Italy's Return to Fascism?
Watch a recording of the livestream with Jonah Goldberg, Nick Gillespie, and Zach Weissmueller.
Reason's Zach Weissmueller and Nick Gillespie spoke with Jonah Goldberg of The Dispatch about the recent election in Italy, which saw the ascendance of the Brothers of Italy party to power and likely paves to way for Italy's first female prime minister, Giorgia Meloni.
The reaction has been swift and severe. Some commentators have characterized this as the return of fascism to Italy, pointing to past associations and political imagery as evidence that neo-fascists are now in charge. On the other hand, some American conservatives have said the rhetoric is over the top and that the Left is just throwing around the term fascist to discredit a political movement they don't like.
Goldberg published a best-seller on this very topic called Liberal Fascism in 2008 and become known as a persistent critic of the brand of right-wing populism that Trump brought into the Republican Party and which is taking hold in many places in Europe, such as Italy, Hungary, and Sweden.
Watch the full discussion above.
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"The reaction has been swift and severe. Some commentators have characterized this as the return of fascism to Italy, pointing to past associations and political imagery as evidence that neo-fascists are now in charge."
Ironically, these leftists do not seem to get how their preferred parties have identical issues.
Apparently, being a woman is fascist now. Who knew?
The modern progressive elites are a combination of political fascism and social cultural Marxism. This is why they are a unique threat to liberty that must be addressed.
That is not a 'unique threat' - it's all the same thing.
'cultural marxism'
Jacinda Ardern is more fascist.
The wokenazi party calling everyone opposed to absolute totalatarian rule fascists somehow fails to impress me.
>>Some commentators have characterized this as the return of fascism to Italy
who? also, Goldberg spent his credibility.
who?
The same people demanding internal passports, mandatory clothing, and cooperation between the government and large corporations to shut down speech they don't like.
Oh, and they also encourage political violence and cheer the use of state power to persecute dissidents.
ya ya was hoping for names to be named ... by the jornolists whose job it is
Give it a rest.
I don’t think Mussolini was really a supporter of the traditional family.
He was a proud polyamorist – that's so brave!
Meloni is about "God, Country, Family". Wrong. She will prove to be a "new gender roles" feminist. All power to the single mother and the female soldier.
Well in that case, she needs to have her bare bottom spanked. Hard.
As a left-libertarian, I agree with our progressive #Resistance allies' definition of FASCISM: the implementation of any policy that the modern Democratic Party doesn't like.
Enforcing a national border, therefore, is FASCIST.
#LibertariansForAntifa
This would get more traction, but the ever increasing rig count has caused such a boom that most people could care less.
That’s why gasoline prices have dropped to below those in 2020.
After inflation.
/s
"That’s why gasoline prices have dropped to below those in 2020."
Biden is quickly depleting the strategic oil reserves - down by a third already. Biden being down in the polls is NOT an emergency.
And yet, Reason once again misses the real fascists in our midst: those we see on the left restricting free speech and trying to create their own utopia.
Reason is 100% pro progressive totalitarianism
And in other news, water is indeed wet.
Can you quit with the already disproven rhetoric? Crawl in a bath and slit your wrist you clown
And right on schedule the board pedophile shows up.
Italy's Return to Fascism?
Who cares? Are they really any worse than everyone else who has their hat in the ring?
As nearly as I can tell, the "fascists" want pretty much the same thing as most social conservatives want, the distinction being that while conservatives are averse to using state power to achieve those ends, the fascists have no such compunction.
Given that the conservatives are facing an opponent that's more than happy to use state power to roll right over them, I'd say the fascists have the more realistic assessment of the situation.
Anyway, I have a hard time accepting that a bunch of people who apparently just want to live an orderly life among people like themselves, go to church and raise children like their parents and grandparents were able to do, are the bad guys. Especially when the criticism is coming from the assholes who cheered as almost every social pathology known to man has been ushered into the public square and "celebrated".
There are things worse than fascists, and as long as you insist on being one of them, expect fascists to keep getting winning elections.
"On the other hand, some American conservatives have said the rhetoric is over the top and that the Left is just throwing around the term fascist to discredit a political movement they don't like."
Or, the Left is using the word fascist for other when it's actually actively being fascist. Remember, the Inviolable law of leftists: confession by projection.
