The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Managing Supply Chain Political Blacklist Risk?
Recent events made me wonder: What good things have been written about how people and organizations—especially ideologically minded organizations—can protect against their suppliers' blacklisting them because of what they say, or because of what they allow others to say?
The Amazon Web Services shutdown of Parler (for insufficiently policing user posts) is the most obvious recent example; while that was temporary, perhaps it wouldn't have been if Parler didn't have deep-pocketed investors. Discord has reportedly shown a similar willingness to cut off organizations for "allowing hate speech." Visa and Mastercard have apparently at times blocked payments to groups they view as "hate groups" (and had earlier blocked payments to Wikileaks).
Of course, if a supplier is just one of many in a competitive market, blacklisted users can easily switch to a competitor. But sometimes there might be only a few such suppliers in a field, and they might follow parallel ideological paths, whether because they share the same politics or just because they are subject to the same political pressures. (The clearest example of a "blacklist" is if indeed many competitors are going along with each other, formally or informally, so that if a company is dropped by one supplier, other suppliers are likely to follow suit.) Or sometimes transitioning from one supplier to another might be a massive and time-consuming undertaking.
Somewhere in pretty much any organization's supply chain, I suspect, are companies on which the organization relies, and which (1) can hurt it badly if they cut it off, or (2) can pressure it to change its content by threatening to cut it off. And while many of us may assume that of course these companies won't go after us, how can we be so sure? We've seen how just in the last few years things that were formerly seen as at most controversial have become grounds for firing or boycotts or deplatforming.
If five years ago, someone had said that Parler would be deplatformed by Amazon Web Services for following a say-what-you-like policy of the sort that had been pretty common online until recently, I think many of us would have been surprised. If people had said that some Dr. Seuss books would be pushed out of print for supposedly racist content, I think we'd have been surprised, too. If people had said that Amazon would stop selling books that take one side of the debate about gender identity (the formerly utterly orthodox side), I think we'd likewise have been surprised. And while some such examples don't involve suppliers, their point is that what content is beyond the pale has been changing quickly. What will be the basis for blacklisting five years from now?
Now these are private companies, and they generally have the legal right to terminate relations with people who say things (or who allow others to say things) that the companies dislike. Perhaps some such decisions by those companies are even on balance good; I'm not focusing on that now.
Rather, my question is this: Are there some thought-through, detailed analyses of how organizations can manage the risk that their suppliers (rightly or wrongly) will turn on them, whether for their views on race or affirmative action or sexual orientation or gender identity or illegal immigration or guns or climate change or vaccination or masks or whatever else?
For instance, one obvious possible answer is to insist on binding long-term contracts without any content limitations (except perhaps for outright illegal content), terminable by the supplier only for specific reasons, such as nonpayment. The University of California Academic Freedom Committee, for instance, has asked the UC administration to negotiate a contract with Zoom that omits Zoom's standard content limitations (though there doesn't seem to be a plan to insist on a binding long-term commitment). Are there suppliers of various services (hosting, payment, communications, order fulfillment, etc.) who are known for offering such binding and unrestrictive contracts, while of course still providing high-quality, affordable services?
Or in fields where binding contracts aren't viable, are there suppliers that are known for standing by their customers even in the face of public pressure? If in some relationships, there has to be some mechanism for termination for non-content-based business reasons, are there arbitral bodies that can quickly and reliably (without ideological spin of their own) resolve disputes about whether the termination was indeed justified?
Are there well-worked-out emergency transition mechanisms, for instance if one has to go without a long-term contract and an entity like Amazon Web Services or Microsoft or whoever else cuts one off? (Obviously, the transition mechanisms would differ depending on the kind of product that's being supplied.)
One seeming advantage of relying on common carriers, such as phone companies or delivery companies (such as UPS or FedEx) is that their common carrier status generally bars them from blocking customers based on the customers' ideology (or based on many other reasons). Has that proved reliable, or are the customers' legal protections more limited than they at first appear?
Are there particular other supplier sectors that so far have taken a hands-off approach to content (at least content that isn't illegal) but that seem likely to shift to more policing of what their users (or their users' users) say? For instance, should be worried about Google or Microsoft cutting off e-mail services for entities that they come to view as "extremists" or "hateful"?
I'm sure that savvy techies have already thought through all this; I'm not at all claiming these questions are new. But I suspect that some organizations haven't focused on this enough, at least yet. I'd love to know whether there are some solid, practical, helpful instructions out there that people can use.
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"The Amazon Web Services shutdown of Parler (for insufficiently policing user posts) is the most obvious recent example; "
Let us not mince words here: They weren't shut down for 'insufficiently policing user post", they were shut down for refusing to join an industry wide drive to impose political censorship on users.
No, let's not say that, that's just the wounded grievance of a political movement that's degenerated into something indistinguishable from shitposting and harassment.
its censorship. It doesn't stop being so just because you define the censored activity as 'shitposting'.
Balderdash. In the recent Supreme Court case was the business 'censoring' the union by not letting them come speak on their property? Is my friend who runs a billboard company 'censoring' the exotic dancing joint whose ads he refused to run?
Sorry, was the very nature of the business letting people freely come and speak on their property?
Oh, right, it was a farm.
Good grief.
Here's a thing about the internet. Notice I had two examples and one *was* where the very nature of the business was letting people use property for speech. Brian cherry picks the first one, says 'it's different' and Checkmate Lib!
