The Volokh Conspiracy
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Who Bears the Burden of Proof in Self-Defense Cases?
The prosecution.
Self-defense is an affirmative defense, so the defendant has the burden of producing evidence: He must put on some evidence from which a jury can find self-defense. But then the burden of proof returns to the prosecution, which must disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.
It was not always thus. The English common law rule at the time of the Framing was that the defendant must prove self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence, and the Supreme Court has held (Martin v. Ohio (1987)) that placing this burden on the accused would be constitutional. But even by then, "all but two of the States, Ohio and South Carolina, ha[d] abandoned the common-law rule," and they have since changed their rule by statute. (The only exception I know of is the view of some Louisiana appellate courts in non-homicide cases (see State v. Satterfield (La. Ct. App. 2021)), which still require the defendant to prove self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence; Louisiana follows the unanimous beyond-a-reasonable-doubt rule as to self-defense in homicide cases.)
Of course this doesn't dispose of what the rule ought to be. One way of thinking about that policy question is that the nearly unanimous rule takes the view, "Better that 10 guilty killers go free than one person who killed in proper self-defense go to prison for a long time (or be executed)." The Ohio rule, which is also the historical Framing-era rule is, "It's slightly worse for one guilty killer to go free than for one person who killed in proper self-defense to go to prison for a long time (or be executed)." And of course one can consider variations of these rules as one shifts the burden of proof, or sets a quantum of proof at some other place, such as clear and convincing evidence. But the current law is pretty clear.
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Why was the common law changed? It's the United States, so I assume the answer is "racism", because that's the explanation for most unusual things in the United States.
Maybe you might get a sense of the debate by looking at the opinions in Martin. The majority opinion was in favor of allowing the states to keep the common-law rule, and the dissenting opinion would have constitutionalized the changed rule. Might the dissenting opinion offer some arguments for the change? Let me know what you find.
While he certainly asked the question in a way that seems remarkably unlikely to lead to a productive discussion, I took martinned to be wondering about the historical genesis of the change, not whether or not it was philosophically justified. I don't see any discussion on that point in the Martin dissent, and not much the majority beyond noting that the U.S. follows the common law rule when the fourteenth amendment was ratified and continued to do so in some places "well into" the 20th century.
I took martinned to be wondering about the historical genesis of the change
Indeed, and even then less the stated (philosophical) reason than the true reason. Many of the other examples I had in mind, like gun possession, have always come with many arguments of high principle, when the more plausible explanation of why the state of affairs came to be and/or persists is more along the lines of "white people are afraid of black people". No sooner does a black man get elected president or all the white people run to their local gun store.
(See also: "Why doesn't the US have a welfare state worth the name?" Stated reason: "Hurrah for rugged individualism!" True reason: "Because we don't want to give money to 'those people'." Etc.)
You mean as opposed to, say, the UK, which has a 'welfare state (presumably) worth the name', not because of a need to help the poor, but because 'private charity was too generous'. There are plenty of people on the record, including famous economists like Jevons, arguing that private charity was too good, and was making the poor disinclined to work.
You, however, have managed to erect two strawmen to knock down.
There are plenty of people on the record, including famous economists like Jevons, arguing that private charity was too good, and was making the poor disinclined to work.
Good thing we don't have that problem in the U.S.
Let me help you with that: "No sooner does an anti second amendment zealot get elected president [than] all the [...] people run to their local gun store[s]."
I don't think the Minutemen, Rogers Rangers or the Green Mountain Boys, all of whom were armed to the teeth, were afraid of black people. More likely they were worried about Indians, French, bears and eventually Hessians.
Firearms are much less lethal than often supposed - https://heyjackass.com/ records 721/4121 shot and killed in Chicago as of 11/20/2021, less than 1 in 5. So, there will be surviving shot witnesses. And videos - stationary cameras and cellphones abound. Testimony and videos create a complicated milieu that can be interpreted many ways. Once self-defense is enabled, it becomes theater, with the best actors winning their Oscars.
I mean, Bill Clinton WAS the first Black president.
It should be noted that guns sales didn't significantly increase under Obama any more than they had after Waco under Clinton and the then the threat of a Gore presidency until the utter farce of Fast and the Furious became public knowledge. At which point gun owners said fuck you and started buying guns in job lots.
" At which point gun owners said fuck you and started buying guns in job lots. "
The important point is that gun nuts chose the wrong side of the culture war -- the one with the bigots and the obsolete clingers -- and will pay dearly for that mistake as the victors continue to shape American progress against the efforts and preferences of the conservative losers.
If gun nuts want to scream profanities, aim middle fingers, wave Confederate and Gadsden flags, and the like at their betters . . . it's a free country. But a free country with rules, and the gun nuts will continue to comply with the laws established by America's better elements.
(Of course, being nicer might incline the modern American mainstream to be more gracious in victory toward the culture war's casualties.)
OK, Boomer. You are full of shit, of course. At best, your victories are at the 1% margins. I have never seen a dude go into the Girl's Room at Target. His ass would be kicked, and he would need an ambulance, not the police. Even in extreme Democrat enclaves like downtown Philly, I have never encountered anyone woke. I have encountered people trying to get through their day, and to achieve their work duties.
Your victories are marginal, irrelevant to the real world, and probably non-existent. They are prominent only in the law. All PC is case, and the lawyer profession must be destroyed to save this country.
Which, by the way, is a liberal position. Conservatism puts high value on established tradition as hard-wrought wisdom. Things should only be changed slowly and after much debate.
Liberalism wants large breaks with the past to save society from itself.
Not since Trump and the new war on norms.
Norms? /Jim Mora Voice
The war on normal preceded Trump coming down the escalator.
People bought guns during the Obama presidency because they thought he was a gun banner, so it was now or never. And they thought he was a gun banner because, in 1996, he filled out a questionnaire hoping to get the endorsement of a progressive group, the IVI-IPO of Illinois. Obama answered "yes" to the question of whether he favored state legislation to “ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns.”
re: the assertion that the true reason for (1) recognizing the right to keep & bear arms and (2) recognizing self-defense as an affirmative defense is "white people are afraid of black people"
If you care about human dignity, you will not deprive people of the ability to defend themselves.
You say that I'm really saying this because I hate blacks.
I say that you're really saying what you're saying because you, either consciously or not, hate people.
It's true that the Martin dissent doesn't say much about the history, but it certainly does offer some of the key policy arguments. Of course, it's possible that it was all racists who decided to protect self-defense defendants more, and then their fellow notorious racists Justices Powell, Brennan, Marshall, and Blackmun said, "Yes! That should be the constitutional rule!' But maybe not.
I agree that there seems to be little basis to attribute either the original change or it's perpetuation to racism, and that
I agree that there seems to be little basis to attribute either the original change or it's perpetuation to racism, and that charge has, rather predictably, derailed the conversation.
But I do think the historical question is an interesting one. I did find an article, Two Kinds of Legal Rules: A Comparative Study of Burden-of-Persuasion Practices in Criminal Cases, 77 Yale L.J. 880 (1968), available at https://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5909&context=ylj, which points to cases in both Germany and small western states in the US as the origin of the change.
Germany? It's racists all the way down!
And don't get me started on the Dutch. The Boers in South Africa weren't indigenous, and the Dutch Slave trade was a significant part of the total Atlantic slave trade.
"There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch." - Nigel Powers
Hardly anyone currently in South Africa is indigenous.
Depends what you mean by indigenous. My understanding is that the Boers and the Bantu migrated into what is now South Africa at the same time from different directions, each finding an empty land before them, until they met and clashed.
Not empty. There WAS an indiginous population: The Hottentot (Khoekhoe).
The point is anyway that, contrary to the implication of the op, the bantu were no more indiginous than the Boer. And the Boer were not the source of slaves -- the Dutch component of the slave trade was supplied, at least primarily, by black tribes, not the white one.
