The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Sean Wilentz Reviews Noah Feldman's New Lincoln Book, "The Broken Constitution"
"Feldman contends that [Jefferson] Davis was right and Lincoln was wrong."
In the New York Times, Professor Sean Wilentz (Princeton) review Feldman's new Lincoln book, titled "The Broke Constitution." Wilentz confirmed my suspicions about the book: in order to support the narrative that Lincoln broke the Constitution, Feldman would have to adopt the pro-Confederacy understanding of the Constitution. You should read the entire review, but this passage sums things up well:
The framers, [Jefferson] Davis pronounced, had enshrined in the Constitution the right to hold property in humans, but frenzied antislavery Northerners undermined the law of the land; and now the flood was surging, pouring "turgid waters through the broken Constitution." Davis's pro-slavery remarks provide Noah Feldman with both the epigraph and the title of his new book about Jefferson Davis's nemesis, Abraham Lincoln, which seems a very odd choice. Unlike Davis, Lincoln never believed that the Constitution had been broken, even after the slaveholders began their rebellion in 1860-61. Instead, Lincoln charged that the insurrection Davis helped to lead was "the essence of anarchy." On both points, though, Feldman contends that Davis was right and Lincoln was wrong. Moreover, Feldman argues, despite Lincoln's professed fidelity to the framers' work, he was the one who finally broke the Constitution during the Civil War by turning the presidency into a quasi dictatorship, much as his Confederate and Copperhead enemies alleged he did. Only then, Feldman concludes, paradoxically, could America redeem its claims to nobility by purging the original sin of slavery, refounding itself by embracing what he calls a new, expansive "moral Constitution."Feldman's reliance on Jefferson Davis to frame a book on Abraham Lincoln thus makes perfect sense: Aside from the slaveholders' insistence on the ethical legitimacy of slavery, Feldman's constitutional analysis consistently backs their arguments over Lincoln's. Less than perfect, unfortunately, are the renderings of American history he offers to support his surprising thesis.
Wilentz skewers Feldman's incomplete history. The Harvard law professor downplays and even omits material that does not support his thesis.
From the start, however, Feldman's depiction of the Constitution's connection to slavery is questionable. Although he calls it the "compromise Constitution," Feldman's Constitution was almost seamlessly pro-slavery. The famous negotiations that offered concessions to the slaveholders come across more like abject submission. Feldman ignores the antislavery currents inside the Federal Convention that challenged and sometimes defeated the pro-slavery delegates. He overlooks how much the Constitution's provision authorizing abolition of U.S. participation in the Atlantic slave trade was an antislavery victory over the lower South, which tried to block it as a dealbreaker — a measure that, even when weakened by a maneuver Madison bemoaned, was the first serious blow ever against the trade undertaken in the name of a national government. Feldman fails to see the Constitution as an ambiguous document that offered protections to the slaveholders but also contained considerable antislavery potential, sufficient for thoughtful if wishful Northern abolitionists like Benjamin Rush to hail it as the death knell of slavery. Having erased the Constitution's ambiguities over slavery, Feldman claims antislavery activists down to Lincoln could not seriously invoke the Constitution in order to attack slavery "because the Constitution said nothing against the practice."
On the specifics, Feldman did a shoddy job discussing the Emancipation Proclamation.
Still, it strains credulity to indict Lincoln for tyranny because he took emergency actions, almost exclusively against Confederates, spies and other traitors, in order to save democratic government, all the while holding open elections and suffering the merciless attacks of Democrats. Finally, Feldman cuts corners to claim that the Emancipation Proclamation was an arbitrary violation of slaveholders' property rights.
Words you never want to see in a book review: "ignores," "overlooks," "fails," and "erased," "strains credulity," and "cuts corners."
Feldman is not alone with sidling up to confederate constitutionalism. The 1619 Project agrees with Chief Justice Taney's interpretation of the Constitution in Dred Scott. So much of the modern progressive project depends on the original Constitution being a failed, sinful document. That argument must be accepted as a doctrine of faith to undermine originalism. How can anyone be an originalist, they argue, if the Constitution was itself "broken." Willentz explains:
Eradicating slavery, Feldman insists, would require breaking the very Constitution that Lincoln claimed to venerate.
See, Feldman contends, Jefferson Davis was a more faithful adherent of the Constitution than was Lincoln! To say it aloud is to realize how misguided these professors are. The better answer is that Davis and Taney were wrong, and Lincoln was right! It is a shame how many sophisticated people feel compelled to agree with the confederates. Yet, we originalists are considered the white supremacists!
Randy Barnett and I are working on a book on slavery and the Constitution, which should be ready by the Fall of 2022--just in the time for the Federalist Society National Lawyers Convention. I hope our book provides a more balanced account of this important topic.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
“ Randy Barnett and I are working on a book on slavery and the Constitution, which should be ready by the Fall of 2022--just in the time for the Federalist Society National Lawyers Convention. I hope our book provides a more balanced account of this important topic.”
I predict that you and Randy will be in for a rude awakening once professional historians evaluate it. Bet it makes Wilentz’s criticism look mild.
LTG, I don't know about the rude awakening part, but Professor Blackman certainly put it out there with his comment; I will say that. Now let's see if he backs it up. Time will tell.
Will you discount "professional historians" who act like political hacks? Or would that disqualify all of them?
I am talking about trained historians who do this for a living. The people who actually study American slavery as their life’s work will undoubtedly be extremely unimpressed by whatever these two noted hacks with zero historical training (but who have three year degrees in deciding they can speak authoritatively on any and every subject) come up with.
In other words, no.
I’m guessing like most people here you are uninformed about the historical profession and how it works.
He's expressed a more accurate grasp of how it actually works than your claim that ~"academic professional" hacks belong on pedestals.
They may not belong on pedestals, but why Barnett and Blackman ought to be considered sophisticated students of history is beyond me.
Apparently, according to you, the views of those who spend lifetimes studying American history are hackish, while B&B are careful and objective analysts, because....
I'm sure Brett will be along to tell us about Bellesiles for the 999th time.
"Apparently, according to you..."
Try limiting your claims about what I've said to what I've actually said. It will make you look like less of an ass.
Lol you should try the same. You claimed I was putting people up on a pedestal when I did no such thing.
Bullshit. You are trying to do exactly that.
Except I literally did not say that you inferred it. Which leads me to conclude the rule is it’s not okay when Bernard makes inferences about things you say but okay when you do it to other people.
No I didn't "infer" anything. I correctly CHARACTERIZED what I saw you doing.
And Bernard characterized what you said, but you got mad.
Also: how do you “characterize” as saying something it explicitly
did not say without without making an inference?
Is there some new form of reasoning previously unknown to humans you’re employing?
"...Bernard characterized what you said, but you got mad."
