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Supreme Court Rules Against OSHA Large-Employer Vaccine Mandate, but Upholds Mandate for Health Care Workers
I think both rulings are correct, though not always for the reasons given by the Court.

In two just-issued decisions, NFIB v. Department of Labor and Biden v. Missouri, the Supreme Court ruled against the Occupational Safety and Health Administration's Covid vaccine mandate for workers employed by large employers with over 100 employees (employees who remain unvaccinated are required to wear masks and submit to regular Covid testing), but upheld the narrower Centers For Medicare and Medicaid Services vaccination mandate for health care workers at facilities receiving federal Medicare and Medicaid funds.
For reasons I outlined in a recent NBC article, I think both decisions are correct. But I don't fully agree with the Court's reasoning in the OSHA case.
NFIB v. Department of Labor is a 6-3 ruling, split along ideological lines, with all six conservative justices in the majority, and the three liberals dissenting. Here is the key passage in the per curiam majority opinion:
Administrative agencies are creatures of statute. They accordingly possess only the authority that Congress has provided. The Secretary has ordered 84 million Americans to either obtain a COVID–19 vaccine or undergo weekly medical testing at their own expense. This is no "everyday exercise of federal power."In re MCP No. 165, 20 F. 4th, at 272 (Sutton, C. J., dissenting). It is instead a significant encroachment into the lives—and health—of a vast number of employees.
"We expect Congress to speak clearly when authorizing an agency to exercise powers of vast economic and political significance." Alabama Assn. of Realtors v. Department of Health and Human Servs. , 594 U. S. ___, ___ (2021) [the recently decided eviction moratorium case]…. There can be little doubt that OSHA's mandate qualifies as an exercise of such authority.
The question, then, is whether the Act plainly authorizes the Secretary's mandate. It does not. The Act empowers the Secretary to set workplace safety standards, not broad public health measures. See 29 U. S. C. §655(b) (directing the Secretary to set "occupational safety and health standards" (emphasis added)); §655(c)(1) (authorizing the Secretary to impose emergency temporary standards necessary to protect "employees" from grave danger in the workplace). Confirming the point, the Act's provisions typically speak to hazards that employees face at work. See, e.g., §§651,
653, 657. And no provision of the Act addresses public health more generally, which falls outside of OSHA's sphere of expertise.…
That is not to say OSHA lacks authority to regulate occupation-specific risks related to COVID–19. Where the virus poses a special danger because of the particular features of
an employee's job or workplace, targeted regulations are plainly permissible. We do not doubt, for example, that OSHA could regulate researchers who work with the
COVID–19 virus. So too could OSHA regulate risks associated with working in particularly crowded or cramped environments. But the danger present in such workplaces differs in both degree and kind from the everyday risk of contracting COVID–19 that all face. OSHA's indiscriminate approach fails to account for this crucial distinction— between occupational risk and risk more generally—and accordingly the mandate takes on the character of a general public health measure, rather than an "occupational safety or health standard." 29 U. S. C. §655(b)….
I think the Court is right to focus here on the "major questions" doctrine, which requires Congress to "speak clearly when authorizing an agency to exercise powers of vast economic and political significance." It is also right to conclude that Congress did not clearly authorize OSHA to use its Emergency Temporary Standard authority to impose such a sweeping vaccination mandate. Had the Court ruled the other way here, it would have set a dangerous precedent, giving OSHA sweeping control of virtually all workplace conditions. But I'm not convinced by the Court's distinction between dangers specific to the workplace, and those that also exist elsewhere. I think the three dissenting justices are right to point out that this distinction is not actually drawn by the OSHA statute.
Rather, the reason why the "indiscriminate" nature of the OSHA mandate dooms the mandate is that many of the workers covered don't actually face a "grave danger," as required by the ETS statute. This is especially true, given that they could easily mitigate any danger simply by getting vaccinated voluntarily (the government concedes that OSHA found a "grave danger" to exist only for unvaccinated workers).
