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Fifth Circuit Denies Injunction Pending Appeal in Vaccine Mandate Case
Judge Ho dissents: "It is difficult to imagine how a crisis of conscience, whether instigated by government or industry, could be remedied by an award of monetary damages."
Is the threat of termination for failure to get vaccinated irreparable harm? In John Does 1-3 v. Mills, Justice Gorsuch's dissent answered that question, yes. Justice Barrett's concurrence seemed to assume the answer was no. The argument goes, if a person is wrongfully terminated, a court can later order reinstatement, backpay, and restoration of other benefits (such as seniority). Last month, a federal district court reached a similar conclusion in a challenge to United Airline's vaccine mandate. (For a change, I am not writing this post aboard a United flight). This court found that there was no irreparable injury because the employees could be awarded backpay.
The United employees sought an injunction pending appeal from the Fifth Circuit. On Monday, a divided three-judge panel (Stewart, Haynes, and Ho) denied the injunction. The majority endorsed the reasoning of the District Court's decision, and also cited the Supreme Court's new order in Dr. A v. Hochul. This shadow docket ruling had no reasoning, but apparently had precedential value.
Judge Ho dissented, and articulated a very different conception of irreparable injury.
First, Judge Ho acknowledges that in the "garden variety case," the threat of termination is not an irreparable injury. But this case is different:
United is not trying to fire anyone. Instead, the company is trying to make its employees obtain the COVID-19 vaccine, notwithstanding any religious objections they might have. Forcing individuals to choose between their faith and their livelihood imposes an obvious and substantial burden on religion. Make no mistake: Vaccine mandates like the one United is attempting to impose here present a crisis of conscience for many people of faith. It forces them to choose between the two most profound obligations they will ever assume—holding true to their religious commitments and feeding and housing their children. To many, this is the most horrifying of Hobson's choices. And it is a quintessentially irreparable injury, warranting preliminary injunctive relief.
I agree. This "crisis of conscience" distinguishes the COVID cases from conventional employment disputes.
Second, Judge Ho points out that the District Court's decision is inconsistent with recent circuit precedent concerning the OSHA vaccine mandate.
Indeed, just a few weeks ago, our court recognized that irreparable injury results when employees are forced to choose between their beliefs and their benefits. Our colleagues put it this way: "It is clear that a denial of the petitioners' proposed stay would do them irreparable harm," because the federal vaccine mandate "threatens to substantially burden the liberty interests of reluctant individual recipients put to a choice between their job(s) and their jab(s)" (or put another way, "no jab, no job"). BST Holdings,L.L.C. v. OSHA, 17 F.4th 604, 618 (5th Cir. 2021).
The panel here seemed to disregard the irreparable injury analysis from BST Holdings. I endorsed that analysis here.
Third, Judge Ho cites his January 2020 concurrence in Horvath v. City of Leander. This opinion, which concerned a vaccine mandate, was issued shortly before the COVID-19 pandemic exploded.
Shortly before the first official case of COVID-19 appeared in the United States, our court decided a case involving a religious objection to another vaccine mandate. A firefighter objected to taking both the flu vaccine and the TDAP vaccine on religious grounds. The city granted his first request for a religious accommodation, but denied the second. I wrote that a vaccine mandate that does not take faith-based objections into account may substantially burden religious liberty by "forc[ing] citizens to choose between one's faith and one's livelihood." Horvath v. City of Leander, 946 F.3d 787, 799 (5th Cir. 2020) (Ho, J., concurring in the judgment in part and dissenting in part). The same underlying principles should apply here.
I've been surprised that Horvath has not gotten more attention. In many regards, Judge Ho presaged the analysis from Justice Gorsuch's dissent in John Does 1-3 v. Mills. Ho wrote:
Under Smith, government may regulate religious activity, without having to satisfy strict scrutiny, so long as the regulation is a "neutral law of general applicability." 494 U.S. at 879. That rule does not apply, however, where government grants exemptions to some but not to others. Religious liberty deserves better than that—even under Smith. Based on the record in this case, it is far from clear that the city's policy is a "neutral law of general applicability."
Specifically, the city granted exemptions in some contexts, but not others:
In addition, the record confirms that the city is apparently willing to grant exemptions in arguably analogous situations, such as under its flu vaccine policy. Yet for no reason—or at least none that is apparent from the record—the city denied that same request for a religious exemption on behalf of the same firefighter when it came to the TDAP vaccine. Remand would give the city the opportunity to demonstrate either that the flu vaccine is somehow not analogous to the TDAP vaccine (and that the vaccine policy is therefore neutral and generally applicable)—or that it has a compelling interest in insisting that Horvath take the TDAP vaccine, but not the flu vaccine.
Judge Ho was right, long before the pandemic began.
Finally, Judge Ho contends that monetary damages cannot remedy this injury:
It is difficult to imagine how a crisis of conscience, whether instigated by government or industry, could be remedied by an award of monetary damages. Take this case: The person who acquiesces to United's mandate despite his faith doesn't lose any pay. But he will have to wrestle with self-doubt—questioning whether he has lived up to the calling of his faith. Likewise, the person who refuses must also wrestle with self-doubt—questioning whether his faith has hurt his family, and whether living up to his commitments was worth sacrificing the interests of his loved ones. To hypothesize that the earthly reward of monetary damages could compensate for these profound challenges of faith is to misunderstand the entire nature of religious conviction at its most foundational level. And that is so whether the mandate comes from D.C. or the C-Suite.
Throughout the pandemic, I've found that many jurists "misunderstand the entire nature of religious conviction at its most foundational level." Perhaps the clearest statement of this misunderstanding came from Judge Easterbrook. He wrote, "Feeding the body requires teams of people to work together in physical spaces, but churches can feed the spirit in other ways." The judiciary must do better.
In an appropriate case, hopefully soon, the Supreme Court should find that the threat of termination from a vaccine mandate is irreparable harm.
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"Judge Ho acknowledges that in the "garden variety case," the threat of termination is not an irreparable injury. But this case is different"
Ho: I reluctantly recognize the rule but don't like it's application here and so am going to engage in special pleading!
QA doesn't understand what "the rule" is, and doesn't like the binding precedent, so she ignores both!
What binding precedent? Ho made up a new category of Title VII remedies law, in part by citing his own concurrences.
Projection is a hell of a drug.
What is United doing to try to “make” its employees to take the vaccine, “forcing” them to choose? What is the nature of the force it is using? Putting guns to their heads? Locking them up? Beating them?
If it’s simply offering employment to vaccinated people, what makes that different from offering employment in exchange for not spending their time watching movies (and having to do what The Boss says instead)? No-one would say that the enployer is “forcing” them to not watch movies. An offer of employment in exchange for not doing what one wants to do does not force or make one do anything.
I think that religious employment accommodation disputes should be treated like other disputes. I don’t see why a person not hired for not doing what an employer wants foe religious reasons is more injured than some racially discriminated against or more entitled to injunctive relief.
I find a big change in my comments in the last couple of years. For years before then, I regulatly argued for more robust protection of religius rights. Increasingly, I seem to be regularly arguing that the right wing of the Supreme Court’s efforts to protect religious rights goes to far, gives them more than other people with rights claims get, and doesn’t give proper consideration to the needs of other members of society.
I don’t think I’ve changed. The world around me has.
The folks on the right supporting religious righrts have a grabbiness, a self-centeredness, a disregard and lack of concern for others, a lack of a sense of balance, that people on the left who supported robust religion rights half a century ago (e.g. Brennan and Marshall) didn’t have.
