State Attorneys General File Suit Against OSHA Vaccine Mandate

Red states in blue circuits look elsewhere.

So far, there have been four primary suits filed by Attorneys General agains the OSHA vaccine mandate.

First, Missouri filed in the Eighth Circuit, joined by several other states located in the Eighth Circuit, including Nebraska, Arkansas, Iowa, North Dakota, and South Dakota. This suit was also joined by red states in blue circuits: 1st Circuit (New Hampshire), Ninth Circuit (Arizona, Montana, and Alaska), and Tenth Circuit (Wyoming).

Second, Kentucky filed in the Sixth Circuit, joined by two other states located in the Sixth Circuit: Ohio and Tennessee. West Virginia joined from the Fourth Circuit, Idaho joined from the Ninth Circuit, and Oklahoma joined from the Tenth Circuit.

Third, Texas filed suit in the Fifth Circuit, joined by Louisiana and Mississippi. In addition, South Carolina from the Fourth Circuit, and Utah from the Tenth Circuit tagged along.

Fourth, Florida filed suit in the Eleventh Circuit, joined by Georgia and Alabama.

None of the red states in the First, Fourth, Ninth, and Tenth Circuits filed suits at home.

Each of these states will get a single entry in the circuit court lottery.

Comments

[tylertusta]

Looks like the Republican-run states have coordinated this well.

The problem is that all it takes is one business to file suit in a blue circuit to give them a ticket, too.

[Michael P]

Who would such a business sue, and what relief would they seek? I don't think the Anti-Injunction Act authorizes a "blue state" court to issue a permission slip called an anti-injunction.

[Noscitur a sociis]

But the challengers only need to win once to stop the program from going into effect.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

I think the point is just to trick dummies into getting vaxxed because the worst should be behind us by January 2022. So the data is very clear now that the Delta variant has smoothed out the data and it is clear vaxxes work, masks work, and obviously lockdowns work!

So take any logical grouping of states and if one of the states happened to have a Democrat governor that allowed public health officials to do their jobs and promoted the vaccines then that state has a significantly lower death rate than its neighbors. So in the SE North Carolina has the lowest death rate and among the 3 states in last place in everything (AL, MS, LA) Louisiana has the lowest death rate even though it was in the initial wave and it had 2 insane hurricane seasons and it was in the deep freeze. Bottom line—a governor like DeathSantis that bashed science and Fauci has 15,000 excess deaths on his hands compared to Cooper in NC…and NC hasn’t even done anything draconian in 2021!?! Was it really worth an extra 15,000 deaths in Florida and tens of thousands in other red states just to have petty tribal squabbles under the pretext of FREEDOM?? That’s more like FREEDUMB!

[Don Nico]

"because the worst should be behind us"
You have no evidential basis to make that statement. It was just what Israelis thought before the huge surge in breakthrough cases.
When all you look at is US data preselected by your political prejudices, you can easily come to baseless conclusions.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

We learned from Israel because they got hit by Delta just as Pfizer protection waned and so we got people a booster before Delta hit. So what happened in Israel didn’t happen in America because the median age of death actually declined in Florida during Delta which means the unvaxxed were dying.

Berenson was on Clay and Buck today and you could hear all of them sweating through the radio and they are praying that the NEC has a Delta surge and many die because that will vindicate them and it means they did just kill a lot of people in the southeast with crappy analysis. But guess what—NC has the lowest death rate so we know what works and the NEC has higher vax rates than NC.

[Don Nico]

SC,
I seldom use this word but
"and so we got people a booster before Delta hit."
is an outright lie. Delta was dominant in the US long before there was any significant booster program in the US. I doubt that you have seriously studied the raw data from Israel. Where Delta became dominant a coule of months after it was dominant in the US.
I hate to say it but I see you are misstating the facts to make a political point.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

Pfizer protection wanes so the timing issue wasn’t just about Delta but waning right when Delta hit…so Israel got very unlucky while Delta started emerging in America before Pfizer waned and then we could get people booster.

