Guns Aren't a Public Health Issue
A deeply flawed documentary by the gray lady unwittingly makes the case for why the CDC shouldn't be studying gun violence.
HD DownloadThe New York Times published an 11-minute documentary in June titled "'It Was Really a Love Story.' How an N.R.A. Ally Became a Gun Safety Advocate," which tells a heartwarming story of how friendship transcended political differences and convinced a right-wing partisan to come to terms with the truth about firearms.
The film stars a couple of improbable friends: Dr. Mark L. Rosenberg, who for many years oversaw research on gun violence at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) as the director of its National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, and "NRA Pointman" Rep. Jay Dickey (R–Ark.), who was the author of an amendment inserted into a 1996 spending bill that prohibited the CDC from using federal funds to advocate for gun control.
The story is also framed by the findings of a famous (or infamous) 1993 CDC-funded study, which was "the first piece that we funded by external scientists," Rosenberg recounts. It allegedly showed that owning guns made Americans overwhelmingly less safe. According to the film, the National Rifle Association (NRA) lobbied for the Dickey Amendment because of the 1993 study's damning results. The organization "didn't think it would be good for business," Rosenberg says, "and they went to Congress, and they said, 'You have got to stop this research because it's going to result in all Americans losing their right to have a gun in their homes.'"
Dickey and Rosenberg started out as "mortal enemies," but after making small talk about their kids during a chance conversation they developed "an incredible friendship," as Rosenberg recounts. Years later, they were habitually ending their conversations by telling each other "I love you," and "we really meant it," Rosenberg says. Through the power of this human connection, Dickey ends up seeing reason and changing his mind. He comes to believe that the amendment bearing his name was a mistake.
It's a story of redemption through friendship that's well-tuned to our own hyperpolarized times. The lesson is that if blind partisans aren't swayed by empirical evidence, human connection might just do the trick. "Underneath what people think are such opposing forces are some very important shared values," Rosenberg says.
Although the moral of the documentary is undoubtedly true, every other detail is wrong. The takeaway from the story of Dickey, Rosenberg, and the 1993 gun study at the center of the piece is that the congressman was correct to begin with. The CDC shouldn't be studying gun violence.
Titled "Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home" and published in The New England Journal of Medicine, the 1993 study looked at 388 people who had been killed in their homes and matched them to 388 neighbors of similar age, sex, and race. One hundred and seventy-four of the victims lived in houses where at least one gun was present versus only 139 of the matched controls.
With scary music and breathless claims, the video tells viewers that if you had a gun in your house, you were 200 percent more likely to be killed with a gun in your home and 400 percent more likely to kill yourself.
These are both exaggerations and misstatements of the study results. It didn't address suicide risk at all, nor gun homicides. It found households in which a resident had been murdered at home by any means had a 25 percent greater frequency of having a gun, not 200 percent. But this doesn't mean owning a gun increases your risk of being killed by 25 percent.
This is a classic statistical error known as the "base rate fallacy" and is particularly important when studying rare events, like people murdered in their homes. Suppose 10 people are murdered in their homes, and five of those homes had guns. A matched set of 10 people who were not murdered in their homes found only four homes had guns. So there are 25 percent more guns in the homes of murder victims than matched nonmurder victims (Five vs. four).
But what if you put those 20 people in the context of another million, none of whom were murdered in their homes, half of whom had guns in their homes and half of whom didn't. The rate for gun owners to be murdered at home becomes five out of 500,009, while the rate for non-gun owners becomes five out of 500,011. So now we find that the risk is 0.0004 percent higher.
In other words, being murdered in your home means you have a 25 percent higher chance of having a gun, but having a gun means you have only a 0.0004 percent greater chance of being murdered in your home. Those are not the same thing.
The finding that owning a gun made study subjects less safe was also a conclusion selected from much stronger statistical results that didn't fit the authors' political views and, thus, weren't mentioned in the study. Yes, 25 percent more victims' homes had guns than control homes, but 38 percent more victims had controlled security access to their property. Why not lobby against gates as a public health matter? Twenty times as many victims had gotten in trouble at work because of drinking, so why worry about guns when drinking at work is two orders of magnitude more dangerous? Renting and living alone were far more dangerous than having a gun. Victims were less likely than controls to own a rifle or a shotgun, so why not a government program to trade in handguns for long guns?
Another issue is the study design. Comparing victims to nonvictims can make sense in medicine. When a new disease appears, for example, researchers compare victims to outwardly similar nonvictims to get clues about the cause. In the early days of AIDS, the CDC identified a "4H club" of Haitians, homosexuals, hemophiliacs, and heroin addicts. Most of the sick fell under one of those four categories, whereas non-"4H" members were seldom infected. While the first H turned out to be a false clue, the last three suggested correctly a blood-to-blood or blood-to-mucous membrane transmission.
With a new disease, we don't know much about transmission. But with gun ownership, we can identify obvious mechanisms, such as the gun owner shooting himself, or an attacker stealing the gun and shooting the gun owner. But if the gun in the house wasn't the murder weapon, that homicide shouldn't be included in the study.
Therefore, for guns, it's silly to lump all deaths together. The majority of the deaths in the households included in the study were not caused by guns, and when a gun was used, the researchers did not determine who owned it. We also don't care equally about all deaths. If a woman kills a violent attacker threatening her family, that's a bad thing only to a tunnel-vision public health researcher adding up total deaths.
A more technical criticism is that the study uses flawed statistical methodology. Most journals require research to demonstrate the results are unlikely to result from random chance. Overall, 40.6 percent of subjects and controls had guns in the house. If gun ownership has no effect on homicide rates, there's a 4 percent chance that 174 or more of the subjects would own guns. That's less than the arbitrary 5 percent threshold many journals use, so the results are deemed statistically significant. The researchers did a more complex statistical analysis to arrive at the same 4 percent significance.
The issue with both my simple calculation and the researchers' more complex one is they are only accurate if there are no errors in the data, the precise effect of all controls is known, and all relevant controls are included. We know there are significant errors in this kind of data, we have little idea about the effects of controls, and we know there are many relevant factors that were not measured.
A good rule of thumb many practicing statisticians use is to ignore any odds ratio below three—that is, you'd want to see three times as many victims as controls owning guns before you took the result seriously. A 25 percent difference can easily be attributed to random chance.