In a concurring opinion joined by two other justices (Thomas and Alito), Justice Neil Gorsuch argues that the OSHA mandate also violates the nondelegation doctrine. I agree with much of his argument.
The joint dissent by the three liberal justices makes some good points. But, ultimately, I don't think it can get around the lack of clear delegation to use emergency authority for such a sweeping measure.
I may have more to say about the opinions in this case in future posts.
In Biden v. Missouri, a 5-4 Court upheld the the CMS health-care worker vaccine mandate. Chief Justice Roberts and Brett Kavanaugh joined the three liberals in the majority. Here is the key passage in the majority opinion, which I largely agree with:
Congress has authorized the Secretary to impose conditions on the receipt of Medicaid and Medicare funds that "the Secretary finds necessary in the interest of the health
and safety of individuals who are furnished services." 42 U.S. C. §1395x(e)(9).* COVID–19 is a highly contagious, dangerous, and—especially for Medicare and Medicaid patients—deadly disease. The Secretary of Health and Human Services determined that a COVID–19 vaccine mandate will substantially reduce the likelihood that healthcare workers will contract the virus and transmit it to their patients. 86 Fed. Reg. 61557–61558. He accordingly concluded that a vaccine mandate is "necessary to promote and protect patient health and safety" in the face of the ongoing pandemic.…The rule thus fits neatly within the language of the statute. After all, ensuring that providers take steps to avoid transmitting a dangerous virus to their patients is consistent with the fundamental principle of the medical profession: first, do no harm. It would be the "very opposite of efficient and effective administration for a facility that is supposed to make people well to make them sick with COVID–19."Florida v. Department of Health and Human Servs., 19 F. 4th 1271, 1288 (CA11 2021).
The States and JUSTICE THOMAS [in his dissent] offer a narrower view of the various authorities at issue, contending that the seemingly broad language cited above authorizes the Secretary to impose no more than a list of bureaucratic rules regarding the technical administration of Medicare and Medicaid.
But the longstanding practice of Health and Human Services in implementing the relevant statutory authorities tells a different story. As noted above, healthcare facilities that wish to participate in Medicare and Medicaid have always been obligated to satisfy a host of conditions that address the safe and effective provision of healthcare, not
simply sound accounting.
When asked at oral argument whether the Secretary could, using the very same statutory authorities at issue here, require hospital employees to wear gloves, sterilize instruments, wash their hands in a certain way and at certain intervals, and the like, Missouri answered yes… Of course the vaccine mandate goes further than what the Secretary has done in the past to implement infection control. But he has never had to address an infection problem of this scale and scope before. In any event, there can be no doubt that addressing infection problems in Medicare and Medicaid facilities is what he does.…
Vaccination requirements are a common feature of the provision of healthcare in America: Healthcare workers around the country are ordinarily required to be vaccinated for diseases such as hepatitis B, influenza, and measles, mumps, and rubella... As the Secretary explained, these preexisting state requirements are a major reason the agency has not previously adopted vaccine mandates as a condition of participation.
There may be cases in which there is ambiguity about whether a given regulation really advances the "health and safety" of patients. In such a case, the condition could not be imposed on state government-controlled facilities, because it would violate the longstanding requirement - embedded in the Supreme Court's Spending Clause jurisprudence - that such conditions must be clearly stated. But vaccination to limit the spread of a deadly disease to which many hospital and nursing home residents are unusually vulnerable is not a borderline case. It's an easy one. If anything advances the "health and safety" of patients, this surely does.
If there is anything surprising about the CMS ruling, it's that it was a 5-4 decision. I would have expected a larger majority. Like the liberal dissenters in the OSHA case, Thomas' dissent here makes some reasonable points. But, ultimately, he cannot get around the fact that the power to protect the "health and safety" of Medicare and Medicaid facility patients goes beyond merely administrative and clerical regulations. And if it does, vaccinating health care workers becomes an easy case.