Check out these liberal county death rates in the red states. So these counties have mask mandates unlike the conservative counties in these states. GA death rate is 266 Fulton and Gwinnett are liberal counties of ATL metro and the death rates are 168 and 157. SC is 269 and Charleston is 175. FL is 278 and Orange County of Orlando metro is 157. Pretty amazing how much of a difference masking makes.

[Don Nico]

I see that you had no reply to my identifying your falsehood. Delta appeared in the US in March when those vaccinated had fresh immunity. It appeared in Israel in midto late june when immunity was waning in the 4roughly 40% of the population that were immunized before before March.
I really don't give a shit about comparing red and blue states. My concer is about misinformation regarding SARS-Cov-2, and you are spreading just that.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

Yeah, you should be concerned about me spreading disinformation and not about DeathSantis spreading disinformation because I’m more important than he is and I reach a bigger audience. 😉

[Don Nico]

Again, you just duck a substantive comment by resorting to partisan banter.
Enjoy living in your bubble

[Sebastian Cremmington]

Sure.

[Don Nico]

To quote you.
"Deflect, deflect, deflect."

[Sebastian Cremmington]

Omg, you always have to have the last word!

[Jason Cavanaugh]

Here's a novel idea: Maybe you shouldn't be spreading bullshit either.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

Orange County in Florida has a relatively low death rate and its leaders defied DeathSantis with public health mitigation measures…I guess it hasn’t gone through Covid season. 😉

[Sebastian Cremmington]

Texas 248 and Travis county with Austin is….113. Berenson and DeathSantis are getting people killed. It’s crazy!

[Joe_dallas]

Sebastian Cremmington
November.5.2021 at 9:19 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
Texas 248 and Travis county with Austin is….113. Berenson and DeathSantis are getting people killed. It’s crazy!"

Cremmington - you continue to demonstrate a complete misunderstanding of the relevant data

Travis county (austin, TX ) has only 6.7% of their population over age 65, The texas population over age 65 is approx 14%. In summary, the death rate by age is remarkably close.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

Maine has the oldest population and a death rate of 90. Elderly people can social distance and get the vaccines which is why during Florida’s Delta surge median age actually declined.

[bevis the lumberjack]

Comparing Maine and Texas is silly. There is a huge difference in population density. It's not social distancing. It's just distance.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

My point is about the asinine statistic of “age adjusted death rate”. I’ve already explained the big factors in death rate numerous times and age of state isn’t a big factor. The 3 big factors are 1: was the state in the initial wave
2: could the state restrict travel
3: does the state have a Republican or Democrat governor because states with Democrat governors in logically grouped states have significantly lower death rates than states with Republicans.

[MollyGodiva]

Of course they did because if there is no covid prevention measure that Rs will not fight. The death cult marches on.

[Don Nico]

"The death cult marches on."
That is just partisan slander, Molly. Why not say something substantive

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

The virus-flouting stupidity has been partisan, too. Backwater Republicans constitute the antisocial, ignorant, superstitious side of this one.

The clinger position deserves no respect or anything other than scorn.

[bevis the lumberjack]

And blacks and police officers unions.

But Art only blames the people that he hates. He doesn’t know them, but he hates them all the same. Call that what you will.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Police unions deserve excoriation for virus-flouting belligerence that risks the lives of police officers and the public they ostensibly serve.

The manner in which America has treated Black Americans -- particularly with respect to medical issues -- should incline our society to work hard to overcome historically rooted hesitancy with education and persuasive effort.

I was raised among the clingers, in a bigotry-, ignorance-, and superstition-steeped town. I know them far better than most of my current colleagues and neighbors do, and well enough to have an informed opinion about their dysfunction and ugly thinking.

[grb]

I think Molly points to the Right's reinvention as the Pro-Covid Party. Of course that doesn't mean their political leaders actually want the disease to succeed; by all appearance they don't give a damn one way or the other.

