The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Case for Fixing the Electoral Count Act
Experts across the political spectrum support ways to forestall future efforts to use Congress to overturn presidential election results.

Tomorrow is the one-year anniversary of the January 6, 2021 attack on the Capitol. The most dramatic event of that day, was the actual violent assault. It is important to prevent a repetition. But it is at least equally important to forestall future efforts to replicate the shenanigans that Donald Trump and some of his supporters tried to instigate that day, by getting Congress and the Vice President to try to overturn the election results.
That effort failed last year, when Vice President Mike Pence and a majority of both houses of Congress refused to go along with it. But effectively precluding future such attempts requires reform of the Electoral Count Act (ECA) of 1887, the well-intentioned but ambiguous law governing certification of presidential election results by Congress.
In recent days, experts across the political spectrum have highlighted the importance of this issue. An op ed in the Washington Post coauthored by prominent liberal election law experts Richard Pildes and Edward Foley, conservative constitutional law scholar and former federal judge Michael McConnell, and libertarian election law specialist Bradley Smith summarizes the issues involved well:
We are scholars of election law who span the ideological spectrum but agree on two fundamental principles to help avert potential political upheaval in the aftermath of the 2024 presidential election.
First, to avoid a repeat of Jan. 6, or worse, Congress must rewrite the Electoral Count Act, the outmoded 1887 law that governs the certification of the presidential vote. There is a pressing need for a clear set of rules to govern the certification of the presidential vote.
Second, this revision should be based on the premise that Congress is not a national recount board or a court for litigating the outcome of presidential elections. It is not the role of Congress to revisit a state's popular vote tally….
To prevent another such event, which could be launched by either party in an effort to control the outcome of a hotly contested presidential election, a revision of the Electoral Count Act should be based on the following guidelines:
Whenever there is just one submission of electoral votes from a state — in other words, no competing slates of electors — Congress should disavow any power to question those electoral votes on the ground that there was something wrong with the popular vote upon which those electors were appointed. As long as the state itself has settled on who won that state through policies established in advance of the election, Congress has no role other than to accept those as being the state's electoral votes…
In a situation in which Congress receives conflicting submissions of electoral votes from different institutions of state government — something that has not occurred since 1876 and that we hope remains rare — Congress should incentivize states to identify in advance which institution is entitled to speak for its voters. If states do this, then Congress only has to count the electoral votes sent from the designated part of the state's government.
If a state has failed to make clear which part of its government is authoritative in determining the popular vote, Congress could set a default rule (awarding power to the governor or state supreme court, for example). Or it could create in advance a nonpartisan tribunal empowered to identify which part of state government has a better legal claim for being authoritative under the specific circumstances.
Foley, Pildes, McConnell, and Bradley rarely agree on much of anything. The fact they have done so here is, notable.
To their suggested reforms, I would add that it would also be useful to make clear that the Vice President does not have the power to set aside state electoral votes either. Then-VP Mike Pence rightly rejected the notion that he could do this on last year (the idea was advanced in the now-notorious John Eastman memo). But Congress should do all it can to eliminate any possible doubt on this question.
The authors of the Post op ed are far from the only ones advocating the cause of ECA reform. Walter Olson of the libertarian Cato Institute has been beating the same drum for some time, as has his colleague Andy Craig. Conservative political commentator Yuval Levin published a New York Times article about it on Monday. ECA reform also has the backing of the conservative Wall Street Journal editorial page.
Perhaps more importantly, today GOP Senate Leader Mitch McConnell (not to be confused with Prof. Michael McConnell, discussed above) and Republican whip Sen. John Thune both suggested they may be open to ECA reform, even though they oppose virtually all other election reforms supported by Democrats. Some of the latter, unfortunately, may be unwilling to support a separate ECA reform bill, unless it is coupled with GOP support for various liberal election-law measures, such as curbing state voter ID laws and other registration restrictions.
McConnell and Thune may well have partisan political motives for their stance. Democratic political leaders likely have impure motivations of their own. When it comes to election law, few if any politicians are innocent lambs whose only concern is the public good. Nonetheless, fixing the ECA is an important reform that should command broad bipartisan support, even if it means separating the issue from other matters, and even if it requires securing the support of politicians with dubious motives.