Ultimately, the difference between the two case outcomes reflects the far less sweeping nature of the CMS regulation, and the different wording of the two statutes. I discussed the latter in a bit more detail in my NBC article.
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"But I'm not convinced by the Court's distinction between dangers specific to the workplace, and those that also exist elsewhere. I think the three dissenting justices are right to point out that this distinction is not actually drawn by the OSHA statute."
Thank-you for recognizing that this. I'd go further and say that the distinction would be completely illusory anyway because pretty much any workplace hazard exists elsewhere.
The problem is that this isn’t a workplace issue. Hell, the president’s chief of staff doesn’t think so.
I’d like to see more people vaccinated and think that most of the objections are silly, but I’m pleased that more people won’t be losing their jobs over this crap.
On the bright side, at least some of the belligerently ignorant, lethally reckless, antisocial people will be fired.
Yeah I noticed that as well. Honestly the entire opinion read in such a stupid manner. There were random citations to claims by people that aren't backed up by anything. Like at one point the justices claimed its just not what the agency does ... like why? Says who? Why can't it be?
I happen to agree with notion that there is a major questions issue here, because due to the scope of the regulation (though I do wish Congress had passed a version of this) but the reasoning was extremely sloppy.
Another sloppy reason was trying to use the fact that OSHA had never done something like this before as a reason it couldn’t. I mean part of the point of agencies is they’re supposed to respond to unique challenges that Congress couldn’t contemplate at the time. Of course they’ve never done a widespread vaccination campaign, there’s never been a global pandemic of this scale for OSHA to deal with before. Let’s say it turns out that something relatively common like modern insulation is actually as harmful as asbestos. It would be odd to suggest OSHA couldn’t make regulations to get it out of the workplace simply because they’d never done that before.
I’m not a big fan of the major questions doctrine, but at least it’s a known thing and the Court could just say it’s way too big a problem that Congress wouldn’t have wanted an agency to deal with and leave it at that. A lot of the additional reasoning and justifications actually make the court look worse than saying: this is a huge deal Congress needs to do it.
The “osha” hasn’t done this before is a valid argument in this case. I’m a safety professional and have been for the last 20 years. OSHA has never required a hazard control that permanently alters a worker. Safety glasses are PPE that can be removed at the end of a shift. Forklift training doesn’t affect anyone’s health. OSHA requires employers to offer Hep B vaccines to workers who have a likelihood of exposure to blood or other bodily fluids. But workers are free to decline that vaccine by signing a form.
But requiring a vaccine permanently alters a person and exposes them to, while rare, potentially life threatening risk. Never has OSHA required a worker to put their life at risk in order to control another hazard. In fact, the OSHAct specifically requires employers to provide a workplace free of known hazards and the vaccine is a known hazard - albeit with a risk probability that’s very low.
In cases where workers must make tough risk decisions with risk trade offs, it’s best to put those decisions as close to the work as possible.
There was a testing option, so a way to opt out, just like with hepatitis.
I find the "permanently altering" argument to be pretty silly -- no support in the statute. It sounds like lawyers sitting around brainstorming arguments... hmmm what's something about this regulation that we can say is unprecedented? How about "you can't take it off"?
I think the reason the opinion is so scatterbrained is because each of the justices had a different theory of the case. It sort of bounces around thru each justices' points rather than choosing a rationale.
Since the testing option required it to be at the employee's own expense and repeated endlessly, it is questionable whether that was a realistic opt-out. OSHA has never imposed a requirement like that. (Nor has any other agency that I'm aware of.) If the case gets that far, it will be an interesting argument at trial.
All requirements are at the employers own expense. Not just vaccines.
Now, in all fairness, the administration was expecting that most employers wouldn't pay millions for a couple of employees being stupid, and require it anyway. But their expectation is irrelevant, the statute allows a testing option.