I think that a private business should accommodate religious needs and the standard should be more than just de minimus harm. But I think that vaccination refusal involves far more than just de minimus harm to others, it meets traditional compelling interest standards. So I think religious claimants should lose on vaccination issues on the merits. And even in situations where I think they should win on the merits, they aren’t entitled to a more favorable standard or better treatment than other kinds of discrimination/accommodation complainants (e.g. disability). They just aren’t entitled to injunctions when other kinds of discrimination complainants aren’t. Their needs are different from others’.
Their needs are not different from others.
Well said.
When the government says "get vaccinated or you don't work", where do you propose they go.
Because it is illegal to work without vaccination, and you refuse vaccination - it's like holding a gun to your head.
Here it's a private company saying 'get vaccinated or you don't work for us.'
The waters are a bit muddier than that as United would be facing mandates from multiple levels of government if they didn't decide to require vaccination on their own, so there is a "but for" question to be answered here
But on the surface, yes this is a private decision by a private company, and without the government mandates hanging like a Sword of Damocles it would be an open and shut case
A more than fair enough point.
Where do they go? They go to another job that doesn't mandate vaccines, I'd imagine.
Where does the gay professor go who gets fired from his job at a religious university for violating their religion-based employment clause by getting married? Where does the nurse go who refuses to treat a patient or denies appropriate care for religious reasons?
Religious objections cannot be a "get out of responsibility" clause for the faithful whenever they face a difficult choice.
And when that other job isn't available, because they "all" require mandates?
And when that other job isn't available, because they "all" require mandates?
Well if you are that faithful, go join the clergy or a monastery.
Start your own fucking business and get self employed.
Get an internet job/work from home job (like all the ones advertised in the Reason comments section)
Go find smaller companies that the mandate doesn't apply to.
You see standing on principle is hard and requires sacrifice. But the lazy "faithful" just want to use their magic incantation to avoid having to do anything that they dont feel like doing.
Just using the magic words "my religion requires....." doesn't mean anyone has to accommodate or tolerate your insanity.
Not a gun against your head, more like holding a needle against your arm, a needle offering immunity from a serious disease.
Immunity? No COVID vaccine promises immunity. Don’t exaggerate.
When the government says "get vaccinated or you don't work", where do you propose they go.
To a vaccination clinic?
Of course, "get vaccinated or you don't work," is not what the government has said.
I find the religious-accommodation cases to be really hard (at least most of the time), because I have trouble seeing a lot of generally-applicable bright-line principles.
But that is all irrelevant to preliminary injunction case. Alleged "substantial burdens on religious practice", while relevant to the merits of the case, have exactly nothing to do with the irreparable injury analysis.
As an aside, I plead to Prof B to stop making me agree with Queen A. It is disheartening.
"what makes that different from offering employment in exchange for not spending their time watching movies (and having to do what The Boss says instead)? "
This analogy needs to be taken out behind the courthouse and shot.
What makes it different? Well, after work, one can always resume the movie binge.
But you can't take off your vaccine after work.
Also, you started with a strawman. They are not offering employment to the vaxxed, as you said.
Instead, they are removing employment from those who decline to take up a new condition to their employment, imposed after they accepted said employment.
That’s not a difference with constitutional significance. Consider a doctor asked to perform an abortion or someone asked to guaard a concentration camp who objects on religious grounds. Perhaps from your point of view, from a strictly physical/material point of view, nothing prevents the doctor or the concentration camp guard from going home after work and acting as if nothing had ever happened.
But from the doctor and guard’s view, these things might have spiritual significance that would preclude such an outcome from a religious point of view.
Indeed, your focus on physical, material consequences as distinct from spiritual ones strongly suggests thaat your concerns are strictly physical and material, not religious, in nature, so religious freedom has nothing to do with your concerns at all.
And good Sir, despite your evident familiarity with the esteemed philosopher Frank Sinatra, might I suggest that your casual remark about shooting what you disagree with might perhaps suggests that indifference to religious or spiritual considerations might occur in other aspects of your life as well?
That's a poor analogy. The not-watching-movies involves something you're doing on the clock; being vaccinated involves something on your own time. (I mean, both the actual process of getting injected, as well as the status of having been injected.)
Which does not mean that I am endorsing Ho's absurd argument. It's just not an unremediable injury to be fired, and if it were, that would work a sea change in employment law jurisprudence.
It’s also that there is a superior alternative to the vaccine: natural immunity from prior infection.
There’s also the fact that airlines have made a big deal about how safe their cabins are, with air filtration. If they’re honest, no one should be masked or need vaccination to fly.
Also, if they’re insisting on masks, and presuming that they are necessary because they’re effective (which they’re not), then vaccinations should not be required.
Because there’s alternatives, there is no justification for refusing any employees the right to work without a vaccine.
there is a superior alternative to the vaccine: natural immunity from prior infection.
That is not supported by current science.
It could be true, but studies so far have been equivocal.
And masks are effective as part of a layered system of measures, including vaccines and social distancing.
No, no, you don't understand. If you think cars should have airbags, you are confessing that you think seatbelts are useless. (And don't get me started on antilock brakes.)
I think there's a lack of tolerance, acceptance, and understanding on the part of many on the left, simply because it doesn't affect them or people they know.
Let's give an example. Let's say there's a particular practice common to followers of a minority religion that has a much much higher rate of COVID transmission than the more common secular practice. Let's say followers of this religion belief that every meal needs to be in common with 5 other people, and they must all sample each other's meals. The more common secular practice is that people have their own individual meals.
Let's also say that science demonstrates that those who follow this "sharing each other meals" practice results in a COVID infection rate 20 times higher than the more common individual meal practice.
Would it be acceptable for the state to ban such a "sharing each others meals" practice due to the difference in infection rate? Or could businesses "mandate" that employees not follow such practices, or else be fired?
I confess I don't anyone who has explained coherently why their religion prohibits them from taking the Covid jab, but not other vaccines.
Because “I don’t want to put anything in the body that I believe is modeled on a divine creation” is all the justification a religious person should need.
Or “I believe my god gave me the power to pray away disease.”
Or “I am not comfortable having a product distantly related to dead human babies injected into me.”
All wacky ideas to me, but if someone believes it, and I can’t articulate and prove it harms anyone else, I can’t oppose their claim of religious beliefs.
The issue is when this is an excursion from previous commands of their faith.
Because what we're seeing is people who have been fine with all other vaccines suddenly find their faith says not this one.
I'm all for a presumption of sincerity, but that scenario punctures that presumption.
Assuming the restriction isn't established just to stop these practitioners, yes and yes. The government can stop it due to their compelling public interest (stopping the pandemic) and businesses could prohibit it, at least at work. See; Employment Division v. Smith.
Religious belief isn't a ticket to violate any laws you don't like. Businesses have all kinds of rules which might violate religious belief, and the government imposes all kinds of restrictions which might. The Smith of Employment Division sued because he was fired for using peyote as his faith required. He was denied unemployment benefits. He wouldn't have been able to refuse a drug test as a condition of employment AND keep his job, either. Somehow neither that nor the many other vaccine mandates and other workplace conditions employers have put ever raised the hackles of fake constitutionalists like Blackman and Ho until idiocracy made COVID anti-vaxx an article of faith for dipshits on the right.
"Assuming the restriction isn't established just to stop these practitioners, yes and yes. The government can stop it due to their compelling public interest (stopping the pandemic) and businesses could prohibit it, at least at work. See; Employment Division v. Smith."
