The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Constitutional Case Against Retroactive Impeachment
From my Newsweek op-ed Friday:
The second impeachment of Donald Trump raises an important constitutional question that no court has yet addressed—whether the Constitution's impeachment provisions apply not just to sitting officials, but to former ones.
The Constitution provides that the impeachment process shall apply to "all civil Officers of the United States," suggesting that those subject to it must actually hold office. But the possible trial of Trump has generated a swirl of arguments to the contrary. Last week, more than 150 law professors signed a letter arguing that even private citizens who had once held office may be impeached and then tried by the Senate. Perhaps influenced by such academic authority, this week the Senate rejected by a 55-45 margin a resolution concluding that such a trial would be unconstitutional. The arguments in favor of impeaching former officials are weak—and those to the contrary is at least compelling enough to not deprive a private citizen of his right to a jury trial.
Supporters of after-office impeachment have attempted to point to historical precedents—but there are no such precedents. In the 230-year history of the U.S. Constitution, there have been zero impeachments or trials of former presidents, and only one of any former "civil officer"—145 years ago.
Historical practice can be a guide to understanding the Constitution, but the Supreme Court has held that it takes a lot more than an isolated historical episode to show that something is constitutionally acceptable. Moreover, there is no reason to ignore the glaring lack of impeachments of the countless former office holders who may have deserved it. Indeed, since government officials spend more time out of office than in it, if subsequent impeachment were constitutional, one would expect to see it more often than impeachment of sitting officials.
The primary argument in favor of using the impeachment process against former office holders is policy-based. Because the sanction of being barred from office can only be applied after a Senate conviction, an official could "undermine" the impeachment mechanism "simply by resigning one minute before the Senate's final conviction vote." Yet a last-minute resignation is far from an avoidance of accountability. Resignation removes the official, and does so more surely than a Senate trial. As can be seen in the case of Richard Nixon, it does little or nothing to remove the public stain of impeachment proceedings, which the Framers recognized was perhaps their greatest effect. Moreover, in the case of presidents, leaving office immediately opens them up to criminal prosecution.
While barring someone from office is one of the punishments available in impeachment, nothing suggests it is so essential, or the strategic resignation scenario so likely, that being able to pursue people when out of office is essential to the impeachment power. It would be like prosecuting dead people for crimes, and punishing their estates with fines, because otherwise people could "escape accountability" by committing suicide.
Conjuring up the exceedingly speculative case of an office holder who resigns from office "one minute" before a conviction only highlights how far-fetched the broader argument is. Even if concern about strategic resignation were valid, it would not mean that the Senate should be able to try people who did not resign to avoid responsibility. Trump left office not through any gamesmanship, but at the natural end of his term. It was the Senate, not Trump, that strategically choose to delay the start of the process until he left office.
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"Perhaps influenced by such academic authority, this week the Senate rejected by a 55-45 margin a resolution concluding that such a trial would be unconstitutional."
So 45 votes that the Senate doesn't have the authority to convict?
The Senate could save itself some hassle, long-term, if it adopted a sort of "Demurrer" rule, where 1/3 of the Senators could dismiss an impeachment without a formal trial.
I posted something along these lines that seems to have moderated. It basically said when the silly dems in the House voted to impeach Trump it was obvious to anyone with an IQ above room temperature Trump would never be convicted.
Once Paul got his 45 votes it became embarrassingly clear Trump will not be convicted.
As a bonus question 'how many angles can dance on the head of a pin?"
As a bonus question ‘how many angles can dance on the head of a pin?”
Easiest question yet asked by man; as many as God wants.
Are they acute or obtuse? (The angles, I mean; we already know Trumpkins are obtuse.)
A better question would be how many saxons could dance in the head of a pin.
Hard to picture.
No, you're missing the point. If you believe -- as the House Democrats and ten of their Republican colleagues do -- that Trump incited a riot, you cannot simply walk away without trying to hold him to account. It would have been like not looking for D.B. Cooper. You may never find him, but you have to at least try; you cannot send a message that that kind of behavior won't even be challenged.
If those profiles-in-courage Senate Republicans let him off the hook, that's on them.
If they believe he incited a riot in any legally cognizable sense, they should call for his criminal prosecution; Conviction would make convicting him in the Senate easy.
But it's more of a " You said things we didn't like!" sense, than any legal sense, and they know it.
Either that, or a criminal prosecution would be more divisive for the country than the OJ Simpson trial and take longer than Jarndyce v. Jarndyce.
You really think a genuine trial with due process, an identifiable crime alleged, the presumption of innocence, evidence and witnesses subjected cross examination would be more divisive than a political show trial with none of that?
Nah. You just realize you haven't got an actual LEGAL case against him.
What Martinned said.
This whole post is devoted to arguing that former office-holders can't be impeached, and then concludes that this means there can be no Senate trial of someone out of office who was impeached while still in power.
That makes no sense. Trump was impeached while in office.
and then concludes that this means there can be no Senate trial of someone out of office who was impeached while still in power.
That makes no sense. Trump was impeached while in office.
You thin "impeached while still in power" is somehow different from "impeached while in office"?
No.
My point is that the OP goes to great length to claim that no one can be impeached after they are out of office. (Of course, he doesn't really offer much support for this, beyond some weak attacks on the opposing arguments.)
But Trump was impeached while in office, so that 's irrelevant to the current case. But Kontorovich then leaps from this to suggesting that the Senate is barred from trying the impeachment.
He's just blowing smoke.
Pretty much.
I personally take the position that you can't impeach after someone has left office, because at that point they're just a private citizen, and only officers of the government are subject to impeachment. But, as you say, Trump has already been impeached. At most he is beyond a third impeachment.
As to trying him, though, the only qualification for THAT is to have been impeached.
I personally take the position that you can’t impeach after someone has left office, because at that point they’re just a private citizen, and only officers of the government are subject to impeachment.
Sounds right to me.
No there is also a qualification that they be in office, because otherwise removing someone not in office doesn't make sense, and barring them from office but not removing them doesn't make sense.
Barring them from future office, but not removing them because they have already left office, makes sense to me.
Exactly. If removal from office were the only penalty, I'd agree that trial after leaving office would be barred as moot. But it isn't.
That said this proceeding is a joke. Predetermined to fail because it IS a political trial, and because Trump has done nothing that looks properly impeachable to anybody but his political enemies. And not enough Republican Senators or interested in retiring to convict him; He doesn't lack for Republican enemies, but few of them are Republican voters.
Democrats began discussing impeaching Trump before he was even elected. A resolution to start an impeachment investigation was filed within a week of his taking office. His entire administration polls have shown a solid majority of Democrats favoring impeachment, even when they had no idea what to impeach him over.
This is just a desperate effort to get one last dig in, nothing more. They hate him so much they can't refrain.