Good grief indeed.
It's the one you led with. It's curious indeed why you did that if you didn't think it was applicable, and even more curious why I'm the bad guy for pointing out that it's not applicable.
First rule of holes.
"It’s the one you led with."
Pedant's progress.
Surely you weren't laboring under the notion that people might read a whole comment before having an angry counterargument?
Sure it is. But corporations have that power now. In fact they've had it for a while, and that's not all they censor - wait'll you hear about their attitudes to anyone organising a union! You're just trying to carve out a special exemption for conservative shitposting and harassment.
Same fallacious talking point as QA, half an hour apart. Must be something in the water.
He's talking about Amazon squelching pro-union speech during the recent unionization drive. Not surprised you didn't get that.
Ah, you divined that he was referring to a different unionization effort than you were through your super-secret Lefty codebook, whereas I just relied on the plain English words on the page. I'll try do to better.
What plain words on the page? He didn't mention the example I did and was, in fact, replying to a post *about Amazon.* You're seeing things...
"Same fallacious talking point as QA"
This word "fallacious" that you're using here, you're using it incorrectly. It doesn't mean "a very good point for which I have no good counter"
Speaking of censorship . . .
THE VOLOKH CONSPIRACY
This White, male blog
has operated for
NINE (9) DAYS
without publishing a
vile racial slur and for
706 DAYS
without imposing partisan,
viewpoint-driven censorship.
Nine days! Keep up the good work!
"its censorship. It doesn’t stop being so just because you define the censored activity as ‘shitposting’."
OK. But if I don't reflexively react to the word "censorship", am I still supposed to believe that people have some kind of a right to use other peoples' stuff to send out their message(s)?
At the point where a company that's perfectly happy to let you send out your message gets kicked off their hosting service, and loses their law firm in the middle of contesting it, I think it's fair to start complaining of censorship.
There is only one hosting service and law firm?
And hosting services and law firms must do business with anyone, whether they want to or not?
These are today's 'libertarians?'
Bake me a gay wedding cake!
"Bake me a gay wedding cake!"
Sure thing, but you'll have to take my word for it, the cake is kind of shy about things like that.
Look, old saying, probably predates Fleming: "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action."
Operation Choke Point wasn't fiction, (Like James Bond.) it was a very real, and very illegal, government program.
Now, Forbes, understandably, focused on the financial services end of Operation Choke Point, but it wasn't restricted to attacking payday lenders. There were a long list of legal businesses it targeted, including firearms businesses, and publishers of literature the government disapproved of.
Yeah, I can see that you'd like to believe that multiple businesses just spontaneously decide to sever their relationships with a given platform or person in the space of a day or so. But it's not realistic to think it's spontaneous. It's coordinated, it's 'enemy action'.
And, in fact, the Biden administration has all but announced its intention to restart Choke Point: They've unpublished a Trump era rule designed to prohibit such actions.
So, if Company A announces that it isn't going to pay any of its bills this month, and Companies B, C and D all stop providing services to A, it can only be because the evil socialist fascist communist lefties are behind it because they don't like Company A's management?
Hint: Making an attempt to overthrow the government has consequences. Fast and severe in autocracies, slow and bureaucratic in ours. Helping to try to overthrow the government makes other people look at whether or not they want to be working with you.
"No, let’s not say that,"
I'll say that. You are free to not say it if you wish.
That's okay, we've seen the sort of thing you like to say.
This blog has not published a vile racial slur for nine days. Have you been distracted, TwelveInchPianist?
"This blog has not published a vile racial slur for nine days."
How do you know that, Arthur?
How do you know someone has done something in public? You can just look.
RAK,
Stay on point. Enough of the tiresome screed that you spout as it it has any content or aim except to annoy
You may wish to conceal -- for understandable, if disgusting, reasons -- the frequency with which this conservative blog publishes vile racial slurs, often gratuitously, to appease its bigoted followers. I prefer the Faber Observation: Knowledge Is Good.
If you want to make it difficult or impossible for me to identify the frequency with which this blog publishes vile racial slurs, ask the proprietor to censor me.
Or maybe, drop the attempts to justify using racial slurs. He could also try that.
"Let us not mince words here: They weren’t shut down for ‘insufficiently policing user post”, they were shut down for refusing to join an industry wide drive to impose political censorship on users."
Egads... there's an "industry-wide drive" to stop people from advocating violence? The horror!
I'm for free speech, except for those who "advocate violence" . . . or "question science" . . . or "spread misinformation." But otherwise I'm totally opposed to censorship!
It's almost as if "free speech" was never an absolute right and there's always been limitations on it!
Or as it generally doesn't apply to private entities!
It's the "advocating violence" that came to top of mind, considering the attempt to overthrow an election by violence that happened this year.
We'll never know since Parler didn't attempt to put in some sort of content moderation that would apply to, say, use of the platform for coordinating meetups with underage kids, but not to political opinions.
I don't think either of these facts are in dispute:
1) That the stated reason the tech platforms gave for kicking Parler off was they essentially had no content moderation whatsoever, and
2) That Parler explicitly did not want to do any content moderation.
It's certainly possible that #1 was pretextual and the platforms would have required Parler to actually filter "hate speech" or other specific types of content, but it's impossible to say because Parler did not actually attempt to find a middle ground.
Actually, they ARE in dispute.