I at no point said anything that could possibly be "characterized" as "B&B are careful and objective analysts". Quote me.
Don’t know about pedestals. But they do deserve a recognition about how their training and everyday work will more likely lead them to come to better to better conclusions about American history than the amateur hour that is Blackman/Barnett.
What you're engaged in what is called "appeal to authority", rightly a recognized fallacy.
We'll find out how the "experts" stand up against "amateur" criticism and vice versa when we see the arguments. This is neither quantum physics nor does it involve reading ancient Greek. Most of us ought to be able to figure out who the bullshitters are, and someone holding an endowed chair is no guarantee of anything.
Appeal to authority != recognizing expertise is a thing that exists.
Hint: we haven't seen the critiques, so we have nothing to appeal to authority about.
Right I’m just guessing based on their track record and approach to things it won’t be well received by the people who study such things for a living. I could be wrong, though.
LTG imagined an irrefutable argument into existance against an argument he hasn't seen. Your imagination is equally unchained. apparently.
It’s a prediction.
It's a wet dream masquerading as a prediction.
No but appeal to authority does equal claiming that expertise necessarily makes you right. As Michael Shermer says, "Foxes know many things while hedgehogs know one big thing. Being deeply knowledgeable on one subject narrows one's focus and increases confidence, but it also blurs dissenting views until they are no longer visible, thereby transforming data collection into bias confirmation and morphing self-deception into self-assurance." (And read the rest of the article for what he has to say about "expert" historians.)
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wrong-again-why-experts-p_b_1181657
Again, It’s not about the position it’s about the work. The people who study things for a lifetime versus the amateurs.
Actually, it's wrongly recognized as a fallacy. It's only a fallacy to rely on an authority who isn't really an authority.¹ Deferring to actual experts is generally the right thing to do. Experts can, of course, be wrong; "so-and-so says so" is not an automatic debate ender. But "I found a YouTube video that says otherwise" is the fallacy, not "Physicists say so."
¹ Like Prof. Blackman.
Nobody is impressed by your ivory-tower credentialist, clique-driven elitism.
It has nothing to do with the credential itself or the awarding institution. It has to do with the work itself. Work that historians engage in every day, and that Blackman and Barnett (and Feldman for that matter) do on a lark in between opining on anything and everything under the sun outside their expertise.
Sorry, we've seen how a lot of "academic" "work" is crap. No sale.
Okay which works by professional historians have you read in the last, say the last 5 years, and how did you figure out they were “crap.”
Did you:
Review all the primary sources relied upon and determine that the author didn’t understand them or was misleading about them? (If it was a work about a non-US topic, did you obtain fluency or at least reading proficiency in the relevant languages?)
Did you conduct your own archival and primary source research that revealed their conclusions were erroneous?
Did you engage with the field’s relevant historiography and determine that the work was not consistent with what has been largely accepted and didn’t give a persuasive reason for abandoning it?
Did you read reviews by other people who work on the same topic
about them?
LOL! As if any of that was necessary to debunk, say, The 1619 Project. Or do you think no "professional academic historians" contributed to THAT line of crap?
So no. You actually have no idea what you’re talking about, and you’ve done no actual work to lead you to the “crap”determination. You don’t read academic history, You’re just spouting your feelings.
FWIW, other than a few of the statements in the introductory essay (by non-historian Nikole Hannah Jones) people who attack 1619 don’t tend to actually engage with anything else in it.
For instance: how would you go about demonstrating the Kevin Kruse piece about the relationship between segregation and highway construction in Atlanta was “crap?” Which primary sources do you have that would refute that?
Right. Gandydancder is full of shit and doesn't actually know anything.
But he loves to repeat the latest crap he read somewhere or heard on Fox or whatever. He's typical of the people who show up here from time to time spewing utter nonsense.
Oh, please. Why would I need "primary sources" to debunk readily observed spurious logic occurring at the copnclusory level? Tell me what Kruse purports to derive from the fact that freeways were plowed through "urban blight" in Atlanta that contributes to the 1619 Project's nonsensuical conclusions and maybe I'll point out the logical flaws. Or it could be perfectly good work that is pure filler as far as "1619"s conclusions are concerned, for all I know. But don't try to get me to accept more work than you're doing, because it doesn't work that way.
So, if your "professional" historians act like partisan hacks, will you exclude their opinions on the forthcoming Barnett/Blackman book?
Stop putting it in scare quotes. It is a profession, dude. I’ll probably look to see what the experts in American slavery say, like David Blight or Adam Rothman for instance. Unfortunately you’ll probably assume any criticism as hackery and disregard their expertise on the issue.
In other words, "HAHAHA still no".
In other words, no amount of explaining the discipline of history will convince you that they’re not simply “partisan hacks” and get you to admit they might know more about a topic than you or Blackman/Barnett
Or, to put it another way, https://twitter.com/WillMcPhail/status/815899174474567680.
We know that you'd volunteer to "fly the plane" for any academic historian that you disagreed with politically, don't we?
Ah, the classic Appeal to New Yorker Twitter. Why don't you link to that other famous New Yorker comic that shows how desolate things are, west of the Hudson?
1) It was a cover, not a comic.
2) You apparently don't realize that it was mocking New Yorkers' provincialism, rather than depicting the country as being desolate.
1) So what?
2) Yes, now the New Yorker proudly wears that provincialism on its sleeve.
You overlook that much of law scholarship IS legal history. The fact that historians weigh a lot more evidence than case law, and legislative history often reduces clarity about what the law actually was.
Similarly, trained professionals who had spent their entire lives studying engineering and applying their knowledge would undoubtedly be unimpressed with the likelihood that a couple of bicycle makers from Dayton would solve the problems necessary to make heavier-than-air flight possible.
Are you discarding expertise?
No one is saying trust all experts without reading what they say. I don't understand your thesis here.
Of course you don't.
Are you not jumping the gun a little? Perhaps wait to read the book?
Just making a prediction based on their known abilities and his belief that he’s going to bring a “more balanced approach”
Nah, he doesn't need to read the book, much less the critiques. He already knows that the critiques will be insightful and accurate and all professional-historian, and the book will just be full of motivated reasoning and ahistoric baloney. Just like the 1619 Project and the Second Amendment corpus analysis were sterling examples of professional historianness.
I don’t know for sure, just making a prediction based on track records and the characters of the authors.
The irony is that Sean Wilentz himself led some of the criticisms of the 1619 Project.
The 1619 Project occurred to both of us independently as an examople demolishing LTG's talking points.
Here's an academic professional historian, Jill Lepore, David Woods Kemper ’41 Professor of American History at Harvard University, bullshitting:
I'm sorry this stuff makes you sad, but you're going to have to bring more than that if you want to actually engage with the material.