If reason interviewed James Lindsay it would... Hahaha I kid myself, why would reason bring on someone who opposes globalist totalitarianism
Here's what Giorgia Meloni's political opponent, left-wing former Prime Minister Matteo Renzi, has to say about the American media calling her fascist:
“Personally I was against Georgia Meloni. I’m not her best friend. We are rivals but she is not a danger to democracy. The idea there is a risk of fascism in Italy is absolutely fake news.”
Yeah but she's a Christian mom who doesn't support the LGBTQ "rights" that are in actuality just an infringement on others peoples' rights. So, clearly fascist.
I am too and if you take that as infringement, I do not care
You (should) know you've fucked up when the Italian is like "Whoa that escalated quickly."
As stated by Mussolini himself: "Fascism is the union of corporate and government power".
I can find no reference that the "right" in Italy wants that.
As stated by Mussolini himself: “Fascism is the union of corporate and government power”.
That pretty much describes the government of every major nation on earth, with varying degrees of formality.
“Fascism is the union of corporate and government power”
Sounds oddly like democratic socialism.
As stated by Mussolini himself: “Fascism is the union of corporate and government power”
Giovanni Gentile said it, about 10 years before Mussolini's rise to power.
Even with all that, I doubt 'right' in Italy means anyting but not "left" -- and neither translates to American terms. All sloppy non-thinking facilitated by abuse of the meaning of words
Mussolini summed up fascism as "All within the state; nothing outside the state; nothing against the state."
No, I don't see Italy returning to fascism.
Something something rule of headlines.
You'll own nothing and be happy isn't fascist at all.
Well, to be fair, it’s a little more Marxist… except of course the fact that it’ll be Trillion dollar corporations intertwined with the WEF and UN that will own everything and lease it to you. Those corporations of course, remaining in private hands will be operating within the scope of state-sanctioned goals.
So yeah, pretty much full fascism. Carry on.
Reason shills for all of that and more every chance it gets. But it thinks everyone else is fascist
Not fascist: "Eat bugs, own nothing and be happy".
Fascist extremist: "We are here to say we are not numbers. We will defend the value of the human person – of each single human person – because each of us has a unique genetic code that is unrepeatable and it is sacred."
You see there was this switch that happened.
Democracy: wanting to increase the power of the state in all aspects of life.
Fascism: wanting to return the power of government literally to the people.
Shrike 3:16
Mussolini HATED returning power to the people
“Democracy is a kingless regime infested by many kings who are sometimes more exclusive, tyrannical and destructive than one, even if he be a tyrant.”
And Gillespie in particular does not understand what she is getting at or outright does not agree with it. I expect this is because he is enamored of the postmodernist idea of a completely plastic sense of identity and is scared of people who reject it.
Oh, Gillespie completely understood her. He may be mendacious, but he's not a total idiot. This story was written because his corporate masters deemed it necessary. The anti-Melloni message is all over the front pages of the coordinated MSM right now.
FYI, the forward thinking PM of New Zealand gave one of THE most terrifying speeches in the Western World. Perhaps we might get some deep analysis on that next week.
Here's the specific clip.
Glenn Greenwald had a good statement on Arden's UN speech:
“This is the face of authoritarianism – even though it looks different than you were taught to expect. And it’s the mindset of tyrants everywhere:
This is someone so inebriated by her sense of righteousness and superiority that she views dissent as an evil too dangerous to allow:”
Greenwald nailed it. Truly the face of authoritarianism. It won't be big brother we'll have over us, it will be big sister.
Now someone shove a feed bag over her muzzle.
Local story
But she is of Left, which is by definition not scary to libertarians, unlike the Right.
Watch a recording of the livestream with Jonah Goldberg, Nick Gillespie, and Zach Weissmueller.
Not even if you paid me.
I don't know why everybody is panicking over the thought of fascism returning to Italy, you could look it up on Wikipedia real quick and see how Italy dealt with the last fascist they had in charge. (Hint: It did not end well for him.) Italy is quite capable of dealing with fascists. What have you done about the fascists in our midst? Besides vote for them, I mean.
This is getting fucking sinister:
Pres. Biden raised threats to global democracy last night -- pointing to Italy.