Parler absolutely had content moderation, and still does. It's not as aggressive and politically biased as, say, FB, but they had and have it.
What they weren't willing to do was join in coordinated deplatforming actions.
You're being paranoid again. Are you denying that Parler *prided itself* on engaging in less content moderation relative to their competitors? Well, then a company terminating association with them over a stated disagreement over...content moderation sounds quite normal and non-conspiratorial. Unless you're straining to find those kinds of things.
No, I'm not denying that. I'm denying that "less" is the same as "none".
And, one company terminating association with them might seem to you to be non-conspiratorial, but several in the space of a couple days?
It's almost like there was some kind of "event" that triggered all this animosity towards the poor, oppressed Conservatives. What could it have been?
I mean, they just fired their CEO because he wanted to try to do content moderation, so it seems like their board and CEO disagree with you.
I guess it's true that they don't allow pornography, but apparently aren't even effective at doing that:
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20210127/14503746135/content-moderation-case-study-social-media-upstart-parler-struggles-to-moderate-pornography-2020.shtml
No, they fired their CEO because he wanted to expand content moderation. Wanted, basically, to buy Parler's way out of the blacklist by joining the deplatforming effort.
How very socialist of them.
Of course we know. It was a coordinated move at the critical moment when Parler stood to gain a foothold against the other networks.
Yeah, because Google, Apple and Amazon really want to make sure that Facebook and Twitter are as powerful as possible.
Once the Conservatives decide you're a THEM, logic no longer applies.
No, they want to make sure they themselves are as powerful as possible. That means censoring any conservative populist voices that are strong or popular or competent.
Facebook, Twitter, Google, Apple, Amazon etc are all fanatically biased in their censorship of conservatives. Google's search results are now fully curated social engineering.
" That means censoring any conservative populist voices that are strong or popular or competent."
To censor the conservative populist voices that are competent requires precisely zero effort.
"I don’t think either of these facts are in dispute:"
By people with a grasp of reality. That leaves Brett out.
Yet another lawyer self delusion. Peivate companies that size, providing essential services, with few alternatives are utilities and quasi-governmental organizations. They are vast criminal enterprises, with billions of federal crimes, millions by them. Most are run by billionaires who want access to the Chinese Commie market, and are promoting the interests of the Chinese Commie Party. They are also stealing the value of personal information.
The slightesr viewpoint discrimination should result is a seizure in civil forfeiture. Auction them off like the Ferrari of a drug dealer.
This lawyer profession in in utter failure protecting our country. We will have to crush it to defend ourselves against these companies.
It's like if Liz Warren and Steve King had a baby then that baby was dropped on it's head and subsequently its education consisted entirely of Trump speeches and tweets.
Trump loved lawyers, he used them to rob people and shut them up all the time. Not enough to pay them, obviously.
"The slightesr viewpoint discrimination should result is a seizure in civil forfeiture"
Based on your delusional viewpoint , David?
Say, isn't advocating for seizure in civil forfeiture a (slight) viewpoint discrimination?
It's amazing to see conservatives suddenly discover:
1. The informal (but very real) power of Corporate America
2. That lots of people get so upset about someone's comment's or views that the person expressing those views takes a big financial hit (in consumer and/or supplier boycotts).
This has been going on for just forever. Dr. Seuss meet the Dixie Chicks.
Meet Sinead O'Connor meet the Smothers Brothers meet Woody Guthrie...etc., etc.,
John Lennon said the Beatles were "more popular than Jesus". Cue freakout.
"It’s amazing to see conservatives suddenly discover:
1. The informal (but very real) power of Corporate America..."
Conservatives have always recognized that the informal (but very real) power of Corporate America exists, and should be mitigated by a robust and competitive free market. A large regulatory state creates barriers to entry that impede a competitive and free market.
This is why deregulatory efforts are so often championed by the Chamber of Commerce I guess...
Chamber of Commerce are globalist rent seeking profiteers, not conservatives.
Lol, they call the shots in the GOP quite a bit my friend.
The Republican Party would place Satan, Nathan Bedford Forrest, and Vladimir Putin on its steering committee if that could help conservatives paddle hard enough to stay afloat in our culture war for another few years.
Exactly. The GOP isn't conservative either.
They're going to be disappointed to hear you say that. You might get kicked out of the Club.
"Chamber of Commerce are globalist rent seeking profiteers, not conservatives."
As if there's a difference.
"Conservatives have always recognized that the informal (but very real) power of Corporate America exists"
They didn't object to it back when they thought that they'd always have control over Corporate America. Now that some parts of Corporate America are being run by people who aren't Conservatives, they're suddenly alarmed that parts of Corporate America might have ideological positions.
"1. The informal (but very real) power of Corporate America
2. That lots of people get so upset about someone’s comment’s or views that the person expressing those views takes a big financial hit (in consumer and/or supplier boycotts)."
All the more reason that people expressing their views, whether left or right, ought to have diverse supply chains, no?
Of course, #2 has a lot to do with how tolerant the broader society is of viewpoint diversity. If people are properly educated to believe that a diversity of viewpoints are allowable, it shouldn't be a problem. But nowadays the education system seems to be more about indoctrinating students, as evidenced by the increasingly popular practice of shouting down speakers instead of engaging them.
It's just false that this is a 'nowadays' problem, in fact people 'nowadays' have much more ways to get out messages that would have been squelched before.