The client of the scumbag lawyer is the criminal. Victims may rot. The sole factor common to all jurisdictions with low crime is public self help. That is because the garbage lawyer profession is worthless. The victim defending himself will always be harassed with arrests, trials, and prison, to deter self help. Low crime causes lawyer unemployment, thus the reversal of Mandatory Sentencing Guidelines. Always arrest the crime victim, lawyer scumbag.
Result? 9/11. The lawyer feminized American males on those planes waited for the authorities to act, even after the terrorists slit the throat of a flight attendant. This scumbag lawyer effect took 3000 lives and $7 trillion from our economy.
The lawyer, Volokh, continues to indoctrinate hundreds of intelligent, ethical young people into this toxic occupation.
Its hierarchy needs to be decapitated. Arrest the 25000 traitors, including academics, try them an hour. The sole evidence would be their legal utterances. Execute them in the court basement to save this country.
You could have at least pointed him to a law review article showing the history of the premise that it's better for up to a thousand guilty men to go free than one innocent suffer. I know you're aware of it:
https://papers.ssrn.com › sol3 › papers
N Guilty Men by Alexander Volokh - SSRN
Martinned:
The common law wasn't changed, it was replaced by appropriate statutes. "Assuming" it was "racism" is just the kind of baseless stupidity I'd assume you would emit.
The law review article I linked to suggests that the change in the US did indeed come from court decisions, although of course the defense and applicable burdens are often (but by no means always) now codified in statute.
If the kritarchs did it then it was illegitimate for them to do so, but EV wrote: "by then, 'all but two of the States, Ohio and South Carolina, ha[d] abandoned the common-law rule,' and they have since changed their rule by statute."
The last clause clearly only applies to Ohio and South Carolina; it doesn't tell us anything about how the change came about in the vast majority of states.
Gandydancer doesn't understand what the common law is: film at 11.
You're such a dumbass, David NeePee. The common law on things such as the burden of proof for self-defense is not supposed to be pulled out immaculately from the collective asses of each new cohort or kritarchs
Isn't an "affirmative defense" usually used for one where the defendant has the burden? See, e.g., Alaska Stat. § 11.81.900(b)(2):
N.Y. Penal Law § 25.00:
Or. Rev. Stat. § 165.055(2):
Likewise, Black's says that "The defendant bears the burden of proving an affirmative defense"—though it also gives self-defense as an example of an affirmative defense.
EV:
As I understand what he is saying, "affirmative defense" is no longer only used for when the defendant has a burden of preponderant proof, but also covers situations where an offer of proof (of self-defense (etc?)) triggers burden-shifting to the prosecution, the laws you cite notwithsanding.
I agree that that's how Prof. Volokh is defining "affirmative defense". My point is that this appears to be a distinctly nonstandard usage, though I would welcome correction if I'm in error.
And my point is that is that if he's right about the current situation then there is a defense that once raised doesn't require the defendant to provide a preponderance of the evidence but instead requires the prosecution to prove it false to the usual standard. He suggests that such is still called an "affirmative defense", not because HE "defines" it that way, but because that is what it is commonly called.
An "affirmative defense" is one in which the defendant generally agrees with the prosecution's factual story and proof of the elements of the offense but introduces additions facts or suggests a different legal significance for the facts. "Yes, I did it, but . . . ."
This contrasts with a "negative defense" in which the defendant disagrees with and attempts to cast doubt upon the prosecution's proof of the elements of the offense. "No, I didn't do it . . . ."
Almost by definition, the defendant has no burden of proof for a negative defense. The defendant does not prove he was not at the crime scene; rather he shows the prosecution failed to prove he was there.
On the merits, I generally support a robust substantive law permitting the use of force (including deadly force) in self-defense. But if you do decide to avail yourself of those laws, I do think it's reasonable to expect you to be prepared to stand up in court and explain that your actions were probably justified.
I think of it like the duty to avoid a fatal car crash. Even with right of way you do have to make an effort. And if you try your best and fail, and can prove absence of fault, where I live you still have to deal with various law-related hassles including but not limited to the statutory presumption that your license should be revoked. (See Massachusetts General Laws chapter 90 section 29.)
That is because you support lawyer rent seeking and seek to deter victims. Everyone is sick of the massive criminality the toxic lawyer profession allows. A victims' movement should begin by just kicking the asses of all pro-criminal scumbag lawyers.
The problem here, for part of the chain of the self defense 'you must not have acted in any way that would invalidate your claim of self-defense, such as attempting to bait someone into an encounter with the purpose of using force against them.'
It is hard to prove a negative. Rather the prosecution should have the burden to show the you DID do something. From a evidence / responsibility that seems more rational. Especially when a binger can always infer you did do something (as he tried with the video imaging), and how does preponderance work then?
Also, making self defense affirmative does compel the defendant to speak, no? For all the 'reasonably believes ...' like the target must have ability, opportunity and immediate intent to inflict grievous harm.
I mean, in the KR case, the prosecution was quite helpful (GG he didn't shoot until I pointed my hand gun at him', videographer re: Rosenbaum(sp?). etc.)
I don't agree with this. Under my system, it would be the defendant's burden to provide enough evidence about what happened to show that they probably satisfied each of the elements of self defense, and I don't think that the fact that some of the elements can be phrased as negative propositions makes that some kind of Herculean task. Compare a necessity defense, which usually is an affirmative defense: one of the elements that the defense has to prove is that there was no adequate alternative to violating the law.
I don't follow. In my system, the jury would listen to the prosecutor's arguments and then decide whether or not they thought each of the elements of self defense was probably present. As with the current arrangement, the jury would be under no obligation to give any weight to those arguments if they didn't find them justified in the evidence.
Well, the defense could certainly rely on other evidence, and could potentially meet its burden by asking the jury to draw inferences about the relevant mental state from other evidence. But yes, as a practical matter I imagine most defendants would have trouble meeting their burden without testifying. As I said, I'm comfortable with an expectation that a person who chooses to use force against another (particularly deadly force) should be prepared to offer an explanation as to how it was justified.
"As I said, I'm comfortable with an expectation that a person who chooses to use force against another (particularly deadly force) should be prepared to offer an explanation as to how it was justified."
And I am happy to have the state with the burden of proof that it was unjustifed.
The question isn't explanation, but proof.
The discussion is not complete without mentioning that many such cases (most?) never get to trial. Rather, the prosecutors decide not to press charges. That's especially true when the shooter is a police officer. But there are other instances, such as home invasions, where self defense does not result in any criminal charges.
I mention this because the entire situation involving Kyle Rittenhouse must include the shooting of Jacob Blake. If I had been a juror in the Rittenhouse case, I would have considered the injustice of not charging the policeman while charging Rittenhouse. Both of those decisions may well have been political. If Rittenhouse had been convicted, I would think of him as a political prisoner.
Justice is supposed to be apolitical, but it's obvious that it's not.
Well, thank goodness that your weren't on that jury to make a sacrifice of an innocent man to appease your anger of something else other people did.
Maybe you could also go punch some Germans because the Spanish were bastards in the colonial Americas. It'd make just as much sense as your vindictive statement here - even without critiquing your misstatements about the Blake case.
I hope you are as not as stupid as you sound.
Whatever are you saying? Had the policeman been charged would that have made it ok to charge Rittenhouse?
The force must still be seen as “reasonable”…so with the Trayvon Martin tragedy the prosecution screwed up the case by bringing murder charges but Zimmerman’s defense still addressed the reasonableness of his force by doing two things—the defense made him out to be a huge pussy AND they got as many women on the jury as possible that would see going straight for a gun instead of fighting back as reasonable.
