The Volokh Conspiracy
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Another Case About "Bringing About the Difficulty"
I've been reading up recently on whether someone can be stripped of self-defense rights on the grounds that he "brought about the difficulty" by going some place where he knew or should have known he would likely need to use deadly force to defend himself. I blogged about the 1938 Wyoming State v. Bristol case, which generally says that, no, one doesn't forfeit self-defense rights this way; that, I think, is the majority view, but some jurisdictions take the opposite view.
Here's one such case, which I've written about before, but which I thought I'd note again, Laney v. U.S. (D.C. 1923); it appears to still be good law in D.C., as a 1998 D.C. case notes ("Reid cites State v. Bristol (Wyo. 1938) … for the proposition that he was entitled to a self-defense instruction 'untrammeled by [the] provoking-the-difficulty language embodied in [Instruction] 5.16-B.' We cannot follow these cases because they are contrary to seventy-five years of District of Columbia precedents, going all the way back to Laney."). An excerpt from Laney:
This appeal is from a verdict and judgment of the Supreme Court of the District of Columbia, adjudging appellant, defendant below, guilty of the crime of manslaughter. The indictment charged the defendant with the crime of murder in the first degree, growing out of the killing of one Kenneth Crall, during a race riot in Washington on July 21, 1919….
Defendant [William Laney] testified: "On the night of the 21st of July, 1919, I went to the theater with Mattie Burke, and came back and went up on Seventh street at the request of Teresa Dobbins, to get Florence and Garfield Wood. On my return to 617 Massachusetts avenue, as I got to the corner where the Home Savings Bank is located, a large crowd that was there started to yelling 'Catch the nigger' and 'Kill the nigger' and started to chase me. I ran ahead of them down Massachusetts avenue. When I got near to 617 Massachusetts avenue, I pulled out my gun and the crowd stopped chasing me. I went into the back yard ….
"I then put the gun in my pocket and went to the front again, intending to go back to my place of employment. The mob was attacking a house across the street, and were coming both ways on Massachusetts avenue, from the direction of Sixth and from the direction of Seventh street…. While I was in the areaway between 617 and 619, the mob came across from the south side of the street, firing and hollering 'Let's kill the nigger.' The mob was firing at me, and I shot in the direction towards Seventh street. I fired to protect my life…." [The shots killed Crall, who was apparently a member of the mob.—EV]
[I]n our opinion, viewing the evidence in the most favorable aspect, self-defense does not enter into the case.
It is clearly apparent from [certain] testimony that, when defendant escaped from the mob into the back yard …, he was in a place of comparative safety, from which, if he desired to go home, he could have gone by the back way, as he subsequently did. The mob had turned its attention to a house on the opposite side of the street.
According to Laney's testimony, there was shooting going on in the street. His appearance on the street at that juncture could mean nothing but trouble for him. Hence, when he … stepped out into the areaway, he had every reason to believe that his presence there would provoke trouble. We think his conduct in … going into the areaway was such as to deprive him of any right to invoke the plea of self-defense….
[W]hether or not self-defense can be invoked under the evidence adduced is a question of law for the court to determine. If the facts, in the judgment of the court, are not such as to admit of this defense, the issue should not be left to the mere speculation of the jury.
It is a well-settled rule that, before a person can avail himself of the plea of self-defense against the charge of homicide, he must do everything in his power, consistent with his safety, to avoid the danger and avoid the necessity of taking life. If one has reason to believe that he will be attacked, in a manner which threatens him with bodily injury, he must avoid the attack if it is possible to do so, and the right of self-defense does not arise until he has done everything in his power to prevent its necessity. In other words, no necessity for killing an assailant can exist, so long as there is a safe way open to escape the conflict….
In the present case the defendant was neither acting in defense of his property nor attempting to avoid an affray. His going out into the areaway leaves but one inference to be drawn, namely, that he knew his presence there would cause trouble.
Nor was he in a place where, under the circumstances, he had a right to be. If conditions on the street had been normal, he would have had the right to elect that way to go home; but he had no right to go there with another way equally available, if by so doing it would invite an affray, which would almost inevitably result in the taking of life.
Defendant's going from the back yard into the areaway was a voluntary act, and no principle of the law of self-defense is better established than that: "Where a person voluntarily participates in a contest or mutual combat for purposes other than protection, he cannot justify or excuse the killing of his adversary in the course of such conflict on the ground of self-defense." …
I learned about the Laney case from Prof. Margaret Raymond's Looking for Trouble: Framing and the Dignitary Interest in the Law of Self-Defense. Laney was represented, it turns out, by "William Lepre Houston, who was considered one of Washington, D.C.'s finest African-American attorneys," and who was the father of Charles Hamilton Houston, widely regarded as one of the main architects of the litigation that led to Brown v. Bd. of Ed.
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If self-defense case law precedent in D.C. flows from a case where an African-American man was defending himself from a racist white bloodthirsty mob...that's.....very interesting. And I'll leave it at that.