When was this halycon era of education where speech was untrammeled?
I mean, was it in the 50's and 60's when teachers were regularly disciplined for teaching communism?
Was it in the 60's or 70's when you had cases like Tinker where students or faculty were disciplined for speaking out against the Vietnam War?
The 80's and 90's when students or teachers were disciplined for mild sexual innuendo or pro-drug messages?
The Bong Hits for Jesus era?
We didn't start the fire, it's just that when the speech was speech that didn't bother conservatives started to get targeted conservatives became obsessed with the topic.
I'm not sure finding that Qanon, Trumpism and all the overlapping, tangential and adjacent modern conservative strains incoherent, often libelous, riddled with obvious falsehoods and expressing edless rage and hate at anything and everything, a set of viewpoints they would prefer to have nothing to do with is indoctrination, exactly. More like an education system that actually works, at some level.
I suggest that you try Hemingway's style rather than failing in an attempt to duplicate Milton's heroic prose.
You should go for e e cummings terseness.
"Of course, #2 has a lot to do with how tolerant the broader society is of viewpoint diversity. If people are properly educated to believe that a diversity of viewpoints are allowable, it shouldn’t be a problem."
Meh. People have whatever stupid opinion they fucking want, and it don't bother me any. On the other hand, when I'm deciding who will be having the opportunity to make MY money into THEIR money, I may take into account what that money might wind up being used for, after it isn't mine any more. That principle also works backwards, if I stop to think where my money is coming from.
Well sure.
But now that it's happening to conservatives, it's suddenly "cancel culture". It's just supposed to be queers and blacks who are fired and disenfranchised!
Yeah, they're mad about the tool now that it doesn't just live in THEIR toolbox.
Nah. True mob mentality used to be much more of a local thing, and it took big issues and lots of coordination to get broader momentum.
With Twitter mobs, you can get huge masses of people around the globe worked into a lather over the most insignificant of issues at the drop of a hat. That's a very new dynamic.
" That’s a very new dynamic."
Not really. A couple of hundred years ago, hanging witches became a fad. Huge masses of people around the globe got worked into a lather over the most insignificant of issues at the drop of a hat. No Twitter required.
Hanging witches a couple hundred years ago just suddenly turned into a huge thing, around the world, all at the same time. That's what happened in your fanciful parallel universe?
Pretty much, yeah. Was your history teacher not qualified to teach you, or were you just not qualified to learn?
“supposedly racist”
Were the birthers, Steve King, and Donald Trump, similarly, “supposedly bigoted?” Is race-targeting voter suppression “supposedly racist?” Are entities that fire or exclude people for being gay “supposedly bigoted?” Are people who oppose voting by women “supposedly misogynists?”
Is this similar to “often libertarian?”
On a related note: Under what circumstances can large employers force employees to do business (or avoid doing business) with certain vendors, under the auspices of a (possibly pretexual) policy.
One case is if they can get the employees to do so willingly.
Anyway, I think there are several major responses here.
1) The problem isn't so much that suppliers make these decision ideologically, but that almost all of the suppliers share an ideology, or at least lack a countervailing ideology. Conquest's 2nd law, in action.
Thus the 1st response has to be generating a supplier ecology that ARE explicitly right wing, and so will actively resist the tendency to become left-wing. This is going to be necessary from top to bottom.
2) Use of peer to peer models instead of server based models. The point of server based models is, essentially, to create choke points where monetization can occur. Outsourcing your own choke points is pretty foolish behavior, either keep them in house, or eliminate them.
3) Avoid "just too late" inventory systems. With those, you go down immediately if a vendor is pressured to drop you.
4) Avoid reliance on single vendors. At least dual source everything you can.
I wouldn't count on contracts protecting you from this sort of thing. It often happens as a result of government pressure, (See Project Choke Point.) and the government is not going to enforce contracts that require companies to stand up to its own pressure.
"1) The problem isn’t so much that suppliers make these decision ideologically, but that almost all of the suppliers share an ideology, or at least lack a countervailing ideology."
Brett goes on record as objecting to people agreeing with each other.
"2) Use of peer to peer models instead of server based models."
Peer-to-peer models ARE server-based. What's actually different is that all the clients are also servers. This is (literally) covered in Networking 101.
"3) Avoid 'just too late' inventory systems."
"Just in time" resource management cuts costs, because you don't have to provide for storage. This lets you be agile, locating your facilities wherever you can get the best deal for them, and moving easily if you can get a better deal elsewhere or need your operation to be, say, not currently experiencing natural disaster or civil unrest. Being able to rearrange your operation to function despite disruption is exactly the sort of thing that thrives in the modern business environment. You'd like to avoid that, which is why you aren't running a big business right now.
"I wouldn’t count on contracts protecting you from this sort of thing."
Of course not, if your suppliers can put terms in the contracts that let them out if you are a threat to THEIR business.
Said every antitrust defendant ever.
Thanks for the snotty pedantic clarification. The rest of us clearly understood Brett's point to be not relying on a CENTRALIZED server. You know, from the context.
The siren song of JIT actually plays out as advertised as long as the music keeps playing smoothly. Unplanned disruptions lead to big failures that a bit of inventory buffer would have ameliorated. We've lived through a large number of those just within the past year.
"The siren song of JIT actually plays out as advertised as long as the music keeps playing smoothly. "
Cutting costs and increasing agility both have proven track records as paths to business success.