No. Not what happened. Martin attacked Zimmerman from behind, sucker punched him, knocked him to the ground, beat his head into the concrete walk, and then tried to strangle him. None of that was legally privileged. He was the the first to escalate to the use of deadly force, and that escalation was not legally privileged. Which self defense factor did the state disprove beyond a reasonable doubt?
Zimmerman lied to Hannity and isn’t credible—but even he admitted that he and Trayvon exchanged words right before the physical altercation started. We don’t know which party threw the first punch but we know Zimmerman and Trayvon were both interested in fighting other people. And Trayvon wasn’t using “deadly force” which is why the defense needed women on the jury and they went over the top in trying to make Zimmerman appear to be a huge pussy. If you think Trayvon was using “deadly force” then you are a huge pussy like Zimmerman…you are a Zimmergirl!!
Martin was using deadly force. He had beaten Zimmerman’s head into the concrete walk. That could easily have led to a concussion, or worse. That counts because deadly force is force that can lead to death or great bodily injury, and a skull fracture or concussion counts for the latter, even if the former doesn’t occur. And then, when Zimmerman yelled out, Martin tried to strangle him. That too is considered deadly force. People die from it.
Note that it isn’t deadly force, per se, that is important here, but that Zimmerman was in reasonable fear that he faced imminent death or great bodily injury at the hands of Zimmerman. The jury obviously believed that Zimmerman was in such fear, and that his fear was reasonable, because they acquitted him.
There was actually no evidence at trial that Zimmerman ever tried to fight with Martin, or that he swung first. None. The evidence at trial was that Martin attacked him from behind, sucker punched him, then straddled him MMA style, beating his head into the concrete, then trying to strangle him. I don’t know where you got your evidence, but it surely wasn’t from the actual trial. Also, the words between the two were 5-10 minutes earlier, and were confrontational only on the part of Martin, angry that he was being tailed by the Neighborhood Watch member. No evidence of any words between them later.
Whoops: “Note that it isn’t deadly force, per se, that is important here, but that Zimmerman was in reasonable fear that he faced imminent death or great bodily injury at the hands of MARTIN”.
Dude, Cremington is a crank. Ask him about gays in men's bathrooms, or who was really behind the ACA.
Are you going to rise to the occasion every time he brings up Zimmerman? Because he is old faithful in that regard; I'd advise detuning your 'someone is wrong on the Internet' meter this one time.
I have been posting her off and on for over 10 years and I can’t think of a time I have replied to one of your comments or even read one of your comments before this comment—you add nothing to this community.
Crem is simply mute worthy. I read one too many of his inane fantasies this past week involving Trayvon Martin and forcible sodomy and flipped the switch.
Tucker Carson fantasizes about assrape on national television.
Trayvon wasn’t using deadly force it’s just apparently Zimmerman was such a huge pussy that he couldn’t push him off even after taking MMA classes shortly before this altercation. In Florida juries have 6 people and so one juror that was very outspoken talked 3 other female jurors out the manslaughter charges because the prosecutor confused them by bringing a murder case.
Once again, Zimmerman lied in a national television interview and he isn’t credible. Zimmerman never spoke to Trayvon until right before the physical altercation—that means you just assumed Zimmerman was behaving responsibly by announcing he is neighborhood watch and asking what the teen is up to but Zimmerman inexplicably never did that and glared at the teen and made threatening movements towards him. You now agree with me and the Sanford PD that Zimmerman’s behavior was “bizarre”. Zimmerman instigated the altercation with bizarre behavior and then used unreasonable deadly force—that’s a solid manslaughter case but the unethical prosecutor overcharged.
There were no words between Martin and Zimmerman at any tiime before Martin confronted Zimmerman at the intersection of the two paths. So, no, Crummyton is right that Martin did not attack Zimmerman from behind.
Crummyton's argument that Zimmerman should just have accepted a beat-down is remniscent of the prosecutor's "argument" that Rittenhouse should just have accepted a beat-down from the mob. Insane.
Also, he's a liar: "...we know Zimmerman and Trayvon were both interested in fighting other people." There's no instance of GZ fighting anyone, that I know of. TM's "fight club" is another matter.
Zimmerman was taking MMA classes…why do people take MMA classes?? Zimmerman knew the cops were on the way and he knew the neighbors were nearby and he knew he had a concealed gun and he obviously had his dominant hand free and instead of doing any number of things he went straight for his gun to kill someone he knew was a teen AND after he had instigated the entire altercation. The cops showed up less than a minute after the trigger was pulled…less than a minute!!
If I didn’t know this was mindless tribalism at work I would think you people were worse than Nazis…but it’s obvious you people are just invested in a narrative that was the result of Sharpton and NBC getting involved on behalf of Trayvon’s family and then Republicans inexplicably took Zimmerman’s side. Zimmerman lied to Hannity’s face and Hannity still defends him!?!
Self defense? Again, there is no known instance of GZ "fighting people".
Apparently not, or the back of GZ's head wouldn't have gotten cracked open.
Link?
For one to believe his head was about to get “cracked open” one would have to be just as big a pussy as Zimmerman…that makes you a Zimmergirl! Congratulations—you are a huge pussy!!
Zimmerman lied to Hannity about his wife’s whereabouts on the night of the incident. So we only learned after the trial that his wife had left him the night before the incident after they got into a marital spat. So the lead detective correctly surmised that Zimmerman wanted to be a hero but his actual motive that led to his bizarre behavior was to be a hero to win back his wife who had literally just left him.
"correctly surmised" LOL!
I didn't sat GZ's "head was about to get 'cracked open'", I said it was cracked open, as in his scalp was split open and bleeding. He said the thought he was going to lose consciousness, which doesn't sound like an unreasonable or "girlish" fear to me. What it "sounds like" to an armchair he-man like you I couldn't care less.
Lol, no. He didn’t need stitches and didn’t even go to the hospital—an EMT fixed his boo boos with band-aids at the scene. I’m not a he-man and it doesn’t matter because I would never instigate an altercation which would lead to a fight because I’m not an idiot like Zimmerman and McMichael.
No, you're just an idiot like so many others.
And a blowhard ignoramus, GZ's head was sewed up by a doctor the next day.
The fact you believe that says you don’t believe Zimmerman’s deadly force was reasonable under the circumstances. And the fact Hayden believes Zimmerman addressed Trayvon to inform him he was neighborhood watch and just wanted to know what he was up to around the time of the 911 call shows Hayden agrees with the Sanford PD’s characterization of Zimmerman’s behavior as “bizarre” leading up to the physical altercation.
You're starting to drool up utter nonsense. Nothing I said implied that shooting Martin was unreasonable. As to what Haden thinks I'll let him speak for himself. I've already said that he has certain facts wrong. I've anyway never seen the Sanford PD characterize GZ's behavior as "bizarre" (link?) and if they actually said that (which I doubt) I would unhesitatingly disagree.
Read Serino’s final report, ie, capias request in which manslaughter charges are recommended. Keep in mind that Zimmerman’s wife left him the night before due to a marital spat but the Sanford PD and prosecutors never discovered that information because Shellie Zimmerman probably thought she struck gold when the GoFundMe $$$$ started coming in…remember she was busted for lying to investigators.
More random silliness. It was, btw, GZ who had his bail revoked because he didn't correct his wife's denial that they had funds in the bank. What's your point?
Zimmerman threw no punches. The coroner's report stated the only bruises on Trayvon Martin's body were on his knuckles.
No, Zimmerman didn’t land any punches and very quickly used his dominant free hand to grab his gun. Remember, Zimmerman instigated the altercation with bizarre behavior AND he was taking MMA classes AND Zimmerman lied in his one national TV interview and so he isn’t credible.
Your big "lie" is that GZ didn't open up about his rocky relationship with his wife on national TV? Maybe you think Hannity put him under oath?
LOL!