But they did think there's political gain selling birtherism-style disinformation about the pandemic. Thus they programed their followers to think the disease isn't serious, its effects are exaggerated, it spread overstated, the recorded deaths from it conspiratorial lies, the measures against it irrelevant, the "secret purposes" behind those measure evil & disingenuous, the public health officials who fight it satanic-grade villains, the true treatments against it secrets hidden from the public, and vaccines developed against it untrustworthy.

They convinced people who've accepted vaccines and mandates their entire lives to become rabidly anti-vaxx. And this was all done for a few percentage points in polling.

The Right has had one unified message throughout the pandemic, and that message supported Covid. They've promoted this message consistently and forcefully, using every means and tactics at their disposal. Who cares about the cynical motives that lay behind this propaganda? They've been the pro-disease party in word, deed, and action.

[Armchair Lawyer]

"I think Molly points to the Right's reinvention as the Pro-Covid Party."

You mean the pro-freedom party?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

What's the next big pro-freedom crusade for Republicans and conservatives?

dismantling stop signs?

eradicating compulsory schooling for nine-year-olds?

erasing center lines on winding roads?

eliminating child labor laws?

bringing back segregated schools, fountains, and lunch counters?

battling crosswalks at school entrances?

ending truth-in-labeling laws?

No wonder Republicans are able to achieve a majority in a national election once every thirty years or so.

I am content.

[grb]

Here's the problem, Armchair : Until your handlers plugged a cable into the port at the base of your skull and downloaded instructions that you must consider vaccines evil and mandates (which you've lived with your entire life) as unconscionable tyranny, "freedom" wasn't a big issue here.

Hell, without your political masters spending months pushing hardcore Pro-Covid agitprop, mandates wouldn't even be necessary. Remember when the pandemic began? We all yearned for a vaccine back then, and anti-vaxx losers were a tiny fringe spread evenly across the ideological spectrum. It took disciplined messaging to convert the entire Right to anti-vaxx loons.

PS: Could you please stop trivializing the word "Freedom"? I'm very fond of it, and would prefer it not be reduced to a child's petulant snit.

PSS: Exactly how "free" are you when your handlers can spin you like a top & change your thoughts with the snap of a finger? A vaccine mandate seems pretty light stuff compared to that slavish servility.

[Creekan]

Biden ridiculed "freedom" so his acolytes do likewise, but here's the riposte:

https://thefederalist.com/2021/01/06/whether-kamala-harris-is-a-plagiarist-or-a-liar-her-fweedom-story-confirms-shes-the-perfect-biden-sidekick/

[Armchair Lawyer]

"Here's the problem, Armchair : Until your handlers plugged a cable into the port at the base of your skull"...

Ha.... that was good for a belly laugh.

"PS: Could you please stop trivializing the word "Freedom"?"

You're so eager to strip people's rights and freedoms away, that you appear to be trivializing it yourself. There's always an emergency, a terrorist attack, a virus, a climate event that "demands" a few more freedoms be sacrificed...

[bevis the lumberjack]

"Could you please stop trivializing the word "Freedom"? I'm very fond of it, and would prefer it not be reduced to a child's petulant snit."

I mean, being forced to do something against your will is the opposite of freedom. You're not as fond of it as you say you are.

And in terms of our overall liberty, from the perspective of someone who hates what both parties have become, the progressive left is a more serious threat to my liberty than the right. And it's not just me - a couple of weeks ago someone did a poll and a slight majority said that as well.

[DaveM]

Well. Anything with a survival rate over 99% among all infected people under the age of 70 (!) hardly needs "programming" in "birtherism-style disinformation".

One just needs to point to the facts and wait for things to dawn on people. Apparently it has never dawned on some.

[grb]

The United States population is about 330 million.

Of that, 15% is over 70 years of age; 85% under. The later category encompasses over 280 million people. Of those, 1% equals 2.8 million human beings.