Agree some of the "precedent" really is not. This is one of those cases.
Being Black in public is sufficient to waive one’s right to self-defense? It that the “He was asking for it” doctrine?
In DC, at least.
Ok, not quite, it's more "that stupid n- knew there were people in the front yard who wanted to kill him, and hell, those upstanding folk had already turned their attention to murdering a *different* n-, so when he went back to his front yard instead of slinking in the back, *that's* when he was asking for it and waived the right to self defense."
Which might actually be worse. Holy crap that's a vile argument and precedent.
This seems like the court imposed a duty for the defendant to retreat, rather than proceed to his place of employment. A lynch mob shouting for death and actively shooting is a rather more extreme example than usual, but it seems like a good example nonetheless of why the "duty to retreat" doctrine is wrong.
No; it's far worse than merely imposing a duty to retreat. A duty to retreat says that at the moment of self-defense, one must leave rather than use force if one can do so safely. That's a narrow rule, whether one agrees with it or not. This is a much broader rule that says one has a duty to entirely avoid places where one might need to exercise one's right of self-defense.
It is, as someone noted in the other thread, the analogue of a heckler's veto: if you know that your presence may lead to trouble, you may not be there at all.
Is the doctrine so narrow? I would understand Laney to have been under threat, and involved in that conflict, from the time that the mob started calling for his blood. The threat might not have been one of imminent death or great injury until he came out from the back yard, but there was a less-imminent (and continuing) threat to his life.
If that case were heard today, assuming the laws today were the same as they were at the time of the incident referenced, there would be a very different outcome.
Can you imagine a situation where a woman is told that if she dresses provocatively and goes to a certain area of town at night, that she will be raped. She nonetheless goes but with a concealed. She kills an assailant. Murder?
It is a shocking notion.
Who needs a gun if you are going to a safe area? The general idea behind carrying is to protect your right to speak, travel, etc..
This is DC we are talking about. No, it wouldn't be likely to come out any differently today.
Perhaps, but I think the issue of self defense would now be passed onto the jury, and today, that D.C. jury finds - self defense.
"Can you imagine a situation where a woman is told that if she dresses provocatively and goes to a certain area of town at night, that she will be raped..."
Or if she dresses provocatively, goes on a date with a man, goes back to his apartment while provoking him in the car, etc. Talk about bringing about the difficulty.
Or walking while gorgeous through a U.N. employee run refugee camp. More difficult. In both instances, she should pack some heat.
It's what undercover cops do now but good example.
It's quite clear from that comment that you have exactly no idea what undercover cops do now.
"The right to speak, travel, etc."
Where "etc." might include the right to do investigatory work of local and non-local crimes or suspected crimes. All but five states require a license to do private investigatory work, but as a business.
But if an individual is just doing investigatory work for fun or passion, any investigations being carried out could easily put one in harms way, even in a "safe" area.
Advocates of shoot-'em-up laws, like most gun nuts, are destined to sustain the consequences of choosing the wrong side of a culture war. Those who expect -- or want -- the standards of 1938 Wyoming to prevail in modern America will be disappointed.
See you down the road apiece, clingers.
The Rev. rejects the standards of 1938 Wyoming, and embraces the racist standards of 1923 D.C.
You figure 1938 Wyoming was less racist than 1923 District of Columbia?
How many race riots where there in 1938 Wyoming?
How many Black residents weren't lynched or run out of town by the enlightened, tolerant, educated residents of 1938 Wyoming?
Keep it up, "colorblind" Republicans. Young Americans (especially those who are educated, informed, and reasoners) are watching, and forming enduring political preferences and lifelong voting patterns.
Clingers hardest hit.
"Keep it up, "colorblind" Republicans."
Most Dems bristle when Republicans point out that Democrats are the real racists. Arthur is proud of it.
America's remaining bigots no longer wish to be known as bigots, at least not publicly (except in the most deplorable backwaters). Instead, they prefer to hide behind euphemisms such as "traditional values," "conservative values," "colorblind," "heartland," and "religious values."
They also tend to be Republican voters and conservatives, a point many Republicans wish to ignore or obscure but most Americans understand.
What you call the right side of the culture war (much of which I agree with), unfortunately sounds, in practice, like "easy overturning of constitutional limits against government overreach".
Far from the next generation's with-it attitudes of propriety, that's an ancient tool of nascent dictatorship.
Which shoot-'em-up laws cannot to avoided without offending constitutional limits against government overreach?
Which gun safety laws would be unconstitutional?
There's a bunch of armed black people protesting in front of the Arbury courthouse.
For some reason I haven't seen any left-wingers claiming that they're looking for a fight, and I certainly haven't seen anyone claim that they would lose their right to defend themselves if some crazy white guy attacked them and tried to take one of their weapons.
" There's a bunch of armed black people protesting in front of the Arbury courthouse. "
If true, that is a display of poor judgment.
And a practice not likely to withstand continuing American progress.