Trump tried to steal the election. That alone is impeachable. Further, his lies, an integral part of his attempt to steal the election, provoked the attack on the Capitol.
You don't have to be a political enemy of Trump to believe my claims. To the contrary, you just have to be a thinking person who cares about our democracy. Those who defend Trump are the ones putting politics above country.
My point is that the OP goes to great length to claim that no one can be impeached after they are out of office. (Of course, he doesn’t really offer much support for this, beyond some weak attacks on the opposing arguments.)
He does make the point, about the Constituion "impeaching officers"
Which is alway been the case. Impeachment is not really the individual, but the "officer". Much the same reason the CJ declined to preside at the Senate Trial. Because "The President" is not being impeached.
The President was impeached, but the President of the United States is not being tried. The senate needs to take action on the impeachment, but they should just dismiss it as moot.
Where does it say that?
And how exactly does it make sense to interpret the restriction that only a current officer may be impeached as not also applying to the trial? An impeachment serves no legal purpose other than to serve as the precursor to a trial. Saying that you can't impeach a former office-holder for an offense...but that you can try him/her for it...makes far less sense than what you're complaining about.
In general, so long as all necessary conditions were met at the time the charging instrument was brought, the trial can go forward even if one or more of those conditions later changes. For example, if a statute of limitations hadn't expired when the complaint was filed, there is no requirement that it still not have expired before the trial actually begins. Likewise, if personal jurisdiction existed at the time the complaint was filed, it isn't defeated if the defendant then moves to another state before trial.
There are some exceptions. If one of the conditions that changes means there is no longer a case or controversy, the case would need to be dismissed. If the facts change so the issue is now moot, same.
So I think the answer depends on whether his status as an ex-office holder is more closely analogous to personal jurisdiction or subject matter jurisdiction. If it's the former, then the trial can proceed. If the latter, then it may not.
Yes once impeached always impeached. That is not what is at issue here. The impeachment of Trump was only charges being upheld against him stating that there is enough evidence for a trial. In this case the impeachment was NOT upheld so even though impeached Trump was not convicted thus he was not forced out of office. To the democrats which does not WANT Trump to ever be able to hold office or even run for office again (even if he is not sent to prison which many would preferer) thus Trump will have to be impeached again.
A conviction in the Senate requires the concurrence of a two-thirds supermajority of those present which at this time senate does not have. The result of conviction is removal from office (which at this time is not possible since Trump is no longer a office holder but this following part is what the democrats wants) and (optionally, in a separate vote) disqualification from holding any federal office in the future, which requires a concurrence of only a majority of senators present. It is this last part that the democrats desperately want.
Where is there a difference in conviction critera between removal and disqualification? No such distinction is made within Article I Sec. III.
The constitution says that an officer "shall be removed from Office on Impeachment' - not that he shall be impeached for various offenses. Because removal is the object of impeachment, once the officer is no longer in office the case is moot, regardless of when the proceedings begin.
The Constitution also says other things about impeachment which renders your argument laughably wrong, and intellectually dishonest.
How is it intellectually dishonest? The constitution refers to impeachment as a means to an end - removal. There is no provision that says there is a general power of impeachment. Once removed, the constitution provides that the person is subject to the full expanse of civil and criminal liability. There are those who think the 14th amendment provides another remedy. Given all those liabilities, why would it be thought to be important to conduct a trial for someone no longer in office?
Keep reading.
Maybe you'll figure out the other punishment that impeachment provides for.
Maybe not.
But, Bernard11, that impeachment died when that Congress dissolved. The *current* House has to impeach him before the current Senate can try him...
The *current* (117th) House already did.
https://www.congress.gov/117/bills/hres24/BILLS-117hres24ih.pdf
But that impeachment died -- the House Managers are members of a DIFFERENT Congress...
Huh? You do know that the Congressional term begins on the 3rd of January, right?
Can you imagine a subsequent Republican house/senate choosing to settle scores by going through and impeaching every single democrat to have served in office (can they impeach the dead too?)?
Go for it. If there are 67 votes to convict the person probably deserves it, and if not it's probably the least harmful thing those Congresscritters could be doing with their time.
Getting 67 votes to convict a slave holder should not be that difficult in the current climate.
Getting the current Republican Party to nominate slaveholders for public office would be a piece of cake.
Remember, China joe* is going to put y'all back in chains.
A stupid meaningless snark.
An easy way to tell if the person arguing against impeaching Trump is being serious or is a Trump cult follower is this: do they think Trump did anything seriously wrong? Mind you, not impeachable necessarily, but seriously wrong. They see nothing problematic with his post election behavior, indeed, they don't see anything much wrong with what happened on the 6th, so they can say silly things like 'choosing to settle scores...by impeaching.'
Some extraordinary shit went down post election and especially Jan. 6th. If someone can't admit that then they're just not being serious to begin with (note: you can easily admit some extraordinary shit went down, at least on just the 6th, and still make serious arguments against impeachment, but note these people don't do this).
It seems, btw, that this is what made Trump's legal team leave recently. They, quite smartly, wanted to argue acknowledging some serious shit went down but that this doesn't equate to or justify impeaching Trump for a variety of serious reasons. But Trump, being what he is, wants to go further and minimize/justify what went down. So, again, there's the tell.
I'm not clear what you men by "seriously wrong" here. You seem to be trying to frame things so that you either admit Trump is guilty as charged, or you're some kind of 'cultist'.
He's done things I don't approve of, but the charges against him are crazy.
No. You can believe that Trump's allegations of voter fraud tended to be laughable (they did tend to be, this is why even Trump judges were like 'good f*cking grief), that his rhetoric about this was too hyperbolic, that he could have reacted to the insurrection better, that his efforts past the safe harbor date or past the state electors casting their votes were wrong, that his leaning on state officials to 'find votes' was egregious' and YET make serious arguments that impeachment is wrong (I myself think that while impeachment is *warranted* that censure was more appropriate, I said that when the 6th went down actually). You can argue he's not an officer (then or now), you can argue he didn't actually cause the insurrection, you can argue he has to be blamed for a crime in the code, you can argue this just further divides the country, etc.
My argument is what you can't do is start with 'hey, Trump didn't do anything that's a big deal, this is just and only could be about politics and the evilness of the Democrats' and then go to those things. A serious person would acknowledge 'yeah, his claims about election fraud tended to be silly, his rhetoric overblown, his leaning on officials was *at least* a bad look, etc.,' and then go to those things.
Note Trump is probably an incredible egoist who clearly wants to run again and he thinks any admission of mistake is wrong (he thinks this to almost laughable degree, see his quotes on this), so he just *can't* make those arguments (even though his recently quite law team probably quite smartly wanted him to go that route), even if, to paraphrase No Country for Old Men, there would be more dignity (and sense) to it. So when his defenders take that same route I really think that's a tell they are in his pocket.