But you have really bother to do that. How many times have you reacted with contempt when people ask you to check the primary source? You live in a world completely mediated for you, and you see to like it that way.
Only prechewed info for Gandydancer!
I'm not exactly fully confident that Blackman's book will be good, but I hesitate to review it before it's published.
The abolition of Atlantic slave trade had do with the fact slavery didn’t really make economic sense in 1788…and then in 1793 a black swan event happened when the Cotton Gin was invented and suddenly slavery made economic sense in the Deep South.
Slavery was an economic institution, not a racial one. The industrial revolution would have ended it without a war.
I don’t know about that—America very racist and when Lincoln was president we were still killing Native Americans and displacing them along with mistreating Asians working here.
As if either comment of yours was relevant to his claim, Crummyton.
In 1776 slavery was legal in all 13 original colonies but was receeding.
It was abolished by different methods in some of the early states but even some of those states still had slaves who had not been freed. In one state as I recall all children were considered free, but the parents remained in bondage. In Virginia, Delaware and Maryland the number of slaves was declining because they were unneeded. Some slaves were sold South to the new cotton producing areas.
The Industrial Revolution is generally considered to have ended around 1840.....before the Civil War. But I presume you mean the industrial growth of the early 1900s brought about by electricity, mass production, and assembly lines. But those industrial workers were treated pretty horribly, which gave rise to labor unions, but only because the workers were free. If they had been property, you really think those conditions were less ripe for abuse of workers than mass agriculture? It is likely slavery would have eventually ended even without the South's Insurrection, but I doubt the prime cause would have been the industrial revolution of the early 1900s. Rather, I think the economic incentives of the economically powerful owners of factories and other labor intensive industries would have been to maintain, maybe even expand, that horrible institution rather than to dismantle it.
But the bigger issue: Are you suggesting it would have been just fine if human beings had continued to be legally treated as property for another 50-60 year? And on what basis would the former enslaved people and their descendants have obtained anything approaching equal civil rights within the next 50 to 100 years if not for the Emancipation Proclamation followed by the 13th through 15th Amendments? Do you think the South would have ratified those amendments in 1920 or 1940 or 1960 or 1980? Minimizing the evil of slavery by saying, oh it would have ended eventually anyway, is, itself, evil. Minimizing the legacy of slavery by pretending that its decisive end in 1865 did not have beneficial effects (though much slower and less complete even now than they should have been) which could not have been achieved through a slow death decades later is also evil.
Don't do be evil.
Causing the death of the better part of a million American citizens was pretty evil, too.
One might argue that was baked in once we founded a country that was half slave and half free.
One might argue that of one were determined to evade Lincoln's responsibility for it.
Here were Grants thoughts about the war, which do include Sarcastros simplistic formulation but he adds more nuance and details:
I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse. I do not question, however, the sincerity of the great mass of those who were opposed to us.”
“The cause of the great War of the Rebellion against the United States will have to be attributed to slavery. For some years before the war began it was a trite saying among some politicians that ‘A state half slave and half free cannot exist.’ All must become slave or all free, or the state will go down. I took no part myself in any such view of the case at the time, but since the war is over, reviewing the whole question, I have come to the conclusion that the saying is quite true.
“Slavery was an institution that required unusual guarantees for its security wherever it existed; and in a country like ours where the larger portion of it was free territory inhabited by an intelligent and well-to-do population, the people would naturally have but little sympathy with demands upon them for its protection. Hence the people of the South were dependent upon keeping control of the general government to secure the perpetuation of their favorite institution. They were enabled to maintain this control long after the States where slavery existed had ceased to have the controlling power, through the assistance they received from odd men here and there throughout the Northern States. They saw their power waning, and this led them to encroach upon the prerogatives and independence of the Northern States by enacting such laws as the Fugitive Slave Law. By this law every Northern man was obliged, when properly summoned, to turn out and help apprehend the runaway slave of a Southern man. Northern marshals became slave-catchers, and Northern courts had to contribute to the support and protection of the institution.
“This was a degradation which the North would not permit any longer than until they could get the power to expunge such laws from the statute books. Prior to the time of these encroachments the great majority of the people of the North had no particular quarrel with slavery, so long as they were not forced to have it themselves. But they were not willing to play the role of police for the South in the protection of this particular institution.”
Agreed. Which is why the southern traitors were treated much much too leniently after the war.
That there is any push back against taking down monuments commemorating those responsible for both the continuation of slavery and the death of "the better part of a million American citizens" says volumes about too many of our fellow citizens. Evil, compounded by evil, perpetrated by the likes of traitor Robert E. Lee (who, in a turn of divine justice or cosmic karma, died not a lawful citizen of the U.S.). Shame on anyone who venerates these men.
Shame on those who succeeded in removing a statue of a white abolitionist because he was a white man who lived in the middle of the 19th century. Shame on those who succeeded in removing a glacially deposited boulder because of unconfirmed reports that a century-old newspaper article referred to it using a name built around a racial slur. Shame on those demanding that we remove statues of presidents like Washington and Lincoln.
An awful lot of the pushback against removing statues is not due to any veneration of, or even affection for, the subject -- but only to the accurate predictions of what erasures would be demanded soon after.
You cannot attack a general proposition (taking down the statues of Confederates is a bad thing to defend) with anecdotes.
What erasures have been demanded?
I gave three examples. How many more do you want? Teddy Roosevelt, Thomas Jefferson, Christopher Columbus, William Pitt, Thomas Huxley? Feared white supremacists Augustus Caesar and Marcus Aurelius?
You gave examples about statues, not erasure.
Try again?
Teddy Roosevelt wasn't demanded and the family took it down voluntarily to be replaced with a statue that is less racist. They have a great exhibit about the debate if you ever go to the museum.
Yeah -- the policy should have been "One Tree, One Rope, One Rebel".
Gandydancer : "Causing the death of the better part of a million American citizens was pretty evil, too"
The amount of Lost Cause whining we've been seeing on this site recent months is pretty amazing.
Well, Abe Lincoln seemed to think it was, if not "fine," then at least a good option. His plan was for gradual, compensated emancipation, with slavery being finally abolished by 1900 (https://www.infoplease.com/primary-sources/government/presidential-speeches/state-union-address-abraham-lincoln-december-1-1862).
This just in: Lincoln was not a saint on racial issues.
Also, the South would never have gone with it. Their way of life had by then revolved around slavery. You can't bribe someone to give up their way of life, no matter how immoral it is.
The South didn't have to go with it. He was proposing a constitutional amendment. The South (claiming to have seceded) was boycotting Congress, so they weren't there to vote against it, and the North had more than 3/4 of the states, and so could have ratified it.
How would that have avoided the Civil War, or indeed changed anything, other than paying a bunch of money to a bunch of rebels?
