief Justice Roberts' statement is concerning to many NPR listeners and readers who wrote to us. . . . .
The way NPR's story was originally worded, news consumers must choose between believing the chief justice or believing Totenberg. A clarification improving on the verb choice that describes the inner workings of the court would solve that dilemma.
Ouch.
Meanwhile, there have been no updates posted on Ariane de Vogue's articles. Her claims were somewhat different.
Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor has been listening to arguments remotely from her chambers because she doesn't feel comfortable sitting on the bench near colleagues who are not masked, including Justice Neil Gorsuch, according to a source familiar with the situation. . . .
At the beginning of the term, Sotomayor wore a mask on the bench at many cases. Another source familiar with the situation said that after Omicron surged, Sotomayor expressed her concerns to Chief Justice John Roberts. The source said she did not directly ask Gorsuch to wear a mask. She has participated remotely during arguments this month.
What do I make of all this? Sotomayor expressed her concern to the Chief, and the Chief "suggested" somehow that others should wear a mask. Maybe by saying he would mask up himself.
I hope this controversy ends. Perhaps the one silver lining of this mess is that the media will be less likely to publish leaks from SCOTUS.
Update: I wish this controversy was over, but it's not. And I realize I made an error. NPR did not issue a clarification of any sort. The public editor, who is independent of the news department said NPR should issue a clarification. But NPR did on such thing.
And, Nina Totenberg spoke to the Daily Beast about the independent editor.
The public editor, Kelly McBride, who operates independently of the newsroom but takes a paycheck from the publication, called for a "clarification, but not a correction" to an article about the Supreme Court written by one of the newsroom's "founding mothers," legal affairs correspondent Nina Totenberg.
"She can write any goddamn thing she wants, whether or not I think it's true," Totenberg told The Daily Beast on Thursday night. "She's not clarifying anything!"
Totenberg laughed, and added: "I haven't even looked at it, and I don't care to look at it because I report to the news division, she does not report to the news division."
…
But in her own telephone conversation with The Daily Beast, Totenberg—a towering presence at NPR who has been there since 1975—responded to McBride, the justices, and general criticism of her story.
"A non-denial denial from two of them doesn't work," Totenberg said, referring to the statement from Sotomayor and Gorsuch. As to Roberts, she said, "the other just refuses to accept the fact that I did not say that he requested that people do anything, but in some form did."
"I have got nothing to say, except that I am sticking by my reporting," Totenberg said, while eating dinner. "I think it is absolutely valid."
And NPR is still standing behind Nina:
A spokesperson for NPR told The Daily Beast late Thursday that "we stand behind Nina Totenberg's reporting." The NPR official added: "The public editor is independent and does not speak for NPR."
Again, I think Totenberg's problem was running the story in the first place. Someone, somewhere, told her something happened. What exactly Nina does not know. The failure to get any corroborating details was reason enough to let the story die. Now, I hope #Maskgate dies.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
" At this point, the only redeeming value of this exchange is to reflect on how the media operates. "
Professor Blackman writes for a shit-rate, polemical publication with neither editors nor apparent standards. He seems incapable of jumping high enough to reach a legitimate journalism operation's ankles even momentarily.
"Professor Blackman writes for a shit-rate, polemical publication with neither editors nor apparent standards."
Lol you're either bitching about their lack of standards or bitching that they have standards when they delete your comments.
Partisan, hypocritical, viewpoint-driven censorship is not associated with any professional standard.
Other than that, though, great comment!
Except that every single person here including you knows that it didn't happen. That you invent even more and more elaborate stories about it, fabricating new details each time, just makes you pathetic.
Do you wonder why Prof. Volokh doesn't dispute my accounts of the censorship, particularly when I identify the times of the e-mails with which he imposed the censorship?
Do you wonder why you declare them falsehoods when Prof. Volokh does not, despite ample opportunity and my request that he correct the record if appropriate?
I do not wonder. Like me, Prof. Volokh has the e-mails.
You are a liar, Nieporent, just another sycophantic right-wing loser prancing around in garish, unconvincing libertarian drag. waiting to be replaced by your betters.
If I am wrong about any of this, Prof. Volokh should deny my assertions and attempt to clear the record. But he won't, because, as I have noted with specificity, we both have the e-mails. (Prof. Volokh also expressly bragged about his partisan, hypocritical censorship of me publicly on at least two occasions.)
Carry on, clingers. Keep striving to reach mainstream ankles for a nip or two, including mine. It is good sport for all. Plus, it may briefly take your minds off your deplorable lives and your failures in the culture war.
"Do you wonder why Prof. Volokh doesn't dispute my accounts of the censorship, particularly when I identify the times of the e-mails with which he imposed the censorship?"
For the same reason folks don't argue with homeless people who scream at them in the street?
I prefer to think it is because he has integrity. He knows he did it. He is disinclined to lie about it.
Or maybe he doesn't want to bet his mainstream gig on the reliability of my hard drive(s). I could readily disprove any assertion that I have misstated the record. He knows it.
But it isn't because Prof. Volokh likes leaving Nieporent hanging in the wind -- like a sad, broken windchime -- unnecessarily or unfairly. Prof. Volokh doesn't try to rescue Nieporent because he can't rescue Nieporent from Nieporent's lies, and he knows it.
I think Nieporent knows it, too. He just can't stop lashing out reflexively against a culture war winner.
AK is both a clown and useful idiot. He will talk about some new leftwing paradise that is coming like he is a guitar toting, Come To Jesus preacher, warning those who dare hold contrary ideas that their judgement day is coming. All while alluding to people being forced, presumably against their will and through coercive means, to accept these beliefs warning that they are being tolerated now but will not be in the future.
After spitting all of this fire and brimstone, he will make some hateful statements about people on the basis of race, sex, gender, and nationality while closing with another threat of compliance.
Repeat this clown show in every thread at least 2-3 times, and you get clown world.
I do not contend that anyone should accept any beliefs they do not wish to accept. People are entitled to believe as they wish. They should be entitled to believe as they wish.
"Now, the NPR public editor says the use of "asked" was "misleading."
This may or may not be true, but the problem is that Totenberg doesn't know what verb would be better, because she doesn't know what her story is. She should have kept quiet.
And there's another way the story doesn't make sense. AFAIK the justices sit in order of seniority by tradition, but is that set in stone? If Totenberg's claims were correct, why couldn't the problem be solved with a little seating shuffle?
Totenberg's response to the public editor:
“She can write any goddam thing she wants, whether or not I think it’s true,” Totenberg told The Daily Beast on Thursday night. “She’s not clarifying anything!”
Totenberg laughed, and added: “I haven’t even looked at it, and I don’t care to look at it because I report to the news division, she does not report to the news division.”
Totenberg seems nice.
A clown show for the clown world we live in....
Send in the clowns....oh they are already here....
Are you saying the disaffected wingnuts masquerading in silly, unconvincing libertarian drag around here are clowns?
I usually see them as intolerant fossils, but clowns fits, too.
More 4chan nonsense.
Yeah lots of nonsense here....
Point out the fact that this whole thing has turned into a clown show..
AK shows up to prove your point...
Then Sarc with his classic handwaving weights in...
Clown world, indeed.
"No one has challenged the broader focus of Totenberg's original story, which asserts that the justices in general are not getting along well."
Except the two justices at the core of the article.
I'm sure NPR will clarify that post haste.