I'll just point to those facts, DaveM, and see if any common sense "dawns" in your brain.

[Michael P]

"Of that, 15% is over 70 years of age; 85% under."

The Census Bureau says there were 323,100,000 Americans in 2016, of whom 14,260,000 were 75 to 84 and 6,277,000 were 85 or older. That makes 6.4% over 75.

You calculated as if the earlier comment said "survival rate of 99%" rather than "survival rate over 99%". That's innumerate.

[DaveM]

We are speaking of the survival rates of those already INFECTED. The proportion of people 70 and over in the general population is irrelevant to the point.

Of those WHO HAVE COVID, the survival rate is 99%+ unless you are quite elderly.

Yes, go think on that.

[grb]

Another hint to waken the thinking part of your brain, DM: If the effects of Covid are as negligible as you claim, why did your handlers invest so much effort in trying to convince the dumb & dupish that the Covid statistics (mortal & non-mortal) are all lies.

When people lie to you, Dave, they generally have a motive. And, yes, that includes the handlers who tell you what to think.

[DaveM]

I never said they were negligible, I said they were non-fatal to an overwhelming proportion of people who are caught up in it. Entirely unlike many other risks in life, such as getting in your car and driving down the Interstate, where if you are caught up, you can easily be killed.

[bevis the lumberjack]

"But they did think there's political gain selling......disinformation about the pandemic."

You mean like "you can go out and stand shoulder to shoulder with 50,000 people yelling about George Floyd and there will be zero spread"? That kind of misinformation?

[Armchair Lawyer]

"That is just partisan slander, Molly. Why not say something substantive"

Well, because...

[Stephen Lathrop]

That is just partisan slander, Molly.

More like slander of partisans. Of course it is not a death cult. It is just practical politics, aimed at two objectives:

1. To hurt Joe Biden politically.

2. To rehabilitate Trump's disastrous mismanagement of the pandemic, by frustrating public health initiatives which threaten improvements.

It's political warfare. In war, willingness to kill hundreds of thousands may be the price of victory. Lots of folks find that perfectly acceptable. Nothing cultish about it at all.

[DaveM]

It would be nice if people of your opinion were actually informed. It would help your cause immensely. Here's your pop quiz: the Lancet just published a study of the rate of infection by the Delta variant. What percentage of vaccinated were infectious compared to unvaccinated? How did their relative viral loads compare?

This "death cult" you speak of is a myth of your own making. Intelligent people spend the time to get the facts.

[Jason Cavanaugh]

Did you miss the part where only 25% of vaccinated people exposed to COVID in their household contracted the disease, whereas 38% of those who were unvaccinated contracted it from an infectious household member?

Don't pretend that you're the representative of intelligent people, since you clearly ignore facts which destroy your own arguments.

[DaveM]

No I didn't. And what does that tell you? It tells me that trying to stop this by locking people down and forcing them into their households made this worse.

[Jason Cavanaugh]

A conclusion which soundly demonstrates my point that you aren't the intellectual that you believe yourself to be.

You're just another idiot forming an opinion first and then looking for data you wrongly think supports your ignorance.

[Joe_dallas]

Jason Cavanaugh
November.6.2021 at 5:12 am
Flag Comment Mute User
Did you miss the part where only 25% of vaccinated people exposed to COVID in their household contracted the disease, whereas 38% of those who were unvaccinated contracted it from an infectious household member?"

In other words, what you just stated was that the vaccine is not very effective.

[Jason Cavanaugh]

The data overwhelmingly proves otherwise.

Not only are vaccinated people less likely to catch COVID-19, they are also symptomatic and infectious for a much shorter timeframe and far less likely to suffer severe symptoms or death.

The data also shows that disputing these facts makes you a fucking dipshit.

[Joe_dallas]

Jason Cavanaugh
November.6.2021 at 5:12 am
Flag Comment Mute User
Did you miss the part where only 25% of vaccinated people exposed to COVID in their household contracted the disease, whereas 38% of those who were unvaccinated contracted it from an infectious household member?"