Addressing this problem won't fix all that ails American democracy. It will not even forestall every possible way to monkey around with presidential election results. But it could close off the most obvious path by which a sufficiently ruthless party, in control of both houses of Congress or the vice presidency, could try to overturn a presidential election and install the loser as the winner. Foreclosing that possibility is a worthy goal, even if it isn't a panacea for all of our political problems.
UPDATE: I put up this post before noticing that co-bloggers Keith Whittington and Jonathan Adler have also highlighted the Washington Post op ed. My post above goes beyond theirs by noting other influential supporters of ECA reform, and making some additional points (including about the role of the Vice President).
UPDATE #2: Andy Craig of the Cato Institute, whose work on this issue I mentioned above, has just published a new piece entitled "Bipartisan Momentum Builds for Fixing the Electoral Count Act." He summarizes additional support for ECA reform from a variety of sources, including the following:
The conservative American Enterprise Institute has held forums and published reports, and David French put it bluntly in a recent piece headlined "Stop Screwing Around and Fix the Electoral Count Act." The liberal Center for American Progress just released their own report on the threats to free and fair elections, which prominently includes ECA reform among its recommendations.
On Monday, the Wall Street Journal editorial board chimed in with a piece cataloging the practical and constitutional problems with the ECA, repeating their past calls to adopt some sort of a fix. The next day in the Washington Post, an impressive bipartisan quartet of experts, including former FEC chairman Bradley Smith, authored an op‐ed making their case. Also in the Post, liberal columnist Eugene Robinson cited Cato among others in urging ECA legislation to begin making its way to Biden's desk.
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Even in a country with the most difficult-to-amend constitution in the world, surely there must be enough votes to amend the constitution to clarify that Presidential electors must be democratically elected, and may not go rogue?
From a constitutional perspective, what does it mean for an elector to go rogue?
As I understand it, the original conception of the authors of the US Constitution was that the electors would be appointed as blank slates to elect the President.
The putting of the Presidential candidate names on the ballot rather than electors is an extra-constitutional fraud that the states perpetrated on the people.
Yes, the constitution grants the state legislatures mostly unfettered discretion in determining the manner of selecting the electors, and what they have done is constitutional.
It was still a fraud to make it look to the general public like they were voting for a presidential candidate rather than a slate of electors.
Hence the suggestion to formalise the current practice and have the constitution require that presidential candidates are shown on ballots (in a presidential election that is actually held) and that the electors actually vote for the presidential candidate that they were elected to vote for.
I would go the other way. Remove the fraud. Take Presidential candidate names off the ballot and make it clear that the electors have absolute discretion.
You're in good company. Per Alexander Hamilton in Federalist 68, the Electoral College would ensure :
Yet the EC's unforeseen consequence was enabling the opposite of that: anointing Donald Trump in 2016, despite the actual democratic will of the people.
(To forestall the inevitable, rote We're not a Democracy, we're a
Republic!...we're the type of representative democracy known as a republic. What we are not is a Direct Democracy (or as Madison called it, Pure Democracy). Our Founders feared direct democracy as being too easily incited and manipulated by a popular demagogue, so they insulated the passions of the mob from the levers of government through several mechanisms, including a three-way separation of powers (plus a bicameral legislature), a severely limited chief executive, and the Electoral College (again, of which an originalist interpretation would have blocked the demagogic Trump from the presidency).
Yet the EC's unforeseen consequence was enabling the opposite of that: anointing Donald Trump in 2016, despite the actual democratic will of the people.
That's not because of the EC per se, but because of how each state's voting weight in the EC is determined. You'll never find agreement to change that, because that's a zero sum game in a two-party system. (Unless maybe you propose an amendment that doesn't enter into force for decades.)
All I was proposing was to codify current practice, so that there's at least agreement that state legislatures can't appoint electors directly, without a vote.
Can you name a candidate for President in the last 100 years (to make it easy for you) who would qualify "in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications."?
"Yet the EC's unforeseen consequence was enabling the opposite of that:"
It's not the EC that enabled that.
It's the fraud of putting presidential candidate names on the ballot combined with winner takes all allocation of the electors based on the fraudulent election.
It's not the EC's fault that voters don't understand that they aren't electing the president.
PS even just get rid of winner take all in favor of the Maine system and the odds of an EC inversion get drastically reduced.