" Brett goes on record as objecting to people agreeing with each other.
Said every antitrust defendant ever."
And Brian goes on record as not understanding antitrust.
"Peer-to-peer models ARE server-based. What’s actually different is that all the clients are also servers. This is (literally) covered in Networking 101."
Yeah, and people who go "off grid" are staying on grid, it's just their own little grid. I'd say don't be an ass, but that's hopeless.
"“Just in time” resource management cuts costs, because you don’t have to provide for storage."
Yeah, I know the theory, and I know from personal experience why the system is called "just too late" inventory among auto suppliers. Man, you should have seen the mess here when our only supplier of a key SS grade suddenly shut down a couple years back. Only reason we were able to keep going is that we WEREN'T doing just too late. There were still delivery disruptions while we re-qualified parts to the new source.
" I’d say don’t be an ass, but that’s hopeless."
I agree, if you can't do it yourself, you have no business demanding that other people do it.
"Yeah, I know the theory"
But you don't know how to put the theory to work for you? Which proves it doesn't work for anyone?
This sounds a lot like the Republicans' complaint of government. They don't know how to run one, so they assume ALL government is corrupt and inefficient.
"1) The problem isn’t so much that suppliers make these decision ideologically, but that almost all of the suppliers share an ideology, or at least lack a countervailing ideology."
Yes. When the countervailing "ideology" is "own the libs" where "libs" now includes "anyone with a college degree or who lives near a big city" it is perhaps unsurprising that entire fields of knowledge work are now politically aligned in the other direction.
"2) Use of peer to peer models instead of server based models. The point of server based models is, essentially, to create choke points where monetization can occur. Outsourcing your own choke points is pretty foolish behavior, either keep them in house, or eliminate them."
This is not too far off. People are definitely going to figure out how to monetize their work. There's potentially ways to do this in a peer-to-peer model, but they're much harder and they're harder to build and use as well (which is presumably why Parler itself wasn't peer-to-peer) so it's more work for less benefit. Even beyond the theoretical problems of peer-to-peer coordination, if you wanted to have Facebook/Twitter levels of scale and capabilities, who owns all of these peer-to-peer computers and where do they sit? There's certainly not enough spare compute available on people's laptop/desktop machines to replace the huge fleets of servers that tech companies operate today.
I agree with #3 and #4.
Your ideas aren't actually bad, but there's a rather big point I think you missed: these are all anti-capitalist ideas. Further, they are, broadly, all things that every historical minority group has had to do.
You want to get supply chains where you can trust your suppliers to not care that you're
an assholeconservative? Whataya know, that's something every minority-focused business has had to worry about, forever.You want to use peer-to-peer models for information sharing because you don't trust the centralized models embraced by the majority? Welcome to underground networking!
Having to choose more costly systems because you can't rely on mainstream ones to treat you fairly? Again, minority-owned businesses know this one too well!
All the things you insisted were perfectly normal and acceptable for others to be subjected to, are now ones you fear you will be subjected to. So now it's a problem.
The only thing businesses need to know is what's profitable.
If profits are (potentially) hurt by a continuous relationship with a contractor/vendor, then go ahead and terminate the relationship.
This is a business decision not a legal one aside from the obvious contract issues (e.g. breach of contract).
"The only thing businesses need to know is what’s profitable."
Sure. Knowing how to profit is entirely optional.
Yes, not being a business whose assholishness is the main selling point. That oughta do it.
Not really - see Delta and Georgia.
Nothing’s 100%.
Although since you mentioned it, we should all enjoy this moment because it will be one of the only instances where a company’s tax “burden” is “increased” without a single “conservative” whining about it.
These are amoral corporations so assholishness that is profitable or sufficently nicewashed will also do it.
I agree with libs that conservatives need to stop patronizing platforms that hate them and bUiLd oUr OwN pLatForms like they so often gleefully remind us.
I just wish they'd actually allow us to do as they recommend rather than pursue us like some unhinged jealous spouse once we leave and move heaven and earth to make following their suggestions impossible by getting the next higher level platforms to censor us. Coordinating everyone to act like a cartel to deny us any alternatives. Get global payment processors to cut us off if that fails. Launch massive DDOS hacking attacks against our websites to try to take them down . And if all other options are exhausted scheme with government officials to stamp us out through laws.
I mean if you really don't want us to leave I suppose government regulation of these enforced monopolies is the next best if suboptimal solution.
The Klan has survived a civil rights revolution. I think you guys may be OK, AmosArch.
pursue us like some unhinged jealous spouse
....
The conspiracy thinking on the right is more and more mainstream. It's like Mirror-Chomsky.
"I mean if you really don’t want us to leave I suppose government regulation of these enforced monopolies is the next best if suboptimal solution."
They keep telling you to GTFO, from which you've determined that they don't want you to leave. With keen insights like that, no wonder you guys can't tech your way out of a binary bag.
"I'm sure that savvy techies have already thought through all this; I'm not at all claiming these questions are new."
Indeed. "Buy vs. Build" is a topic that IT students study. You can buy a solution that is ready to go on day one, or you can build one to suit your needs exactly in however long that takes. You don't have to worry about Google or Microsoft cutting off your email access if you don't use Google or Microsoft tools to build your email system(s).
True, but you do still have to worry about them having a word with Visa or Paypal, leaning on your law firm to drop you in the middle of litigation, potentially even DNS refusing to resolve your url, or the power company shutting you down because the bank didn't process your payment of your power bill.