Read the public editor statement, which Blackman quoted but doesn't seem to have linked:
https://www.npr.org/sections/publiceditor/2022/01/20/1074540207/npr-reporting-on-supreme-court-mask-controversy-merits-clarification
There is no real inconsistency, just lack of clarity. (From the Justices as well, IMO)
The "lack of clarity" comes from the fact that NPR and Totenberg don't know what actually happened.
The public editor said that Totenberg made a misleading verb choice, but they don't know if it's misleading, or what verb would be better, because they don't know what their story is.
And the Justices are denying the story. I'm not sure how you expect them to be clear when Totenberg can't be.
Sarcastr0 defending an exercise in bullshit-peddling. Gee, there's a surprise.
If you were sick of it you didn't have to write all that and post it.
"A touch! A palpable touch!"
Less useful, less humor.
It's really funny how so many commenters take so much time and effort telling Josh he is wasting their time.
That’s the funny part. The sad part is that anyone pays to attend South Texas College of Law Houston. I feel sorry for every one of those poor souls, although consequences are part of poor decisions.
""If I knew exactly how he communicated this I would say it. Instead I said 'in some form.' ""
If she didn't know what, if anything, the Chief Justice said, she had no business writing about what, if anything, the Chief Justice said. That's the take away here: She's writing stories based, at best, on unreliable rumors, and she doesn't see why that's wrong to do.
That's a curious standard. If a journalist knows the substance of what someone said, but not the words they used, they can't write about it? You do understand the difference between quoting and paraphrasing, right?
She apparently didn't even know the substance, since everyone involved has contradicted the story.
Brett, did you read NPR's statement? Because you're not right about this.
Yeah, I've read the statement. They're calling it a lack of clarity, I think that's too generous. One of the messages they got from a reader that they cited in the statement sums it up for me:
"And Jesus Magallanes wrote, "I saw the 'in some form' part as a justification for standing by the reporting but there's no explanation why that is. A request, regardless of the form it came in, is a request, correct? In order for the story to be true as NPR first reported, Roberts would've had to have asked 'in some form,' but he said he didn't, full stop."
Then they say, "No one has challenged the broader focus of Totenberg's original story, which asserts that the justices in general are not getting along well."
Except that the justices themselves directly contradicted that, as well. And not ambiguously, they flat out contradicted it.
This is not about a lack of clarity. It's about an anonymously sourced story that is contradicted on the record by the principals involved in it. Clearly contradicted.
"Brett, did you read NPR's statement? Because you're not right about this."
You're not even right about there being an NPR statement. NPR stands by Totenberg's reporting.
So does the Public Editor.
You didn't read that either, did you?
Lol.
The public editor says the reporting needs clarification.
Totenberg and NPR say that the public editor needs to go fuck herself.
And you just gaslight along.
NPR didn't say that.
And I don't much care about a Daily Beast gossip either.
And the Public Editor said nothing about the reporting being wrong, just about the writeup's phrasing.
You keep changing Brett's thesis for one you'd prefer to argue for. And then calling me names.
Do better.
You keep changing Brett's thesis for one you'd prefer to argue for.
Do better.
ROFLMAO!!!!
"NPR didn't say that."
They said that in some form, by declining to clarify the article.
"And the Public Editor said nothing about the reporting being wrong, just about the writeup's phrasing."
They said it was inaccurate. You're living in the space between wrong and inaccurate now?
"You keep changing Brett's thesis for one you'd prefer to argue for. And then calling me names."
Brett's thesis is that Totenberg doesn't know the substance of what she is reporting. Which she has admitted to, and it's causing her to be unable to write a clear article.
"Brett's thesis is that Totenberg doesn't know the substance of what she is reporting. Which she has admitted to, and it's causing her to be unable to write a clear article."
the justices themselves directly contradicted that, as well. And not ambiguously, they flat out contradicted it.
This is not about a lack of clarity. It's about an anonymously sourced story that is contradicted on the record by the principals involved in it. Clearly contradicted.
You are bad at this.
"the justices themselves directly contradicted that, as well. And not ambiguously, they flat out contradicted it."
Lol. Also correct. So what? You are bad at gaslighting, but you keep doing it.
If a journalist knows the substance of what someone said
That hypothetical falls apart when all of the parties that are the subject of the report say that the "journalist" is full of shit.
" If a journalist knows the substance of what someone said, but not the words they used, they can't write about it?"
They have to know enough about the substance to be able to write a clear article, to vouch that the source is accurately conveying what was said, and to have an understanding of how it plays into the larger story. None of that seems true here.
Come on Brett, are you saying that if Nina has an impeccable source that told her what Sandra might have told John who might have told Neil who might have not cared then she shouldn't run with it?
The only thing I'm worried about is someone might decide it's not worth telling Nina anything anymore because it makes almost everyone look bad, most especially Nina.
By the way isn't Nina getting as old as a supreme court justice these days?
Yikes, she's 77, isn't that almost Biden's age? That explains a lot, including the swearing when she gets questioned.
Totenberg said she has multiple, solid sources familiar with the inner workings of the court who told her that Roberts conveyed something to his fellow justices about Sotomayor's concerns in the face of the omicron wave.
Y'all want to go off on what a bad reporter she is because she said 'asked in some form' and not some other phrase, go for it I guess.
But seems to me this is not going to be anything people who aren't looking for a fight are going to find really controversial anymore. She could have done better, but neither was she lying or making things up as some on here have insisted was totally true.
Perhaps her "multiple, solid sources, familiar with the inner workings of the court" were lying or making things up, then?
The last half decade has seen a remarkable number of reports based on 'anonymous sources', that end up contradicted on the record by named people present. I seem to recall that there was one solitary case in there where the reporter actually burned their source after realizing they'd been lied to. (Which is the flip side of the promise of anonymity if you tell the truth.)
The rest just casually stuck with their 'anonymous sources'.
At this point, why does anyone take seriously news reports premised on anonymous sources?
There was a momentary fad discouraging the use of anonymous sources, with a fallback of explaining why the sources were not named. That was quickly replaced by "not named because they are not authorized to publicly discuss the matter", and then discarded entirely. Ah well, the average reporter is no smarter now than when Ben Rhodes observed that they literally know nothing.
It seems pretty clear at this point she was not making anything up.
Really? I'd say that at this point it's clear somebody was making up all the stuff that mattered, everything that wasn't publicly observable. Needn't have been her, of course, but she's awfully blase about having been misled by a source.
Nope. You haven't read the public editor's analysis, I take it. There is no inconsistency alleged.
Despite what Blackman implied.
No, I have read the public editor's analysis, and I find it disingenuous. The story has been directly and unambiguously contradicted by the people involved, on basically every point that wasn't publicly observable. Yeah, Sotomayor wasn't present, and Gorsuch wasn't wearing a mask, and that seems to have been the only thing they got right.
"There is no inconsistency alleged."
Huh? You're living in the space between "requested", "asked in some way", and "suggested in some way"?
That's a cozy piece of real estate.
Brett is alleging factual inaccuracies in the sources. That's absolutely not established.
Check out his comment above, where he has doubled down. It was over half an hour before your comment here, I don't know how you missed it.
"Brett is alleging factual inaccuracies in the sources."
Yeah, so are the justices. On the record.
Hey, who are you going to believe? A left-wing agenda-driven "journalist" and her unnamed "sources", or the subjects of the story, every one of which have publicly declared that story to be bullshit?
What they say seems to integrate fine with the public editor's semantics take.
