The Volokh Conspiracy
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Anti-Riot Act Partly Upheld, Partly Struck Down
The Fourth Circuit decides a case involving defendants who violently participated in two white supremacist rallies in California and in the "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, but the logic applies equally to rioters of all stripes.
Yesterday's Fourth Circuit decision in U.S. v. Miselis, written by Judge Robert King and joined by Judges Albert Diaz and Allison Jones Rushing considered a facial First Amendment challenge to the Anti-Riot Act:
Whoever travels in interstate or foreign commerce or uses any facility of interstate or foreign commerce, including, but not limited to, the mail, telegraph, telephone, radio, or television, with intent—
(1) to incite a riot; or
(2) to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot; or
(3) to commit any act of violence in furtherance of a riot; or
(4) to aid or abet any person in inciting or participating in or carrying on a riot or committing any act of violence in furtherance of a riot;
and who either during the course of any such travel or use or thereafter performs or attempts to perform any other overt act for any purpose specified [above] … [s]hall be fined … or imprisoned not more than five years ….
"[T]o incite a riot", or "to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot", includes, but is not limited to, urging or instigating other persons to riot, but shall not be deemed to mean the mere oral or written (1) advocacy of ideas or (2) expression of belief, not involving advocacy of any act or acts of violence or assertion of the rightness of, or the right to commit, any such act or acts.
"Riot" is defined as a public disturbance involving "an act or acts of violence by one or more persons part of an assemblage of three or more persons, which act or acts shall constitute a clear and present danger of, or shall result in, damage or injury to the property of any other person or to the person of any other individual," or involving threats of such violence.
The court held (to oversimplify):
[A.] The "incite" prohibition (item 1) constitutionally applies when people travel or communicate with the intent to engage in constitutionally unprotected incitement, defined by Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969) to mean advocacy intended to and likely to promote an imminent riot. This covers things such as traveling to engage in actual incitement (e.g., going to some place with the plan to egg on a violent crowd), whether the incitement takes place or the plan is foiled before such incitement (in which case the behavior is constitutionally unprotected attempted incitement). The "instigating" provision is likewise valid, as a synonym for inciting.
[B.] The "organize" prohibition in item 2 is constitutional because it involves not just abstract advocacy but concrete orchestrating of criminal rioting. The best way of understanding this ruling, I think, is by analogy to U.S. v. Williams (2008), which held that specific solicitation of crime (as opposed to abstract advocacy) is constitutionally unprotected as speech integral to the underlying criminal conduct.
[C.] The "aid or abet" prohibition (item 4) is constitutional because it likewise involves not just abstract advocacy but concrete assistance (even if the assistance comes through speech) to criminal rioters. Here too U.S. v. Williams (2008) would be a good analogy. (The "commit any act of violence" provision wasn't challenged, but that's clearly constitutional).
But the court held other parts of the statute were unconstitutional:
[i.] The "promote" and "encourage" prohibition (item 2) and the "urging" provision are unconstitutional because they can extend to abstract advocacy of crime.
[ii.] Likewise, the "not involving advocacy of any act or acts of violence or assertion of the rightness of, or the right to commit, any such act or acts" provision suggests that advocacy of violence and assertion of the rightness of violence are prohibited, and that too is unconstitutional.
[iii.] The court also held that the words "promote," "encourage," "urging or," and "not involving advocacy of any act or acts of violence or assertion of the rightness of, or the right to commit, any such act or acts" should therefore be in effect deleted from the statute—something courts often do, under the name of "severing" unconstitutional provisions—and the remainder of the statute would be upheld.
The analysis generally seems right to me, though there is always a risk to criminalizing otherwise innocent behavior (such as travel or communication) because of the speaker's inferred purpose.
The decision came in the prosecution of white supremacists, but of course the same reasoning (both as to the partial validity of the statute and the partial invalidity) would equally apply to people connected to any other kinds of riots, whether antifa or anti-globalization or anything else.
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"would equally apply to people connected to any other kinds of riots, whether antifa or anti-globalization or anything else."
Why not, in the spirit of rejecting special pleading, identify BLM, the artist known as Burning, Looting, and Murdering?
Q: How do you turn a Civil Rights Activist into a White Supremacist?