Another technical criticism is the 1993 study ignores the vast literature by psychologists, sociologists, criminologists, and statisticians on crime and violence. It cites only public health studies and general references. This is a general problem with most public health literature. It exists in a closed world that does not learn from other fields, nor do researchers in other fields build on it.
Despite the study's problems, which have been written about widely (see here, here, here, and here), Rosenberg attributes all of the criticism to gun manufacturers concerned about potential loss of sales. Though the Dickey amendment prohibited the CDC's Injury Center from spending money on gun control promotion and advocacy, Rosenberg blames it for shutting off all research into gun violence.
Rosenberg sums up the Dickey amendment as follows: "If you do research in this area, we will harass you." An example of the harassment Rosenberg gives is "the threat of congressional inquiries" that can "wreak havoc with your research."
Why does Rosenberg think that taxpayer-funded research shouldn't be subject to congressional inquiry? Rather than stating that he was willing to answer sensible and relevant questions, Rosenberg wanted to be shielded from congressional Republicans like Dickey, who he deemed ignorant and evil.
"Worse than not understanding," Rosenberg says, "he doesn't care."
The Dickey amendment didn't prevent the CDC from gathering and analyzing data on gun injuries and deaths. Many gun control researchers rely on CDC data. But gun control is part of a much larger issue of crime, violence, rights, and policy effects; it's not something that can be studied usefully with only infectious disease models, methods, and data.
Much of the screen time of the video is devoted to entirely irrelevant scary scenes of shooting and shells with threatening graphics. It ends with text on screen noting that the $25 million restored to the CDC for gun control research is only a fraction of a percent of its budget. (Gun homicides are also a fraction of a percent of total U.S. deaths.)
Dickey, who died of Parkinson's disease in 2017, may have come to regret pushing for the amendment that bears his name, but he remained concerned about the 1993 study, which would have complicated The New York Times' narrative and which the film left out. It uses a clip from CNN in which Dickey says he had a "change of heart" because of "the weight of all of the incidents that have occurred…. The kids and the innocent people who are being killed deserve our attention."
What's not included is a moment from that same clip in which Dickey states his ongoing concerns about the 1993 study and how it was carried out. "We wanted research done for gun violence, and that's what the money was paid for," he says. "But we found out that as we went along, that not only was the research being done just to support gun control, but we weren't even given access to what the collected data was. So it was clear that we needed to do something and to stop what was being done."
Dickey was right. Guns are not a pathogen and violence is not a disease to be controlled. What is needed is not propagandistic films or sloppy research. It's cross-disciplinary research on what drives human beings to violence, whether with a gun or without one.
Written by Aaron Brown and John Osterhoudt; edited by Osterhoudt; graphics by Adani Samat; additional graphics by Regan Taylor and Isaac Reese.
Photos: Associated Press; Cottonbro/Pexels; Roll Call/Newscom
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Some sort of mandatory vaccination programs needed.
The CDC was created on UN-Constitutional Nazi-Empire building legislation.
They will always push for MORE, MORE, MORE Nazism...
Because that's what Nazi's do... (syn; National Socialists).
There is no 'fed' authority for disease control. A Union of the State's didn't create a 'fed' for such concerns. It was created for a strong national defense against invasion. READ the U.S. Constitution. It is the definition of the USA and the people's law over their government.
Gun control advocates want the CDC to study gun violence merely to use it as a 'bully pulpit' to further there objectives. It has nothing to do with public safely.
Tyrants of all flavors want the public health community to drive their pet policies because of their conception that the words "public health" trump all possible constitutional protections. COVID showed that this is true, but only because we let them get away with it.
Red flag laws are another example. They are couched in "pubic health" terms: concerned daughter drops a dime on sundowner father. But once enacted, you find that a huge chunk of these writs are filed BY law enforcement agencies on behalf of nobody else. They use them as a way to end-run all the constitutional due process they would otherwise be required to give their target.
What public health effects of firearms?
If you get shot by a firearm, you'll be seriously hurt and may die. That's the public health effect.
Guns are inanimate objects that do not jump out of a box and kill people at random. Carrying guns doesn't cause cancer or any other disease. Breathing smoke from firearms or handling lead bullets may have health effects, but I'm sure that's not what they'd like to be "researched."
The current CDC-related law does not, in fact, prevent research into health-related aspects of firearm use and abuse. It was a 1996 spending bill, the Dickey amendment, which states that "none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) may be used to advocate or promote gun control." The CDC may perform research, and can present the results of the research. But they are prohibited from advocacy, advocacy that likely is trying to promote unconstitutional laws.
If the CDC did research into connections between Facebook usage and mass-murder, concluded that Facebook use strongly correlates with mass-murder, and began advocating for a revocation of the 1st amendment, or even "common-sense" regulations like mandatory licensing for Facebook users, where to use Facebook one had to present a photo ID and complete 16 hours of training on the proper, government approved uses of Facebook, I hope the ACLU would be spending a lot of their money to fight that.
Further, despite efforts to remove the Dickey, during Trump administration, Congress passed new spending regulations that say that "while the amendment itself remains, the language in a report accompanying the Omnibus spending bill clarifies that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention can indeed conduct research into gun violence, but cannot use government appropriated funds to specifically advocate for gun control. It was signed into law by U.S. President Donald J. Trump on March 23, 2018.
Why do the "trust the science" people have to be so dishonest about statistics to justify their policies?
Cause they don’t actually trust the science?
Because they wouldn't recognize real, valid science if it bit them in the ass.
The people advocating for government responses to "climate change" have the same problem.
Because Fookin' Progs ...
Putting the statistical issues to the side, maybe the bigger issue is causation and correlation. The authors seem to be suggesting that having a gun in the house makes them less safe. But maybe the better theory is that people living in less safe neighborhoods, and esp if someone has been murdered in their household, feel more need for a gun. And I think that there is more evidence suggesting that theory, than the one pushed by those authors.
The core of that argument is suicide. They say it's easier to kill one's self with a firearm than, say, poison. The problem with that argument is that the suicide rate in this country isn't much different than the rest of the world. The difference is the means. Their argument is "Well they wouldn't have killed themselves without a gun." But it if that was the case then there would be a higher rate of suicide in this country, which there is not. So their argument fails logically. However since the conclusion was arrived at by emotion instead of reason, stupid facts won't change any minds.
If it's about suicide, then why not have the conversation about that? And maybe, just maybe, contrary to many deep thinkers, the right to end one's life is just as basic as the right to defend it.