No reporting inaccuracies are required for everyone's stories to agree.
"What they say seems to integrate fine with the public editor's semantics take."
The only way they integrate fine is if there's an ambiguity between "requested" and "asked in some way" which there isn't in this context.
The public editor says that the reporting is unclear, but she doesn't say what would be clearer, so here interpretation doesn't "integrate fine" with anything.
And don't forget that Sotomayor and Gorsuch have said that the reporting is false. Now, you may not like the way that they characterized the reporting, but to suggest that they mischaracterized it in order to deny the mischaracterization but not the actual reporting is a little much.
The public editor says that the reporting is unclear, but she doesn't say what would be clearer, so here interpretation doesn't "integrate fine" with anything.
Your second clause doesn't follow from your first at all here.
The lack of clarity allows for a version of events where no one said anything untrue.
It's like you realized your parsing games aren't cutting it so you've resorted to just saying stuff that doesn't scan logically in the hopes of distracting.
Sotomayor and Gorsuch have said that the reporting is false
They said some reporting was false. I took that as other reports misinterpreting the unclear NPR story. Which, again, allows everyone to be telling the truth.
You're really committed to an outcome you can't actually get to, and it's making you silly.
"The lack of clarity allows for a version of events where no one said anything untrue."
The "lack of clarity" suggests that "asked in some way" is unclear, and that it's possible to reconcile that with "did not request".
I'm not the one engaging in parsing games.
And Totenberg doesn't agree that her story is unclear.
"You're really committed to an outcome you can't actually get to, and it's making you silly."
Lol, the outcome is that Totenberg doesn't know what happened, which she's admitted. It's possible that everybody involved is telling the truth, and the truth is somewhere in some tiny linguistic ambiguity.
It's also possible that either the justices or the source is lying.
The problem is that NPR and Totenberg don't know which it is, because they don't know what their story is.
Trying to defend this is making you look silly.
Sarcastr0, Ms. Totenburg wrote: "Chief Justice John Roberts, understanding that, in some form asked the other justices to mask up. They all did. Except Gorsuch, who, as it happens, sits next to Sotomayor on the bench. His continued refusal since then has also meant that Sotomayor has not attended the justices' weekly conference in person, joining instead by telephone."
The justices in question state: "Reporting that Justice Sotomayor asked Justice Gorsuch to wear a mask surprised us. It is false. While we may sometimes disagree about the law, we are warm colleagues and friends"
The Chief Justice stated: "I did not request Justice Gorsuch or any other Justice to wear a mask on the bench"
Given the public interest in the story, you'd think an experienced reporter (decades of experience, Sarcastr0, not some newbie reporter) would be really, really careful before asserting things about a sitting SCOTUS justice. I mean, Ms. Totenburg has years and years of experience. I have read her stories for years. I won't get into possible motivated reasoning behind the reporting; just check the corpus of her social media accounts.
The fact is, Totenburg's reporting was wrong, and it was false.
Look, I get that reporters can make mistakes. Sources can lie, exaggerate, embellish; they often do. People are human, they make mistakes. Instead of trying to weasel out with mealy-mouthed nuance, why not be forthright and simply own what you wrote and say you got it wrong? That deliberate avoidance of accountability is what makes people so cynical, lose trust and respect. NPR is a publicly funded venture, the executive management of NPR should think long and hard about that (being forthright). To me, that is an additional leadership and judgment issue.
Ms. Totenburg has a long, distinguished reporting career. She has a track record spanning decades. Truly, I would like to chalk this one up to an unforced error on her part. If Ms. Totenburg issued a statement along the lines of: Whoops, got that totally wrong - sorry about that - and here is what I'll do not to have that happen again. I could understand and respect that, and move on. Yeah, I might roll my eyes a little, but I would also remember that she owned her mistake. That would make me respect her even more. I am Ok when people make mistakes, own them, and fix them; that is just human life. I suspect most people feel the same way I do and I bet you do too, Sarcastr0.
The other aspect I find troubling is the damage to the institution (SCOTUS). The story created a negative impression of SCOTUS, undeservedly. This point in American history is really bad timing for that (wrongly/mistakenly creating a negative impression) to happen. The last thing we need is for more heat to be added to already hot water, and that is what has happened.
https://www.npr.org/sections/publiceditor/2022/01/20/1074540207/npr-reporting-on-supreme-court-mask-controversy-merits-clarification
Yeah, an inaccurate and misleading verb choice. 🙂
In my world, we call that false (and potentially lying, depending on the evidence [see statements above by Justices]).
What do they call inaccurate and misleading verb choices in your world, Sarcastr0?
Nuance! Or they call it an opportunity to say "Let me be clear".
Unclear, yes.
I might even go so far as to say false, because until Adler highlighted it, I didn't see the nuanced parsing there.
But not an intentional lie, certainly not some fiction NPR made up for partisan reasons, as many on here are eagerly insisting.
The link you provided specifically stated the main thrust of the story was to highlight and dramatize differences on the Court.
In my world, partisans highlight and dramatize differences.
What do you call that in your world, Sarcastr0?
I can't tell what you're saying. Are you saying there are no differences?
Or that the lack of clarity must have been intentional because Totenberg is a partisan? Because that's pure speculation.
I can't tell what you're saying.
You're a bottomless pit of bullshit.
"Or that the lack of clarity must have been intentional because Totenberg is a partisan?"
The lack of clarity is due to the fact that Totenberg doesn't know what her story is.
But she's reporting it anyway because she is a partisan.
There is plenty of story there without the specific method by which Roberts communicated about masks.
Not really. In context, Roberts' claim that the didn't request the justices to wear masks is fairly broad, so we're left to speculate that maybe he made some sort of subtler suggestion, where we can just as easily infer the Gorsuch didn't get the hint as we can that the refused.
But until someone writes a clearer story, we, like Totenberg, really have no idea what happened.
Did you not read the original story either?! This masking thing was the hook, not the whole story.
https://www.npr.org/2022/01/18/1073428376/supreme-court-justices-arent-scorpions-but-not-happy-campers-either
You are really showing your ass today.
"Did you not read the original story either?! This masking thing was the hook, not the whole story."
No shit, Sherlock. If they can't even get the hook right...
Not to mention that Gorsuch and Sotomayor denied the meat of the larger story.
And stop visualizing my ass.
S_O,
There is no story.
Just admit it and move on.
Nina needed some attention. we all do at times.
" In my world, "
Intolerant, obsolete, disaffected clinger world.
You clingers aren't fit to nip at NPR's ankles.
Note that Totenberg disagrees that it needs clarification and NPR stands by her reporting. The public editor doesn't speak for NPR.
There are several problems with the story:
1. Totenberg wasn't able to accurately describe what happened because she doesn't know what happened, and she's not in a position to assess whether or not her sources are reasonably conveying what happened.
2. Several inferences appear to be being made. There's an inference that Gorsuch "refused" Robert's ask, but since we don't know what was asked and how it was asked we don't know if we can't determine to what extent there was a refusal, and we can't determine to what extent the refusal cause Sotomayor to work in her chamber.
After all, it's a bizarre story which, if true, seems like it could have been fixed by a change in seating assignments.
1. is a thing for every reporter with an inside source.
2. is only true if you ignore the unclear language and take it as initially parsed. Which I don't think is fair given subsequent clarifications.
You're reaching again.
You're reaching again.