"If true, that is a display of poor judgment."
I'm sure black people appreciate lectures from cranky old white guys about poor judgment.
If you listened to a word that your side says, you'd know that it's white privilege that allows you to lecture black people about the best way to confront white supremacy.
For the umpteenth time, Arthur, people like me shouldn't have to lecture you about how to be a good progressive.
Seriously, you think that the black guy had no right to be on the public street, simply because there was a mob in the street baying for his blood?
Is that what the right side of the culture war looks like?
Is this racist decision from 1923 an example of enlightened, modern America?
You are delusional.
Serious question, how does the bringing about difficulty doctrine jive with the first ammendment right to peaceably assemble? Are individuals allowed to strip me of my first ammendment rights through threats of or actual violence? How can I be held responsible for someone else's actions? If I peaceably assemble and you choose to attack me, why is it then legal to strip me of the ability to defend myself because you chose to be violent?
Also 2A rights
Serious answer, Illocust. Because congress ought to be free to pass a law to reinforce and protect the right of peaceable assembly, by defining gun carrying at a public assembly as not peaceable. That would do no more than recognize the already-existing conflict between the 1A and the 2A with regard to assemblies. Rights in conflict is nothing new. Nothing says the that in every such conflict the 2A trumps everything.
by defining gun carrying at a public assembly as not peaceable
In other words, defining an act that involves no violence as an act that is inherently violent.
They should also define men with functional penises being in the presence of women as being rape.
"Because congress ought to be free to pass a law to reinforce and protect the right of peaceable assembly, by defining gun carrying at a public assembly as not peaceable."
Sign. Congress doesn't get to say what words in the Constitution mean.
Sure, Congress can define up as down, but that will not make it so.
Carrying a gun can of course merely be a sensible precaution to deter violence,
There's no guarantee it will work, of course. Rosenbaym attacked Rittenhouse anyway, and Ahmaud Arbery attracked Travis McMichael anyway, but that's not the way to bet.
That doesn't answer any of his questions, it just repeats your totalitarian hobby horse.
No, Stephen, Congress can't pass a law declaring exercise of a civil liberty as prohibiting exercising another civil liberty. They can't pass a law saying you can peaceably assemble, OR pray, but not both at the same time.
They can't declare it to be inherently unpeaceful to exercise a civil liberty.
Aren't these cases cousins to issues of hecklers' vetoes, especially given the peaceable assembly issue raised by Illocust?
Isn't the likelihood that presence in a certain place, or actions in a certain circumstance will provoke violence a fact question for the jury? Treating it as a matter of law is actually covert judicial notice, where judges decide that "everybody knows" something is provocative. In other words, if an open request for judicial notice on "common knowledge" grounds would be denied given the rules for such things, judges ought not to import such a concept surreptitiously. If dozens of people went, armed, to Kenosha to protect businesses from attack, and only one such person was attacked, then how likely could it be that their mere presence was enough to provoke attacks?
If you walk into the Crips headquarters dressed as a Blood, and they chase you out, how long do you have to keep running before you regain your right to defend your life? Because even if you accept the Rioters' veto theory under which showing up to protect people from rioters counts as provocation, Mr. Rittenhouse was being chased or ambushed.
I don't think your Crips/Bloods analogy works here. Dylan Roof might be free today if so.
Not following you. Dylan Roof wasn't pursued by bloodthirsty church ladies who he had to shoot in self defence.
Seems kind of odd (IANAL) that the court would say he went from a place of safety (some stranger's back yard) to a place he had no right to be (the driveway and front where the mob found him). He had more right to be out front than in the back yard, even if it was a dumb move on his part, but then, I can easily imagine his confusion, being the target of a race riot and being a trespasser, wondering which one was safer.
It is a real concern whether there was pretext at work here, whether a black man could get a fair hearing anywhere in 1923. But if we take the opinion at face value it does say Laney had a choice to leave the back yard by two routes, one that would confront the mob and a second one that wouldn't, and he chose the first. The court didn't say he should stay where he was.
You figure straight, Christian White males were not oppressed in 1923 America?
You are at the wrong blog.
Depends. Catholics could be depending on where in the country they lived and especially if they were Irish immigrants. Make it "protestant" instead.
God you are a stupid fuck, Kookland. Voize suggested nothing whatever about the oppression, or not, of Christian White males. Learn to distinguish between wehat you read and the voices in your head or take your meds if you can't do that without pharmaceutical assistance.
A bizarre concept. So what would have happened to the member of the mob who shot at the guy if he had lived and was arrested? Is his conduct not illegal? Is the guy just supposed to let himself be subjected to unlawful conduct without any resistance?
"Duty to retreat" laws are a heckler's veto on your right to assemble, travel and carry out any number of other legal and protected activities. Laney may still be binding precedent in DC but it was never "good law".
Bingo.
But… we can still slut-shame rape victims who walk in places, at times, and/or while wearing outfits “they shouldn’t,” right?