But conflating suicide and gun control makes no sense unless it's a case of being easier to draw a correlation if you FIRST draw the correlation, THEN plot the points.
It's about control, control, control. Authoritarians of all sorts want to tell you what to eat, how warm to set your thermostat, whom to love, what not to say, and to "call the cops" rather than doing what every other living being does and just get on with the job of defending themselves by the most effective means available.
I got this off a quick Google:
"In 2020, a little more than half (54%) of all firearm-related deaths were suicides, 43% were homicides, and 2% were accidental discharges or undetermined causes. This represents a slight decrease from 2018 and 2019, where suicides by firearms accounted for over 60% of all firearm deaths in that period."
This means that the majority of gun deaths in this country are self-inflicted. They're saying we shouldn't have guns because that makes us a danger to ourselves. Talk about paternalistic.
And I agree with you that if the problem is suicide, not guns, then we should be talking about suicide, not guns.
For some historic context, realize that for decades, suicides were amazingly constant at around 2/3 of all gun deaths. When you look at 2020 and beyond, you're actually viewing a period in which America straight went to shit in terms of person-on-person homicide. The fact that suicides still have the edge is frankly heartening.
Also, the vast majority of those homicides are concentrated in cities overrun by violent gangs that wouldn't exist if not for the drug war creating opportunities for massive illicit profits.
So the conversation should be about suicide and the drug war, not guns.
It is, but unlike the right to defend your life (and the rights to speak, to travel, even to worship), I would discourage you from exercising that right. I would try to talk you out of it.
So if some unobjectionable social change would make suicide less prevalent, I would support it.
Of course, the average gun-control proposal calls for the furthest thing from an unobjectionable social change.
Would you really try to talk someone with terminal cancer or ALS out of suicide? Perhaps you might feel that you *should* based on societal expectations, but having known people who did commit suicide in these situations, I'm not sure that they did anything unreasonable.
Suicide is a thorny issue because in Christianity its a mortal sin. If you take your own life you don't pass through the Pearly Gates. So if you're a Christian and a loved one is considering suicide, you're going to be against it because you don't want them to spend eternity in Hell.
Libertarians believe they own themselves. Christians don't, in several instances, this being one. So it's a basic conflict you shouldn't expect to reconcile.
I tend to think that people who want to kill themselves will often choose a firearm and that a lot of people who want to make a cry for help or just create drama will usually choose a far less lethal method because they don't really want to kill themselves.
Again, from having lived long enough, I'd say this is true. A neighbor's adult son (I never met him) was in a desperate situation, but when he prepared to commit suicide, he made sure to leave a note of what drugs he had taken and what a first responder could do to revive him - by the time his parents were informed, he was out of (physical) danger and had gotten everyone's attention and could begin to speak about what was on his mind. (Sort of extreme, but it was a difficult situation, and he did indeed get attention.)
But for the retiree with terminal cancer, the note was basically, "it's been a good life, but it's time to go"; I think a gun of some sort was a quick and wise choice.
This is just a lie. The suicide rate in the US is more than double that of other wealthy countries. Interestingly, it spiked markedly after the end of the assault weapons ban. Not sure if that relationship makes sense, but at any rate the US has the ninth highest rate of gun death in the world, beaten almost exclusively only by South American states overrun by drug cartels.
There are no good numbers to help you out here.
Numbers like these? https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/suicide-rate-by-country Yes some are lower but not all and male suicide rates in Belgium, Austria, and Switzerland are comparable. Also countries with strict gun control such as Russia and other former Soviet territories are significantly higher.
Clearly the presence of guns is not the only factor in gun death rates, but a basic understanding of how cause and effect work in this universe should cause us to assume that these things are at least to some degree correlated.
Exactly, there's a causation reality. Which scenario is more probable?
1.) Owning a gun makes you more likely to commit suicide.
2.) Having a desire to commit suicide makes you more likely to own a gun.
There's also the climate issue. People who live near the equator are less likely to commit suicide while people who live far from the equator - with long periods of darkness - are more likely to commit suicide. Note, in areas that have populations in both places it is difficult to determine unless local rates are compensated for. Perhaps it's a vitamin D thing, I don't know.
Owning a gun makes suicidal people more likely to succeed on their first attempt. It may be convenient to gloss over the basic physics of this issue, but that's pro-gun propaganda for you.
Cite?
How many times did Robin Williams try a belt and his closet door?
If I have to teach both basic physics and basic logic, I demand a salary.
Irrelevant, as you grasp neither of those disciplines. Tony, you’re not a smart person, and clearly posses no education in any substantive area of study. So you’re not going to be teaching, instructing, lecturing on anything other than woke drivel and how to grease up when you’re getting bottomed.
Everyone else here is smarter and better educated than you. Case closed.
As much as I disagree with Tony about, well, everything, I'd have to say he's smarter than you. Why do I say that? Because he engages ideas while you engage people.
Disagreement isn't a result of stupidity, and people who say it is are just avoiding arguments by attacking the person instead of what they say.
Which is typical around these parts.
Fuck off, rent-boy.
-jcr
"If I have to teach both basic physics and basic logic, I demand a salary."
Slimy pile of shit, you owe most everybody here tuition fees.
Sorry, did Tony engage my ideas here? BC I missed it.
Sarc, you’re a broken drunk. So your estimation of Tony’s intellect is meaningless. He professes to have an 85 IQ, which mostly goes unused anyway. And Tony doesn’t have ideas. Tony has democrat party pablum he pukes up here daily.
The fact is I’m smarter than all you leftist turds. All of us here are. Which is in no way a high bar. You’re just bitter, drunk and angry.
Maybe. Still, I'm lovin' me that mute feature.
Obviously anything people try to kill themselves with is ostensibly more likely to result in success than if they did not have it.
People have the freedom to end their lives, and I don’t want to take their choices and freedom away.
Suicides can be divided up into bulets and all other means. Guns predominate only for men over 65
South Korea and Japan have far higher suicide rates than the US.
And virtually no guns.
Idaho, where I live, has among the lowest murder rates in the US. It is a constitutional carry state, with lots of guns.
If the presence of guns was causal, neither of these things would be true.
I wonder if there has ever been a study of suicide rates in wokie strongholds versus American cities.
Would anyone talk Tony out of suicide?
I’ve been trying to talk him INTO suicide for years, he’s just too narcissistic to acknowledge how utterly worthless he is.