That's pretty funny coming from someone who routinely engages in such extreme contortions that his head spends so much time up his own ass.
Let me break it out for you in language a child could understand, Simple Simon:
- She reported unfounded allegations in an attempt to portray SCOTUS as a disfunctional entity, and Gorsuch as an evil, selfish prick.
- Everyone who was the subject of those allegations has publicly said that the allegations are bullshit.
- She continues to claim that her story is correct, with the unavoidable implication being that the justices involved are lying.
But keep on babbling about clarifications and other song-and-dance horseshit.
"- She continues to claim that her story is correct, with the unavoidable implication being that the justices involved are lying."
Yup. As I said below, this is a problem with anonymous sourcing.
If you use on the record sourcing, i.e. "Justice Thomas says that Justice Gorsuch farted during a conference." then when Gorsuch says, "No I didn't." then at least you are covering an evolving controversy between third parties, which is OK as a journalist.
But if you report, "Justice Gorsuch farted during a conference." and Gorsuch says, "No I didn't.", then you are still covering a controversy between third parties, but you have inserted yourself as a stand-in for one of the parties, which is not where you want to be as a journalist.
But if you report, "Justice Gorsuch farted during a conference." and Gorsuch says, "No I didn't."
Even better, every justice who was in the room says, "No he didn't."
Then you'll hear....Those who denied it, supplied it. 🙂
"1. is a thing for every reporter with an inside source."
No it's not. If you don't know what the source means, you ask.
If the whole anecdote is just something she's regurgitating from a source, she's being a shitty reporter.
She says it was corroborated by more than one source. NPR backs her up on that.
But 'she's not in a position to assess...' seems something everyone dealing with an inside source will have to deal with.
"She says it was corroborated by more than one source. NPR backs her up on that."
Just because two people regurgitate the same line doesn't make the info credible. She needs to be able to vet the source enough to vouch for the fact that the source knows what he's talking about, and it's hard to see how she did that if she doesn't understand the facts enough to write a clear story.
Yeah, corroboration isn't a thing that effects credibility.
it's hard to see how she did that if she doesn't understand the facts enough to write a clear story
Except she did. She used an ambiguous word, but the main story remains. Gorsuch still sucks.
"Yeah, corroboration isn't a thing that effects credibility."
So you're disagreeing with my statement, and saying the two people regurgitating the same line makes the info credible? Talk about showing your ass.
"She used an ambiguous word."
No she didn't. "Ask" is not a particularly ambiguous word. But she has telegraphed that perhaps "ask" is not the correct word, but she doesn't know a better one.
"Gorsuch still sucks."
So now you're shitting on Sotomayor for her taste in friends?
If multiple sources corroborated, surely one of them had some inkling of how this supposed request was made. Otherwise, how do they even know the request was made? Clerk pool rumor mill? If that's the case, Totenberg reported hearsay within unsourced hearsay, at which point we're literally dealing with National Enquirer-level gossip, not serious political journalism.
There's nothing wrong with using anonymous sources in your reporting, but when the principals of the story directly contradict your narrative on the record, you have to show some kind of receipts. I'm sorry but "Nuh uh, I heard from somebody who heard from somebody that you're lying" is not good enough to make me believe you over the Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court.
Here's the thing, though: she cited sources "familiar with the inner workings of the court." One thing reporters are very careful about is the wording of how they describe anonymous sources. She did not say "sources familiar with the events in question" (or, as I now see above that another reporter used, "sources familiar with the situation.") Her choice of phrasing means, in reporterspeak, that they were not familiar with these specific events, which means they were supplying thirdhand claims to her. (I say thirdhand, because "familiar with" already means secondhand. When you're merely "familiar with" something, it's because someone told you.)
The problem vanishes if you translate "anonymous source" to "fabrication." I've been doing that with news sources for many years. It leaves me with much less news worthy of belief.
This is like when people talk about the media being corporate owned, except for when it's a story they like.
Anonymous sources are part of how facts get reported these days. I It is not possible to just assume they're all lying and functionally understand news in anything like a contemporary manner.
You don't have to assume they are all lying. I don't assume that everybody who hangs around bullshitting at the bar or the gym or the water-cooler is lying either, but the stuff you hear about there certainly isn't reliable.
"Anonymous sources are part of how facts get reported these days," ergo they're accurate... is terrible reasoning.
Read the comment I was replying to. You substituted a new thesis, and then took out that strawman.
"Anonymous sources are part of how facts get reported these days."
Anonymous sources are part of how little people respect media.
And this happens all the time to reporters who rely on anonymous sources, they get painted onto one side of a controversial situation. Here, Totenberg is stuck defending her sourcing against on the record denials by the principals. If she had on-the-record sources, this wouldn't be a problem.
Remember when CNN got stuck on Warren's side of a Bernie-Warren he-said/she-said? It made their debate moderation performance look very one-sided.
All the time, except when it doesn't.
This is part of the reporting world. It has been for ages.
There are best practices on how to use them - like getting multiple corroborating sources like happened here. But they're not going away, and you don't really want them to.
There are best practices on how to use them
Is sticking to the story even after the subjects of that story all say those sources are full of shit one of those "best practices"?
"This is part of the reporting world. It has been for ages."
Anybody who is part of the reporting world understands that standards involving anonymous sources have been slipping. Anonymity used to be a rare exception to standards requiring that sourcing be on the record.
Anybody who is part of the reporting world understands that standards involving anonymous sources have been slipping.
Got a source for that? Numbers? Or are you bullshitting and appealing to made up authority?
I'm certainly not expecting you to believe it on my say-so. If you know about reporting, you'd already know it.
So nothing but fallacies then.
"The problem vanishes if you translate "anonymous source" to "fabrication."
Exactly.
This is a good way of signaling that you don't have much familiarity with the news in the first place.
Omit anonymous sources, and you find yourself with no knowledge of what's happening under repressive regimes or any idea of what might be behind the cynical and self-serving public statements of politicians and executives. You end up believing every Zuckerberg lie while disregarding internal disputes at Facebook. You end up trying to make sense of the CDC's strategy on COVID without understanding the internal political forces that are pushing in different directions. In short, you just don't understand the world. You take everything at its face value, like a child.
Look, there's nothing wrong with viewing reporting based on anonymous sources with a skeptical eye. We should view all reporting with a healthy skepticism and awareness of bias. But there are different kinds of anonymous sources, and different reasons for anonymity, and the only way to really assess them properly is to read the news over time and see what comes to fruition. A lot of the NYTimes' reporting on "bad strikes" in Syria and Afghanistan was based on anonymous sources, and was met initially with flat denials from the Pentagon - until the Pentagon had to shift gears and acknowledge that the earlier reporting was accurate. In contrast, the anonymous sourcing out of the Trump administration kind of cut in every which direction - some borne out by facts, others later revealed to be self-serving "leaks" by disgruntled employees.
It's just so specious. "I don't believe anything that's not on the record." Like people can't lie to reporters on the record?
You're right, it's unreasonable to expect every potential whistleblower leaking information on oppressive regimes to be willing to martyr themselves in the name of truth. But it's also unreasonable to expect the American public to simply take the news media at their word, particularly on matters of political controversy, when that news media has displayed, on numerous occasions, a shocking disregard for the truth. If all I have as an assurance that Nina Totenberg isn't lying to me is Nina Totenberg's pinky promise that she isn't lying to me, then I'm sorry; that's not good enough anymore. There has to be ~some~ way to verify her story without burning her source(s), and if not, then maybe the story wasn't ready to be published.