A: Use the Find and Replace Button on Microsoft Word to Swap the words Black and White in the document.
https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/01b67dd63213a21ba063b3f1ae183b31e0e55a07/0_0_650_444/master/650.jpg?width=700&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&s=b62e55e1d197f9fe5288d73ee167890b
I don't get it. Can you explain your racebaiting?
Amos is saying civil rights activists are just reverse white supremacists.
Ergo black supremacists.
Which is a very old cry with a very racist legacy.
And actually quite true.
BLM are Black supremacists.
What do they want that is black supremecist?
The comments concerning race at a strikingly white, remarkably male, right-wing blog are always illuminating.
He's not saying that.
He's saying if a white person called for the same thing as these CRAs are, people would decry them as white supremacists.
That's not saying saying CRA's are really black supremacists.
1. You and Ed may need to have a discussion.
2. Yeah, arguing for white rights or white pride does raise some alarms that arguing for black rights or black pride does not. Do you see why that might be the case?
Now you're changing your argument.
First you say that Dr. Ed is declaring CRA as black supremacists.
Now you're saying that whites arguing for the same things as blacks is fundamentally problematic because they are white and somehow inferior or lesser than blacks or something.
I don't get it.
Lotta words you're putting into my mouth.
There are some policies that arguing for them as the majority is just dumb. You're basically arguing 'why can they say the N-Word and not me?'
Look at the The King of Mouth-word Stuffing crying about it now.
If you want to grant privilege to one group and withhold it from another because of their skin color, its easy to argue you are a supremacist.
Only if you're having fun with semantics, not if you exist in the real world.
You want to argue the current status of the N-word is black supremacist, good luck with that.
You're the only who is appearing talking about the black supremacist privilege to use certain words.
Everyone else seems to be talking about civil rights and how whites are seemingly excluded because of their skin color.
No, arguing for "white" rights does not raise alarm, at all, unless you are a racist.
Seems reasonable enough, actually.
Interesting that the Anti-Riot Act is part of the Civil Rights Act of 1968.
A lot of the anti-Klan acts are perfectly applicable to what's going on now. Masked people engaging in a violent reign of terror, with the cooperation of local government? Only the color of the hoods has really changed.
See? Sometimes we really do agree!
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/17/white-supremacists-militias-private-police-215498
2017? 3 years ago? is "Now"?
Sorry, forgot to filter by year. So many news stories about masked right-wing militias to choose from, that it can be difficult to make sure you get one from the right year...
This one is from January:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/authorities-brace-massive-gun-rights-rally-richmond-virginia/story?id=68328504
You mean the entirely peaceful 22,000 person rally, where there was no violence at all? No burnings, no riots, nothing?
I think there was one arrest, of a 21 year old for wearing a bandana across her face... So, I suppose there was "one" masked person. Who was arrested. And no violence.
And now she'd get arrested for NOT wearing a bandana across her face....
Yeah, to the extent people on the right also go around rioting and burning buildings, go after them, too. Not seeing a lot of that lately.
Fewer lynchings. Also lots more open large-scale protests versus nighttime raids targeted at individuals.
Also not oppressing a minority. Or anyone, really.
Yeah, Brett, your analogy sucks.
Well, not oppressing anyone, except the local business owners and people who are being threatened to leave their homes...
Except for them.
And of course, local politicians. They're being threatened. Even if they're black.
So, BLM...a bunch of mostly white protestors, threatening a black politician in her home. Hey, maybe they ARE oppressing minorities..
So not particular groups like the KKK, just...like general oppression scattered across some specific individuals.
Riots suck. But that's not oppression.
Really?
Someone kills you because they hate lawyers, are you any less dead?
Really?
Someone kills you because they hate lawyers, are you any less dead?
That is correct!
I am indeed arguing that riots are good and safe.
When I say BLM isn't like the KKK you should take it as a strong endorsement of everything it does.
And White Heterosexual Males aren't people so hence there is no oppression, either.
Yeah, I argue that all the time.
I'm not saying that BLM is perfectly identical to the KKK. I'm saying it's identical in the ways relevant to application of the anti-Klan acts. It's a violent interstate conspiracy in restraint of civil rights, perpetrated by people who go masked in order to avoid being identified while committing crimes.
