The Volokh Conspiracy
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Meetings with Students (and Others): Better Masked In-Person, or Unmasked by Zoom?
I'm going to be teaching in person for the first time since March 2020 next week, and I expect to have various substantive meetings with students, one-on-one or one-on-three; they will usually be focused on editing text together. The meetings can't be outdoors, because we'll need to discuss material that's displayed on a computer screen (which, in a classroom, would be the large in-room screen). And indoor meetings at UCLA have to be masked, at least as of now.
But because I've done everything via Zoom since the pandemic hit, I have no personal experience with masked conversations. I did plenty of Zoom meetings, and I found them to be mostly effective but less engaging than if we were in the same room together. So there's definitely a benefit to in-person meetings, but I don't know how to weigh it against any cost created by the masks, which may make it harder for us to read each other's facial expressions.
I'm sure that some of you, though, have had experience both with small (again, among two to four people) Zoom meetings and in-person masked ones, whether for school or for work. What have you found to be most effective?
Please note that I'm solely interested here in what will help my students and me get the job done (though if it's a tie, I'd likely prefer video, since it's often easier to find a video time slot that everyone can do, and since people can often do it conveniently from home). I'm not interested here in the broader policy questions of whether mask mandates (state-wide or employer-based) are a good idea, or for that matter how well masks work to stop the spread of COVID. Let's take as given that masks are mandated; how should I run my meetings in light of that?
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Did not already have COVID. Do get vaccinated. Forget masks as worthless.
Unvaccinated, refusing the mask, take this $10 test 15 minutes before the meeting.
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B094LVQZJL/reasonmagazinea-20/
Improve ventilation.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/ventilation.html
Buildings for business are stupid. Travel is stupid, time consuming, tiring, expensive and dangerous. Did you ever have a baby who would not stop crying? Get in the car, before you reach the end of the driveway, he is out cold.
Turn school buildings into nursing homes or warehouses. Make an employer prove that on site presence is necessary to complete a job. The presumption should be virtual work.
As a student, I always prefer in-person meetings with my professors, masked or not. However, I think I'm in the minority. Most of my classmates seem to enjoy the flexibility that zoom allows.
All's I know is my son, who is college senior is very relieved that in person instruction is back.
Try in person masks and make sure that fails before falling back to zoom classes.
I'm pretty sure you have a good feeling about how zoom vs online has affected your students, and it maybe law is different than computer science on how online effects the student experience, but that's what I'm hearing.
Masks are dehumanizing at best.
Would you require burqas if there was the slightest chance that it could save one life?
Slightest chance that it could save one life? No. A considerable chance that it could save a considerable number of lives? Maybe.
Eugene,
I'd choose to hold the meetings via zoom if the student is comfortable with that. FOr meetings of 30 minutes I'd insist on a Zoom meeting.
For meeting in person, I'd insist on a mask, an open door and at least 6 (better 10 ft of separation) for meetings less than 10 minutes
There always has to be at least one. (Sigh.)
You do know there are over 30 peer-reviewed papers that show masks have little to no benefit for protection against COVID?
But the media - social and mainstream - have worked overtime to prevent these from being distributed.
Not my point at all. Prof. Volokh specifically asked for no comments like yours. Whether your point is valid doesn't matter.
Are you kidding? The entire point of this blog is comments like his.
(Does Henley ever play that guitar hanging from his shoulder?)
The mask is the stigma of the Democrat douche bag. The best N95 has a weave 300 nm apart. The diameter of the corona virus is 120 nm. You have a jetting effect of aerosol into the air, when you cough or sneeze. Within a short time, like an hour, that mask is a gathering place and funnel for other people's bodily fluids. Those plastic shields are blood splash guards for the OR. They do not shield against viruses or even against aerosols.
Use the clear plastic masks. They don't hide your face and stop the droplets from transferring between people which is all you can expect a cloth mask to do. Here is one I wear and like.
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B08NWJZTZ8/reasonmagazinea-20/
Good luck Eugene. Its a brave new world, people talking to people without computer screens.
Good protection at the food bar, perhaps. Where is the protection against aerosols, let alone viruses?