OK. Let's say there was a different epidemic, one was killings tens to hundreds of thousands of Americans. And there is a particular practice that is common (but not exclusive) to a minority. And that practice had substantially higher rates of infection than the more common practice. Could the state ban THAT practice? Could companies make employment conditional on not engaging in that practice?
Does it change your mind if the particular practice is anal intercourse, and the epidemic is AIDS? Could a state ban anal intercourse, based on its higher rate of infection?
If your answer is no, how exactly is it different?
Per Lawrence, the state cannot ban anal intercourse because:
No such liberty interest is at stake in this case.
So, the state cannot ban anal intercourse, despite it contributing to a widespread epidemic, causing due to infringements on liberty?
But the state CAN ban actions of a religious nature that contribute to a widespread epidemic, despite the infringement on religious liberty?
How do you mesh these two concepts? Both infringe on liberty...but one can be banned, and the other cannot in an epidemic?
Smith and Lawrence are not in conflict for four reasons:
1) the law - they rely on completely different parts of the Constitution
2) the facts - Lawrence was a blanket ban, whereas the restrictions on religious activities are not. Lawrence also was not addressing AIDS.
3) more facts - the transmissibility of AIDS is much much lower than Covid, making the government interest in AIDS-related restrictions subject to more scrutiny
4) yet more facts - there *were* lots of restrictions on those who had homosexual sex due to AIDS, well beyond what was rational, actually. And the rights still talks about bringing some of those back, because they still really don't like the gays.
Smith held that rational basis review applies to neutral and generally applicable laws that only incidentally burden religious liberty protected by the Free Exercise Clause. In contrast, strict scrutiny applies to all laws which burden liberty interests protected by the Fourteenth Amendment.
What if a religion had a practice requiring butt licking before meals? Could I deny that in the workplace?
I like your example, but raise you five points!
Could you require people don't do it outside the workplace, and sign a pledge promising they don't or else get fired? Because of the increased disease risk?
Tell me you don’t understand employment law without telling me you don’t understand employment law. There is zero distinction between the adverse employment action here and the one in a typical case. Monetary damages is the remedy. No one gets preliminary injunctive relief in a Title VII case. Having a crisis of conscience is not a unique irreparable harm compared to say being fired for your race for instance. The fact it involves self-professed Christians around Christmas is irrelevant.
Also he’s misusing Hobson’s Choice. (Seriously, my state’s style guide actually says never to use it to describe a difficult choice). There actually is a real choice: get the vaccine and keep your job at the cost of your religious convictions or keep your religious convictions don’t get the vaccine and find a new job. People are confronted with weighing things like their personal values and livelihood every day.
Bad law, bad logic, bad writing, with some bad Christian special pleading thrown in.
No wonder you agree.
Choosing between upholding your scruples and losing your job, or being forced to violate your conscience, is precisely a Hobson's choice. By your argument, "take it or leave it" is not a Hobson's choice because you can choose to leave.
No. It absolutely is not. It is a difficult choice. Not the illusion of choice. As my style guide says: "a Hobson's choice is an apparently free choice that offers no real alternative. Do not use it to describe a difficult choice."
This is just a difficult choice: i.e. a dilemma, a choice between two unattractive options.
Look beyond your idiosyncratic reading of that style guide, and you will find that you are reading it quite incorrectly. Consult Wikipedia, or a dictionary, or any guides to the idiom.
"a choice of taking what is available or nothing at all"
"When the only options are either accept what is offered or refuse it, we have 'Hobson's choice'."
Your style guide is saying to avoid using the phrase to describe a difficult choice between two real alternatives. And if it just says "it doesn't mean X" without saying "it does mean Y", you should get a better style guide.
Well tell that to my State's Supreme Court.
It is not a Hobson's choice, there are plenty of other employers, your current job is by no means the only one in existence, it's not even a large minority of jobs available. That's what makes this different from the OSHA rule, whether Judge Ho recognizes it or not: the OSHA rule covers a great many employers, meaning it substantially limits your options. In some professions, you'll never find an employer that is smaller than the threshold, so it presents a Hobson's choice. This doesn't. It's one employer. The remedy is damages.
Like I said: By that argument, "take it or leave it" is not a Hobson's choice. Neither is "take the horse nearest the door, or find another livery stable".
"there are plenty of other employers, your current job is by no means the only one in existence, it's not even a large minority of jobs available. "
And if your profession is airline pilot, and the airlines all have the same requirement?
Well, you can always become a Walmart greeter!
And if your profession is airline pilot, and the airlines all have the same requirement?
Does anyone have a "right" to be a pilot?
Go get another job...Or if you must be a pilot find a small charter company that doesn't have the requirement.
It's the height of hilarity to hear the people on the right -- who for years have been telling people that they aren't entitled to their chosen job or profession and to to go get another job if they are being treated unfairly or poorly or being discriminated against at their work and shit all over discrimination and sexual harassment lawsuits -- to now sit here with a straight face and take the position that their crazy beliefs should be protected by the government and that their private employers should be forced to accommodate them.
Seriously, the right has no fucking principles other than "I should get what I want and everyone else can get fucked"
Then for many employees at-will employment is a hobson's choice, since the wages and terms are often of the non-negotiable ("take it or leave it") variety. Same for any consumer contract or transaction, like a credit account, utility service, and most everything else. They are all contracts of adhesion. To the extent there is any choice, it is just among other "take it or leave it" contracts of adhesion.
But where is the force? Does it require that religion be involved? Some of terms of these unilaterally amendable contracts of adhesion violate the heck out of my conscience, yet I'm not forced because I needn't adhere. I'll suffer for sure if I don't adhere, but I can choose to suffer. And I don't have the benefit of various religious doctrines that wash me clean of my sins post hoc if I make a mistake, I just have to suck it up and live with my choices (to the extent that choosing between different adhesion masters is a choice).
Some employers have a nicotine-free hiring policy, in part, to reduce healthcare costs. A vaccination policy could also reduce healthcare costs, but apparently only so much as religious people will allow?
The blackman kid seemed a lot more reasonable around 8 months ago; https://reason.com/volokh/2021/03/31/will-law-schools-require-students-to-be-vaccinated/
A prospective employee can eschew their healthcare benefit to be hired as a smoker, pay a little more towards insurance price- sharing, or negotiate a deal.
A mandate says there will be no negotiation, no accommodation, no exception. That’s patently unamerican.
What if an Orthodox Jew wants a job in a non-kosher deli but doesn't want to handle ham? What if a Muslim wants a job as a waiter in a restaurant that serves alcohol but doesn't want to handle alcohol? At some point, if your scruples are getting in the way of doing your job, then you need to find other employment.
And before someone jumps in with vaccines aren't job related in the same way that serving food and beverages in a food service job are, yes they are. The federal government is spending millions of dollars to pay for the hospitalizations of stupid people who won't get vaccinated. If your scruples are contributing to a wholly unnecessary drain on the federal budget, well, maybe you shouldn't be working for the federal government. I'm quite certain that if I were making a private choice that were costing my employer a lot of unnecessary money, I would be told to find another job.
If the employer suddenly changed their business to create that trade, then yes, the decision whether to keep their job or walk away would be a Hobson's choice.
If they are looking for a new job, and they only have one offer, likewise.
Deciding whether to apply at a kosher or halal or unclean deli, or which of those to accept an offer from, would not be Hobson's choice. Neither is a contract negotiation where there is a meeting of minds as to what kinds of items will be handled or sold.
The federal government is spending millions of dollars because people won't vaccinate. An unvaccinated federal employee has demonstrated a total disregard for the financial well being of his employer. That alone justifies termination. It sure would in the private sector.