Whatever their faults, the media - especially ones that try to uphold journalistic standards like NPR - are far more trustworthy than the politicians they report on. It's possible that Totenberg oversold her "scoop." But is there any chance that Roberts or Sotomayor would confirm the story, if it were true? No.
Is there any chance that, if Gorsuch and Sotomayor were at each others throats, she'd rat on him? Sure.
Well the thing that's most ridiculous is all the justices get tested before oral arguments, if they don't have enough viral load to show up in the test masking is just a fetish.
“There is a huge difference between ‘asking’ and ‘suggesting’.”
No there isn’t. The CJ can’t order the others to mask, or even do much of anything.
There is a difference between "asking" and "suggesting". There is a different difference between "ordering" and the first two.
To a lay reader who doesn't understand that the Chief isn't the boss of the other justices, there definitely is a huge difference.
Even if the Chief Justice were the boss, there's a difference. "Maybe you should buy X" is weaker than "would you buy X?" which in turn is much weaker than "go buy X".
No there isn’t.
Maybe if your command of English is pathetically weak.
NPR is so far off the rails I am surprised anyone expects real journalism from them.
For the last few years they have been trotting out the Healthy At Every Size playbook which in effect states obesity is not a health issue, fatphobia is real, and the diet culture is racist. Last March they were running the line that obesity did not make you more at risk from COVID19 and it was being pushed by fat phobic doctors.
There is not rabbit hole of crazy that NPR isn't will
My all-time favorite anonymous source was back from America's golden years under Trump.
He feels the noose tightening said "sources familiar with his thinking".
Trump is doing X because the walls are closing in said "sources familiar with his thinking".
So like literally anyone could qualify as that source.
In contrast, no sources are familiar with President Biden's thinking because no one can be familiar with a thing that doesn't exist. "Let's Go Brandon, I agree."
Not knowing the latest dumbass right wing meme is a pretty good sign of intelligence and good use of time, acutally.
That argument might be worth something if Biden showed evidence of knowing things. Instead, he's busy not knowing about everything, so the Let's Go Brandon meme is just a trivial example of a broad problem.
At least Trump understood that there is no "minor incursion" when it comes to Russian military occupying a sovereign country's territory. But hey, bringing t back to the topic, NPR is here to misreport on what Biden REALLY meant by saying NATO wasn't agreed on how to respond if Russia tries to annex even more of Ukraine.
Awesome pivot. Great job!
God, you don't get it, do you? Trump's whole out-of-power schtick is: "You see that guy? I wouldn't do what he is doing; I'd do it better."
Biden doesn't want a war with Russia. He knows he doesn't have a unified NATO on any kind of military response to a Russian incursion. So you ask him a direct question like, "What are you going to do if Russia invades Ukraine? What if they just invade the Donbas?" He has to find a way to respond that doesn't tip his hand but doesn't go beyond what he has back-up to say.
What do you think Trump would be doing, if he were actually leading the response, instead of sniping from the sidelines?
God, you don't get it, do you?
Given your position that the FDA is being "irrational" by requiring that new drugs be subjected to long-term rigorous testing before being approved (an unavoidable implication of your brain-dead assertion that anyone who shows any apprehension at all about a new vaccine rushed into production and implementation is also "irrational") you probably shouldn't be casting stones at anyone from within your glass house.
Hooking a non sequitur to a strawman.
The rational step I am looking for, from vaxx skeptics, is akin to what doctors are doing when they prescribe drugs for off-label uses. They make those decisions not based on FDA-approved treatments or comprehensive research, but on more limited research and intuitions about a medical condition and how a drug works. Like ivermectin - a safe drug, widely used to treat humans, that has an effect on the human body that might logically address some of the more severe effects of a bad COVID infection. There was at least a plausible causal link to think that ivermectin might serve a useful prophylactic purpose, against COVID; we need a similarly plausible causal link to rationally believe vaxxes could still have hidden risks we don't know about.
The vaccines have, by now, been fully tested and approved by the FDA. So to maintain, now, some degree of skepticism about whether they are "safe" requires pointing to more than their mere novelty. You need to look at the mechanism of the vaccines and explain why those mechanisms - keeping in mind there are different ones in question, depending on the vaccine - are sufficiently likely to result in bad effects that one is better off taking their chances from a full-on infection by any of the COVID variants.
The vaccines themselves are out of our systems within a couple of months, so we have had ample opportunity to see whether they could cause some kind of severe reaction within that timeframe (and some have been noted, just not enough to make them "unsafe," overall). So the question is just whether the long-term immunity acquired by taking the vaccine could itself be a problem beyond what's been observable to date, and weighed against the likely or reasonably anticipated effects of being infected by COVID itself, with the immunity acquired responding to that. When properly understood, the decision ought to be a no-brainer.
The rational step I am looking for, from vaxx skeptics, is akin to what doctors are doing when they prescribe drugs for off-label uses.
Then you're an idiot who lacks even a fundamental conceptual understanding of the issue, as demonstrated by the following:
There was at least a plausible causal link to think that ivermectin might serve a useful prophylactic purpose, against COVID; we need a similarly plausible causal link to rationally believe vaxxes could still have hidden risks we don't know about.
You don't even grasp the enormous differences between issues of efficacy and those of safety. But this one takes the cake:
The vaccines have, by now, been fully tested and approved by the FDA.
That you think FDA approval of a product renders concerns about its safety irrational is the height of ignorance. You're an NPR fan, right?
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/05/09/527575055/one-third-of-new-drugs-had-safety-problems-after-fda-approval
Cheering on Russia.
Cheering on Russia.
Jesus Tap-Dancing Christ, Neiporent...that's as pathetic as your multi-year refusal to acknowledge that the "hands up, don't shoot" bullshit that you helped peddles was in fact bullshit.
"What do you think Trump would be doing, if he were actually leading the response, instead of sniping from the sidelines?"
Well, let's see.
1) He wouldn't have canceled the Keystone pipeline.
2) He wouldn't be banning fracking on federal lands.
3) Operation Warp Speed wouldn't have ended January 20th, so the vaccines would have been updated for new strains, and the updated versions rolled out.
3a) Republicans would still be vax proponents and Democrats anti-vaxxers. Kind of a wash, that.
4) He wouldn't have signed off on Nord Stream.
5) We wouldn't have a mentally ill Assistant Health Secretary.
6) The DOJ wouldn't be insisting on letting men gobble up women's sports records.
7) He wouldn't have even thought about trying to make a communist Comptroller of the Currency. Or dissed Milton Freidman.
8) We'd have a President who wasn't afraid to take a cognitive function test.
Brett, you'll note that my question wasn't, "How would Trump be wrecking the country, if he were in office?" It was, "How would Trump be managing the current tensions with Russia over Ukraine?" The only thing you've said here that might be relevant to that conflict relates to Nord Stream 2. And you're right, Trump sanctioned Gazprom and tried to block that pipeline. But that wouldn't be (and hasn't proven to be) enough to meaningfully influence Putin.
But to your list:
You're right that Trump would not be limiting the construction of oil and gas infrastructure designed to serve the international market or fracking activity on land set aside for environmental protection purposes. That wouldn't do much about gas prices today - just to be clear about that - and it would only prolong American dependence on carbon-emitting fuel sources. But there's certainly no question that Trump would not have been a climate change-fighting president, so I'm not sure why you feel it worth noting. Perhaps you could explain what Trump would be doing about climate change, instead (e.g., in the vein of responding to and anticipating its effects).