Wrong. Forklift training exposes workers to terrifying quantities of butt crack.
"I'd go further and say that the distinction would be completely illusory anyway because pretty much any workplace hazard exists elsewhere."
Yet OSHA has no authority to mandate safety measures against such hazards outside of the workplace.
If you are a professional carpenter and also maintain a home hobby workshop, OSHA safety regulations that control your work environment can not touch your home hobby workshop.
The vaccine mandate is not a safety measure that is confined to the workplace.
Except there is no vaccine mandate. There's (or at least was proposed) a mandate for people who are unvaccinated to get tested. The fact that people who get tested for the Coronavirus for purposes of their job Monday-Friday would also know on Saturday that they'd been tested for it doesn't mean that it's controlling a non-work environment.
So OSHA can’t regulate hand washing for food service employees because their hands will be clean and bacteria free outside the workplace?
You need the government -- the FEDERAL government to tell you wash your hands??????
No, OSHA can't regulate hand-washing for food service employees because that's a protection for the customers, not the employees. Hand-washing requirements for food service workers are part of local health codes - just as vaccine mandates should be.
Handwashing for food service employees may also be required by the USDA or in some cases the FDA, but again, that's for the protection of customers, not the employees.
The employee could get their hands dirty and not wash after work.
You can't unvaccinate yourself when you leave the workplace.
So? Where in the statute does the notion of it being permanent or not matter?
Prof. Somin, I completely disagree. The vaccine rule is clearly within the emergency mandate powers granted to it by Congress. The major questions doctrine has no basis in constitutional text, and an extremely questionable historical basis. It is manufactured doctrine in order to justify the desired outcome. You and the conservatives justices don't like the mandate, so you have concocted a reasonable sounding basis for striking it down. Never mind Congress' clear intent, six unelected lawyers in robes have spoken. I guess the desire for judicial minimism goes out the window when one side has a 6-3 majority.
I think it's more accurate to look at it as a constitutional avoidance doctrine.
The constitution doesn’t really really authorize most administrative agencies rule making ability. So it’s a stretch of the constitution to even allow OSHA to make rules. SCOTUS used the major question doctrine to allow agencies to exist within some limits. OSHA exceeded its limits. And, in the documents OSHA sent to the federal register, OSHA outlined how the ETS could be defeated. Never has an administrative agency ever published the roadmap to have their standard defeated. I know some of the senior folks at OSHA and THAT was on purpose. They knew OSHA should be used this way.
Yes, that's the theory. But it's extremely susceptible -- as here -- to outcome-oriented judgements.
It's easy to see a policy you don't like as being beyond the subjective limit of what's allowed, whereas a policy you do like is of course not a big deal. In other words, people don't like policies for reasons, and it's easy to transpose those reasons into reasons that the policy is excessive.
For example here, the conservatives don't like the vaccine mandate for policy reasons, and so they make a big deal of it, like, oh, how can a federal agency be allowed to impose such a humongous burden on so many people, that's my Major Question. And the liberals, who like the policy, are all what's the problem, bro? It's no big deal, everyone gets a bazillion vaccines in their life already anyway, this is just a totally standard precaution so of course it falls within the agency's ambit.
Even the Major Questions doctrine itself mentions political ramifications as a metric. I mean really, what is the Major Questions doctrine other than a licence for a judge to look at a policy say, I *really* don't like this policy, in fact I Majorly don't like it, and that makes it a Major Question and therefore illegal.
I think it would be better to follow Gorsuch's concurrence to its logical conclusion and jettison the Major Questions doctrine in favor of relying directly on Non-Delegation for this kind of thing. Don't say "well, I hate this policy and therefore I'll assume Congress didn't intend it even though the law they passed allows it." Instead say "I hate this policy and therefore I'm striking down the law that allowed it to be enacted." It's still outcome-oriented but at least it's a little more honest in that the judge has to be willing to cancel all policies under the law at issue, not just this one, including potential future policies that the judge might actually like.