That's why the Klan wore those hoods, after all. Not as a fashion statement, so that they could commit crimes in public without being identified for purposes of prosecution. Same reason the Antifa and BLM were wearing them before this Covid 19 thing started.
Now, mask mandates do interact interestingly with the anti-Klan acts, I'll grant that.
No. There was no fear of prosecution. They often were law enforcement. Pictures of them committing lynchings were published in papers, and they still weren't convicted.
OK, Brett. That I have less issue with.
BLM didn't wear masks before this started, that I know of.
I'll grant you that the BLM crowd didn't originally wear masks. BLM and Antifa have been converging lately.
My expectation is that, as the mask mandates are relaxed, BLM will continue using masks.
"So not particular groups like the KKK, just…like general oppression"
"But that’s not oppression."
So it's both general oppression and not oppression? Sounds like double speak.
The first is characterizing your argument. The second is my own - If you can't identify a group being targeted, oppression is a hard argument to make.
You really can't identify ANY groups being targeted? Really?
"If you can’t identify a group being targeted, oppression is a hard argument to make."
Some people are more equal than others...
So enlighten me.
The KKK were open that they targeted blacks and Catholics to live in fear. What groups do you think the rioters are targeting?
Whites? Capitalists? Police? Sick children in Ronald McDonald Houses?
BLM = Bitchy Little Marxists.
Eh, took the Klan a while to hit their stride, too. Just wait.
The riots you insist on calling "protests" are mostly happening at night, and they damned well are oppressing people, just apparently not people you have any concern for, like store owners.
It doesn't seem like they care about store owners or electrical line workers just doing their job...
Until they suddenly realize there's a "food desert" or the electricity goes out.
I can think the riots are tragic and dumb and undermine the cause, but also that they are not the new KKK.
They are literally creating segregated dorms.
Something the KKK would do.
Yeah, that's a well known KKK policy.
Do you think the KKK would support racially segregated dorms or oppose segregated dorms?
Could you clarify whether that sensible agreement with the obvious was meant sarcastically?
Would the KKK be in favor of segregated dorms.
A dumb question that no one should consider.
The barometer of 'would the KKK like this thing I'm doing now' is a dumb one.
Supporting segregation WAS a well known KKK policy in the 1960's.
Why'd they kill those three young men in Mississippi?
The segregation they supported was not by dorm.
I don't know who the word "they" there is supposed to refer to, but no.
https://thefederalist.com/2020/08/24/nyu-student-group-advocates-for-racially-segregated-housing/
That's not creating anything, looks like.
Pick up a newspaper dude before looking ignorant. NYU is creating segregated dorms.
https://reason.com/2020/08/24/black-nyu-students-segregated-housing-race/
Yes, Black NYU Students Demanded Segregated Housing. No, the University Didn't Agree to It.
"NYU does not have and will not create student housing that excludes any student based on race."
Come in hot, sometimes you crash and burn.
Try again:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/08/24/nyur-a24.html?ocid=uxbndlbing
We have a difference of facts. So I checked the sources.
...You trust a site called World Socialist Web Site over reason?
Odd.
I know my audience.
In some ways, they're worse than the KKK.
Don't get me wrong, the KKK was bad, and I condemn their acts. But the KKK's very actions, in many ways, hurt their cause. No common people wanted to be associated with an organization that would bomb and burn things and people in order to get their way.
Likewise, sadly, what the riots do is actively hurt any cause BLM had and drive away any support from common people. Normal people don't want to be around an organization that riots continuously, burning property, threatening people, assaulting police and federal officers on a daily basis.
When BLM members say they "don't care" about the property damage that is done, if you're a small business owner who just had her life's work destroyed, how does that make you feel about the movement?
Communists never cared for the bourgeoisie.
You can tell the GOP convention is coming up because the lame redbaiting is on the rise.
Not because of openly Communist rioters setting things on fire in our cities?
Mostly peaceful burning of buildings in Wisconsin.
And not a DHS "stormtrooper" in sight in Portland but the violence goes on and on and on.
Nowhere near the level when the Feds were doing their thing.
