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Section 3 Lawsuit Filed Against Candidacy of Rep. Madison Cawthorn
This suit does not turn on the meaning of "officers of the United States" and "office . . . under the United States" in Section 3.
Several voters in North Carolina filed a candidacy challenge against Rep. Madison Cawthorn before the State Board of Elections. The challengers allege that Cawthorn is disqualified from running for re-election pursuant to Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, based on his conduct on January 6, 2021. (To be precise, if Cawthorn is in fact disqualified pursuant to Section 3, the House could have already expelled him).
Section 3 provides, in part:
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
Seth Barrett Tillman and I wrote an article about two phrases in Section 3: "officer of the United States" and "office . . . under the United States." The challenge against Cawthorn, however, does not turn on the meaning of either phrase.
The jurisdictional element of Section 3 expressly applies to a person who took an oath "as a member of Congress." On January 3, 2021 Cawthorn took an oath as a Representative. And the disqualification element of Section 3 expressly applies to a "Senator or Representative in Congress." Cawthorn currently serves as a Representative, and has announced his candidacy for re-election. Thus, if this issue is ever litigated, the courts would have no occasion to decide the meaning of the phrases "officer of the United States" and "office . . . under the United States" in Section 3.
This challenge has many other problems, which Derek Muller describes at the Election Law Blog. States generally have the authority to exclude from the ballot those candidates for state office who do not meet state law qualifications. But Derek doubts that states can exclude from the ballot those congressional candidates who may not meet the federal qualifications for office. Derek writes:
While states have the power over the "manner" of congressional elections, that power does not extend to adding qualifications for office, or the related power of adjudicating qualifications. I make this argument in Weaponizing the Ballot. A state can develop rules over the mechanics of appearing on the ballot, including threshold levels of support, but cannot extend to substantive evaluation of candidates.
Ultimately, the people can decide whether to vote for a candidate, and Congress can judge whether that candidate is qualified. Derek writes that State election boards cannot deny people the right to vote for the congressional candidate of their choice, based on the board's interpretation of federal law. Derek observes that the House has taken no action to expel Cawthorn or others. If Congress hasn't seen fit to exclude its own members, would it be proper for the courts to do so?
In my view, this litigation is just a warm-up for the inevitable Section 3 litigation against Trump. There is a hope that some court, somewhere, finds that Section 3 is justiciable, and concludes that there was an insurrection. Those legal and factual predicates will grease the skids to keep Trump off the ballot. This issue is not going away. Marc Elias already sent out the marching orders:
https://twitter.com/marceelias/status/1473118873302056961?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1473118873302056961%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Freason.com%2Fwp-admin%2Fpost.php%3Fpost%3D8147049action%3Dedit
Recently, the Congressional Research Service published an updated report on Section 3, which cited a blog post Seth and I wrote. Stay tuned for more.
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I can say that anyone engaged in insurrection, just like I can say that any particular individual is a murderer. Generally, it takes a verdict in a court of law to find that a person actually committed insurrection or murder.
However in the case of members of Congress, Article 1 says :
"Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members"
It's not very difficult to argue that "qualifications" includes not just age, citizenship, being an inhabitant of the State, but also whether you have engaged in insurrection etc.
For people seeking office other than in Congress, though, I agree that some sort of legal conviction would probably be needed.
Yes, as I recall Roy Moore argued that Keith Ellison should be deemed unqualified for Congress, based on the premise that the tenets of Islam deny all freedom of conscience and mandate a violent and restrictive theocracy, and likened swearing in on the Koran to swearing in on Mein Kampf or the Communist Manifesto. This was notwithstanding that Keith Ellison presumably does not express adherence to such tenets. Separately, the Anti-Defamation League called for Keith Ellison to be disqualified from serving as chair of the DNC, obviously not a Congressional qualification issue.
The issue isn't being engaged in an insurrection but having been engaged while under and oath of office. Were simply being engaged in insurrection the case some 1960 radicals might have been precluded from serving in federal or state offices.
I see people like Madison Cawthorn as having failed to uphold their oath of office both because of the insurrection and also failure to support a peaceful transition of power as articulated in the Constitution.
The issue is what's "insurrection"? It's pretty clear to me it means stuff comparable to the Civil War. Not a petty riot- even a dangerous one.
"Petty riot."
Insurrections are generally "petty," or farcical, unless they succeed.
It is not the outcome, but the intent, that matters.
That's wrong as an interpretation of the 14th Amendment. They weren't trying to DQ delusional lone wolves. They were trying to DQ people who participated in the Confederacy.
That's one example. But they probably also had things like the Whiskey Rebellion in mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion
If they'd wanted to kick out only people who were on the wrong end of the civil war, they could have done so. The fact that the drafters of the 14th amendment used general language instead cautions against too narrow a reading.
The CRS Legal Sidebar that Josh links (thanks for that, Josh!) addresses this point at some length. It's obviously just advisory, but I think that a formal legal finding would not be necessary based on what they cite.
Interesting "prediction" that's actually just a statement of what they intend to do.
I predict that I will have a cup of coffee this afternoon.
I have to confess I didn’t think about the possibility that state law and state courts would adjudicate Section 3 disqualification cases.
But at first glance, I don’t see that it’s inherently unconstitutional. Adjudication by a court doesn’t have the Bill of Attainder or Due Process issues that would come with Congress (or some other body) simply declaring a person to have violated Section 3. And state tribunals often adjudicate the question of whether a person is qualified for the ballot.
It is possible that the evidentiary standard might need to be higher than for an ordinary civil suit, perhaps beyond a reasonable doubt rather than preponderance of the evidence, and perhaps an accused might be entitled to a lawyer or other protections applicable to criminal trials. But if so, heightened standards and protections could be implemented by a state court.
One immediate issue is that I don’t see that a state court would necessarily have jurisdiction to prohibit serving in ANY office, as Section 3 says, it would just have jurisdiction over its own ballot. But I’m not sure this is insurmountable. Perhaps other states would defer based on full faith and credit, res judicata, or similar. Perhaps if someone moved, the new state would be free to make its own independent decision. Either way, it doesn’t strike me as presenting a fundamental constitutional problem.
That said, I don’t think a proceeding in a purely administrative body like a state Board of Elections provides sufficient protections to the accused to adjudicate a Section 3 disqualification. I agree that such an adjudication needs a court of law, and might need hightened protections similar to criminal rather than civil proceedings.
I think the question of whether disqualification can be done through an administrative proceeding is separate from the question of whether it can be done by a state.
Presumably a decision by a state Board of Election can be challenged in court. In that case, I don't see the problem with having them make a decision in the first instance.
I think the issue is justiciable, and very clearly so. Section 3 makes out the elements of an illegal act similar to a tort or a crime. Participation in an insurrection is as much a justiciable factual matter as treason.
The Constitution makes an absolute prohibition with no language suggesting exclusive enforcement, indeed without assigning its enforcement to any particular body. Concurrent enforcement simply isn’t inconsistent with the text.