NFIB might be a 6-3 ruling, but that is not clear. There is no indication of how many judges voted for the per curiam opinion, which only required 5 votes.
The vaccines are officially crappy and don’t stop spread so this is now a personal health care decision for families to make and NOT a public health issue. That said the vaccines were still effective against Delta so Republican “leaders” started rejecting science a few months early and “leaders” like DeathSantis got tens of thousands of Americans unnecessarily killed. So the 3 big factors that have dictated a population’s death rate are:
1. Initial wave
2. Ability to restrict travel
3. In 2021 was the population Republican or Democrat with Republican populations having significantly higher death rates due to rejecting science during the Delta wave
4. A fourth anomaly is if a population is young and fit because in America old and unhealthy is the rule
Why is the injection deemed a "vaccine" rather than just a "shot"? Its characteristics are much closer to a flu "shot" rather than a mumps "vaccine." The more precise language would seem to add clarity to discussions about its utility.
The three liberal justices, as quoted by CNN[1] argument is "As disease and death continue to mount, this Court tells the agency that it cannot respond in the most effective way possible."
The reasoning, it would seem, is that during a pandemic, however that may be defined and for however long, there is no law. The governments' experts make the law ... and whatever they claim will mitigate the pandemic is beyond criticism.
Would they be alive during the American Revolution, the US would still be (one of the few remaining) British colonies.
[1] https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/13/politics/supreme-court-vaccine-mandate-covid-19/index.html
The same Revolution where Washington had to mandate smallpox inoculation to spare his army? That one?
Yes ... and I'm sure you'll be supporting forced sterilization of the "feebleminded" and internment of those of undesirable national origins too.
What a bizarre response to LTG. What does that have to do with Washington's actions during the Revolution (which you invoked)?
Um no. Why would I do that?
Well, vaccine mandates have been a slippery slope to forced sterilization before...
No they haven’t. The fact that Jacobsen was cited without analysis in Buck doesn’t mean that people who supported vaccination mandates would inevitably adopt a eugenics ideology.
I want people vaccinated so everyone can be healthy and escape the pandemic it does not follow from this principle that I also want to HARM people through sterilization.
It doesn't take significant mental gymnastics to understand that one man's harm is another man's health. Sterilization was justified on the grounds that it helped both society and the sterilized, who wouldn't have to take care of children that they were not equipped to parent.
It's nice to see how eager you are to force your own health interests on your fellow citizen, but without any credible reduction in COVID transmission risk, what is the justification for your over-inflated interest in other people's health?
“It doesn't take significant mental gymnastics to understand that one man's harm is another man's health. “
Yes it does. You’re engaging in them right now.
“ what is the justification for your over-inflated interest in other people's health?”
I care about you and don’t want you to end up in the ICU or die. I care about people who might have other reasons to be in the hospital and can’t because COVID patients are taking all the resources.
Has it ever occurred to you that your health and the health of everyone else is important to people like me?
Well I think the DOD does he have authority to mandate vaccines as they have always done, according to law that is, which requires religious exemptions.
But the rest of us are not in the army, and don't have to put up with the encroachment of personal freedoms being in the army entails.
Washington did not order smallpox vaccinations of civilians, only of his soldiers, so your example is inapt. The country was at war, and in fact at a very tense moment in the war, further justifying the mass inoculation of his army as an emergency measure.
"The governments' experts make the law ... and whatever they claim will mitigate the pandemic is beyond criticism."
It is a tough general principle to defend abstractly, but in this case the idea that a vaccine for a pandemic is hardly way out there...
A vaccine that is very impotent for the currently dominate covid strain.
I am pro vaccine and pro taking mitigation measures that work. The vaccine worked to reduce the severity of the covid illness from the alpha and delta strains, but its effectiveness agains the omicron strain is very low.
Gotta wonder why everyone is throwing hissy fits over something that is going to make virtually no difference.