Suicides are a suicide problem, and people murdering each other over drugs is a direct result of drug prohibition.
Neither of those things are caused by guns.
The core of that argument is suicide.
Not really. I think that suicide is a different issue, that is often swept into the debate in order to confuse things, since in much of the country, the majority of gun deaths are suicide.
My point was that for many people, it appears that their desire for a gun is dependent upon their fear of being attacked. This fear is far from universal, and, indeed, has a big socio-economic correlation.
I grew up in upper middle class suburbia, with a professional father and well educated mother. We didn’t have any violence in the community, and no one felt a need for a gun for safety. My three brothers still live in communities like that, and still don’t see any need for a gun for safety. I am back in a good neighborhood, in our house in PHX, sandwiched between Scottsdale and the Mayo Clinic. But much of the less fortunate in this country don’t live in such safety. There are communities where kids hide in bathtubs when they hear gunshots, an almost a daily occurrence for some, and have experienced violence of one type or another on a regular basis. They often know people who have died violently. Maybe even close family members and the like. It shouldn’t surprise anyone that their desire for a gun for defense is recently maybe the most intense in this country these days, esp with the Defund The Police movement, and the like, eventually making their communities even more dangerous. And that was my point – that a theory that people are more likely to have a gun in the house if they have had violence in the house or nearby community in the past, is probably more accurate than the theory that guns in the house causes gun violence.
See: https://reason.com/volokh/2022/09/29/liberal-female-and-minority-americas-new-gun-owners-arent-who-you-think
My point was that for many people, it appears that their desire for a gun is dependent upon their fear of being attacked.
Not in my experience. With one exception every gun owner I know likes to hunt or put holes in paper. The exception is a paranoid Marine.
My point was that if you take suicide and drug-related killings out of the statistics, guns aren't much of a problem.
Mark Twain said figures don't lie, but liars figure. Tossing in suicides is, in my mind anyway, how liars figure.
I don't have a pathological fear of my house going up in flames, or being maimed in a traffic incident, but I maintain my smoke detectors and wear my seat belt. The same is true of my "interpersonal protection."
Sounds like you took the Boy Scout Motto "Be Prepared" to heart.
Too bad a larger percentage of our society doesn't follow that same motto, we'd be in far better shape as a nation.
"My point was that for many people, it appears that their desire for a gun is dependent upon their fear of being attacked."
I have a fire extinguisher in my kitchen. I'm not afraid of there being a fire, I'm being prudent.
Having a gun, knowing how to use it, and being prepared to use it isn't because of a fear of being attacked, it's prudent.
In many cases, guns are like parachutes. If you need one and don't have one, you'll never need on again.
Not to mention, where I live, I'm far more likely to need to deal with a racoon in the chicken coop than an intruder. OTOH, if there was an intruder and I called 911, it would be 20 minutes or so before a sheriff's deputy (no police force here) might show up.
I have that for six months of the year, in NW MT, except it is black bears instead of your raccoons. We do have brown bear on the N ridge and wolves on the S ridge, plus the occasional mountain lion, but they almost never come into town. Last year, we had a recently weaned, maybe 2 year old, black bear sleeping outside my wife’s window. Then, late that summer, had a lot of big ones in town, due to the fire burning through north of us. This last summer, most worrying was the sow with a couple young ones. Didn’t actually see her, but my dog alerted, and heard her about 20 feet away. For the bears, I open carry a 10 mm G20, recently upgraded to G4 Woodsman cartridges.
The rest of the year, we live in NW PHX, sandwiched between N Snottsdale and the Mayo Clinic. Big open space just south of us that has a lot of wildlife. Ran into several small and one very large, Diamondbacks last year. People whose houses overlook the area see javelinas. But most worrying is the pack of 4 fairly aggressive coyotes. They don’t really watch me as much as our small dog, which they no doubt see as a nice tidbit. They do come, fairly brazenly, into the subdivision, on occasion, but we mostly see them in that big open space. I open carry a 9 mm G17 with SD rounds, as well as bear mace, for them. Asked PHX PD whether I could shoot them if they attacked either the dog or me, and they said fine.
Japan has, I believe, the highest rate of suicide in the world, and they are one of the most gun-free societies.
The confounding correlation that drives many of these statistics is simply the following: a person contemplating suicide who also owns a gun is most likely to use the gun as the surest and most painless method, to the point where those who own guns and commit suicide will rarely choose some other method. If the person does not own or have access to a gun, he will simply move on to another method. (Drugs are even easier to get than guns.)
More junk science fantasy from the sheep.
Guns aren't a public health issue, people are.
Guns aren’t a public health issue, foaming-at-the-mouth anti-democracy fake-libertarian strongman-worshipping Republican MAGA! zealots in Reason comments sections are.
Hi Tulpa.
Out health is fine. We’re not a. Inch of traitor trash groomer beta subnormal pedophiles, you like you wokie retards.
Homosexuals and their HIV infected penises are public health issues.
Only if you have frequent sex with strangers or with people who themselves also have frequent sex with strangers.
This!
A gay couple who have been monogamous for a couple of decades have no more chance of contracting HIV than do their monogamous straight neighbors.
The trick is finding gay men that have been monogamous for years. It's an especially non-monogamous demographic.
And that doesn't really matter, either, since the risks are known and they are consenting adults.
Caveat Emptor!
The oldsters don't seem to get around much.
Gay couples like that are generally not the ones making the news, or showing up in parades.
They are usually getting banned from Twitter for calling out the groomers
Fatherless feral children, with few exceptions, are a public health issue.
They are certainly a public financial issue.
If anything, the CDC’s history of being proven liars about firearms should’ve caused Americans to
questionignore their Covid guidelines.Fat chance of that happening.
There's no harm in studying something. It's only through a perverse form of modern mysticism that guns get special treatment over, say, chemicals in breakfast cereal. Getting your head turned into mush is certainly relevant to your health, however much you may participate in the cargo cult forcefed to you by arms dealers and their agents in government and media.
You want maximum gun proliferation, you explain why it's worth the cost. You provide the numbers, and if "just" homicides don't outnumber murders and suicides, then you're standing on quicksand. Convenient for picking some up and throwing it in people's eyes.
You're members of a cult of death, and instead of simply not doing that, you abandon all reason to find some rationalization for this utter waste of time. You're bad people. Failures.
Feel free to fund it.
As if guns are the only way people kill each other, you disingenuous hack.