Unless you have a tightly fitting N95 mask there is no protection from sub-micron size viruses. The cloth and blue medical masks people commonly wear provide no protection for aerosol viruses. They only stop droplets containing viruses from projecting from the nose or mouth. The plastic shields do the same.
Unmasked over Zoom, by a mile. Then it's just another videoconference.
The more everyone can do to avoid feeding the collective visceral sense that Something Bad Is Wrong, the sooner the collective mania will recede. Choose life, as it were.
For so many reasons beyond infection control, you are correct.
I have a small amount of experience with Zoom type meetings and a lot of one on one through one on 10 or so live masked meetings. I much prefer the remote meetings. Since I'm deaf in one ear the muffled voices and the lips behind the mask mean that I have to ask people to repeat themselves often. With Zoom and its ilk I can just turn up the volume and I can still see the lips of the speaker.
By gum! It took only 55 minutes, less than an hour, for the first responsive answer to show up!
My hat's off to you, sir. But not my mask, because I'm not wearing one 🙂
I would take in-person with mask over zoom. Even with mouths covered, direct eye contact is real when in person, not as much across zoom. Also if editing shared material, it's easier to point physically than just by dragging mouse.
But I'm an old guy.
Now consider the CDC data on breakthrough infections.
Over 166 MILLION vaccinated. Only 1.6 THOUSAND deaths. And 85% of those were people aged 65+.
You take bigger risks commuting to your office every day.
Darth Chocolate: I appreciate the risk isn't vast -- but note that it has been mostly, to my knowledge, over the last two or so months (at least judging by the most recent surge in deaths in the U.S., see here), given that for much of the past year vaccines weren't yet broadly available, and given that the apparently more-likely-to-break-through Delta variant is comparatively new to our shores. Say it's two months; that would mean that the current death rate is 800 per month per 166 million vaccinated, people, or (roughly) 5 per million. The auto accident death rate in the U.S. is roughly 10 per million (33,000 out of 330 million).
Now of course we do drive, but we recognize that car accidents are a serious risk; for instance, we wear seat belts, we buy baby seats for our children, and the like. It seems not implausible that we should take some safety measures against a disease that seems to be about 50% as deadly as cars. Now perhaps wearing masks indoors is far too burdensome -- but I'm not positive that it is.
Note also that, though my own personal risk is less, because I'm only 53 and healthy, my getting sick could indirectly get elderly people sick (including my parents, for instance), and I'd like to avoid that as well.
What is the substantive advantage of in person meeting in any law function, like teaching? None. Prevent the time, expense and danger of travel and of in person meeting.
And that's even assuming that all "1.6 THOUSAND deaths" were "from" COVID rather than "with" COVID. Which is an extremely generous assumption, because $$$$$.
Look at the CDC site. The factor out deaths not due to COVID.
As for the risk profile, a tolerable death rate for industrial accidents is approximately 1/1,000,000. This is a standard that safety professionals use to determine what other steps should be taken. It balances out costs versus risk.
You can only reduce risk, you can’t eliminate it. Unless you do absolutely nothing.
Your fear should not be able to dictate the lives of others. We are adults, so treat us as such.
Going and fishing for your source myself: In their post-hoc view based on the information they have at their disposal, yes -- they factor out 21% of the 1600 deaths you led with. Which is incredibly consistent with the reports coming left and right of 20-25% of deaths being "corrected" in various counties these days.
So one might reasonably wonder why you said 1600 when the CDC itself admits reality is only 79% of that.
Which makes the risk lower.
Yup -- thus the "and that's even assuming" in my original post. Apparently we're talking across each other.
When you do that, almost no death is left to be attributed to COVID.
There were 522000 excess deaths in 2020. The death rate in nursing homes is 26% a year, because everyone there is moribund. At 1.5 million, that is 390000. The 60000 flu deaths disappeared. Then, the Democrat lockdowns shut down medical care. People with cancer and with heart disease went undiagnosed and untreated and killed 100000. Deaths of despair from murder and from overdose soared 30%. Covid death became presumptive for the $35000 payment for each. Guy is shot in the head, is heard to cough. COVID death. This is the biggest fraud heist in human history.