"its effectiveness agains the omicron strain is very low."
I don't understand why the narrative has become this. It is still pretty effective, and unvaccinated people are being hospitalized at 7x higher rates than vaccinated people, and much more so for boosted.
The "vaccines" are gene therapy injections that are effective at killing about 150,000 people and injuring millions more in the United States. Nobody should be forced to be a guinea pig in a dangerous experiment to keep his job even if he works in a health care facility.
The vaccines are not gene therapy
JFC
Sigh. I suppose hard hats are also some big violation of your rights as well?
His name is Brophy and you took the time to reply.
That is not entirely true
The delta pre August was about 10x-12x
From sept through nov , the delta was approx 4x as the ax effectiveness eroded,
With the omicron variant, the delta is barely at best 2x
Where are you getting these random numbers ... 7x, 2x ? There are places with many more vaccinated than unvaccinated in hospitals, and other places with the opposite.
To get any meaningful understanding of the situation, you have to do a more nuanced analysis, taking into account demographics, age, prior COVID infection, source of infection, etc.
For values of, "nuanced," = "cherry picking."
Here's an example from Scotland: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19843315.covid-scotland-case-rates-lowest-unvaccinated-double-jabbed-elderly-drive-rise-hospital-admissions/
The 7x rate is high at least in most countries. 3x or 4x is more the norm. But in any case the fatality due to to omicron is between 0,155 and 0,3% in countries with high nd with low vaccination rates.
As for preventing infection, the efficacy is in the 30% to 40% range even with boosters. In "booster binge" countries the infection rates have not been slowed.
Gotta wonder why everyone is throwing hissy fits over something that is going to make virtually no difference.
Joe, because this decision will outlast Covid, and we have no notion what the future may hold. We do know that some catastrophes the future serves up could make this decision a costly impediment to saving lives, and maybe cost millions of them.
When the nation meets that river, it will cross it.
Nico, or fail to cross it. The time to think soberly about extremely stressful situations is rarely when you are in the middle of an extremely stressful situation. People are bad at that.
SL - you are arguing what is the best policy -
However, since the Federal government is of limited powers, the sole question is whether the legislative branch gave the executive branch the authority to implement the regulation.
Those are two separate questions.
The sole legal question is whether the executive branch had the authority.
That was not the sole question. The legal authority question had already been decided previously and otherwise. There was plenty of room to fit this case in that precedent. Policy preference on the Court is what drove this outcome.
I'm having trouble finding the 'major questions' doctrine in my copy of the Constitution. Is it in Article XII somewhere in the back?
It's in the same section as your right to privacy.
So you believe that the ninth amendment doesn't exist, and the only rights people have are those specifically enumerated? Individual rights is an entirely different discussion than these made-up interpretational doctrines used in bad faith to reach a desired outcome.
Why wouldn’t “major questions” doctrine also exist under the 9th amendment?
Why would it? What does the 9th have to do with what authority Congress can delegate to an agency, and how the statutory language of the delegation is interpreted?
Two sections Article 1:
"All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives."
So that means the executive can't write its own laws, it's up to congress.
And in Article 2:
"he shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed,"
Which also means he can't just enforce whatever he wants, but only the law as congress wrote it.
I would think people that were having the vapors for 4 years that Trump was leading us into authoritarianism would have a proper respect for separation of powers and confine a presidential authority to what congress or the constitution have specifically granted.
Congress did grant the authority.
The Major Questions doctrine, at least starting with this opinion, is: Congress granted the authority, and that's fine, but we think they probably didn't think it through all the way, because this policy stinks. So let's assume they didn't mean to grant the authority that they granted. Look ma, I'm making policy as a judge!
Exactly!
"I'm having trouble finding the 'major questions' doctrine in my copy of the Constitution. Is it in Article XII somewhere in the back?"
It's right in the middle of the section that authorizes Congress to delegate legislative authority to the executive.