That just pushes the problem one-step down to winner-take all by district. As with winner-take all by state, purple districts get too much weight. Additionally at the present time, Democrats have a built-in disadvantage because they have more pure blue districts than Republicans have more pure red districts.
It also just further incentivizes gerrymandering.
If a state is going to split its electoral votes, it should be based on the statewide vote totals. E.g., get 60% of the vote in the whole state, get 60% of the state's electors. If every state did this, it would have the advantage of diluting the influence of around a dozen swing states to be the real deciding factor in presidential elections. It would also make it much less likely to have a repeat of 2020, or 2000, for that matter, as any disputes would be unlikely to come down to the vote in a small number of states.
"I would go the other way. Remove the fraud. Take Presidential candidate names off the ballot and make it clear that the electors have absolute discretion."
Do you realize how dangerous and undemocratic that suggestion is? To suggest that the will of the people be subservient to the will of government officials?
I don't see why that is worse than any other type of representative system. We elect Congressmen, and they make policy choices as our representatives. Besides, in case you haven't noticed, "the will of the people" has been making some pretty crappy choices for President.
Sure, but if that's what you want, why not go all the way an introduce a parliamentary system. It's the same indirect method for choosing the head of government, except you can get rid of them if things don't work out.
The Constitution was written in a time when there was no mass communication, only slow transportation, and no political parties. Neither the general public nor even the state legislatures were really qualified to judge presidential candidates that most of them had never met or even seen in person, who might never have even been to their states. Therefore, the idea was that the legislatures would appoint a handful of some of the most elite people in the state to get together and deliberate and decide who would make a good president.
Electors now are simply party hacks of no discernable merit or accomplishment, chosen solely for party loyalty. There's not really any good reason to vest "absolute discretion" in them.
"Electors now are simply party hacks of no discernable merit or accomplishment, chosen solely for party loyalty. There's not really any good reason to vest "absolute discretion" in them."
That is entirely a consequence of the fraud of putting the presidential candidate names on the ballot combined with winner take all allocation of electors based on that election fraud.
Get rid of both, actually have people voting for electors who will campaign in their own right with no winner take all to a presidential candidate's hand picked slate of electors and that probably goes away.
No, it's not, even if that were "fraud" (it's not). They've been party hacks of no discernible merit or accomplishment, chosen solely for party loyalty, since long before states put presidential candidate names on the ballot (indeed, some states still do list the electors' names; that doesn't change the nature of the electors.)
it only "looks" that way to the uninformed.
Since they government stopped teaching civics and history, a huge swath of voters don't understand the founders and exactly how our government works.
The people were supposed to run the States. The States were supposed to run the Federal Government.
The Federal Government was supposed to to be strictly limited to the enumerated powers of the Constitution.
The people are in charge, they just don't know it.
All you lawyers babbling amongst your self. Ignoring the facts. Instead your working overtime to keep your power concentrated in DC. Where it was never supposed to rule.
You are confusing the Constitution with the Articles of Confederation.
'Going rogue' and the popular vote not being definitive is absolutely intentional on part of the Constitutional Framers. Whether you agree with it or not they didn't want Joe B. Farmer to have unchecked power. Its a feature to be at worst debated not a bug to be fixed. You'd think Mr. Constitutional Scholar would remember this fact that you learn in middle school history but either he doesn't or he's intentionally being misleading.
Did you miss the part where I was suggesting a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT???
(All caps because clearly using normal punctuation leads to confusion.)
Amos, don't over-rely on that middle school history. Before you got it, a curriculum committee had its dirty hands on it, and your teacher was probably not a historian. For all you know, before it got to the curriculum committee it was some now-controversial interpretation published in 1928.
No, not really. Both major parties still want the state legislatures to be able to override the voters, just for different reasons
Really? Do you have evidence for that?
And, even if that were true, wouldn't they be willing to agree simultaneous disarmament?
Can you identify a single prominent Democrat — note, not a pundit, not a professor somewhere, but an actual Democratic Party official — who has suggested the state legislatures overriding voters?
Even if this is supposed to be an allusion to the NPVIC, that's not about the state legislatures doing so; it's about the national polity doing so.
No, it's exactly a state legislature deciding that voters outside its state (the national polity) would get to determine how a state's electoral votes would cast.