The federal government is spending millions of dollars because it wants to spend lots of money and doesn't give a fuck what it's actually spending the money on.
Get an amendment! (/taunt)
😛
Matthew,
That is a gross exaggeration. Countries with high rates of vaccination approaching 80% of total population have rates of new infections (per capita) similar to that of the US. That The US government is spending millions of dollars is irrelevant to your factual error.
That does NOT mean that one should not be vaccinated.
I said absolutely nothing about vaccination rates or whether or not people should get vaccinated. The factual error here is yours, not mine.
Your correct. It was K_2 who said it. Sorry.
So if a Kosher deli decided to start serving non-Kosher food the staff there should be able to enjoin them from firing them for refusing to handle the latter items?
Bogus hypothetical.
Then it would not be a kosher deli.
But maybe the staff refuses to put cheese on pastrami sandwiches.
Krychek_2
December.14.2021 at 9:53 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"And before someone jumps in with vaccines aren't job related in the same way that serving food and beverages in a food service job are, yes they are. The federal government is spending millions of dollars to pay for the hospitalizations of stupid people who won't get vaccinated. "
The government is also spending millions of dollars for "smart People " who got vaccinated with vaccines only work effectively for for a short period of time
currently in Minnesota (which is similar to most every state in the US), 35%-50% of the total cases, total hospitalizations and total deaths are people who have been vaccinated.
Vaccinations have been a good short term solution reducing the infection rate of the vaxed by approx 50%, but they are not even close to being a long term solution. Natural immunity has proven to be vastly stronger and longer lasting than any of the vaccines.
"vaccines only work effectively for for a short period of time"
So what to this? People get flu shots every year.
Queen Amalthea
December.14.2021 at 10:29 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"vaccines only work effectively for for a short period of time"
So what to this? People get flu shots every year."
Yes people get flu shots every year of which they are only marginally effective. Thanks for proving my point !
Marginally effective? They reduce the risk of flu by about 50%. You seem to be arguing 'but yeah, you have to get them every year!' as if this proves...something? Every year you get them they significantly reduce risk of something bad.
And tetanus shots are every 10 years, etc. Every vaccine has it's own regimen. Time between shots has nothing to do with effectiveness and everything to do with the cost/benefit of taking them.
"So what to this? People get flu shots every year."
And... which employers, or state or federal authorities, are forcing people to get flu shots every year?
Flu shot mandates are not unusual, especially for healthcare workers.
And students.
But not every 4 months
Where are you getting your anti-vax disinformation from? Surely not the state's website, which has actual data.
TL,DR: In MN, the case rate is significantly higher for unvaxed than fully vaxed in every age category. Death rates are far higher for unvaxed versus fully vaxed.
Data for week ending 11/7/2021 (most recent on the state web site):
For people 65+, the case rate is 90 per 100,000 for fully vaxed, 704 per 100,000 for unvaxed (biggest spread; lower for younger folks).
The total death rate (all ages) is 1.5 per 100,000 for unvaxed, 29 per 100,000 for unvaxed.
Pore through the data at your leisure. And maybe take a basic stats class so you understand what you're reading.
Also, if someone can offer a pointer on how to get reason.com to not "helpfully" block http://www.health.state.mn.us slash diseases slash coronavirus slash stats slash vbt I'd surely appreciate it.
Zarniwoop
December.14.2021 at 11:42 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"Where are you getting your anti-vax disinformation from? Surely not the state's website, which has actual data."
Yes I am getting the data for the MN state website. they provide an excel schedule of covid cases. See also health skeptic.
Zarniwoop
December.14.2021 at 11:42 am
Flag Comment Mute User "The total death rate (all ages) is 1.5 per 100,000 for unvaxed, 29 per 100,000 for unvaxed."
That statement is highly and intentionally misleading since it takes into account deaths since march 2020.
The six month loss of vaccine effectiveness started in July august of 2021. For the period August through Nov, the vaxed death count was 678 and unvaxed death count was 980 - The vaxed deaths were approx 31% of the total, the months of Oct * Nov were higher - approx 40-45% of covid deaths were the vaxed.
Zarniwoop
December.14.2021 at 11:42 am
Flag Comment Mute User
That site allows you to easily visualize case, hospitalization, and death rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated populations over any time period you select. I spent a few minutes playing with it and I don't see any way to spin those numbers as suggesting that vaccines are ineffective.
Noscitur a sociis
December.14.2021 at 2:55 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
That site allows you to easily visualize case, hospitalization, and death rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated populations over any time period you select. I spent a few minutes playing with it and I don't see any way to spin those numbers as suggesting that vaccines are ineffective."
The excel spreadsheet provided by MN doesnt match up with the graphics on the MN website. The graphics (on MN neat little slidebar which allows for selecting any period) shows vaxed case rates, death rates , hospitalization rates to be approximately 10% of the unvaxed rates.
However, the hard data provided by MN shows the vaxed cases for death, hospitlizations, and cases to range from 35%-50% since august. Vaxed cases 40%case rate /70% vaxed population vs 60 %case rate / 30% vaxed rate = 2x-3x greater infection rate for the unvaxed instead of the 10x posted on the MN website which you mention.
keep in mind that the vaxed infection rate/hospitalization rate / death rates have been rising as the effectiveness of the vaccines continue to wane. Similar results are occurring in most every other state.
Is this supposed to be an argument against vaccine effectiveness?
Noscitur a sociis
December.14.2021 at 4:41 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
However, the hard data provided by MN shows the vaxed cases for death, hospitlizations, and cases to range from 35%-50% since august. Vaxed cases 40%case rate /70% vaxed population vs 60 %case rate / 30% vaxed rate = 2x-3x greater infection rate for the unvaxed instead of the 10x posted on the MN website which you mention.
"Is this supposed to be an argument against vaccine effectiveness?"
No its not an argument for or against vaccine effectiveness. Just providing basic data for a benchmark so that you can ascertain a realistic assessment of vaccines effectiveness.
Just need to have an understanding of its limitations and comparison of natural immunity along with being able to develop a better grasp of how to acheive the long term goal (vs short term wacko safetyism )
N_a_s,
So how do you explain yesterday's report about 900 cases at Cornell in which most were vaccinated?
I see those on both sides arguing with gross exaggerations or misleading statement. Data are wantonly cherry picked.
At this point the effectiveness of vaccines has been seen (but not measured to be much lower against Omicron than against any of the previous variants of concern. The effectiveness against the Alpha, Delta, Gamma, and P.1 strains is attenuated by as much as 2x within 6 months. But the Booster restores most of that effectiveness.
Omicron appears to produce a milder disease in most patients as the fatality statistics in South Africa now clearly show after 6 weeks of spread, but some people do die from this variant.
It is generally foolish to avoid vaccination and other prophylactic measures. But claims (especially by politicians) that massive vaccination will wipe out COVID-19 are falsehoods as is demonstrated by the caseloads in the EU.
There are bona fide medical reasons that some persons should NOT receive some (or even most) of the vaccines. Those should be respected and rigorous enforcement of other prophylactics is needed.
"Also, if someone can offer a pointer on how to get reason.com to not "helpfully" block"
Yeah it's a pain with longer URLs. Sometimes I just to para breaks at the slashes like this
http://www.health.state.mn.us
/diseases
/coronavirus
/stats/vbt
It's clunky but usually gets through the filter.
Here's one for you. From May (once more than half were vaccinated) through November, the Great State of Vermont has had more than 35% of its positive cases among the vaccinated, and 55% of the Covid deaths are among the vaccinated.
https://www.healthvermont.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pdf/COVID19-Weekly-Data-Summary-11-19-2021.pdf
Which would seem to suggest that the vaccines are effective, no?
effective for the first 6 or so months
Well, no -- not without loading "suggest" to the breaking point.