Your comment on "Operation Warp Speed" is a bit naive. A difficult decision has to be made on whether it makes sense to adapt the vaccines for newly emerging variants. It would have been unwise to reduce production of the original vaccine in order to try to develop and produce new vaccines that would be tailored for alpha, beta, etc., even through delta and later variants. The original vaccines worked well enough against those variants, and crucially helped to protect against the worst health outcomes from infections.
The first variant we've seen where it looks like a new vaccine will be needed was Omicron, and it looks like it'll take Pfizer four-five months from when it was first identified as a variant of concern to produce vaccines tailored to it - well after the Omicron surge is likely to be past us and a lot of vaccinated people will already have gotten boosted on the original vaccines. So we'll see how much good it really does us.
It's unfortunate, to me, that you think Democrats would have been anti-vaxx if Trump were still in office, as though we all got vaccinated just because Biden told us to. There was some concern, initially, that Trump was pushing Pfizer and other drugmakers to announce the development of a successful COVID vaccine prior to the 2020 election. Because, of course, that was the only reason he cared about Operation Warp Speed - it was about serving his narrow political purposes. But after the vaccines got initial approval and started getting rolled out, uptake was quick. Don't you remember? The most vulnerable people started getting vaccinated before Trump was out of office, and massive numbers of people living in blue states were lining up for the rushed-through vaccines in the early months of 2021, despite the fact that they had been entirely developed while Trump was in office.
Like - this is such a bizarre kind of politically-motivated amnesia, Brett. Democratic governors were burning their own political capital to pursue COVID mitigation measures while Trump was in office, to try to stop COVID. They passed pandemic stimulus packages while Trump was still in office, to try to save an economy buffeted by pandemic shutdowns and illnesses. Why would they have flipped stances on vaccines, if Trump continued in office? Do you think killing thousands of nursing home residents could have helped Cuomo, politically, if Trump were in office?
We were united on vaccines before Biden came into office, Brett. Everyone thought vaccines would end the pandemic and allow us to end all of the burdensome economic shutdowns. And once we got them, in some places (like Florida), the initial uptake of the vaccine continued this trend. But for some reason a lot of anti-vaxxers got it into their heads that they so opposed government vaccine mandates that they wouldn't get vaccinated in the first place, and the politics shifted on the right so that it was no longer politically acceptable to point out how stupid that was. Democrats wouldn't have denied themselves the vaccines just because Trump had spent a lot of money on it.
In fact, if anything, the challenge for Democrats, under Trump, would be getting the damn things. Trump way overpromised on the number of vaccines we would get by the end of 2020, and he left next to no infrastructure for distributing them in 2021. All of that had to be built from the ground up by Biden. So, if Trump were still in office, all we could really expect, on vaccines, is for federal allotments to be made in bulk to the states, which would then have to figure out how to distribute them. And we would then expect (in typical Trump fashion, given how they managed the rest of the pandemic) Trump to play games with the allotments, so that if Newsom and Cuomo didn't suck up to him, they wouldn't get as many vaccine doses as they needed for their states. Instead of reading stories about New Yorkers "cheating" to get vaccines as early as possible, we'd have been reading stories about New Yorkers flying to Miami to get shots.
The rest of your points are just stupid culture war pablum. Stop huffing paint, Brett.
Of course he knew. And it enrages the Trumpkin loons that it didn't cause Biden to have a breakdown the way criticism of his predecessor did of him.
“I hope this controversy ends.”
You’ve told some whoppers before but this is at “20 feet-long trout” levels.
Yawn.
When are midterms again?
NPR ceased credible and honest reporting long ago
1) trump impeachment - 24/7 coverage of trump's "corruption " with Urkrane, but nary a mention of Hunter's & Joe's corruption
2) numerous stories on how the wuhan lab leak was impossible and how trump just made up the lab leak possibility
3) Rittenhouse trial , several segments of the Judge's bias with nary a mention of the countless occurances of prosecution misconduct in the trial
From what you've said here, it's clear you have never listened to NPR. You're making stuff up.
Gaslighto hard at work.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/23/841729646/virus-researchers-cast-doubt-on-theory-of-coronavirus-lab-accident: "NPR found that an accidental release would have required a remarkable series of coincidences and deviations from well-established experimental protocols."
Almost as remarkable as lead in children's toys or melamine in food, I am sure.
Having trouble with the definition of impossible, I see.
Also: gaslighting
He is Very Concerned about the slightest exaggeration by his opponents. And by all signs, not at all concerned about the President greenlighting a "minor incursion" into a strategic ally's territory.
None of that is gaslighting. Also, his comment re: minor incursion was to distinguish between cross-border raids and “what Russia is capable of doing” meaning a full blown invasion. Cross-border raids, messing around with hacking, and these sorts of “minor” events will provoke a response that is different than the response would be to an invasion.
I don’t expect you to understand any of that. But in the event you do, or even when you don’t, I expect you to continue making stupid comments about gaslighting and Biden “green lighting” Russian military actions.
He was saying you were gaslighting, chief.
You got your talking point and really want to change to it from this crap argument you were gonna have to make.
Not gonna let you. Stay on target.
FTR, I was unclear but was adding to the list of terms he has trouble understanding.
Roger. Saw that in your followup.
No, he wasn't. He just had trouble understanding that your accusation of making things up about NPR is gaslighting rather than based on contrasting their reporting to actual facts.
Don't forget the bullshit story about how Fox News' lawyers claimed that nothing he says can be believed.
*Tucker Carlson
We went over that a few days ago. You were wrong about that too; NPR's reporting was accurate as to what the judge said.
"You were wrong about that too; NPR's reporting was accurate as to what the judge said."
No, you were wrong. NPR was wrong about what the lawyers said, and should be able to check a cite to see if the judge was full of shit.
"I am sick of #Maskgate. You are sick of #Maskgate. The Justices are sick of #Maskgate. Alas, there is more #Maskgate."
You aren't helping.
"I hope this controversy ends."
Then stop talking about it.
It's simple enough really. There's a difference between asking someone to do something, and asking if they will. It's good manners, politeness, but also - because of, in fact - phrasing it as a refusable request rather than a tacit order.
All of which is utterly irrelevant when the subject in question publicly declares that he didn't ask/suggest/whatever that anyone to wear a mask.
Josh, it is only you, and those of your ilk, who think this is a "controversy." And it is only you, and those of your ilk, who are keeping it going.
I am not really sure how one could have been observing the Court over these past several months, as the Court has been doing a bad job of managing PR around questions of its "legitimacy" and whatnot, and think that NPR has gotten something wrong here. Sotomayor had concerns about being around her colleagues unmasked. Roberts backed her up on that. Gorsuch didn't care. Now they're throwing NPR under the bus so as to maintain a public image of being collegial.
Put it this way: if you're someone's colleague, and you learn through a public kerfuffle that your colleague has COVID-related concerns about working around you unmasked, do you - out of courtesy for your colleague, with whom you expect to be working for the rest of your natural lives - put on a mask? Or do you not? And: has Gorsuch started wearing a mask around Sotomayor?
If not, it tells you everything you need to know about the "truth" here, word choices notwithstanding.
This story demonstrates the absurdity of our politics and our media in one nest package.
Left leaning reporter breaks story about the Supreme Court.