Knowing it's going to happen in advance via the NPVIC is no different than the supposed injustice of the presidential electoral college winner not receiving the majority of national votes cast. I continue to be amazed that the people so concerned about norms are perfectly happy to change them to get their way. It continues to reinforce my perception that people only care about the norms that work to their advantage. In this Donald Trump's disregard of them is not unique. That's also why I've never voted for him.
" and libertarian election law specialist Bradley Smith "
This libertarian Bradley Smith sounds like a welcome addition to the election law debates.
Is he related to conservative Republican former FEC commissioner Bradley A. Smith?
To avoid confusion, the clinger Bradley Smith is the guy who formed a partisan "free speech" organization and filled the board with Cleta Mitchell (insurrectionists' counsel of choice); a former McConnell chief of staff; David Keating (Club from Growth); and a couple of other movement conservative culture warriors.
I am entirely unfamiliar with this other, libertarian Bradley Smith.
First, there was no "insurrection"...that was just an invention of the liberal media who had no idea how to write the word "riot" before January 6, 2021 apparently.
Second, even if the Congressional effort was successful it was never an attempt to "overturn" the election (again another rhetorical invention by the leftist media). If it did anything, it would have sent the returns back to the states to re-certify as there were serious questions as to whether some of those elections were lawful and sound.
Third, someone needs to be the judge of elections and if you don't want that to ultimately be Congress then who is going to do it? Do you really want 9 people on the Supreme Court to hold that role? Wouldn't you rather that be in the hands of the political branch? I would.
This is a prime example of a solution in search of a problem. Nothing of note happened on January 6th precisely because the machinery of democracy worked. Yeah, sometimes it is messy, but it worked.
MEGAULTRA DEATH INSURRECTION. Where a small portion out of thousands of Evil Dark Lord DRUMPF INSURRECTIONISTS allegedly accidentally may or may not have caused the death of ONE ONE ONE guy who was hit by a flying object after they were attacked and after TRUMP explicitly called for no violence. Clearly the worst and only instance of violence in US History.
You forgot about the unarmed protester that was shot dead by the police. You know the one protester that the media never seems to actually mention by name and the man who shot her got to enjoy anonymity for months afterward. You know by the same media that finally was able to find a cop to get behind and support in a long time.
No joking. CNN did a "fact check" article that was just full of mostly fiction or unsupported statements. For instance, they actually wrote that there might have been tons of weapons at the event of January 6th but we will never know because people were not detained and searched. Yes, that very statement was put into a "fact check" article my friends. FACT - there were tons of weapons at January 6th. SUPPORT - well we don't know who could have had a concealed weapon because we will never know! This is supposedly the 4th branch of government folks.
Here's a joke that mentions the name:
Knock, knock.
Who's there?
Not Ashli Babbitt. Not anymore.
She was too stupid to live.
Feel better now?
Yeah, he did call for no violence. I heard him. He also called for violence. I heard that too. Both calls were similarly vague. But the call for violence was the one he kept repeating.
He did call for violence, yes. But the Trumpkin claim that he didn't do so would be disingenuous even if he hadn't used the words. Trump claimed that the election was being stolen, and that corrupt and cowardly politicians and corrupt and cowardly judges were allowing it to happen (or even facilitating it). If that were true, it would have justified violence.
If you spent two months yelling that the guy living in the blue house on the corner was a child molester, and ranting that the cops wouldn't do anything about it, and then one day you gathered a crowd outside his house and screamed that a child was being molested right at that moment, what would any reasonable person think would happen? What would any reasonable person want to have happen? Not for the crowd to fecklessly express nonviolent displeasure — for the crowd to break in and save the kid by whatever means necessary. You wouldn't need to say "hey, everyone, let's storm the house!" That's inherent in the scenario.
And that's what Trump did here. He set up a (fake) scenario in which the only reasonable thing to do was get violent, and then he lit a fuse and stood back and watched with a shit-eating grin as it inevitably happened.
This is just pure fiction and a narrative that only exists in your head. None of this happened as you try to portray it.
Hush. The grownups are talking.
Those voices are just in your head....
Trump´s speech to the crowd on January 6 was close to the edge of unprotected advocacy of violence ¨directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action¨ discussed in Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444, 447 (1969). There is enough ambiguity, though, in my opinion, to make that a close question.