There's no indication that GZ's MMA skills extended beyond the MMA equivalent of a pink belt. It's Martin who was "refereeing" High School cock fights. And vandalizing and burglarizing. That GZ wanted to keep the suspiciously-behaving TM in sight until the police arrived was neither "bizarre" nor did it instigate anything. Martin attacked Zimmerman, full stop.
No, he lied about his wife’s whereabouts on the night of the incident because he wanted the motive for his bizarre behavior to be seen as protecting his wife at their home from a scary Black thug.
GZ never suggested any such thing. Just stop making shit up.
Have I not had enough coffee (this late in the day?) or is dementia setting in or is my reading comprehension declining in old age or is this a typo? (I am seriously hoping for the latter!).
Whoops, thanks, fixing.
Missing from the OP? Any mention of proportionality of force. Whatever your views on justified self-defense, two issues to complicated the picture ought to be taken into account.
First, is a person with a gun being confronted by a person with no weapon at all? Perhaps in such cases the burden of proving self-defense should be entirely on the shooter.
Second, is the only gun in sight the one the shooter brought to the scene. The argument, "I feared for my life because he might have taken my gun," should be subjected to an elevated standard of proof, lest it turn into an all-purpose license to kill.
More generally, gun prevalence and gun availability affect the likelihood of gun violence. Gun carriers say they do it to make themselves safer, and for the benefit of society. People without guns may not see it that way, and think instead that people who have guns ought to bear a heightened responsibility for any contribution their gun makes to deadly violence. On what principle should the law decide to heed the pro-gun view over the other, or vice versa?
If somebody trying to take your gun and kill you, disqualifies self-defense since you had a gun in the first place, then self-defense with a gun can never be justified?
With respect to Rittenhouse the DA should have considered the fact that Rosenbaum was suicidal when bringing charges because it was essentially suicide by cop. So I think people that don’t know that Rosenbaum was suicidal have a hard time understanding why a person would charge a person with a gun—suicidal people stand in front of freight trains and jump off the Golden Gate Bridge because they want to die.
Was Ahmaud Arbery suicidal, then?
The redneKKKs were about to kidnap him to assrape him…how convenient that you think young Blacks should submit to kidnapping and whatever comes after that.
Sure. That's why Greg McMichael was on the phone to the police trying to get them to come and arrest Arbery when Arbery attacked his son. Makes perfect sense.
So Arbery had a police radio on him?? How would Arbery or Trayvon know who the creepy adults threatening them were on the phone with?? Once again, it’s convenient for you to believe Black teens should submit to kidnapping and whatever comes next…while Rittenhouse has the right to self defense when a creepy adult threatens him.
Nobody threatened or attempted to kidnap Arbery. The McMichaels drove up beside Arbery and Greg McMichael demanded he stop and talk to them. Arbery instead bolted in a different direction. The McMichaels passed him and stopped in the road a hundred or so yards ahead of Arbery. Travis McM got out and stood by the driver's door with his shotgun not pointed at Arbery, while Greg McM called the police. But Arbery ran directly at TMcM and when he got close enough TMcM, alarmed, pointed his shotgun at Arbery who proceeded to justify the alarm by running around the truck and attacking TMcM from a different direction, resulting in his death. Now, Arbery, his mind poisoned by the likes of you, may indeed have been afraid that "[t]he redneKKKs were about to kidnap him to assrape him", but acting on unreasonable fear like that doesn't deprive anyone of the right to self-defense.
I’ve seen the video—the redneKKKs’ behavior was very threatening and it’s pretty obvious from the video they were attempting to kidnap Arbery—false imprisonment is both a tort and a crime and doesn’t require actual physical force…but showing a gun generally means you are willing to use it. So it’s not like the St Louis couple that had every right to protect their home with a show of force—the redneKKKs had no right to impede Arbery’s run with a show of force.
Given that a pistol had been stolen from Travis McMichael's truck in the course of the crime spree and that TM had experienced AA apparently reaching for a gun when he encountered AA on the Larry English property on Feb 11 it was only sensible for the McMichaels to arm themselves when they attempted to persuade AA to stick around to be interviewed by the police. And because he had immediate knowledge of an Arbery crime Travis (and arguably, Greg, because of the videos) DID have the right to arrest Arbery by the plain language of the law, though it didn't reach that point. As to "showing" guns, Travis' shotgun remained pointed in the air until Arbery's intent to attack became apparent and Greg's pistol remained holstered until after it took place. You might not like open carry, but the fact that you are not entitled to view it as a threat is perfectly clear in GA law.
Uh no, if you believe a criminal is armed then you don’t mess with them and let the people that get paid to deal with criminals handle it. Everyone in Georgia disagrees with you because the Republican GA legislature quickly repealed the CA law.
I believe we have a right open carry…except as Rittenhouse shows you can attract suicidal criminal vagrants in this day and age putting yourself in danger by open carrying. But you can’t use a gun to falsely imprison someone in America…even a young Black man.
You just keep lying, making stuff up and spouting irrelevancies. No one ever suggested the McMichaels KNEW Arbery was armed, they took guns because he MIGHT be armed and they anyway might need to arrest him. You appear to be asserting thart they pursued him only because they were certain that he was unarmed, but that's a claim pulled directly from your butt.
Nor did they impede Arbery's progress. If he hadn't chosen to attack TM he could have just kept running. But since they had the right to arrest him they certainly were entitled to impede his progress.
As I've already observed the idea that they intended to "kidnap" Arbery is not only non-obvious, it is completely disproven by the fact that GM was on the phone summoning the cops when Arbery attacked. Are you mental?
As to GA changing its CA law... what was your supposed point? "Everyone in Georgia disagrees with m,e" about what?
Maverick, on what principle are you entitled to conclude someone in a violent situation who is trying to take your gun intends to use it to kill you? They could also intend to disarm you, to end your violence.
The jury can consider whether said conclusion was reasonable.
Exactly, Nieporent. But can the jury do that under current standards which make the subjective state of the shooter the test?
If I am on the jury, I will be asking why anyone who is unarmed is attacking someone who is pointing a gun at him. What usually happens when someone with a gun points it at an unarmed person? The unarmed person goes utterly within the power of the gun wielder. Calms down, takes orders, does what the gun guy demands. Isn't that the usual case, and overwhelmingly the most likely case?
So what reasonably accounts for such a strikingly risky decision by an unarmed person to do otherwise? Seems like you would be entitled to assume that the person attacking the gun had a reasonable fear that he was about to be shot, and was, however desperately, trying to deflect the gun, or wrest it away to save his own life.
So on what reasonable principle is an unarmed person who grabs for a gun automatically branded an assailant? In the absence of other highly persuasive evidence, why doesn't the unarmed person enjoy at least the identical presumption of self-defense the shooter gets, if not a more favorable presumption?
Why doesn't the shooter face the question whether armed advantage makes unreasonable his assertion that he was in fear for his life? Isn't that what the gun carrier intends arming himself to do? Isn't that what it almost always does do?
The guy with the gun carries it on the presumption that it will make him safe. But after he shoots someone he is entitled instead to a paradoxical presumption that his own gun put him in mortal danger? That seems to me to grant gun wielding far too great an advantage. How under that omnivorous rule is it possible to keep armed self-defense accountable?
It makes far more sense—it is more reasonable—to use instead a rebuttable presumption that armed self-defense works, without any presumptive need to shoot unarmed targets. If a shooter claims otherwise, put him on his mettle to prove it.
I also want to note in passing that after these kinds of incidents the pro-gun advocates begin to chorus in unison conclusory assertions about the facts—always favoring the shooter. We see that again and again. As in the Zimmerman case, those are too often demonstrably speculative, but shared among gun wielders as factual beyond doubt. That has troubling implications for what may happen to justice on any jury which includes people who habitually carry guns.