Jason Cavanaugh
November.6.2021 at 12:47 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
The data overwhelmingly proves otherwise.

"Not only are vaccinated people less likely to catch COVID-19, they are also symptomatic and infectious for a much shorter timeframe and far less likely to suffer severe symptoms or death.

The data also shows that disputing these facts makes you a fucking dipshit."

Cavanaugh - I was using your data - which disputes the point you made

[Jason Cavanaugh]

No, it does not.

Vaccine facts:
Less likely to catch COVID.
Less likely to suffer symptoms even if you catch COVID.
Less likely to die.
Faster recovery time.
Less time spent being infectious.

Joe_dallas facts:
Reality-denying idiot.

I genuinely don't understand how people like you are so ignorant. Do you need flash cards? Remedial education? Basic education?

Keep your mouth shut on this issue unless someone specifically asks for wrong information.

[Joe_dallas]

your comment is correct for vaccines for the first 5-6 months

Your comment is very uninformed for vaccines after 6 months.
You need to get vastly more up to speed on current developments

[Sarcastr0]

You've been corrected on this at least 4 times that I've seen. And yet it's like you never read any of it.

[Joe_dallas]

Sarcastr0
November.6.2021 at 4:49 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
You've been corrected on this at least 4 times that I've seen. And yet it's like you never read any of it."

right - I have been corrected by people that have not looked at the data in the Israeli study, the current data in MN and the current data published for MD.

The current data shows the effectiveness of the vaccines fades rather rapidly after 6 months. If you want to correct someone, provide a link to the data,

[Commenter_XY]

This must be the legal version of flooding the zone... 🙂

[Commenter_XY]

Ha! Fifth circuit did not disappoint.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Attack Of The Knuckle-Draggers*!

(*The original term has been replaced to comply with the Volokh Conspiracy's partisan, viewpoint-driven censorship code.)

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

If Prof. Vokokh wishes to ease off the pedal a bit with respect to this blog's authoritarian, partisan censorship, he has the address.

(The room where it happened)

[M L]

Why didn't Biden have Congress pass this?

[Michael P]

They get unelected bureaucrats to do these things whenever possible. It lets them run dishonest campaign ads that suggest they didn't support the policies they actually wanted.

[ChrisC]

My guess is that it would get about 40 votes in the senate and 160 votes in the house. That's why.

[Ben_]

Letting the American people have a say in government by way of their elected representatives isn’t Democrats' style.

[Alpheus W Drinkwater]

Says the person who supports the party of voter suppression and blatant gerrymandering.

[Toranth]

Oh, come on!
The Democrats have improved dramatically since the era of Jim Crow and grandfathering. Why, they only actively force the Supreme Court to accept openly partisan gerrymandering in a few states, these days.

[mse326]

This is so stupid just file it in the Supreme Court for original jurisdiction. It's too big a thing to just mess around and we know at least 2 justices would vote yes out of original jurisdiction principles, I think they'd be able to get 2 more based on importance

[mse326]

I should also add it isn't like they can "let it perculate" in the lower courts to get different points of view since it gets condenced into one anyway.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Are perculate and condenced British usage?

[mse326]

You caught me. In typing fast I misspelled some words. Sue me. But make sure you carefully choose which district court to go to.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

No snagging intended. I genuinely wondered whether it might be British usage (similar to offence, for example).

I suppose I could have asked Mick or Keith, but they're touring at the moment.

[Cal Cetín]

Yeah, explain to me again why the Supreme Court can't hear this? I don't mean "because the Supreme Court said," but an argument based on the text, structure & history of the Constitution.

We know the Supreme Court wants to duck cases, except the cases they like - but why should we agree with the Supreme Court's attitude?

[Cal Cetín]

It must be a really sweet job where you get to turn down assignments which don't interest you. Especially assignments from your boss (in this case the American people).