Even someone as dim witted as Queen should have been aware when Trump was impeached there was no chance of getting a conviction in a Senate trial.
That became embarrassingly clear when Paul got 45 Senators to vote against the trial; not to mention a couple of dems may well vote against conviction along with maybe some of the five pubs that voted for a trial.
This is where you should start; knowing that charging (impeachment) is a waste of time if you know the chances of conviction are nil.
What I can argue is that what Trump did was no worse than what dozens of Democratic office holders did last year in respect to the Antifa/BLM riots. Less egregious, even. And what effort has been made to remove THEM from office? None.
That tells me it's political.
What exactly did Democratic office holders do last year? A few video clips showing them inciting the "mob" would demonstrate your point.
Incitement? You had office holders providing insurrectionists with material aid. Ordering police to not arrest them while they were committing criminal acts like arson.
Brett Bellmore : He’s done things I don’t approve of, but the charges against him are crazy.
He attempted to sabotage a U.S. presidential election because he lost. Nothing remotely similar has happened in this country's history. He told his followers crude ugly inflammatory lies, feeding them a constant diet of agitprop for two months straight. He pressured state legislators to change certified vote tallies. He contacted junior election officials directly - bypassing their superiors in state government - to insist they support fraud allegations they'd already rejected.
He asked the acting head of the Justice Department to send a letter to Georgia, demanding they revoke their certification. The "reason" given was an investigation into election fraud that didn't exist - it was a total lie. After the DOJ head refused, it took the threat of mass resignations to keep Trump from firing him in favor of a flunky who would.
He filed scores of junk lawsuits just for noise. No one even tried to disguise their vacuity. He demanded the Vice President prompt a constitutional crisis by a clearly illegal act, and then sicced a bloodthirsty mod after him when Pence refused.
People connected with his campaign paid to organize and support a mob brought to Washington specifically to disrupt the election certification. As they rioted thru the U.S. Capitol, Trump watched the mayhem on television with approval, refusing to take calls from congressmen trapped inside the building. Aides had to beg him to make even a milquetoast plea asking his followers to back off.
So, yeah Brett, you have to be a cultist not to understand the damage your cult god has done this country since Election Day. Your shtick is to pretend everything begins & ends with Trump's speech on 06Jan.
But Trump's mob was formed by weeks of Big Lie propaganda, and it was formed for a purpose. It was brought to DC in a last-ditch effort to block certification of the election Trump lost.
Seems you've lost track of what is & isn't "crazy", Brett....
Repeating crazy charges doesn't make them sane.
This from someone who keeps saying that election laws were violated even though no election laws were violated.
Trashed ballots in Pennsylvania, illegally accepted ballots in Virginia, and more. I expect next you will tell us how Trump colluded with Russia.
What "illegally accepted ballots in Virginia"? What "trashed ballots in Pennsylvania," unless you mean the nine whole ballots that some temp employee mistakenly threw out in September, seven of which apparently were for Trump? What "and more"?
grb.
"Nothing remotely similar has happened in this country’s history. "
Did you forget about the Civil War?
It would have been extraordinary once but after seeing months of riots a lot worse than that on the nightly news, doesn’t seem extraordinary anymore. I didn’t support Trumps efforts to reverse the electoral college votes, because I never saw enough evidence to support it, but I did and do support post election audits to make sure. Trumps claims were out of bounds, but after he faced years of investigations using wild completely unsupported claims of Russian interference and collusion, I’m not willing to single out Trump for his unsupported claims.
Yeah none of what you cited was his fault, poor little helpless Donny!
It was the Senate, not Trump, that strategically choose [sic] to delay the start of the process until he left office.
Considering that the House didn't transmit the articles of impeachment to the Senate until January 25, this doesn't seem like the whole story.
Had Mitch said he would start the trial before the 20th the House would have send the articles over much quicker.
Silly comment since the House could not have sent the articles of impeachment to the Senate until the Senate was in session. While it might have been possible to get the Senate back in session that would have been a tall order and opened up a whole different can of worms.
The best that could be hoped for was a short Senate session the day before Biden was sworn in when the articles of impeachment could have been transmitted; but it would have required good timing as the Senate session was basically house keeping.
George,
Your correct. It was the House that decided to delay the proceedings so that the Senate would be D controlled. But of course that is a non-partisan reason.
It's incredibly far fetched to argue that merely resigning an office is a get of punishment free card for the possible consequences of an impeachment conviction.
You honestly think the idea was to only bar people from future office if they don't resign or otherwise leave office before conviction? And to provide no consequence at all for all offenses committed before an end of term too close to the end for a proceeding to be completed? That's like avoiding criminal punishment because you cease an ongoing crime that relies on status. Like a private citizen can't be punished under securities laws for making non-libelous misleading claims about a company, but a corporate officer of that company can. This then would be the equivalent of ruling you can't punish them for misleading claims made while being an officer if they merely quit the job before a jury can return a guilty verdict, even though the underlying action was still there, and the punishment extends beyond being able to commit the crime again.
That's an extremely dubious argument. Especially since proceedings were initiated while in office, so this isn't a situation where you're entirely going after someone retroactively like if they left office even before proceedings started.
Terrible argument.
A person leaving office is subject to the full expanse of civil and criminal liability. That was the remedy provided by the constitution. And if the 14th amendment is appropriate, that is another remedy. Barring someone from running for office again is some great penalty that exceeds those other remedies?
At the time of the 14th Amendment, was there any support for the proposition that a person *still* in office was not subject to the full expanse of civil and criminal liability? I thought that the sole reason for this current view was a very recent (by historical standards) untested OLC opinion letter.
Since the Founders et al did not contemplate a president being or not being a defendant while still in office (at least, nothing in the Constitution addresses this), I'm reluctant to give much weight to your argument.
"As can be seen in the case of Richard Nixon, it does little or nothing to remove the public stain of impeachment proceedings, which the Framers recognized was perhaps their greatest effect."
On the contrary- they realized that the stain of impeachment proceedings might *not* be sufficient to prevent an individual from running for- and winning- public office again, which is why they enabled the Senate to prevent precisely that. As a reminder- there is an actual member of Congress, right now, who while a judge was impeached by the House, convicted by the Senate, and yet was elected to Congress- it's clear that the stain is insufficient in at least some cases.
" It would be like prosecuting dead people for crimes, and punishing their estates with fines, because otherwise people could "escape accountability" by committing suicide."
If dead people could rise again, sure. But there is nothing preventing them from acquiring office again. Moreover, if part of the point is the tarnishing of reputation that impeachment brings, then presumably we should allow it precisely to tarnish reputations.