Sure, but if they're armed, they can feel "threatened" and kill you in "self defense." 1A, 2A, *and* therapy all wrapped up in one high-capacity magazine.
The test for self defence isn't your feels.
I see what you did there.
This reasoning strikes me as likely bullshit to convict a black man. Fast-forward to today and we have white assailants chasing down a black man, who claim self defense when the black man attempts to defend himself against them. If they get off, we have a very sick justice system.
where is that happening?
The Arbery trial in Georgia.
"If they get off, we have a very sick justice system."
Anybody why watched the trial knows that the defendants have a rock-solid dirty toenail defense.
If the victim's toenails are long, my client did nothing wrong!
She's no Johnnie Cochran.
Khaki shorts too. Any reasonable person having caught a glimpse of those would surely be in fear for their life.
Arbery wan't chased down. Just watch the video. The McMichaels are parked in the road in front of him and he chooses to run directly at Travis. Then, when Travis is alarmed at his incipient attack and raises the shotgun he runs around the truck to attack Travis McMichael from a different direction. If he's just kept running he'd have endured no more than a few shouts of "Stop!". Or if he'd stopped the police who'd been summoned would have warned him to obey the "No Trespassing" signs and let him go.
Arbey let his own fears get him killed. And people who filled hiis head with those fears bear responsibility for that.
Travis testified that prior to the events captured on video, 1) he and his father chased Arbery and 2) Arbery knew it.
Priour to the events seen on video the McMichawls pulled up beside arbety and demanded he stop, but Arbery bolted. So, yeah they had to chase Arbery to get in possition to do that and Arbery knew it.
Now... what is your point? Even if Travis hadn't encountered Arbery on Feb 11 committing misdemeanor trespass on the English place (thus giving him the "immediate knowledge" of an Arbery crime justifying a citizen's arrest) demanding that he stop and talk to them wasn't illegal. The McMichaels never laid hands on or threatened Arbery though, again, they had the right to (implied by the right to arrest) to do so.
The twisting yourself in a pretzel logic to try and find a way to deny Kyle's self defense claim is now getting ridiculous.
The precedent referenced has so much wrong with it that it would never ever be applied in the exact manner today anywhere.
Its up there with Dred Scott. Don't use Dred Scott as precedent.
Kyle's case was slam dunk self defense.
The fact that the whole event was on video and the prosecution proceeded is the real issue. Why? It's as if after exculpatory evidence was presented in regards to Duke Lacrosse and they still went ahead. No they dismissed the case, fired the prosecutor and disbarred him. Same should happen here.
Professor Volokh isn't trying to deny Rittenhouse anything.
The Rittenhouse case and several others have raised interest in the current state of self defense law.
The professor is just exploring what the current law is in various states/jurisdictions.
It's should be obvious as hell that the point the professor is making is that, at least in this case, the court twisted the law to deny a black man his justified use of self defense against a racist mob.
If opponents of a vigorous right to self defense want to cite this case let them, it hardly proves the point they want to make.
Agree with most of the callers above. But going into the future, and looking back at the Rittenhouse trial a week or so ago, and it is even scarier. The thing that probably drew out the verdict so long is that the prosecution managed to get a Provocation jury instruction, based on the lossless HD version of a video that they hadn’t given the defense until late in the trial. They had given the defense a lossy version earlier, and that was what the jury saw, until closing arguments, when the prosecution whipped out their high res version, and tried to make the argument that it showed KR waving his gun around, or something.
Point is that the prosecution seemed to essentially believe that Rittenhouse deserved to spend the rest of his life in prison because he had the audacity to go to a BLM/AntiFA riot armed, and tried to defend himself. They studiously avoided charging the rioters and arsonists, but instead spent their efforts trying to convict someone who had defended himself against them. Meanwhile, the police and National Guard had been ordered by Dem office holders to stand down, and let the rioters and arsonists have their fun, even if some died as a result.
In reality, what these types of law do is give politicians a heckler’s veto to riots. If the politicians agree with rioters and arsonists, then they can prevent the police and National Guard from interfering, and jail anyone attacked by the mob who tries to defend themselves. And, no, I don’t see much difference at all, between the Dems supporting Jim Crow and the Klan 100 years ago, and their support for BLM and AntiFA this last couple of years. They supported rioters and arsonists by preventing police intervention, and then try to jail anyone who defends themselves from the mobs they are allowing to run wild.
+1
The analogy is precise, only the names of their goon squads has changed.
Two hypos from opposite ends of the spectrum...
Hypo #1: 250 lb Adam and 100 lb Bob have a dispute in a bar. Adam threatens to kill Bob. Bob goes out to his car, gets a gun, and returns, thinking 'if he makes good on his threat, the size difference means I'll have to shoot him or be killed, but I'm OK with that because I really want a beer, now, in this particular bar'. Adam does attack, and Bob shoots him. Adam is clearly wrong, but what about Bob?