But we regulate other things that kill people, even relatively benign things. The main thing that distinguishes guns from, say, airplanes or shampoo is that guns are tools specifically designed for the purpose of killing people. Which is why you love them so much.
Or if you are intelligent they are designed to defend someone. Shampoo not so much.
Okay, everybody can have one handgun for self-defense purposes, and let's throw in a rifle for hunting.
I can throw out compromise proposals all day. Are you going to participate seriously in this contentious political issue, or are you going to demand maximum gun proliferation with no compromise whatsoever?
How pairs of shoes do you own? You only need one to protect your feet.
There is no need for compromise with fear-mongering jackasses.
There's always a need for compromise with the people you share the country with. I'm offering solutions to this disagreement entirely on your own terms.
If this is about self-defense, then you only need the requisite firepower to achieve that.
If knives are just as deadly as guns, why not just have knives?
By your own rules, I'm the only one really giving anything up.
I own several guns for a few reasons. Mostly because I like to shoot, but also because they're an investment that generally holds its value over time.
Talking about guns ignores the real problems. Suicide is not caused by guns. People killing each other over drugs is not caused by guns. And those to things make up the vast majority of gun deaths in this country. Take suicide and Chicago out of the statistics, and guns suddenly don't seem that dangerous.
Why should I negotiate restrictions on something guaranteed by the constitution? And why would I ever make a bargain with a. Democrat? You treasonous shitweasels renege on every deal you make. The smart move is to force you out of our country.
American rights > democrat lives
You can play golf with just one club, right?
More children younger than 16 drown than die by shooting.
So you are all in for banning swimming pools, right?
Shall Issue and constitutional carry states have the highest murder rates, right?
I'm pretty good with the strict requirement that they be fenced-in, not have slides if they're too shallow, and all the other regulations we place on them.
And still more drown than are shot.
What’s good for the gun is good for the pool.
Except progs like pools.
US drowning deaths per year (all forms of water): ~4,000
US deaths per year by firearm: ~45,000
Younger than 16, Tony?
US deaths per year by falling: ~ 42,000
US deaths per year by car accidents: ~ 46,000
US deaths per year by alcohol: ~ 56,000
I haven’t looked up how many people die every year related to gay sexual practices, but if it’s a big number we should probably restrict and regulate that. Just think how many lives could be saved by banning things like gay bathhouses!
Why one? I like my .22 for target practice mostly because the ammo is relatively cheap. My 9mm is small enough to carry if I feel the need, but I also like to take my beefy revolver for spin now and then.
C'mon. That's like saying you can only have one pair of shoes.
We could also compromise on SSM by reinstituting the sodomy ban.
That would be hard to do. At a minimum, I would need a 10 mm handgun for defense against bears in MT, 9 mm for defense against coyotes in PHX, a .380 for pocket carry, a smaller 9 mm for concealed carry, and a 1911 .45 ACP because it’s fun to shoot. Oh, and .22 for practice, and maybe another 9 mm or two as truck guns. As for rifles, short barreled 300 BLK AR-15 for home defense in AZ, 12 gauge (ok, not a rifle) in MT, several different hunting rifles, for different ranges and game, and a 44 Mag lever gun as a fast response bear gun. Oh, and an AR-15 or two, just because they are fun.
guns are tools specifically designed for the purpose of
killing peoplekeeping other people from killing you. Which is why you love them so much.I fixed it. The vast majority of gun owners will never point their weapon at another person. The danger from legal gun owners is only the projection of passive-aggressive shitweasels like you that can't help fantasizing about murdering your enemies.
You sure you're not a butt monkey for the arms industry?
If prisons and private gun ownership made countries safer, the US would be the safest country on earth. Is it?
When you remove gang-related murders from the homicide statistics, yeah. The US is pretty safe.
The neighborhood psychopath preferred knives from the discount store. Except for the young woman he killed with her chef's knife.
Gosh Tony, the spurious analogies ar e flying fast and furious today, aren’t they?
You meant to say, “The main thing that distinguishes guns from, say, airplanes or shampoo is that guns are tools specifically designed for the purpose of killing people. Which is why we have a constitutional right to keep the federal government from reserving those for themselves.”
Why is gun violence a public health issue and knife violence is not?
All violence by definition is a health issue for someone.
Why is it that guns are exempt from the sorts of regulations we place on all other things specifically because they are especially dangerous?
Put another way: why can't you defend your home with knives, and we can call it a compromise and put this issue to bed?
Because that isn't a compromise. It is a concession of a right that we have had for 250 years.
More like 14 years.
Obviously my position is to restrict the individual right to own guns. I do prefer living in a civilized society.
By that argument, you could go ahead and restrict the right to vote; certainly voters can cause great harm to others (and civilization) with their votes, and it's a constitutionally protected right as well. No? So, which side gets to decide which ignorant or ideologically distasteful plebs lose their right?
If you suddenly came into the possession of several firearms, would you kill yourself or go murder someone? No? Then why do you think everyone else will?
When you assume everyone else is an idiot it's easy to justify stomping on their freedoms. Thing is, most people aren't idiots.
You have already prostituted yourself to the utilitarian view of progressives, you are now just haggling over the price.
In a free society, people have a right to be idiots. That is, if they want to commit suicide with a gun, that's their business. If they go out and try to murder someone, they have to accept the consequence of likely getting shot.
You're using the same argument that people use against legalizing drugs. To them I ask "If drugs were legal would you use them" and they invariable say "Of course not!" to which I ask "Why do you think everyone else will?" and they either shut up or attack me personally.
You obviously don't understand the difference between stated preferences and revealed preferences. You also neglect that people who grew up under one set of laws make different choices from those who grew up under a different set of laws.
And you deserve it too.
Doesn't that kind of depend on the drug? I mean, if Modifinil weren't a controlled substance, I'd certainly use it on occasion. There are a fair number of drugs that are controlled substances, not because they're actually addictive, or psychoactive, but just because the government disapproves of their use. Drugs that treat narcolepsy, but let you get by without sleep in a pinch. Drugs that improve athletic performance.
So did the Germans who voted for Hitler: he stood for thousands of years of civilization and order, fairness, and equity: exactly what you like, Tony.
I prefer to live in a free society, and free societies aren't particularly "civilized".
"Why is it that guns are exempt from the sorts of regulations we place on all other things specifically because they are especially dangerous?
Put another way: why can’t you defend your home with knives?"