For some reason I’m reminded of the children’s story: “Shrewd Toadie and Lyzer the Miser.” The story goes like this: Toadie would borrow nice silver spoons from Lyzer and each time he gave them back he gave one of his own small silver spoons to Lyzer claiming that the spoon Lyzer gave him gave birth. One day Toadie asks for some silver candlesticks, Lyzer hoping that this would lead to more “births” gives him 8. Instead of returning them, Toadie sells them and tells Lyzer that they “died.” A furious Lyzer goes to the rabbi to demand the injustice be corrected. The Rabbi laughs and scolds Lyzer reminding him that if he accepts foolishness when it’s to his benefit, he cannot now complain when the same foolishness led to his detriment.
How does this apply to Cawthorn? Well all the people (including Cawthorn) who accepted the legitimacy the of insane litigation and constitutional theories advanced to keep Trump in power and negate the voters’ choices must also accept the legitimacy of this move to deny a choice to voters despite its obvious foolishness. So I don’t want to hear any whining about it from the people who supported the Trump nonsense.
No, even criminals are entitled to the benefit of law. He is entitled to a fair hearing to dispute the allegations, however patent you may think his guilt. And a hearing that does not provide adequate Due Process protections is not sufficiently fair.
Did I say he wasn’t? I just don’t want to hear over the top whining about it.
Whining?
Good lord man, he will love this, you can't buy this kind of good publicity.
The "deep state" is out to get me, give me money!
I don’t care about him as much as people on here and elsewhere in the right-wing media ecosystem who are going to whine about it…
I welcome this kind of hysteria from your side.
Since it has zero chance of success, most people won't care or will mock it.
Nothing says "Defending democracy" quite like disqualifying people you dislike from running for office.
This is totes different than how Iran handles their elections in some ways. None come to mind, however...
That’s why I’m not defending this. Voters should be able to pick their morons. But I don’t care to hear that this is an attack on democracy from utter bad faith actors.
Yes, removing people you do not like from being voted upon is totally different than an attack on democracy. Completely different.
Who are you arguing with? Because it’s not me. This move is stupid and anti-democratic, just like every single Trumpist attempt to deprive people of their vote was.
Again, unsure where Trump fits into Democrats trying to disqualify people from running they do not like.
You can try and make this a BOAF SIDEZ issue, but it'd just make you look like a clown.
Again, unsure where Trump fits into Democrats trying to disqualify people from running they do not like.
You are being willfully obtuse. They literally tried to get courts to say people's votes in certain counties and states didn't count and Trump won instead of the person they voted for. Saying that your vote for this person doesn't count is the same as saying you can't vote for this person in the first place.
"They literally tried to get courts to say people's votes in certain counties and states didn't count and Trump won instead of the person they voted for."
They had challenges to some ballots. Truly shocking. That has not happened in literally every election ever.
"Saying that your vote for this person doesn't count is the same as saying you can't vote for this person in the first place."
Funny you concern yourselves with ballot challenges this one time and not, you know, every single time it has happened in history. Which is, literally, every single election.
Disqualifying ballots for not being valid is a common occurrence. I'm a bit perplexed why you find this so shocking.
damikesc
Did you read ANY of the pleadings in the election litigation? And look at the remedies they sought? Or the arguments to canvassing boards and state legislators? Like are you just being willfully blind about what they were doing? Or what the Republicans in Congress said? They weren't challenging a few ballots here and there....they were trying to throw out whole counties and classes of ballots.
Giuliani tried to invalidate every mail-in ballot in Pennsylvania.
One member of the WAyne County canvassing board was prepared to certify every town in Wayne County except Detroit (even though Livonia had more discrepancies)
Texas went to SCOTUS and claimed it had standing to get an injunction to stop other states from certifying their elections for Christ sake!!
We're talking millions of votes they wanted to go away. Jesus. Stop being so willfully obtuse about what was attempted.
It's not fraud if they fraudulently create millions of votes!
Actually, the former is worse. Removing Cawthorn from the ballot allows his supporters another choice. Throwing out votes for him after the fact means that his supporters wasted their votes.
We're not talking about challenging isolated ballots by claiming the person isn't eligible or the signature doesn't match or he failed to fill something out. We're talking about throwing out all the votes.
Too bad. "Over the top whining" is the default communication mode for every situation on all sides of everything.
Don’t like it? Start telling blues to stop it. Maybe someday, after a very, very long time of recruiting people and appealing to people to stop it, the trend will improve. Until then, get used to it:
Serious question: do you believe that right leaning people actually have personal agency?
Leftists set the bar for behavior low. They get to suffer in the rubble of the society they unmade (and are still tearing down). Too bad. Learn a lesson for the future.
Interesting. You somehow both didn't answer the question at all AND answered it in the negative. But I'll ask it a different way"
Are people on the right, including yourself, capable of independent thought and action that is not somehow traceable to the conduct of "the left."
Can you let us keep attacking while you stand down?
Yeah. Happened a lot in 2012. We learned from that mistake.
Haha, so used to be you were a thinking human, but you have resolved not anymore!
Haha!
Why can't you answer this question? Do you genuinely not believe you are capable of any independent thought or action that is not in reaction to something the left (supposedly) does?
I answered it. Yeah, anyone can do whichever.
People learned from last time. Expect behavior appropriate to the environment. As things change, expect changed behavior.
Lol. So you just react to things and don't have any independent basis for your actions. Points for self-awareness (sort of) I guess.
Versus leftists who never learn anything because they just make up and believe stories whenever events aren’t emotionally satisfying.
Versus leftists who never learn anything because they just make up and believe stories whenever events aren’t emotionally satisfying.
.....is this real life? Because that describes right-wing fever dreams about election fraud to a T. (Also many other right-wing fantasies)
Interesting that the only "over the top whining" so far is coming from, well, you.
It's correct and consistent.
Then put your fingers in your ears.
I appreciate that your considering due process here, but your suggestion that the candidate has to "dispute the allegations" is a guilty until proven innocent proposition. A congressional candidate having his age challenged can provide a birth certificate, or driver's license other records to refute non-residency. I would think anyone challenging on this grounds would have to do more than make such an allegation.
How does one disprove participation in an insurrection? Especially if the only accusation is public statements. That's criminalizing speech absent any due process. This is Alice Through the Looking Glass stuff.
If the allegations of insurrection are based on Cawthorn's objection to certifying the electoral vote then I think it's unconstitutional under the speech and debate clause. Any position he took as a representative "shall not be questioned in any other place."
I haven't seen anything that said he addressed the crowd or encouraged anyone to breech the Capitol. Merely questioning the electoral college vote which he is required to consider as part of his legislative responsibilities would definitely be covered by the speech and debate privilege.
You probably should have read the actual complaint to the NC Board of Elections before making this comment.
True, but irrelevant, since the case against him is vastly broader than that.
(It's regrettable, but true, that being a lying POS asshole isn't disqualifying, else Cawthorn wouldn't be close to qualifying.)
Including it as a count at all should cause the lawsuit to be tossed, but of course they can amend the complaint.
But of course the rest of of the lawsuit has a similar deficiency, if the statements he made are protected by the first amendment then those counts would be tossed to. I haven't seen anything he said that would be unprotected speech.
Allowing lawsuits that restricts constitutionally protected rights is wrong, I thought we all agreed with that when we were discussing SB 8.