Tell that to the guy they nearly beat to death last week.
Which is a crap argument, and you know it.
You do seem to fall for your own appeals to emotion far more than is healthy.
So another life Sarcastr0 doesn't give a shit about because it doesn't feed his preferred narrative. got it. Remember the "stormtroopers" picked up all of 2 people while wearing identification but you of course are going to go with the hyperbolic version filled with lies or just misstatements regardless.
Appeal to emotion is a fallacy, chief.
This anecdote did not actually address my point.
I do remember when they made arrests without any individualized suspicion which is unconstitutional and y'all didn't care because due process is only for people who agree with you.
No, but we do recall when people claimed that the arrests weren't with any individualized suspicion.
1) they were released without charge. That's a clue.
2) Those people included the deputy director of the Federal Protective Service, who discussed how an encounter with a potential witness turned into an arrest.
3) You really are free with the benefit of the doubt when it involves abusing liberals, aren't you?
"The guy 'they' nearly beat to death" had a couple of minor bruises, was examined and released.
"Minor bruises" being a full forced punt to the face when he was sitting down and not armed nor defending himself...
Sad to see you openly defend communist thugs.
Pointing out that Bob is exaggerating is not quite defending anything.
Just like pointing out your invocation of communist thugs is outta your hate.
"Also lots more open large-scale protests versus nighttime raids targeted at individuals."
How come Lori Lightfoot won't allow the "open large-scale protests" on her block?
Apparently, Sarcastro doesn't think that threatening a gay black female politician counts as suppressing minorities.
Headlines look like protests. Calling that threatening is again conflating riots and protests.
Quit it.
The only difference between the two is about 5 minutes.
Yeah, Lori Lightfoot says she's getting personal threats to her home and family. So, I'm going to call that "Threatening".
https://www.the-sun.com/news/1345003/chicago-mayor-lori-lightfoot-banning-protesters-home/
And you are connecting that to the protests how?
The protestors are making the threats.
Your proof of this is just your intuition, eh? You think every politician receiving death threats is probably proof of Antifa?
She's banned protests both peaceful and violent outside her house. She legally can, but not required for protection, and not a good look.
Tell me Sarcastro.
When the protestors come to your street in force, your home and write signs to "Guillotine" you...
Do you consider that a threat?
Doesn't make me happy, but it's not a true threat.
Sorry, people writing signs, in force, OUTSIDE YOUR HOUSE that say they want to CHOP OFF YOUR HEAD...from an organization that has ripped people out of cars and beaten them, blinded people for life and more
Is some not a true threat?
If that's not a true threat, nothing is.
Threats to kill a politician during a nonviolent protest are not a true threat. They're a bad look, but not a true threat.
Your histrionics won't change what the law is.
I suppose shooting fireworks at their house at 2 AM isn't a true threat either.
Let's have a nice comparison for you Sarcastro.
Case example 1: A large group of protestors march to the house of a Black politician threatening to "cut off her head"
Case example 2: A large group of protestors march to the house of a Black politician, and the proceed to put a small cross on fire.
Which of those is a "True Threat"? Why are they different?
Neither.
The burning cross is also protected speech:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.A.V._v._City_of_St._Paul
"The burning cross is also protected speech:"
Not quite...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_v._Black
And you still didn't answer about the shooting of fireworks.
In this case, the Court struck down that statute to the extent that it considered cross burning as prima facie evidence of intent to intimidate.
You need to prove intent to intimidate separately - in your scenario above, the burning cross is still protected speech.
Still haven't answered about shooting fireworks at someone's house.
And PERSONALLY, if a mob of protestors march to MY house where I live with my family, threatening to cut off MY head..
I'm going to say they're trying to intimidate me. Just a hint.
Maybe arson? I don't know much about fireworks.
But I do know it wasn't a common KKK tactic. Brett's comparison that you have adopted still sucks.
Shooting fireworks at someone is much like a burning cross, its an intimidation tactic.
Yes its not an exact copy of a tactic. Does the word "similar" mean anything to you?
"How come Lori Lightfoot won’t allow the “open large-scale protests” on her block?"
They marched on the black female Seattle police chief's house too.
Lets compare protests and what the KKK did.