“You just saw what’s happened in Italy in that election. You’re seeing what’s happening around the world. The reason I bother to say that is you can’t be sanguine about what’s happening here either”
Funny how people being elected is a threat to democracy.
Hmmm - who else has been elected only to become a threat to democracy ?
Matt Taibbi has a video.
https://youtu.be/uoMfIkz7v6s
Man, that's beautiful. Almost five full minutes of Democrats claiming 2016 was stolen and had Russian influence with no repeat clips.
Hugo Chavez?
Then you would have loved Ferguson Missouri. It was healing from the riots until Eric Holder came in and it went to Hell. Then it got better and the people elected a new mayor. And outsiders said "But you can't elect a white mayor" and it went to Hell.
Result: the people who had the bucks got out and Holder and the others got the Hell that really wanted.
White leftists are the worst kind of filth.
Vote everyone out.
Between Biden's words, the NZ PM's UN speech about free speech being a problem, and the EU's threats about retribution for Italy voting the "wrong way", there is a disturbing trend on the Left that any dissent from their ideology is an existential threat to "democracy" and must be suppressed. This attitude will end badly for us all.
Since this came from the rancid brain of Joe Obiden, I take it no more seriously than something out of Joy Behar's mouth.
I correct myself. The statement did not issue forth from dementia Joe's brain but from the little Marxist brains of his staff.
Broke down and watched it.
Started off good with Goldberg accurately describing historical fascism, then Weissmueller plays her speech.
Then from 25:00 to 30:00 Gillespie embarks on a campaign of gaslighting and lying about what she just said. He creates a whole pile of implication, inference, assumption and innuendo and Is Very Concerned. It was one of the worst things I've seen him do. You could even kind of tell he didn't believe what he was saying himself.
I'm not sure if I'll go on.
30:00 -35:00 Jonah (with Nick and Zach barking approval) pretends that Agenda 2030 and ESG isn't a thing and that Meloni is alluding to c0nsPiRAcY tHeoriES like a dirty dogwhistle fascist.
I give up. I'm not wasting my time with three clowns who think that their listeners are easily tricked contemptible idiots.
Goldberg is just pathetic.
Same guy who wrote Liberal Fascism?
TDS has pickled his brain.
Goldberg has always been a lazy opportunist and LF contains little if any original thought.
Thanks for taking one for the team.
Goldberg is all over the map on this. At 1:15:00 he starts saying how bad it is the CEOs and actors have to inject their political opinion on everything instead of "staying in their lanes". Which, I suspect is part of what Meloni is getting at.
You suspect? When will you know 🙂
You know who else tried to return Italy to fascism?
Benito?
Good thing Italy was already past the deadline for returns.
LOL!!! WTF
Reason you are embarrassing yourselves.
Fascism: A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
Not what she is espousing not even close.
And that's not the definition of fascism. You can have fascism without a dictator, and without racism. You do need government control over the means of production however. That means corporatism as Mussolini defined it. The US Health Care sector is fascist, for example, while the Public Schools are socialist. And the fasces symbology basically implies nationalism. The nation as one being unified of will, that's nationalism.
So while she is not advocating for a dictatorship, Meloni is espousing a form of nationalism and corporatist control over the economy.
You know the fasces symbol is in our own country’s symbols, right?
The assumption is that it’s fascist to use social programs to promote traditional families – the criticism comes from those who want social programs which *oppose* traditional families.
Libertarian neutrality on social issues is cute but doesn’t factor in this battle.
So it's not as if there's a bunch of freedom-denying fascists fighting the defenders of liberty.
Libertarians are not neutral on social issues. They are generally sympathetic with the Progressives.
You got it wrong. Libertarians are hunky dory with social issues that don't involve harming other people. So smoke dope if you want, just don't pass out in my driveway. Or the gutter which is public property and needs to be privatized anyway. But progressive are for those social issues that DO involve harming other people. Let the cultural identity of the homeless shitting on sidewalks (both public and private). Likewise, libertarians want stuff to be voluntary and not forcibly paid for by others, but progressives want everything to be paid for by the state.
In terms of Kulturwar, the Kulturwarriors can't see the difference. And the Only Two Tribes Pick One people can't see the difference either. But there is universe of difference between libertarians and progressives.