Taking the above stats at face value and without looking at the timing of the vaccine uptake and death curves, 55% likely is a fairly small number of percentage points away from the average % vaccinated over that time span. So the vaccines would appear to be significantly underperforming the original representations re decrease in risk of death. (Alternately, it's possible that a good number of the deaths are not actually caused by COVID and the 55% death rate is essentially just measuring the population vaccination rate with the vaccine providing a more substantial decrease in actual COVID deaths, but the faithful have dug in fairly hard against that possibility over the past couple of years so it's probably too late to pivot now.)
On cases, given the significant (often intentional) disparity between testing of the vaccinated and unvaccinated, that a smaller percentage of those testing positive have been vaccinated doesn't say much on its own.
And if the 35% really IS representative of the overall population, that would say that the vaccines are somewhat good at decreasing cases, but that the vaccinated who do catch it die at higher rates than the unvaccinated.
So keeping in mind it's a relatively small sample size, if those stats are anywhere close to accurate then there's not a lot of good news there.
This post won't age well when we are on the Omega variant and the 14th shot and mandates up the gazoo. Places like Israel are ahead of us with a 90+% vax rate and guess what. It doesn't make an F-ing difference. Take the 4th shot
The nice thing about science is that as new facts come in, we can adjust our conclusions and strategy. If there is an Omega variant, I would hope we would have made adjustments to our conclusions and strategies long before then. But based on what we know now, today, a vaccine mandate is not an unreasonable policy position. There is no requirement that policymakers be able to predict the future; merely that their policies conform to the facts as they are currently known.
"If there is an Omega variant, I would hope we would have made adjustments to our conclusions and strategies long before then."
K_2,
There is an Omega variant and it is spreading faster than scientists and health officials can act, and it is evading vaccines better that Delta.
BUT you still should get your booster and hope for the best.
Israeli daily deaths per million is about 15 times lower than ours.
https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/israel
LoL. And throughout Sept-Oct Israel's daily deaths per million were higher than yours.
Cherrypick much?
I can, too!
What's your source for that claim? The site Queen Amalthea linked to shows the U.S. substantially higher every day between 9/1 and 10/31 (though not to the same extent as currently).
Which proves zero. Have a look at the UK rates with much high vaccination percentages.
wreckinball
December.14.2021 at 10:41 am
Flag Comment Mute User
This post won't age well when we are on the Omega variant and the 14th shot and mandates up the gazoo. Places like Israel are ahead of us with a 90+% vax rate and guess what. It doesn't make an F-ing difference. Take the 4th shot.
What has been and will continue to make a difference long term is natural immunity. Reinfections currently make up approximately 1% of total cases, and breakthrough infections are currently make up approx 35%-50% of the total cases.
Citation please.
And what are the case rates per 100K? You know, something that's relevant, as opposed to merely scarily presentation intended to deceive people that don't know how statistics work?
What some people fail to recognize is that, according to the WHO, there have been ZERO deaths due to omicron.
That fear ain't gonna monger itself.
UK has reported deaths due to omicron. May not be huge, but it's non-zero.
Citation? They have reported people who have died WITH omicron, not people who have died FROM omicron.
wreck,
As of December 13, the percentage of Israel's population that are fully vaccinated is only 62% (Our World in Data)
"What if a Muslim wants a job as a waiter in a restaurant that serves alcohol but doesn't want to handle alcohol?"
There actually was a case a few years ago where a Muslim flight attendant had made arrangements with other flight attendants to handle alcohol for her when passengers ordered drinks. Apparently this worked well for 2 years until someone decided to file a complaint and have her fired.
Replace "get vaccinated" with "exercise an hour a day," "stop eating Big Macs [or other hellaciously unhealthy food of your choice]," etc.
I personally feel more people should choose to do things like these, just as you personally feel more people should choose to get vaccinated. But to pretend the system of compulsion you're cheering on would stop at COVID vaccination is somewhere between Pollyannaish and naive.
Life of Brian, that's a little like arguing that 9/11 was no big deal because that many people are killed in car accidents every week. While true, that's kinda not the point.
Things that kill people slowly, like Big Macs, are not treated the same as things that kill people quickly, like Covid. There's a reason you can buy all the white sugar you want but not all the cyanide you want. A diabetic who tells the store clerk that he knows he's killing himself will still be permitted to buy a dozen donuts, but if he gives the same speech to a clerk at a gun store he ain't walking out of the store with a Glock.
And if you spend a few minutes actually thinking about *why* the difference in treatment for all those things, you'll understand why a healthy eating mandate or an exercise mandate is not coming soon.
I respect the attempt to calibrate, but your new position just demonstrates even more clearly why this is a slippery slope: Our scruples are allowed to contribute to a wholly unnecessary drain on the federal budget, cost your employer a lot of unnecessary money, and cause massive hospital bills due to "stupid" behaviors, just as long as they don't do The One Bad Thing that you want to distinguish. Problem is, you and I aren't the ones who get to decide what The Next Bad Thing is that falls under that rubric once established.
Your original stated concern was about people making stupid decisions that incur unnecessary health care expenses. Taking as true your construct that COVID is something that kills people quickly, healthcare costs over that brief period likely are dwarfed by healthcare costs driven by a lifetime of poor health choices.
It's not a new position or a recalibration. One of the things I find most silly about the libertarian/conservative position on issues such as this is the black-or-white, either/or, if it ain't Christmas it must be the Fourth of July false alternative, in which the only two possible positions are total despotism or no regulation. Life is more complicated than that. Life is more nuanced than that. Reasonable people can draw lines. They won't always agree with where specifically the line should be drawn, but they get the concept of line drawing. It's one thing to argue that the age of consent for sex should be 16 rather than 17; it's another thing entirely to say there shouldn't be an age of consent and if you want to hook up with a 6 year old, have a good time.
And what it ultimately comes down to is how high are the stakes. The higher the stakes, the greater the permissible intrusion into liberty. If a giant comet, like the one that killed the dinosaurs, were about to crash into the earth and end all life as we know it, and the only way to stop it were for everyone to put on a silly hat and sing Popeye the Sailor Man, I would absolutely mandate that, and happily shoot anyone who didn't comply. The stakes are high and the intrusion on liberty is low.
On the other hand, I would oppose requiring everyone to take a brisk walk every morning, even though brisk walks are a good thing. The stakes are low and the intrusion on liberty is higher, and in my view the balance tips in the other direction for that one.
I think the Covid stakes are high enough to justify mask and vaccine mandates. You disagree. Fine, reasonable people can disagree on where that line should be drawn. But please stop with the slippery slope argument; it's a really dumb argument.
" Fine, reasonable people can disagree on where that line should be drawn. But please stop with the slippery slope argument; it's a really dumb argument."
With that I agree.
Krychek_2
December.14.2021 at 5:02 pm
Flag Comment Mute User "I think the Covid stakes are high enough to justify mask and vaccine mandates. You disagree. Fine, reasonable people can disagree on where that line should be drawn."
We are 18+ months into covid, and people still think mitigation such as masking has actually reduced infection rates.
https://healthy-skeptic.com/2021/12/15/masks-work-for-the-2000th-time/
oe_dallas
December.15.2021 at 10:23 am
Flag Comment Mute User
Krychek_2
December.14.2021 at 5:02 pm
Flag Comment Mute User "I think the Covid stakes are high enough to justify mask and vaccine mandates. You disagree. Fine, reasonable people can disagree on where that line should be drawn."