See, this is the bad faith of the Lost Causers. We get the "Lincoln was a bloody power-mad tyrant" and "Lincoln tried too hard to avoid conflict."
It would have required the invention of practical mechanical harvesting machines for cotton and sugar cane, which didn't happen until well after the Civil War. The weren't widely used until after WWII.
You may want to check your chronology.
If the industrial revolution was going to end slavery it would have done so well before 1860. Indeed, to a large degree it relied on cotton from the southern states. There was a reason the Confederacy enjoyed considerable support in the UK.
Both are true, the industrial revolution did doom slavery in industries that were transformed by the industrial revolution.
But the industrial revolution didn’t really start transforming agriculture until near the end of the 19th century. In 1900 60% of all Americans still lived in rural areas, which tells you where the labor was being used.
If farm mechanization didn’t drastically reduce the need for farm labor we’d still have 60% living on farms because that’s where the food is. And the end of slavery did little to change the fact that most blacks, free or slave, were farm workers, because most Americans were, most of the world’s labor worked on farms well into the 1900’s.
I'm not convinced it'd be over; oppression creates a great fear of change in the oppressor, about what the oppressed would do if freed.
Untrained labor is still a thing in demand in America. And slavery seems a very efficient way to enjoy the fruits of such labor without paying for it.
No; slavery (at least in the U.S.) was a racial institution. And the industrial revolution hadn't ended it without a war.
Are the people who write this garbage like Mr. Feldman completely unaware of the history of the United States? It would seem so.
The Civil did not start over the abolition of slavery. It started when South Carolina initiated an armed attack on a United States military facility. This was followed by the southern army marching on Washington and engaging in a battle at Bull Run. So the facts, as opposed to the dreams of the Lost Cause, is that a group of states started an armed conflict against the United States.
Despite pressure, Lincoln did not abolish slavery. Instead he issued a proclamation that seized the property of the rebels; the Emacipation Proclamation only applied to the states that rebelled, slavery was still legal in non rebel states. No one disputes the ability of the United States to seize the property of those who rebel against it. (Today a version of this is called Civil Forfeiture and apparently is mostly legal. Even if not, no one believes convicted criminals should not forfeit property. Ever hear of 'fines').
Slavery was abolished by the 13th amendment. So the idea that the Constitution enshrined slavery and freeing slaves or taking slaves was Unconstitutional is so rediculous one questions how the subject book in this post ever got written much less published. It certainly does not deserve a serious review, serious consideration and any other fate than disposal in the nearest circular file.
"It started when South Carolina initiated an armed attack on a United States military facility."
Or, alternatively, when the federal government invested an unfinished fort in Confederate territory, threatening the port of Charleston.
FWIW:
"...on December 17, 1836, South Carolina officially ceded all "right, title and, claim" to the site of Fort Sumter to the United States."
For one thing, the right to own property is not the right to post foreign troops on it.
Actually, it is. It's the right to do what one wants with it.
They were not, of course, "foreign" troops in the first place, but even if they were it would be irrelevant. If the Cuban armed forces tomorrow decided to seize Guantanamo Bay from the U.S. by force, I guarantee you we would consider this to be an act of war.
The army of the States remaining in the Union was absolutely a foreign army after South Carolina seceded.
The only reason Cuba does not denounce the unequal treaty that is the excuse for the occupation of Guantanimo is that they lack the power to do so, act on it, and survive the consequences of doing so. That is the nature of the State of Nature that exists betwwen sovereign States.
I own my house, but cannot invite the Cuban army to take occupation of it and defend its posession against US Federal forces. That you claim otherwise is just... strange.
South Carolina, of course, never seceded. It certainly tried to, but since it could not lawfully do so, it did not.
That Cuba is less powerful than the U.S. may speak to why Cuba has not attempted to seize Gitmo, but is irrelevant to the point I raised: attempting to do so would be an act of war. If Cuba were strong it might win that war, but that would not change the nature of the act.
If SC thought they had a legal right to secede the proper course was to file a lawsuit not bombard Ft. Sumpter.
Roger Taney was still Chief Justice until he died in 1864, they couldn’t have been worried they wouldn’t get a fair hearing.
The fort was property of the Federal Government when South Carolina suceeded. The ethical course would have been to negotiate a fair price, not open fire on an essentaly defenseless instalation.
Ther ethical course would have been for Lincoln to get his foreign troops out of a State which had withdrawn from the Union.
And then there's the ignorant fink's "This was followed by the southern army marching on Washington and engaging in a battle at Bull Run."
Wikipedia:
How do you know when the fink is lying? It's any time there are words following his handle and the date.
...Need I mention that Manassas is INSIDE VIRGINIA?
Need I mention that Virginia is INSIDE THE UNITED STATES?
It wasn't after Virginia seceded.
And, again, The Finks's ignorant lie was, "This was followed by the southern army marching on Washington and engaging in a battle at Bull Run."
No, the US Army marched INTO VIRGINIA TOWARDS RICHMOND.
That presumes that the secession was valid. Something that was disputed at the time.
Virginia never seceded. It certainly mouthed some words to that effect, but they were no more legally relevant than the declarations of CHOP loons in Seattle last summer.
Of course, secession lacks any constitutional basis.
Brett Bellmore: "threatening the port of Charleston"
Really? Fort Sumter threatened nothing. The insurrectionists could level the fort anytime they chose within hours (as they did). Funny how that Ol' Lost Cause mentality always seems to lead to exaggerated statements like this.
Also: The first military actions against the U.S. government by the Southern traitors occurred months before the final assault on Sumter. The rebellion acted militarily from the very begining, seizing federal property & facilities by force long before Lincoln assumed the presidency.
Of course I'm sure a Lost Cause-type will say that military action doesn't count because .............
"It certainly does not deserve a serious review, serious consideration and any other fate than disposal in the nearest circular file."
That's a disrespectful way to dispose of a book by a Harvard Law professor - an instructor at one of our finest liberal/libertarian institutions of higher education (almost as good as Evergreen).
Address the book on the merits or lack thereof...and who better to address the merits than Sean Wilentz, who teaches history at another distinguished liberal/libertarian school - Princeton (which is a great school despite having previously been defiled by some white male Founding Fathers).
The book makes complete sense. If you want to advance the thesis that the entire current constitutional order is fundamentally illegitimate and the whole concept of rights it embodies is fundamentally based around the right to own a slave, and the whole thing needs to be overthrown to put thjngs right, what could possibly better embody that thesis than the idea that Jefferson Davis’ view of the original constitution was exactly what it was and Lincoln’s overthrow of it through violent revolution is therefore what we ourselves should be emulating?
That was my take. I read the first few paragraphs and thought it an odd position for a Harvard ivory tower type.
Then it suddenly occured to me this was more effort to poison the origins of the United States, for simple contemporary political reasons.