Hypo #2: Charles and Dave live in the same small town (one grocery, one post office, one gas station, one clinic). In fact they live across the street from each other. Dave once asked Charles to clean up after Charles' dog, and Charles got so angry he said 'The next time I see you I'm going to kill you'. A few days later Dave has a doctor's appointment for a routine physical at the clinic. When it's time to leave he sees Charles outside shagging flies, so he arms himself before heading to the clinic. When Charles attacks him with the bat, Dave shoots him.
Any law that penalizes Dave seems quite wrong to me. What is Dave supposed to do? Move out of town? Never leave his house?
OTOH, I'm not so sure about Bob. I hear the argument that he has a perfect right to have a beer in any bar he wants, OTOH we'd like to avoid shootings in bars as much as is possible - for the sake of the other patrons among other reasons.
As is often the case, I'm seeing shades of gray.
Bob should make sure he is familiar with state and local laws about carrying a firearm in an establishment where alcohol is served. I believe some states prohibit that entirely (or within bars specifically). I think mine says that you can carry a weapon or drink, but not both. In both cases, the rationale is to keep drunken fights from becoming deadly, and he would probably lose a claim of self-defense by violating those laws.
"Bob should make sure he is familiar with state and local laws about carrying a firearm in an establishment where alcohol is served"
Bob lives in one of the (few, I think) states where the prohibition (heh) is on being armed and intoxicated (BAC over 0.X%), as opposed to mere presence. So he's probably OK for the first Bud Lite. In any event, the fight happened before Bob's first sip.
But yeah, I should have put Adam and Bob in an ice cream parlor.
So he's probably OK for the first Bud Lite.
Bob is no longer a sympathetic defendant.
+1
Bob has a right to be there and ought to have a right to self defence. If the law says otherwise that doesn't change the normative situation. A juror ought to ignore any instruction to the contrary.
Not the point of the hypothetical.
" Bob should make sure he is familiar with state and local laws about carrying a firearm in an establishment where alcohol is served. I believe some states prohibit that entirely (or within bars specifically). "
This is the Volokh Conspiracy, a certified gun nut blog -- so where does the Second Amendment mention intoxication or saloons?
I had to explain the law on CCW to a friend of mine that owns a bar and grill in downtown Seattle. WA law allows carry in restaurants that serve alcohol, but not in bars, or the bar section of a restaurants that have a separate bar.
To make it simple, I told him: "anywhere kids can go in your Bar and Grill, people carrying can go'. He was flabbergasted, but he had owned the place for years and the subject never came up, so it's not any sort of a problem.
Bob is wrong, in my opinion. He should have reported the death threat to the police, and then pulled a restraining order against him. Then, when he went to the bar, Adam would have to leave or stay away.
Bob has an obligation to mitigate the conflict, if possible.
Dave is in the right, because he could not reasonably avoid contact with Charles. But he, too, should have reported the death threat and gotten a restraining order.
Bob is wrong, in my opinion.
Morally? Or just legally? Or both?
In terms of rational, reasonable civil behavior. It's very similar, in my view, to the collision regulations for ships. While you may be the stand-on vessel (have right of way), and be perfectly within your rights to proceed on course, you still have an obligation to do what you can to mitigate the possibility of a collision. So, you may be required to yield to someone who's operating improperly to do so.
Likewise with this confrontation. Adam may be wrong, but in a civil society, even though Bob is within his rights, he has an obligation to mitigate the possibility of conflict. That's why he should tell the police and get a restraining order, rather than provoke a conflict that may result in loss of life.
So, you may be required to yield to someone who's operating improperly to do so.
I don't think that's a particularly apt analogy. In it, the likelihood of a collision with the other ship if you proceed in accordance to your right-of-way is due to that other ship's current observable course and speed, not by that other ship's captain having made a threat that he will decide to alter course to one that will result in a collision with your vessel if you proceed. Your analogy would more applicable if Adam were in the process of throwing a haymaker into the air above the empty bar stool where Bob was intending to sit (and had every right to sit in), and Bob proceeded to do so, intercepting Adam's fist with his face.
No, the other captain could be drunk, not on the bridge (autopilot), operating recklessly, etc., etc. You still have to avoid a collision.
No, the other captain could be drunk, not on the bridge (autopilot), operating recklessly, etc., etc. You still have to avoid a collision.
??? What does that have to do with anything I said? The reason(s) for the ship's "current observable course and speed" are not at issue.
Adam has an "observable course and speed" as well in that Bob thought the threat credible enough to stop enjoying his time in the bar, exit, arm himself, and then return. Avoiding Adam, like avoiding a vessel, is simply changing course by not returning to the bar with a gun.
Adam has an "observable course and speed" as well in that Bob thought the threat credible enough to stop enjoying his time in the bar, exit, arm himself, and then return.
Adam had at that point only made a verbal threat. He was not in the process of physically carrying it out. In the shipping analogy, the other ship is already on a physical course that will cause a real, physical collision if the first ship does not take measures to avoid it. That's a very substantial and meaningful difference.