All three individuals involved in the story explicitly call bullshit on the story.
The reporter, her employer, and everyone else on the left parse commas and practice amateur psychology on people they’ve never spoken with to stick with the narrative, which is more important to them than actual facts.
Amazing. And really really pathetic.
What's pathetic is thinking the journalist got something wrong, just because politicians (including SCOTUS justices) publicly disavow an embarrassing story of their private conversations.
You don't have to trust NPR's reporting uncritically. But surely you shouldn't accept the other statements coming from the Court itself at face value, either. The only reason anyone is doing so is because they want to conclude that NPR made a mistake.
"What's pathetic is thinking the journalist got something wrong, just because politicians (including SCOTUS justices) publicly disavow an embarrassing story of their private conversations."
Why? The justices are public and on the record. Totenberg has no evidence to support her claim. And that which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
And Sotomayor is denying the story as well, but it's not embarrassing for her.
And the journalist admits that she doesn't know what happened.
Where does she do that?
"Where does she do that?"
I see you haven't read the public editor's statement:
"Exactly how did Roberts, in some form, ask or suggest that his colleagues cover up?
Totenberg told me she hedged on this: "If I knew exactly how he communicated this I would say it. Instead I said 'in some form.' "
No, I just thought not knowing exactly how it was communicated and knowing what happened are two different things.
Totenberg clearly does not know what happened. Her hedging reflects a lack of clear or specific knowledge. She only has a belief in some vague event.
The Court has already spent several months making public statements intended to deflect concerns that they had taken an increasingly right-wing turn in their jurisprudence and were undermining their own legitimacy. I am interpreting Sotomayor and Roberts' comments in that same light.
The Court has a long tradition of collegiality that they're trying to maintain, even as it has taken a hard shift to the right in recent years. And Sotomayor must understand that her influence on Roberts and Kavanaugh in chambers would be harmed by publicly sparring with them and Gorsuch over a relatively minor issue like this.
Like I said, read critically. I'm perfectly happy to conclude that the "truth" here may have been something like: One of Sotomayor's uppity clerks, hopped up on COVID militancy propaganda, took offense at Gorsuch's notable refusal to wear a mask, despite Roberts' gentle suggestion that the justices do so, and chose to channel that offense by "leaking" to Totenberg, who in turn weaved it into a larger narrative that tracks other things we've seen about Gorsuch and the Court. So is it Sotomayor's fight? No, maybe not. Is it misreported? Not exactly.
In other words, I can make sense of everything. Your construction requires asserting that Totenberg is just... making things up. Because the justices haven't chosen to corroborated her account.
"despite Roberts' gentle suggestion that the justices do so,"
Sigh. Roberts has said that he didn't request anybody to wear a mask. Are you imagining some space between "request" and "gentle suggestion"?
He's just being generous in trying to find some way to avoid saying that the Justices are all lying about this. [/sarc]
I am not engaged in scriptural exegesis, and I'm not interested in playing your tiresome, distracting semantic game.
I'm just trying to make sense of the various statements we now have. We have an experienced and widely respected Supreme Court reporter trying to get "scoops"; we have an established journalistic institution trying to save face; we have justices being reported on and trying to maintain a certain public image.
I think there are ways of expressing a desire to accommodate someone with COVID sensitivities, in a way that's intended to apply a certain amount of social pressure, that falls short of a direct "command" or "request" or "ask." I also think that namby-pamby COVID warriors tend to be obnoxiously passive-aggressive, and so say things like, "Gosh, it would be great if everyone could wear a mask while in chambers with Justice Sotomayor, so she doesn't die." So that's why I wrote the account that I did - I think Roberts gently suggested something, in a way that irked someone in the room when Gorsuch didn't voluntarily "comply." That would explain all the statements and reporting we've seen.
SimonP, I followed your comments. Your take is possible = You don't have to trust NPR's reporting uncritically. But surely you shouldn't accept the other statements coming from the Court itself at face value, either.
I will concede that it is possible for three sitting SCOTUS justices to deliberately lie on an issue of public interest in order to protect the institution. I would be very, very surprised if this were ultimately found to be the case. Three SCOTUS justices deliberately and intentionally lying to the American public? That just does not compute to me. I cannot envision a world where any one justice would do such a thing, let alone three.
Your supposition is also possible -- I think there are ways of expressing a desire to accommodate someone with COVID sensitivities, in a way that's intended to apply a certain amount of social pressure, that falls short of a direct "command" or "request" or "ask." -- because I have seen that in my own experience over the last two years. Usually it is a passing reference to the immunocompromised and their need to be careful in the current climate (sort of by inference, wear a mask please). You're right about that.
Where does that leave us? We have a highly respected reporter with decades of experience using anonymous source(s) to make an assertion about a sitting SCOTUS justice in a story she wrote (ostensibly to tell us how dysfunctional SCOTUS evidently has become)...and three SCOTUS justices who flatly deny anything of the sort happened. Unless proven otherwise beyond any reasonable doubt, I am going with three sitting SCOTUS justices. I tend to think a whole lot of people see it that way.
We'll learn more over the coming weeks, I am sure. People talk.
You're talking about a group of justices who include people that: apparently lied to the Senate about their views on Roe v. Wade being settled law; appeared at openly partisan events to proclaim that their decisions were not politically-driven; accepted appointment to the Court under extremely dubious circumstances, with no apparent concern on how this would taint their tenure; extolled the virtues of being apolitical when justifying a selfish decision not to resign; and have been issuing a series of disingenuously-reasoned opinions deliberately calculated to influence current political events.
We know that they are lying to us, and they are lying to us because they understand that their legitimacy, and the respect their opinions get, is a function of how they are perceived. And I believe that they justify this misleading of the public, to themselves, in the same way that every other politician in Washington does. To them, it doesn't matter if what they say is true. What matters is the politics and the goals they're trying to achieve. Do Republicans in Congress care about spending? Do Democrats care about inside trading? Pick an issue. The Supreme Court is no different.
"You're talking about a group of justices who include people that: apparently lied to the Senate about their views on Roe v. Wade being settled law..."
Wow. Now look who's playing tiresome semantic games.
I'm just using their own words, TIP, and comparing them to the questioning at oral argument (and disposition of various writs on SB 8). Are you going to maintain that they were being truthful, if/when they find a way to cut back on Roe/Casey later this term?
"Three SCOTUS justices deliberately and intentionally lying to the American public? That just does not compute to me. I cannot envision a world where any one justice would do such a thing, let alone three."
Feh. I can imagine that, it's not even challenging.
But between three sources on the record, and unknown number of anonymous and apparently vague sources, yeah, I'll go with the sources on the record. Every time.
What's pathetic is thinking the journalist got something wrong, just because politicians (including SCOTUS justices) publicly disavow an embarrassing story of their private conversations.
When presented with allegations from a politically biased "journalist" citing anonymous "sources" that are then publicly denied by everyone who is the subject of those allegations, and who are further alleged to be at odds with one another, only a moron would place more trust in the former than the latter.
Keep your narrative, Simon. Let it control how you see the world. I don't give a shit.
Disavowing plain facts makes you look like a fool. Like the Stop the Steal!!! types who ignore obvious facts. But i guess you don't give a shit either.
