The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Case for Compensating Victims of Trump's Brutal Child Separation Policy
Both legal and moral considerations support it.

Media reports indicate that negotiations for a settlement to provide compensation for victims of the Trump Administration's 2017-18 family separation policy are at an impasse:
Attorney Lee Gelernt of the American Civil Liberties Union would not discuss details of the talks nor confirm a previously reported settlement proposal of several hundred thousand dollars to each affected person. He did, however, hold out the possibility of a trial, featuring parents separated from children as young as six months as witnesses, if there's no agreement to end the litigation….
About 5,500 children were forcibly removed from their parents under Trump's zero-tolerance policy in which parents were separated from their children as the administration sought to discourage people from crossing the border, even if they were presenting themselves to authorities to seek asylum.
Trump halted the practice in June 2018 amid widespread outrage, including from many Republicans, just six days before a judge ordered an end to the program in response to a lawsuit filed by the ACLU.
In addition to negotiating a potential settlement, the Biden administration has also been working to reunite some of the families. There are believed to be hundreds, and perhaps as many as 1,000-2,000, parents who were separated from their children and still haven't been located.
For reasons I covered in previous posts here and here, the child separation policy was both illegal and deeply unjust. Its illegality has been confirmed by federal court rulings against it.
Among other things, I addressed the argument that the policy was justified because the administration was merely "enforcing the law," and the canard that Trump and then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions were merely continuing policies they inherited from the Obama Administration. Even if the latter were indeed true, it would not excuse the policy or Trump's continuation of it. It would just mean that Obama deserved a share of the blame. But, while Obama did have some awful immigration policies of his own (which I condemned at the time), this one was on Trump.
Given the blatant illegality of the policy and the enormous harm suffered by the children and their families, their is a strong case for giving them hefty compensation. Legal scholar and former US Attorney Joyce Vance White outlined some of the reasons in a recent Washington Post article:
First, these aren't voluntary payments. The Justice Department is negotiating with lawyers for victims of the Trump administration's family separation policy. They are working to settle large and potentially very expensive lawsuits before a court orders the government to pay those same claims. The litigation risk here is high, and the U.S. government will almost certainly end up making payments to these plaintiffs — whether through settlements now or pursuant to court judgments later….
If…. these cases go to trial, the United States faces a thousand lawsuits over a policy a federal court has already said shocks the conscience and that Biden has characterized as a "moral failing" of our country. Expert witnesses will testify to the trauma suffered when children were ripped from their parents' arms. Evidence will surely include the Justice Department inspector general's report finding that the department neglected to ensure it collected information necessary to reunite families and that the cruelty of the policy was deliberately calibrated by then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions to deter immigration….
Ultimately, the United States stands to pay large settlements, likely larger than what could be negotiated now. And the litigation process would further tarnish our national reputation if our country seeks to avoid responsibility for inflicting these horrors….
Under the zero-tolerance policy, more than 3,000 family separations caused lasting emotional damage to children and parents. As of February, more than 500 children, many of them under the age of 5 when they were separated, had still not been reunited with their families….
By negotiating settlements, our government can take steps toward reclaiming its moral authority to speak on human rights issues and can restore families that have been damaged by past U.S. policy. Settling these cases while the opportunity exists is both smart and the right thing to do.
Some critics of compensation payments argue none is owed because the migrants in question crossed the border illegally. In fact, Trump's "zero-tolerance" policy imposed forcible separation even on numerous families who entered the United States for the entirely legal purpose of applying for asylum. Moreover, even if the families in question had acted illegally, that would not give the government a blank check to abuse them as much as it wants. Its policies must still be subject to legal and moral constraints. The government routinely pays compensation to convicted criminals abused by prison guards, for example.
In this situation, the case for compensation is bolstered by the facts that any law-breaking by the families was minor (the rough legal equivalent of possessing a small amount of marijuana), the unjust nature of the laws in question, the severe and willfull nature of the abuses inflicted by the government, and the circumstance that many of the victims were children who had done no wrong; they obviously cannot be held responsible for the actions of adult family members.
Another possible objection is that any compensation payments will likely come at the expense of taxpayers, most of whom had no role in the family separation policy. Indeed, polls showed a large majority of the public opposed the policy, after it became known in mid-2018.
It is indeed unfortunate that taxpayers will end up on the hook. But that is true for nearly all compensation payments for state-inflicted injustices. Whether the victims are Japanese-Americans confined to concentration camps during World War II, prisoners abused by guards, or ordinary citizens abused by rogue police officers, compensation for such wrongs - when available at all - almost always comes from the public fisc.
This is far from ideally just. But it is preferable to the alternative of paying no compensation at all.
That said, it would be better if the officials responsible for the policy had to pay at least some of the compensation out of their own pockets. Trump and Jeff Sessions were the ones most responsible for the family separation policy. Thus, they have a special moral obligation to compensate the victims. In addition, such personal liability would improve government incentives going forward. If Trump, Sessions, and other high officials knew that adopting this policy would likely result in their personally having to pay compensation to the victims, they might well have hesitated to move forward. Indeed, they might have done so even if the law required them to pay compensation for only, say, 10% of the harm they caused (with the Treasury picking up the rest of the tab).
For the moment, however, personal liability for official wrongdoing is largely blocked by a variety of legal rules, including immunity doctrines. But, just as we should abolish qualified immunity for rank-and-file law enforcement officers, we should also reconsider high officials' broad immunity from personal liability for ordering violations of constitutional and human rights, while acting in their official capacity.
Indeed, other things equal, high officials such as the president and the attorney general are actually more blameworthy for the injustices they commit than are low-level official wrongdoers. The former usually have more time to carefully consider their decisions; the family separation policy, for example, was developed over a period of many months. In addition, they generally have better access to high-quality legal advice, and therefore have even less excuse for breaking the law.
