China's Mass Internment of Uighurs Is a 'Modern Cultural Genocide'
Activist Nury Turkel discusses the vast network of camps that may hold over a million Uighurs in western China.
HD DownloadIn western China, there's a growing network of what journalists, former inmates, and the U.S. government are calling "concentration camps"—or what the Chinese government refers to as "vocational training centers." They're believed to hold between 1 and 3 million people, and perhaps as much as one-quarter of the Muslim population of Xinjiang province.
Outside the camps, Xinjiang is described by its Uighur residents as a police state, in which the Chinese government subjects the population to round-the-clock surveillance. Expressions of traditional culture have been criminalized, with the intention of imposing Chinese cultural unity on a multicultural region.
Xinjiang, a region the size of Alaska, is home to 23 million people, 45 percent of whom are Uighurs, a people who identify closely with the culture of central Asia. The remainder are mostly Han Chinese, the majority ethnic group of mainland China.
Government officials initially denied the existence of the camps. Confronted with overwhelming evidence from satellite photography, witness testimonies, and internal communist party documents, Beijing was finally forced to acknowledge their existence.
Officials now say that the camps are necessary to counter Islamic terrorism and quell a violent separatist movement—such as the Uighur riots in 2009 that left 200 mostly Han Chinese dead, and a terror attack by the East Turkistan Islamic Movement in the heart of Tiananmen Square, which killed five people. Party officials describe the training centers as paths out of poverty, designed to teach basic skills like sewing and reading.
Reason's Todd Krainin sat down with Nury Turkel, an attorney, activist, and American of Uighur heritage, to discuss what he considers the greatest humanitarian crisis in the world today.
Produced by Todd Krainin.
"Gathering Stasis" by Blue Dot Sessions is licensed on a creative commons license.
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So maybe we should contract out our border detention?
"Xinjiang, a region the size of Alaska, is home to 23 million people, 45 percent of whom are Uighurs, a people who identify closely with the culture of central Asia."
Obviously, these folks are "invaders," and not REAL Americans.... er.... I mean "Chinese."
Xinjiang has been fought over for thousands of years. It would be more proper to say that the Uighurs are a conquered nation of the Chinese Empire, and not invaders.
Don't confuse useful idiots with reality!
Yes, I am aware of the history of the region. I was using the situation more as an analogy.
This is one of the literal concentration camps that AOC was talking about.
What's that? It's in a communist country. Oh, that's different then.
Yeah but Drumpf's concentration camps are even worse because people are literally forced to drink from toilets.
#AbolishConcentrationCamps
#LibertariansForAOC
"Yeah but Drumpf’s concentration camps are even worse because people are literally forced to drink from toilets."
That's has been proven to be a lie.
But thanks for playing.
Now fuck off.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/satire
And we want to make nice with the Red Chinese? Guess we can add 'cultural genocide' to their serial lying, serial cheating, and serial theft of American IP.
No, idiot. The thesis is that trade helps weaken barriers. As shown by the Cuban, North Korean, and others, embargoes just give regimes a handy plausible excuse for why their economy sucks and why they live in a police state.
Besides which, restricting who I trade is just control freakery of the most base kind, and in this case, doesn't even have the feeble excuse of national security.
When has trade worked? The myth that Reagan opened trade with the USSR leading to it's downfall is just that a myth. Reagan bankrupted them with an arms race. He took a hardline with Brezhnev and was hands off with Gorbachev until he saw they were serious about reforms. Gorbachev had to open his markers because his country was failing.
When has trade worked?
"Worked" in what sense? There hasn't been a war in Europe since trade barriers were dropped. China has gotten less belligerent to the extent that they've opened up trade with the outside world. The differences between South and North Korea have a lot to do with international trade. Our trade with Japan turned us from enemies into friends, as with Germany. The relatively-free-trading countries of West Africa are infinitely better off and more peaceful than the communist dictatorships of Central and East Africa.
And the Soviet Union fell mostly because Communism doesn't work and they could only attempt cultural expansion via force, with an increasingly-poorly-funded military. As a result their attempt at the cultural export of Communism by force paled in comparison to the effortless expansion of Western culture through trade.
By contrast, when have trade restrictions ever solved anything?
There hasn’t been a war in Europe since trade barriers were dropped. Really? I guess Yugoslavia (Serbia, Kosovo, Croatia) don't count. Perhaps you need to amend your sentence.
Tariffs are a foreign policy tool. Do you have a beter suggestion on what foreign policy tool we should use to stop Red Chinese serial lying, cheating and theft of American IP? Don't just sing it....bring it.
I guess Yugoslavia (Serbia, Kosovo, Croatia) don’t count
They were part of the Euro-zone?
Tariffs are a foreign policy tool. Do you have a beter suggestion on what foreign policy tool we should use to stop Red Chinese serial lying, cheating and theft of American IP?