[Cal Cetín]

The weird thing is, you can't say they're ducking these cases out of "judicial modesty" - they're fine issuing groundbreaking decisions when that's what they feel like.

[Noscitur a sociis]

Even under the Supreme Court's construction of its original jurisdiction, they can hear it - they just don't have to hear it.

[Cal Cetín]

Well, then, it's a good thing other courts don't pick up on this.

At least with appeals, Congress lets the Supreme Court pick its cases.

But with original jurisdiction, Congress can't, and didn't, give the Court such discretion, they just seized it.

Just like any court can say "wow, this case is dull, I think I'll skip it."

[Alpheus W Drinkwater]

I believe there are at least two current justices who disagree with this. Or maybe only Justice Thomas.

[Ben_]

If the rule gets upheld, states need an SB8-style law to let anyone sue OSHA officials and anyone enabling OSHA officials or providing any sort of material support or aid to OSHA officials.

Let’s see OSHA enforce their rules without their personnel being able to buy gas or transact any business in any red states.

[grb]

Hilarious. Once the brat child learns what gets attention, you see that learned behavior repeated over and over. Looks like we're going to see anti-constitutional SB8 monstrosities continually from the Right from hence forth - at least until the SCOUS shuts the whole scam down.

Double-irony points for proposing a grotesquely unconstitutional measure to defeat something that's questionable with the very worst take. Your handlers must have really implanted anti-vaxx lunacy deep in your brain, Ben_!

[Ben_]

Wrong. Vaccines are good for most people and I got mine as soon as allowed.

But bullying people is bad and the time to fight back against OSHA bullies and every other big government bullying scheme is always, with all the tools in the toolbox, until they get tired of fighting and fuck off.

And SB8-style laws are unconstitutional in general? How so? OSHA rules that don't directly relate to interstate commerce are unconstitutional if courts can be forced/persuaded to be honest. Honest people should give courts as many opportunities as needed to get it right.

Other types of laws, rules, or incentives to make OSHA's bullying harder should also be enacted ASAP. Make Federal bullies all fly in from blue states every day, give them nowhere to rest in red states, nowhere to buy supplies, no electricity, no fuel, no local law enforcement protection or cooperation, not a single thing.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

" But bullying people is bad "

How do clingers get through a stop-signed intersection without their heads exploding?

[Mark Regan]

The Florida/Georgia petition has the Eleventh Circuit file number 21-13866.

[Cal Cetín]

I don't recognize that number.

Here's a number I recognize:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WTdTwcmxyo

[Sidney r finkel]

It seems to me that the Biden administration should have put an enforcement mechanism in the madate that says that any individual may enforcet the mandate and get a $10,000 per employee award from the employee or employer.

That way the conservative Justices on the Supreme Court could allow the mandate to go into effect and conservative commentators like Prof. Blackman would rejoice and support the administration's actions and all those states fighting the rule would join in supporting it.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

We can continue to trounce the clingers in the culture war without sinking to their level.

[Don Nico]

Sidney, a cutesy but fundamentally stupid comment.

[Toranth]

I think the worst part of SB8 may be the fact that it spawns comments like this on every post, and each time the poster acts as if it were original and witty.

[Sidney r finkel]

Can't claim originality but it was witty.

[Alpheus W Drinkwater]

When you point out others' hypocrisy, they tend not to find it witty.

[Toranth]

Well, you tried and got halfway there.

[DaveM]

Thus is intentional legal warfare. Your courts are being misused by your own government. There is no legitimate expectation that this will survive scrutiny, it's designed to confuse, delay, threaten, and obscure.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

DeathSantis killed more Americans than Osama Bin Laden—it’s a fact. The only reason North Carolina has a significantly lower death rate than the rest of the southeast is because NC just happens to have a Democratic governor that allows public health officials to do their jobs while promoting the vaccines.

[Doug Heffernan]

Me neither. If it's not, it still couldn't be parodied any better than as is.