Sadly, a full-blown regime of personal liability for rights violations by high officials is unlikely to be enacted anytime soon. In the meantime, the best should not be the enemy of the good. The Biden administration should reach a settlement with the victims that grants them ample compensation as soon as possible. The exact appropriate amount, of course, is likely to vary from case.
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Sure, as long as the judge who ruled that families couldn't be held together is the one that must come up with the cash to pay the settlements. Otherwise no, you can't backdoor your preferred public policies by placing outsized and unjustified fines on the USG performing its constitutional duty.
Sustained.
For reasons I covered in previous posts here and here, the child separation policy was both illegal and deeply unjust.
What is illegal, and evil, is bring your children along in an insanely risky attempt to illegally enter the US.
What'
s even more evil is setting up a system whereby people who've been provided a "child" by people smugglers, so they can get into the US in violation of US law.
You, and your ideological cohorts, facilitated and encouraged human trafficking of children by smugglers trying to get people unrelated children into the US.
Want to see "vile"? look in a mirror.
Its illegality has been confirmed by federal court rulings against it.
Thank you for playing, but the only thing "confirmed" by those federal court rulings is that there's a lot of scumbag "judges" willing to engage in lawfare against the US, in violation of their oaths of office.
"What is illegal, and evil, is bring your children along in an insanely risky attempt to illegally enter the US."
Now you're just blaming the perpetrator.
Wow I'm here before all the "i know orange man bad" types. You know they're coming.
But the right wing view is that they want the government to promote deterrence. The cruelty is the point. If they could have put refugee's severed heads on stakes at the border they would have.
Hyperbole? You can still find videos of CBP officers finding caches of water (left by sane people) in the desert and pouring them all out. There is utterly no reason to do this other than to punish someone with death, someone you haven't even seen yet but you reject by category.
The legality and consequences aside, let's take a page out of the right wingers book who spend a lot of time trying to "trigger the libs" and legislate money for the (surviving) victims. It isn't justice but it will make us a better nation.
Screw it. This is simply a transfer payment to some liberal fringe group that is unable to get legislative approval for the handout.
Make these "consent orders" subject to congressional approval and see just how quick this ends.
You are paying people to break the law, and leaving the law abiding to pay the bill. That is morally reprehensible.
No, you're compensating people for unconscionable treatment. Even when someone breaks the law, there is an outer limit to how badly they can be treated. You don't burn Charles Manson at the stake, even though in some metaphysical sense he probably would have deserved it, because we're better than he is.
Right, and if you can establish that the kids were burned at the stake, rather than separated in the way any American would be separated from their kids while in jail, you might have a point.
Think about that for a while: If you, an American, were thrown in jail, your children would not be put in jail with you, nor would they be left to wander the streets. They'd be placed with somebody for the duration.
Biden is proposing to give them a half million a piece for the same treatment an American would face in the same situation.
An immigration detention facility is not a jail, although there are some practical similarities. The reason for holding someone is different. In this case, there's no reason why families couldn't have been kept together.
Yes, actually there is: The judiciary forbade it.
Exactly.
I was speaking in terms of practicalities, not in terms of the law. As a practical matter, there is no reason the families couldn't have been held together. And that it's our law that they had to be separated is even more reason to offer compensation: This was not a few bureaucrats run amuck, this was official US government policy.
Look at you agreeing with Trump...
"President Trump had directed then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions to ask the District Court for the Central District of California, to "modify" the Flores agreement to "allow the government to detain alien families together" for longer periods, which would include the time it took for the family’s immigration proceedings and potential "criminal proceedings for unlawful entry into the United States".[4]: 2 On July 9, Judge Gee of the Federal District of California, ruled that there was no basis to amend the 1997 Flores Settlement Agreement (FSA) that "requires children to be released to licensed care programs within 20 days"
I never said Trump was wrong 100% of the time.
Fair enough. But I'll point out one thing.
When you say "This was not a few bureaucrats run amuck, this was official US government policy." This actually was a few bureaucrats run amuck. Just one bureaucrat really. Judge Gee of the Federal District of California.
Trump's Brutal Child Separation Policy
OK, so then you agree that the "Trump's Brutal Child Separation Policy" part of Somin's propaganda piece title was partisan bullshit.
Krychek,
You poor ignorant liberal. You didn't know that keeping the families together was outlawed during the Clinton administration. The open borders zealots did it on purpose as a cruel ruse to get de facto open borders.
I already said I was talking about the practicalities rather than the legalities, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Let's explain then.
Open borders zealots want free and unhindered illegal immigration. But...most people don't want that. So the zealots need to go around the system. To play moral gambits to get their way. One way is via the use of children.
A child crosses the border illegally. But they're a kid. You can't lock up a kid. That's not right. So, a decision is made where you can't lock up kids. The zealots hit goal one.
But then the family is crossing with the kid. What then? Well, if you're an open border zealot you figure the following.
1. Let them hold onto the entire family. But that wouldn't achieve your goal of open borders. So, nope.
2. Demand they either release the entire family (Open borders win!) or that the kids must be let loose according to goal one. Then you get to blame the baddies for "separating families". And you get another handle towards getting the family over.
If you get the entire family over, then you have a defacto open borders policy, so long as a kid is present. If you're caught with a kid, you can't be arrested. The kid can't be imprisoned, and can't be separated from you.
You don't have to be an "open border zealot" -- I'm not -- to say that separating families at the border is wrong, or that it is so wrong that the affected families are entitled to compensation. And since it was official US government policy, whether by statute, court order or execute order -- the US government should be responsible.
Krychek,
If you're a family unit and smuggling drugs across the border.
Should you...
1. Have your entire family imprisoned (and be in violation of the law)
2. Have just you be imprisoned, while your kids are put with responsible adults
3. You all should go free. No consequences for being caught.
Which one?