"So what reasonably accounts for such a strikingly risky decision by an unarmed person to do otherwise?"
Your error here seems to be assuming that criminal attackers are reasonable people making rational decisions. They aren't.
Crooks in general aren't rational actors. If you do the math, robbing banks is a lower than minimum wage career. By your logic, we can then safely conclude that people don't rob banks.
Getting back to whether anyone is crazy enough to try and take a gun from an armed person, when crooks fatally shoot police officers, roughly 15% of the time the weapon used is the officer's own gun. Think how crazy you have to be to try and take a gun from someone you know has had retention training, is wearing body armor, may well have a backup gun, and where even if you succeed you will get an extreme sentence.
Absaroka, get rid of your circularity and try again, without the presumption of, "crooks." And, please, no assumed irrationality for the guy who gets shot. For a forthright answer, no presumptions about either rationality or moral justification for the the shooter, either.
It is surprising how deeply-held the pro-gun bias shows itself to be. Ask gun proponents for a principled defense of gun laws as they are, and everything comes back coded as gun-wielders good, shooting victims bad. Except for school shootings, where that approach is so manifestly absurd that only true nut cases try it. So with school shootings it's mostly about evasions and dismissals—to a statistical first approximation, school shootings never happen, so we can ignore them.
Lathrop, before: "Seems like you would be entitled to assume that the person attacking the gun had a reasonable fear that he was about to be shot..."
Lathrop, now: "...please, no assumed irrationality for the guy who gets shot."
So, it's ok to assume rationality in someone like, say, Ahmaud Arbery, but not ok to notice the actual irrationality of what he did that got him killed.
Stephen, yes. And here, as with Zimmerman, the winner of the war gets to write the history. We'll never know the motives/fears of the other parties because they are all conveniently dead. It renders self-defense claims as almost unassailable.
And that’s why I thought Rittenhouse could get convicted of the lesser charges because the 3rd guy was able to testify and the guy the bullet hit near was able to testify…but luckily for Rittenhouse the guy he shot was very dumb which is why he ran towards someone with a gun that just killed two other people.
Grosskreutz wasn't running when he was shot.
Who is this unknown person, "the guy the bullet hit near"?
Self defense is a complete defense. There was no "lesser charge" that Rittenhouse was guilty of.
Sebastian, agreed. As dumb as the third 'victim' was it is nothing compared to the prosecutor. That guy couldn't cross-examine a ham sandwich
"self-defense claims [are] almost unassailable."
Tell that to Travis McMichael. (Though in fact Travis McMichael is not guilty, so there's that.)
Very few people are defending McMichael which is a good sign. So if the truth dick-slaps Republicans up side the face then they will see things the right way…unfortunately Democrats aren’t behaving the same way most likely because a Black teen that did exactly what Rittenhouse did wouldn’t be given the benefit of the doubt by our society…but that’s not Rittenhouse’s problem.
Yeah, the McMichaels will most likely be acquitted as well. The new paradigm (Zimmerman-Rittenhouse-McMichael defense): I approach unarmed people with a gun, they freak out, I get scared, I kill them. End of case.
"they freak out, I get scared"
That comma is doing a lot of work.
Just say what you mean: that McMichael is white.
I did say what I meant, and that wasn't what I said.
One note before I get into all of this: It's not just fear of 'life/mortal danger'; it's fear of grave bodily harm/death. So if he thinks he would be severely unjured the requirement is met.
"What usually happens when someone with a gun points it at an unarmed person? The unarmed person goes utterly within the power of the gun wielder. Calms down, takes orders, does what the gun guy demands. Isn't that the usual case, and overwhelmingly the most likely case?"
Look at the news and reports of police activity, let alone gang activity. Plenty of situations in which an invididual who is unarmed does not follow your logic.
"Seems like you would be entitled to assume that the person attacking the gun had a reasonable fear that he was about to be shot, and was, however desperately, trying to deflect the gun, or wrest it away to save his own life." Yes, that might be reasonable. But what is required in a hypothetical exercise here is which party engaged the other. You're coming at this with the assumption that the armed person started the altercation in the first place. To get a more clear answer the situation must go backward some to the beginning of the encouter to determine the answer to what is reasonable here. Withtout it, there's nothing to argue because there's no intent given from either side. Just a situation where one person is pointing a gun at another. Without pretext, no reasonable conclusion can be made at all.
"So on what reasonable principle is an unarmed person who grabs for a gun automatically branded an assailant?"
If someone tries to take something from you, that person is an assailant. Again without pretext in this case the person who does not own the item, nor is in posession of it tries to take it becomes the assailant. The fact that it's a gun is semantics and a pretext for your arument about 'principles'.
"In the absence of other highly persuasive evidence, why doesn't the unarmed person enjoy at least the identical presumption of self-defense the shooter gets, if not a more favorable presumption?" Now you're requiring "highly persuasive evidence" which is subjective. What does one consider highly persuasive?
Without any evidence otherwise, the unarmed person would get the same presumption of self defense as the armed person. The reason is that we again have NO pretext as to what actually happened. The only real way to answer is once again to go back in the sequence of events regarding who engaged whom first and go from there to gain the information necessary to determine which one is defending and which is the assailant.
"Why doesn't the shooter face the question whether armed advantage makes unreasonable his assertion that he was in fear for his life? Isn't that what the gun carrier intends arming himself to do? Isn't that what it almost always does do?"
Disparity of force is one reason. And no, simply being armed does not remove the possibility of reasonable fear of grave danger/life. A gun won't do much to stop a car that's bearing down on you. You might be able to shoot the driver but you still have a large vehicle which will run you over. I mean, we're talking hypothetical here and all, so I'm just giving you an example of how simply having a gun doesn't mean there's zero fear from any source. Maybe be more specific in your question?
In the case of Rittenhouse and Rosenbaum it goes back to disparity of force, since that's more likely what you're looking for in your line of questioning. Having a gun does not de facto make unreasonable any possiblity of fearing grave harm/life.
"The guy with the gun carries it on the presumption that it will make him safe." No. Carrying a fire arm makes it so that one might do all possible things to defend ones self should it be necessary. It does not make you safe merely by it's presence.
"But after he shoots someone he is entitled instead to a paradoxical presumption that his own gun put him in mortal danger?" This question presumes that there is no actor upon the gun if it should be outside of his control. The gun does not exist in a void after it is removed from him in the scenario you keep referencing, so it would have to be that the gun 'in the hands of an unknown person' IS reasonable to assume it would put him in mortal danger.
"How under that omnivorous rule is it possible to keep armed self-defense accountable?" The same criminal statutes that apply to everyone else. Keeping in mind that you made the presumption that the gun exists not in another's hands, but in some void where it no longer has value in your hypothetical world based on events in Kenosha. So your logic there is flawed, at least here rather fatally I think.
"If a shooter claims otherwise, put him on his mettle to prove it." And that was done with Rittenhouse. His required level of proof was to show some portion of self defense. You seem to want to dismiss any possiblity of actions having consequences from anyone who is unarmed simply because the other person was armed. That's not how the law works. You're welcome to advocate changing it. However I don't think you realize the consequences of the direction you're taking.
If you have a knife on you, and I do not then you are armed. I can attack you and if you use the knife it is now your burden of proof to show beyond a reasonable doubt that it was self defense? Tell me, how would you provide such proof. All I have to say is that I saw the knife and felt I was in danger. You have to prove otherwise. So please, feel free to provide that proof.
The only facts you have are that you had a knife and used it in the altercation, and I am unarmed and tried to take it from you. Make your case.
3duceritst, thank you for a thoughtful reply. You at least understood some of my points sufficiently to describe them before moving on. That's better than a lot of the pro-gun crowd are doing.
I also commend you for your focus on the issue of guns and killing. To deepen and enrich your insight into all things gun, you could hardly do better than to develop that side of your insight.