That's not how law works.
Once again, not a lawsuit. A challenge presented to the NC board of elections, per NC state law.
Doesn’t matter. If Catherine’s actions were constitutionally protected, whether public speech, or legislative speech then the board of elections can’t sanction him.
You’d have to show Cathorne went beyond constitutionally protected speech, which I haven’t seen any evidence of.
By the way, I wouldn’t mind seeing a better candidate primary Cawthorne, and send him home. That’s the proper way to retire problematic politicians.
If Cawthorn's actions were constitutionally protected, he hasn't violated section 3 and is a valid candidate. That's the issue the board has to decide. The complaint alleges a number of actions that would not be constitutionally protected.
Sorry...Let me get this straight.
You don't want to hear about any "whining" from people about criminalizing politicians that you don't like, in order to keep them off the ballot and keeping your own party in power?
Is that accurate?
People in the “lock her up” crowd who tried to disenfranchise voters based on dumb theories and have continued to call elections officials criminals and traitors (including wanting them in jail! See Robin Vos) have Zero basis to whine about this. None. If you endorsed Trumpist lies and continue to, you can kindly spare us all the handwringing about criminalization because it comes from a place of utter bad faith.
The only whining I see here is from you.
So be it. It’s the correct and consistent view.
Let's start with this.
You need to make a fundamental difference between
1. Crimes that a politician commits that would put anyone else in prison.
2. "Crimes" which are almost never seen, but devised and prosecuted to put political malcontents and unwanted politicians in jail.
Hillary's crimes falls in the first category. Pushing confidential government information to your own, unsecure, server. Destruction of government records. Destruction of evidence. Many normal people had been prosecuted for "sending" confidential government information home.
The second category is being used here. "Insurrection" it's being called...despite it not even being close, nor charged in a single case. The "crime" is being invented to punish people of the opposition party, and it would never be applied in general. And in fact, the several times that actions like this occurred before (https://thefederalist.com/2022/01/07/8-times-left-wing-protesters-broke-into-government-buildings-and-assaulted-democracy/) it was rarely, if ever punished. And never as insurrection.
Utter bad faith actor offers more bad faith. I see you aren’t calling for any Trump people to be in jail for similar server misuse.
Feel free to provide examples.
Why is this bad faith? Maybe you should first give him the opportunity to weigh in on whether Trump people doing the same thing warrants a similar outcome? Instead of just assuming it, which is itself bad faith.
Of course the question would then become whether anything Trump people did was truly equivalent. Let's not conflate sending classified information through an unsecure server, versus just using a private server for government business. The former can be a serious felony, for which other little fish have been prosecuted. The latter, given recent history of non-prosecutions, has never warranted similar punishment.
The real problem with Hillary's server was how its investigation was carried out by a sympathetic administration and Justice Department, which did not seriously attempt to squeeze anyone in her circle (unlike the Mueller investigation or the Valerie Plame special counsel), and the facts that the server remnants were wiped while under subpoena.
To allay your fears of bad faith, I would certainly welcome the investigation of any bad behavior by Trump people with any similarity. Just like I welcome the Mueller investigation. That's how the rule of law is supposed to work. Perhaps the Justice Department can get on that right after they identify the real insurrectionists.
Why is this bad faith? I've seen his other comments.
Sorry, what server misuse?
Have other Trump people been keeping a private server at home, and having all their confidential government e-mail and messages sent to it, and not to the government run account?
I'd love to know
Yes, if you include private phones as a functional equivalent.
So, let me get this straight.
Trump administration officials have been having confidential, classified information sent not to their government e-mail accounts, which is properly recorded and backed up, but to a private server that is somehow on their phone?
They used burner phones to do official business.
Trump insisted on his private phone security concerns bedamned.
And you may want to look up the timeline of classification of stuff Hillary e-mailed.
Burner phones were only their recommendation to the Jan 06 rioters. But they sure did like to use private phones.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/21/their-emails-seven-members-trumps-team-have-used-unofficial-communications-tools/
What issues arise with what Hillary did that don't arise from what Trump's people did?
"They used burner phones to do official business."
While I suppose Page and Strzok were employed by the feds while Trump was President, it's a bit of a stretch to call them "Trump administration officials".
"Burner phones"....someone's been reading too many spy novels.
But it seems like that's a "No" from everything you've linked.
No, Trump administration officials have not been having confidential, classified information to a private server that is somehow on their phone?
Occasional non-classified private e-mail use is fine and legal, even according to the Washington Post. "That by itself isn’t illegal, as long as the records are preserved in accordance with the Presidential Records Act"
Having every single e-mail for government business, including the confidential classified e-mails sent to your private server, and then deleting the majority of them before they can be archived or examined.....that's illegal.
As well, despite Comey's statements, it's a strict liability offense.
Armchair Lawyer, what you describe didn't happen.
You need to delve into fiction because otherwise, what Trump and his people and his family did was as bad or worse.
As I described in another post here (addressing bad faith), choosing to focus on using private phones to conduct government business, absent any indication it might have involved classified material, which is the greater offense committed by Hillary with her private server, may also qualify as bad faith.
I'll say again that anyone who used private phones to conduct government business should be investigated and/or punished consistent with prior abuses for that offense. Lock them all up, as the kids say.
Violating the Espionage Act is a much more serious offense, and smaller fish have been punished far more severely and consistently for that. Not often actually prosecuted under the act, but the threat of prosecution yielding a plea deal.
"Armchair Lawyer, what you describe didn't happen"
Yeah, it did. Luckily, there's no evidence because Hillary and her team conveniently had the time to BleachBit it all.
What do you think about a presidential campaign that invented a bogus story about Russian collusion, sold it to the intelligence community, and ran with it for 4 straight years in an attempt to delegitimize and possibly remove a duly elected President?
Does that count as voter disenfranchisement? Or do Trump voters not count?
Trump voters got what they wanted: he won. Votes for him counted. Then he tried to actually negate votes for his opponent in the next election, literally. He didn't make up stories. He asked courts to appoint him the winner. He pressured canvassing boards to not certify counties. He asked Secretaries of state to "find" votes. He asked Congress people and his vice president to simply reject electoral votes. He literally tried to cancel votes.
Also you should read the Rubio led, Tom Cotton endorsed Senate Intelligence Committee Report on Russian contacts with the Trump campaign and its efforts to influence the 2016 election. While conclusion wasn't proved, they didn't think it was invented. I mean Manafort was in significant communication with Russian intelligence agents.
Yeah, man, Manafort gave a Russkie polling data he could have looked up on RealClear or 538. That's COLLUSION.
"criminalizing politicians"
How did criminalization become relevant? Is anyone saying "lock her up" with respect to Rep. Cawthorn? Or is someone simply attempting to enforce a constitutional provision against an apt candidate for such a determination?
Carry on, clingers. Maybe just try to walk this one off.
In your mind, who has the power to make or change election procedures/rules?
State Legislators exclusively?
Unelected bureaucrats exclusively?
State Legislators except certain circumstances then it’s bureaucrats, and the contexts must be compelling like needing to fortify elections, reduce white supremacy, or for public health reasons like infections or gun violence?