"Moreover, in the case of presidents, leaving office immediately opens them up to criminal prosecution."
This presumes that a) the activity of said president precisely matches a statutory crime, and b) that the president can and will be convicted by a jury working on a standard of beyond reasonable doubt. But impeachment is a political remedy- part of the point is that the President, or a judge, can do something sufficiently *bad* in the eyes of Congress to deserve being impeached and convicted and removed from office without actually committing a crime, and that even if they did commit a crime, that it does not require a unanimous conviction and that it does not require a standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.
Which member of Congress is serving after impeachment?
Alcee Hastings, who was impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate.
If impeachment is partisan enough to begin with, it caries no 'stain' with anyone who didn't already think the defendant stained. This is a natural consequence of proceeding with charges only the President's political enemies find credible.
In this case, Trump being an outsider, some of those political enemies are within the Republican Party. But the principal still applies.
Brett,
I think you meant to write, "...This is a natural consequence of proceeding with charges that only whores for the President find not credible."
But temple whores. eh Brett? Serving their cult the only way they know how....
Some run around "the Vote of The People" is everything, and woe be to those who override it.
This would not be me, but I am not arguing and failing to convince the supermajority aka the bulk of the president's supporters, that his behavior is that bad.
Beware the masses who are so righteous they censor others who don't heil hitler on censoring the opposition.
Trump's gone, congratulations. One unconstitutional side down, one to go.
This is a natural consequence of proceeding with charges only the President’s political enemies find credible.
Among other problems with this line of reasoning, in some cases you will have causation backwards. Serious misconduct can create enemies.
And of course I can make the mirror image argument. The only people who refuse to admit the charges are credible are Trump cultists.
You accuse those on one team of ignoring the (lack of) substance of the charges, and being motivated only by their emotional reaction to Trump. Just as confidently, I make the mirror claim about his defenders. They will accept no charges against Trump, not even a 5th Avenue murder.
Indeed, they will hardly accept the slightest criticism. Everything he did was Perfect.
Indeed :
1. It was a "perfect" call extorting campaign assistance from Ukraine
2. It was a "perfect" call telling the Georgia gov how many votes to produce.
3. It was a "perfect" riot (just a little unruly)
Say all you guys here who will pick up a pro-Trump argument no matter what it is? It turns out Trump needs a new team of lawyers. Can we scrape that up from the usual posters here? You know who you are.
So it seems the last team doesn't want to try and prove there was election fraud so that Trump isn't responsible for everyone being mad enough about it to riot at the Capitol building and try and kill people. Imagine that.
They wanted to go with the defense that the trial is unconstitutional. That's the topic here! So how about it?
But be sure you get paid up front. Their is precedent for Trump not paying his lawyers, or any other creditor.
It is apparently difficult to find counsel who won't desert you, once threats to end the career of anybody willing to do it become routine.
Quite a change from early American attitudes towards the right to counsel.
This is literally only happening to Trump.
Maybe it's not threats.
It is NOT only happening to Trump. Remember, Parler's law firm dumped them in mid-litigation, too.
In any case, "First they came for..." I take it that you're not concerned until someone you like is a victim of these tactics?
So I assume you now have a newfound appreciation for the Civil Rights Act?
Parler claimed their lawyer abandoned them for partisan reasons. That's not clearly true. Certainly nothing about intimidation.
Plus they got another lawyer no prob.
It looks more like Parler and Trump are pushing for arguments that are incorrect in fact or law.
Threats to their careers you say?
Fox News: South Carolina lawyers Butch Bowers and Deborah Barbier and former federal prosecutors Greg Harris, Johnny Gasser and Josh Howard had left the defense team by Saturday, a source said, calling it a mutual decision.
The source said the lawyers left over a difference of opinion on the direction of the defense's argument.
Another anonymous source told the Associated Press Bowers and Barbier left because Trump wanted them to make election fraud allegations during the trial.
Yes, you can look up the cases as easily as anyone: Practically every lawyer who didn't voluntarily jump ship from Trump has been threatened with disbarment. People are trying to get members of Congress disbarred based on votes!
Meanwhile Clinesmith pleads guilty to criminally falsifying evidence in a legal proceeding to hurt Trump, and no disbarment for him.
It's a clear push to deny him representation by intimidation.
So it sounds like the argument is this: If you are a president you are immune to all consequences of any crime whatever as long as you time it right.
Rule 1: Sitting president cannot be charged with a crime. That isn't actually a law but we are acting like it is.
Rule 2: Even if impeached while still in office, the former president cannot be tried because he is no longer in office.
All in the timing I see. So with these rules a president can commit any crime at all while in office, resign that day, and be totally immune from any legal consequence.
Rule 3: If it is a Democrat is or was in office, forget all the foregoing and repeat "nobody is above the law" constantly on Fox News.
Good grief. Read the impeachment clauses, why don't you? If you can identify a crime, prosecute away. Trump has no immunity from prosecution,
Mean tweets
Bad orange color.
Good lord this is terrible. I wondered where Kontorovich had been...
I'd been enjoying his absence. The problem for me is that even those few times I've agreed with him on his ultimate conclusion, his mode of argument is so off-putting by its transparent motivated reasoning and overstatement that I want to disagree. He is the opposite of persuasive. His posts are mere advocacy, without a hint of honest analysis. Here he ignores that the impeachment took place while Trump was in office and argues against non-existent, or at least irrelevant "Supporters of after-office impeachment." As usual, he misstates the question so he doesn't have to do the hard work of addressing the actual issue.
I certainly think that there are good faith, decent arguments on this issue on both sides (something Kontorovich can never bring himself to concede in any post of his I can remember), though I think the better view is that once impeached, a trial may be had. I would agree that the House could not constitutionally impeach a former officer, but that is not the case here.
Questions for Professor Kontorovich:
1. Given that the impeachment resolution declaring him impeachef was passed while President Trump was still in office, was he in fact impeached retrosctively? Why? Why does your argument about retrosctive impeachments apply here?
2. If President Trump was in fact impeached while still in office (and hence lawfully impeached), why can’t the Senate nonetheless try him after he leaves ? Why doesn’t its sole power to try “all” impeachments also include this case?
Thanks.
Impeachment occurs when the Senate gets the bill passed by the House.
They got it after 1/20.
Ergo, he was not President when impeached.
The whole thing is stupid and opining about a stupid show trial is also stupid.
Spending two months trying to sabotage a U.S. election because you're a butt-hurt man-child baby who can't accept defeat is stupid. When it involves banana-republic scheming at DOJ, pressuring state officials to change vote numbers, and weeks of Big Lie propaganda without any factual basis, then it goes well beyond stupid.
It goes to the core constitutional responsibility to accept a peaceful & orderly transfer of power.
And that's before you bring a mob to the capitol to block the certification of an election....