It's telling AL is trying to move the active party here from the US government to border crossers.
AL, the US government is us. That's why everyone keeps things in that framing.
Switching to demonize some illegals says a lot about what you care about.
AL, how many of those families were smuggling drugs across the border?
No Sarcastro....
Who I'm "demonizing" (or sharply criticizing), are those who would prefer not to have our laws enforced...or only "selectively" enforced.
We live in a society of laws, where everyone is treated equally under the law. If I was to illegally cross the border, or someone else was, we'd both be held up and potentially deported based on citizenship. Because that's the law, the laws we've agreed to as a Democratic nation. We have methods to change those laws, if we so choose, in a democratic fashion.
But what some people would prefer is just "selective" enforcement of the law. Some people are subject to it. Some people...aren't. And some people are "super-subject" to it, even to laws that have hardly ever been enforced against anyone.
That's not a society of laws anymore. That's not a democracy anymore. That's a society where the rich and powerful decide to do what they want, to who they want, when they want. And they use a "law" to justify their punishment on people, while ignoring the "law" they don't like.
Krychek,
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/mother-uses-13-year-old-son-smuggle-drugs-across-border
"It's telling AL is trying to move the active party here from the US government to border crossers."
Yes, it's telling that he doesn't pretend illegal immigrants lack all agency, or that they aren't aware they're breaking the law.
It's remarkably easy to avoid ending up in custody with your kids placed with a foster family: Don't illegally immigrate.
"there's no reason why families couldn't have been kept together."
Except for the pesky law, yes.
"Except for the pesky law, yes."
One out-of-control kritarch ought nor be referred to as "the law".
Exactly.
Illegally crossing the border is a crime. If you commit a crime that would put you in jail with your children in tow, your children will be separated from you. Having your children along for the ride is not a "get out of jail card".
Can you imagine if it was?
-Caught robbing a bank...nope I got kids. Can't put me in jail.
-Caught demonstrating in the Capitol? Nope...can't put me in jail. I got kids. Can't separate me.
-Caught for IRS tax evasion. Nope...can't put me in jail. I got kids.
Would the government lose the Americans' children?
Yes.
https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2018/06/19/the-other-child-tragedy-the-tens-of-thousands-of-children-the-foster-system-has-lost/
And would they and/or their parents be entitled to damages?
Generally speaking, no, the parents wouldn't get damages.
If Joe American goes off and robs a bank, he gets separated from his kids, and thrown in jail. Kids get placed in foster care somewhere. When Joe American gets out and can't find his kids, he doesn't get hundreds of thousands of dollars from the US government.
There's a reason the kids were in foster care in the first place, and not with their parents.
Well, of course not; the US government doesn't handle foster kids. States do.
"...the US government doesn't handle foster kids. States do."
In your head, did that look clever?
Many of the children being brought to the border are tragically not even related to the adults they are with. They are just pawns being used.
They're not always related. Many seems your own editorial spin.
And not being related doesn't mean they're pawns. Plenty of other explanations, like a found family or a family friend.
This last weekend there was a large smash-and-grab in a tony city in the San Francisco bay area (Walnut Creek, in case anyone cares). It was notable because it was very large (20-25 cars, 50-80 people) and also because that area just doesn't see that sort of thing much. If reports are correct they took high end handbags and nothing else.
I was discussing this with a kind-hearted friend who thought they might be doing it because of desperate financial circumstances. I suggested it could be they're just thieves, her response was an angry "You don't know that!"
I mean, they could have been on a religious mission to raise funds to build a new church somewhere. If you want to believe the best of people, you certainly can. Reality often conflicts with wishful thinking.
(For the record, I'd bet good money that some were pawns and some not.)
Yeah, facile moral analysis sure does makes things easy!
You're basically lumping people into 2 boxes: good and bad. Which is probably really easy cognitively, but doesn't make for good policymaking.
I'm not for open borders, but I do hate the work people put in to dehumanize whenever illegal immigration is brought up.
Many seems your own editorial spin.
Yeah, facile moral analysis sure does makes things easy!
Your clueless hypocrisy is showing again.
Actually, it probably does make for good policymaking. You don't break the law, the government treats you as a member of group A, and stays out of your face. No pre-crime restrictions, you're free. And that's efficient, because most people NEVER commit a serious crime in their entire life!
You do, you get demoted to group B, the people who we already have evidence aren't law abiding. Group B gets the government in its face, but that's justified on the basis of their personal history, and it's also efficient, because most crime is committed by a small fraction of the population, so once you've identified somebody who committed a crime, you've identified somebody likely to commit crimes in the future.
You should understand that the criminological evidence is that, contrary to the 'liberal' notion of criminals as just like us, but down on their luck, or who simply 'snapped', criminals are actually a small, aberrant fraction of the population. They're different from most of us.
Wow Brett, you seem to long for a terrifying dystopia. They make movies about societies like that.
Consider that many of these immigrants crossed legally, and none of them had a trial of any kind before their kids got thrown away. And even if they had, illegal immigration is less severe of a crime than, say, speeding. (Illegal immigration isn't even technically criminal, generally. That's why the right has to derogatorily refer to them as "illegals" rather than criminals.)
So you would like a country where as soon as someone gets merely accused of speeding, human rights protections evaporate, not just for them but their families too. The officer feels like you were going 70 in a 65, so he makes you hand over your young daughter and abducts her, and that's all ok since speeding put you in category B.
You are sick Brett. The Constitution prevents your fantasy world in at least three ways: jury requirements, no corruption of blood, and no cruel punishments.
And anyway, versions of your category B do exist. Once a felon always a felon. Sex offenders have to have registration papers. Terrorist watch lists. Even just having minor "priors" can mark you as especially suspect. But at least constitutional protections apply.
@Randal: I happily refer to Invaders as criminals. That the likes of you think Invasion is less serious than speeding and have interfered with treating it as the crime it is is no reason for me to go along with your fantasy.