State election law is a complex array of state constitutional, statutory, and administrative law that must be read against the federal constitutional and statutory backdrop regarding the right to vote.
You can't use the complexity to simply ignore electoral outcomes after the fact and use other means to install your preferred candidate.
That’s not an answer.
It actually is. You just don't like it for some reason.
I don't like it because it's not an answer to the question posed.
I asked you who controls the levers, you responded with some argument about complexity.
The constitution is pretty explicit. You should try checking it out, it's kinda neat.
No, you presented a false choice.
There is zero chance that SCOTUS tells Congress how to determine the eligibility of its own members.
See also "deem and pass" of Obamacare.
"There is a hope that some court, somewhere, finds that Section 3 is justiciable, and concludes that there was an insurrection. Those legal and factual predicates will grease the skids to keep Trump off the ballot."
Well, I'm glad you're not letting your political preferences color your interpretation of the merits here.
Blackman is on record as saying Section 3 doesn't apply to Trump. His use of "hope" in this context is from the perspective of other people who think Trump can be disqualified under Section 3.
I mean, I'm sure Prof. Blackman wouldn't mind the news cycles that the case would generate, since it might give him a shot to appear for a 40 second segment on Newsmax hawking his pro-Trump theory.
I sense another Newsweek appearance!
And entry 4,327 on someone's resume.
Yeah, I mis-read that as him reporting his own hope, rather than somebody else's. My apology to him.
Ok, maybe this is dumb....but: Has anyone actually been charged with insurrection or rebellion in connection with January 6th?
Don't you actually need a conviction on insurrection or rebellion for this to even apply?
Nope.
"The number of people killed by pro-Trump supporters at the January 6 Capitol riot is equal to the number of pro-Trump supporters who brandished guns or knives inside the Capitol. That is the same number as the total of Americans who — after a full year of a Democrat-led DOJ conducting what is heralded as “the most expansive federal law enforcement investigation in US history” — have been charged with inciting insurrection, sedition, treason or conspiracy to overthrow the government as a result of that riot one year ago. Coincidentally, it is the same number as Americans who ended up being criminally charged by the Mueller probe of conspiring with Russia over the 2016 election, and the number of wounds — grave or light — which AOC, who finally emerged at night to assure an on-edge nation that she was “okay" while waiting in an office building away from the riot at the rotunda, sustained on that solemn day."
https://greenwald.substack.com/p/the-histrionics-and-melodrama-around
The mission is to criminalize the actions of the GOP because Democrats can't win on actual issues.
Dems have nothing to offer anyone except fear of bogeymen.
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-business-health-iowa-legislature-4568e82e95b9528929af7472cbbdb5ff
LOL
Except that’s actually really happening.
It's not paranoia if everyone is out to get me.
You laugh as if it’s not working. Huge numbers of people are now homeschooling and local people are getting energized to run for school boards and be active in local elections.
Lots of previously disengaged parents feel betrayed by school closures and have noticed that schools don’t seem interested in serving the community or the welfare of the kids.
No. I'm laughing at you thinking Dems have the monopoly on boogeymen.
Bogeymen have been a topic since time began. It’s just that Dems have only fear of bogeymen to offer.
Lol. And universal healthcare, expanded childcare credit, universal pre-K, free community college, plans to address climate change, prison reform, drug law reform, etc etc.
pie in the sky stuff
Only because the GOP has become knee-jerk anti whatever Dems want.
Besides, broad goals are what a party is supposed to have. You can't know the exact form of the sausage till the sausage is made.
The fact that you don't realize this says a lot about the rot in the GOP.
Yawn. The usual demonization: the other is keeping us from the perfect utopia we could so easily have!
Not saying it's a utopia, I'm just noting that you are the cause of the problem you blame the Dems for.
And also that it's not a problem. Read any party platform in the past century. Pie in the sky is pretty common.
Meanwhile, the GOP has failed to have a platform. Which you don't seem to care about.
Okay. But that certainly negates your point that Dems ONLY offer boogeymen, right?
Ben, in the last election the GOP didn't offer a platform.
Your side is the one without substance other than anti-Dem.
Heck, look at your own posts. How many of them are about anything other than stopping or hating Democrats?
No, actually they did have a platform; They readopted the 2016 platform without changes.
You do understand that the GOP establishment did that to prevent Trump from having any chance to make changes to it, right? That was an anti-Trump move by the GOPe, not something Trump supporters wanted.
They readopted the 2016 platform without changes.
Which sends a message I'm pretty sure we all pick up.
As to your GOP establishment conspiracy, I leave you to your paranoia.
Trump owns the GOP. There is no GOP establishment anymore.
There's no public anti-Trump GOP establishment anymore, to be sure. That doesn't mean they wouldn't gladly shove a knife in his back if they could avoid their fingerprints being found on it.
Tax reform, wall, Middle East peace treaties signed, isis defeated, North Korea handled, Iran tamed, US-Canada-Mexico trade agreement, sentencing reform, lowest unemployment since the 1960s, lowest minority unemployment ever, vaccine 300% faster than ever before, reopening, children allowed to attend school, progress toward US manufacturing partial resurgence, US energy independence, border crisis solved, etc., etc.
Not pie in the sky stuff. Actual Orange man accomplishments. Biden hasn’t even been able to undo them all yet.
This is not a platform. But it is telling.
"This is not a platform. "
What century are you in?
In this century, party platforms are completely meaningless. Meaningless since the TV age started really but on death's door before that, budget cuts were part of FDR's platform for instance.
Its not Trump's party either, it Trump's voter's party. The GOP changed because the former establishment was not responsive to its changing support, only interested in tax cuts.
AcTuAl AccOmPlIsHmeNtS aRe NoT a PlAtFoRm
" Democrats can't win on actual issues "
Democrats hold the White House, the House, and the Senate.
Democrats lead in our successful, advanced, educated, modern states and communities, often with token Republican opposition (not so much in lesser states and backwater communities).
Republicans have earned the popular vote from Americans in
national elections precisely once in roughly 30 years.
Democrats have been winning on the issues -- stomping Republicans into whimpering submission -- in the American culture war for more than a half-century, leaving conservatives a dispirited, disaffected, defeated, delusional pile of losers.
Other than that, though, great comment!
AL, that's an interesting position for you to take since the GOP mostly holds power through anti-democratic institutions like the electoral college and two senators per state. If those anti-democratic institutions went away, so, for the most part, would the GOP. So maybe "actual issues" aren't the reason the Democrats have trouble winning.
The US is not a democracy.
And? Why shouldn't it be?
No reason at all. Nor any reason why it shouldn't be a communist dictatorship, or a military junta. All you have to do it go through the hoops to change the Constitution accordingly.
And so? I never claimed it was. I was simply making the point that since it isn't, election results are not a terribly great indicator of popular opinion.
"that's an interesting position for you to take since the GOP mostly holds power through anti-democratic institutions"
The Constitution itself is an anti-democratic institution. It limits what the majority can do.
Limiting what the majority can do is not actually the same as giving the minority total power.
The minority has never had total power. Let me guess, you believe Manchin is the only reason Biden's agenda is not passing, not that 50 OTHER Senators oppose it.