Far from being an apologist for the South, the usual stance of those with similar positions the South did no wrong Constitutionally, his attack is the nation as a whole, not the rotten southern half before the Civil War.
In my more cynical moments, I want people like him to get everything they want. Wave away the Constitution and its design to make it hard for government to grow its own power, at its own whim, and just see what happens after 50 years.
I won't be here, as won't most of you. But we have ample examples from history. It won't be good. And don't say "But Europa Europa!" With the US with a big arm on their shoulder, they do not stray down that path, either.
Pointing out that Lincoln trashed the Founders' Constitution is not an "attack is(sic) the nation as a whole". It also has the advantage of being true.
I'm fine conquering slave states. I am also fine conquering states splitting off under the arrogant notion they can drag a large segment of the people out from under the Constitution.
This applies up through today. The idea 51% can drag 49% away from the Constitution is criminal, dictatorial behavior.
I see from your other comments that you agree Jefferson Davis was right, and the basis of your disagreement is the opposite of Professor Feldman’s. Rather than seeing Lincoln’s alleged willingness to overthrow the written constitution as something to emulate, you see it as something to castigate.
Let me just say this. The 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments ratified not just Lincoln’s but most of the Radical Republicans’ view of things. So regardless of who was right before, the country as a whole adopted Lincoln’s view after, including Lincoln’s view of the inviolability of the Union and federal legal supremacy and the subordination of a state’s military and judiciary to the Federal government,. While states retained a residual sovereignty, self-government, powers, and rights, the balance was reset with them having considerably less than they did before. This is so regardless of how expansive one thinks their rights before were. Everyone agrees, for example, that before the Civil War slavery was legal and the Bill of Rights didn’t apply to the ststes at all, with the federal government hardly ever interfering in relations between states and their inhabitants. Everybody agrees that after the Civil War, slavery was abolished, the new amendments gave the people a considerable set of rights against the states (whatever their exact scope) enforcable through the Federal judiciary and ultimately federal military power, and gave the federal government a basis for interfering with states rather frequently.
"The Harvard law professor downplays and even omits material that does not support his thesis."
Sounds like Harvard professors - - - - - - - - - -
Sounds like all originalists.
You're familiar with the work of many Harvard professors. Is that right?
"The better answer is that Davis and Taney were wrong, and Lincoln was right"
Is it 'better' because it's right, or is it 'better' because the implications of Lincoln being wrong are bad?
I mean, sure, the 1619 project is wrong in portraying the Constitution as all in on slavery. It did have that provision allowing the importation of slaves to be halted, and the 3/5ths clause reducing the political strength of slave states in the House.
But it was a mixed bag, as the Constitution, while avoiding direct mention of slavery, did accommodate it.
"No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due."
However, the real constitutional divide here is NOT on the question of slavery. It's on the question of secession. And you can have a proper hatred of the institution of slavery and still think secession constitutional.
The war was also about secession, and that issue has also been decided.
It doesn't help that the reasons folks have for seceding tend to be inchoate partisanship weakly attached to whatever outrage is on the TV today.
It's only been decided until the next time. Trial by combat has no normative implications.
Sure it does. Ask the Native Americans.
They're going to tell me that the Palefaces were right to kill their forefathers because the Palefaces won?
Your brain is broken.
Right? Not sure you want to bring morality into your analysis of the South in the Civil War.
I was kindly talking about true. But if you want to argue the South was right...well, fuck off slaver.
the 3/5ths clause reducing the political strength of slave states in the House.
Or, alternatively, granting the slave states disproportionate power in the House. Or do you think that southern congressmen were representing the interests of the slaves, even in theory?
Can you, off hand, think of any other group of people, lacking the vote, who didn't fully count towards representation? Women? Children? Nope, 5/5ths. "Indians not taxed" didn't count, but that's because they were citizens of different sovereign nations, not of the US.
Only slaves counted for just 3/5ths, they'd have fully counted just like everybody else, if not for that clause.
Would 0/5ths have been better? Sure. That's why it was the 3/5ths compromise.
Right - the Constitutional recognition of compromise with slaveholders is what people cite this clause for these days.
But it WAS a compromise, not a straight capitulation on the part of the free states.
Going in, the free states wanted the slaves counted not at all, and the slave states wanted them counted in full.
Had the slave states gotten everything they wanted on that point, they would have had an unbreakable lock on the House of Representatives all the way up to the 1860s and there would have been no civil war because the abolition of slavery at the federal level would have been impossible.
I don't get your point. It's not offered as an example of capitulation, it's offered as an example of how much America treated with slavers and slavery in it's founding document,
We did what we could to bleed all of that blood out of us, but then we screwed up reconstruction, and the following century really showed we did not. Civil War as tragedy, not noble cause etc. etc.
"It's not offered as an example of capitulation, it's offered as an example of how much America treated with slavers and slavery in it's founding document,"
That is not how people like the 1619 Project treat it. They rip away historical context and argue it would have been better for the United States to have been an infanticide, and easily digested by Great Britain, because the northern states should have refused union with more populous southern states because the latter insisted on slavery.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
The 1619 project does not argue against America's founding, it just points out how much slavery is a vital part of that founding.
It's telling you cannot tell the difference.
This is why so many people call you Gaslighto.
Honestly, who the fuck cares about the 1619 project? I'm a big liberal whackjob from the big liberal city and I'm even a big evil Jew, and I haven't read and I don't care, and I don't see how it's a defense.
That's the No True Scotsman fallacy.
It's not, I'm asking who the fuck actually cares about the 1619 project? From what I see here, it's only conservative posters.
You are the one saying it has any relevancy based upon the presumed assumption that liberals actually care about it so maybe think on it a bit
From Bernard above,
No, it was a significant reduction from what the slave states wanted.
And yet still disproportionate.
What I hear people citing this clause for is how it degraded the humanity of the slaves by counting them as only three-fifths of a person--as if it would have been better to count them as five-fifths of a person. Sure, the voting power of the slaveholders in the House of Representatives would have been strengthened, but the human dignity of the slaves would have been acknowledged. Or something.
Yeah, that's facile.
But the clause is still monstrous, wouldn't you say?
No, because the alternatives were (1) adopt no constitution at all and remain under the Articles, or (2) have seats in the House apportioned on the basis of population alone. (The Convention wasn't about to have them apportioned on the basis of the number of free inhabitants. And even if, per impossibile, that were to have happened, the South wouldn't have ratified the new constitution.)
Right...the Constitution had this awful clause because it was, in this respect at least, a creature of an awful time.
The one thing it wasn't, was denigrating the humanity of the slaves. As if they were going to otherwise have voting rights. As if they'd have been better off if the Southern states had more votes in the House.