I suppose "invaders" is an even stupider thing to call them than "criminals," so I think I see where your brain, for what it's worth, is at.
Calling criminal invaders either "criminals" or "invaders" is perfectly sensible, unlike pretending that being a criminal invader is akin to driving a bit over the speed limit.
Oh, wait... I just ran across the comment of yours I was thinking of. You say it's akin to a PARKING ticket!
You are a complete loon.
"Wow Brett, you seem to long for a terrifying dystopia."
A terrifying dystopia where, if you don't break the law, the government stays out of your face, and lets you do as you please? Yeah, I find that frightening, too. [/sarc]
"Consider that many of these immigrants crossed legally, and none of them had a trial of any kind before their kids got thrown away."
Their kids did not get thrown away, and they're in detention waiting for their trials, because every one of them is a flight risk. If you end up in the same situation, I assure you that your kids won't be in jail with you.
And, yes, some fraction of illegal immigrants enter the country, and then overstay their visas. They weren't illegal until their visas expired.
"So you would like a country where as soon as someone gets merely accused of speeding, "
Convicted of a real crime. We have to distinguish between crap like ordinary speeding, where the government deliberately crafts a law they know everybody will break in order to use fines as a source of revenue, and genuine crimes, like entering the country illegally because you know you couldn't qualify to do so legally.
Ah, now we're getting somewhere. There are good people and bad people in your fantasy dystopia, but it's not based on whether or not they broke the law. It's whether or not they broke the "real law," aka Brett's law.
Yes Brett, literally everyone in the world has this fantasy, where you and everyone you like gets preferential treatment and agrees 100% that everyone else is evil and deserves less. {Believe me, you are on a LOT of people's evil list.) Most of us are mentally mature enough to realize that this fantasy is as scary as it is laughable. See any number of movies based on the premise... The Hunger Games, Snowpiercer, Yellow Rose, Gattaca, Milk, The White Tiger, Antebellum US History Documentary...
"Yeah, facile moral analysis sure does makes things easy!"
Heh. Pot-kettle-black much?
Policy-wise, offering up excuses for thieves as first option seems a poor choice. In any case, making policy taking each individual into account is unworkable. Hard cases, bad law and all that.
As to the alleged pawns, ML did say "many" and not "all." This is not a controversial statement, many were/are pawns.
Those caches of water were left by criminals attempting to aid other criminals.
I'm glad they were destroyed.
The likelihood of death in the desert is why the real evil is the people trying to smuggle kids into the US
If the success of your invasion of the US depends on water caches that may or may not be there it is clearly unwise for us to encourage you to invade by leaving the caches in place. Duh.
Biden will pay them. His party is going to be wiped out in the midterms in any case, so why not make the illegal alien lobby happy.
Where do you propose to find enough uneducated racists, superstitious gay-bashers, economically inadequate xenophobes, stale misogynists, and bitterly disaffected clingers remaining in modern America to elect a bunch of Republicans?
You'll be able to ask that of yourself after the midterms, asshole.
I've wondered why teh parents of these children can't be help responsible for bringing or in some cases sending their children into this situation?
If a American parent did something remotely similar, like leaving a child in a car parked in the sun, the Kid Police would be all over them and probably take the kids away from the parent.
This is more analogous to the kid police physically preventing the kids from getting out of the hot car. The parents shouldn't have put the kids in that position (although for some of them it may have been their least bad option), but once they were in that position, the police shouldn't make it worse.
"This is more analogous to the kid police physically preventing the kids from getting out of the hot car."
How so? It's not like after being separated, they're staking the kids out in the desert. They're being placed with foster families or relatives if such can be found.
Because (1) there was no security reason to separate families in the first place, unlike when an adult goes to jail; (2) in some cases they couldn't be reunited afterward because the government lost track of them; and (3) the amount of time that passed between separation and reunification in those cases where reunification was possible.
Except, the adults in that family have broken the law, and would normally be...put in jail...for doing so.
(1)There was a court ruling prohibiting the kids from being detained for more than a short while.
(2) You place kids of illegal aliens with their illegal alien relatives, surprisingly, illegal alien relatives don't keep the government notified as to their whereabouts.
(3) I agree, illegal aliens SHOULD get prompt deportation hearings. Blame the members of Congress who don't want the law enforced, and found underfunding enforcement a handy way of assuring it.
To repeat the question, since you haven't answered it: How is putting the kids of invaders with foster parents "more analogous to the kid police physically preventing the kids from getting out of the hot car"?
This was policy followed by the Obama administration as well.
And we shouldn't be rewarding people for breaking our immigration laws. Stop.
Tort damages are not a "reward", they restore you to the position you would have been without the unlawful act of the tortfeasor.
Tort damages are not a "reward", they restore you to the position you would have been without the unlawful act of the tortfeasor.
You think people sneaking across the border had close to 1/2 million dollars in cash and were somehow stripped of those sums when they were detained?
No, he's just an unembarassed lying jackass.
I'm not sure the $500k or so is supposed to be cash, btw.
"First, these aren't voluntary payments."
Bullshit. What you're describing is "Sue and Settle". They're arranging to be "forced" into making the payments, because the proposed source of the money is only available to satisfy court judgements.
Where does it come from if congress doesn't appropriate it? How can the court 'appropriate' money for this?
Bureau of the Fiscal Service, Judgment Fund.
If you sue the feds and win, this is where the money comes from. Unfortunately, it also functions as a slush fund for sue and settle exercises like this.
You have no proof there is any such coordination going on, but when has that stopped you?
You've become a bit of a joke, you know that?
No, Brett - you have. You see a plot everywhere. It's a cliche in these here parts.
Will water be wet the next time you get in the shower? You have no proof!
And, to be clear, it's not even obvious in many of these cases that the adults accompanying the children WERE their parents.