You stole a couple of bases there. How do tariffs address the issue of "lying?" What "cheating," specifically, are you referring to that is being addressed by tariffs? What responsibility do owners of IP have to not trade with people who are stealing it?
"Do you have a better suggestion on what foreign policy tool we should use to stop Red Chinese serial lying, cheating and theft of American IP?"
Sometimes we need to have the humility to acknowledge that we cannot control others... We can only control ourselves!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_China
GDP per capita
Increase $10,153 (nominal; 2019 est.)
USA GDP per capita : 59,531.66 USD (2017)
We are about 6 times as wealthy as they are!!! HOW MUCH MORE per-capita wealth do YOU want to have, compared to the Chinese, before you are willing to be a wee tad less greedy, nationalistic, and selfish? Maybe we should FIGHT a little less, and COOPERATE a wee tad more? And NOT try always to tell others what to do and not do? Be a little less Trump-ish, in other words? I think more cooperation and less competition would be in order here! Trump is flushing the world economy down the crapper, if there's no stop to the trade wars!
"Maybe we should FIGHT a little less, and COOPERATE a wee tad more? And NOT try always to tell others what to do and not do?"
Self awareness eludes you my friend.
When has trade worked?
America vs British, War of 1812, ended because both sides were losing more in trade then they were getting from plunder (simplified answer, its more complicated but a reasonably take).
“In the end we beat them with Levi 501 jeans. Seventy-two years of Communist indoctrination and propaganda was drowned out by a three-ounce Sony Walkman. A huge totalitarian system . . . has been brought to its knees because nobody wants to wear Bulgarian shoes. . . . Now they’re lunch, and we’re number one on the planet.”
PJ O’Rourke
Arguably the greatest force working against communism today is The Avengers.
In 1991 we had the Chili Peppers, Pearl Jam and Nirvana. They had nothing.
We had Mustangs, Challengers, and Firebirds. They had the Trabant and Yugo.
We had McDonalds and KFC. They waited in line for bread.
The USSR never stood a chance.
All because of the miracle of free market capitalism.
And a hard-ass president who would not back down.
Capitalism was as alive as we allow before Reagan.
No theft of American IP. Corporation IP maybe but a lot of that is voluntary tech transfers that people conflate somehow being forced.
Serial lying and cheating - that's what governments do.
Cultural Genocide - call me when its genocide genocide. No, actually this is a good reason for tariffs/sanctions. Now go to Congress and get the peoples' representatives to vote on it because that isn't a national security issue; Death to Tyrants.
Nothing freer than trade with Emperor Xi, as long as Drumpf doesn't impose tariffs.
I hear you can get Uighur kidneys cheap! Muh free market!
Cheap consumer goods > standing for human rights.
You will get better human rights from dictators by freely trading with them. Dictators know that, which is why they breath a sigh of relief every time some leaky embargo comes along.
One example, please?
Chile.
""You will get better human rights from dictators by freely trading with them. "'
This is what was said decades ago when we moved China to a favored nation status. It hasn't worked.
Oh this is fun ....
"Example, please."
Do you think China is better now than it used to be? If not, why not?
Some things better for sure, but they have an emperor now and a surveillance state, so some big things are much worse. And pollution.
An Emperor?! In China?! Oh, how the mighty have fallen, and after such a long history of individualism and democratic participation!
""“Example, please.”""
As one example, I'll let the current Hong Kong protests speak for themselves.
The social credit scoring used to deny people freedoms.
Perhaps you can give some examples of how they expanded human rights over the last 30 years.
Ending the one child policy, allowing limited private ownership of industry, allowing more freedom of movement, allowing a system of stock trading to develop, increased freedom of people to acquire and change jobs, increased international trade, especially as regards imports.
So this is about regime change now. Keep moving the goalposts.
Even Trump does not pretend that.
I'm sure Emperor Xi will be happy to have the Uighurs in his indoctrination camps verify that.
He'll even throw in a free Uighur kidney as a sample of what you can get from "freely" trading with His Imperial Majesty.
Muh free market!
it-a leely nice flee market!!!
Actually you get both. There is not a single instance that can be pointed to where a trade-embargo or trade-war has made a regime loosen its grip. In fact, generally the opposite happens - they crack down more.
The Soviet Union wasn't destroyed by us refusing to engage with them. The Chinese Communists won't be destroyed by us taking a hardline stance with them and refusing to do business - which we're doing with individual Chinese, not the government, two separate entities and libertarians should understand the difference.
We do, but I am pretty sure that the "iLlEgAl iNvAdErS" crowd is not meaningfully libertarian.