Avoiding Adam, like avoiding a vessel, is simply changing course by not returning to the bar with a gun.
No. An apt analogy would be to have to altogether avoid the same waters that the vessel you're attempting to avoid a collision with so that vessel cannot intentionally steer toward you in order to cause such a collision.
Bob is wrong because in most states guns are not allowed in bars. Maybe he should have armed himself with a Bowie knife, that's usually a good deterrent, but once again, maybe not legal everywhere.
I'd argue that Bob is narrowly legally correct, but morally on somewhat thin ice. He did have the right to do what he did from a legal perspective. He probably *should* have done as suggested and contacted the police about the death threat.
On the gripping hand, if Adam is in the habit of going around issuing death threats to people less than half his size and following up on them, it's entirely possible that he needed shooting.
Dave is in the right, because he could not reasonably avoid contact with Charles.
Why is that? He was visiting the clinic for "a routine physical". Give the standards for responsibility you're suggesting, could/should he not have just rescheduled his appointment for another time rather than arming himself for and walking into what he clearly believes is a serious threat to life/limb?
I think he saw Charles in his yard across the street from his house. Are you saying he can't leave his house?
Correct - that's the question. It's a small town - does Dave have to wait to get groceries/see his doctor/get his mail until Charles is out of town, asleep, or whatever? He schedules his appointment, then when it's time to go, oops, there's Charles. So he cancels/reschedules. Then when it's time for the next appointment, ooops, there is Charles again, etc.
I'm not sure a no-contact order works. One effective enough to protect Dave from Charles would end up excluding Charles from town. Anecdotally, from an acquaintance who has one against a stalker, you can't get one that is that comprehensive (this is what she says, IANAL, ...).
I think he saw Charles in his yard across the street from his house. Are you saying he can't leave his house?
I'm not saying he can't do anything. I'm applying your standard that he has some sort of obligation to avoid the confrontation even if it means not doing what he has every right to do. Was it absolutely necessary to leave his house right then and risk confrontation with the angry neighbor? No. He could have rescheduled his appointment, which was for something that was not time-critical.
The question here is...where do you draw the line between holding the aggressor completely responsible for his own actions and shifting some measure of that responsibility to those at whom that aggression is unjustifiably perpetrated?
The aggressor is completely responsibe for his criminal actions and the line need not move at all.
The aggressor is completely responsibe for his criminal actions and the line need not move at all.
I agree. But those to whom I am responding clearly believe that such a line is properly drawn somewhere, and I'm trying to ascertain where they think that somewhere is. So far they appear to be unable/unwilling to divulge that information.
Trying to show morons the error of their ways is never going to work. It's better to just be clear about the way it is.
I see no shades of gray at all. If Bob is penalized then the law has, unjustly, granted Adam the equivalent of a "heckler's veto" against any behavior by Bob that happens to put him where Adam will find him. (But since Adam would then attempt to kill Bob, this is not a "heckler's" but a terrorist's veto.) I would find Adam to be violating Bob's civil right to live his life in peace, and grant Bob a restraining order against him if asked -- but if Bob would rather handle the problem himself by arming, I find that completely reasonable and rightful.
It doesn't matter how trivial Bob's "need" to visit that bar is, because it is his civil right to do it with impunity as far as Adam is concerned. Full stop.
It also tends to treat Adam as a creature of instinct whose violent conduct isn't a conscious choice. He's little more than a wild animal in a cage and Bob stuck his hand inside.
That's not a helpful analogy, and you're not making it clear that you reject it, as you oght. Bob going to the doctor is not akin to sticking his hand in a cage. Adam is not in a cage, he's running loose.
The right of self-defense does not require one to retreat from places put to torch by BLM nihilists.
The right of self-defense is not subject to a "peaceful protest" exception, even if the "peaceful protesters" are burning, looting, and rioting in the name of racial justice, diversity, equity, and inclusion.
The duty to retreat doctrine is of a piece with the culture of death.
It is antithetical to a peaceful and civilized society as it tends to punish those who exercise their rights of free movement and association while rewarding those who would maim or murder the former.
One of the defense lawyers in the Ahmaud Arbury case said that Ahmaud was somewhere he didn't belong. I guess he wouldn't qualify for self defense for grabbing the shotgun under the DC theory.
The DC rule is not "somewhere he didn't belong," but rather "had every reason to believe that his presence there would provoke trouble."
I think it’s a valid point that if you’re black, the two standards applied in such a manner are not going to lead to very different results.
if you're black
There are some neighborhoods in which you can expect increased scrutiny or animosity "if you're white." Are you saying that you think that the typical prosecutor or jury will treat a black man walking in a white neighborhood as a person who has every reason to believe that he is provoking trouble, and so has given up his right of self-defense? I mean, absent favoritism of the kind shown in the Arbery case toward one of the defendants, a 37 year member of the local police department.