Just curious; why ask this collection of misfits instead of the people who will be directly affected?
Anyone who if forced to wear a mask for whatever reason is affected.
Longtobefree: I will indeed ask my students as well, but they might not have a great deal of experience with in-person masked meetings, either. So I thought I'd ask both groups (as well as my UCLA colleagues) rather than just one.
Law students are indoctrination victims, and dependent on indoctrinator Volokh for their future wages. They are not in position to assert themselves against the criminal cult enterprise that is the lawyer profession. That is the most toxic occupation, 10 times more toxic than organized crime. Easier to say no, to Tony Soprano, than to Eugene Volokh.
Longie. You voted for Biden. Right? Go put your mask on.
Not student-teacher meeting dynamic, but my experience in corporate America is one-on-one is better on Zoom, multiple people who need to collaborate in-person, multi people with limited interaction (like a status update meeting) is superior on Zoom.
I personally find a benefit to in person lectures, if only because you get to ask questions to the professor directly and, for me, it is so much easier to pay attention when not learning on a computer. Even if there is a mask. Also note that at my university, there was a "mandate" but very little effort was put into compliance, which I can only assume is intentional. Most people did it though.
It can be harder to hear people with a mask on, I would encourage turning up the volume.
As I am a bit hard of hearing, unmasked on Zoom wins by the slimmest of margins. If I did not partly rely on lip-reading, it would be in person by a mile.
Eugene,
Mask or no mask, I would not stay in a closed, not well ventilated room with a person in close proximity for more that a few minutes.
Taking in-person separated by 10 ft is in itself rather strange for most people. I'd opt for zoom and give thestudents the time that they really need.
This seems to be the thread winner so far.
Zoom or any other computer based remote video service has approximately a zero chance of transmitting the virus.
I"
In person, indoors, well, we can argue about how effective masks are but the risk of transmission is certainly non-zero no matter which side of the argument you may be on.
I'd stick to the video. YMMV.
One of the bigger unknown factors is how peeps react to being forced to wear a mask. From the very start of the COVID-19 mess I know some folks who simply refuse to wear a mask and when forced to (like when I go to the VA clinic for appointments) react poorly. I was talking to one doctor who claimed he simply was not able to properly examine a patient due to the patient's attitude. Even when students are suppose to follow orders from teachers that does not always happen even in the best of times.
I have to go with Zoom because of too many unknowns from forcing peeps to wear masks. Not to mention I just got hearing aids and unless you speak very loudly masks can result in a lot of 'say again' interruptions.
I've had to do a ton of mediations. Literally thousands (before Covid), which were all in-person and (obvs) unmasked. During Covid, we went exclusively to via video, then went back to in-person [plus masks] earlier this year--for about a month--and are now back to only via video.
In-person gives so much more info than does video. BUT...wearing a mask takes away a great deal of info, and we had repeated situations in that one-month period of, "What? What did you say? Can you repeat that?" mediations. When my courthouse finally does again go back to in-person + masks, I'm gonna check with my clients and probably ask to continue doing mediations via video. At least until Covid is firmly in our rear view mirror and masks are no longer called for.
(Of course, the Lambda variant is apparently blazing thru South America right now, so God knows when Covid dangers will actually go away.)
You’d be surprised at how much effective communication is done even with masks. Tone of voice, body language, eye expressions — much much better in person than via Zoom.
My daughter conducts medical classes and meetings remotely via Zoom and/or YouTube with full face access for all. What you can do is use a streaming service to record your Zoom meeting and desktop which you can then edit snippets from to use as backup videos. Extra work or sure the safety of the students and teachers always comes first. It's just the learning curve and equipment for production that is key. She will not do any inperson event until Delta is controlled...crucial actually.
Brownie, your doctor daughter, maybe she knows something.
My experience working on data analysis and editing journal articles (physics) with grad students is more effective in person than over zoom. Masks are annoying and do impede some reading of facial expressions, but I find that you can still read body language. In my experience it is easier to stay focused in person.