Shows we have three partisan justices.
Someone can't count.
Someone doesn’t know the meaning of the word “partisan”.
Partisan insists all the people who disagree with him are partisans.
Doesn't really even believe himself.
This is a spectacular point: Supreme Court justices can be partisan because random internet commenter looks partisan. Bravo.
Three lockstep votes more-or-less anything Dems want. Don’t say it’s partisan!!!!
I'm not really sure what is meant by "partisan," in this context. It would appear that 6 justices don't like this mandate, and so manufactured a reason for granting a stay. Would that be partisan? Three justices thought it would be wiser for SCOTUS to stay out of the decision and not grant the stay. Is that partisan?
I was expecting Barrett to be in the majority in Biden v. Missouri. Otherwise, no surprises. The courts should look sharply at any attempts to extend the executive power beyond the executive branch. (I think the mandate is okay within the executive branch itself.)
I don't think it can get around the lack of clear delegation to use emergency authority for such a sweeping measure.
But they so desperately want it to.
SCOTUS nominations makes me a single issue voter. I don't care how noxious the candidate is. I can't ever let a D near the SCOTUS lever. Plenty of R cockups over the years for sure. But seriously, this belief that the breadth of Federal power is only limited by one's imagination is downright frightening.
The major question doctrine has nothing to do with the breadth of federal power. It has to do with which branch of the federal government holds that power at any given time.
If you're going to be a single-issue voter, you should really do a better job of understanding that issue.
Dem partisan judges are rubber stamps. The "major question doctrine" is only relevant when there aren’t enough rubber stamps.
In the dissent - Osha can write any regulation as long as it is not prohibited by statute!
No, as long as it is within the authority granted to it by Congress. Which is sort of what you said, I guess.
What the OSHA decision sets up is some moment in the future—how soon no one can tell—when the executive will tell the court to pound sand, and in defiance go ahead and exercise powers to protect public health. When that happens, there will be almost no one who will side with the Court, because the emergency will be such that they will discredit this decision utterly, and show that it was folly. It was not wise for the Court to put itself in that position.
Why not just have a fuckin’ king, you know?
Honestly, at this point, we might be better off.
Are the executive and courts the only two branches? That seems like major problem.
If I were designing things I would add a third branch, so that if the executive was right then they could grant him the power they thought he needed.
But I think one branch having all the power would be a bad idea.
When that happens, you have to promise you’ll never use the term “ur democracy” again, because at that point, we’ll be a full-blown tyranny.
That would be interesting.
Why would anyone obey what "the executive" commands, knowing courts will rule against "the executive" when the matter comes before judges? Are you planning on summary executions in cities? Because if not, we'll all have a good laugh at "the executive" and his hysterical attempts before his impeachment, conviction, arrest and trial.
Well! As long as it is for the Greater Good, no mere Law can be allowed to interfere, right?
And of course all right-thinking citizens agree. Surely you wouldn't disagree, citizen? That would be wrong-think, and we wouldn't want that now...
bevis, Kazinski, Callahan, Ben, Toranth — you are all as blinkered (and imaginatively challenged) as the Court majority. Suppose a pandemic which commenced by killing a few million in its first week, and then accelerated—all of it going on in just a few states.
Do you really think any notable part of the population would then demand constraints on public health counter-measures by the executive? Anyone stupid enough to say so aloud would risk immediate deadly violence from anyone around to hear it. Really. Read your own comments, and see what idiocy they would seem in that context.
I get that you will have no trouble dismissing the hypothetical, to save a refuge for foolishness, just because you stumbled into it. That would be stupid too. But take heart. As bad as your judgment has been, it is a match for the wisdom of a 6-vote majority on the U.S. Supreme Court.
Stephen, just imagine what will happens when Mars invades or the asteroid approaches. But all of it in a few blue states.
Geez, you need to get out more.