We are talking about areas in which it can be assumed that people will be discriminated against on the basis of their race. You appear to believe that
"...favoritism of the kind shown in the Arbery case toward one of the defendants..."
Not following the trial. Does this refer to anything specific?
The former Georgia district attorney who was initially involved in this case has been indicted for showing partiality toward the Ahmaud Arbery defendants. Defendant Gregory McMichael, a former county police officer, had been an investigator in her office for more than 30 years.
That's old news. She was the 2nd DA, not the "initial" one, to recuse herself, for precisely that reason, iirc. And the Arbery case is actually open-and-shut self defense, turned into a show trial, so I don't see her being indicted as indicating anything substantive.
Where Arbery didn't belong was inside a house being remodeled with obvious "No Trespassing" signs.
If this had all taken place inside the house, do you think that Arbery would have relinquished his self-defense rights vis-à-vis someone accosting him with a gun and without announcing his purpose or what he was attempting to do, as was the case here?
He was not "accosted with a gun". Travis didn't point his shotgun at Arbery until Arbery was well-launched into attacking him. And Greg's pistol was in his holster.
And since the GA citizen's arrest law gives (or gave, I don't know how it's been changed since, but understand it has) a citizen to arrest someone for a misdemeanor the citizen has immediate knowledge of... no, you have no self-defense right to resist lawful arrest. Duh.
Gandydancer, on what basis do you suppose Arbery's killers thought they knew Arbery was not the owner or prospective tenant of the House? Was there any testimony about how they knew that?
Well, the fact that they knew the owner of the house and knew he was going to be living in it is a good start.
That's something you'd know if you were familiar with the case at all.
The owner of the house had posted multiple videos of Arbery criminally trespassing on his premises to a neighborhood Facebook CrimeWatch group.
I don’t think the parade of horribles is valid.
I think in a reasonably fair judicial system, ordinary applications of a duty to retreat can be easily distinguished from cases where lynching victims got convicted for attempting to defend themselves.
I don’t think the parade of horribles is valid.
There was no parade of horribles in what you're responding to, so I don't know what you're going on about.
I think in a reasonably fair judicial system, ordinary applications of a duty to retreat can be easily distinguished from cases where lynching victims got convicted for attempting to defend themselves.
Where do you see anyone arguing that the latter is indistinguishable from "ordinary applications of a duty to retreat" (whatever you think those might be)?
You don’t think Professor Volokh was presenting the DC lynching case as an example of what you can expect to get if you impose a duty to retreat?
That’s exactly what a parade of horribles is. The implication is that if you rule the non-desired way, really horrible things will happen.
You don’t think Professor Volokh was presenting the DC lynching case as an example of what you can expect to get if you impose a duty to retreat?
No, because unlike you I actually read what I'm responding to before jumping to conclusions and commenting (you have a long and relatively consistent track record of commenting when you've clearly not bothered to read or understand what you're commenting on). He was simply continuing his examination of the variations in self-defense law in different U.S. jurisdictions as they pertain to the Rittenhouse case prosecution's argument that he could not claim self-defense because he "shouldn't have been there".
Even if Professor Volokh didn’t have a track record of opposing duty to retreat laws, any genuinely neutral scholar would have picked a more ordinary duty to retreat case, not a “self-defense against lynching while black” case where the reader’s sympathies will obviously lie with the defendant.
This is the standing law of the land in the nation's capital regarding self defense vis. "provocative" behavior. I think it's relevant to the discussion of whether "provoking" one's attacker negates the self defense argument when armed.
To many the duty to retreat means a requirement to sprout wings and fly.
Kyle Rittenhouse was retreating as much as he could, retreating until he was beyond the margin of safety because Rosenbaum was advancing faster. But somehow he was expected to retreat until he was tackled and could no longer effectively defend himself.
Simplifying to the playground, and, I think the comparison is appropriate here -
Duty to retreat equals allowing bigger people, bullies, to govern the conduct of others.
Did you have a school bully. Many did. It makes for a horrible day, every day. It is wrong and complaining to the principal or teacher usually finds you worse off.
Structured Chaos, so a large bunch of lefties get together to demonstrate against racist law enforcement. They actually do come in peace. Nobody is violent, nobody carries a weapon. Then a few militia types with AR-15s and full tactical gear show up, to protect . . . something. Which are the bullies; which are the others?
You mean like the armed father and daughter marching in the anti-Rittenhouse BLM rally, carrying AR-15s?
You didn't expect that sort of escalation this quickly?
Escalation what?
That father daughter team was armed and protecting another business blocks away from Rittenhouse that same night.
From the NY Post interview of the father and daughter:
"He said they were protecting a restaurant and two parking lots in the area on the night Rittenhouse shot three people, including two fatally, amid protests over police conduct.
Rittenhouse has claimed he fired in self-defense, although “I probably wouldn’t have fired my weapon,” Jade said."
I believe her. If Rosenbaum went after her the way he went after Kyle her father would have shot 'JoJo' dead before she had to.