Totenburg or her sources screwed the pooch. The justices stated it as plainly as they could. They're not sleazy politicians, they've got lifetime tenure, if they wanted they just could have remained silent and let it blow over. Maybe they're getting tired of media bullshit. Totenburg needs to take the L if she wants to maintain any degree of credibility, but it's not required by the fawning zealots, so she doesn't give a shit about credibility.
I'm always amused by these kinds of claims of media bias. You're right that Totenberg has zero incentive to kowtow to your demand for a public apology, because people like you wouldn't listen to her one way or the other. Similarly, the ACLU doesn't advocate strongly for gun rights because gun lovers don't pay it dues; the NYTimes doesn't drum up evidence to support right-wing fantasies because right-wingers don't pay for news; and so on.
What you pay for and support are fact-free opinion shows on FoxNews, grievance-filled substacks and podcasts, and news aggregators that are careful to put a rightward spin on reporting gleaned from other sources. The only "credibility" hurdle your "news" providers need to clear is ideological purity.
There you go with the Fox News crap. It’s your go to insult for people who disagree with you and further demonstrates your problem with your biases. I’m not a right winger and I’ve never ever watched Fox News. Not once even for a minute. No podcasts. No substacks.
Everything you put in this post is completely incorrect. Your bias causes you to be wrong and you’re so far gone that you can’t even consider the possibility.
No, it's a fair assumption, based on the vast majority of people I encounter on here, as well as your own choice to describe NPR as "left-leaning" and conclusion that everyone on "the left" was more committed to the narrative than the facts. Oh, and look, I get to be one of them!
I can only guess at where you get your news. It must be a source that inclines you to be unduly credulous of the Supreme Court justices' self-serving public statements, whatever it is.
It’s a garbage assumption. It’s people on the left that are parsing words and saying that the justices must be lying. And NPR has definitely become progressive. Totenberg got taken by her sources. Believing them with no idea who they are or what their agenda might be while disbelieving the justices who are out there in name is inconsistent intellectually. Does observing the obvious make me a Trumpalo?
I’d note that I didn’t vote for Trump, have criticized him on here severs times, and don’t look at the main board because I said bad stuff about Trump there several times and can’t go there without being stalked. Earlier today - in a response to you - I pointed out that the Stop the Steal crowd is foolish. By your technique doesn’t that make me a progressive?
Your political zealotry has made you simple minded and hypocritical. Sorry but it’s true.
A "garbage assumption" might be assuming that someone is a progressive political zealot just because *checks* they choose to view this NPR kerfuffle in its totality and not jump to the unmerited conclusion that Totenberg completely fabricated an "anonymous source."
I have elsewhere provided a perfectly self-consistent explanation for why both Totenberg and the justices might be saying what they are saying publicly. In fact, what I find inconsistent here is your decision not to trust Totenberg's account - because she's a left-wing journalist relying on an anonymous source - while taking the justices' statements at face value. Can't they have a bias? Don't they have an interest in presenting a different account? Aren't they just as likely to frame things in a self-serving way?
I mean, it's not against the law to lie to the press about private deliberations, and it's an exceedingly common thing for politicians to do, to such an extent that we usually don't even give them the benefit of the doubt. We naturally take everything that Biden and Jen Psaki say through this filter; why do you so easily assume that the justices couldn't possibly be engaged in a similar kind of rhetoric?
"source familiar with the situation"
No way for a reader to evaluate the credibility of such a "source". Such a description fits someone whose only knowledge is that Soto is zooming her appearances. Also fits Soto.
If you don't have at least one source on the record, you don't have a trustworthy story. Period.
Some of this is quite Clintonesque:
Clinton: I did not have sexual relations with that woman!
Some Reporter: But did you have sexual relations with that woman in some way?
Clinton: Oh, yeah, I guess I did.
No, you’re just temporarily out of material apparently but needed to write something. So you dug into the oldies.
The gift that keeps on giving.
So anyway, setting aside npr’s perfidy for a moment, is Gorsuch unmasked while all other justices are masked, and is Sotomayor attending conferences remotely while all other justices attend in person?
"Look, a squirrel!"
I am unsurprised that the actual point of the article is viewed by you as a distraction. Schmuck.
I am unsurprised that the actual point of the article is viewed by you as a distraction. Schmuck.
There's no need to sign your comment with your other pseudonym.
As I already pointed out, the "actual point" of the article was an attempt to portray the court as a disfunctional entity, and Gorsuch as a selfish prick. And to that end the "journalist" in question relied on allegations by anonymous "sources" that have since been directly and unequivocally denied by everyone involved, with said "journalist" subsequently implying that the justices...all of them involved...are lying, you moron.
I have no other pseudonyms you silly twat. And “what you pointed out” is nothing more than speculative blather.
I have no other pseudonyms you silly twat.
***** WHOOOOOSH *****
You're not the sharpest bulb in the tool shed, are you?
And “what you pointed out” is nothing more than speculative blather.
Tell me you didn't read the story without telling me that you didn't read the story.
BTW, the title of the piece was...
"Gorsuch didn't mask despite Sotomayor's COVID worries, leading her to telework"
...you moron.
You’re boring. And ridiculous. Ridiculously boring even.
You’re boring. And ridiculous. Ridiculously boring even.
Well, I wouldn't expect you to be entertained by having your stupidity exposed. You shouldn't expect that either. You might try to learn from it though.
Sure, the details of the story that were publicly observable were correct, and trivial. The parts of the story that were at all valuable were all contradicted by the people involved, on the record.
The important fact we don't know is did Gorsuch refuse to wear a mask and so Sotomayor is attending remotely, or did Sotomayor decide to attend remotely and so Gorsuch concluded he didn't need to bother with a mask. And considering Sotomayor and Gorsuch have publicly said that there's no controversy and they have no problem with each other, what does any of it matter?
“Important” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
“Important” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
Totenberg thought it was important enough to make it the title of the article, and devote the entire leading part of that article to it...you moron.
The question should be, Is Sotomayor participating participating remotely BECAUSE Gorsuch was not wearing a mask, or would Sotomayor be participating remotely even if Gorsuch was wearing a mask?
Sotomayor has expressed she feels she is especially vulnerable to covid due to her diabetes.
The title of Nina Totenberg's article is: "Gorsuch didn't mask despite Sotomayor's COVID worries, leading her to telework"
I searched: "when SCOTUS argues a case who is present?"
The answers I fund are the justices, the attorneys for the petitioner and the attorneys for the respondent, court transcriber, maybe even a scorpion wrangler, plus seating is available to the members of the public on a first-come, first seated basis.
There's more than the none justices present during arguments.
"... the nine justices ..."
I also have raised the question whether Totenberg wrote (or approved) the title, because the text of the article does not directly imply the point of the title: that Sotomayor was led to telework by Gorsuch not wearing a mask,
Bzzzt!
"They all did. Except Gorsuch, who, as it happens, sits next to Sotomayor on the bench. His continued refusal since then has also meant that Sotomayor has not attended the justices' weekly conference in person, joining instead by telephone."
I was ready to blame that headline on a headline writer myself, until I saw that line.
I also have raised the question whether Totenberg wrote (or approved) the title, because the text of the article does not directly imply the point of the title: that Sotomayor was led to telework by Gorsuch not wearing a mask,
You're right. The text of the article doesn't imply it at all. It explicitly states it in clear, unambiguous terms. Did you even read it?
"Perhaps the one silver lining of this mess is that the media will be less likely to publish leaks from SCOTUS."
An even better silver lining of this mess is that the public will be less likely to believe far left wingnuts at NPR.