Why do you make absurdly false claims such as this? "Guns exempt from regulations?" Obviously you have never bought a gun. That's fine, it's your choice not to own a gun, knife, baseball bat, a dog named Fido or anything else you might use to defend yourself at home. But you have no right to dictate what I choose to have in my home for self defense, including firearms as SCOTUS ruled in DC v Heller. Whether you like it or not, gun ownership is not a privilege, it's a right. A little thing called the 2nd Amendment makes that clear.
You keep saying there must be more regulation and restrictions on firearms, that you're willing to have a discussion and reach a compromise but the pro 2A crowd refuses to give up anything. So, would you be as eager to have a discussion, where it's expected of you to give up something and reach a compromise, with someone proposing regulations to restrict your right to free speech, freedom of the press, or the right to assemble in protest? How about the 4th Amendment? The 5th? I bet not. I seriously doubt you'd call being forced into negotiating away any other protected rights as just having a conversation to find solutions on political issues. It's absurdity that you have the arrogance to label this as such an argument.
Every gun control law on the books today, state and federal, is unconstitutional, an obvious infringement by the government, of the one and only constitutionally protected right to so obviously declare, in no uncertain terms, "shall not be infringed."
So no, I will not, for one second, consider giving up anything more to appease the likes of you. Giving away a protected right to the government, piece by piece, over a period of decades, is not called compromising, it's called surrendering. In fact, I will do everything I can in supporting efforts to repeal any and all unconstitutional gun control laws and regulations put in place over the past 50+ years. Just as I would for other constitutionally protected rights.
Guns are safe wwhen used as directed.
What I think he is getting at is that there is a federal law that protects gun manufacturers from liability if someone uses one of their guns to illegally shoot someone. But, of course, gun manufacturers are liable under product liability laws, for not working properly. But this law just puts them on par with other dangerous products like automobiles, where the manufacturers are not liable for illegal misuse of their products - just for faulty products.
It's not guns that are "exempt", it's all arms.
How would I defend my home with knives against goons with guns?
"We are going to forcibly remove only one of your kidneys against your will; let's call it a compromise and put this issue of organ donations to rest."
You're a fascist, Tony.
I'm still trying to figure out why forcing me to continue "renting" to a tenant who isn't paying me any rent (and yet continuing to force me to pay mortgage and property taxes out of no income) was ever a public health issue.
You want maximum gun proliferation
I'm all for discouraging lefturds from arming themselves, but I won't resort to coercion to accomplish it.
You’re members of a cult of death,
Says the pro-abortion lefturd.
-jcr
I worked at an oil refinery. The CDC looked at medical records of current and past employees going back sixty years. They found one case of brain cancer among the 25,000 people. The incidence is 1/50,000 so the headline was 'working at the refinery doubled the chance of brain cancer.'
Another way of looking at it is, if there were no cases, then working at a refinery made you immune to brain cancer.
Liars.
Worked with lung cancer and cigarettes with only a 15ish percent increase. 100% is a slam dunk!
This article, and most of the comments, obviously mis-understand the process of studying things. If there is an initial study that has all kinds of problems, you want more review ...and more studies.
The point that the "4 H's" was wrong, because being Haitian was a red herring is completely obvious after there was a whole lot more study.
The process of science does not require that everything be perfectly correct out of the gate, but that it leads to further study that eventually becomes clearer and clearer, more and more accurate. We need a lot of study, and the CDC funding it would help. Then we can have intelligent discussions about this, instead of making lib-tard jokes and feeling superior about our individual understanding of statistics.
Not just no, but hell no.
More study from a hypothetically neutral organization that is simply looking at facts, correlations, and trying to make sense of them would be fine. But that would not describe the CDC.
CDC = Centers for Disease Control. Their mandate is specific to communicable disease. Talk about mission drift.
I’m surprised that half their budget isn’t going for ‘climate change’.
What about stopping landlords from evicting deadbeat tenants?
"But that would not describe the CDC."
There's no rule that states only the CDC can conduct such studies. More study means different outfits with different viewpoints should also look into the issue. This is especially true when it comes to sensitive issues that involve emotional attachments like gun ownership.
Did you imagine your bullshit had some relevance to the issue, or were you just, once again, slinging bullshit in the hopes of seeing your name on the web?
'We can have intelligent discussions about this, instead of making lib-tard jokes and feeling superior about our individual understanding of statistics.' Should we do this before or after 'we' make assertions based on strawman arguments? Your dishonest assertions about the arguments made here ignore the facts. The CDC did not engage in 'the process of studying things.' The CDC engaged in political bias, selection bias, and confirmation bias, and applied all three to their work. This is why the organization is incapable of accomplishing its primary mission, responding to infectious disease.
There is nothing to "study". The right to bear arms shall not be infringed, period.
Very few government policies actually require scientific studies. Science is largely abused by government to justify the imposition of policies that people would otherwise reject.
There’s a difference between people having a right to keep and bear arms and people having a right to be reckless.
It’s interesting to me the number of times you hear about children shooting themselves or friends/family, when they uncover a loaded gun. That is a public health concern.
It’s interesting how many guns are used in criminal acts that are stolen because they weren’t properly secured. That is a public health concern.
Everyone should have a right to a gun, if they can be responsible gun owners. …and describing what being “responsible” is requires studies, to protect the public health.
The CDC’s “National Center for Injury Prevention and Control” sounds like the right group from the name… If they are being political rather than scientific, well that needs review, but it doesn’t mean we should eliminate all gun-related research.
Frankly, with how off-the-rails the NRA has become, just the fact that they oppose it, makes some kind of argument that we need to do it.
There is a difference between a giraffe and a sofa as well. What's your point?
No, it's not. It's a matter of parental responsibility and liability.
No, it's not. It's a matter of personal responsibility and civil liability.
You seem to operate under the mistaken assumption that "public health" means "keeping as many people healthy as possible" and that somehow that is the job of government. That's simply false.
Frankly, with how off-the rails and fascist people like you have become, we really have to worry about the future of this country.
Wow. You really released a lot of personal vitriol. I am going to try one more time...
I agree that it is not the government's role to keep everyone healthy. You and I can absolutely choose to take any risk to ourselves, and no nanny state should stop us. The problem is that our rights end, where they directly infringe on others' rights.