You might want to call a lid to today. You're losing the plot.
If you compare the number of voters represented by the 49 who support it (48 if you also exclude Sinema), to the number of voters represented by the 50 who oppose it, you'll see the ones who support it actually represent majority popular opinion.
If the Senate represented the populace and not the states, you would have a point.
But it does not and you do not.
Sorry the Constitution is not to your liking.
And you seem to have missed the point I was actually making. I was responding to AL's claim that Democrats pull stunts because they can't win democratic elections. To which my response is: Give us elections that actually are democratic and you might be surprised.
Whether elections should be democratic is a separate issue. But you can't fairly claim that Democrats are out of touch with the voters when under our system, majority opinion is largely irrelevant.
The elections are democratic. They operate under certain rules, as according to a constitutional federal republic
As pointed out, you and your team don't seem to want true democracy of a direct democracy. You'd prefer to alter the rules for a temporarily advantage.
Operating under certain rules does not make elections democratic. The former Soviet Union had elections that operated under certain rules too.
Elections are democratic when everyone’s vote counts as much as everyone else’s vote.
Not sure you can actually say having the people of the states vote in democratic elections for senators is "anti-democratic".
It is when 400,000 Wyoming voters get to cancel out 30 million Californians.
They don't "cancel out". And there aren't 30 million Californian voters.
You have equal representation in the Senate for two states. In the House, it's by population. We live in a Constitutional representative Democracy. Not a perfect, pure direct democracy. With that come certain compromises.
Did you know that there were over a million GOP voters in Massachusetts in 2020? More than 30% of the state? Want to take a guess how much representation these voters have in Congress? It's still a democracy, just not a perfect pure democracy.
It is when the Senate is malapportioned and the majority of the Senate doesn't represent the majority of the country or anything close to it.
I mean all two people in borough of Old Sarum got to vote for members of the House of Commons... still not democratic.
So, you're saying the current Senate majority doesn't represent the majority of the country?
Correct. If it did, it would be larger.
LOL....
Total Votes for GOP Senate Candidates in 2016, 2018 and 2020: 115,364,239
Total Votes for Dem Senate Candidates in 2016, 2018 and 2020: 141,552,752
This is relevant...how?
The Senate is a body of STATES, not PEOPLE. Every state is equal in the Senate.
You have the House to represent the people.
I'm just amused that when I said the current Senate Majority doesn't represent the majority of the country, you said "correct".
In addition to needing the Senate to pass laws, it also has sole authority on appointments, treaty-making, and removal. I don't see why "states" which are collections of people anyway, get all that power while "people" just get representation. It's a stupid system that entrenches minority rule as opposed to popular will and we should get rid of it.
""I don't see why "States"...."
It's in the title. The United "States" of America.
Not the United Congressional Districts of America
Because it literally doesn't. If it did, there would be many more democratic senators.
I'm thinking he is arguing to repeal the 17th Amendment.
No. Abolish the Senate or at least turn it into some kind of body that is actually representative of the country.
In that case, dissolve the country, and see if the independent states want to join your new one. Bet most of 50 states won't want to join a country where 9 states run the whole ball of wax.
They do now? Or have you failed to notice that Presidential candidates only campaign in a few states?
"It is when the Senate is malapportioned"
The body is DESIGNED to represent STATES, not PEOPLE.
Feel free to provide a different way to apportion with that in mind.
Indeed. It's a federal system. A union of states. Each state gets equal representation in the Senate. Each Senator is democratically elected by the citizens of the state.
Well states are made of people. Senators have represented people the entire time....state legislator elections often turned on who would be appointed Senator. Why do you think Lincoln and Douglass had public debates to influence public opinion? I mean that would be unnecessary if the "State" somehow had singular interests distinct from "the people" who inhabit it that could manifest itself in the appointment of a Senator to be a perfect avatar of those interests.
"Feel free to provide a different way to apportion with that in mind."
Okay. Abolish the Senate and turn each state into at-large districts with proportional representation for a unicameral House of Representatives. There, fixed it.
"Why do you think Lincoln and Douglass had public debates to influence public opinion?"
To have their party win the majority in the state and then name them to the Senate. They were not campaigning for themselves at all.
"Okay. Abolish the Senate and turn each state into at-large districts with proportional representation for a unicameral House of Representatives. There, fixed it."
Sure. Propose a Constitutional Convention. And then find a way to get 3/4 of the states to go along with your moronic scheme.
Why do that? Why not just do direct democracy. Each person votes individually on each individual bill.
What if I told you that you can have a middle ground between a direct pure democracy and having a mal-apportioned system where minority parties have a complete veto power on what the majority wants in all circumstances? Just because we don't want or need direct democracy doesn't mean there aren't better more democratic methods for representative democracy. A lot of countries have figured that out.
"What if I told you that..."
I would say that you're quibbling for political gain. "Go this far...but no farther. If you go farther, then I won't have the political gain I want".
And I would say you are defending a manifestly unjust system because your side wields disproportionate power in that system and you're scared of losing it.
It's not "unjust" at all. It's the same rules we've been operating by for the last 200 plus years. A constitutional federal republic
When you want to change the rules, but only so far as to advantage your side...and no farther...I laugh. You don't care about democracy. You just care about changing the rules so you can win.
What you call moronic is actually a good system used in many developed democracies, including the UK. (The House of Lords can't actually completely stop the House of Commons or control so its barely bicameral).
"Abolish the Senate and turn each state into at-large districts with proportional representation for a unicameral House of Representatives."
Do it. Amend the Constitution and we will live with it.
Should be easy.
Have to amend Article V first, because it prohibits that particular amendment unless every state agrees to it.
Prohibits unequal representation: everyone can have the same number of senators: zero
Or alternatively: amend the constitution to remove senatorial power over appointments, treaties, removal and legislation. You can have a Senate...it just won't do anything, much like the House of Lords.
Right, you can amend the Constitution to eliminate the Senate. If you tried replacing the Senate with a new chamber that wasn't set up the same way, with just one amendment, you'd be skating on thin ice.
The real problem is why 40 states would be expected to ratify an amendment guaranteeing that they'd never matter again at the federal level.
"Prohibits unequal representation: everyone can have the same number of senators: zero
Or alternatively: amend the constitution to remove senatorial power over appointments, treaties, removal and legislation. You can have a Senate...it just won't do anything, much like the House of Lords."
Again, just propose the Constitutional Convention and get 3/4 of the states to go along with the plan.
I say a Convention because there is, literally, zero chance it would pass thru Congress.
In plea agreements subject to the sentencing guidelines the US Attorney has generally reserved the right to ask for a terrorism sentencing enhancement but has yet to actually ask for one. Technically breaking a window in a federal building with intent to influence government conduct or retaliate against the government is terrorism. But remember the 1990s -- the Clinton administration tried to crack down on dissent and ended up with the Waco bombing. I think the Biden administration doesn't want to provoke a real uprising.
See https://www.politico.com/news/2022/01/04/doj-domestic-terrorism-sentences-jan-6-526407 for more discussion.
OK bombing, I think you meant? The only bombing at Waco was the government's incendiary riot gas.