We are 18+ months into covid, and people still think mitigation such as masking has actually reduced infection rates.
see healthy skeptic - Dec 15 2021 posting on masking with the comparison of sweden and germany.
Joe,
Bogus comment.
Sweden does not compare well against its ethnic twin and neighbor Norway. Sweden reports 120K cases per million while Norway reports 60K. Sweden reports 1500 deaths/1M while Norway reports 210 deaths/1M.
Don - my point which remains valid is that mitigation protocols such as masking have had virtually zero impact on infection rates.
18+ months since the start of the covid pandemic, and that is well known at this point. For someone to claim that masking is effective is ludicrous based on what is well known at this point.
Joe,
You just don't know that.
Norway did far better than Sweden. That was your example of a real world test.
Don Nico
December.15.2021 at 11:58 am
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Joe,
You just don't know that.
Norway did far better than Sweden. That was your example of a real world test.
Don it is well known at this point, Masking has had virtually zero effect on infection rates. The situation in Norway is primarily due to their lockdowns.
Joe,
You're just begging the question because you don't like answer.
Joe,
Well known ONLY to you.
Also you contunally claim that natural immunity is MUCH stronger and longer lasting than vaccine induced immunity.
That has never been proved. It is your unsubstantiated claim.
"Having a crisis of conscience is not a unique irreparable harm compared to say being fired for your race for instance."
Presumably, one cannot change one's race ... so being fired for your race does not present one with a choice. However, one may change one's stance on vaccination ... so being fired for not getting a vaccine does present pressure to change this stance.
So feeling pressure entitles one to injunctive relief but being fired for something someone can't change doesn't? How does that make any sense? Do you think the psychological and emotional harm of being fired for your race is somehow less important than the psychological harms that happen from being faced with a difficult choice? How do you value that and say that the former gets money after the fact but the latter gets an injunction?
Getting vaccinated against your will is a permanent physical change to your body with unknown long-term sequelae. Losing your job over your race is certainly psychologically and emotionally harmful (hence the monetary damages) but it probably doesn't physically change your body.
That’s not a religious argument.
If you don’t want to handle ham at a deli because you’re kosher, that’s a religious argument. If you don’t want to handle the ham because you believe it will give you cancer, that’s a different argument. I’m not sure the latter argument would present a very difficult decision for the courts.
Scores of the religious over the last couple of millennia would beg to differ.
Your using the word "sequelae" does not make your argument valid. It is just another way of saying "I don't want to."
No ... it could be a legitimate religious consideration in weighing immediate good versus long-term danger.
I don't buy it. Neither will any court.
Do you think the psychological and emotional harm of being fired for your race is somehow less important than the psychological harms that happen from being faced with a difficult choice?
Yes. I don't believe there is any psychological harm from being fired for your race. Only financial harm, and that can be compensated. But being forced to choose between doing wrong and being impoverished is very different. "Fire that n-word or I'll fire you, and you'll never work again in this town." Even if you make the right choice, and then get rehired and compensated for the financial loss, the choice itself causes harm. But if you make the wrong choice you suffer no financial harm, but you'll have to live with yourself for the rest of your life, and how can anyone compensate you for that?
I don't believe there is any psychological harm from being fired for your race. Only financial harm,
Well then you are an idiot or arguing in bad faith.
Facing punishment for doing nothing wrong and being attacked for something you have no choice in causes quite a bit of psychological harm.
Maybe you don't know what psychological harm is, but being persecuted for merely existing is much more harmful psychologically than being persecuted for a choice you are making.
good post.
Also, I think that there is an important distinction between a private employer requiring vaccines, vs the government requiring vaccines. If United Airlines requires vaccines, you have the option of finding another job. If the government requires it of all employers, that option is no longer available.
What other vaccibes does United require as a condtion of employment?
No vaccibes are currently required that I know of.
How is this different from every other religious-based employment dispute? They can choose not to violate their conscience and lose their job, and that can be remedied by financial compensation for lost wages. This isn't new.
I missed this footnote earlier:
"Two of the employees also present claims under the Americans with Disabilities Act. But I do not address those claims here. The district court dismissed one employee’s claims for lack of personal jurisdiction, because that employee neither lives nor works in
Texas. And it is unclear to me whether the other employee has sufficiently alleged a covered disability. These issues can of course be decided in a future proceeding."
People alleging disability discrimination: Meh. Probably Faking anyway.
People (Christians) alleging religious discrimination: How dare they do this to you. And at Christmas of all times! Preliminary injunctive relief for you!
It's difficult for pain and suffering aside from medical costs. The worst think that could happen for lawyer's yacht purchases would be a brain scan device to show actual stress and disturbance levels.
"Did you know if you were mentally harmed, you could get 5 or 6 or maybe even 7 figures?"
"Oh woeeee is me!"
Would be rejected out of hand as scientifically invalid.
good links to numerous studies regarding vaccine effectiveness, reinfections, etc.
https://healthy-skeptic.com/2021/12/14/coronamonomania-lives-forever-part-70/
Here are some cherry-picked studies I, a person highly motivated to find such studies and not capable of evaluating them, found!
Queen Amalthea
December.14.2021 at 10:31 am
Flag Comment Mute User
Here are some cherry-picked studies I, a person highly motivated to find such studies and not capable of evaluating them, found!
Correct - cherry picked studies based on current real time data - instead of the cherrypicked political based studies
Self-awareness, how does it work?
Queen Amalthea
December.14.2021 at 11:28 am
Flag Comment Mute User
Self-awareness, how does it work?
Try to respond to the actual data
presuming you have the intellectual honesty and capability to grasp the actual data
That's nothing compared to the trillions of dollars in motivated reasoning for pharma companies and their captured revolving door regulators!
Governments institute vaccine and other public health mandates to prevent people from getting sick and, possibly, dying, and the prevent infected people from making other people sick and, possibly, dead. The government may choose to exempt people for whom the vaccine itself will make them sick and, possibly, dead, which is consistent with the purpose of the public health measure.
The idea that because you let people who might get sick and die from a vaccine avoid the vaccine you must, therefore, let people with religious objections to the vaccine off the hook is just silly. A public health-related exception to a public health measure does not entail other exemptions that aren't public health-related.
"To hypothesize that the earthly reward of monetary damages could compensate for these profound challenges of faith is to misunderstand the entire nature of religious conviction at its most foundational level."
Good Lord, it's all about the fee-fees. Whenever a private employer makes a workplace policy that a religious person may not think is not consistent with their faith a special rule must be applied to them so they won't have to live in that space of psychic distress?
If the injury is in one's mind or heart, whether based on religious belief or something else, there is nothing else but monetary damages to compensate for it, and that is an adequate remedy. If the injury is that one will be damned for eternity, there is nothing at all that can compensate for it. If that is a real thing, which our legal system is legally incapable of addressing.
I don’t see how that would be a difficult choice at all. It’s like saying having to give up candy for three seconds in order to get a billion dollars is a difficult choice.
What significance is a preferred job or nicer lifestyle for a relative blip of existence compared with the stakes of everlasting paradise vs. being tortured non stop forever? Heaven for all eternity sounds nice, and non stop torture forever and ever sounds like a bit of a bummer… but I just love the perks of free air travel SO much? Whatever shall I do?
If anything the truly devout should be thanking the airline, the government, and anyone else who puts their faith to such a trivially easy test. And if they think it’s an actual dilemma, even for a moment, that should be a clear sign that they were straying from the path, and thank God for this test that set them back on course to the pearly gates.