But if they were the parents, they were guilty of child endangerment.
It’s illegal to enter the country illegally, even when done for "the entirely legal purpose of asylum". Legal ends don’t justify illegal means. Of course this is obvious.
Also obvious: you don’t detain minor children and adults together in the same population because it presents a danger to the minor children.
The real question is what's the scam and how will that money be funneled back to Dem or other organizations.
Who could argue with that thing that can't be argued with?
Sarcastr0
Luv to have a fan.
Luv to have a fan.
Yes, I imagine it helps to disperse the stench of your non-stop bullshit.
You, on the other hand, I’ve just blocked. There is not a more toxic poster in this website.
You, on the other hand, I’ve just blocked. There is not a more toxic poster in this website.
Only in the same sense that penicillin is toxic to syphilis.
Oh no. I've been blocked by a liar and a coward. How will I ever console myself.
With your bitter clinging and disgusting bigotry, as always.
You, too, are a joke, Asshole.
Oh, come on. That's so obviously not true as to be laughable. I mean, the carboy of malignant gall bladders known as Kirkland, for one.
That's so obviously not true as to be laughable.
Making stuff up is his whole schtick, which is why he's so defensive about having it pointed out.
Also NOVA Lawyer might show up with well akshually the term "enter" should be redefined to mean it's not illegal, so akshually they never entered illegally or some such BS.
It must be annoying to always have your legal ignorance pointed out by people who actually know something about the subject. You could avoid it by commenting less.
I'm just really confused here. What exactly is the argument that we should pay?
Federal soverign immunity applies, correct? Congress has waived federal soverign immunity ... except in the case of "policy decisions." This is because the purpose of waiving immunity is to compensate in cases where a mistake was made and people were harmed. It is not to compensate the people who suffered under a particular policy, because the whole point of a democratic society passing policies is that some people benefit and some people get harmed.
The child separation policy is certainly a policy decision, regardless of how cruel it was (my personal view is in agreement with Ilya that it was cruel.) Sovierign Immunity applies.
We compensated the Japanese victims of internment not because a court ordered us to, but because Congress decided to compensate them. As a democratic society, this is how the process is supposed to work, if Congress wants to compensate someone for a horrific policy, they can pass a law doing so.
Likewise, if the Biden Administration wants to compensate these people for suffering, they can! But there is nothing forcing them to via courts, and if there were, it would be extremely undemocratic.
The real goal here is just to encourage massively more illegal immigration. They anticipate a disastrous midterm election, so they've only got a bit over a year to flood the nation with as many potential new Democrats as possible.
The Democratic party has been all about creating irreversible facts on the ground that subsequent elections can't change, for decades now. Illegal immigration is now at a 21 year high, and if they start handing small fortunes out to people who illegally cross the border, the flood would become a tsunami.
It's already running around a quarter million a month being caught, with who knows how many slipping by undetected. But if Biden actually starts paying them to come here, who knows how bad it could get?
But bad for the country is good for the Democrats, because they anticipate a huge number of Democratic voters coming out of this down the road.
Just no.
1. Committing a crime is illegal. Even if it's done for a legitimate purpose. If you have money at the bank, holding up the teller at gunpoint to get your money is illegal.
If you want asylum...present yourself at a port of entry and claim asylum. Don't illegally cross the border.
2. If you commit a crime that would put you in jail, having kids along for the ride is not a get out of jail card. And it never should be. You should be put in jail, and if you have kids with you, they will be separated from you. Don't commit crimes with kids tagging along. Don't rob banks with kids in tow. When the cops catch you, they will put you in jail. And your kids will be separated from you.
3. Lastly, this is the worst possible thing you could do to discourage illegal immigration....Can you imagine?
"So....here's the deal. Cross the border illegally with your kids. They won't put you in jail because your kids are with you. And if they do separate you from your kids, you get a few hundred thousand US dollars. Nice deal, eh?"....
Hell, I suspect many people will suddenly claim their "kid" was separated in order to get the cash.
Illegally crossing the border isn't a crime. It's equivalent to a parking ticket - also illegal but not criminal. So if you've ever gotten a parking ticket, you've done as bad or worse than these people.
Try rephrasing your manifesto in the correct terms and it'll be clear how cruel it is.
Immigrant detention isn't jail. They aren't being detained as criminals. It's more like being detained at "international arrivals" at the airport. The fact that it can take many months to process them is, of course, ridiculous. But they're free to go at any time, if they agree to return home.
So, this is almost certainly going to sound like a "gotcha", which is not what I'm attempting, I am actually curious. Can you provide a cite and an explanation as to why that is true?
Like... are you saying that crossing the border illegally is a civil infraction? Sorry, I'm not a lawyer and may be using the wrong terminology.
Yes, that's right. From http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33351.pdf:
"Being illegally
present in the U.S. has always been a civil, not criminal, violation of the INA, and
subsequent deportation and associated administrative processes are civil
proceedings."
But it's more complicated than that... there are crimes defined for specific violations, like smuggling, including a misdemeanor for "entering at an undesignated place," although there are exceptions as well, so I'm not sure who it would apply to, such as asylum-seekers. But it seems like the immigrants themselves (as opposed to e.g. human smugglers) are rarely charged anyway... largely because ICE is authorized to detain immigrants even without a criminal charge, so why bother?
In America we usually don't call people criminals if they haven't been found guilty of a crime... and a lot of times, even if they have been convicted of a misdemeanor. (Speeding is a misdemeanor, but we usually don't think of speeders as criminals.)
Thanks for the explanation.
You'll note he switched crimes on you from
1) Illegal entry
to
2) Illegally being present in the US.
They aren't the same.
Speeding is ordinarily a bit of a special case, (Setting aside high speeds in residential areas.) as speed limits are deliberately set too low for local conditions, so that everybody will habitually exceed them. Then the speed limit is selectively enforced to yield a predictable stream of revenue from speeding tickets.