What about maskless outside? I’ve met with plenty of coworkers and students outside. Weather is nice enough where I live and it’s never hard to finding a picnic table.
Might as well do some by zoom tho. It’s going to stay a part of the professional world even once this pandemic has subsided.
“I'm not interested here in the broader policy questions of whether mask mandates (state-wide or employer-based) are a good idea, or for that matter how well masks work to stop the spread of COVID.”
Nice try hehe
I too have not taught a class in person since March 12, 2020. I cannot imagine teaching a class wearing a mask. In my office, person to person, it is manageable, but not otherwise. I agree with many of the comments that masks are worthless, but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. Also, I am old (late 70s) and many of my students are early 20s. I don't need Delta, thanks, so will stay on Zoom for awhile.
Children are afraid of bringing death home to their parents, but, likely will try to force entry into facilities to visit their parents who are isolated.
Such is the life of children with aging parents. But nothing will stop the dark angel from enforcing its wishes. If , in fact, there is a dark angel watching us.
Mask simply make understanding of speech difficult, and provide numerous hazardous wastes lying around contaminating the areas where mask wearers deposit them.
Personally, I prefer in-person with mask... but it depends on what the definition of mask is: masks made of lace, cheesecloth, or mesh don't inhibit breathing or speech. Interestingly, spread of CoViD is not lower in nations where burqas have been commonplace for years: one might expect that covered-face females in many nations would have strikingly lower incidence of CoViD.
If you have been vaccinated, teleconferencing is preferable, as vaccinated individuals may experience infection with unnoticeable symptoms and inadvertently spread infection to others: contrary to popular opinion, reinfection and the spread of increasingly virulent strains is most common in areas with high vaccination rates.
There is no objective answer to this question.
Some people are face people, others are body language people.
Heck, I get everything I need over the phone, but I'm an outlier among my colleagues.
I do anecdotally find that the farther you go up in a management chain the more likely you are to meet in-person types.
I find masked and in person to be preferable. I use one of those disposable paper masks, which don't muffle the voice as much as a heavier cloth mask. I'm also 62, so there may be a generational element here - younger folks might prefer Zoom. I think in-person time with a prof is important, and would start with that and see how it goes.
As a technical writer documenting industrial equipment and processes, I've had occasion for many Zoom/Hangouts/Meet/Discord video meetings over the last year as well as quite a few in-person meetings with masks. While neither is ideal, I generally get more from the in-person meetings.
The tradeoff is largely between the impersonal interaction of video meetings and the difficulty of conversation inherent when FtF with masks as well as the convenience of a video meeting without travel issues. I prefer the disadvantages of FtF to those of video.
We just had our first optionally face-to-face department meeting after 15 months of Zoom. 2/3 showed in person and 1/3 decided to stay on Zoom. Subjective feelings aside, I can tell you that 90% of the unprompted discussion was by the faculty there in-person.
It also depends on the subject matter. If it's mostly about words and facial reactions to the words, Zoom might be almost comparable in effectiveness. If it's something involving spatial reasoning, literal arm waving, and pointing at equations and diagrams, it's not a close call.
What will help students learn the best? Screw the rules and teach in person, maskless. Be a rebel, do it for your students.
In person with masks is better than video conference. I personally don’t even notice the masks anymore. But as risk goes up with Delta, I am shifting more to video conference again.
I think I'd choose Zoom if given the option, just because it would be easier scheduling. In your position, I'd have some in-person hours and some Zoom hours and let the students decide what they prefer.
2 - 4 person video meetings are easier. You can have the student share his / her screen with the item being edited, and everyone can see and read it at the same time.
If you have the student send out the document before the meeting, everyone has full access to it, which is even better. because person A can flip back and forth looking for that one thing of interest while B and C are editing the current page.
Or you could go with Google Docs + video. I'm not a real fan of Google Docs any more, but some people like them.
But I'd let those people who really want "face to face" to have it. They just have a harder time getting an appointment
or you could just try it out yourself
Professor Volokh, you can put me firmly in the Zoom camp. To me, it is all about personal and reputational safety.