I remember another candidate who was so butthurt over an election she released a dossier of lies, and her party spent two years insisting Trump colluded with the Russians.
There was rich irony in the fact that the person who pushed Russian disinformation, and oversaw the sale of US national security resources to a Russian company, keeps claiming that her political opponents are the Russian assets. It's projection all the way down.
Will you do me a favor, Michael? Please explain to your complete understanding just how Clinton "oversaw the sale of US national security resources to a Russian company". Spare no detail, if you will.
Why? Because I want the ensuing opportunity of making you look foolish. I can pretty much guarantee you won't get a single fact right.
Did she hold office at the time? No? So she couldn't have been impeached for it, and therefore has zero relevance to this conversation, and is only being used to derail a discussion of Trump? Got it.
Quite. Just charge Trump with treason, hold a brief trial to establish the facts are as we all know them to be, and then he goes on death row.
If an impeachment is a purely political act, then why should law bloggers care about its legal aspects? It's not like the Supreme Court is going to involve itself in the outcome. Shoot, its not even going to participate in its execution in the first place.
Why then is this such a hot topic here on the VC? I mean it comes up almost daily. It makes one wonder.
The only possible rationale I can figure here is that the VC bloggers are NOT expressing legal opinions, but political ones, using the law only as a way to frame their opining -- "lawfare", as I believe this is called.
Basically
There's this idea that if something is left to the legislature or executive is must be a 'purely political' act devoid of any regard for the Constitution's provisions and principles. That's strange, the legislature and executive take oaths to the Constitution as judges/justices do. They are supposed to take the Constitution seriously even if a Court is not empowered by it to police them on that matter.
Even if you want to go full post-modernist well, the American public likes the Constitution overall, politicians who blatantly ignore what it seems to say likely take a political hit.
So, either way it's legitimate and important for experts on the Constitution to opine on these matters.
Ok, but the Court's only role in our system is to adjudicate the law, not write the law. The body that will try an impeachment is already filled with law-makers, and those opinions are the ones that count in this process. Law professors and the Courts really aren't needed (or even wanted, I should think) at this stage of crafting the law.
I think the minor role of the legal system is best reflected by the minor role which is given to the Courts in an impeachment, which is to merely preside over the proceedings -- an essentially administrative function only.
And it is significant that in this particular impeachment, reportedly the Chief Justice won't even be doing that much. So, yes, "wholly political" is perfectly apt, I should think.
QA,
Your argument is toothless with respect to the OP.
There is a clear remedy that is fully without impediment. The DoJ prosecute in an Art. iii Court. If DJT is found guilty, the orange suit will match his orange hair.
At this stage all the rest has become a show trail which is the only explanation for Nancy decided to wait to transmit the Article of impeachment.
If that’s the case why would the Chief Justice preside in an impeachment, and why would lawyers present the President’s case.
It’s a semi-legal procedure based on the constitution and precedent. Seems like lawyers have a lot of expertise in those areas.
Those are merely administrative functions, though. It doesn't make sense to be opining on mere process. What's there to say about it?
"While barring someone from office is one of the punishments available in impeachment, nothing suggests it is so essential...."
It is essential -- a matter of many people's life and death -- that Trump not become president in 2024.
"It would be like prosecuting dead people for crimes, and punishing their estates with fines, because otherwise people could 'escape accountability' by committing suicide." That analogy is risible. If anyone committed suicide to escape accountability, there would be no danger that he'd commit another crime or that he'd run for president in 2024. If a president resigned, or if McConnell refused to hold a trial while he was in office, and he could thereby escape accountability, there would be a danger that he'd run for president in 2024.
Most real Americans feel the opposite. The neo-Marxists must be stopped to save our nation.
I presume "neo-Marxist" is meant to disguise you're clueless what Marxism is?
^ Dumb partisan storyteller overload.
"Dumb partisan "
Remember, Ben is *so* worried about division and enmity in our polity!
So, straight-up "lawfare", then. Your argument is that it is fine to use impeachment as a weapon so your Party won't have to beat him at the ballot box in 2024.
Thought so.
Here's a thought: let the people decide in a fair and open election. How about that?
There is nothing wrong with using constitutional provisions, such as Article I, section 3, providing for disqualification for office, for the purposes for which they were adopted. Furthermore, in this country, the people do not decide in a fair and open election. Elections are not fair because twice in this century, the people's choice lost. Elections are not open because Republicans engage in voter suppression.
Heather Cox Richardson reports this morning: "According to the Brennan Center, which tracks voting rights, 28 states have put forward more than 100 bills to limit voting. Arizona, Georgia, and Pennsylvania, whose voters chose Biden this year after going for Trump in 2016, all have introduced plans to lower voting rates. So have other states like Texas, which have voted Republican in recent years but show signs of turning blue." So, please, no more about "fair and open elections."
Mostly an attempt to undo the extra-legislative 'changes' to election laws we saw last year, and close the door to it happening again.
Democrats are mounting a push to make their illegal rules changes permanent, and characterizing opposition as 'vote suppression'.
Democrats are mounting a push to make their illegal rules changes permanent, and characterizing opposition as ‘vote suppression’.
You're full of shit. Completely.
1. The changes weren't illegal.
2. They didn't generate fraud.
2. The Republican efforts are absolutely vote suppression. No rational person can believe otherwise. They sometimes even admit that they can't win if they don't suppress voting.
The changes are also well beyond just the changes made this year.
Brett wants to believe, and so he does.
I just want to say that, as a Mozart fan, I like your name.
As an uncultured philistine who had to wiki that ref, thanks for acquainting me with that reference!
Can you tell me exactly what "to wiki" means? I would have googled. I just entered "Mozart sarcastro" into Wikipedia's search engine and got nothing.
By contrast, googling "Mozart sarcastro" brings up "Do you mean: mozart sarastro?" I'm not pushing google, however. I am just curious to know what wiki has to offer.
Yeah, I did Google -> wiki.
Google did indeed correct me, but that alone wasn't enough. I don't know Sarastro from Adam.
So I followed the correction to the wikipedia page.
This whole after the fact impeachment could really get out of hand. So challenging an election is suppression? How?
So now that impeachment doesn't have to be someone presently in office now what about those who questioned 200, 2004 and 2016? John Kerry questioned 2004. Can we boot his butt out based on his 2004 challenge?
Go ahead. See how it plays.
The 60 or so lawsuits challenging the black votes in the swing states -- attempting to get them thrown out, that is -- were attempts at voter suppression. But that's not what Trump is on trial for. He is on trial for trying to steal the election by asking the Georgia secretary of state to "find" votes and by inciting an insurrection to prevent the counting of Electoral votes.