Too logical. But the only thing an earthly legal system can give is earthly relief for earthly harm. You can compensate a devout person who feels significant emotional distress because of a difficult choice between faith and worldly goods like employment, but what you are compensating for is the worldly harm of emotional distress. And the relief for that is money. You simply can't compensate for purely religious harm separate from worldly emotional distress. Our legal system is legally-barred from considering, and has no practical way to determine, the possible truth of a claim that one will roast in Hell forever if you take a vaccine.
So vaxxed and unvaxxed can both get and spread the disease? We keep hearing that but yet we're also told that the unvaxxed are somehow a hazard to the vaxxed. Then of course there is the newly invented description of a vax that you'll get it but not as bad.
Explain how unvaxxed is a hazard when anyone can spread it.
Rates and odds, how do they work?
Oh please show the rates and odds and the independent review of those rates and odds. Or are you just a believer? How the fuck does Israel or even the whole continent of Africa support the assertion that the unvaxxed are a threat to the vaxxed. You could also look at the UK.
Vaccinated people are less likely to have, transmit and be hospitalized than the unvaxed. Sorry dude. Yelling Israel doesn't do anything for ya.
Crude language does not a substantial argument make.
I suspect as, I think many people do, that many of the religious objections are in fact not religious but objections based on other things, like political beliefs or distrust of government.
I wonder how far an employer can go to determine if an employee's beliefs are sincere and what reasons would actually be upheld by the courts.
Filling out a questionnaire or doing an interview to test the sincerity of the beliefs could be a procedure which might be used, but what outcomes are acceptable?
Giving some of the wilder conspiracy theories as a reason might be acceptable, although most religions contain some pretty wild beliefs.
If a person's objection was based on the use of aborted fetal stem cells in the manufacture or testing of a vaccine. A future remedy might be to create new stem cell lines derived from fetal tissue obtained from miscarriages or from other sources.
If a person objected over the use of aborted stem cells one question might be whether the person had previously received vaccines which used them, although that wouldn't preclude the employee from claiming that was a recent revelation.
It's hard to see how if an employer failed to convince an employee to take the vaccine they could overcome a firmly held opinion and disprove the employee's religious sincerity to the satisfaction of a court.
Then that is my own belief that a sufficiently firmly held political belief like Marxism, Social Justice, or QAnon is little different from a religious belief like Islam, Christianity, Scientology or Pastafarianism.
So far I haven't found a convincing method to differentiate religion from a secular belief system.
People of self-proclaimed (and quite convenient) faith not only need no evidence but indeed demonstrate disdain for it. And science. And tolerance. And modernity. And reason. And principles. And consistency. And . . .
Most people of faith support the vaccinations and I think a sizeable proportion of those trying to claim religious exemptions are insincere. But, whatever.
Faith without empirical evidence seems to be the common denominator which is also a symptom of a cult.
So anyone can get it and spread it. How are the unvaxxed a hazard to the vaxxed?You can't answer. Just like a cult member you have faith
How are the unvaxxed a hazard to the vaxxed?
They are more likely to spread the disease to everyone. They are more likely to get more severe symptoms creating more hospitalizations and making it harder for vaccinated people to get routine care.
Whether vaccination is good turns out not to be very important to this case. United already makes exceptions by allowing passengers to fly without being vaccinated. Those unvaccinated passengers may include United employees not working that flight. Its actions prove United does not consider vaccination to be absolutely essential.
I would guess that United's legal jeopardy is much greater if one of their employees on the clock is responsible for giving passengers covid, as opposed to a passenger making others sick, including a United employee on her own time. Lawyers and insurance companies drive most corporate policy.
"If a person objected over the use of aborted stem cells one question might be whether the person had previously received vaccines which used them"
Or question if the person abstains from using any of the hundreds of drugs that have been tested using aborted stem cells, like, for example:
Tylenol
Advil
Aspirin
Aleve
Sudafed
Benadryl
Claritin
Robitussin
Mucinex
Tums
Ex-Lax
Pepto-Bismol
Preparation H
Ivermectin
Hydroxychloroquine
Remdesivir
I understand you point, but some of these drugs have been around longer that Stem cells. A quick check indicated stem cell were discovered in 1961.
Aspirin for one example has been around since it was introduced in introduced in 1899.
Preparation H has been around in various forms since 1935.
Pepto-Bismol began being sold in 1900.
Ex-Lax has been around since 2911.
TUMS brand was introduced to the public in 1930.
“Ex-Lax has been around since 2911.”
I think you just outed yourself as a time traveler. Thank you for coming back to save humanity from the otherwise inevitable cyborg apocalypse… and of course for bringing EX-Lax to the past where it was clearly needed. If those two missions were somehow related, that’s extra cool.
Damn lack of an edit function should be 1911.
LMAO 🙂
C_XY,
If you don't have a sense of humor, you be unwise to read the comments.
Stay well.
As a followup, while use of fetal tissue is very much a sincerely held religous belief for a small segment of the population, in their defense, very few people would have known that some form of fetal tissue had been used in some phase of the development or subsequent testing of the product (even if the testing was done 30+ years after the introduction of the product)
I think one thing the state can reasonably require is a requirement to show the belief preceded the situation at hand. While it’s true this favors organized religions with established systems of belief, it protects against cases like the prisoner who waited some time in prison before deciding that his new religion regarded porn as its scriptures and required him ro view it regularly.
Why would that case differ from that of the person whose adult-onset superstition is asserted to be entitlement to refrain from vaccination?
Indeed ... Marxism, QAnon, atheism, ... these are all religions in the sense that they are premised on an non-falsifiable assumption. The last place I want distinguishing valid from invalid religions is the government.
So can the employees sue their employer or the vax company if they have an adverse or deadly reaction to the vax? If the vaxes are safe and effective and you're just being silly to refuse then assuming liability should be no problem since we're forcing the vax. PLEASE stop it with the private BS. This is being pushed by public mandates.
Sure the Ford Pinto is safe. Oops except for the exploding gas tank. We forgot to tell you about that. Maybe if Ford could have suppressed their crash test data for 75 years they could have avoided the lawsuits? Like Pfizer is doing
Quit being an asshole and get vaccinated.
Shots are very scary to lots of people. My daughter hates them, for example.
Yep. True confession: I used to be an anti-vaxxer just like wreckinball. One of my earliest memories is running shrieking thru the doctor's offices with nurses chasing behind to drag me back for my shot. I dare say I was as passionate on the subject then as wreckinball is today.
But then I grew up (so maybe there's hope for him yet).
I always excuse those younger than 12 or so from culpability for superstition.
Didn't address the issues which makes you stupid. Just do it? Yea FO
Open wider, wreckinball. Your betters will assist you, if necessary, but you will (continue to) comply, clinger.
Thanks, Otis.
If an FDA-approved, CDC-recommended vaccine hurts you you can seek compensation from the federal government. See https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/. Decades ago drug makers were reluctant to make vaccines because even if they honestly try to comply with all FDA rules and good manufacturing practices there is always a chance of a bad reaction. So the government (as it did with worker's comp almost a century earlier) replaced the lawsuit lottery with a predictable system.
I liked to the wrong federal compensation program. In the case of the COVID vaccine, the rules are different but compensation is still available for death or serious injury. See https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp
They’ve denied all claims and refuse to follow up on them. It’s a program designed to never help.
First sentence is true. Second is nonsense:
As of November 1, 2021, the CICP has not compensated any COVID-19 countermeasures claims. Three COVID-19 countermeasures have been denied compensation because the standard of proof for causation was not met and/or a covered injury was not sustained. One COVID-19 claim has been determined eligible for compensation and is pending a review of eligible expenses.