Do you think the Representatives from California represent the interests of the illegal aliens that work the fields and sweat houses? Of course they do; that’s why they are counted on the census. The northern states wanted not to count the slaves at all and the southern states wanted to count them full as any other people. I remember some northern politician arguing that he should be able to count his cattle if the south could count their slaves. Some people get the wrong impression that this was a statement on the personhood of slaves, but it was just the north not wanting to share power with the south.
But the south never even attempted to litigate the question of whether states could secede, they went straight to armed rebellion, and there is no question that suppression of rebellion was legal under the constitution.
As to the legal question of secession, it took an act of Congress to admit a state, usually it takes an act of Congress to reverse a prior act unless their is a sunset provision.
And Texas did have a legal right to secede, why didn’t SC negotiate similar terms when they ratified the constitution and joined the union?
Litigating the question of secession would have been an acknowledgement that the courts of the United States had jurisdiction to decide the issue, which they only would have is the seceding states were still in the Union. Slovenia and Croatia didn't litigate over their right to secede from the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
No, they settled it the same way we did, but with the opposite result.
Exactly my point.
If they had the lawful right to secede, there's nothing wrong with that. It would have meant that they couldn't do so instantaneously, but they could've done it. Slovenia and Croatia didn't litigate because, like the southern traitors, they knew they didn't have the lawful right to do it, so litigation wouldn't have worked.
Texas didn't have any right to secede. As for South Carolina negotiating the right to secede, that wasn't an option. The state of New York considered reserving the right to secede unless the Constitution was amended to add a bill of rights. James Madison shot that idea down:
(“Viciate” means “invalidate;” the modern spelling is “vitiate.”)
Source: https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Hamilton/01-05-02-0012-0086
I have no use for slavery, but Davis was certainly right from a textual perspective that states have a right to secede. Since the question is not addressed in the Constitution, the 10th Amendment denies any federal power over the question.
jdgalt1: 10th Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." So the question is: Is secession from the Union a "power . . . reserved to the states respectively . . . ."?
If the Constitution had been made by agreement among the 13 States, perhaps that could imply that States could withdraw from the Union although nothing in the Constitution says so. But The Constitution was not made by the individual States but by the People of all the States. The Preamble says:
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." The Constitution --- made by the People -- was ratified by the people of all 13 States, not by the State legislatures.
Perhaps under the 10th Amendment the "people of the United States" could have agreed to a separation of the slave states from the free states, but the unilateral actions by the governments of some of the slave-holding states to secede from the Union cannot be justified by the 10th Amendment or any other provision of the Constitution.
The States were sovereign and sovereign States have the inherent right to withdraw from agreements. That the agreement between them did not explicitly deny them this right is proof enough that it was retained.
The idea that the method chosen -- conventions -- to extingush The Perpetual Aricles of Confederation, in contravention to its provisions in any way extinguished State sovereignty is ahistorical nonsense.
The states were not sovereign and even if they were that would not give them a right to unilaterally withdraw from anything. When one enters into a formal agreement, one is bound by it unless all parties to the agreement decide otherwise. (They can decide otherwise by releasing a party, or by including in the agreement itself a way to withdraw.)
It was We the People, not We the States, that formed the constitution.
Again, that claim is just ignorant.
Also, as I already pointed out the dissolution of the Perpetual(!) Articles of Confederation was NOT on accord with its provisions for modification. Sauce for goose, sauce for gander.
I'm not aware of any provision of the Articles of Confederation that was violated by adopting the Constitution.
Exactly this.
Does sovereign immunity mean you can sue the government of the state you live in, but not its people as a whole?
Was union of the United Somethings determined by unanimous agreement among the people living in the states at that time? (I think it was not called the United Peoples, but maybe my history books are wrong.)
Should we go back to the Roman approach to incorporation, where the union is legally dissolved once any member dies?
"When one enters into a formal agreement, one is bound by it unless all parties to the agreement decide otherwise. (They can decide otherwise by releasing a party, or by including in the agreement itself a way to withdraw.)"
Not very familiar with breach of contract law, I see.
"It was We the People, not We the States, that formed the constitution."
Not familiar with how the constitution was ratified? It was the States. See also Federalist 39.
Well, the Supreme Court in 1869 disagreed with you and so did Justice Antonin Scalia in 2006. Pretty hard road to say that there is a unilateral right to secession, despite every binding authority that has been brought to bear on the subject disagrees with you (including the full weight of the U.S. government in 1861-1865), as does the most prominent "originalist" thinker of his (recent) time. As Scalia put it, "if there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede." And that makes sense for all sorts of practical reasons. A state, or a portion thereof, can't jump in and out unilaterally.
"As Scalia put it, "if there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede.""
That's fine: There were no constitutional issues resolved by the Civil war. Killing people doesn't actually settle arguments, it only drives them underground for so long as people remain convinced you'll kill them.
Killing people doesn't actually settle arguments
Sounds like you want to abolish the police!
What things "sound like" to your broken brain is of no interest to anyone.
Anyone who clings to the historically untrue-and thoroughly immoral-doctrine that, 'violence never settles anything' I would advise to conjure the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it.
The only "binding authority" that mattered was the balance of the armies, Army of the Potomac vs Army of N. Virginia, etc. That settled the ability to secede, not the right to, and why I should defer to a government functionary like Scalia on this point when I am perfectly capable of judging the evidence myself I cannot imagine. Feel free to sheeple, yourself, however.
The question is addressed in the Constitution, both textually and structurally. There was never a right to secede, so it couldn't have been "reserved" to the states.
There is no such text.
Because there's not such right or power.
It'd be pretty impractical to just list every power and right that doesn't exist, you see.
Not at all. See article 1 section 10.
I'm quite sure this is not a list of every power and right that doesn't exist.
No - just the ones that the States are barred from doing by the US Constitution.
There is no example of that list being exhaustive.
But are states in fact barred from doing any of the things listed in article 1 section 10? In the comment I am replying to, you say that they are, but in other comments you claim that states are free to do any of the things listed in that section as long as they pass a secession resolution first.
And the requirement that they pass a secession resolution first is your invention. If I may quote your own argument below back at you: “No mention of secession or withdrawal is there [in the Constitution].” If the framers wanted to require states to pass secession resolutions before undertaking any of the activities listed in article 1 section 10, “These framers were surely intelligent enough to include that [requirement] if they meant to.” If states can ignore the prohibitions in Article 1 section 10 after passing a secession resolution, surely they can ignore these provisions without passing a secession resolution because the requirement to pass a secession resolution has no Constitutional basis.
The framers could have written:
You shan't coin money with a mouse.
You shan't coin money in a house.
You shan't coin money with a goat.
You shan't coin money on a boat.
You shan't coin money in the rain.
You shan't coin money on a train.
You shan't coin money if you secede.