Actually, they USSR was defeated because Reagan launched an arms race against Brezhnev that bankrupted the country. Free trade came only after Gorbachev was forced to implement reforms because the country was failing economically. He wasn't really in favor of reforms buy realized it was necessary. It's a myth free trade defeated the Soviets. Free trade was the final straw but their were a ton of other reasons leading up to that moment.
So, if not for the arms race, Communism would have succeeded? There are lots of Communist countries we didn't have arms races with - how are they doing?
No, the arms race greatly accelerated the fall, but Commie governments can hang on a long time if they are willing to viciously oppress their people, e.g. Cuba, China, NoKo. Is we had listened to the Dems in the 80’s the Soviet Union would likely still be with us, and Eastern Europe still commie.
Commie governments can hang on a long time if they are willing to viciously oppress their people, e.g. Cuba, China, NoKo.
They can if they liberalize their economies, yes.
Maybe in part.
I would guess people getting tired of waiting in lines for bread and toilet paper would put some internal pressure.
I would guess people getting tired of waiting in lines for bread and toilet paper would put some internal pressure.
^ This. And how much worse would it be if the people knew the only reason they couldn't get cheap American toilet paper was that their own government wouldn't allow it rather than that the evil Americans withhold it from them?
Money talks, human rights walks.
So, the commies and the islamists are fighting.
And we care why?
There is no winning play here for the US at all. No one who it benefits us to help.
One can support non-interventionism while still thinking that putting Muslims in concentration camps is atrocious. It's really not that hard.
We need Thomas Friedman to tell us how enlightened this policy is. And how being unfettered by pesky democracy makes it so.
Expressions of traditional culture have been criminalized
You know who else would like to criminalize traditional culture?
Boy George?
So this is Bernie's 'free' schooling?
"So maybe we should contact out our border detention?"
Actually it sounds like your plan.
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Considering the ad was bought by the transit authority it seems akin to saying that they were "smart enough" not to swallow whole peanuts and raw corn before shitting themselves in public.
This may be a terrible thing the Chinese are doing to the Muslims, but they are Muslims so it's easier to rationalize. Muslims go around blowing people up and if these aren't those kind of Muslims, well, close enough. Kinda like me eating meat - I'm pretty sure a cow would eat me if it got the chance and if that's an ignorant statement I'm not interested in learning the truth. I'm pretty sure both Communists and Muslims would cheerfully kill me if they got the chance so I'll just sit quietly over here with my cheeseburger and hope neither side notices me.
We've spent a lot of blood and treasure defending Muslims over the past few decades. Something I occasionally have to point out to some rightwing friends that ironically supported our efforts to do just that.
And those Afghani Muslims are eternally grateful. Someone never did something to hurt us.
Afghani is a currency. Afghan is the correct term for a person or a dog.
"China's Mass Internment of Uighurs Is a 'Modern Cultural Genocide'"
I'm jealous.
I wish the Union of Soviet Socialist Slave States of America had a mass internment for all the counter-revolutionaries here.
Then we could would be the envy of the totalitarian world.
Patience, weed hopper, patience. All in good time and probably sooner than you think.
And I'd be watching what I thinked if I were you.
Confucius say: "Man who practice Islam in China get called a wigger."
Es increible que esto pueda pasar, lei esto en mi trabajo de limpieza de pisos en Chiclana de la Frontera y sigo sin creerlo
Yeah, playing free trade with a bunch of people who don't believe in our cultural conceptions of freedom sure will work wonders. Let's just keep financing Muslim genocide and get the Chinese to admit some "reforms" that they're mocking once we stop looking.
They look white. Isn't it all RACIST?
Are you saying Pinochet wasn't a dictator, or that Chile has grown less free and increasingly warlike?
Do try to keep up. The question at hand was whether an example could be given where a dictatorship situation improved via trade rather than sanctions. The first thing that popped into my mind was Chile.
If your head weren't in your ass, you would realize that this was not advocacy for Pinochet-style dictatorship. This was pointing out, in response to a direct question, that Chile is an example of a sucky dictatorship that got better due to free trade.
Do you have an example of a sucky dictatorship that got better due to trade restrictions?
Because I have more: Ghana, Nigeria, Algeria, India, Tunisia, Singapore, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, pretty much any country in Eastern Europe.
Still pretty much working off the top of my head here. Shall I go on? Somehow I think you probably still don't see my point.
The average boots-on-the-ground chink
Oh, I see. You're racist-tuff-gai guy. You think China of today is more totalitarian that it was 50 years ago?
What you're talking about it - you don't know.
You fucking morons assured that China was a fully liberalized good standing member of the international community because you wanted shit and you don’t give the tiniest fraction of a fuck about totalitarianism and death camps.
What in living fuck are you talking about?
The average boots-on-the-ground chink can afford better food and more consumer electronics.
Which is to say, he and his family aren't literally starving to death. But hey, tomato tomahto.
You really are spectacularly ignorant.