Since everybody knows the speed limits are a revenue mechanism which actually depends on the law being routinely violated, reasonable speeding isn't viewed as wrongful.
The illogic of this claim should be obvious to anyone with a functioning brain. But squelching it by making illegal presence a federal felony is desirable just to end the hoo-hah.
Being in the US illegally isn't a crime. It just isn't, no matter how illogical it may seem to you. That's why right-wing media, to the extent it tries at all to be truthful, is forced to call them "illegals" -- "criminals" would be inaccurate.
Are you really so dim that you were unable to take in what I wrote?
Well, I'll say it a different way: That we've chosen in the past to make it a civil matter was clearly a mistake of no normative import. Illegal entry or presence should be made a felony to make absolutely clear that it is a serious matter.
Oh no, I get it. Your mind is so twisted by hate that you think it's illogical to point out the *fact* that being in the country illegally is in the same category as other civil infractions, as if a fact could somehow be illogical. And that your hatred of immigrants is actually the normative standard, notwithstanding what the law actually says. It's sickeningly delusional, really.
Again, you've switched crimes from illegal entry to illegally being present.
The two aren't the same. Illegal entry is a crime, for which you can get up to 6 months in jail for the first offense, and 2 years for each offense afterwards. Not exactly a parking ticket.
Incorrect.
Illegal entry IS a crime. Under US code 1325, you can get up to 6 months of jail for the first offence, and up to 2 years in jail for each subsequent offense.
Illegal entry is not the same as being illegally present.
https://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/us-immigration/crime-enter-illegally.html
I think I explained that above. There are exceptions, and I've been told that seeking asylum is one, although that was not very reliably sourced so I'm not positive what defenses are available other than that there are some. But you're right, crossing illegally can at least sometimes be a crime. Just being undocumented, by itself, isn't.
Anyway, your analogy still doesn't hold. People don't generally have their kids taken away when they're arrested. To the extent it happens, it's when they're convicted. There are at least two ways that matters:
First, it gives you time (between arrest and conviction) to get your kids situated yourself. Bring them to their grandparents or whatever. They're not just suddenly kidnapped and disappeared.
Second, conviction in the immigration context generally means deportation. No need to separate families in that case.
So it's more like if the US said, we really really want to deter speeding. Speeding is a crime, and lots of illegal drivers are speeding because they're murderers and rapists.
So, our new zero-tolerance speeding policy is to charge anyone caught driving with speeding. After all, most people speed, so driving is probable cause. Don't worry, you'll be fine if you're not guilty. And drivers who are charged will be detained without bail until trial. That's because how ridiculous would it be to "catch and release" potential criminals! They might keep on speeding and murdering and raping, and never show up for trial. And so we've gotta take their kids away since we also underfund the traffic court system so these cases can drag on for years, even though conviction typically just results in a fine. Oh and accused illegal drivers don't get lawyers because loophole.
This might actually be an appealing policy to, say, a bicycle commuter who just hates that traffic laws are underenforced, making his life less safe and more annoying day after day. Millions of criminals, just getting away with it, while the authorities look the other way! And he doesn't even really like legal drivers, so doesn't mind too much that they get trampled in the process.
How Ilya lies:
"Trump's Brutal Child Separation Policy"
1. It's not Trump's policy, it's the law, and was done under Obama, too;
2. It's not brutal. In many cases it's to protect the children from sexual predation.
Hey, I have a low opinion of people who would join CBP too, but even I don't think they're child molesters.
Perpetrators of crimes against these migrants are often those involved with people smuggling, known as coyotaje.[8][9][10] They may also be bandits, members of criminal gangs, other migrants, or government employees in either Mexico or the U.S.[8][10][11] Sexual violence may be considered part of the "price" women must pay in order to be smuggled over the border.[6][10] Sexual violence, or threatening to sexually assault someone, may also be one part of a larger criminal plan to extort money from the migrants or their families.[6]
Rape of migrants is so common that some women and girls plan for it, taking or bringing contraception, or they may be required to take it by smugglers.[6][12][10][13] A PBS NewsHour story about sexual assault of female migrants interviewed a pharmacist in Altar in Sonora, who said that the town is one of the last stops for someone about to cross the border, and that in the pharmacy she frequently receives the same question: "What can I do in case I'm raped, and I don't want to get pregnant."[14][13]
The parts of Mexico near the U.S. border, and the state of Chihuahua and city of Juárez in particular, are some of the most dangerous places for women in general in Mexico, according to a Reuters report on the "pandemic" of violence against women in Mexico.[12] News reports have stated that in some areas near the border, rapists began hanging their victims' garments from "rape trees" as trophies,
1. It's not "the law". One kritarch in NorCal got supervision of a fake-adversarial "settlement" by Janet Reno and pulled a stupid rule prohibiting keeping accompanied miinors with their "parents" out of hee ass.
2. Enforcing the "rule" isn't subject to any discretion on the part of Federal authorities and therefor NEVER has anything to do with fear of sexual predation.
Just because a Resistance lawyer wrote an op-ed does not mean her analysis of the risk is right.
Let's have the trial(s) and see how much the judgments are actually for. Its a rounding error budget-wise either way.
Why wouldn't a first class airline ticket back home suffice as compensation?
This article is utter garbage. It's all lies.
There was no "family separation policy", that never happened.
What happened was the 2015 decision of California District Court Judge Dolly Gee in the case of Flores v. Johnson. It was Judge Gee who ruled for the first time that accompanied minors must be released from detention within 20 days, then in 2016 the 9th Circuit ruled in Flores v. Lynch that while accompanied children must be released within 20 days, their parents need not be. The children were never separated from their families, in fact they were released from custody in to the care of family already legally or illegally present in the United States. When the children were released into a household where any resident was illegal immigrant, the entire household was given immunity from prosecution by ICE.