By all means, get yourself a gun well suited to kill game. Then do it. Do it as much as local law permits, for at least a few years. Gather experience in the practical side of gun use, and the everyday impediments people encounter when they do that, hour after hour, in good weather and bad. Hunt under all kinds of conditions of bodily stress, in natural environments where surprises crop up, where the footing is bad, and the light is sometimes worse. See how it works when you are cold, dehydrated, and haven't seen much game. And then you do. Make it a point to hunt alone, and to hunt in groups.
Probably the best training of that sort is to be had by using a shotgun to kill upland birds—pheasants, quail, grouse, and partridges. If you have chukar partridges near you, go for those. Avoid sitting in blinds. Hunt actively. Use a .22 magnum to shoot rabbits from time to time, and get a better sense than a shotgun delivers of what gun damage looks like. Shoot the rabbits in the head. After you are practiced at that kind of hunting, hunt a little bit of larger game, with a bigger rifle.
Cumulative experience of that sort will make you less theoretical and more realistic about guns. You have made assertions about the law, under which lie presumptions about prowess, judgment, and control, which your own experience is too slight to critique. For a better critique, get more experience killing with guns.
I've seen pictures of the McMichaels with bagged game. Deer, I believe. Their experience doing that didn't change Travis McMichael's situation one bit when Arbery charged him and grabbed his shotgun while pummeling him with his fist.
Now you just appear to be trolling.
You're moving the goal posts. I don't need more experience to make me 'more realistic about guns'. You have no idea what my cumulative experience actually is, only what I've told you. My critique is quite well formed, despite your obvious disagreement with whatever portions.
The unarmed person does enjoy that presumption… if he's put on trial. You're making a common mistake we often hear in people discussing prosecutions involving an altercation: thinking that the trial is about which party is to be declared at fault. It's not. It's solely about whether the defendant in the trial at hand is criminally liable.
The shooter does face that question. Indeed, that's almost entirely the question the jury is tasked with answering. First the jury must resolve whether he was in fear for his life, and second the jury must resolve whether that fear was reasonable.
Sorry. That is routinely assumed. Part of it is because most of the time when people succeed in taking a gun away from a cop, they use it on him. Don’t try to take someone’s gun away from them, if you don’t want to be shot by it, because the attempt to take the gun away puts them in reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily injury.
But that is a paradox of bearing arms: if I don't have a gun and an unarmed person accosts me, I generally can't reasonably claim to be in fear of my life.
But if I am carrying a gun, ostensibly for the purpose of self-defense, then the very fact that I have that gun makes that same assailant a deadly threat to me, because he could grab the gun and use it against me.
" if I don't have a gun and an unarmed person accosts me, I generally can't reasonably claim to be in fear of my life."
That's a patently false assertion. Many people are killed by unarmed people every year, and one can easily fear for one's life when accosted by an unarmed person intent on harming you.
I grew up in the Bronx in the '70's, and this was a daily fact of life.
No, it's a patently true assertion. Many people are not killed by unarmed people,¹ and in any case I did not say that one can never claim to be in fear of one's life; I said that one generally can't do so. The test for lethal self-defense is not that one's life hypothetically could be at risk. "Oh, a few people are killed every year by unarmed people, so any unarmed person within arms length of me could pose a threat to my life" is not reasonable.
¹FBI stats have about 650 homicides a year involving "Personal weapons (hands, fists, feet, etc.)," which includes pushing people. That's about 4.5% of homicides.
"Maverick, on what principle are you entitled to conclude someone in a violent situation who is trying to take your gun intends to use it to kill you?"
How about the principle that said person trying to take his gun had previously threatened to kill him?
"They could also intend to disarm you, to end your violence."
End what violence? Rosenbaum was the first person Rittenhouse shot. He hadn't fired a single round until after Rosenbaum tried to take his gun. There was no violence by Rittenhouse until after he was attacked by Rosenbaum.
Slyfield, please try to answer the questions I asked, which were about principles, not about the facts of this case.
The facts here are not in dispute, so why do you insist on ignoring them and demanding an answer from general principles?
Michael P, because the thread is about principles?
And of course the facts are in dispute. I acknowledge that, and withhold judgment because I cannot get past the ambiguity of the evidence. If I were on a jury, the ambiguity would add up to reasonable doubt, and a vote to acquit.
But pro-gun advocates' habit of chorusing conclusory factual assertions in the face of actual ambiguity is disturbing. It implies prejudice against justice when gun advocates are also jury members.
No, you tried to hijack a thread making a very specific factual assertion and turn it into one about general principles.
Poor you, Michael P. You don't get it. Go back and read Volokh's OP. Then read my first comment. Then note who drags in the Kenosha case. Hint: not me.
Poor, poor Stephen Lathrop. You're asking about broad principles relating to specific facts. EV was talking about broad principles of law. You introduced specific facts -- confrontations involving a gun -- and someone contrasted your vague examples with facts from the specific case that started the whole discussion.
Our judicial system doesn't work by making rules that say "when X, Y and Z happen, it is reasonable to believe that there is threat if imminent death or great bodily image". It works by creating legal rules like "use of lethal force is justified when there is a reasonable belief that it is necessary to prevent a threat of imminent death or great bodily harm", and then setting forth rules on what evidence a trier of fact may consider in deciding whether there was that kind of reasonable belief.
Your question is absurd. Conclusions are about facts not principles.
What's wrong, Slyfield? Questions not fun to answer?
The only principle needed is the right to defend oneself. Whether or not that applies in a particular situation is necessarily a question of fact. The problem isn't that your question hasn't been answered it's that you don't like the answer.
Well in this case Rosenbaum actually said to Kyle "If I catch you alone I'll kill you.'
And of course when Kyle was evading Rosenbaum and shouting "Friendly, friendly, friendly', and Rosenbaum responded by saying 'Fuck You' and grabbing the muzzle of the gun.
So the jury heard all the evidence they needed to meet whatever possible burden you think Kyle needed to surmount.
Kazinski, I looked hard to find the best copy available of the drone video. Watched it over and over. To my eyes it utterly disproves your assertion about, "grabbing the muzzle of the gun."
Rosenbaum never got close enough to do that. He was shot quite suddenly, after Rittenhouse, who had been running with his back to Rosenbaum, pivoted to fire from about 5 feet away. To me, on the strength of what can actually be seen, it remains ambiguous whether Rosenbaum intended a deadly attack, but he did not succeed in grabbing the gun.
When you claim, "Rosenbaum actually said to Kyle, "If I catch you alone I'll kill you." I wonder if the certainty implied by, "actually," is warranted. Was there any 3rd party witness to that? If not, why would you not be cautious about what could so obviously be a self-serving lie?
On the video, it looks like Rosenbaum goes down instantly after the first shot. It happened so fast that I am troubled that I cannot see when the subsequent 3 shots were fired, and wonder whether maybe some or all of them occurred before Rosenbaum fell. But I also cannot see how that happened, or square it with testimony about the bullet wounds.
Ambiguous evidence calls for ambiguous conclusions about the facts. What that means for the law and the verdict are different questions.
"Rosenbaum never got close enough to do that."
That's interesting, because the medical examiner testified:
"This is a close range injury, and so his hand is in close proximity or in contact with the end of that rifle...”
The drone footage shows proximity. No contradiction.
The drone footage also shows that even if Rosenbaum intended to grab the gun, he had zero time to do it. The instant before he was shot, Rosenbaum was more than 5 feet away, with the distance closing. Then Rittenhouse pivoted and fired, apparently simultaneously.
There may be other questions about exactly what happened in that sequence—for instance, the drone footage does not show clearly when the other shots were fired, unless they all were fired in less than 2 seconds, maybe less than 1 second, but that is also hard to square with the medical examiner's testimony.