I think the easier and more constitutionally sound basis for criminal prosecution is the attempt and/or conspiracy to corruptly influence Mike Pence to disregard section 15 of the Electoral Count Act by Trump, Eastman, Giuliani and others, contrary to 18 U.S.C. 1512(c)(2) and 1512(k). That would not require a showing of vicarious liability for the violent conduct of those who breached the Capitol -- while allowing Trump´s speech to the crowd to be considered as evidence of a corrupt purpose.
That's a damn fine analogy, Mr Nieporent. Only a kook would find fault with it (<---thats a calculated observation)
Yes, this effort to fix the Presidential vote is un-American, and is a thinly-disguised plot to keep Trump out of office. We should welcome the public voicing their political concerns in Washington, and not try to prosecute them.
You can't tell me for a second if this was not a band of smelly, long haired leftists we wouldn't hear the end about how they were seeking to protect freedom and democracy...
AG M. Garland gave a speech today about how he is protecting democracy by locking up political prisoners.
I'm not a huge McConnell fan but this country owes that man a HUGE debt of gratitude for keeping him off the Supreme Court.
Open wider, Roger S.
Your betters have more progress, tolerance, reason, and science to shove down your whimpering, bigoted throat.
And you will comply, clinger . . . although you get to continue to whine about it as much as you like.
How would it keep Trump out of office, unless he is trying to ignore the actual voters?
"As long as the state itself has settled on who won that state through policies established in advance of the election, Congress has no role other than to accept those as being the state's electoral votes…"
States should not be allowed (under federal law) to have more than one slate, or to change the rules for submitting votes, or counting them, once the first vote is cast.
"or to change the rules for submitting votes, or counting them, once the first vote is cast."
^This.
"States should not be allowed (under federal law) to have more than one slate, or to change the rules for submitting votes, or counting them, once the first vote is cast."
No federal law can overrule the grant of plenary power to the states ["in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct"]
The Legislature can act at any time.
A federal statute can't, but a constitutional amendment could.
I would offer that a federal law can direct the election of federal seats. What the states do to themselves is part of the great experiment in democracy.
I would offer that a federal law can direct the election of federal seats.
No. States have plenary power. Federal cannot usurp that power.
OK, then: Amendment.
No, it can't. Article II, Section 1, Paragraph 4:
The Congress may determine the Time of chusing the Electors, and the Day on which they shall give their Votes; which Day shall be the same throughout the United States.
Note that the second half of that, the part I didn't boldface, also forecloses the purported "send the issue back to the state legislatures to reconsider" strategem. The electors had already voted. Even if state legislatures had appointed new electors after 1/6, the "Day" on which they were required to give their votes had passed; those new electors could not have voted.
What to do when the state makes a contingent law, empowering it to choose the elector state if thus and so . . .
Is Trump still President? You'd think so the way Ilya and media continue to obsessively fixate on him a year after he supposedly left office. Maybe they should apologize to the so called 'insurrectionists' if they actually agree with them.
No one wants to talk about our current President and VP. It is just too painfully obvious that one is incompetent, and the other is a token.
If my blog attracted a commenting audience consisting most of Bob from Ohio-Brett Bellmore-Jimmy the Dane-Roger S - level examples (unreconstructed racists, autistic misfits, superstitious gay-bashers, old-timey misogynists, immigrant-hating White nationalists, science-disdaining knuckle-draggers), I would be humiliated and circumspect.
The Volokh Conspirators (most of them, at least) seem unburdened by the type of character that would precipitate such a response.
Libertarians let others express their opinions. Go to a left-wing site, if you want censorship.
God help me, but I do love these repetitive takedowns
We're all still talking about it because evidence shows that both Trump and his cohorts tried to overthrow the government of the United States. Kinda important
They were so serious and coordinated they didn't bring guns. Totes Civil war Deux
There is clear intent to screw with 2024 in a bunch of states. This isn't about Trump, it's about the GOP.
Yes, there is such an intent, and there are a lot of state legislatures trying to head that off.
If you are going to amend the Constitution already, then I would advocate making electoral votes be distributed in each state proportionately. This would put (almost) every state in play, as there would not be a winner-take-all effect in blue and red states.