Your second paragraph is not worth answering, because you don't really believe that any questioning that occurred in 2000, 2004, and 2016 was comparable to Trump's actions in this election, and you probably don't believe that readers of this blog are stupid enough to be fooled into thinking that they are comparable.
Actually the only article of impeachment is inciting insurrection. Not attempted vote fraud.
Apparently I was mistaken about the phone call to the Georgia secretary of state being one of the charges.
@Jarndyce: No, that phone call is included, just not as a separate article of impeachment. https://www.congress.gov/117/bills/hres24/BILLS-117hres24ih.pdf
Good riddance to these lawyers. Pro Se defendants far outperform defense lawyers in criminal trials anyway.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-parts-ways-with-five-lawyers-handling-impeachment-defense/ar-BB1dfAJr
Hypo: say a President (or, more likely, a minor office holder subject to impeachment), after leaving office, properly renounces her citizenship before an ambassador and moves to Tibet to meditate on higher things. Would the Senate, sitting as the High Court, have criminal jurisdiction over them, even if no violations of US public law were alleged?
The character of the process is to judge the conduct of office, and it recognizes that high crimes are sometimes distinct from the public law. (In the history of the development of criminal law, Treason developed separate from felony -- a felony is a foul in the game, but treason is a foul against the game.)
According to the OED, "impeach" traces from L. "impedicare," to fetter at the feet. (Though later incorrectly associated with impetere, to attack.) The fettering is of the conduct of office, not of general citizenship. In the Founders' arrangement, the American analogue to the Commons petitions the upper chamber, alleging misconduct, and the upper chamber judges the fettered officeholder.
Otherwise, it's a Bill of Attainder, something then well within the powers of of the UK Parliament, but a tactic specifically excluded from the American system.
Mr. D.
To start with the first paragraph:
Would the Senate, sitting as the High Court, have criminal jurisdiction over them, even if no violations of US public law were alleged?
The Senate does not have criminal jurisdiction over anybody.
...and I'm not even going to bother with the dozens of other stupid statements in your comments.
In point of fact, it is a criminal trial, and the Senate, sitting as the High Court, like any criminal court, must have jurisdiction.
Mr. D.
A correction here. By not impeaching Trump until January 25, 2021, it is the House, rather than either the Senate or Trump, that strategically chose to delay the start of the process until Trump was a private citizen.
(As is established by both English practice prior to independence and every Federal impeachment in the 18th and 19th Century, a person is impeached not when the authorizing vote is made, but when the charge is transmitted to the trying body.)
Mitch was clear that there would be no trial before Trump leaves. If he would have been willing to hold the trial, the House would have sent over the articles much sooner.
Um, so what? Pointing fingers at someone else for a deadline you freely and voluntarily chose to blow doesn't work in any other context.
It works in every context.
You're a laugh a minute as always, Cap'n. Point me to your tip jar and I'll make sure to leave something special.
There was no deadline. No matter when the House submitted the articles, the Senate would have done nothing.
You're still skirting the "so what?" part. If the House needed to -- and didn't -- transmit the articles while Trump was still in office, it would be for reasons that Mitch McConnell's behavior (actually his prediction of his future behavior, but no matter) could not alter.
So what? No declaration from the Senate or its leadership about the conduct of a trial in any way prevented the House from actually impeaching Trump while he was still president. Rather, the House voluntarily chose to wait until he was a private citizen.
So you're saying there's no need to impeach, Trump can just be charged with treason?
His supporters to seem to be taking a very odd line here.
Not with treason Dave. With conspiracy to incite insurrection. That is the only charge with half a chance.
Donald Trump is hated by many for undermining constitutional norms. But the desire to remove his influence from politics should not be turned into an occasion for doing the same.
They don't care about the constitution, only about vindictiveness and preserving the swamp as their cornucopia of corrupt wealth and power.
Ben, Ben, what happened to your (certainly very sincere!) devotion to reducing division and enmity in our polity? Your comments here (which are like everything you posted before you took that stance) might make people think that position was, well, some parroted insincerity of the moment to defend your cult leader. Just looking out for ya my bud!
From the article:
"We should not pretend that there are authoritative constitutional answers here—just weaker and stronger interpretations."
OK, so how about allowing only sitting officeholders to be impeached, but allowing the impeachment trial to be conducted, or continued, if the impeached official leaves office after impeachment?
That would deal with the situation - described in the article - of someone being impeached 50 years or whatever after the fact.
Once we concede - as the article comes close to doing - that the Senate can retain jurisdiction if an official resigns strategically just before the vote on guilt - then we've conceded that a person doesn't have to be in office for the whole trial.
So why not just say he* has to be in office at the time the articles are exhibited against him, or the House votes impeachment, and it's irrelevant whether for jurisdictional purposes he quits or his term expires after that? Either method avoids Senate debate over whether a person left office for strategic reasons.
*Our sexist Congress has yet to impeach a woman.
As for whether Trump is guilty under the article of impeachment, I don't think he is, and it's not necessary to go into jurisdictional issues to get him acquitted.
That's apparently the main point of contention between Trump and his departing lawyers. He wants an actual innocence defense, and they wanted a procedural defense.
This may be his last chance to get the argument that he's genuinely innocent of the charges out before the public, before the left's iron curtain of censorship closes completely.
But the lawyers see a defense 45 Senators have already voted to accept as a no-brainer. And have to worry that publicly asserting his innocence would lead to serious personal retaliation. There's already been public talk about disbarring anyone willing to defend him.
This may be his last chance to get the argument that he’s genuinely innocent of the charges out before the public, before the left’s iron curtain of censorship closes completely.
Delusional.
He has plenty of outlets for his lies.
"Actual innocence?" Don't make me laugh. The reason 45 R Senators jumped on the dubious Constitutional argument is that they are looking for a way to avoid declaring him innocent.
Bernard,
If you are convinced that he is guilty, press for prosecution. That is the only real "accountability" for the Orange Clown.
The Brandenberg test for incitement is a high bar in a criminal trial that does not apply to a Senate trial for impeachment.
Maybe Samuel Chase identified as a woman.
I don't understand why it matters. If an office holder leaves office, they don't need to be impeached. They're subject to criminal prosecution just like any other private citizen.
For the 1 millionth time: not all impeachable offences are also crimes.
The equivocation never ends.
"We must impeach him over these crimes!"
"If you think he committed crimes, prosecute him."
"Impeachment isn't limited to crimes!"
"Well, if it's just political, why should we take it seriously?"
"Don't you care about the crimes?"
Relating to Jan 6th, who said crimes, Brett? From what I've seen, only the right, looking for political cover.
Everyone else was pretty quick to call it unfit.
Is disqualification-through-impeachment reviewable by the courts?
I mean, there's no precedent to point to in order to answer that question, but it doesn't seem like it would be. What would be the issue being reviewed?