So far they've been extracting plea agreements for time served, the people are buying escape from the gulag by confessing after a struggle session, and the government doesn't have to risk a trial with embarrassing discovery. They do have a few people who they can prove did something more than trespass and take some selfies, and they even bothered arresting some of them. Those are looking to produce real trials. Some day.
Discovery is not incident to trial; it is furnished well in advance of trial and typically in advance of plea negotiations. Do you have evidence that DOJ is not complying with its discovery obligations for fear of embarrassment?
Now We Know What Cops Were Doing on Jan. 6: DOJ Caught Withholding Game-Changing Evidence
They've been using the volume of the evidence as an excuse to deny defendants access to it; They can't be allowed access until it's property sorted. Current estimates are that the defense won't have access to everything the government has for perhaps another year.
Duh, yeah, Oklahoma City bombing which was preceded by Waco and Ruby Ridge.
As for discovery, I can't see what would be relevant enough to disclose and severely embarrassing to the government. You would have some video of people peacefully walking past building security who had given up trying to stop the crowd. But that's in the public record, and the government has ackowledged in plea agreements that some of the entries were peaceful. Unarmed defendants in those cases were likely to get a plea to misdemeanor demonstrating or to trespassing. (Picketing, demonstrating, carrying battle flags, and the like are illegal in the Capitol building whether or not your grievance is justified.)
You had, as I understand it, people who seemed to actually be invited in.
But I think the main concern is actually the "Hey, this guy is doing much worse than me, why didn't you charge HIM with anything?" sort of embarrassment. They've already got that with a couple of people identified on public video, such as Epps, who was clearly inciting people to attack the Capitol from the front steps, or that less clearly identified guy who was clearing away the signs indicating that entry was prohibited.
IOW, they may be blocking evidence of FBI informant complicity.
They may be trying to avoid any of these questions being brought up in a court, and answers compelled.
Rank conjecture and speculation as to any FBI informants. And a prosecutor´s decision not to charge someone is nonreviewable. But why let that prevent the red herring from being dragged across the trail?
I'm reminded of Matthew Lyon, Congressman from Vermont. Imprisoned for violating the sedition act in 1798. And nonetheless, elected to Congress, despite being imprisoned for the "crime" of not agreeing with the ruling party. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Lyon#Imprisonment_for_sedition
Leftists pretend to care about democracy while simultaneously trying to make ballot access exclusive.
This is quite the excluded middle.
Arguing that there are some conditions under which candidacies are disallowed is very different from ballot access being exclusive.
I don't think this lawsuit flies at all, but you are doing some impressive work 1) generalizing based on it, and 2) mischaracterizing what it's calling for.
So Kamala aided and abetted the daily attack on our cities last year. This has included groups attacking federal buildings and taking over a section of a US city. Should she be removed from office.
Can we start with BLM's claim that young black man are being targeted in the streets by police because of their skin color. No evidence of that based on statistics
Oh wait its only one political viewpoint we wish to prosecute
Most of the time non-leftists know better than try to charge people with political crimes. And non-leftists have other things to do besides trying to destroy people and tear things down most of the time.
If I'm following Prof. Blackman's position correctly, no one has the authority to evaluate a congressional candidate's formal qualifications until after the candidate wins the election?
I find that surprising.
Maybe there is a problem with standing down the road, to challenge just such a candidate.
The problem right now is that the disqualifying factor hasn't been adjudicated/authenticated anywhere. If a candidate had a conviction for insurrection by a competent tribunal (including a military commission or was paroled as a POW aka in the Civil War) that would be one thing. I think a voter could then file a complaint with local election officials and/or go to a court (federal or state) and seek to enforce section 3, similar to any other disqualifying factor (like age, citizenship etc). How do those things get resolved?
Doing so without that disqualification established is putting the cart before the horse.
The adjudicatory process is created by the applicable North Carolina statutes. The challengers have the initial burden of showing reasonable suspicion as to the candidate´s disqualification, at which point the burden shifts to the candidate to show by a preponderance of evidence that he is qualified to serve if elected.
I don't think that's quite right. Congress has the authority after they win, but prior to that you could probably "evaluate" them with a criminal trial on actual insurrection charges.
Nothing requires a criminal trial. No one is at risk of incarceration or being fined.
I skimmed Derek Muller's paper, mostly searching for the word year to catch the less ambiguous age qualification. My conclusion is states are often lax when enforcing constitutional requirements, but there is no clear legal barrier to their doing so.
Contrary to the headline here ("Lawsuit Filed") the only action reported is an administrative complaint. A similar complaint was filed in one of the southern states against that Kenyan Muslim guy in 2012. The conclusion was his American birth certificate was facially valid and the objector had no expert testimony to the contrary.
In his blog, Muller says:
That is what Muller says. He offers no support for his contention that it isn't the state's place to exclude such candidates, at least in the post. He wrote a longer paper on the subject, and perhaps he does there.
If I had to bet money on it, my bet would be this lawsuit does not survive a motion to dismiss. Which is kind of a shame because it would have been interesting to hear what the pro-insurrection wing of the GOP has to say in its defense, other than attempts at ghosting.
The defense is the truth, no insurrection occurred.
No. Just a mob of people led on by lies about election fraud trying to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power in an attempt to keep the clear loser of an election in power by extra-legal means.
What if one wasn’t led by lies but saw a bunch of incredibly sus stuff and drew their own conclusions?
You know, empirically?
Then you're just stupid and don't realize you're stupid. I mean even "audits" staffed by true believers couldn't come up with anything.
You don't get to say empirically and also 'incredibly sus.'
Well you do, but no one is going to take you seriously.
In what way did they disrupt anything?
It's not like Trump did not offer up Nat'l Guard and was turned down.
In what way did they disrupt anything?
Is this a serious question?
Yes. They were as disruptive as the Leftists who sought to disrupt the swearing in of Kavanaugh. Which is not a concern for you, mind you.
Election “fortifying”, Russia Hoax Coup Attempters should be in prison not tweeting their anti-Democracy plans.
What rereg are you? You're pretty boring.
No talk about mestizo IQ or anal sex, so we know who it's not.
It's hilarious how rampant member guy couldn't control himself with his rereges.
WTH is rereg, Sarcastr0?
A reregistration.
A previous commenter who has returned under a different name, generally to avoid mutings or a ban.
Hmmm...never knew that. Thx for the info.
What's next, you telling us about your Trump Russian collusion conspiracies, Blue Anon?
I doubt that this lawsuit will succeed in keeping Rep. Madison Cawthorn from the ballot, but should it go forward it seem it will likely force him to reveal more of his involvement in what happened on January 6th. While he can stonewall the House's Select Committee on the events of January 6th, he cannot stonewall a court. Likewise while the Select Committee can be stopped by Republican's taking the House in 2022, the court case can continue.
If I am not mistaken, I believe the House and the Senate both have rules where they can vote 'not' to seat an elected member. That happened in the aftermath of the Civil War on numerous occasions. The Congress can do so here as well. They can vote to deny a seat.
I am not clear on why the courts are being used when a much more direct path can be taken.
Probably because this isn't in the context of a civil war with half the states under military rule. Which makes telling a state that their elected representative won't be seated a bit dicey.