Political blacklist risk is only growing as it spreads through the IT ecology into areas that were formerly utterly apolitical.
As always, if you think a service or good is too important for a provider to have the option of refusing a customer, then your choices are to either (A) make it a government run service, or (B) sufficiently regulate it to preclude that possibility.
If you are uncomfortable with that, then "I may lose access to non-necessary services because people know how much of an asshole I am" necessarily must be an acceptable risk.
"service or good is too important for a provider to have the option of refusing a customer'
or too big ... and manipulative with what you thought was private data?
1) Then press for legislation to have them designated as common carriers.
2) Broaden your supply chain
3) Engineer alternate paths to delivering your product at low cost.
4) Stop whining and get to work.
You sounded a lot less crazy when you were acknowledging that the issue was that these companies had aligned ideologies rather than suggesting that Bezos is picking up the phone to the CEO of Visa to try to get some service he doesn't like blacklisted.
"True, but you do still have to worry about them having a word with Visa or Paypal"
Engineer your own payment-processing system(s), if you don't like the way other people run theirs.
" even DNS refusing to resolve your url"
If you have a problem with DNS not resolving your url, speak to your (incompetent) IT manager, because the DNS server that resolves NS queries for your domain is owned and operated by YOU. Unless it's not, in which case, you screwed up and did it wrong. Odd that we keep coming back to that.
I don’t think it’s a buy vs. build question in modern IT, as the external service dependency and elasticity requirements are just too high (unless, perhaps, you have the market mass to bend realities to your will - DoD, JPMorgan, etc). Unfortunately, what “IT students study” is always too shallow or outdated to be a useful benchmark of anything.
The discussion is one of business continuity planning, and like many contemplated scenarios the solutions revolve around diversification, contingencies, and vetting. The first to have multiple avenues for a service active, the second to have fail-over compensatory relationships identified if not established (along with tested break-the-glass transition plans), the last is about evaluating the resiliency of the resource to such political vicissitudes as plague the US right now. Maybe this means sourcing services out of more stable tech countries (e.g. Serbia, etc - who saw that statement coming 15 years ago?). But seriously, knowing what AWS has done, you would be a fool to pay AWS if you saw even moderate risk of your company being tarred in the public square.
While I give a lot of weight to arguments about the rights of private companies, the dominance of FAANG in their respective spaces, combined with the collusion to control the IT vertical from compute, storage, connection, distribution, to publication, is beyond concerning. They seem to be demonstrating zero interest in self-regulating for neutrality, and going in the opposite direction: falling over themselves to prove their bias.
If you choose to outsource some of your business operations, you run the risk that that part of your operation is no longer under your control. So, for example, if you rely on UPS to deliver products to customers, you run the risk that UPS tells you it will no longer deliver to (X). If delivering to (X) is core to your business, you should have invested in delivery vans and a distribution center in or near (X).
For anyone running something smaller than a mediums-size-or-up business this is just a relatively simple risk management exercise.
Identify your inputs, evaluate alternatives. Look at the market for each and estimate your risk of crossing them. If you have the money for it, secure redundant supplies of critical inputs, secure contracts that address the issue, structure your use of suppliers such that damage and/or risk can be minimized. It is hard to make concrete suggestions without looking at actual examples in context.
You can of course also make internal changes to reduce risk, but I don't think you're asking about that. Just worth remembering, it is an option.
As for specific recommendations, again, hard to do in a vacuum - what works for a large company will not for a libertarian side-blog. You can always take your blog (or drug storefront, or assassination market, or insurrection-as-a-service offering, or whatever) to the 'dark web', which is just a set of overlay protocols, or seek hosting among the 'bulletproof' providers who will host spammers, kiddie porn, etc. There are, of course, tradeoffs to doing so.
More determined/resourced people self-host, including procuring their own bandwidth. This is, in fact, what I do, but only because I built my little island on the net a long time ago, when you had to build it yourself.
"For anyone running something smaller than a mediums-size-or-up business this is just a relatively simple risk management exercise. "
No, it's basic engineering. If you don't like the way someone runs their business, then don't do business with them. If Amazon's cloud computing platform places restrictions on how you operate your business that you find objectionable, then don't build your system out of Amazon cloud servers. Build your own server farm. If VISA or MasterCard can cripple your cashflow, then build your own payment systems.
If your business model requires that all these services be provided in-house so that you have full control of them, then quit whining that the people who run the businesses that provide these services are looking out for their own businesses instead of yours. Build it yourself and keep all the profit. If you don't have the capability to build it yourself because building things is hard, you can buy a business that already has built something like what you need. that's how Ebay became the owner of a payment-processing business.
Why are big tech "suppliers" assumed to have freedom of contract which allows them to refuse to do business with anyone whose opinions they object to, but small businesses, bakers, for example, are classed as "public accommodations" so as to force them to do business with people whose opinions they object to?
Why are conservatives somehow incapable of understanding the outcome of Masterpiece Cakeshop?
Because we're capable of understanding that the outcome was just that he'd be attacked again and again.
Masterpiece Cakeshop Owner Jack Phillips Still Fighting For His Cake Business After A Decade
Winning at the Supreme court only won him a brief respite.