Correct: libertarianism is not about being neutral on social issues, it's about opposing government intervening in social issues. Most libertarians have strong opinions on the morality of social issues.
Progressive ideas and libertarian ideas are irreconcilable: either the state intervenes in order to shape society (progressives) or the state doesn't (libertarian).
Libertarians simply believe that many things ought to be legal even if they are immoral and/or harmful (as long as they are victimless); that the state does not need to punish harmful conduct because it punishes itself.
So, for example, libertarians don't believe that drugs should be legal because they are good, libertarians believe that drugs should be legal because the consequences of taking harmful drugs are their own punishment.
Except no one seems capable of living with the consequences of others doing drugs, hence why even common libertarians can’t figure out when to leave people to the mess they made or bail them out with some welfare program.
Progressive ideas and libertarian ideas are irreconcilable: either the state intervenes in order to shape society (progressives) or the state doesn’t (libertarian).
You could make the same argument for conservatives who believe government has a role to play in fostering a particular moral culture through legislative intervention. The paleos usually defend them by claiming right-wing social engineering is more hospitable to libertarian thinking generally.
Libertarians can have very different ideas about the direction civil society should go. As long as they seek to realize their vision by persuasion and cooperation, unwilling to trample the individual rights of others to force compliance, not by ad baculum coercion or the dispensing of legal privileges, then they are free to be as conservative or progressive as they like, without contradiction.
Right-libertarians and left-libertarians disagree over certain applications of individual rights, such as an equal natural right to access the earth and physical space (Austrolibertarians, no; geolibertarians, yes), resulting in perhaps radically different societies were their theories implemented consistently, but both wings are "libertarian" in the strict sense.
Wrong on both counts.
Libertarians tend not to include the dregs of society, they are weeded out because they were not born privileged. The Progressives quoted the Bible very often and were -- if deluded --- very religious.
So wrong on both counts
But put that to one side. Your problem is that you don't see that you pre-judge in an (im)moral way what counts as a social problem. So Libertarians for Life would be considered heretics by you.
One popular misconception is that libertarianism as a political principle supports choice on abortion. And major elements within the libertarian movement (the Libertarian Party, for example) take abortion-choice stands. Nonetheless, libertarianism's basic principle is that each of us has the obligation not to aggress against (violate the rights of) anyone else -- for any reason (personal, social, or political), however worthy. That is a clearly pro-life principle. Recognizing that, and seeing the abortion-choice drift within the libertarian movement, Libertarians for Life was founded in 1976 to show why abortion is a wrong under justice, not a right.
If Meloni’s party has historic ties to fascism, then it’s ok to say the Democrat party has ties to slavery and racism
Judge them by their actions and policies, which cannot always can be traced to their histories.
Donkeys are still racist, just using gov against different groups.
Oh, Democrats are really racist in the same way they have always been: Democrats believe whites to be superior, and they believe themselves to have been chosen to uplift other races. Democrats still believe that whites are obligated to sacrifice in order to help other races ("white man's burden"), and they still believe in segregation and race-based policies. And Democrats still hold the same fascist beliefs about wealth and success they held a century ago, while still engaging in the same corruption.
Very little has changed in the racism and corruption of Democrats other than the terminology.
Correct democrat racism has evolved from antagonistic to paternalistic, but they’re still more racist than ever.
In the first half of the 19th century, Democrats were very paternalistic in their racism. The enslavement of Africans was often defended on humanitarian grounds that they needed masters because they were childlike at best and bestial at worst. Whereas even many abolitionists, while arguing that slavery was a heinous institutional evil, believed both that whites were the superior race and blacks didn't belong on American soil---in other words, they were white nationalists. e.g., Some Northern Republicans recoiled in horror that Southern Democrats would allow black hands to prepare their food. The prevailing attitude changed from paternalistic to bitterly antagonistic during the Reconstruction era, when white Republicans used emancipated slaves as political pawns to consolidate their power, and white Democrats felt (and to large extent, were) disenfranchised and economically abused in the postwar South.
And communism.
I was going to say Pam's vagina
Don't forget, both dictators last names began with M.
So there you have it: Meloni is a fascist dictator!
Now Joe Biden can sabotage Italy's economy.