You shan't coin money at all, indeed!
However, the actual language of the Constitution is sufficient to prohibit states from coining money. The framers didn't need to provide examples of situations in which states are prohibited from coining money in order to convey that states are prohibited from coining money under all circumstances.
Ok, but the prohibition on coining money only applies to states that are part of the United States. So, one day, a state or whatever the political entity it calls itself, is not part of the union, and it can coin money. Then the next day it joins the union (by its own voluntary act, originally, as explained in Federalist 39). Now, it can't coin money any more. But there are ostensibly benefits to being part of that voluntary union too, chiefly a common defense and free interstate trade.
Most of the states of the confederacy did not join the union by their own voluntary acts.
jdgalt, You are correct and furthermore note that Article 1, Section 10 of the constitution lists the things that states are not allowed ot do, which everyone agreed upon. No mention of secession or withdrawal is there, which means that it's not prohibited. These framers were surely intelligent enough to include that if they meant to.
James Madison made a point to mention in Federalist 39 that it was the States who ratified the constitution, not one mass of "people" and that they were only to be bound to ratification by their own voluntary act. Three of the States mentioned in their ratifying documents that they had the right to "reassume" all delegated powers.
Really, the idea that the very people who declared independence from Great Britain and fought an 8 year war to secure that independence, would then turn around and form a government from which there is no escape, is absurd.
If it was in fact a "War Between the States," with a bunch of independent states in the north versus a bunch of independent states in the south, then the situation would have been governed by the law of nations. The sources recognized at the time by Americans (Grotius, Pufendorf, Vattel) agreed that a war had to be just to be lawful.
A just war would include a war to promote justice, but even if we stipulate slavery as a necessary evil in some cases, this isn't the same thing as saying it's just to fight a war to perpetuate and extend slavery (which is what the Confederacy did).
As for wars of self-defense, that's so tied up in the slavery issue I find it different to differentiate them. The Confederacy wouldn't have set up a separate country which needed to be defended if they weren't trying to perpetuate and extend slavery, so the self-defense argument is folded into the argument about the justice of perpetuating and extending slavery.
In short, an unjust war on the Confederacy's part.
Hence contrary to the law of nations.
This cartoon is always appropriate, except at some of our more humorless workplaces:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/dc/86/34/dc8634e6e1dbdfec72c6440149175c0f.jpg
Appropriate to what? It's only marginally funny, and that little only as an irreverent juxtaposition of "Lost Cause" nonsense with "Big Johnson" double entendre.
How about this guy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Johnson_(cinematographer)
"So much of the modern progressive project depends on the original Constitution being a failed, sinful document"
And so much of our vestigial conservative project depends on wide-ranging bigotry (targeting gays, Muslims, Blacks, women, agnostics, Jews, immigrants, and others), childish superstition, science-disdaining ignorance, backwater disaffectedness, and pining for good old days that never existed.
Where is the hope for America?
(Spoiler: The great American liberal-libertarian mainstream will continue to prevail and continue to improve our society.)
Spoiler: The Asshole's link is to a YouTube video of no relevance to anything.
"The great American liberal-libertarian mainstream"
So who is part of the mainstream: Wilentz, on the one hand, or Feldman and pink-hair 1619 lady, on the other?
The mainstream leads to Biden as President, so there's that.
https://twitter.com/RubinReport/status/1454478855167614984
You guys must like the taste of the sole of my shoe. I will figuratively walk on your tongues until you are replaced; after that, I will dance on your political graves.
And make sure people know right-wingers are bigots with adult-onset superstition every step of the way.
The Asshole speaketh with great force and apparently great confidence, but it's a fart for all that.
"So who is part of the mainstream: Wilentz, on the one hand, or Feldman and pink-hair 1619 lady, on the other?"
I do not know. I do not much care.
I do know which Americans have won the culture war, and which Americans are sore, whining losers.
Bigoted, superstitious clingers hardest hit, as always.
And yet you didn't win in VA, and Biden/Harris are spiraling into Jimmy Carter realms of irrelevance.
You need to get your nose out of old rock music videos and join us in this century, Asshole.
I commend to your attention Sean Wilentz's book "No Property In Man: Slavery and Antislavery at the Nation's Founding." He argues persuasively that it is no accident that the Constitution does not contain the word "slave" or "slavery". (That is, before the 13th Amendment!)
Yes. And from reading Prof. Blackman's post, one would not realize that there was a longstanding debate about the nature of the constitution. William Garrison described the constitution as a pro-slavery "covenant with death" and "an agreement with Hell." Frederick Douglass in contrast called the constitution a "glorious liberty document," and pointed out what you cite Wilentz as noting: that the constitution does not once mention slavery. Proto-libertarian Lysander Spooner was on Douglass's side.
It was pretty clear the founding fathers envisioned the end of slavery and found it disturbing, hence the importation ban, and the 3/5’s compromise to reduce slave state representation (after all they fully counted women and they couldn’t vote either).
But everyone realized it wasn’t something that could be settled at the founding, it was contentious enough as it was, and unfortunately it was later proved that it couldn’t be settled without bloodshed.
But it is a little rich for latter day southern sympathizers to acknowledge they started the fight, then complain the union continued the fight until they won. It’s like a little guy starting a bar fight with a sucker punch then complaining that the bigger guy got up off the floor and kicked your ass.
I have a lot of admiration for Southern patriotism, but not much sympathy for sore losers, and I speak as someone who’s ancestors fought for the south, and in the revolutionary war.
No, that's not pretty clear.
Madison didn't think that. And Jefferson wrote contradictory stuff all over the map on the issue.
And I don't much like a patriotism that's regional above national. That's how we got into this mess in the first place.
Sarcastr0 : And Jefferson wrote contradictory stuff all over the map on the issue.
It's fair to consider all of Jefferson's hemming & hawing on slavery. I'm sure much of it was partially sincere. But here's the thing to remember: Near the end of his life in 1819 Jefferson was still driven to rage over the limits to slavery's expansion found in the Missouri Compromise.
All of it could be sincere. Guilt is funny like that.
Jefferson and Madison both flip-flopped after the signing of the Constitution to become more anti-Federalist because of slavery.
Washington, to his credit, did not. Though he still kept slaves, so...boo.
Could it be both who were wrong?
Hack v. Hack. Let me stick some popcorn in the microwave.
A critic of Lincoln summarized things thusly:
When people come to see the facts of what Lincoln, “our greatest President ever”, actually did during his time in office they are generally stunned. The textbook history of Lincoln is irrefutably one of the most vast and well-orchestrated examples of pure propaganda in world history.