"Phillips' legal nightmare was thought to be over, but on the very same day the Supreme Court agreed to hear his case, a local Denver attorney named Autumn Scardina phoned in to the Masterpiece Cakeshop and asked the owner to craft a cake that celebrates his "gender transition" to that of a transgender woman."
Yeah, Phillips is kind of an idiot. Thinking your "legal nightmare" is over just because the SCOTUS agrees to hear the case is more then a little like "counting your chickens before they hatch", but even stupider because eggs hatch into chickens far more reliably then defendants win at the SCOTUS.
That said, to the degree that Phillips has been "attacked again and again", it's because the SCOTUS was too chicken-shit to make a decision, and punted. They knew this idea, that "because Jesus" was sufficient reason to overrule a non-discrimination law of general applicability, wasn't going away. But instead of either firmly shutting it down, or endorsing it, they punted.
So, uh, blame SCOTUS. And Phillips. Because he's an idiot and a bigot.
"Yeah, Phillips is kind of an idiot."
Yes. There's a fairly small range of areas where you get to decide what your customer does with your product after paying for it. Baked goods is not within that traditional range.
Seriously? Scardina's complaint was rejected by Colorado's Civil Rights Commission. He's subsequently filed a private lawsuit, but no judge or jury has ruled in his favor. I'm sure it's pretty annoying to be the face of anti-gay bigotry in America, but pretending that cake makers are obliged to make cakes they don't want to since one of them gets a bunch of annoying attention would be like pro-choice people claiming that no one is allowed to have abortions because there's protestors outside the clinics.
Ugh, I stupidly copied the Christian Daily's author's use of gender pronoun. Scardina's a her not a him.
Like it matters what gender HE thinks he is.
That is not an answer to the question.
Okay, how about: "cake shops are not forced to do business with people whose opinions they object to, so your premise is faulty"?
"Why are big tech “suppliers” assumed to have freedom of contract which allows them to refuse to do business with anyone whose opinions they object to"
Because you don't understand the argument that was actually presented.
One involves discrimination on the basis of sex (not allowed), the other is political discrimination (allowed). Until you find a way to distort the lens just enough to have your political views seen as a protected attribute under existing law, you get no relief other than some sort of trust-busting or new content-neutrality regulation.
This is a real and significant problem, and there is an active and ongoing "arms race" in progress between the blacklisters and their victims. The reason there aren't any good comprehensive articles on the topic is that whichever side wrote them would be helping its opponents win that "arms race."
Now that the targeted organizations have found out the hard way to be careful whom they employ for web hosting services and cloud services, I don't expect anybody to fall again for the tricks that took down Gab (twice) and Parler (once).
But there are other services forum hosts need that can potentially be denied if their providers can be persuaded to behave as a cartel, and such efforts are ongoing. One is to deny banking services to a forum provider so that its supporters can't pay it. Visa, Mastercard, and Discover have a shared blacklist and will cut off service to its chosen opponents. As a result, so many banks and credit card services have kicked out Gab that it has had to turn to overseas cryptocurrency brokers as a way for its users to pay it.
If we had a fair government in power, DOJ's antitrust division would be all over these people, for their behavior is the very definition of anticompetitive. But instead, the Biden administration is trying to raise "Operation Choke Point" from the dead and expand it to cover Republicans.
We need lawyers to defeat this for us. Or we need a war.
When libertarians channel their inner Liz Warren/Noam Chomsky...All it took was the Orange Dear Leader to bring it out!
QA,
An honest question: What is it with you and Noam Chomsky?
You seem to bring him up frequently?
LIzzie is "un altra cosa."
It's like you and hobby horses.
"Now that the targeted organizations have found out the hard way to be careful whom they employ for web hosting services and cloud services, I don’t expect anybody to fall again for the tricks that took down Gab (twice) and Parler (once)."
Build it yourself and run it the way you like or buy it from someone else under their terms.
"We need lawyers to defeat this for us. Or we need a war."
To Washington! All you patriots, bring your muskets! This time for sure it'll work!
Cryptocurrency or anonymous cash equivalents are highly valuable to society because of this. Sure they’re fiat, but so is everything else, but decentralizing the payment processing from cartels is a powerful thing for liberty.
Or just go out to the back yard and dig up some of the Krugerrands.
This isn't complicated.
If you think a service is so important that it should be beyond ideology and available to everyone? Make it a government service, or sufficiently regulated by the government to remove that possibility.
If you are unable or unwilling to do that, then you are necessarily accepting the risk that someone may think you're an asshole and tell you to fuck off.
The fact that you're only stumbling onto this now, rather then, y'know, when you first started espousing libertarian beliefs, really goes to show that you never thought it might be *you* that was refused service for ideological reasons. "Face-eating-Leopards" party indeed.
"This isn’t complicated."
Indeed not. Used to be, Republicans understood business and how it works. But now that it requires understanding of new technology, they're lagging behind.
If you want to make decisions about how a business is run, own it. If you don't own it, you don't get to make decisions about how it's run.
If your business depends on another business, own it. If you don't own it, have a contingency plan in place for finding a replacement.
If you can't master these simple rules, you MAY be a Conservative.
"If you are unable or unwilling to do that, then you are necessarily accepting the risk that someone may think you’re an asshole and tell you to fuck off."
Meh!
One of the best ways to deal with this would be for red states to start banning these companies from government contracting in their state when they engage in blacklisting of any resident of that state. Private companies can choose to blacklist someone, states can choose not to do business with companies that treat their residents that way.