Seriously, SL, in your terror scenario either the president or the Joint Chief will act and questions will be asked months later after the crisis is past. At that point (if anyone sues) the Courts will "find" a reason why the actions were all okay.
But keep working on the script, these apocalyptic movies seem to sell.
Stephen, let’s make those decisions when confronted with that magnitude of emergency. This is not what that is, and you have the audacity to call us fools for not being inclined to destroy our system of checks and balances over THIS pandemic.
You’re just pissed that you didn’t get your way (entirely) and you’re spouting ridiculous crap because of it. And you’re foolish enough to believe that your hypothetical emperor-president would be guaranteed to rule in a way you approve of. You control freaks never consider that the powers you want to grant could come back and bite you in the ass even though it happens time and time again.
If there was a disease that killed "a few million in its first week and then accelerated", there would be no United States within a month.
The few survivors scavenging in the ruins would have no interest in the Supreme Court (long dead) or in your bullshit scenario.
Pretending you had an actual argument, and not a paranoid delusion, here's the entire problem with your argument: If no significant portion of the population opposes the health measures, then there is no need to make them mandatory.
You are advocating for unlawful violence to assuage your ignorant fears. Thank god for the 2nd Amendment, though, because paranoid petty tyrants like you can be dealt with appropriately if they cross the lines.
SL,
The soothsayer speaks. Your scenario is only your bad dream. Time to wake up.
Nico, do you suggest that terrifying pandemics are not a thing, or only a thing of the past? On what basis? Even assuming nature turned unaccountably benign, human nature will never be that. What about CRISPR?
Join the blinkered others. Dismiss the hypothetical. But answer this question when you have leisure to consider it. What advantage does dismissing the hypothetical confer?
Hypothetically your hypothetical pandemic could be being carried in by foot traffic across our southern border. Time to start draconian practices to shut down that traffic, including shooting border crossers on sight. Right? Don’t be foolish and dismiss the hypothetical.
The president should be unilaterally allowed to do this. And anybody that protests should be immediately thrown in prison to be executed without a trial. Nobody should be able to stop it. I mean, the constitutional structure we’ve got gets thrown out in the face of hypothetical crises.
tephen Lathrop
January.14.2022 at 1:07 am
Flag Comment Mute User
Nico, do you suggest that terrifying pandemics are not a thing, or only a thing of the past? "
To a some extent - Yes
A) We are currently nearing the end of the 3rd major wave, which is the typical length of respiratory virus pandemics - so yes we are likely near the "past"
B) the dominant variant is currently the omicron variant which the current vaccines are largely ineffective - The mandate at this point is demanding vaccination for last years virus. Similar to demanding a flu shot for last year strain of the flu.
When OSHA performs it’s mission of protecting employees and protecting the general public, OSHA has likely saved thousands of lives and overall is a very valuable agency. OSHA does act as a healthy deterrent-effect to bad employers and has vastly improved workplace safety.
In general, most Americans, of any political party, probably want government to protect them from “others” not to protect them from themselves. When OSHA sticks to their core mission, that is essentially the role they are playing.
The danger is if Americans want government to protect us from ourselves - not others there is always mission-creep 100% of the time.
For example: would we want a government agency strictly regulating risky activities that pose no risk to others like skiing, riding motorcycles, riding horses, rock climbing, surfing, skateboarding, riding on ATVs, etc.
Not an employer failing to protect employees or the general public (others), but a private citizen that poses no harm to anyone else. Most American voters probably don’t want any government agency intruding that deeply into personal lives.
What if the rule was: any workplace with at least one worker who is immunocompromised or otherwise medically contraindicated from vaccinating, or at least one worker with a religious objection to vaccinations, must have a vaccine mandate covering all employees who interact with or work alongside said worker(s), with medical and religious exceptions.
And the Republican Death Cult marches on.
Yes!!! It’s Jim Crow on steroids!!!!
Oh, sorry, got my ridiculous political hyperbole mixed up.