Because of the ambiguity, I even gave some thought to the possibility that the drone footage was somehow edited by the prosecution. It does not answer all the questions, and raises some.
What it does not do is support the conclusion that Rosenbaum grabbed the muzzle of the gun.
"There may be other questions about exactly what happened in that sequence—for instance, the drone footage does not show clearly when the other shots were fired, unless they all were fired in less than 2 seconds, maybe less than 1 second, but that is also hard to square with the medical examiner's testimony."
Sigh. The first google hit says:
"Black testified that all four shots Rittenhouse fired into Rosenbaum's body occurred in 0.739 seconds."
You put a lot of weight on drone footage that, judging from your description, has low time resolution. You put very little weight on eyewitness testimony, such as https://apnews.com/article/kyle-rittenhouse-wisconsin-shootings-george-floyd-kenosha-3b74864f491347cfdd09cfc22ffdf557 . Why is that?
I'm going by the medical examiners testimony of the physical evidence, and the testimony of McGinnis telling what he saw. When the physical evidence matches the eyewitness evidence then I am going to consider that decisive.
I think the prosecutor pretty much proved that the drone video footage was not high resolution enough to see details like that.
The pretense that Rittenhouse was perceived to be an active shooter could, at best, be applied to the 2nd & 3rd events. Many years ago, our NH AG sent a memo out to all state and local agencies that being armed while NOT committing or threatening to commit a crime was no cause for police to respond. So, the 1st event was indeed initiated by violence, but violence directed against Rittenhouse. Just as walking into a bank with a note in your pocket and sack in hand is not a “bank robbery in progress”, open carry of a firearm at a protest is not “an active shooter incident in progress.”
There is no serious argument that the people pursuing a retreating Rittenhouse were heroes attempting to neutralize an active shooter - that was a fantasy created by the prosecution. Even if the case, that the 2nd and 3rd pursuers mistakenly thought him an active shooter, that mistake does not disable Rittenhouse's right of self-defense. While the distance between the 2nd and 3rd persons and Rittenhouse became shorter as they closed in on him, to say that qualifies as Rittenhouse “charging” at them reverses his retreat and their pursuit.
Would not citizens mistakenly attacking an innocent person carrying a firearm and mistakenly attacking an innocent jogger both be vigilantes?
As you noted, it is irrelevant from several points of view (hypothetically) that the 2nd and 3rd assailants/victims believed that it was an active shooter situation. First, and foremost, it wasn’t their perceptions of the matter that mattered - it was those of the defendant, Kyle Rittenhouse. Secondly, even if that had been the case, Rittenhouse was retreating and trying to withdraw when they attacked him. That would have reestablished his innocence, and thus his right to claim self defense against them. Third, he was trying to reach the police line, and thus safety. They were thus trying to prevent him from reaching them and safety, and to try to turn himself into them. With their claim of them reacting to an active shooter situation, what exactly were they trying to do? Obviously not to hold him for the police (they were trying to prevent him reaching them). To administer mob justice? That obviously wouldn't have been legal. Keep this in mind - police are routinely given this power. It is necessary for their job. But their trying to detain him was not sanctioned by law. They were not privileged to do so, so that didn’t prevent the normal operation of self defense law in favor of the defendant (I.e. you cannot use deadly force against police trying to detain you for committing a violent felony in their presence, but it doesn’t prevent you against non police).
Let me add that the latter two assailants/victims may have felt justified in trying to catch Rittenhouse, because he had shot and killed one of theirs. I was bothered by that, because it was so clearly illegal, at least from the point of view of a lawyer. But they were in the midst of a crime spree, involving assault and arson, and both had criminal records. Indeed, Lefty was carrying his Glock illegally concealed (it requires a CCW license in WI, which he didn’t have, and likely couldn’t) and for similar reason probably had obtained it illegally.
But then I realized that the situation was very similar to what we see with inner city gangs. People are routinely beat up for flashing the wrong gang signs, or wearing the wrong gang signs. And are even killed, esp if they were known to have killed a member of a rival gang, no matter how legally justified. And in TV shows, they routinely show no awareness that they had committed a violent crime. Of course they gave a beat down to this guy - he was from XXX set or gang. Everyone knows what happens when a Crip walks into Blood territory. Etc. And then are surprised when they are arrested for the crime that they had just confessed to.
Rittenhouse is the guy that wandered into another gang’s turf, and that gang tried to show him the error of his ways. That was what I think was going on there. They felt perfectly justified in chasing him, knocking him down, taking his gun away, then administering some rough justice for shooting and killing one of theirs. They probably thought it morally right, and maybe even legal. It wasn’t, just as gang beat downs rarely are legal either. Maybe they didn’t want to actually kill him. We will probably never know. But Rittenhouse didn’t know that. And the law says that is what mattered.
Arbery attacked Travis McMichael, not vice versa. And he was neither a jogger nor innocent of criminal trespass.
It's weird how someone who goes around calling everyone a liar lies so freely. Or maybe it's not so weird at all.
It's weird that you think no one will notice that when you go around calling people "liars" you can never specify any actual lies, liar.
You claimed he was "neither a jogger nor innocent of criminal trespass," when in fact he was a jogger and innocent of criminal trespass. You further claimed that Abery was the attacker, when in fact he was the victim of some armed thugs who saw a black person around and decided to accost him. He tried to get away, and they chased him down again, and then threatened to kill him.
My understanding is that the claim that Arbery was jogging in his Timberlands has been debunked at trial, but I don't know the deails. However Arbery was unequivocally guilty of criminal trespass, many times over. The McMichaels took off after him not because he was "a black person" but because he was THE black person whose criminal trespasses they had seen on video many times and which TM had himself witnessed on 2/11/20. At no point before Arbery attacked, which caused TM to point his shotguun at Arbery, did the McMs threaten to kill Arbery. Your lies are multiplying like rabbits.
All of them. Every single time.
They "could", but maybe they aren't. What standard of proof are you proposing?
It's not just about who has the gun or one gun versus a club, etc. "Disparity of Force" comes into play as well. Several young men versus one young man or woman. A young man versus an older person. Not even going to get into the "Tueller Drill" at this point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEjxg1m3ORU
Agree with that.
Many things not relevant to the topic, including the cause of the dinosaur extinction, the best recipe for chicken cacciatore, and Professor Volokh's Super Bowl picks.
The things you bring up may be relevant to what has to be proven or disproven, but have nothing to do with the OP's topic, which was who has to prove or disprove them.
Scrolling through the posts, I will inadvertently hit the Reply button. But then when I hit Cancel Reply, the system thinks I have hit Flag Comment.
V. Annoying
The continuum of force here is not continuous, but rather step function. There is non deadly force, then there is deadly force. There isn’t deadly force, more deadly force, and even more, with the person escalating losing their right to claim self defense at that level.
What that means here, is that the first person who can claim a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily injury at the hands of the second, is the one who can claim self defense. Rosenbaum had repeatedly screamed at Rittenhouse that he was going to kill him, then grabbed the gun, presumably to try to take it away. Was it reasonable that Rittenhouse believed that when Rosenbaum grabbed his gun, he was trying to take it away from him, so that he could use it against him, and fulfill his threat of killing Rittenhouse? I think so, and obviously so did the jury.
Let me add that a significant number of police killed every year, are killed with their own gun, after it is taken away from them by their assailant.
Rosenbaum had repeatedly screamed at Rittenhouse that he was going to kill him, then grabbed the gun, presumably to try to take it away.
Bruce, there is one surprisingly good version of the drone footage—among a lot of bad ones. It took me a while to find the good one. I don't think it shows Rosenbaum grabbing the gun. I think it shows Rittenhouse running, then slowing, then pivoting and firing quite suddenly, from about 5 feet away, and Rosenbaum falling instantly.