If the judgement of the court was unjust - and remember it was Judge Gee who denied Sessions his desired option for humane, family-based detention - the correct remedy is to overturn the judgement. There can be no compensation for abiding by the lawful orders of the courts, because judges have immunized themselves from the consequences of their decisions.
I might be wrong but my understanding is that even if this is all true, there was no law requiring the parents to be held beyond 20 days, and that was the new policy Trump and Sessions came up with: keep the parents in detention even after releasing the children. They didn't have to do that, and that's what they're in trouble for. They could always have continued doing the thing they used to do and decided to start doing again when the PR hit the fan: just release the parents and children together.
Trump could always have been just as feckless as Obama and not got in trouble by attempting even a gesture towards doing doing what he promised when he ran for office?
Well, Roger that.
An illegal gesture, for which we're still paying the consequences, literally.
Not illegal in the slightest. Of course what Trump SHOULD have done is deport them all.
I see lots of righteous indignation, but nothing about where the government waived sovereign immunity. Is that covered in one of those linked articles?
What can stop Biden from doing it if he wants to?
You mean Obama's child separation policy? Obama did it first.
This is complete nonsense of course. What do you think happens to American citizens when they commit crimes?
For example, what happens if an American citizen were to storm a government security boundary, or trespass on government property . . . with children in tow, nonetheless! What happens is they get their children taken away from them, at least temporarily.
This is the usual from fanatical open borders zealots. They want to dissolve the borders. They will treat criminal aliens a hundred times better than American citizens, who they hate. An American soldier gets $100,000 for dying for his country. But an illegal alien gets $450,000 stolen from the citizens for disrespecting this country and breaking its laws!
Of course, the fact that gets routinely ignored and covered up is that the entire child separation policy was set up by the open borders gang, to create a bad choice between separation, on the one hand, or "catch and release" on the other hand. That's the heart of this entire story -- a cruel ruse to create de facto open borders.
The Trump administration would have been happy to keep these families safely together, in Mexico. Or they would have been happy to keep these families together in detainment. Either way. But that was prohibited under the rules set up by previous administrations, such as the Flores settlement. The idea of the border actually being enforced is horrifying to the open borders zealots, so they set up de facto open borders long ago and that is what we have had, outside of a brief Trump hiatus where there was an attempt to restore some semblance of national dignity.
People like Ilya Somin have no credibility whatsoever. Almost none of the people crying about family separation have any credibility as far as I have seen. Why? Because if they were actually genuine, they would oppose the Flores settlement. Meaning they would want to . . . actually make it legal to keep those families together. Imagine that! They would oppose the rules and policies that mandate family separation as a ruse to get open borders, as well as a whole host of policies that encourage caravans and dangerous behavior and dreadfully tragic human trafficking. But they don't actually care about any of that, they support those things in advocacy of open borders.
Among other things, I addressed the argument that the policy was justified because the administration was merely "enforcing the law," and the canard that Trump and then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions were merely continuing policies they inherited from the Obama Administration. Even if the latter were indeed true, it would not excuse the policy or Trump's continuation of it. It would just mean that Obama deserved a share of the blame. But, while Obama did have some awful immigration policies of his own (which I condemned at the time), this one was on Trump.
Read the OP before you launch into regurgitating your propaganda.
I did. And as I pointed out in that thread, Ilya's only "argument" is that immigration laws don't have to be enforced, and that they shouldn't be enforced.
This policy was vastly augmented from past administrations not to obey the law, but to be cruel as a deterrent.
It is clearly not commanded by any law.
What is commanded by "the law," meaning court decisions and "consent judgments," is a choice between two bad options.
You must either have a "catch and release" policy, or you must detain the adults but "release" the children within 20 days. Releasing the children while detaining the adults = family separation. Releasing the children means releasing to their parents if possible, then closest known relatives, and failing those options, then a child care facility.
Read up before you make ignorant statements. https://www.aila.org/infonet/district-court-finds-dhs-breach-flores-agreement
Read up before you make ignorant statements.
You're assuming he gives a rat's ass what the truth is...a notion he's spent years enthusiastically dispelling here.
No middle. Gotta be cruel.
OK dude.
Yeah, I don't agree with it either. But that's the "law" open borders activists set up for you.
In other words, by this inadequate response you constructively admit that your swallowing Somins ipse dixit was unadulterated, determined, and indefensible ignorance.
So... the law effectively requires a catch and release policy, is what you're saying. Great, and, that's the law that we're now in trouble for violating. Seems pretty simple.
Why are you confused? Do you think the pres and the AG have an inherent power to do an illegal policy just because the legal one is called "catch and release?"
No, the "law," which is just clever consent judgments arranged by open borders activists, requires either a catch and release policy, or categorically "releasing" children, who often have no identifiable parents or relatives who can take them, thus separating the children from the adults who accompanied them.
Capiche?
Well, and separating children in order to release them was also illegal. So there's just one legal option, catch and release. (Or figure out how to process asylum requests reasonably quickly.)
Sounds like you don't like catch and release. Fair enough. But separating children from their parents was never a legal option.
Utter nonsense. Releasing the children (necessarily into the custody of foster parents, etc) while keeping the parents in custody was perfectly legal.
Uh, do you read? Ilya has four or five links above detailing the illegality of the policy.
He and his ilk saying so has all the credibility of your declaring illegal entry and presence akin to a speeding ticket.
His ilk includes federal judges' rulings. I think that has greater precedential weight than your rants.
So M L what you say is commanded by the law isn't, it's more that you've decided what the law *really* says if you take all the bad parts out.
Which is outcome-oriented nonsense. And you should ask yourself why this is the outcome you're seeking.
Does this White, male, right-wing blog generate so many mean-spirited, bigoted, authoritarian xenophobes . . . or merely attract them?