Is Ghana still communist? Is Hungary? Is Syria? Is India? Is Vietnam?
Where are all these thriving totalitarian communist governments, and what's the secret to their success?
You don't know anything at all about Soviet history or how the fall of the USSR actually happened, do you?
""And the reason the people didn’t revolt during the first 50 years of bread lines was, what, just bad timing?"'
Great, now do East Berlin.
There is no separation of commercial and government interests. The central party owns the means of production.
Yes, there is, and no, they don't.
This is where you show what an ignorant fuckstick you are and that you haven't the foggiest idea what you're talking about.
Okay, so what you're telling me is that you have no idea what I'm talking about when I say "since trade barriers were dropped."
I'm guessing you're too young to be familiar with the phrase "Iron Curtain" and what it referred to.
Given your level of extreme historical ignorance, a touch of humility would suit you.
Did you forget what the topic of conversation was? Because it seems like you forgot what the topic of conversation was.
See since we never implemented sanctions against Chile and officially propped up the Pinochet regime though, there’s no counter-factual about how it would have turned out otherwise.
There are other dictatorships that we did sanction. Like Cuba, North Korea, and Iran. How are those going?
Do you see how the conversation is revolving around the difference between countries that have been subjected to economic sanctions and those that have not?
Ghana, Nigeria and Algeria are all basket cases as well.
By what metrics? They are all peaceful countries that have the highest standards of living in Africa. Cost-of-living in Lagos is comparable to any Western city.
You’re really putting together a sterling case for “gibbe the cheap labor boss”.
Do you remember what this conversation is about? Because it doesn't seem like you remember what this conversation is about.
I genuinely and truly hope you die in the same manner as all of the dissidents whose memory you betray with your pathetic apologia for totalitarian communism. You are so far beneath contempt that I would happily kill you myself without even a hint of moral compunction.
Wow. You really are a piece of work.
More? Not really. Less? Absolutely not. That’s a PR campaign from the central party.
Really? And you know this how? Have you ever met any Chinese people?
I’m talking about communist apologists like you
?? The guy who's arguing that communism is doomed to failure while you assert that it's unstoppable and just keeps getting stronger and stronger? But wait - you also accused me of wanting a Pinochet-style dictatorship.
You seem very confused, and more than a little bit angry.
Do you even know what you're disagreeing with me about? Because it seems like you just want to yell at people, and that you don't actually know anything about any of the things you're talking about. Like, any of them at all.
Less? Absolutely not.
China's a shitty place, but if you really think that what's going on today compares to life under Mao then you need to open a book.
You are so far beneath contempt that I would happily kill you myself without even a hint of moral compunction.
That's an awful lot of anger over a point that you don't even understand.
fully deserving of respect and prestige on the international stage
Yeah, nobody said this.
Actually, from what I've heard, the trains in China aren't particularly reliable.
Do you have a point you're making? Did you even stop for half of a second to think about what point I was making?
Syria and India are absolutely communist
I think you're going to have to define "communist." I personally can't think of a definition that would even tangentially apply to either Syria or India.
And then you go on to assert that if I'm not going to accept that China is communist, then there aren't any communist countries in the world.
Did you forget what you were arguing? Because it seems like you forgot what you were arguing.
Your next argument when we get into North Korea is going to be that real communist hasn’t been tried until you run out of NPC scripts.
I already said something about North Korea that had to do with their status as a communist dictatorship that has been living under a regime of sanctions.
Do you remember what that was? Because we were having a discussion about something to do with sanctions and communist dictators, but in your zeal to frame me as a communist apologist I think you've forgotten what that was.
You’re the one arguing that pissed off consumers caused the downfall of the Soviet Union.
And I'm sure that you can point to where I said that.
Go ahead and explain why that happened by pure coincidence while America was increasing rather than decreasing hostilities toward the USSR in the 1980s when those conditions existed in the USSR since its very fucking inception?
When was the period when we weren't increasing hostilities against the USSR "since its very fucking inception?"
Did you know that the CIA reported in the early 1970s that the Soviet economy was collapsing under the weight of communism and that Donald Rumsfeld suppressed the report in order to continue selling weapons to the US after he got out of office?
What is it about the collapse of the USSR that you think happened "all of a sudden?"
There exists no private industry in China. Repeat. There. Exists. No. Private. Industry. In. China.
And all the corporations listed on the Shanghai and Shenzen Stock Exchanges are __________?
You think that war was to save the Muslims?
You are painfully naive.
Could you remind me where I said anything like that? I can't seem to find any statements to that effect. Weird!
There's only one person losing their composure in this thread, and it ain't Vic.
Allende was the rising dictator, Pinochet was the restoration. Franco was a dictator to the end, we traded with him. Not only is Erdogan a dictator we trade with he's also in NATO.