Was there third party testimony to Rosenbaum screaming he was going to kill Rittenhouse? If not, why would anyone accept Rittenhouse's uncorroborated claim?
Those are not rhetorical questions. I did not watch much of the trial, so if I am mistaken, tell me what supported those claims by Rittenhouse.
Yes, there was such third party testimony: https://www.insider.com/witness-says-joseph-rosenbaum-threatened-to-kill-him-and-rittenhouse-2021-11
There were actually two witnesses that testified that Rosenbaum had threatened Rittenhouse. And it should be noted here that both of those witnesses were put on the stand by the prosecution, they were not defense witnesses.
Not only was there third party evidence attesting to the threat, there was extensive video evidence of Rosenbaum acting in a manner that one of the witnesses described as being "hyper-aggressive".
There really is no possible way for the prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Rosenbaum was not a credible threat to Rittenhouse. In fact the Kraus the ADA pretty much conceded that in his closing argument rebuttal when he said Kyle should have just submitted to being beaten by Rosenbaum:
“everybody takes a beating sometimes.”
“Was there third party testimony to Rosenbaum screaming he was going to kill Rittenhouse? If not, why would anyone accept Rittenhouse's uncorroborated claim?”
Remember, the burden for the defense is introducing enough evidence that there is a possibility of self defense. From that point forward, the burden of proof is on the prosecution to disprove self defense beyond a reasonable doubt. The case cited by EV above involved the Constitutionality under the 14th Amdt of placing the burden of proof, by a preponderance of the evidence, on the defense. The majority said yes, but a more articulate minority said no. At that point, it was 48-2 in favor of the requiring the prosecution to disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt. One of the two (S. Carolina?) fell soon after that. My latest copy of Branca’s Law of Self Defense shows only Ohio as a standout, requiring defendants to prove self defense, and it may have fallen since then.
My memory is that there was some forensic evidence backing up the defense claim as to Rosenbaum grabbing the gun - his skin cells on the barrel, and contact range GSR esp on his hand. If there actually is drone video showing that Rosenbaum never reached out to grab the gun, it was never in evidence, and probably never in the possession of the prosecution. For all we know, not having been subject to cross examination, it could have been fabricated. We just don’t know.
Stephen, you keep repeating this, but it's in direct contradiction of the forensic evidence, which showed muzzle flash marks on Rosenbaum's hand, not the kind of powder staining one might pick up at 5', but only if his hand was on, or very close to the muzzle. This was discussed in examination of the forensic expert.
"First, is a person with a gun being confronted by a person with no weapon at all? Perhaps in such cases the burden of proving self-defense should be entirely on the shooter."
Not so except in the case in which the person with the gun engages the encouter initially. If the unarmed person begins the encounter it is considered affirmatively self defense. However in the case of use of deadly force the armed person must provide some modicum of evidence that they feared grave bodily harm or death. Mitigating factors as mentioned in disparity of foce as someone else linked. Some of those are visible and known, some are not readily visible, for example a physical disability that does not present visually.
The problem with your 'principles' argument is that you seem to take the position that merely having a gun means that it has already been escalated prior to any engagement. This is factually wrong, because it requires the USE of the fire arm, not the mere presence. Otherwise in your viewpoint Grosskreutz was every bit the aggressor that Rittenhouse was.
"Second, is the only gun in sight the one the shooter brought to the scene. The argument, "I feared for my life because he might have taken my gun," should be subjected to an elevated standard of proof, lest it turn into an all-purpose license to kill."
Here you're arguing the other side of the debate you're trying to create. If the first person with a gun is assumed prone to shoot/harm others, then you can't dismiss the idea out of hand that someone taking the gun by force wouldn't be held within the same assumption. Either it's an equal playing field or you're just arguing out of both sides of your mouth. So yes, it's reasonable to assume that if someone is trying to forcibly take your gun from you that the person doing so would create a reasonable fear of death. The same fear you grant is reasonable of the first person holding the gun.
A side note on that, if you grab ahold of a gun, even if the other person still has a hold of it as well, you're considered armed. By your argument, just as dangerous as the initial individual.
"On what principle should the law decide to heed the pro-gun view over the other, or vice versa?"
Freedom. Because pro-gun doesn't require others to carry to make everyone safer and for the benefit of society. Yet the opposite holds true because? I want to know, do you think the government should regulate every portion of your life, or should the government generally be less involved in your day to day decisions on life? I mean, if you're one that thinks the government should be all up in everyone's business I'm fine with that so long as you admit it. I just happen to disagree with you there.
"...people who have guns ought to bear a heightened responsibility for any contribution their gun makes to deadly violence."
They do, it's called criminal investigations/charges. It happens often enough, but just like many other crimes it doesn't always lead to conviction or even prosecution.
The mere act of having a gun doesn't automatically contribue to deadly violence. There are loads of guns in the US which haven't killed a single person. There's likely plenty have haven't ever shot anything living. Of all the guns I've owned only one ever shot a living creature, and that was a squirrell which was already dying from the dog that caught it. None of the others I have owned have ever shot a living creature and honestly I'd like to keep it that way. Except in the case of sustenance if that ever becomes necessary.
One thing that's rather telling about the case against Rittenhouse is the claim that it was provoking that Rittenhouse was just carrying a gun that night. Why? Why Kyle in particular?
None of the military veterans that were armed were attacked. It's because he looked young and vulnerable, and Rosenbaum thought he could take him.
Being perceived as being vulnerable is seen as provoking an attack. Well maybe he was young and inexperienced, but he wasn't so vulnerable after all. Audie Murphy never looked all that tough to me either.
" but he wasn't so vulnerable after all "
Isn't the only reason Rittenhouse is alive to fulfill his downscale destiny* one guy's decision not to kill Rittenhouse when he had the chance?
* I have some sympathy for Rittenhouse. He had lousy parents and lived in a shambling community. He seems to be socially awkward and substantially less than bright.
However, his decisions to become a dropout; to use a strawman to purchase a rifle; to refrain from getting a real job or develop a marketable skill; and to act like a 10-year-old playing police officer, medic, cowboy and astronaut in his fantasy world; and to pal around with racists indicate he contributed bad judgment and deficient character to the mix that produced the loser we behold today.
Is it true the military wouldn't take him?
Ouch. Very ouch.
You can't write anything without fantasizing or otherwise lying, Asshole.
Rittenhouse graduated high school and is taking an online course (Nursing, as it happens) from ASU.
Only thing painful is how much of an idiot you are
And for those conducting the obvious hand wringing over the whole Rittenhouse verdict, please save her your fake tears. Just a few weeks ago you were more than happily quiet when the Chicago DA refused to prosecute an actual shoot out, among gang members (many of which are probably prohibited from even owning or possessing guns) under the quite unusual application of "mutual combat".
The burden of proof in self-defense cases is NOT on the claimant in Florida. We got that amended in 2017. 776.032 Florida Statutes now states:
(4) In a criminal prosecution, once a prima facie claim of self-defense immunity from criminal prosecution has been raised by the defendant at a pretrial immunity hearing, the burden of proof by clear and convincing evidence is on the party seeking to overcome the immunity from criminal prosecution provided in subsection (1).
Did you try reading the post before posting.
Re: Ohio's current law of self-defense, see R.C. 2901.05(B)(1): "the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused person did not use the force in self-defense, defense of another, or defense of that person's residence."
https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-code/section-2901.05
Zimmerman was not guilty. Kyle is not guilty. Any way you cut it.
Trayvon's very dumb girlfriend forgot her coaching and accidentally testified that TM was safe at her door but decided to go back and fight GZ.
Very similar the prosecution witnesses in Kyle's case kept making the defense case. That's because it was blatant self defense
Yea we can split hairs about one interpretation versus another but it doesn't make a difference in either one of these cases.
Unless you interpret no right to self defense.