I agree with you that children shooting people with guns involves parental responsibility. So, the parents of school shooters should be responsible, including the death penalty, for letting their children access their guns. Parents who don't secure their weapons so that children can't get at them unsupervised should have their weapons taken away, face jail time, and probably lose their children -- even without their children actually killing someone, it is extremely reckless.
It _is_ the role of government to protect me from you, when you want to put your right to a gun over my right to life. (Note that the right to life is "inalienable".)
Guns are literally designed to kill people; only a small fraction of them (and not the biggest sellers) are really designed for anything else. Despite that, a whole lot of gun owners treat them like toys.
"If there is an initial study that has all kinds of problems, you want more review …and more studies."
under most circumstances i would agree, but when its blatantly obvious the 'researchers' already know the conclusion they want to reach, how valuable is that additional 'research' ?
Well, that just shows a certain -- let me be nice today -- naivete
I've seen a flood of things like I saw just 24 hours ago, namely :
Major Scientific Publisher Retracts More Than 500 Papers
London's Hindawi, publisher of over 200 "peer-reviewed" journals.
A fine example of why “public health” isn’t respected as a scientific pursuit. I believe they’re also trying to treat racism as a public health issue— in the end, they want power, and they are looking for end runs around the Constitution.
^^^ THIS
A few years back, Republicans said that it wasn't about guns it was about the mental health of the shooters. Now reason is reversing that?
Yes, the big takeaway: if you don't want to end up a bullet-ridden corpse, keep your gun, but get a roommate. Or a mortgage.
Three problems: the case-control method they used "works" only if we assume correlation equals causation. It is retrospective. And here the researchers trying to prove Gunz R Bad, mmmKay picked the controls for the corpses.
The authors condemn the study for its “’base rate fallacy’”, then promptly “load the dice”: instead of a million “none of whom were murdered in their homes”, how about a million who were murdered in their homes? What would the rate then be? The authors then follow with several “false cause” analogies: gates, drinking, living alone, and drinking might accompany murders, but do not cause death by bullet. Guns do.
Could be that the mindset that leads to gun ownership also leads to gun murders.
Part of the fallacy is that 85% of the deaths in the survey were suicides. (Kellerman has a habit of conflating criminal with noncriminal homicides.) So the largest chunk of his results, restated, becomes, “People contemplating suicide are more likely to use a gun if they have a gun available.” This result is both unsurprising and uninteresting.
"This result is both unsurprising and uninteresting."
I found them interesting. Also of interest, how many suicides use guns vs no gun use? how many suicides have guns at hand but choose another way to kill themselves?
"...Also of interest, how many suicides use guns vs no gun use? how many suicides have guns at hand but choose another way to kill themselves?"
Why not do some research and inform us (WITH CITES) rather than argue from innuendo?
Actually, more a matter of "People seriously contemplating suicide often go out and buy guns."; The association between gun ownership and suicide is only strong for a relatively short period immediately after your first gun purchase, and rapidly falls off. The rational explanation for this isn't that guns cause suicide, but instead that wanting to commit suicide causes gun purchases.
how about a million who were murdered in their homes?
Leave your jackboot fantasies at the door, lefturd. Free, armed people aren't going to let you murder them in their homes without taking a shitload of you with them.
-jcr
"Free, armed people aren’t going to let you murder them in their homes without taking a shitload of you with them."
Not necessarily. Many are murdered with their own weapons. Being armed and being ready and willing to kill another, even in self defense aren't the same thing. Brandishing a weapon you aren't prepared to use can lead to fatal results.
"...Many are murdered with their own weapons..."
As they consistently are, your fantasies are unsupported by evidence and should be acknowledged to be what they are: Bullshit
You might also find the critical discussion of the statistical and other aspects of the Kellermann et al publication published at
https://guncite.com/journals/tennmed.html
"GUNS AND PUBLIC HEALTH: EPIDEMIC OF VIOLENCE OR PANDEMIC OF PROPAGANDA?"
to be relevant.
P.S. Back then Kellermann refused to send me the data on which their paper was based.
Kellerman refused to send ANYBODY his base data for certain papers. A trenchant fisking of much of that work, as well as the CDC connection appears here: https://www.gunfacts.info/blog/unscientific-american/
Kellerman refused to send ANYBODY his base data for certain papers.
So, as Hitchens used to say, what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. If Kellerman won't show his work, he's goddamned liar.
-jcr
He's a goddamned liar regardless, you can tell that from his work.
He's one of a handful of 'researchers' who've made a career of churning out fake studies supporting gun control. They literally do it for a living, nobody hires them expecting legitimate research.
The CDC is a waste of money in all areas.
If you're going to argue statistics, avoid simple math errors.
"Twenty times as many victims had gotten in trouble at work because of drinking, so why worry about guns when drinking at work is two orders of magnitude more dangerous?"
Two orders of magnitude is 100, not 20.
Good
Guns ARE a public health issue. Thousands of Americans die each year from gunfire, and even more are seriously injured. Families and lives are routinely destroyed by the unchecked gunfire in the United States. The prevalence of guns in our society, and the totally immoral and irrational way the Second Amendment has been skewed to prevent any attempts to combat this, have made our society one of the most violent and dangerous societies on earth. Denial of the public health threat that guns are to our health and safety isn’t just ignorant. It’s dangerous.
You're full of shit.
Fuck off and die, slaver.
I don’t think it’s necessary to make a claim either way about whether gun violence is a public health issue.
It’s reasonable to argue that the methods used to analyse health issues, from experimental design to statistics and probability techniques, can be applied to gun deaths. Just because one can use the same analytic tools in two domains doesn’t make them the same domain.
It is also reasonable to argue that in principle many of the people with the greatest expertise in using these tools are likely to be public health scientists. Whether in practice a particular public health scientist has demonstrated that expertise is a different matter.
"I don’t think it’s necessary to make a claim either way about whether gun violence is a public health issue."
Coming from a statist, this is not at all surprising; you're willing to let the camel get the nose under the tent, hoping it goes your way.
Is it any wonder you're held in contempt here, lefty asshole?
Go jump in a woodchipper.
-jcr
How is it immoral and irrational to maintain the highest law of the land as set forth in the Constitution? If the government were free to trample our rights, there would be chaos. If the Second Amendment has outlived its usefulness, there is a process in place to amend the Constitution.
Baseless bullshit. Societal violence is largely the result of democrat policies. From pushing mind altering drugs on little boys to control and emasculated them, to being soft on violent criminal sociopaths with ‘cashless bail’ bullshit.