We might be on the cusp of having two highly effective antivirals. Pfizer's team is barreling to FDA. If this can pan out before winter's end, the anti-vax cohort might not matter as much, even if they are steadfast in their anti-vaxxness and want to stick with ivermectin instead of these new antivirals.

So long as everyone else has access to these new highly effective (and easy to administer) antivirals, that may be the best that can ever happen, accounting for everyone's position.

[Longtobefree]

And there is the answer for mad_kalak

[Joe_dallas]

Sebastian -

Its pretty clear that you dont have a clue to understanding the covid data

Florida cumulative covid deaths are 277 per 100k vs NC 175 per 100k .

Florida has approx 21 % of their population over age 65 while NC only approx 12% over age 65. In other words, FL covid death rate by age is less than NC death rate by age.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

NC didn’t do anything draconian and they avoided the huge Delta spike their neighbors had. This isn’t about freedom…it’s about freedumb.

[Life of Brian]

What would you say to the fact that the Italian Ministry of Health dropped its COVID death tally by 97% by this one simple trick: changing the definition of a fatality to someone who died from COVID rather than with COVID.

That sounded a bit too good to be true, and indeed it turns out that the site that originally ran this story did some research into the original Italian articles and concluded it was satire (search for "stop press" at the bottom).

[Kenneth Almquist]

What would you say to the fact that the Italian Ministry of Health dropped its COVID death tally by 97% by this one simple trick: changing the definition of a fatality to someone who died from COVID rather than with COVID.

I'd say you weren't being truthful. Going to the WorldOMeters site shows that the death toll for Italy is about 130k, not 4k.

The link you provide appears to be describing a study which determined that most of a group of people who died of COVID-19 had other medical conditions. Saying that people who died of COVID “died from COVID rather than with COVID” is dishonest.

There were around 100k excess deaths in Italy during 2020, and only 74k deaths attributed to COVID-19, which suggests that Italy missed a fair number of COVID-19 deaths, particularly in northern Italy during the March-April 2020 time frame:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8322580/

In other words, Italy's numbers are not precise, but the problem is undercounting, not overcounting.

[Jason Cavanaugh]

I'd say it isn't a fact, and you should learn to get your news from a reputable source - you'd look like slightly less of a fool

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/11/05/fact-check-italy-did-not-lower-its-covid-19-death-toll-3-783/6195621001/

[Krayt]

4k people weren't overwhelming intensive care units. 130k* were.

That brute fact rips this argument to shreds.

* Actually, multiples of those two numbers, as only a fraction in the hospitals die.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

Delta has smoothed out the data—Republicans cherry picking and obfuscation the past 18 months has had deadly consequences. I personally had an open mind so I have listened to Berenson…but he turned out to be wrong on pretty much everything. Unfortunately DeathSantis listened to Berenson and then politicized the pandemic and Republicans’ brains are so fried by the right wing echo chamber that they believe DeathSantis has done a good job!?!

[Joe_dallas]

please explain the brilliance of the nortern blue state governors now that the normal winter surge has begun
See Colorado, NY, CT, NJ, MN, WI, MI for example
You will note that northern red states are also starting to see the regular winter surge.

Its called geography and mother nature - Edgar Hopes simpson documented the pandemic trends back 40 years ago with pandemics going back into the 1800's

[Sebastian Cremmington]

Colorado’s governor isn’t anti-science but he is a pussy and he fears the Bucks and Boeberts of his state and so he hasn’t ordered a statewide mask mandate….but Denver has a mask mandate and overall Colorado has a low death rate.

And look at recent deaths—the northern states are not going to experience what Florida experienced…and we know North Carolina didn’t experience what the rest of the SE experienced because it has a governor that isn’t anti-science.

That said, Vermont’s low natural immunity rate is why it is experiencing highs (very low highs because it has a very low death rate overall) because the best thing is for a population to have a good mix of natural immunity and vaxxed immunity and super immunity.