Yes, lets. Far fewer of their events (as a percentage) were violent.
They didn't block public streets -- they had rallies out in the woods.
...Ed gotta Ed.
Facts are pesky things.
How many people has BLM murdered this year alone?
How many people has the Klan murdered in the past 50 years?
Then throw in all the cops BLM murdered a few years back.
BLM has a far higher body count.
And then take churchburnings.
Who's burning churches? BLM is...
It's not the Klan that is burning our cities flat.
That is a fact....
None.
"How many people..."
https://apnews.com/fc2d17b3e2f50380bf2521f5e0257fe1
How many people...
https://apnews.com/18e8ec5a9b8e7175a128254d55df41e3
AL, your causation is questionable.
How about this for causation?
https://www.startribune.com/body-found-in-wreckage-of-mpls-pawn-shop-burned-during-george-floyd-unrest/571838681/
Notably absent from those links is anything saying that "BLM" killed anyone — something that would be tough since BLM is a movement rather than a group.
"something that would be tough since BLM is a movement rather than a group."
Yeah, these days every group that expects to commit criminal acts is careful to declare themselves to be a "movement".
"what the KKK did"
What has the KKK done in your lifetime?
You are just deflecting.
Read the comment threat you have replied to, Bob.
I didn't bring up the KKK.
Sounds like another stunning win for federalism!
"The Fourth Circuit decides a case involving defendants who violently participated in two white supremacist rallies in California and in the "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, but the logic applies equally to rioters of all stripes."
No it doesn't because we have selective enforcement of the laws.
I am slightly and presently surprised that Judge Rushing didn't get hung up on the 'three or more persons' standard in a white supremacy case . . . isn't it the official position of the Federalist Society that there aren't three white supremacists left in the entire United States of America?
I have a problem with warning shots because those are live rounds that are going downrange without your control. But....
https://www.breitbart.com/social-justice/2020/08/24/watch-kenosha-residents-fire-warning-shots-as-rioters-threaten-neighborhoods/
https://twitter.com/zerosum24/status/1298108508290809858
Sooner or later, some Bitchy Little Marxist will get shot, and then things will get "interesting."
You're the worst.
In a world where BLM has a literal convicted terrorist on their board, and the DNC had a torture murderer for hire speak at their convention, Dr. Ed has a long way to go to be even near the worst.
Ed is slavering over right-wing violence and you come in with that weak-ass crap.
You'd really rationalize anything, wouldn't you? You are a Good German, but for the GOP.
"You’d really rationalize anything, wouldn’t you? "
Look in the mirror man before you accuse other people.
Ed acts horribly, and Brett comes in with guilt by association.
And then you just come in with 'I know you are but what am I.'
Not really covering yourselves in glory here, guys.
You are, and have been, furiously deflecting all acts of violence by the "mainly peaceful protestors" for months now.
Its Trump's fault or there is no connection to protests or some other lame a** crap.
Rationalizing street violence like the Good Red you are.
From above:
I can think the riots are tragic and dumb and undermine the cause, but also that they are not the new KKK.
So stuff it, Bob.
One passive more in sadness than anger comment does not outweigh the 1,000 comments minimizing or deflecting blame for the violence.
What is your "cause" that you regret is being undermined?
The cause is reforming police however is required to stop their rampant entitlement to overuse of force.
Ed may be "acting horribly" on some absolute scale, but how many people has he tortured to death? Not enough to qualify for a speaking gig at the Democratic convention.
No, Ed understands enough of history and human nature to understand what is likely to happen once certain lines are crossed.
And does it take a rocket scientist to understand that if live rounds are being fired at the Bitchy Little Marxists, it's quite possible that one of them might hit someone. Did you see the twitter clip I posted? Do you honestly think all those rapidly-fired handgun rounds were carefully aimed? Ever hear of a ricochet?
No, Ed is saying that once live rounds are being fired, it's only a matter of time until someone gets hit by one.
How many times in the last year have you predicted right-wing violence in reaction to something a liberal does? How many times has it come true?
How hard are you not condemning the right-winger?
How bad are you at concealing your hope?
I saw mention of multiple persons in WI being treated for "non-life-threatening bullet wounds.
GSWs used to be damn serious....