If you want to know who is really responsible for all the violence, go look in a mirror. You and your fellow travelers have an ocean of blood on your hands.
Never trust anyone who wants to disarm you. No one who trusts you wants to disarm you.
That may be a useful individual heuristic but it is garbage as a policy argument. Do you think that everyone who used a firearm unlawfully was trustworthy up until they used that firearm?
No.
Did you imagine that had any relevance to the issue at all?
As a policy argument, while it's quite possible that most people who use a firearm unlawfully had previously used one lawfully, almost everybody who uses firearms lawfully will NEVER use one unlawfully.
So, disarming people who haven't yet committed crimes, in order to disarm people who will commit crimes, is wildly over-inclusive.
It's also ineffectual, because black markets are a real thing, and disarming the law abiding doesn't actually prevent those with criminal intent from arming themselves illegally.
Given these facts, no, you shouldn't ever trust anyone who wants to disarm you.
The whole notion of "gun violence" was cooked up by the CDC in the 70s, when they irrationally combined homicides, suicides, and accidents, even though the causes of each were quite different. "Firearms violence" first appeared in the Surgeon General's "Healthy People," in 1979.
Again, the biggest problem was the CDC's misuse of the case-control method, which is a quick and dirty -- and agnostic -- way to identify possible causes of a disease outbreak that hasn't affected many people so far. But which the CDC misused in a running attempt to prove Gunz R Bad, mmmKay?
Why don't they study red SUVs that lose control near pedestrians?
Humans and statistics have something in common: if you torture them enough, they’ll say anything you want them to.
A key flaw in this study was that it did not exclude households where the gun was kept due to a specific threat, like drugs being sold from the house, or a family member in a gang.
Another implied conclusion is that you are more likely to be shot with the gun you keep than use it for defense. But that was not the finding at all. It was not addressed in the original study, but a follow-up found the gun likely used in the shooting was not the one kept in that home.
Dangers faced by families in bad neighborhoods who have gang and drug connections to not carry over to the majority of us. It is misleading and dishonest to exclude serious risk factors in these studies.
It had lots of key flaws.
For instance, the rate of gun ownership in homes where somebody was shot was determined by police searches, while the rate in the control homes was based on surveys. You think maybe police searches would find guns just asking people wouldn't?
So we can be very confident that they're understating the rate of gun ownership in the control homes, and that by itself would be enough to invalidate the study.
If you treat the 'study' that prompted the Dickey amendment as an honest attempt to do science, it reads like a textbook example of all the mistakes you could possibly have done. (You hardly got started on the problems with it!)
But if you view it as an utterly dishonest propaganda piece pretending to be science, it all falls into place, and it looks competently done.
The Dickey amendment didn't ban gun "research", and there's a reason for that: Nobody thought they were buying actual research.
Seems like the Centers for Disease Control wants to drop the "Disease" part and just be the Centers for Control.
Any government involvement in "public health" should be limited to highly contagious, communicable diseases and sanitation; all of that can be handled at the state level.
Beyond that, it's personal responsibility.
"Any government involvement in “public health” should be limited to highly contagious, communicable diseases and sanitation; all of that can be handled at the state level."
And even there, there had better be very strong evidence to do so.
If we are talking about an unalienable right, why are we discussing it? You have the right so don't get into a word war that can only be a loser for you.
This is just sloppy pile-on-the-CDC journalism. So the 1993 study was flawed. So what? That was 29 years ago. What do we know now? It's an incredibly complex issue. There are hundreds of variables to be taken into account. It is silly to just compare gun ownership to violence in some statistical way, but it is a start. There are many more ways we need to model reality to get a handle on the relationship between guns and violence.
Critics just want to throw the CDC under the bus because that's the hot thing to do now. It gives them emotional salience that they can then make it rub off on gun views in general. That's politically and epistemologically suspect. The baseline view that would be interesting to study is a society where guns are severly easy to acquire. A society where only your salary and assets limit the amount of guns you can purchase. Where only your time constraints and transportation issues limit how easily you can go out and buy a gun. Is a society like that better off than a society with limitations? And if not, what mix of limitations is best?
But do you ever feel like journalists are pitting unrestricted access against total and complete limitations? It's like the capitalism vs socialism debate. The vast majority of us are for a mixed economy but the propagandists in the media and government want to put us on one side of the debate and make us fight. A lot of people are profitting off of the conflict. That's stupid. We are all for gun control in some respect. Only the most severe nutjob wants unrestricted guns. That would mean only rich people would have huge stockpiles to dole out. Kids would have access to guns and so on. But sure, I suppose some people have been manipulated by the propagandists into believing this is good, just as some have been led to believe we should haveabsolutely no government involvement in the economy and some feel that all property should be communal. Those are extremes that very few believe in and yet the media wants us to think most of us think that way.
" It is silly to just compare gun ownership to violence in some statistical way, but it is a start. "
It's a silly start, because, yes, the causation is so complex, and the data inherently so limited, that demonstrating causation is a basically impossible task. Even if there's a real relationship there, you're never going to find it, it's so buried in the noise and complexity.
It's an impossible task people only undertake in order to make excuses for attacking a civil liberty, which is why there's no basis for extending any tolerance for this silly exercise.
The Dickey amendment didn't forbid firearms research. It simply stated that, “none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Center for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”
The CDC reacted to it by ceasing to do research on guns because they had no interest in doing genuine research concerning guns. They were only interested in doing what they had done: Spending money buying anti-gun propaganda that pretended to be research.
Which is why they spent money on the 'research' discussed above, though it was a steaming heap: They WANTED steaming heaps. They were buying propaganda pieces, not research.
"This is just sloppy pile-on-the-CDC journalism. So the 1993 study was flawed. So what? That was 29 years ago..."
It's still being cited, steaming pile of lefty shit.
I didn't read every word of the article, but skimming through it I also did not see ANY mention of "murders which did NOT happen because someone was armed." This would blow the whole premise out of the water, because NONE of these "prevention events" would happen in a home without guns. This is yet another way in which activists lie about gun statistics - and we know for certain that there are orders of magnitude more crimes stopped in their tracks by legal gun owners than are ever reported.
Basically, the anti gun activists are wrong on virtually every count, and so lie to push their agenda.
If guns made poeple less safe, there would be a lot more dead people. And,
AR15s are innocuous.
Joe Biden's policies are a public health issue.
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