I would prefer each state get 1 EC vote.
Make it each county in the USA gets one.
Normal counties or gerrymandered counties?
Um, counties aren't gerrymandered; districts are.
Right! Kalawao County in Hawaii should get the same vote for its 86 residents as LA County with over 10 million!
Normal districts or gerrymandered districts? (Props to DN for the correction)
I would prefer each state get 1 EC vote.
Republicans that love this idea and the equal representation in the Senate only do so because it favors their party. If were flipped, they'd be the loudest shouting "One person, one vote!"
Bored, the winner-take-all system for determining electors happened almost immediately after the electoral college was enacted, and James Madison HATED it. He found it a perversion of the system. I think he and you are correct.
The provisions of the Electoral Count Act are sufficiently clear to support criminal prosecution under 18 U.S.C. 1512(c)(2) and 1512(k) of those -- including Donald Trump, John Eastman, Rudolph Giuliani and others -- who attempted and/or conspired to corruptly influence Mike Pence to disregard the requirements of 3 U.S.C. 15 in an official proceeding before Congress by unilaterally rejecting several states´ electoral votes. Some details of the plot are described in the complaint requesting an investigation of Eastman for professional discipline by the California bar. https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/39bd606e-99f1-46ab-ab67-a56c0170ee72/note/929cacaa-5c81-4d15-93e6-93316cffda1d.#page=1
Sending some of these malefactors to prison would do much to restore respect for the rule of law. All we need is a Department of Justice with the fortitude to act.
The insurrection apologists in this thread are really something.
The mostly peaceful protest was hardly an insurrection.
The lack of anybody being charged for that is telling.
" The mostly peaceful protest was hardly an insurrection. "
This seems a common misperception among poorly educated, gullible, disaffected, superstitious, bigoted yahoos.
Ninety percent of the people in that bank were law-abiding customers. How does three guys with guns and masks give Fake News CNN the right to call what happened a "bank robbery?"
Yeah, exactly. And that all of those "protesters" walked right by the broken windows and doors, and saw people ahead of them beating cops with flagpoles shows how "peaceful" they were.
You lost me at attack. How many weapons did the protesters have?
How many protesters died? How many capitol police died from attacks?
Is that your thresholds for what an attack is? Just asking.
According to this article, at least 85 insurrectionists have been charged with carrying or using weapons on Capitol grounds. In some cases, rioters took batons and other weapons from police and used them against them. And don't forget the 150 police that reported injuries. (Which doesn't count bruises or scratches or bear spray that some didn't bother to report.)
4 rioters died at the scene. Officer Brian Sicknick collapsed from a stroke 8 hours after the attack and died the next day. It is reasonable to think that the stress of that event (and being incapacitated for 20 minutes from bear spray) contributed to that result in a 42 year old man. Two officers committed suicide in the days immediately after the attack.
There is more than enough video and other evidence of violent acts by the insurrectionists. What else would you call it besides an attack?
Yes, 4 protesters died. 2 of natural causes, as happens any time you get that many people together in one place. 1 died in the crush of the crowd, as occasionally happens at sporting events and concerts. One was shot by Capitol police, and I'm counting that one as "suicide by cop", I'd have expected to be shot myself if I ever did the same.
And one cop died from a stroke hours later, and the medical examiner did NOT conclude that the events of the day were responsible, IIRC.
I'd be interested if the two suicides said why they did it.
Really? Two people will die of natural causes any time large numbers of people are together in one place? A football stadium full of people should have a dozen dying every game if that were true. 50-75000 people together in one place for ~4 hours vs a few thousand on the Capitol grounds for a similar amount of time.
Second, this revision should be based on the premise that Congress is not a national recount board or a court for litigating the outcome of presidential elections. It is not the role of Congress to revisit a state's popular vote tally….
True.
But it has become evident that survival of American constitutionalism probably depends on the ability of Congress to prescribe rules to force states to rely on small-d democratic voting. During the memory of everyone now alive, that has been the means by which the popular sovereign exercised constitutive power. It also seems to have been the original plan.
Of late, there have been too many minority-power explosives piled up to permit states to set them off all at once. To end that last shred of pretense about democratic governance does risk blowing up the nation. It is probably not wise to overlook that risk.