No, it is reviewable. Not when the senate votes, but when the candidate files for election and an official refuses to put him on the ballot he can sue the official and the court will make a ruling. You have a clear injury to provide standing. And the court won’t say oh just do whatever, it’s not reviewable. If the SOS or clerk puts the candidate on the ballot, an opposing candidate would probably have standing too.
It also provides a basis for them to challenge counting any EC votes he gets, so that they can install the Democrat in office even if he wins the election.
Remember: Challenging EC votes is sedition if Republicans do it, but just part of the process when Democrats do it.
Mind, they're going to do that regardless of his acquittal, that's why they've been talking about Section 3 of the 14th amendment.
Apparently it is not:
https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/112803/nixon-v-united-states/
Does that answer the question? Nixon was not disqualified.
According to his Volokh Conspiracy bio, Eugene Kontorovich "is one of the world’s preeminent experts on universal jurisdiction and maritime piracy, as well as international law and the Israel-Arab conflict."
When impeachment is the trending topic, suddenly everyone with a law degree is an impeachment expert.
Eugene Kontorovich, Pirate Lawyer. I like the sound of that.
Lawyers and law degrees are not needed to be impeachment experts. You only need to be an elected representative of the people to be one.
Lawyers have nothing particularly useful in their training or their experience to help this situation. In fact, perhaps the opposite.
Nothing like mouthing your slur before advancing a minimal snark.
I think that Trump should be estopped from even making the constitutional argument until he agrees he lost the election. If he didn't lose the election, all agree he is impeachable. He can't have it both ways. Recent reports suggest he tossed his legal team because they wouldn't present his "landslide win" as a defense.
This goes to his problem with obtaining (ethical) lawyers generally. No lawyer can ethically represent a client who insists on lying under oath and/or who insists on a legal strategy which is ethically unsupportable.
I figured partisanship would provide a 30-1 cushion for Trump in the Senate.
Then I heard he hired Bruce Castor.
That makes it 10-1.
If he lands Blackman, this could get interesting.
"We will disbar you if you try to argue that your client is innocent!" is not a good look. Seriously, it isn't.
But we're seeing more and more of this over the last couple of years: "We will punish you for making arguments we don't want made." "Error has no rights." "Any platform willing to allow speech we disagree with must be shut down, by any means necessary."
We're told impeachment is a political matter, that the charges don't have to be crimes, the prosecution doesn't have to afford the defense due process, hearsay is admissible, on and on in that vein.
But the defense will be held to only what a court would allow, eh? The prosecution may be political, but the defense is purely legal?
I believe a person is entitled to spout lies and nonsense on which that person wishes to rely at trial -- but is not entitled to have a (legitimate) lawyer participate knowingly in fraud.
Disaffected, poorly informed people should probably leave this debate to others.
Disaffected, poorly informed people should probably leave this debate to others.
And yet, here you are.
I think that Trump should be estopped from even making the constitutional argument
That's unbelievably dumb.
I think that Trump should be estopped from even making the constitutional argument
until he agrees he lost the election. If he didn’t lose the election, all agree he is impeachable. He can’t have it both ways.
And you managed to say something even more spectacularly dumb in the very next breath. Trump packed his stuff and left the White House, and even called the new office he set up in Florida the "Office of the Former President". He acknowledges that he's no longer POTUS, no matter what he might also want to say about why.
Actually, the argument fails on a more basic level. If the Senate cannot constitutionally try the impeachment, it does not matter whether Trump may make the argument or not. One cannot waive what is in essence subject matter jurisdiction.
And it wasn't a dumb argument; it was a joke. I understand that in this environment, where legal jokes such as "Pence can just refuse to certify the election" or "the election should be overturned because of a vast international conspiracy for which there is no evidence for and mountains of evidence against" or "Texas can sue other states to make them decertify their election results" are immediately taken seriously, made it hard to discern.
But don't you worry. As I understand it, the current not dumb, perfectly reasonable Trump-endorsed GOP position is that JFK, Jr will soon return from the dead to protect you from those Jewish lasers from outer space. You can rest easy.
And it wasn’t a dumb argument; it was a joke.
Jokes involve one or more humorous elements. Your dumb argument contained precisely zero such elements.
JFK, Jr will soon return from the dead to protect you from those Jewish lasers from outer space
That's even more pathetic than your piss-poor attempt to pretend that your dumb argument wasn't actually an argument.
These arguments are weak because they fail to show why convicting Trump after he leaves office would be unconstitutional. The fact that he was impeached while in office seems to *at least* partially satisfy the "civil officers of the United States" phrase. It's fine to point out weaknesses in arguments for impeachment, but that won't help much if the Senate goes ahead and convicts him. SCOTUS will be very unlikely to even agree to hear the case. We're at the top of the food chain here, there's no appealing an impeachment conviction.
Hypothetically speaking, let's say they impeach Trump and convict him.
Then hypothetically, Trump runs for President again in 2024, wins the nomination, and wins the popular vote and electoral college.
What happens then?
Technically speaking, the only restrictions on being President are outlined in article 2. And if a President is impeached, then reelected ANYWAY, what happens?
Technically speaking, being impeached and voted as disqualified from holding the office in the future says you're completely wrong as usual.
Thou art mistaken, methinks. Impeachment does not bar someone from elective office, to wit: Alcee Hastings.
Sixty seconds of research and you'd have avoided looking like a fool.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcee_Hastings
Impeached and convicted, but not voted to be disqualified from holding future positions.
A convict serving a sentence can't run for office. But Trump potentially faces the death penalty, in which case he'd be even less likely to run.
Where did you get that idea?
But Trump potentially faces the death penalty
What in the hell are you babbling about?
They're fantasizing about bringing him up on treason charges.
Define "They."
(If you mean: online Russian trolls, or extremists on the fringe 1% here in America . . . then I agree with you)
I'm pretty sure Davedave was elected the Speaker for the Liberals in our last secret cabal meeting.
"They" = "People saying Trump faces the death penalty"
I thought that was obvious from the context; I was explaining what DaveDave was raving about.
Define “They.”
It would appear that the word, as used, refers to those who think Trump is vulnerable to one or more charges of treason...like the poster who was being responded to. That doesn't seem too difficult to figure out, does it?
"It would be like prosecuting dead people for crimes, and punishing their estates with fines, because otherwise people could "escape accountability" by committing suicide."
As was very common in Roman times, hence "to fall on one’s sword."
This article does not talk about the very real question of if an officer of the United States can even resign. There was a debate about whether Nixon could resign, and it was largely "accepted" that he did because no one wanted to challenge the resignation.
In the event the President resigned, I think the simple fix is the Senate does not accept the resignation as valid and continues on with the trial.