“”Gillespie: “I am accused of being this arch-individualist where you are born without a past and you are not enmeshed in a socio-economic system and you can just do whatever you want. I don’t think that at all.”
That is belied by Gillespie’s critique of the clip of Meloni appealing to “God, country and family” thinking that is inherently authoritarian and anti-individualism. Those things Meloni appeals to define a person’s past and the systems they exist in. Gillespie says it is too constricting for a person to define their identity themselves. Maybe Gillespie can explain it better, but those accusations at him appear to have a legitimate basis.
The knee jerk reaction form the leftist media was to be expected. After all, you can't continue to harp about LGBTQXYZ, drag queens in school or censorship if someone in a leadership position is opposed to that rubbish.
The leftist media is also blaming DeSantis for the hurricane, shamelessly carping away like the mindless morons of the media they are. Democrats have no shame.
As for sister Jacinda and her plan for global censorship, she needs to be returned to the stable from whence she came. As Greenwald stated, that is the face of authoritarianism.
There's your real fascism.
On the other hand, I've run across self-described conservatives praising Meloni simply because she is being called fascist. Possibly knee-jerk contrarianism to pwn the libs? But maybe also just because they agree with her?
It's probably also like Orbán, where everyone here on Commentariat claims no conservative likes him, yet he goes to CPAC where conservative talking heads are praising him.
On the other hand, I’ve run across self-described conservatives praising Meloni simply because she is being called fascist.
Progressives and the press are calling any moderate conservative a “fascist” these days, so, yes: conservatives praise Meloni because she is effectively being called a fellow conservative by the American press.
But maybe also just because they agree with her?
Of course conservatives agree with here: she is a conservative, not a fascist in the actual meaning of the word.
Actual fascists are collectivist, anti-capitalist, statist, and anti-Christian, the very opposite of conservatives. The actual fascists are where they have always been: in the progressive movement and the Democratic party. The actual fascists are people like you.
The fact that a semi-fascist like Biden accuses his opponents of "semi-fascism" is projection and propaganda, it doesn't reflect reality.
I remember lefturds calling every Republican president a fascist at least back to Reagan. If that means that Italy's new PM is like Reagan, I'm fine with that.
-jcr
Just ask them about Libertarians for Life
One popular misconception is that libertarianism as a political principle supports choice on abortion. And major elements within the libertarian movement (the Libertarian Party, for example) take abortion-choice stands. Nonetheless, libertarianism's basic principle is that each of us has the obligation not to aggress against (violate the rights of) anyone else -- for any reason (personal, social, or political), however worthy. That is a clearly pro-life principle. Recognizing that, and seeing the abortion-choice drift within the libertarian movement, Libertarians for Life was founded in 1976 to show why abortion is a wrong under justice, not a right.
From Merriam Websters
Definition of populist
(Entry 1 of 2)
1 : a member of a political party claiming to represent the common people especially, often capitalized : a member of a U.S. political party formed in 1891 primarily to represent agrarian interests and to advocate the free coinage of silver and government control of monopolies
2 : a believer in the rights, wisdom, or virtues of the common people
I have to ask WHATS wrong with being a POPULIST
Because the leftists want the "common" people to submit to THEIR view of the world.
"On the other hand, some American conservatives have said the rhetoric is over the top and that the Left is just throwing around the term fascist to discredit a political movement they don't like."
American libertarians other than TReason.com are saying the same thing.
When liberals don't get their socialist dictatorship they throw the word fascist around. We just saw Joe Biden do that too in the USA.
Did TReason.com mention that little speech?
Italy rebelled against their dictator because they were losing the war, without understanding Fascism. Their violence was ignorant rejection of the result, not the politics that caused it. They started with blind obedience, ended with blind rebellion.
Now they are headed down the same path because they are still ignorant, still putting emotion before reason.
There is a profound irony in you accusing others of ignorance.
That's right. The next thing you know, they'll be sending trans people off to the camps, rounding up the Greens and siding with Russia.
The horrors!
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>"On the other hand, some American conservatives have said the rhetoric is over the top and that the Left is just throwing around the term fascist to discredit a political movement they don't like. "
Hmmmm.. Who to believe.. the people who have called every republican PotUS and other party member, nazis for the last ~50+ years or anyone else??
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