But it has become evident that survival of American constitutionalism probably depends on the ability of Congress to prescribe rules to force states to rely on small-d democratic voting.
First its not America. Its the United States. That matters. The structure that needs saving is the States. A new federal govt can easily be created, Federal power is subordinate to the States.
Um, no. The Articles of Confederation were superseded, and then decades later the southern traitors lost the Civil War.
Federal power is subordinate to the States.
I'll add on to what David said by pointing out that the federal Constitution, along with federal laws and ratified treaties are the supreme law of the land. In areas where the federal government has the power to act, what it says goes.
The myth here is that states and the United States are "dual sovereigns". That is an oxymoron. There can only be one sovereign, by definition*. That the Supreme Court has invented this doctrine of dual sovereignty in double jeopardy cases is one of those situations where the plain definition of a word was subordinated to what the Justices wanted to do.
*Every definition of sovereignty I found included some reference to being the supreme authority within a jurisdiction. It just isn't possible to have two sovereigns over the same place. What the Constitution does is to divide the powers of government between the federal government and states. For any given power of government, however, there is only one sovereign.
So in this scheme the United States would be the suzerain (Finally I get to use a Cormac McCarthy word)
Not really. The federal government has control over more than just the "foreign policy" of each state, while leaving its internal concerns autonomous.
"In areas where the federal government has the power to act, what it says goes."
It's a pity, though, that the first part of that rule isn't more strictly observed. And, technically, it's not what "it" says that goes, it's what the laws and treaties adopted pursuant to the Constitution say that goes.
Sometimes federal policy and federal law conflict, in those cases the supremacy clause should actually work against the federal government, not for it.
I suppose the trick is in determining who gets to decide when federal policy and law conflict.
From 12A:
“The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;-The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed;”
As long as one person got the majority of the EC, there is no vote to take, no procedure to object to EC votes, and no certification needed from the VP.
Exactly. All they are to do is count the votes. No power to challenge and/or set aside.
What happens when a state legislature decides to send a set of electors for X when the state voted for Y?
In general, state legislators seem more likely to engage in shenanigans than federal legislators.
Under the proposal of the original post, X would win the state. Hence my interest upthread in going a bit further.
I think you are right. There is nothing in the constitution that even requires the state to have a vote to determine electors, the state legislature could just choose them.
I think that one thing that should be clarified is what happens if state laws passed by the state legislature call for a popular vote to determine electors, but then the state legislature changes its mind after the vote comes out the “wrong way”.
To me, that should not be allowed to happen. Without further thought, I’m not sure how it could be stopped, within the bounds of the Constitution, but it would be certainly extremely corrupt for state legislature to do that. And that Trump and his Allies were pushing for that to happen should deeply disturb everyone.
Yes, the state legislature gets to 'chuse' the manner of selection:
But, No, Congress determines of date of selection, and it must be the same for all states:
That means the Legislature may choose the state's Electors, only on the date designated by Congress, which will be the same day other states vote for President. After that specific day, it's too late to switch to a different manner.
Only one bite at the apple.
**(There's some ambiguity of the word "Time" as opposed to "Day" in the clause. Seems to be a consensus of historical linguists that the contemporaneous meaning of the first-used "Time" is "time period," and the later-used "Day" means the date must be the same but the specific time on that day may differ).
*[May the state legislature delay their separate vote for their own slate of Electors until just before midnight on Election Day, in hopes of knowing the result by then? Perhaps! If so, bet the opposition of some (mostly) conservative states to early voting/vote counting would suddenly vanish.)
I’m not sure this is quite right.
The day specified by Congress for the chusing of Electors does not have to be the same date as the date of any popular vote.
Thus, say, Pennsylvania could specify that the Electors would be chosen by the State Legislature on the Congressionally appointed day; and that those Electors must be the persons specified by the winning candidate in the popular election for President in the State held on 1 October, unless a majority of both Houses of the Legislature votes to select a different slate of Electors on the Congressionally appointed day.
Thus the State Legislature can stage a popular election and ignore it without breaking any federal constitutional rule about election dates.
Obviously the State Legislature would have to weigh the pros and cons of overriding the popular vote. But no doubt it would only be considered as a serious option if the facts colorably justified the argument that the popular vote had been incorrectly tallied. eg as in Florida 2000.