". . . the Senate does not accept the resignation. . . . "
They don't have that constitutional authority and the SC would roundly reject their attempt if challenged.
I am quite certain that there's no real question about that, the 13th amendment prohibiting slavery and all that. Officers of the U.S. resign all the time. Has anyone ever suggested a cabinet position is for life? Even if you really meant the top spots only, Calhoun resigned in 1832.
As one of the VC's faithful non-lawyer readers, let me point out that legal thinking has an extremely narrow scope of usefulness. Outside of that scope, applying it can be downright destructive -- and, it is rarely welcomed.
We don't want you to /make/ our laws, we want you to judge only how well they are /applied/. This is an essential distinction.
Umpires cannot and never should make rules. They just call balls and strikes, as defined by other stakeholders.
In the case of impeachments, introducing extraneous legal opinions and reasoning just confuses the issue. The body which needs to perform the job is already in charge of the job.
"The Sixth Amendment's requirement of a jury trial is broad and clear. The basic rules of criminal law require construing legal uncertainties in favor of a defendant."
OOOOH you were so close.
As you mentioned, there's no clear law on impeachment trials.
But you're dead wrong bring 6A into the argument.
The only reason we're debating this is because of TDS. Nixon was not impeached after the fact because people were a lot smarter back then.
We could impeach Obama. He did a lot more incitement in the various BLM racial riot flareups than Trump ever did. He spouted lies in regards top those incidents and knowingly spouted lies until it was painfully obvious regarding Benghazi.
But if we have an R House in 2022 we could very well have these arguments right?
TDS makes folks really really dumb!
Look, Nixon resigned because a bipartisan group of Senators visited him to tell him he'd be impeached AND convicted otherwise. Because he was directly implicated in objectively illegal conduct.
Nothing like that happened with Clinton, because while he, too, was directly implicated in objectively criminal acts, only one party cared, so there was no prospect of conviction.
In Trump's case resignation was never on offer because neither crime nor bipartisan backing for impeachment were present, so acquittal was and is inevitable.
And if you think I'm wrong about the absence of a crime, prove it in a court of law.
Nixon destroyed evidence and tried to cover stuff up same as Hillary Clinton so I guess we could impeach her after the fact?
BUT, I think the main rationale for just letting Nixon go was that it was over. He was no longer president. Was it even discussed?
My comparison to Obama was based on inciting violence. I think its a good one. Neither Obama or Trump committed an impeachable offense IMO.
But if Trump did so did Obama.
Go for it.
Impeach Hillary. And Obama. Just go full partisan with it, just to show those Dems how they like it.
Sounds like a political winner to me!
Or maybe just not do it. Because its ridiculous. Can you read? Notice I conclude neither committed an impeachable offense. And neither should be impeached because they are not in office.
Your argument is entirely by analogy. Because this thing is dumb, this other thing is analogous and therefore also dumb.
The political viability between impeaching Trump and Obama/Hillary seems important to the political act that is impeachment. And that breaks that analogy.
I think most modern Presidents have committed impeachable offenses, and Trump is no exception, though he wasn't as bad in that regard as some.
Reagan? Iran-Contra.
Bush the Elder? Launched the BATF on the course to Ruby Ridge and Waco.
Carter? Eh, I guess he was just embarrassing.
Clinton? An embarrassment of riches, what couldn't he have been impeached over? I'd have done it over bombing that pharmaceutical plant.
Bush the Younger? Among other things, deliberately lying to Congress.
Obama? Operation Choke Point. Violating the War Powers act. Firing Hellfire missiles at civilians outside war zones, without even bothering to look who was at the target. (Just dumb luck he didn't bomb an orphanage.)
Trump? I guess you could make a case for impeachment over his diversions of funds to the wall. But you had to go with BS stuff, instead.
Does any of this really matter? Either Trump's impeachment needs to proceed so he can face criminal charges, or it doesn't, and he can be charged right away. Neither way does he escape prosecution. Impeachment or not, he committed treason and will face the penalties for doing so.
Insurrection isn't enough, now it's treason?
Well, as long as you're fantasizing, might as well convict him of being the Antichrist, too.
he committed treason
I'm always amazed (though I shouldn't be) by the number of people who love to toss around words, the meaning of which they are utterly ignorant.
"impeachment needs to proceed so he can face criminal charges"
What are you smoking?
The DoJ is fully empowered and capable of prosecuting Mr Trump right now. NOTHING is needed from the Senate to do so.
Darn those Framers for imagining that impeachment wouldn't be used as raw political theater. They probably thought that it would take actual malfeasance, and not wild supposition based solely on political party, to initiate the impeachment process.
Read a history book and you'll see how wrong you are.
Those guys were well established in political intrigue.
I'm pretty sure that Trump's words are a matter of public record, not "supposition."
Yes it is a matter of public record that he told them to protest peacefully, then later told them to peacefully go home.
There's supposition to the effect that this was a coded message directing them to riot.
Especially since the rioting occurred before Trump finished speaking in the first place.
Hey, that must have been a short speech if the only thing he said was "protest peacefully." Did it last five seconds? Or ten?
His two months of lies about the election being stolen, which provoked the attack, are a matter of public record.
Right. Plus his entire speech that morning, plus the speech of his fellow speakers that morning.
Trumpkins do this thing where Trump spends tens of thousands of words saying X, and 4 words saying "not X," and they pretend that the former didn't happen.
Yeah, I've read the entire speech. At no time did he tell anyone to riot.
Saying you're being robbed of your government right now by those people over there, and you should go over there and make them stop doesn't contain the magic words, so it's okay!
No one is buying that.
How very short sighted we have become.
"The primary argument in favor of using the impeachment process against former office holders is policy-based."
So is the argument against it. Maybe it's constitutional - reasonable minds might differ - but that doesn't mean it's a good idea or that we should set such a precedent. I'm not even convinced he broke the law. His words, while irresponsible, don't rise to the legal definition of incitement.
If you want to galvanize Trump's supporters, waste time on a Senate trial to remove him when he is already gone. The Senate won't convict, and Trump will come out on the other side looking like a persecuted man, the ultimate underdog, the guy who spoke truth to power and was attacked by Congress for doing so. That's how his supporters will see it, and it will lead to more ugly and hateful division, not less.
If their goal is to make Trump a martyr, by all means, go forth and hold the Senate trial. If they really want to move past the Trump era and the attendant discord, this is an odd way to do it.
The question is not if a former public official can be impeached. Trump was clearly impeached while still in office. The question is whether a former official can have a Senate trial. Given that the Senate tries "all impeachments" and Trump was unquestionably impeached, I am not sure why that is not the end of the discussion.
Charging documents received after 1/20. Ergo, Trump was not actually impeached.
That's easy. It's almost as if there haven't been a dozen or so VC posts about when someone is impeached.