[MatthewSlyfield]

Wisconsin isn't a red state, it's deep purple. Our current Gov is a Democrat, but the prior governor was a Republican and our congressional delegation is split.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

Deflect deflect deflect

[Joe_dallas]

vermont and NH are anomolies

Colorado is bat-stuff crazy with their paranio - much tighter mandates, masking etc.

NC did not have a hard summer surge like FL, southern parts of AL, MS, LA, and souther TX. AS I stated, Edgar Hopes simpson documented the history of pandemic since the 1800's, with minor variations, covid is following the same historical trends that have been known for 150+ years

[Sebastian Cremmington]

All of the states that could restrict travel have low death rates. So Maine is the oldest population state and it has a low death rate and Alaska is a young state with a low rate and Hawaii has the best weather with a low death rate and Puerto Rico even has a low death rate.

So the biggest factors in a state’s death rate are 1–were they in the initial wave
2–could they restrict travel
3-was the governor a Democrat or a Republican
And keep in mind that most of the governors followed public health recommendations through 2020 and so many people that died in 2021 could have been saved had their governor simply ordered mask mandates and encouraged the vaccines.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

GA has a younger population than NC but it has a Republican governor and its death rate is 266. Age adjusted death rate is probably the dumbest statistic anyone has ever come up with Because Maine has the oldest population and its death rate is 89. Keep in mind Florida’s over 65 population is going to be on average the healthiest elderly population of any state because in order to retire to Florida people have to be healthy and wealthy enough to move away from family. Plus in the Delta spike the median age of death declined in Florida because the elderly were vaccinated.

I will gladly reply to any comments you have but just understand I know what I’m talking about.

[Joe_dallas]

Sebastian Cremmington
November.5.2021 at 7:20 pm
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"GA has a younger population than NC but it has a Republican governor and its death rate is 266. Age adjusted death rate is probably the dumbest statistic anyone has ever come up with Because Maine has the oldest population and its death rate is 89. Keep in mind Florida’s over 65 population is going to be on average the healthiest elderly population of any state because in order to retire to Florida people have to be healthy and wealthy enough to move away from family. Plus in the Delta spike the median age of death declined in Florida because the elderly were vaccinated."

"I will gladly reply to any comments you have but just understand I know what I’m talking about."

You comments repetitively demonstrate otherwise

[Joe_dallas]

Geography/seasonality and mother nature is by far the most important factors.
A few points about WI vs FL
FL has approx 20-21% of their population over 65 vs approx 14% in WI,
Fl has approx 277 deaths per 100k vs WI with approx 145 deaths per 100k.

FL being a southern state and consistent the long history of pandemics will typically have a harder summer surge where as WI being a northern state will typically have a smaller summer surge and harder winter surge. The covis surges in both states are consistent with long term history.

WI currently has a lower death rate by age, of approx 20% less in the over 65 age group, That delta will likely go much higher in the winter surge, such that the death rate by age will be very similar

The point being - contrary to Sebastian "blame Republicans" Cremminton" - is that politics and political policies have a very limited impact on the trends. Mother nature controls.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

I guess Orange County in Florida hasn’t gone through Covid season?? Because it has a relatively low death rate because its leaders ordered masks and promoted vaxxes. Such a head scratcher. 😉

[Life of Brian]

There were around 100k excess deaths in Italy during 2020, and only 74k deaths attributed to COVID-19, which suggests that Italy missed a fair number of COVID-19 deaths

Setting aside the question of how rigorous the "excess deaths" methodology was, this assumes that few to no deaths resulted not from COVID itself, but the overreaction to it: the immense disruptions of the lockdowns, foregone medical care, poorer quality of care actually received, increased alcohol and drug use, and so on.

Such an assumption is, of course, nowhere close to reality.

[Sebastian Cremmington]

GA has a younger population than NC…I guess North Carolina hasn’t gone through Covid season yet. 😉