S_0,
The standard of proof is very difficult to meet even though the bar is low. My son has a serious persistent side effect from vaccination made worse after shot 2. But trying to sue would be a fool's mission as extensive testing has uncovered a definitive physiological cause.
Privatize the profits, socialize the liabilities.
Prof. Blackman has moved from assuming that a superstition-based claim is sincere to concluding -- with no evidence -- that it constitutes a crisis.
Good luck persuading the non-gullible audience in the reality-based world to accept that.
Does Prof. Blackman swallow this supernatural nonsense personally, or is he merely a crusading warrior for the conservative political cause?
“Crisis of conscience”
Bull.
Also, shit.
You really don't have much depth to your arguments do you. At least you could cut and paste the same tired BS like the Rev,
Please the depth we should ascribe to largely disingenuous claims of religious (superstition-based) exemption from the common, generally applied obligations of citizenship.
I'd like to repeat my invitation from an earlier thread: can you point me to what you consider the most persuasive case that there is a religious obligation not to receive a COVID vaccination?
It's a penumbra cast by the sense of the New Testament, rather than any of the actual text.
Nas,
It is difficult to argue that Christian Scientists, who have a long-standing and pervasive belief against such interventions do not have a bona fide case whether you or I share their belief system or not.
Lethally reckless, superstitious, antisocial, hypocritical, belligerently ignorant, science-disdaining, backward, virus-flouting citizens who (claim to) believe nonsense should constitute a pass with respect to civic obligations are among my favorite culture war casualties.
Ho, ho, ho, everyone! Merry Clayton!
Ho is going to make an excellent Supreme.
If by excellent you mean engaging in illogical analysis to make up unheard of exceptions under the law for his favored groups while doing so with a petulant and whiny writing style, I guess you could say that.
Well, yeah, especially when you phrase it that way.
I phrased it accurately.
You've just become a troll now trying to get a rise out of people.
People here were MAD! about a dissent. Who cares? 2-1 or 3-0, plaintiff's still lost.
Just pointing out the reason for the dissent. Its more interesting than the 100th vaccine case.
People are mad because a federal judge with life tenure willfully misunderstood employment law to engage in whiny special pleading for his favored religion. And someone who teaches future lawyers said: awesome.
" And someone who teaches future lawyers said: awesome. "
Future lawyers . . . and paralegals, right-wing think-tankers, backwater church administrators, document reviewers, and delivery drivers?
Why assume the relevant law students will pass a bar examination?
Where are you going to find enough downscale bigots and superstitious knuckle-draggers to put Ho on the Supreme Court? There is more to modern America -- and much better -- than one can view among the depleted human residue that remains in Can't-Keep-Up, Ohio after generations on the wrong end of bright flight.
Don't you ever take a trip to the big city -- Akron, Toledo, Steubenville, Dayton -- to see more of the world, maybe catch a Donnie and Marie Christmas show, a Left Behind festival, or a Benny Hinn spectacular?
I get the feeling ppl see "COVID" and think special rules apply. If this vaccine requirement was handled outside of COVID, the normal rules apply. The normal rules dont favor an injunction.
On the other hand, I get the feeling that the right is using 6 conservative justices and COVID to overturn normal rules related to how religious exemptions are treated, consciously or unconsciously.
To be fair, the left is using COVID to attempt to expand government authority (CDC, OSHA, etc.), so this is not a right or left problem.
And I dont really blame people for opportunistically trying to renegotiate the rules.
Appellate Courts (and Supreme Court) should be more temperate and thoughtful, not rush to issue shadow docket opinions "because covid."
How are the unvaxxed a hazard to the vaxxed?You can't answer. Just like a cult member you have faith
Oh my God.
Anything illogical here: if planes are cool, and people who ride on planes are cool, and people who write on planes are cool, then Professor Blackman must be cool?
Readers might try the experiment of replacing “faith” and “conviction” with “superstitious Devil worship” in Ho’s opinion. If you see the force of the argument as diminished, you may have learned something. If not, then you’re at least consistent in your regard for the arational and irrational.
If the appellate decision accurately portrays the district court's decision, the plaintiffs are likely to win if they stick to their beliefs and are disciplined. Not a moral judgment here about whether they should win. Only an observation about how federal judges in Texas appear to view the evidence.
A very good ruling and I hope it sets precedent. Too many courts assume that firing someone is not irreparable harm because it can be remedied by money damages. But rendering someone homeless can't.
Maybe they should get a new job instead of deciding to become homeless.
Unless you're legitimately trying to say that there isn't time between the two events?
In which case, lol.
Why homeless?
Have the 7-Elevens, Dollar Generals, Taco Bells, and check-cashing stores in America's rural stretches stopped hiring?
Dissents from orders denying injunctions don't generally "set precedent".
Or get referred to as "rulings" for that matter.
Are you praising the majority ruling or Ho’s dissent?
I don’t think a dissent does much in the way of setting precedent.
To encourage a forthright discussion, I suggest a requirement that all commenters defending religious exemptions for Covid vaccinations be required to state their own religious justifications for exemption, and certify that they themselves remain unvaccinated.
I have all 3 shots and still defend the right of free exercise of religion.
I don't own a gun but still defend the right to keep and bear arms.
I've never marched in a protest but ...
Get the idea, some people can defend things not important to them. Sad you cannot.
I have a recently acquired religious belief that the government should have been working on vaccination against Coxsackieviruses instead and I certify that not one drop of gene-hacked mRNA has been injected into my body.
Stephan,
That comment is simply disingenuous sophistry.
Perhaps Justice Barrett is a woman of such faith that she can't imagine a mandate such as this one causing her a crisis of conscience. Perhaps if she were in the shoes of these petitioners she would be so strong in her convictions that she wouldn't even see the possibility of complying in order to keep her job; it would be crystal clear to her that her only option would be to quit her job and sue the airline. It's only those of us with weaker convictions that could have a crisis, torn between doing the right thing and poverty, and thus suffer irreparable harm.
Would those of you supporting the vaccine mandate be equally supportive of employer-mandated liposuction for all obese employees?
Not only is obesity well linked to all sorts of illnesses, but there is some evidence it may make people more susceptible to COVID.
As soon as I can catch your obesity (or you can catch my obesity), then I absolutely want employees to get this free, almost-entirely-benign-usual-one-day-of-physical-reaction type of liposuction.
I simply don't understand that the reason so many people are exercised about the vaxx refusers is not because we want to live in a nanny state, but because we are coming across an illness that is *contagious* and deadly.
Trump assured us that Covid's impact on America would be, at worst, a small handful of dead. Given that well over a half-million so far have died in just this country; can't we all agree, at least, that Covid is (a) contagious, and (b) reasonably dangerous?
Sorry about the 2nd paragraph. My kingdom for an Edit button.
Santamonica,
In the industrialized world, the case fatality rate is between 0.5% and 1%, and many deaths have contributing co-morbidities. In so to call this a "deadly disease" is exaggerating for effect. COVID-19 is not SARS or hantavirus.
Still, most people are prudent to get a vaccine plus booster and follow the commonly recommended prophylactics.
In the middle of this thread it says I have a comment awaiting moderation. But I'm pretty sure I had not read or commented on this post. Weird.
Thank you, Josh. It causes a crisis of confidence every time I have to do what the Federal Government says. Hopefully this means I will soon be able to get a nationwide injunction against the entire Federal Government.
I cant imagine a conservative court ever stating that a company has to rehire an employee or saying a company cant fire an employee.