"Her father said of the verdict, “It is what it is.
“The jury did their job, and this is America,” he said."
Hardly sounds like he was anti-Rittenhouse to me.
I understand your analogy here and why analogies are dangerous. But, I submit, they do help with understanding real life consequences. As relates to our few militia types with ARs and tactical gear. Certainly that would intimidate people in so far as not attacking the "something". If the something is actually nothing and amounts to no more than you cannot walk down this street, then I submit they are bullies. We agree.
The now peaceful "bunch", as we all know, and here I draw upon a general analogy taken from what I purport to be our common experience, that peaceful "bunch" could turn into something quite different.
I think it interesting that you set up the contrast between "large bunch" and a "few". Similarly your ending with which are the bullies vs. which are the "others" (i..e the marginalized, e.g. Camus the other). You have to have invited this response. I've accommodated 🙂
SC, I contrasted the many to the few because, so far, we have never seen a situation that I am aware of where folks carrying AR-15s at a public assembly were not vastly outnumbered by people not carrying them. So I mentioned that, and did it also with an eye to raising the question whether some folks think that at public assemblies intimidating people with guns is part of the right to bear arms.
Structured Chaos
Is that a Punk band?
so a large bunch of lefties get together to demonstrate against racist law enforcement. They actually do come in peace. Nobody is violent, nobody carries a weapon. Then a few militia types with AR-15s and full tactical gear show up, to protect . . . something.
Can you give a concrete example of that, and exactly who was "bullied" in the process?
Is that a Punk band?
That was poorly worded. I should have said, "That would make a great Punk Rock band name."
The 80s were great.
Sadly not a punk band.
Structured Chaos - it's a personal description which is not flattering.
That was not my analogy. Or are you referring to my take on the analogy.
Think San Francisco now and/or is it Los Angeles where you are now told if you are being robbed just let it happen otherwise you might get hurt or you might hurt someone. You are being shoplifted just let it happen is the current state of affairs in San Fran.
Juxtapose with the Los Angeles, Rodney King, riots which I lived through wherein the Koreans, in particular, were out there on top of their businesses with rifles dissuading looting and the like while protecting their somethings. Their businesses faired much better.
The difference of course which appears in my few examples is the "come in peace" part. My examples include rioters or very angry protesters. In any event, come in peace lasts only as long as a threat of force exists to deter something other than "come in peace".
"We come in peace" :). Lots of movies with that one liner.
That was not my analogy.
I know. I was responding to Lathrop. My quoting of your pseudonym was just a lame attempt at some wordplay.
Peaceful arson, peaceful asaults. Fuck off you lying piece of shit. There was loads of violent behavior from your peaceful protesters that you choose to ignore.
It was a hypothetical. One which has surely been matched by experience time and again. Is it your view that folks who demonstrate on behalf of causes you dislike are invariably violent?
It was a hypothetical. One which has surely been matched by experience time and again.
If that were true you would have provided some real-world examples rather that concocting a hypothetical.
Right, rioters are committing acts of arson left and right, but nobody is violent...
But it was *peaceful* arson.
"Nobody is violent, nobody carries a weapon..."
Grosskreutz hada pistol, Ziminski had a pistol, Rosenbaum only had his psych ward bag, but Huber showed that a skateboard was a weapon. And there were a LOT of shots being fired other than Ritternhouse's. This was, btw, the THIRD night of rioting.
What world are you in?
I really have no idea why your fiction publishing company went under. You're very good at it.
Lord knows, arguments by analogy are legal meat and potatoes. But at the end of the day, if you cannot put the analogy aside, and make the case entirely on the basis of its own facts, the analogy is no good. It is crazy to think that invoking hecklers' vetoes and short skirts should be accepted as decisive arguments about deadly self-defense cases.
Nobody is offering them as "decisive arguments" about anything. They're simply points that constitute parts of a larger argument.
Just because you don't grasp the purpose and applicable use of analogies doesn't mean that they aren't valid and useful ways of illustrating/conveying ideas.
We defer to your expertise on making crazy analogies that break down almost instantly, but those are not what was given above.
Has it dawned on any progressives yet that any change to make it easier to convict when there’s a self defense claim will disproportionately cause more minorities to be convicted of violent crimes? Minorities are disproportionately charged and disproportionately in need of an effective criminal defense. Take one defense partly off the table and you get disproportionately more minorities serving long prison sentences instead of being acquitted on self defense grounds.
Are progressives just really dumb, or do they not care that minorities will be hurt by the results of their latest emotional breakdown?
The important thing at this point is to establish that you can't defend yourself against the left's goon squads. Any collateral damage in the course of establishing that is irrelevant.
Targeted and victimized people have homes, family, environs, and jobs to attend to without assuming they will be viciously attacked and grievously harmed or killed any time they go about their business or daily routine.
Should every person who has been threatened at home or on the job leave and go--- where? The law does not protect them.