To summarize, he won election with 39% of the popular vote, said in his first inaugural address that he had no purpose and no inclination to free the slaves, voiced support for an amendment that would have enshrined slavery in the constitution and “would make it express and irrevocable”, but warned the seceded States that he would invade if necessary to collect taxes. Weeks later he sent an invasion force into Charleston harbor which provoked the firing on Ft Sumter by Southern forces and he used this as an excuse for war, although his entire cabinet had told him that his actions were an inauguration of war. He marched troops from Massachusetts into Baltimore and had any members of the Maryland legislature whom he suspected of “disloyalty”arrested.
His troops ousted State governments in States such as Missouri and later he used military forces to secure re-election for himself and his cronies. He unilaterally called for 75,000 troops to invade the South, a foreign country by that time, without consent of the people through their elected representatives in Congress. He unilaterally suspended the writ of habeas corpus and when the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court advised him that only Congress had this power, he swore out an arrest warrant for the Chief Justice. He had communication lines tapped illegally, shut down over 300 Northern newspapers and jailed the owners for printing articles that called his actions into question. He arrested, jailed and exiled an Ohio Congressman for the same reason. His troops rounded up and jailed over 30,000 “political prisoners” during the war.
Three times during the war he offered the South protection of slavery in exchange for their return to the union. He illegally issued an executive order known as the “emancipation proclamation” which ostensibly “freed” slaves in the seceded States while leaving slavery fully intact in the union. That proclamation freed nobody and Lincoln admitted that it had no basis in law, but was “a war measure”. He illegally admitted West Virginia into the union as a slave State during the war. He approved and oversaw a war against Southern civilians throughout the South approving of non-military targets being destroyed, crops burned, women and children left homeless as his troops plundered, raped, pillaged and robbed these people. All of this, as Lincoln said many times, was for money and power, which he craftily referred to as “saving the union”.
If you believe that his actions, his war and his victory do not effect you today, 160 years later, think again. Lincoln’s presidency upended the constitution, set into place an arbitrary and unrestrained government, destroyed the American rule of law, cemented into place the supremacy of federal power and paved the way for the never ending “progressive era”. Lincoln is the architect of our modern government and its ever-increasing and continual slouch to the Jacobin left. He laid the foundation for the horrendous political mess we have today.
You won’t find any of this in your child’s government school, private school or likely even their home school textbook. There’s a reason for that. A lie repeated often enough becomes “truth” in the minds of the unsuspecting.
Okay, so that critic is a stupid, dishonest, evil person. What's your point?
I don't know, seems like there's at least a few good points and under-appreciated facts in there. It's hard to deny that the popular culture myth of Lincoln today, such what you might see touted by some Republicans and Trumpists, is rather at odds with what Lincoln actually thought and said and did. What's your opinion of Lincoln? Are you a "greatest president EVER!" Lincoln cultist, or more neutral?
M L : "...at least a few good points and under-appreciated facts in there.."
You often find a few plant seeds in a reeking pile of manure. Maybe if you ignore the stench, comb them out and then give'em lots of careful attention, something comes of it. Perhaps that's what you see here; I just see nonsense, ignorance & lies.
As for Lincoln, I admit my opinion is colored by Shelby Foote's Civil War history. He has a habit of linking accounts of Mr. Lincoln & Mr. Davis throughout his three volumes, and you're repeated impressed with what a small, petty and trite figure Davis was compared to his opponent.
As for Lincoln's so-called tyranny, I just keep asking people for a counterexample. Here was a leader facing a bloody rebellion within the borders of his country. His capitol & seat of government was actually sandwiched between treasonous armies to the south and slave states to the north. The forces of the traitors were never more than a few days march from the White House. Within his own lines there was vicious opposition to his government, both from other political parties and large sections of the population who sympathized with the insurrection.
What leader who facing anything remotely similar followed the constitution bounds of his office to Lincoln degree? Hell, just name a ruler who permitted a vigorously-fought free & fair election with anything like the carnage of 1864 occurring within his country. After all, we just watched Trump try to sabotage a presidential election due to his childish snit over losing. Image all the damage Lincoln could have done if he wasn't deeply committed to shepherding the rule of law through an almost impossible situation. The man was a damn saint.
Yeah, the logic of this would render America illegitimate, as a result from an illegal civil war against Britain. And the founding of Germany? Right out.
It's special pleading that if taken seriously is a broad-spectrum condemnation of history.
Well, he wasn't a saint, and that seems to be the kernel behind the prior comment: Lincoln wasn't perfect; indeed, he was a politician. Therefore, portrayals of him as a great president are just propaganda.
But the conclusion doesn't follow from those two premises, and in any case, the argument is a bad faith one, because the actual conclusion that the person wants people to reach is, "Therefore, the South was right." And that really doesn't follow.
I agree that "compared to what?" is a good question. Really that's a good catch-all response to all sorts of wild claims that people make these days.
It seems to me, if you try and set aside the personalizing and moralizing, you may be left with some semblance of an objective fact. And that is this. There are folks that are of an opinion and persuasion that more centralization of government is a good thing. More interventionism and globalism. Or just more government regulation of society generally. Whether they are neocons, socialists, communal types, whatever. Then there are others who disagree and think that decentralization and less government is better. If you assume there is something like a balanced accounting of Lincoln on the table, the former group is naturally going to be more inclined to be impressed by Lincoln and favorably disposed to his legacy, and quite reasonably so if you accept for the sake of argument their starting premises. The opposite is true for the latter group.
Carl Jones, chief of Heritage Operations for Sons of Confederate Veterans.
Nice.
America as illegitimate since the Civil War is a new level of Lost Cause bullshit.
Congrats.
I read this a couple of days ago, and I've been pondering whether to submit something. I can't resist. For the last several years, some very fine historians, like Gordon Wood, and some very bad historians, like Sean Wilentz have been trying to cover the U.S.'s culpability in slavery by making the argument that the Constitution was really an anti-slavery document. Nonsense. I don't agree with Noah Feldman about much, and I agree with the 1619 Project even less, but both are right--as was Jefferson Davis--that the Constitution protected slavery. The mere fact that the founders didn't have the balls to use the word "slave", or that they gave the congress the option of ending the slave trade in 20 years, doesn't erase that. Justice Taney--whom you remember was in the majority on the Amistad case--certainly recognized it, even if his reasoning is terribly racist and morally wrong. We can walk and chew gum at the same time in this country. At least we used to be able to. Something can be morally wrong and perfectly legal at the same time. Roe v Wade anyone? Listening to Josh on this is a bit like listening to Ilya on secession. If secession was treason, why wasn't anyone in the Confederacy ever tried for treason? The reason is that the government knew it would lose, which would call the entire Union war effort into question. The civil war settled both the question of secession and slavery by force of arms, though it is worth remembering that took a constititutional amendment to turn the constitution into an anti-slavery document. It is useless to put a legal or constitutional veneer over the winning side's positions that moves beyond that reality.