Well I dunno....the accusation is this guy was part of an insurrection in some manner. If that is really the case, the Congress can vote not to seat him. I don't think there is a prohibition on the House or Senate doing that. It would be extreme, though.
There isn't a legal obstacle to it, it's just politically explosive for them to do it.
Maybe the Court will say 'Political Question' and send it to Congress to adjudicate, where it belongs it seems to me.
The matter is not before a court. It is before the North Carolina State Board of Elections, which is obliged to appoint a five member hearing panel. An adverse ruling is appealable to the North Carolina Court of Appeals.
It's not a lawsuit, it's a Notice of Candidacy Challenge before the North Carolina State Board of Elections per NC state law.
From the text of the challenge itself:
Under North Carolina law, when a challenger provides “reasonable suspicion or belief” of facts establishing that a candidate “does not meet the constitutional . . . qualifications for the office,” then “[t]he burden of proof shall be upon the candidate” to “show by a preponderance of the evidence . . . that he or she is qualified to be a candidate for the office.” N.C. GEN. STAT. §§ 163-127.2(b), 163- 127.5(a).
The lack of any charges of insurrection is the preponderence of evidence.
The word evidence doesn´t mean what you seem to think it means.
The lack of a single charge of insurrection indicates the government does not actually feel there was an insurrection.
If that is the standard the people empaneled by the NC Board of Elections chooses to use, then I suppose they will throw out the challenge. We'll see what happens.
You can exclude whomever you want from Congress, even exclude entire States from representation. Filing a lawsuit isn't the way to do it, you just do it by force. For precedent, ironically, examine the origin of the 14th amendment and how it was never constitutionally ratified.
Once again, not a lawsuit. A challenge per North Carolina State election law.
Gotcha.
The 14th Amendment was legitimately ratified, even though some States were coerced. The 13th Amendment was a term of surrender. The Bill of Rights was adopted in part because it was a condition of multiple States' ratification of the Constitution. It's not unusual for some form of coercion to be involved in the Article V amendment process.
"We won't ratify that thing unless there's a bill of rights." is a whole different meaning of "coercion" than "Soldiers standing in the legislative chamber, and anybody who votes "no" immediately gets replaced".
The 13th amendment was constitutionally ratified, the 14th was not.
Found this diatribe:
The Last Time the D.C. Establishment Labeled its Political Opposition as “Insurrectionists” (And How It Taught Them About “National Unity”)
The Washington establishment, led by a senile 78-year-old man who can barely speak in complete sentences and seems permanently fighting mad, is hell- bent on labeling virtually all Americans who voted for President Trump –Republicans, Independents, and Democrats — as “insurrectionists.” They have invoked the Insurrection Act of 1807 to justify placing thousands of heavily-armed National Guard (and other) troops in Washington, D.C., who appear to be stationed there indefinitely. Comrade Pelosi, who turns 81 next month and also seems demented, always angry as hell, and extremely frustrated that she is not a dictator, has called for the placement of manned machine gun nests atop the Capitol building. She is apparently worried that Trump voters might try to create their own version of one of those mass anti-Trump rallies in D.C. that she orchestrated in early 2017, way back when peaceful assembly and freedom of association were still legal and not acts of “insurrection.” All of this is supposedly being done in the name of warm-and-fuzzy “national unity.”
This political spectacle reminds your author of how the D.C. establishment dealt with “insurrectionists” in the Southern states in the 1860s, particularly in South Carolina. The “crime” that these “insurrectionists” were said to be guilty of was agreeing with the founding fathers that the American union was a voluntary union of the free and independent states and not a coerced union held together by violence — like the Soviet Union of the twentieth century.
Many Americans know a little something – very little — about General William Tecumseh Sherman’s “march to the sea” through Georgia, an orgy of rape, pillage, plunder, and murder of civilians and the bombing and burning of entire cities occupied only by old men, women, and children. We are all taught to know as little as possible about it because as Sherman famously said, “war is hell.” “Move along, nothing to see here” is the meaning of Sherman’s famous quip. Of course such a nonchalant attitude made it more likely that there would be more orgies of rape, pillage, plunder and murder by the U.S. government, and there were, all over the world, over the past 150 years... Article
Cue the ad hominem and vitriol... 🙂
I remember very well learning about Sherman's March to the Sea and the consequences. We learned about Sherman's bow-ties, that is heating railroad tracks and then wrapping them around trees. I would say that Sherman's techniques were on the order of the Roman army's plowing the Carthaginian's fields with salt. Interesting fact is that Sherman stopped at Savanna and never destroyed that city.
In contrast I never really learned that Confederate soldier's murdered any black union soldier captured. A fact we would today see as a war crime.
"In contrast I never really learned that Confederate soldier's murdered any black union soldier captured. A fact we would today see as a war crime."
Well it's a common thing to "learn" falsities, but it's good you didn't learn this one, unfortunately sounds like you "learned" it later on.
"Sherman’s army was not noble, heroic, and on the moral side of history, as you were no doubt taught in public school (and in most private schools). This is because in war, the victors always get to write the history, erect statues to themselves, whitewash their war crimes, and endlessly demonize their defeated enemies, all as a giant smokescreen for their own crimes.
For example, you probably never heard of a December 7, 1861 article in the New York Tribune, the Republican party’s paper of record, quoted by Stokes, about how “one enterprising and unscrupulous [U.S. Army] officer was caught in the act of assembling a cargo of Negroes for transportation and sale in Cuba.” Or that “no colored woman was safe from the brutal lusts of the [U.S. Army] soldiers” who were “not punished for their offenses.”
Sherman himself was a notorious racist and white supremacist who would spend twenty-five years after the war orchestrating the mass murder of the Plains Indians to prevent America, in his words, from becoming “a nation of mongrels like Mexico” through inter-racial marriage between whites, blacks, and Indians. His “soldiers” were mostly of the same mind. “Sherman’s soldiers stole from [Southern black people], destroyed their property, and taunted them with racial slurs,” writes Stokes. She quotes Union Army General Oliver O. Howard, Sherman’s second in command, as remarking how the “soldiers” were routinely “abusing [black] women,” something he apparently did not lift a finger to stop.
Sherman’s expedition through South Carolina was defined by “arson and pillage” and “also murder,” writes Stokes. The worst war crimes were committed during the burning of Columbia, South Carolina. Most of the city was destroyed by fire, with nothing left but the “smokeless chimney’s” from burned down houses; all private homes were plundered; women of both races were gang raped; all livestock was either stolen or killed; and slaves were tortured with hangman’s nooses to force them to reveal where the family had hidden any valuables, with many of them being murdered in that way. As one eye witness account described what happened to a slave named Frank: “Each of the three times that this man [a U.S. Army “soldier”] suspended poor Frank in the air he would let him down and try to make him confess. Not knowing anything, of course he could not give the coveted information. Frank’s neck remains twisted to this day.” This Savior of the Southern Black People then said to the woman: “Madame, if you do not tell me in five minutes where your silver is buried I will set fire to your home.” No wonder Southerners no longer wanted to be in a union with people like that.