No clue, given that the posts themselves are commonly mild, reasonable, and focus on legal issues. Same thing for Turley blog.
The posts themselves frequently are misleading, cherry-picked, partisan-lathering red meat tossed to a cultivated following (with a vile racial slur or similar signal included periodically to dispel any ambiguity).
That only reliably describes yours, Asshole.
"White..."
Trying to get yourself cancelled?
Good catch. Kookland didn't follow the hate-Whitey capitalization rules.
Ilya has no morals -- his opinions on "morality" mean nothing
Ilya has no morals.
You are a misfit right-wing bigot who will have even more American progress shoved down your throat by your betters for the rest of your life.
Everyone has problems.
Few have problems as bad as yours, Asshole. Your obsessive-compulsive posts here are really out of hand.
This take is insane. They aren't citizens. They didn't belong here. They have no rights here. We owe them nothing. Ever.
Is that a Liberty or Ave Maria law degree talking . . . something you think you remember from a discount homeschooling outline . . . or what you heard on Ingraham, Carlson, or Hannity last night?
Carry on, clingers.
He's simply right. Unlike you, he doesn't need to ask anyone else's permission to think. (Nor is he be so gormless about how to do it as you would be if you even got such permission, Asshole.)
Just outing yourself as a piece of shit. At least you did us all that favor.
For a POS, look in the mirror.
Any person that does not have all the proper documentation and approvals to enter our country must be treated as inhumanly and horribly as possible. Anything else would be un-American. Only a libtard would try to argue that they are only committed a civil infraction, applying for asylum is not even illegal at all, and all people are deserving of basic human rights. But those would be commies and True Patriots know they are the enemy we show no mercy to the enemy.
Oh, there's a lot of room, a huge lot of room, to treat them more inhumanely. They're fed, they get a roof over their heads. Civil war POW's were much worse off.
And at any time they can skate, by simply agreeing to be released back on the OTHER side of the border.
Applying for asylum is, of course, not illegal. But neither do you have to enter the US to do it, let alone enter illegally.
As a general rule if somebody applies for asylum within the US, not at a port of entry, it's because they snuck in, were caught, and had been coached to apply for asylum if that happened.
So, no, no sympathy for those who enter our country illegally, or illegally overstay their visas. They've outed themselves as the last people we should let stay here.
So let's steal their kids!
But it is only fun if we don't keep records so that they can't get their kids back ever!
It;s much better to boot both them and their spawn.
Already been explained. If you yourself went for a hike in the desert with your kids, without bringing water, and got found on the verge of death from dehydration, guess what?
You'd be jailed, and your kids would not be jailed with you. And if you got sent to prison for child endangerment, they'd end up with a foster parent.
You're complaining about something that's a routine aspect of the legal system.
Wrong, in a number of ways, but the one I'll point out is that I'd be released on bail until conviction. That would work fine here, since the equivalent of conviction in the immigration context is deportation, and we could just deport the kids along with the parents.
Nothing like seeing the real pieces of shit out in full force. They identify themselves so well.
But enough about you.
Unlike the cabal of pathetic losers who had nothing better to do with their lives than spend the past decade morally preening against the Volokh Conspiracy, Professor Somin has consistently and courageously admitted that he favors open borders.
He's horribly wrong, of course. Somin's borderless world would not only mark the end of America as a nation, it would destabilize the entire world and likely start World War III.
But at least he's not a disingenuous hack.
Michael Cohen was just released from prison this week. He also wasn't allowed to bring his kids to prison with him. Should he also sue? What about Bill Cosby? Paul Manafort? OJ Simpson? All of them were forcibly separated from their children by the government.
I have a feeling that even if the author, Ilya Somin, was arrested for a minor crime like shoplifting, he would not be allowed to bring his children with him to the jail either. So it seems like a policy that's good enough for US citizens is good enough for illegal immigrants as well.
But if we must pay them, let's do it this way. First deport them and then deduct the costs for transportation, meals, and medical care during their stay in custody. Send a check to their home address in Central America.
You don't seem to understand the concept of bail. Look it up.
I don't think that bail applies to someone in the country illegally or if it does, it shouldn't. Such a person is inherently a major flight risk.
It applies to Ilya Somin. His kids wouldn't get taken away.
Ilya Somin
The libertarian case for liberalism
Sorry, but there is no just or moral reason to compensate them. If anything, they need to compensate the US government.
I never thought I would miss the neocons. At least they saw a positive role for America in the world. Whereas Trump's "America First," as comments like this show, really means "America Only." America, the pariah of the world. If you're not an American, get fucked, you're not even human.
That's not going to go well for us in the long term. What happened to being the world's shining city on a hill?
My understanding is the government pays a $100,000 "death gratuity" for active duty who die.
Insurance policy would be another matter, paid by an insurance underwriter.
I went a'googlin and found this:
"Servicemembers' Group Life Insurance (SGLI) is a VA program that provides low cost group life insurance to all military members. You are automatically insured under SGLI for the maximum amount of $400,000 unless you choose otherwise
...
You can reduce the insurance by $50,000 increments or cancel it entirely
...
SGLI costs 6 cents per $1,000 of coverage. All SGLI participants must pay a $1 monthly charge for TSGLI, this brings the monthly premium to $25 for $400,000 worth of coverage."
I did an online quote for term life for a healthy 25 yr old man and got similar rates, so this just seems like market rate insurance, assuming normal insurance companies will cover soldiers at all.
The death gratuity is separate, and as M L describes.
Nothing. The Senate's primary function these days seems to be to make sure that nothing happens.
Very little. The Republican establishment also wants high levels of illegal immigration, to provide business with low labor costs. They just can't say so.
Democrats and their propagandists in media will rail against any and every action taken to stem the tsunami with the mist dishonest framing possible. Anything to tug the heartstrings to turn sentiment back to them.