Beyond that, red states should use the same action to prohibit state government contracting or any other use of providers that interfere with communications of candidates on the ballot. Kick Facebook or Google off every government and school computer and network in Kentucky or Texas and see how fast they decide that it’s not their place to censor candidate communications.
Parler in particular should sue individuals and companies en masse. Someone needs to start suing the Twitter mobs for tortious interference, especially if some blacklisting action is based on defamatory falsehoods repeated by Twitter users.
Same for suing Visa and MasterCard when they pressure a payment processor to drop a specific client.
YouTube in particular should face government anti-trust scrutiny. Probably also Facebook. Maybe some red state AG offices can start that.
Companies should start using multiple providers, some in foreign countries. Remove points of failure. Avoid use of any company that has engaged in blacklisting anyone in the past. Pay attention to which companies seem willing to swallow propaganda, like Target and Delta, and make sure you’re don’t rely on them for anything you need.
Someone could put together a blacklisting-risk index of woke companies. That would help warn these companies' customers that they face a risk. Premium part of that service could share names of individual people at these companies that have pushed for blacklisting.
"One of the best ways to deal with this would be for red states to"
Government should fix our problems for us. Yeah, that's the ticket!
How does the Civil Rights act of 64 fit into this? I thought sellers could not discriminate but buyers could. In other words if you offer a service and a buyer provides acceptable exchange at the market rate you can't say no. How could Amazon shut down Parler just because they didn't like what some folks on Parler blogged? Can a private company deny servies to a buyer based on the buyer's political beliefs?
A private company that wants to maintain control if its resources can put terms and conditions into the contracts for provision of services. Contracts are enforceable, unless they are contrary to public policy.
Discrimination in general is legal except for a list of specific types of discrimination which are illegal. It's legal to discriminate against conservatives. It's illegal to discriminate against straight white men.
If AWS, Facebook, etc. were common carriers they would be forbidden from viewpoint discrimination as well. Some of the proposals for cutting the influence of big tech companies include making them common carriers.
Net Neutrality? EEK!
"It’s illegal to discriminate against straight white men."
The existence of affirmative action disproves your assertion. I'll add that I'd expect certain universities would refuse to accept or have any scholarships for only whites, or only men.
Yes, and that’s a good thing, unless the seller is a monopoly or cartel. In other words when the buyer has no option (cartel, government) it is bad, when the market is healthy (characterized my multiple alternatives) this is a feature.
All the Internet does is move bits around. There's no monopoly on bits, and literally anyone can write code to move them around. The problem comes from wanting to use someone else's pre-existing work instead of building your own.
In the history of tech, there are a few epic examples of major shifts of whose prior work underlies everybody else's work. In the early days of networking, Novell NetWare was king. But they got pushed aside, and now close to nobody still uses NetWare. Back in the olden times, most PC computers ran MS-DOS. Now, DOS is dead. In the 1980s, the industry looked to IBM for leadership. Now, they're pretty much out of the business entirely. WordPerfect pushed WordStar out of the picture, and in turn got axed by Word. At one point, the web browser of choice was Netscape Navigator, but then Internet Exploder became dominant before fading away in favor of Chrome. There was a time when AOL was big enough to consume Time-Warner, and where are they now? The lesson for people paying attention is that there is no scale that is big enough to not get pushed aside. This is why the current market leaders in the tech industry are constantly innovating, trying to stay at least a step ahead of some startup that nobody's heard of... yet.
Perhaps it’s time for Iowa farmers to prevent their goods from being sold to blue cities or states. Want gas in Texas? What if gas stations refuse to sell to those with California license plates, or company trucks (like Coke) that take an opposite political stance. Want to buy a home in texas - nope, no Californians allowed. How about if trucking association refuses to transport goods to blue areas? Want iPhone unloaded at the dock. Nope, dock workers don’t like Apple politics. Really, this is where we want to go where business can refuse service to lawful customers based upon politics. Be careful what you chase, you might catch it.
"Want to buy a home in texas – nope, no Californians allowed."
Oregon tried that years ago, even putting up a big billboard on I-5 at the border (that told them to leave their money and get back out). Pesky Constitution doesn't allow for it, they said. Put down your pitchforks and put out your torches, they said.
" Want iPhone unloaded at the dock. Nope, dock workers don’t like Apple politics."
The thing is, containers don't have windows in them, nor do they paint the logos of the products inside the container on the outside of the container. You'd actually have to look at the paperwork.
What is the libertarian legal point of view, regarding the freedom of individuals/businesses to discriminate (refuse to do business with, or similar things such as censor posts/tweets) against others for political beliefs?
Governments, along with businesses/people discriminated against certain people, believing they shouldn't have any say in politics, e.g. in the old Jim Crow South. Recently there's been a lot of conservative speech censored with pressure from government insiders and businesses with a liberal bent. On the other hand, I've read arguments in Reason that voluntary economic pressure against bigots (e.g., not doing business with them) can lead to good change. Do we need to amend the CRA to ban discrimination based on political beliefs? Or perhaps to do away with government restrictions on individual/business "discrimination" entirely, or something in between?
Has it gotten to the point, that we're going to have an economic boycott civil war with groups only doing business with the politically like minded? Not yet IMHO but we're moving in that direction. It's a symptom of too much government control, especially over commerce, because with smaller government it didn't matter.