North Carolina was not spared, either. Stokes quotes a North Carolina man as saying: “When Sherman’s army passed through my place in North Carolina, some of his camp followers, in their greedy search for treasure, entered the graveyard, dug up my dead children, opened their coffins, and left their bodies exposed to birds and beast, lest vile than they.” Stokes writes of how grave robbing seems to have been rampant among Lincoln’s “army of liberation” that was primarily concerned with liberating Southerners from their silverware.
The Library of Congress possesses a manuscript collection of first-hand accounts of Sherman’s “marches.” One of them, known as the “McCarter Journal,” was written by James Jefferson McCarter, a native of Columbia. In it he wrote that in the aftermath of the burning down of his city, “the bodies of several females were found in the morning of Saturday stripped naked & with only such marks of violence upon them as would indicate the most detestable of crimes . . . the town seemed abandoned to the unrestrained license of the half drunken soldiery to gratify their base passions on the unprotected females of both colors.” As was his custom, Sherman blamed this on the residents of Columbia, lecturing them that “there was too much liquor in your town.”
Sherman surely knew of these gang rapes and murders by his bummers, and may even have explicitly condoned it, thinking that once word got out there would be more desertions of Confederate soldiers heading home to protect their wives, daughters, mothers, and sisters from Lincoln’s army of rapists and murderers."
You should probably disclose the fact that you're plagiarizing noted Neoconfederate Thomas DiLorenzo here.
¨The ´crime´ that these ´insurrectionists´ were said to be guilty of was agreeing with the founding fathers that the American union was a voluntary union of the free and independent states and not a coerced union held together by violence[.]¨
Well, there was that matter of treason in service of human chattel slavery.
That was not a crime they were said to be guilty of. Lincoln offered to enshrine slavery in the Constitution and make it "express and irrevocable" if the money and power (i.e. "the Union") could be preserved.
The founding fathers did not hold that view, so nobody who does could be "agreeing with" them.
I don't find the arguments of Muller and Blackman very convincing. The state isn't "adding qualifications" to candidates for Congress, it is enforcing those qualifications laid out in the text of the constitution. Congress is certainly given the power to assess the qualifications of an elected member, and expel if necessary. But does that preclude the state from also assessing qualifications?
Perhaps the challenge is specious and Cawthorn didn't do the things alleged. Of course that's an entirely different question. But it seems to me a state has not only a right but a requirement to follow US Constitutional stricture.
Oh, sure. It's all about the standard of proof, and which end of the spectrum does it fall at? Unsupported allegations, vs full criminal trial with a presumption of innocence?
I've seen a lot of otherwise smart people arguing that it's the former, because they know they haven't got a chance if it's the latter.
Do you surmise that a full criminal trial is required? On what basis? No one is trying to incarcerate or fine Rep. Cawthorn.
Are you just making up shit as you go along?
You're trying to enforce an actual penalty.
That's true, and so if the decision is made that Cawthorn can't appear on the ballot, he would have standing in state and federal court. My guess is that it won't reach that stage, unless the challengers take the case there. Would they have standing, I wonder?
Interesting; check out Secs 14 and 15 of the Civil Rights Act of 1870.
Sec. 15 provided criminal penalties for holding office contrary to Amendment 14(3).
Sec. 14 provided for quo warranto actions against people holding office contrary to 14(3) - except for Congress members and state legislators, to whom the quo warranto provision didn't apply.
I'm citing this though I don't think it's on the books any more - still, it gives an example of contemporaneous construction.
https://home.ubalt.edu/id86mp66/BeyondConfed/Force%20Act%20_%20Civil%20Rights%201870.pdf
The notice of candidacy challenge before the North Carolina State Board of Elections is here. https://reason.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/nc-14.3-complaint-cawthorn-final-2022-01-10-1.pdf The procedures described therein are prescribed by North Carolina statutes, and the proceedings thereunder should have no collateral effect on Donald Trump, who is not a party and who doesn´t have an opportunity to be heard.
Reasonable suspicion, a low bar to clear, shifts the burden of proof by a preponderance of evidence to Rep. Cawthorn to show that he meets the qualifications for the office he seeks. The complaint appears to be sufficient to allow the challengers to depose Rep. Cawthorn and request subpoenas for witnesses and documents.
Whether the procedures specified by North Carolina law comport with Fourteenth Amendment procedural due process guaranties would be determined by the three part test of Mathews v. Eldridge, 424 U.S. 319, 335 (1976), which considers first, the private interest that will be affected by the official action; second, the risk of an erroneous deprivation of such interest through the procedures used, and the probable value, if any, of additional or substitute procedural safeguards; and, finally, the Government's interest, including the function involved and the fiscal and administrative burdens that the additional or substitute procedural requirement would entail.
The right to run for office is an important private interest. The North Carolina statutes offer the challenged candidate ample procedural safeguards to minimize the risk of a wrongful deprivation: a hearing before a panel of five county board members from the counties within the district, pre-hearing discovery including depositions and subpoenas, evidence by affidavits and witness testimony under oath “from any person with information concerning the subject of the
challenge,” consistent with the state’s rules of evidence, a preponderance of evidence standard of proof, and appeal from
any adverse decisions to the North Carolina Court of Appeals and beyond. The probable value of additional or substitute procedural safeguards is negligible. The question for the hearing panel´s determination is defined by the Constitution -- whether Rep. Cawthorn, after taking an oath to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.
This should be interesting.
I think the hearing needed would be at least a civil trial and indeed perhaps more akin to a criminal one. A Section 3 disability hearing would seem more akin to a sterilization proceeding (being deprived of ALL future children) than a mere parental rights termination proceeding (merely being deprived of only a current one).
The lack of provision for a de novo trial in a trial court seems a significant problem, despite the right of appeal from the panel of board members to the Court of Appeals.
I am doubtful that an administrative procedure is adequate to adjudicate a Section accusation.
Article I, Section 4 provides ¨The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Places of chusing Senators.¨
This vests discretion in the North Carolina legislature, so long as conditions not prescribed in the Constitution itself are not added.
¨A Section 3 disability hearing would seem more akin to a sterilization proceeding (being deprived of ALL future children) than a mere parental rights termination proceeding (merely being deprived of only a current one).¨
Being able to run for office is a liberty interest, but I don´t know that it has ever been held to be a fundamental right on the order of procreation or parenting. What is required is an opportunity to be heard at a meaningful time and in a meaningful manner.
Could a state use an administrative procedure to adjudicate treason accusations as long as the penalties were limited to deprivations of things not considered fundamental rights?
I really hope the Board rules Cawthorn ineligible, for a couple reasons. One is he is a horrible human being and having people like him in Congress is a continual embarrassment. But also, the resulting court case(s) would be fascinating.
"a horrible human being and having people like him in Congress is a continual embarrassment"
That standard of disqualification would certainly keep the elections boards and courts busy.
Ha ha true. He is horrible even by the low standards of your run-of-the-mill Congressperson. But they seem to like him over there on the mainland.
Even if a court ruled that Jan. 6 was an insurrection, Section 3 does not bar someone who had taken part in an insurrection from being President. It only bars them from being a Presidential elector, or a member of Congress, or an "officer."